Is nirvana the end of journey?
 

In buddhism, when a person reaches the state of nirvana, does that mean he is ONE with Source with universe, does that mean it's the end of karmic wheel, and then it's the final state?
If not, what will happen after that?

and, Is there an end to the journey, or never an end?

Only if it smells like teen spirit..

Bada boom tshhhhhhhhhh

**chirp chirp cricket cricket**

Yea, I'll show my self out.

That is a state more open to positive objective state.The journey is still far as I know and never an end.

There are two types of Nirvana Starnight.

Nirvana in this lifetime and nirvana after death ( paranirvana ). Nirvana in this lifetime - physical life continues but the mind is free from negative mental states. Nirvana after death - no further rebirth.

I see...:)
what will happen after the paranirvana?
this is what i m really curious...

will they become ascended masters, angels , or spirit guides, even if they no longer have rebirth?
or will they just be ONE with Source, just pure energy....
or many other possiblities....
what will they be and do?

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/19...er-parinirvana

Different Schools of Buddhism have different interpretations regarding Parinirvana. The above link might help you understand , it is a little complicated :smile:

Someone needs to catalog all the variations of the practically-identical doctrine found in most religions and spiritual philosophies, for the purpose of creating a unified world philosophy for all humanity. It would put an end to all wars and personal arguments, overnight.

Reaching nirvana is the same as self-enlightenment, is the same as higher self, is the same as Holy Spirit, is the same as... etc. And yes, most philosophies: 1. See this as the path of release (being saved, fully-realized, etc.) from the wheel of incarnation; and 2. Also see it as the springboard to other planes of spirit reality, to continued and never-ending spirit growth.

Don't Stop Believin'


:tongue:

This is a very good question!

Because I read the book, "The Disappearance of the Universe"...what I gathered was here were 2 humans
that led many lives...but then when they lived their last one ( we won't talk, here, how they accomplished that)
they became what we would call Ascended Masters...they even came 'here'
to have this book written to help people.
http://www.garyrenard.com/Preview.htm


They were able to appear to this guy Gary Renard and disappear and a few xs instantly transport him to
another city and back...(child's play to them)
See, they understood, as Jesus did, what this place was all about and how it worked...thus, him walking on water and all. :smile:
They not only knew this was all a dream...they were 'outta the dream'....way out...

They explained many things, too many to say here.
My understanding, as Krishna said in the Gita somewhere..we keep our individualization.
On the Other side we have decisions according to our wisdom or soul growth....
if we have become aligned with our Source or Reality....would you want to be a spirit guide following around a human?
Not me. :icon_eek:

My understanding we remain in love and remain serving as an individual in different capacities suited to our understanding...
not becoming some blob melted back into the Godhead like
the metal droplet absorbed by a Terminator. :wink:

But, what do I know...this is according to all the reading I have done.
And it rings true to me.

Afterall, Paramahansa and Yukteswar and Jesus didn't 'disappear into the Light'
never to be seen again...they are alive and well serving the Divine still.

I love this post!!! :thumbsup:

When a person reaches the state of nirvana, it doesn't matter/problem if he is one with Source with universe, or it's the end of karmic wheel, or .... etc. Because the desire/will/want/hope to reach enlightenment, become one with source/universe, end of karmic wheel,... etc, is also a form of suffering. Even the desire/will/want/hope to end suffering, is also a form of suffering.
Understanding suffering need time and not as simple as you think. Many people skip this process and directly to understand/learn emptiness.
Buddhism teach to live/stay in present moment, not future. Understanding suffering is the best start.

In simple words(Zen style),
I don't know, because I haven't reach nirvana/enlightenment. When you reach nirvana/enlightenment, you will know.

I hope you can understand my point :smile:

Here is my take if you don't mind.

There are two aspects to enlightenment. One is clarity and the other is depth.

Many traditions have the goal of reaching clarity/oneness and the end of suffering. Ending the cycle of rebirth and returning to the source/Nirvan. This is the goal of most Yoga traditions and Theravada Buddhism and that of an Arhat.

Reaching oneness is not the end of the cycle of rebirth. It is the end of progress in this life. No more obstructions can be released so the progress of depth is ended. Just look at all of the great masters that have been reborn, they even say so.

A great example of this is Ramana or Neem Karoli Babe. They both had great powers, there silence alone could induce Samadhi in others. If oneness was all the same everyone who reached such a state would have powers. You will notice they don't, or not to the same degrees as the great masters that is because of depth.

Depth is where the Daoist and Mahayana Buddhist pick up. That is where the talk of Immortals and the Rainbow body comes into play. Within Yoga and many other traditions there is only 7 chakras and the belief is once you open all 7 you are done. The truth is opening the 7 chakras is only the beginning. Within Buddhism the creation or the path to the rainbow body is achieved using the practices called The Six Yoga's of Naropa. Techniques like Trecho after one has achieved Rigpa or the Book of the Dead are used help one achieve it after death for example.

The Buddha mentioned there are countless immortals and Buddha's, each of the Divine Beings, Gods etc have achieved the rainbow body or the body of Light that Jesus described.

The Lotus Sutra really goes into this and here is an example of the continued depth explained in more detail by my teacher.

Lotus........................................Jeff
5 - Conscousness......8 - universal human consciousness/layer
.................................. 9 - universal plant and animal consciousness/layer
..................................10 - planetary/galactic Conscousness/layer
..................................11 - multi/parallel dimension consciousness/layer
4 - Time.....................12 - time/layer
3 - Space...................13 - unified "oneness"
..................................14+ - deeper refinement with Various beings/Gods/Immortals
2 - Buddha/Wisdoms..Not really a level/layer, more the Full realization of Heart sutra. Can define or
......................:............... upgrade a Level 3 Space.
1 - Nirvan...................Kind of checking out of it all. Reintegration of Buddhamind and noble wisdoms. Primordial bubble.
0 - Emptiness............."Raw" or primordial emptiness

So the spiritual process is about clarity/oneness and the continued process of depth of becoming a Buddha/Christ or a Bodhisattva or an Immortal etc.. if that is your choice. Some choose to end suffering and return to the source while others want to continue the process with greater depth. That could be becoming an Immortal and doing your own thing or becoming a Bodhisattva and helping others achieve freedom from samsara.

Also of note the above levels are your levels of consciousness, your level of oneness with those things. It is entirely different than traveling the astral planes and talking to Divine Beings, that is separation and far from the same thing. That is level 6, 3rd eye stuff.

Hope this helps,

Tom

I have an extreme amount of difficulty understanding this scale. Does this go from the base physical existence to some spiritual paragonal understanding?

The scale you could say is a chakra level. level 8 would be opening the 8th chakra and achieving the Rainbow body. Leading up to becoming a Buddha and then the last state of returning to Raw Emptiness.

You could say it is ones level of oneness.

According to Mahayana Buddhism a Buddha is a creator of worlds or Universes.

We are each individual mind streams, streams of light that comes from the Dao/primordial emptiness. A Buddha is a being that is able to create a stable bubble within that emptiness for the beings of light to experience and grow. That bubble is where Shakti and Shiva come from. The not second or void and form... silence/emptiness and energy/form.

For instance the current Buddha that everyone is aware of is considered the 6th Buddha within this system. The last Buddha talked about a new turning. A turning is an increase in the spiritual ability of the people. This Buddha brought about a deeper level of spirituality than what was possible before with the Yoga system.

Some would say that Jesus brought about a new turning which is why after him you have tantra really take off with Dzogchen and Kashmir Shiavism.

The deeper you go the greater your degree of oneness with all that is. One way of looking at things is with a nesting doll concept. Each doll is a deeper layer of oneness or of expansion.

Hope this helps.

Incredibly so. I wish to learn more from you.

"Average people, blind with the cataracts of dimwittedness, not only have a heap of defiled, perverted behavior, but even produce proofs and charts about it, and present it as wonderful subject matter."

(from Dancing Moon in the Water, Jigme Lingpa)

Yes i understand the levels, we r actually more than 7 chakras...

so , we came from Dao/ Raw emptiness and we will go back to the same Raw emptiness?
and then?
will the Raw emptiness start to expand into shakti and start a new universe again?

Remind me to stay away from citics like Jigme. Total waste of time.

Sure, here you go, running this is a reminder to stay away from critics like Jigme, because critical thought is a total waste of time to you.

The Dao is really all that is. It is becoming a World Buddha that one creates a stable bubble or universe with all of countless dimensions.

You see even a Buddha still has a I part of him. Giving up that last part he returns to the source. The Dao is all that is and does not expand or contract.

Here is a discription of primordial emptiness:


Primordial emptiness is like a bubbling sea of nothingness, brimming with potential. It can be most easily described in the realization of three components, but each of the component is inseparable. These components are Void, motion (or energy) and potential.

The void is empty with no activity at all. Nothing to perceive and nothing to sense. Like a totally dead sea with no motion. The nature of void can be found going deeper and deeper into meditation. The is a common goal in many traditions. But, it is beyond senses, lights or astral visions. All activity in mind (or universal mind) is dropped such that nothing is left. All perception is gone, such that the mind is still and for all practical purposes, one and everything "ceases".

When the nothingness of void "moves" or changes state, one has "energy". Energy has no true substance as it is only the motion of void, but it gives rise to something to be "perceived". In it's emergence, energy can be guided by "intent". First energy is noticed on a subconscious level, but with greater realization, it can be guided and affected. First in one's body, and later as greater mental obstructions are cleared on a universal level.

When one has fully realized the void and one experiences energy 24/7 in a conscious (controlled) manner, one integrates the two and can notice the "potential". The potential is the pristine clarity (or light) of the void. Or in more modern terms, it is the structure or raw building stuff of mind/universal mind. All that exists or potentially can exist is a transmission of this pristine clarity/light.

When one fully realizes these three components as integrated and inseparable, they have realized ultimate emptiness. One "sees behind" the curtain (of mind) and becomes stabilized in the primordial sea.

Ultimately, void is nothingness, energy is the motion of nothingness, clarity (or light) is the realization of the potential of it all that can be guided by intent.

http://community.livingunbound.net/i...ss-what-is-it/

I have found that people do tend to worry about levels and stages of attainment and that it can become an attachment.

I tend to only talk about things I have experienced or help others experience.

All the best,

Tom

Some people discover something on their own, like Jesus or Buddha, then they seek to tell others about it in pretty simple ways really. Then these people die, and religions are created and become basically businesses. People discover they can earn a living being "religious' teachers, priests religious writers etc. So they build churches and temples, they convince others they are more spiritual than others to get them to donate and join their groups and buy their books, look up to them as authorities etc. They write more and more books "explaining" what the founders really were trying to say and add more and more "spiritual knowledge" to whatever the founders said. Join us and donate 10% of your wages to us! It will make you more spiritual! I will teach you knowledge or give you practices to make you more spiritual!

Religions, of course, offer more than knowledge they have invented. They offer community, a sense of belonging, also they stroke people's egos by making them feel like they are spiritual. So over thousands of years, these groups become intertwined with countries and families and humans are conditioned to believe they belong to one group or another.

So what started with one person discovering something while not being a part of any religion, that was about self inquiry and self awareness, becomes this whole other thing about teachers and authorities, about knowledge and practices, about groups and organized religion. There's a huge difference between the knowledge/message a founder said and the huge body of complex dogma people that came after added to that.

Ehipassiko
 

Is considered one of the traits of the Buddha’s teachings, that you can see for yourself. *All beings are welcome*to put them to the test and see for themselves.

No miracles. *No divine messengers. *No text written in stone.

No coercion, No fanaticism,
No bigotry.


I think this word is important/helpfull for people who are studying or thinking of studying Buddhism...

Jesus was a guru that went around healing people and brought his students to the same levels of realization so that they could also help others.

There are many stories of the Buddha performing siddhis and it was his guru ability to help others that was responsible for the growth of Buddhism. Transmissions are an important part of all of the traditions within Buddhism.

Working with a real guru is a blessing.

I would agree that in some paths the church has taken over the intent and wisdom of the guru. Gurus are hard to find but learning from there teachings and depth of insight is called wisdom. To think you know better and to refuse to learn that which is known is called ignorance.

I would also like ask that you two stay on topic. There is an entire thread of you two already talking about not needing teachers and using quotes from success and wellness sites to prove your points.

That is not what this thread is about.

The topic is if nirvana is the end of the journey. Your post is all about levels of consciousness or dogma that came after Buddha's teachings. The goal is nirvana not memory based knowledge. Experience not concepts. Nirvana is an advanced state of consciousness, but obviously one continues to exist for eternity so the journey continues. It just continues with a transformed consciousness. Your basic answer to the topics question seems to be: No nirvana is not the end.... we must add depth based on these teachings that did not come from Buddha. That right?

By the way, trying to tell others what to post or what the right opinion is, is not on topic!:hug3:

Originally Posted by*jonesboy

I would also like ask that you two stay on topic.


Is that the dreaded ego speaking :D

Practise what one preaches comes to mind.

I am sharing the Buddhas teachings.

Do you not understand what the difference between Hinduism and Buddhism is? I am sharing it with you.

This is the heart of the largest practiced Buddhist tradition Mahayana, which is a part of your tradition Zen :)

I am also sharing with you many teachers experience as well as my one. I shared with you emptiness and you said there was many different types of emptiness :)

This is Buddhism and the path to being a Buddha and then returning to Nirvan.

Buddhist tradition distinguishes between nirvana in this lifetime and nirvana after death. In "nirvana-in-this-lifetime" physical life continues, but with a state of mind that is free from negative mental states, peaceful, happy, and non-reactive. With "nirvana-after-death", paranirvana, the last remains of physical life vanish, and no further rebirth takes place.

Nirvana is the highest aim of the Theravada-tradition. In the Mahayana tradition, the highest goal is Buddhahood, in which there is no abiding in Nirvana, but a Buddha re-enters the world to work for the salvation of all sentient beings.

...The Mahayana (Great Vehicle) tradition envisions an attainment beyond nirvana, namely Buddhahood.[quote 21][note 14] The Hinayana path only leads to one's own liberation, either as sravaka (listener, hearer, or disciple) or as pratyeka-buddha (solitary realizer).[note 15] The Mahayana path aims at a further realization, namely Buddhahood or nonabiding (apratiṣṭhita) nirvana. A Buddha does not dwell in nirvana, but engages actively in enlightened activity to liberate beings for as long as samsara remains.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)

That is exactly what I have been sharing.

Thanks. Im personaly here for energetic growth and being myself. Most critics that speak like that are typically up tight stiffs from what i have seen. At some point its been my experience to see the beauty in the diversity of human personality and behavior. And much of all that criticism goes into the recycling bin.

Not really. You are sharing stuff that people who were born way after Buddha taught. You are teaching stuff from particular Buddhist groups, not from Buddha himself. For example, your "rainbow body" stuff. That is a Tibetan Buddhist concept. The idea is from Dzogchen not Buddha. The idea of a "rainbow body" evolved over several centuries as the belief changed and evolved. It is now part of Vajrayana Buddhism belief. Vajrayana was founded by Indian Mahasiddhas, not Buddha. They subscribe to Buddhist tantric literature.

One person who claimed to have seen the rainbow body was mentioned in a Kunzang Nyingtic Dzogchen meditation manual, the eyewitness described it as "rainbows appearing in the sky at death." Buddha's teachings came from Buddha, not others. But yea you are sharing beliefs from different Buddhist groups. The “rainbow body,” belief is that corpses of highly developed spiritual individuals vanish within days of death. It's similar to the concept of Jesus's body disappearing. I don't think there is any mention of Buddha having a "rainbow body" because the belief came long after Buddha's death. In fact, some early Buddhist texts state that Buddha was cremated.

Quote jonesboy.
"I shared with you emptiness and you said there was many different types of emptiness :) "

Chinese Buddhist say there are 18 types of emptiness, I wonder who it correct.

Ryan I have shared with you the concept of spiritual evolution as well as how teachings have reflected that. One thing you have failed to realize is we each have the potential to be a Buddha and that there have been many Buddhas since the one Buddha you are aware off.

With regard to the Lotus Sutra:

The Lotus Sūtra (Sanskrit: Saddharmapuṇḍarīka Sūtra, literally Sutra on the White Lotus of the Sublime Dharma)[1] is one of the most popular and influential Mahayana sutras and the basis on which the Tiantai, Tendai, Cheontae, and Nichiren schools of Buddhism were established. For many East Asian Buddhists, the Lotus sutra contains the ultimate and complete teaching of the Buddha and the reciting of the text is believed to be very auspicious.[2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Sutra


What comes from maya will return to maya. The rainbow body is not this body if anything it is made up of form, energy it is light.

Kali, Pavarti, the Goddess Tara, Chenrezig and Jesus would be examples of beings of light . Are they all just stories and myths? No they are beings who achieved Buddhahood and the light body.

Yes there are many stories of masters achieving such states and if such powers were not possible the traditions would not last thousands of years nor be the most popular within Buddhism.

Buddhism is about believing in the Buddha, the sangha which is all of the Buddhas, Boddhisattvas etc and the dhrama which is the teachings of said Buddhas.

It is a big mistake to think Buddhism is just about one guy and for example the 4 noble truths.

Excellent, now use what I have shared and compare it to Sunyata and see if it is the same.

For instance I am able to do this because I know there is no difference between you and I. That I am not this form.

Yoga Sutras of Patanjali: http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-33949.htm

3.39 By loosening or letting go of the causes of bondage and attachment, and by following the knowledge of how to go forth into the passages of the mind, there comes the ability to enter into another body.
(bandha karana shaithilyat prachara samvedanat cha chittasya para sharira aveshah)
[Note: In some renditions this is sutra 3.37 or 3.38]

bandha = bondage, attachment
karana = cause
shaithilyat = relaxation, letting go, loosening
prachara = passages, means of going forth, moving through
samvedanat = by knowledge of
cha = and
chittasya = of the consciousness of the mind-field
para = another, other
sharira = body
aveshah = entering into

Entering another body: By loosening or letting go of the causes of bondage and attachment, and by following the knowledge of how to go forth into the passages of the mind, there comes the ability to enter into another body. The advanced yogi may use this power to operate through another body in service of others, such as for guiding sincere students of meditation.

This is really about oneness and is used to help introduce others to deeper levels of silence or to help open chakras.

The opposite of this is merging with divine beings/Yidam deities like the ones I mentioned above. This is considered the most powerful of practices and the method of attaining siddhis.

I shared the above not out if ego but for people to understand the teachings have value, that they hold truths that people can achieve.

There is wisdom that has been passed on for thousands of years with one intention. That of helping people progress along the spiritual path.

I am a big believer in a guru because I have one that changed my life and opened my eyes. That blessed me with the ability to help others. I know what it means to really help someone and it has nothing to do with telling them how to live there life.

It really has nothing to do with spiritual teachings either. The teaching is what helps someone understand what they are experiencing.

All the best,

Tom

I think you actually have two different religions embedded in your question. There is a concept of nirvana from Buddhism and a concept from Hinduism. In the Buddhist context, nirvana refers to the imperturbable stillness of mind after the fires of desire, aversion, and delusion have been finally extinguished. In Hindu philosophy, it is the union with Brahman, the divine ground of existence, and the experience of blissful agelessness.

The Buddhist concept refers to a transformation of consciousness. The Hindu concept is about a union with God. Buddha would never speak of God or "the source." Not because he asserted these things did not exist, but because he wanted people to live without concepts. Buddha wanted people to search for stillness in themselves, not think about god or religious concepts.

"The Source" is a term which came from new age philosophies. It came about basically because many new age people saw religions as causing conflict and violence in the world so they wanted a non-religious word which refers to "god" or our creator.

My subconsciouness feels they r alive too with the Divine Since the Divine is Love and Love is always there.....just like the ACIM tells.
My consciousness reads too many informations books, it has other ideas....

I don't know Source is a new age world, but u r right maybe it is a non-religous word to refer to God or Creator.
and i feel every religion tells some truth, same time with some limitations it seems.

"You see even a Buddha still has a I part of him. Giving up that last part he returns to the source. The Dao is all that is and does not expand or contract."
----If so,it makes me "sad".....why does buddha take a lot efforts to do everything and eventually he goes to nothingness?
we everyone is trying our best every day to live to the fullest and we finally will go to nothingness?

In the http://community.livingunbound.net/ , Jeff and Kevin discussed the emptiness.
Kevin's idea is the emptiness doesnt mean nothing, it means "fullness".with full potential for everything.
Jeff's idea is the emptiness is nothing.the "fullness"is the full conscinesess or universal conscieness so it must go to emptiness finally.
----Their discussion is difficult to fully understand.......
from this discussion Dao means nothingness,
from Dao de Ching(Laozi), Dao means the way of life(love), it embraces everything opens to all.
So...?

still pondering.....

You seem to be mixing Taoism with Buddhism, they are different teachings. The Buddha taught no-thingness which is different from nothingness.

No it's not the Buddha taught Sunyata. Look it up . Also, all the great teachings are saying and pointing to the same thing. Some just go farther than others.

Sunyata is the same as the Dao.

Taoism is Buddhism . All that is going on is LZ shared his teaching, his depth. Just think of it as another tradition within Buddhism.