The beginning of it all
 

According to Judaism, how did creation begin? Is it the same story as in what Christians call the Old Testament? Did G-d create light and then Eden and then Man/Woman?

Did Man & Woman actually fall from grace according to Judaism? Is humanity considered to be 'fallen'? Do we need to restore our perfection and grace, as it is in Christianity?

I'm confused by the apparent discrepancy between Judaism and the Christian Old Testament. What are the differences?

This is a great post I have been wondering the same thing for awhile now.
I think that as for the creation question it is pretty close to the OT, but interpretation is different. I think that much of the Christian interpretation of Judaic text are flawed.

I do think, but I am not for sure but the whole interpretation of Adam/Eve and the fall are not the same. I do know that Judaism does not believe in a hell and Satan is so different in Judaism as compared to Christianity.

The messiah in Judaism is a physical leader/king not a savior concept as portrayed in Christian doctrine. In Judaism man can reconnect with G-d by simply changing their lives in such a way as to follow the laws of Torah and participating in helping others. I am not Jewish so these comments are from what I have researched so I am sure there are more differences and I hope others will help clarify the differences because I too would like to know. :rolleyes: :smile:

nightowl

Thankyou nightowl. That was very helpful.

Working with a dead computer is no fun and so I am behind in my responses, public and private, for which I apologize. And now, with Pesach (Passover) about to begin, I won't have the opportunity to post for a bit.

Therefore, to be brief, and in response to your first question, the Old Testament and the Tanakh are the same, some books being ordered differently. For example, the Tanakh ends with Chronicles, the OT with Malachi.

Your other questions can't be answered with a simple yes or no and terms need to be defined. I will have to get back to you.

B'shalom,

Peter

Thankyou Peter. I look forward to your reply.

Welcome back RabbiO!

Genesis 2, written by the Jahwist (J), is the oldest account of creation in the Jewish tradition. Genesis 1, written by the Priestly source (P), is a refined account.


Rashi's commentary on Bere**** (Genesis) should be of immense value to you.

You have to remember Honza, the OT is a jewish book written OFR jewish people, not the whole wide world. It wasnt talking abotu humanity as a whole, just the jews, and romans, and a few odd other civs around at the time...

There is no worl wide paradigm in the bible, we only think there is

I find this very interesting. Might you elaborate? :smile:

Me too. I'm pretty sure the Bible was written with a world wide paradigm in mind.

is that what all religions aspire to?

On Rashi and Beresh*t (Genesis)...re: avenger, it's a good starting place...thanks for that...

My post is just background...I leave the big questions raised in the OP to the Rabbi...or to another time at least....

Here are a few things that point to Rashi's overall perspective, which is that the Torah's raison d'etre is [forgive my generalisation] to deal with humanity's raison d'etre, which is to know God and ourselves and to realise our potential in various ways, through our awareness and our actions, etc. (study, prayer, mitzvot etc).


http://www.myjewishlearning.com/hist...om/Rashi.shtml

And here is a Masorti commentary...on what Rashi notes the Torah does not focus on...
http://www.byfi.org/news/?q=node/73

and another very nice one on the nature of humankind...which I think also relates to the purpose of the Torah for Jews...or, you could say, the original purpose of the Torah, which Jews

http://www.ou.org/torah/ti/5766/bere****66.htm

I'd like to offer a different perspective..why must we accept the Bible, the Torah, any ancient text and not Gnostic texts such as the Gospel of Judas? The fact that many people believe (or forced to believe in Christianity) doesn't guarantee it's correct. I look at God's creation, Nature and see Logic everywhere except humans. Bible says God created us in his own image. The God is not perfect. And if he is allmighty indeed, why didn't He make us perfect in the first place ? Why did He created Satan (a name nowhere to be found in the BIble) didn't He know he would betray Him ? It doesn't make sense, and the Church could never provide a satisfactory answer except "God works in mysterious ways". I can think of an alternative theory : There was indeed a battle in Heaven. Good versus Evil. And you know? God lost. What we experience is a universe made by the Deceiver, giving us false hope because he get his kicks watching us struggle in vain all our lives believing in false salvation, stumble and fall, get up again believing in his lies. He even sends his demons disguised as angels to give us courage so we don't give up and spoil his party....a theory but we can't prove it's wrong....right ?

Sory this mustve gotten buried for me....

I was speaking in terms of the original books being written tos et the jewish people apart from their occupiers, ie babylonians and assyrians. Every major civilization at that time had a polytheistic tradiction, that being more then one god. The jewish people wanted to be seperate. Circumscision to regonize the follwers of the faith, one god, them being chosen to get to the "promised land", it all fits with a civ trying to break apart form the typical society.

The books werent written by anyone else, besides jewish people. The greeks copied those texts, they werent written by them.

FYI the satan isnt the devil. Satan was gods helper to test the peoples faith in god. A story which is mirrored when jesus was tested by satan, just mis interpreted as the devil. Satan was doing work, FOR god well after this battle between heaven and hell happened. IF your refering to revalations, the odds are it was refering to ROMANS, not the world, because at the time the stories of the NT were written, The middle east was occupied by rome. Once again, a jewish theme.

All of the people int he bible are jewish. The word messiah, or as we now say it Messiah, is jewish, circumscision is jewish, so is honoring the sabbath of sunday. They are jewish rules. It was never intended with a world veiw in mind. All religions are, are old interpretations on how they veiwed, and observed life to work. Each culture is different, so each culture had different interpretations, but its still trying to interepet the same earth, the same sky, the same starts, water,people and the like.

Even someone who was an early christian, liek paul the martyr, said to a roman court " we think of jesus, as you think of the sons of jupiter (loose)", it isnt even an "original" faith.

"trying to interepet the same earth, the same sky, the same starts, water,people and the like" Jesus said "You are Gods" what did he mean by that i wonder....maybe what Ghandhi said about all living things being a part of what we call God, little drops of water forming an ocean, or individual cells that form an organism greater than any of its parts although the cells are never aware of it ? I don't claim to be wise or anything, far from it, just wondering, sorry if i'm off topic !

Sea,

I appreciate your jumping in to comment, but I think your comments might best be posted on a different sub-forum. Not that the Judaism sub-forum is limited only to Jews, but you raise questions that have no meaning in Judaism. The Gnostic gospels, as well as other Gnostic writings, are a Christian concern. Jews have no horse in the race, so to speak, in regard to what writings were made part of the Christian canon.
There is no concept of a demiurge in Judaism.

Although the idea of fallen angels gained some currency in Judaism during the second Temple period, witness for example the Book of Enoch, that idea was more a part of folk religion than an accepted part of mainstream Judaism. In other words, Satan is the job title of an angel whose responsibility is, as some put it, to act as the heavenly prosecutor. It is not that G-d did not know that the Satan would betray Him. There was no betrayal.

You also posit that G-d is not perfect since Torah says we are made in the image and likeness of G-d and we are not perfect. You also ask if G-d is almighty how come He did not make us perfect. First you are making a presumption that being made in the image and likeness of G-d means that we are in every respect like G-d. Second, you are presuming that G-d meant to create us as perfect, but somehow blew it. I don't why you are presuming either.

B'shalom,

Peter