Antisocial people hidding behind their mask of sanity
 

I know this isn't going to a very light post, but it's good to be informed to be able to detect toxic people who pretends to be your best friend or lover. Someone i know met someone of this kind and hopefully left soon enough.
One thing to know is there is nothing to do except to leave and go no contact with these antisocial people.

that's funny lol I suspect my tf of having some borderline traits and ik I'm trying to be less of a narcissist. was really bad about it years back.

I'd just like to remind people to choose observation over judgment.

You may be dealing with a narcissist, you may also be dealing with someone who has other issues or problems.. Try to observe and understand as oppose to judge and presume.

My ex was a nut, but I observed and understand why. Unfortunately she didn't accept help so the relationship was done. She is a lot better now.

If she'd accepted help back then, it would be safe to say we would still be together. At very least, it would have been a happier time in our lives. Instead of judging, I observed and understood.

Just like its easy to fall into idealizing a version of the perfect soul mate it's also easy to demonize someone and blame them for everything. Imo those articles take things to another extreme. I agree with Vulpecula ...

These article are just pointing out a very real thing. There is no demonizing just explaining what is true but counter intuitive for good hearted people.
These articles talk about high functioning psychopath and very often, the victims of these people are empaths who can stay in an abusive relationship for years because they try to understand the abuser, while don't seeing their are being manipulated.

Vulpecula, understanding is key to relationships and it is my philosophy but there i'm talking about about a different kind of people than your ex.

It's simple really. Go out with people, get to know them before you make any "unwritten" commitment like jumping into the nearest bed.

People always behave themselves in the early days but once those explorations are over they start to revert to their usual selves. It's then that troubles start. And it's the same for both partners in whatever. It takes at least two to make a problem.

If you're going out with someone and find you don't like / don't trust them, ease yourself out of it. Okay it may take discomfort, it may even expose you to danger; it'll certainly be inconvenient if you've come to rely on them, say, financially or sexually - but if you really don't want a lifetime of that person be honest. Break away.

.....

I agree abuse can be insidious and it's a real issue. I also know people are easy to diagnose others with psychopathy etc just because things didn't work out. Some empaths have their own issues (btw how would you define a empath?) and people should also take a look at self and learn what makes them stay in such a relationship.

For sure, you must really know what you're talking about and be sure about it and ask for professional or expert feedback before labelling someone as a narcissist or psychopath.
Often it can take a long time, in some cases many years for victims to realise the depth of abuse they have endured. It's often with the help of internet they realise that their husband or wive was a psychopath or sociopath.
That's why i posted the links in my first post, i'm a little sad they have been removed because they were very good one and written by people who really know in depth this problem. There is a similarity with a cult because the victim don't realise their are being manipulated. And even the entourage don't realize what is going on sadly.

^^ I suppose the links were taken out because barrack-room psychology can be dangerous especially to the vulnerable. They can jump to all kinds of erroneous conclusions. It can worsen their situation. I'm no fan of psychology but even arriving at DSM diagnoses usually entails history taking. which in turn needs specialised questions and a completely impartial report of the answers for analysis.

It's difficult otherwise unless one is mentally stable. Perhaps it was thought that, given the vulnerability of a few members here, it might be better to avoid the material.

I know about abuse but as I was able to insulate myself from it (spiritually) to some extent so got back on an even keel fairly quickly. I mentioned elsewhere I think, that that was the basis of my spiritual interests. Others have not been so lucky. But one way it's affected me is that even a whiff of controlling or overbearing from a guy and he's shown the door. Prevention being better than cure in a relationship, I think.

:smile:

The link was removed because the original poster is a new member and does not have the full forum accessibility to post links yet. Also, for security purposes, we never know what random links entail. That's all. Keep it friendly, folks.

Cloves

It's after reading these kinds of articles my friend intellectually realised there was something wrong with the girl he was friend with. He sometimes felt strange and uncomfortable about her but also she was very charming, funny and was talented at faking being nice and fragile, that why he always tried to understand her and ask if it was him that was the source of the problem. I'm sure my friend is a empath because as an empath myself i can tell with the people i know well if they're empaths.

He then wrote to specialists and they told him the girl was a psychopath or a narcissist with sociopathic traits and told him to go entirely go no contact because even if the abuse and manipulation were covert, they were real, intentional and could be quite dangerous. There was a wonderful energy healer i knew and i presented her to my friend, it took some work to clean the quite strong effects of the abuse.

Surprising - the lack of professionalism. Unless the specialists have personally interviewed the girl they'd be working on a second-hand anecdotal report. I can understand it happening if money changes hands - this sort of thing happens - but it seems unlikely that professionals would do that.

But I meant in general terms about psychology on line. To me it parallels buying prescription only medicine online. You really don't know what you're buying.
People have problems. Often they can't even frame them in a solvable way and it's all too easy to jump to wrong conclusions. Vulnerable people are indeed vulnerable to massage their problems to fit the solution they find, one of the ways their problems might be worsened.

Just a general observation is all. My suspicion of psychology is limitless!!

...

Nothing was paid, no official consultation but advices. And yes, some were more cautious and said "although we can't diagnose on an email basis, she possesses most if not all the traits of a narcissit and i advise you to distance from her... "
As for personally interviewing the girl, it wouldn't have been as simple as that because psychopaths can fool psychologists, therapists and even cheat at psychology test to appear normal.
Dr Robert Hare said even him and the best experts with all the data have been duped a few times by psychopaths.

An interesting topic, and I'm a little surprised to see it in the TF forum. Positively surprised.
I am that kind of person. I don't like the term "psyco/sociopath" because it implies mental illness. A psychopath may or may not also be mentally ill, but lack of empathy (along with the other traits that make up the condition) is not in itself a mental illness. Narcissism, however, is indeed a delusional state, which is often accompanied with psychopathy, that is damaging to the narcissist her/himself. Thankfully I'm not a narcissist tho. This is not the place for trying to educate and define this, and I'd advise we don't dwell on this too much. Just trust that I know what I'm talking about after over 30 years of 1st hand experience and I'm well educated on the topic.

Now, to the issue I want to add to this thread:
In the vast majority of cases, having a close relation with a 'path (I will refer to as "P"), like a romantic one or family, will be to some extent damaging to mental wellbeing at best. And that's the case for me too. Granted that the P is not also a sadist (which unfortunately often is the case), the act of manipulation and casing emotional stress or even violence, is not with any evil intent. It's not personal. It's not coming from hate or a desire to torment. It's neutral. Like pealing an orange, putting up traps to kill pests, buying a piece of meat to cook. When you're not emotionally connected to anyone around you, hurting other humans is like you pulling up a fish with a hook; of course you know on an intellectual level that killing the fish (or any other animal you excuse yourself to eat) is the worst possible fate you could ever bring to that poor living creature, but you don't really care about that because it's not one you empathize with. Well, a P is not much different, we just add one more species (homo sapiens) to the list of animals that we use to improve our own lives. I knew I hurt people, but I never really thought about it beyond what I have to do in order to *appear* like a sweet and humble man, something which is EXTREMELY easy to do. Believe me, you all know Ps without having having a clue. Don't fool yourself into thinking that you could sense or detect that, because you don't (unless the P is very narcissistic/sadistic or of low intelligence).
Now, on the spiritual side, I can't see any reason why a P would be exempt from the spiritual realm. P is a handicap in many ways, I can agree to that, but it's not a mental illness. Saying that a P can't achieve a higher level of conviousness is like saying a person with autism or dyslexia can't. If anything, a spiritual experience can have an ever more profound effect on a P since the appearance of something so meaningful in the midst of a life otherwise mostly barren of anything having any deep sense of meaning or purpose. That is the case for me. Finding my TF is hands down the most profound thing that's ever happened to me. It's been shockingly overwhelming to suddenly be filled with all this new emotional information, having neurological pathways, which were previously virtually never used, flooding with traffic. I find meaning, I find genuine happiness, I find love! All things that were previously only vague concepts in an idyllic dream that I never thought would happen.
A TF connection not only can work with a P, it becomes the most valuable thing ever experienced. And if you know how focused and brutally goal oriented a P can be when the goal is mere pleasure or money, imagine what they will do for true love! It sounds paradoxical, but that's the beauty of it. It's an oasis in a scorching desert, or a flower breaking through the asphalt on a parking lot.

But having said that, it is my advice as a rule of thumb to always get out of any relationship that is abusive. If a P is abusing you, she/he is NOT your TF and she/he does NOT love you.

Why do you think it's not the place to educate and define this ?

Even if you don't like the word, you are saying you're a psychopath Randahl.
I would like to know if your TF is also a ...path, and do the people very close to you know about your psychopathy ?

For the spiritual side, psychopath can surely have spiritual experience but the thing is that they walk on the dark path, left hand path or evil path, i have no doubt about that. People who care about others walk on the right hand path, the light path or angelic path.

On the net i searched the topic and i've read that a forensic psychologist telling that a sociopath can successfully cheat at a psychological test to appear non sociopathic.

This is precisely what evil is, considering others as objects to be manipulated and hurted.

If I may say so, a most pragmatic and insightful view. Psychology is always culturally based. Psychopathy is encouraged, let alone allowed in limited ways in our society particularly in corporate circles. Psychologists avoid involvememt with such things, throwing it off to organisational sociologists!

There's a case in the UK of an Indian company about to close factories that in total would affect the lives of about 50,000 people, some 4.000 directly who would be without jobs, without the means to feed their families or pay their mortgages. But there's the Board out in India in its ivory tower looking at balance sheets, umming and ahhhing and someone says "but we can't make a profit like that." Someone else: "So we might as well throw it to the wall." "Yes, let's" everyone agrees. They probably shrug at 50,000 people's lives under threat.

This is the same kind of thing higher up the hierarchy. It's happening all over. As you say, removed from the personal consequences of their actions.

...

Because I've had that conversation a hundred times with people who are well read on the subject a hundred times. And unless you are a P yourself, and expert in the field, or have a deeper personal experience with it, there's really not any way I will make you understand by with mere text on a screen. Also this is a spiritual/TF forum, not a psychology forum.

No I don't like the word, but in lack of a better one that people understand without me having to define a new term I resort to using "psychopath" even about myself. No my twin is not a P, but she has periods where she gets strong P traits, probably because of her connection with me. No, no one else I know apart from a couple of shrinks know. At least not that I've noticed.

So you mean I have no choice in what path I will take? Are you saying that the path I'll travel will be a dark one regardless of my choises and actions?

I can assure you this is true. If you have good people reading skills, no one is immune to being fooled. Not even trained professional or even other Ps.

Fair enough, by that definition I'm certainly evil. However then you need an even stronger word for when someone goes out of their way and genuinely enjoy hurting others. The way I meant to say it was that the purpose of my actions are not to inflict pain on others, I just don't care about if that happens as a side effect. I would think that "evil" refers to when causing harm is the actual goal of an action. Don't you think there's a difference between killing an animal for food and killing because you enjoy watching it suffer?

Well said. Yes society has indeed created an environment where callousness and disregard for others is rewarded. I'm not for it. I sure wouldn't mind peaceful world where only good deeds were applauded. But that's not the world we live in unfortunately and I'm just playing a game that benefits me according to the current rules. But with the introduction of my beloved Twin into my life, the goal of this game has shifted DRASTICALLY! Money, career, sex are now insignificant in comparison.

Psychology is helpful for spiritual growth. And it is because many people have psychopaths in their entourage without knowing it that it's good to talk about this.


Is there a difference between a sociopath and a psychopath ? Do your girlfriend know you're a P, and did you did things that made her suffer ? Do you really love her, care for her or is it just desire and passion ? I'm not going go into the story of Jodi Arias, Bertrand Canta, Oscar Pistorius, Pablo Picasso but ....
If she has periods where she gets strong P traits while she's not a P, i'm quite sure the relationship she has with you is probably detrimental to her psychological health. Do you know if she's an empath ? It's another topic but i've read that P often choose to date intelligent, kind, handsome, interesting, open hearted people.


Everyone has a choice, and posses freewill. But no one can escape his or her karma. Every intention, thought, emotion, action, speech we had is recorded somewhere in the higher spiritual bodies and everyone must one day face what he or she created.

I agree with you : psychopathy isn't at all an illness but a consequence of choices someone has made in previous and in this life.

If you are really sincere you can choose to walk the light path. It's entirely up to you, humans can be fooled, but not God nor higher beings who guide your path and destiny.

Do you know the destiny of those who walk on the dark or negative path ? They will find themselves in a spiritual negative dimension entirely devoid of love where they are manipulated and subjugated by negatives entity who are more evolved. They will manipulate and subjugate the negative entity who are less spiritually evolved. It's not a very pleasant situation. That's why deep down psychopaths feel a strong anger and rage because they are being manipulated by higher negative entities who consider the P in the same way the P consider other human beings.

So you can always choose the light if you want. It's a personal decision, nobody can do it for you. But you must choose to sincerely care and love others as yourself.

This is more related to Luciferic energies



This is more related to Satanic energies.

I wouldn't mind giving people advice on how to handle stressful situations with a P, or just simply give some clarity on past experiences to help get some kind of closure. But usually people who have had such experiences become very hateful when they know where I'm coming from and it becomes impossible to communicate. In fact, I see a lot more people spewing hate here than in forums specifically for Ps. A lot more. Let that sink in for a while. Empathy does not necessarily make people peaceful and loving. My favorite spiritual people are those who profess unconditional love to everyone and all, and then in the same breath proceed to call me names and and all the bad things they think of me.

As I said, I'm not going into specifics about the condition. Besides not even the experts are agreeing on what whether sociopaths and psychopaths are the same or not. There's plenty online to find. I don't mind answering specific questions from my own subjective perspective.

I rather think that the condition comes from what was done to me in past life, because I can remember it. Please don't blame it on me for past choices, because you are then blaming an innocent child who I feel very protective about.

My girlfriend and I are really having a twin connection. Our relation could not have anything but a constructive and positive effect on both of us. It's not just the crazy stalker love that most here seem to talk about. In a sense she is me and I would never do anything that's negative to her. I don't think I'll even ever get angry with her. Yeah, other girlfriends have been emotionally hurt by me. But that an entirely different kind of relationship, and I don't see any reason to compare them. The TF connection is something deeper than what you could have between a parent and child. She's extremely empathic and intelligent, but I didn't "choose to date her", we just happened to meet and I could not choose to NOT be her partner. It's not a choice to be hers anymore than it is a choice to wake up every morning and breathe air.

Choronzon, but ok, close enough.
Anyway, your point being...?

Excuse me interjecting but when has psychology been able to help with spirituality and/or spiritual growth; when has it been able to take an interest aside from the effects of observable behaviour, and in the most general sense? It's one subject they can't usefully deal with.

Point being that spirituality is unique to the individual and experiences defy description let alone measurement. Psychology is about generating stereotypes - the DSM - from collating symbols. A "patient" can't describe the quality of their experiences except in the grossest terms - "the sensation was pleasant" etc.

If a psychologist turned to studying the spiritual (in more than a statistical sense - deeply, I mean) she/he would become spiritual and psychology would cease to be relevant. To generate any kind of reference points they'd have to become spiritual themselves.

....

I think we don't talk exactly about the same things when we use the term psychology. I was using it more in the sense of knowing deeply once's mind rather than putting people into boxes. Carl Jung for example was very spiritual, even mystical and yet he was a psychologist.
Humanistic, transpersonnal and perhaps positive psychology can be beneficial to spiritual growth.

My point is that manipulation and causing emotional stress intently is absolutely not neutral.

If what you say is true then you're not a psychopath, you made a wrong diagnose on yourself.


https://www.psychopathfree.com/conte...o-Idealization

http://psychopathsandlove.com/stages...-relationship/

http://www.thenarcissisticpersonalit...l-mate-effect/

@arnicamontana, did you have a personal experience with a P?

I've read a lot on those sites you are referring too. I think they make some good points there but I also believe that it's not the whole story. Psychopathy is a very complex subject. Yes, it's true that Ps are very hard to reach but it's not impossible. If you're interested in a more optimistic view on the subject look on youtube fir the video "David Berstein - reparenting a psychopath". This is a very educated man who worked with psychopathic offenders for over 20 years. He's developed a new therapy and goes against the believe that psychopaths cannot be helped in anyway. I respect him for this.

However, if you are recovering from abuse I can fully understand you're not interested and that's fine too. Just wanted to say that there are more perspectives on this very complex subjects. People with psychopathy have effects of their condition on a physical, emotional, mental and spiritual level.

Last thing I want to say is that real TF relationships go beyond the "normal" rules. So why wouldn't it be possible that a TF can reach a P? Maybe still unlikely, but impossible?!

I can't disagree with your appraisal of Carl Jung.

But to me, he like a few early psychologists did concern themselves with the mystical/spiritual/metaphysical when it was thought some progress could be made. Alfred Adler was another one. Perhaps Jung more than anyone made further development with the spiritual more difficult. As psychobiology and the behaviourists took off, it turned more to observable results and observation. I think the days of Jung are over now because a number of other fields came into play, new philosophies which kind of took over from the noumenal, spiritual field of study - which does not detract from Jung's influence today at all. He kind of sits on the fence.

The clue to me came with the term psychology itself - law of the mind whcih means generalisation. But you raise a good point with Jung. One sage I tended to follow, Michael Bertiaux, drew much from Jung.

...

I know someone who had a relatively short experience with a P and realized the truth after having read these articles, and who struggled with C-PTSD and cognitive dissonance as a result of such a relationship. I'm almost convinced there is a narcissist in my extended family who has caused some harm. And you, do you know a P ? I have checked your link,i'll do in more details but i've some doubts, i think it's entirely depends on the free will of the individual.I have a spiritual understanding that while it's the minority, some people are consciously on the negative spiritual path of evolution and are mocking those on the positive path; i think that psychopath fits very well that description.


AH a happier subject :hug3: , have you had a TF relationship ? It would be a great thing, perhaps i will meet my TF one day or perhaps not
but i'm happy either way.

Thanks, I guess?
But this is why we shouldn't have the discussion about the definition of P. You disregard my decades of experience as being one and the judgement of psychologists that have spent decades of their life studying it and have been in countless sessions with me. But you want me to accept your diagnosis after reading a few lines of text here? Common. I'm not getting into this discussion as I've said over and over.

But yeah, being in a TF relationship is making making me less P, that's the very point I'm trying to say here. You seem wiser than most, but don't jump to conclusions :)

Well said!!
This is the kind of openminded thinking a was hoping and expecting to find more here at this forum. Unfortunately people here are generally less openminded about new concepts. Ironical when you think about the scientifically untestable claims they want others to take at face value lol.

It wasn't about you randahl. It wouldn't be fair, i don't pretend to know you.

These article were to point out the classical behavior of P, identical to the one my friend met and also reminds me of a possible narcissist in my extended family and an other possible one at work.


Could you give us some advice, Randahl ?

First of all I want to say that I think you’re absolutely right about that it is important to talk about the subject of Ps and toxic people. Most of the time an encounter with a P is destructive for the person in question, like with your friend. PTSD is a terrible thing as I know from firsthand experience and I wish your friend all the best and hope he will be able to heal from it. I think it is very important to recognize abuse early on so that you can protect yourself from it and walk away in an early stadium.

Having said that, the reason I joined the discussion is because I am the TF girlfriend Randahl was talking about. There are so many things I can say about my personal journey that I don’t know where to start. If you’re interested, feel free to ask questions. I’ll be happy to answer them. I can tell from you’re posts that you’re an open-minded and sensitive person :smile:.

My spiritual view on what psychopathy is has some similarities with your view but there are also some differences. I agree with you that there is darkness. When I met Randahl he was in a very dark place and he agrees with me on that. We started talking online and anonymously. He was on a forum talking about his psychopathy because he felt the need to share things about it and because it was anonymous there were no real life consequences for him doing so. I contacted him because I had two periods in my life where I had suddenly very strong P traits. As I indeed identify myself as an empath you can probably understand how confusing this was for me and the people close to me. I started talking to him because I was looking for answers for myself, about what happened to me. I thought it would be helpful to have more insight in the internal world of a P. I picked him because there was some sense of recognition. Now I understand that it was the TF connection that brought this feeling of recognition. But I didn’t realize it at the time.

Soon after we started talking all these very intense spiritual things started happening. I’ve had so much confirmation that he really is my twin flame that I don’t even know where to start to list them. Also the timing of me contacting him was very interesting. At the time he was very ambivalent about being a P and struggled with experiencing this constant void. As you probably know, because you’ve clearly done your research, Ps struggle with an enormous sense of emptiness and boredom on a daily basis. I found him at the time there was some window of opportunity, he could be reached. I think the reason that I could reach him was because of the TF connection and also because he was open to it at the time. Real twin flame love is so strong that it pierces through everything.

I want to make clear that it is absolutely NOT my intention to minimize any negative and destructive experiences victims of Ps have had. I don’t think our story is the norm. And most of the time it is probably better to just walk away.

Lastly, I want to share a fragment of a poem that sums up so perfectly how it was for me in the beginning:
And in the luck of night
In secret places where no other spied
I went without my sight
Without a light to guide
Except the heart that lit me from inside.

It guided me and shone
Surer than noonday sunlight over me,
And lead me to the one
Whom only I could see
Deep in a place where only we could be.

I hope this isn't out of place, but since this has veered into a discussion of psychology/psycholgists, maybe I’ll be excused for adding…

It’s true that “experimental psychology” (such as Behaviourism) and psychobiology tend to be disinterested in spirituality as we tend to see it and discuss it on SpiritualForums, just as Freud’s psychoanalysis was. Jung was one of the more questing and open-minded because his personal experiences didn’t fit within the boxes. Jung was also a traveler who was interested in the experiences and outlooks of peoples he visited in Africa and in the Native-American communities of the southwestern U.S. He did not “classify and condemn” so much.

Today, psychologists of the “transpersonal” vein are well aware of Jung’s outlook and contributions, but as the decades have unfolded they’ve gone further in various ways. They are definitely interested in spirituality, and not prone to generalization for dogmatic purposes.

I came across a really interesting book by Dr. Stanislav Grof titled When the Impossible Happens, one of the numerous books Grof has written, but this one is autobiographical. Grof ws trained as a medical doctor and psychoanalyst in Czechoslovakia during the Iron Curtain days. But one of his mentors was working with lysergic acid diethyl amide, and an initial experience with that immediately converted Grof to a Jungian outlook. From there, he emigrated to the U.S. and went on to explore yoga meditation, meet visiting gurus, try (and then develop) personal growth methods, etc. Eventually he traveled to places to experience other, indigenous cultures - such as ones in Brasil and Australia. I can tell you that Grof - and all of the transpersonalists - are quite different from what your image of a psychologist (and his way of viewing things and working) may be!

"There's no such thing as sanity and that's the sanest fact"

Dire straits :-)