The practical side of religious/spiritual beliefs
 

The practical side of religious/spiritual beliefs

The question of religion relies on one thing for me - "Why?' - and 'Where is that idea come from?' These questions are the bain of every religion stating it is the one true belief - because why and the 'where did that idea come from?' is explained by saying "god". That to me is a lack of explanation.

What I believe is important is to see the roots of a belief or religion - why have rules - or why is god is stating "you must do this" . The answer for me is simple - there is always a practical element to these beliefs not a spiritual one.

Taking god out of the rules - most religions have don't kill, don't steal, don't cheat on your missus. etc. These are not religious rules - they are rules for society to maintain order - not many would argue with them. Where did the idea come from- god? or people wanting to live in a settled society? - Rich people - kings, pharaohs etc wanting to maintain their rule by order. saying god made the rules - helps this king maintain order so he can stay rich and society can grow and give him ultimate justification for these rules.

An important part of many religions is ceremony. The roots of ceremony are to do with people not being able to read and write and having a way of passing down information to the next generation. This was not based on god telling people to act a certain way or burning some smelly things brings you closer to god - it was people living their lives in a routine for a practical reason. Routine becomes ceremony - ceremony becomes rules of a religion.

Many religious beliefs come from simple survival hints - i.e. eating certain foods. It is more practical to not eat meats that are difficult to cook to avoid food poisoning. The practical side of dietary laws are based on this idea - not that the animal is evil or dirty but just our ancestors found it difficult to survive on it.

Moreover there are several things that every religion has that can be linked to basic human survival - for example sacrifice. Getting to the root of the idea of sacrifice we look at the first sacrifice. Hunter gatherers - this can mean something as basic as putting back some eggs in a nest - not taking them all. Therefore guarantying the future food resource. That is sacrifice. You are sacrificing some food in order to be able to tap into the source at a later date - i.e. survival. The concept of sacrifice came from enabling survival. We can see further evidence of this - Is a cow revered because it is so special - or by killing it you remove the food source for a longer period of time? Its about respecting nature as the thing that lets you live.

It is managing the resources around you that enables survival - now that may seem stupid compared to sacrificing animals or humans to appease the gods, or indeed a sacrifice of a demi-god for peoples sins. But that's where we must remember what has happened - the personification of the universe. Religion and spiritual beliefs were founded on the basic human survival requirements. Sun, Water, Food, Family, Shelter. As religion and civilization grew these basic things grew into personifications - we then have the sun god, god of the sea, god of love, god of war etc etc humanisation of the different aspects of the world. Personification of the universe is exactly what happened to religions of Egypt - and the middle east and therefore the progression into christianity. I believe it is the ultimate egotistical act of mankind to humanise the world and universal processes - and even humanising god.

It is clear looking at every religion that there is a progression of beliefs. This is a normal thing to occur - we can say that there is a greater understanding of the world around us - or greater understanding of god. But that does an injustice to the people that lived before us - no religion sprung up and maintained the original beliefs. It is people living - building their beliefs on the previous generations beliefs that builds society - and builds the religion . If religion wasn't deemed so important by people then it is just another thing that we continually change and adapt to help society live its life . An idea or concept of god changing is no different to an idea of slavery or democracy changing. But there lies the problem - many people think that that beliefs and therefore god are constant. We just need to look at every religion and every generation to know that this is just not true.

In my opinion it is clear that religious beliefs have come from practical elements of survival. These beliefs have been built upon by every generation from hunter gatherers to modern day society, changing and adapting to the society , the people live in it and the political aspirations of the people making the rules. That in my opinion is a key thing to consider when considering religion and spiritual beliefs.

Sounds reasonable enough Eagle, though a bit like calling an 800 lb Grizzly a cuddly little furball. Sure, that's what it was once upon a time, when it was young and just starting out. I'm not one for spiritual/religious doctrine and dogma as you can tell. :wink:

Well i think we give power to things by believing in them - but seeing the root and the development unites all religions and all belief systems and all spirituality - and indeed all mankind.


in my opinion of course....... :D lol

That's a nice sentiment, but spiritual and religious belief systems are anathema when it comes to self-realization and inner development. IMO of course.

As was spirituality and all the new-age doctrine people believe in.

hmmm.... well i think it can be a useful tool but as they get people thinking - but sticking by set rules never changing - yes i agree.

i personally disagree with terms like inner development. i view more as directions of conciousness.

The Eagle,

I think I understand what you are saying. I'm not a religious person but I like to think of myself as an intuitive and spiritual person.

Religion is very complex. I think there are religious people who would admit to the Bible, the Koran, whatever, being a sort of guide that they live by.

I also believe we are going through some amazing changes in our thinking. With all the information available to us today, we no longer have to depend on the information contained in a few books to know how to live a decent life. We can do our own research, come to our own conclusions and develop our own personal belief system. I think this is what spiritual types are doing.

It's not a case of religion verses spirituality. From where I'm sitting, it looks like religious types are in 'if it aint broke don't fix it' mode and spiritual types are in a 'there's more going on here than meets the eye' mode.

This kind of thought goes beyond practical. I don't suppose you could consider a monk sitting in meditation for hours very practical and yet that is just what some of the wisest men on this planet do every day.

I don't want to offend any religious people who may be reading this. These are just some thoughts I had while reading your post.

For me - and I could be wrong - religious types seem ... struggling for an appropriate word here ... stationery; satisfied with what they have read, been told, and believe.

I find spiritual types always seeking more information, somehow knowing that there is so much more to learn about themselves and the world they live in - and beyond.

If I’m way off what you posted about, sorry. :smile:

I will be happy to read more of your ideas and thoughts. :smile:

i see wht you are saying although i think its doing a diservice to say that religious types are not spiritual types also.

where i stand on spirituality is that no matter how you approach your life - that it is spiritual.

i think we forget that spirituality is also in things like war - there is a spirituality involved with the physical life - whether its love or hate, peace or war - its all spiritual and the approach we take to these things is spirituality - because it involved us.

we tend to find a belief system that fits with out individual personalities - so religious types there is nothing wrong with that its no less spiritual than someone that doesnt believe in any god as the spirituality is directed towards other things. :smile:

You disagree with the idea of developing and working on one's consciousness? I don't understand your comment.

i disgree that conciousness can be further developled - merly directed. when directed - our conciousness focuses on one part but then ignores another. therefore trying to achieve a "higher level of conciousness" isnt above anything - its just a "direction" - equal to everything else as you have to ignore phsycal reality to go there.

perhaps i am not wording it properly - lol.

Which is why such generalities like "religious types" and "spiritual types" don't work and don't really address the important questions. I've met religious people who are deeply spiritual, and spiritual people who adhere to their beliefs with religious fervor.

Strickly speaking, any hardened belief system is a form of religion. And spiritual people are often as intent on holding onto their beliefs as people who follow mainstream religion are. The one thing that differentiates those who adhere to belief systems versus the "spiritual types" that Maiya seems to be speaking of, is the understanding that self-realization is the key to achieving god-realization. And that it has nothing to do with belief in biblical-style gods, or messiahs, or UFOs or reptilians races, or whatever other fantasies people care to create and imagine.

There are all sorts of exercises and meditations available to anyone that assist and develop the ability to attain high states of consciousness and spirit awareness. That's not new.

Okay, I see what you mean here. The word "higher" is usually used in this way to describe a "finer" degree of spirit perception, is all. Being able to percieve the less-physical and more-etheric realms, one might put it.

but the excercises often involve ignoring phsycal reality. clearing you mind etc. you ignore part of your conciousness to do so, its directing your conciousness into an area - thus ignoring another.

if anything it is becoming less concious. lol.

Earthly consciousness is not the be all and end all. :smile: I'm a practitioner in the realm of experiential wisdom, so I certainly appreciate the value of our day-to-day experiences. But you yourself started a thread about dream consciousness. So even you know there's great wisdom to be gained in our less-conscious experiences as well. Meditation is no different.

I think shifting consciousness is best. It's like trying to see infront and behind at the same time. Otherwise we would all be doing it if we didn't have to do something differently.

well i guess this is where my belief of spirit comes in - its a bit more of a pragmatic approach to it i guess.

my belief is that there are no realms other than the one we live in right now. it doesnt mean however that spirit doesnt exist.

i guess it comes down like all things of what we each deem as truth and reality. is pushing conciousness into an area that ignores phsycial reality a way of getting to truth? ignoring reality can never get you to truth in my opinion. :smile:

do you know another conciousness that isn't "Earthly" then? lol.

well the other thread was about becoming concious in dreams - therefore becoming able to do anything you want - conciously. lol

dont get me wrong - concentrating on spirit - meditaion it is a useful tool - but its only a useful tool as you come back to reality to practice what you learnt. truth is still "reality" - where you push your conciousness too is not. :D

What I envy that religion seems to create for its followers is community. It is lonely out here when you break away from the heard.

I also appreciate religion for those people who engage it seriously as a path of transformation, seeking to better themselves. It is a slow path, but it is still a path. I can't knock religion when people engage it for self-development. I can knock it for causing people to feel too comfortable with their reflected and parroted understanding. The fuel to go beyond our current understanding comes from its failure to cope with existence. In that sense, the community generated and everyone parroting the same beliefs at each other helps make for a comfortable sleep.

well there is two sides of that. the heard also gets broken up because of religion too. lol.

interestingly since you mention community - i read an article the other day that suggested religion was actually the cause of civilisation. they found a temple that suggested that hunter gatherers had built as one of the first structures.

personally i think i will stick to thinking farming was the casue of civilsation as its far more practical.

nice hat :D

The Consciousness or God Mind that's responsible for the creation... how about that for starters? What do you think we're tapping into when we meditate, or when we have a divine inspiration? What do you think is the consciousness source that's responsible for the daily miracles, both small and large, we encounter in life?

I’m enjoying your posts. But just to keep us on the same page, I never said religious types were not spiritual. I think we all are. It’s just that some of us are more aware and more accepting of that fact.

You keep posting and I’ll keep reading. :smile:

*pokes eagle with a stick*

When did we grow up?! Lol Great post. Either we have rubbed off on eachother, or the apocalypse is upon us...

I have nothing of value to add lol

Blame the Sumerians' Annunaki for civilisation and religion, they started it:-) It wouldn't surprise me though if the first temple was built by hunter/gatherers considering they would want to grow and catch more to feed themselves and their families.


Or some have this concept that they are more Spiritual because they meditate or try to be like the gurus. I think we are all Spiritual after own own fashion, perhaps the big test is seeing the Spirituality where there is none immediately apparent.

Spiritual or religious, find Spirituality in your religion or follow your Spirituality religiously. Be neither Spiritual nor religious. Follow the herd or walk your own Path. What are the differences? Only the ones we choose to make.

If we are Spirit on a human Journey, how much more Spiritual can you get regardless of what you think of Spirituality or religion? We resonate at this 3D frequency or however else you describe it to learn the lessons/gain experience/whatever else. Isn't that a practical side to our Spirituality? If 'We Are One' and we argue over who is more Spiritual than the other, doesn't that perpetuate Separation? And isn't Separation supposed to be a bad thing?

Is it just me, or are there just too many contradictions being created when really there are none?

well to be honest i concede the point - as i believe that the universe is concious at a basic level and that it is responsible for creating the universe in the first place - but that is still technically an "Earthly conciousness" as the Earth is part of phsycial reality.


the quick answer for the above from my beliefs would be - self and us. the link may explain my viewpoint a bit more.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=21323

perhaps you would like to describe a miracle you mention? :smile:

i have never "rubbed off" on you thank you very much! i am married my dear! lol

apocalypse pah! bring it on!



life in general - or just for this thread???

hugs lol :hug2:

you are right - i apologise.

i dont think some are more "aware" though. perhaps a langauge game again - i view it as we have the same awareness but direct our thoughts along paths that lead different places. you cant be fully aware of the other places unless you are there.

if that makes sense. lol. :D

Very nice.........I enjoyed that! :smile:

Ha-ha! I was wondering if you were going to come back with that. Of course, everything is interrelated, and human consciousness is part of that everything. On the other hand, from a hermetic perspective, there's truth in every opposite idea. So it's just as correct to say when we meditate, we tap into energy and consciousness that is uniquely different than human or earthly consciousness. I certainly don't have the consciousness to pull off creation, do you? So there you go: regardless of whether one cares to recognize other forms of consciousness, the fact is there IS something related to "higher" forms of consciousness, awareness and creative action. And sleepy mortals like myself and everyone else on this forum are simply not there yet.

Greenslade,


As in seeing the good in people? Or is that seeing beyond the person?


I agree with you there. I don't often agree with others easily and this can cause conflict because I'm not a crowd follower. Square peg round hole comes to mind.

I'm new and trying to get with the board's terminology and finding I have to re-post to clarify what I mean so bear with me. :smile:

I see a spiritual path, this path may look different to each one of us, I see people behind me and I see people ahead of me. I do not see anyone better off or further along spiritually than anyone else. I see individuals carving their own unique spiritual path. Some people choose to share the journey with one or two others from time to time but eventually we all travel the path alone - and yet together.

As for the practical side of spirituality. I think left-brain logic is suspended during meditation in order to enter the intuitive, non-linear spiritual dimension.

The Eagle,

Apology accepted. :hug3:



No. I see that we do have different levels of understanding and awareness of religious and spiritual things. And that we are all actually heading in the same direction but taking different paths.

Actually it only appears to be a different path. The image of the mountain with the temple at the top comes to mind. Everyone is heading towards the temple but taking different paths up the same mountain.

IMO - Everything that happens, happens for my development, i form an opinion based only on this perspective.

The role of religion in our development will become clear when we transcend it to a different understanding.

In the meantime as Eagle stated religion reveals human development through primitive beleifs, then faith in religions, then faith in knowledge, in science and then ............ the next level

Religions are useful as psychological support but should lay no claims to the 'soul', the world to come and so on, as it really doesn't know anything about these things. Perhaps if religions adopted this approach, its halls may be full from respect rather than fearful obligation through threats of damnation or reward in some other place and time.

Religion as mentioned before comes from Man. Mankind's destiny is to change, however the concept of 'God' as being constant has great relevance in regard to mans development.

A constant force reveals the 'distance' that inconsistency is from it. It gives man the identification from which it can change, the extent to which man, through his own desire can create change.
He cannot create change in actual events in his life, but he can change his perception of what is occuring.

Religion says 'if you behave in such and such a way or if you perform such and such rituals' you will get rewarded, usually in some afterlife, however you also get rewarded in this life by feeling calm, assurred, valued, honorable.

This approach stems from mans perspective, From Ethics. Ethics change in accordance to a developing consciousness as it attempts to align with outside (constant) influences.
We do not yet realise how we are completely operated by the external environment. Until we do the best thing we can do is accept what we feel and keep advancing.

So again we come to 'Everything that happens, happens for my development, i form an opinion based only on this perspective.'

If i see from this perspective i know that it is me that requires change, not my character, for this is unique to me and is necessary for life in general, but how i perceive what i see, feel, hear, taste, & touch, and I use the guage of constancy externally, to realise its unchanging, unconditional perfection. then i may see the universe for what it really is.

Lol You know you wish it was me! Pffft you knew me first, I remember when you met her...lol

Take your pick, lol you know you can't live without me! :wink:

Seriously, its good to see you happy. :D Its all pretty amazing isnt it? When are the eagletts gonna come?

I was having a quick flick just before I came on this thread and clicked on another thread just for.... It's not one I would usually have a look through. As it said - "Who is wise? The man that learns from everyone." That's everyone, not just the ones that can spout the Spiritual techno-babble and try to amaze others with their in-depth understanding of all things Spiritual. I believe good and bad are judgement and we should be trying to get past that. Not just seeing the good in people, but as much as we can from our own perspectives see the merit in what they say and who and what they are. Honouring their Path as much as we Honour our own. In seeing that perhaps their so-called lack of Spirituality is their chosen Path, and that part of that Path isn't always so much about our lessons as theirs. They may be there for our lessons as much as we for theirs. What we need to do is look at the interaction between our two perspectives.

There is nobody behind and nobody in front, we only see that in comparison to each other and relativity in some kind of imitation goal that doesn't really exist. Who sets the standards? Those that think they are in front of everyone else. They are behind because we deem ourselves to be more Spiritually advanced than them, they are in front because we deem them to be more Spiritually advanced than us. Is this judgement? Perhaps the Spirituality lies not in the relativity of the perspective but in the wisdom of seeing that we are both where we need to be. You mentioned a non-linear dimension when meditating, would this non-linearity also apply to Spirituality? Ascension implies starting here and going there - linearity.

Perhaps in asking the question in the first place is a reflection of the poster's beliefs, in that the Spiritual and everyday Life are Separate. Is there Separation between the two or is our everyday Lives Spiritual in essence? If we are Spirit on a human Journey then no, it isn't. If it is then that denies one of the major tenets of Spirituality - two in fact. One is that we are not Spirit on a human Journey and the other the perpetuation of Separation.

Greenslae,


I'm working on it.


True.


Could be simply where I am now. It's a never-ending process this personal and spiritual development.


I do believe that everyone is in the best seat for them at this moment in time.


I believe so.


Yes.


Speaking for myself - it is a personal journey after all - my spiritual life is separate from my everyday life. I find it has to be because the people around me don't meditate, don't burn candles, and look quite curiously at my wind chimes, and... they think I'm a little weird.

In my head my spiritual life and my everyday life are one and the same. But I haven't yet figured out how to make that a reality in my everyday life and still get along with these people I love.

It's almost like one of those topics you don't bring up at family dinners because it makes some people feel uncomfortable. The only way I have read about to be able to do this is to go off on your own some place and that wouldn't work for me - in this life. So I have my inner world and my outer world and, right or wrong, I work to keep them apart - for the time being.

:smile:

i disagree strongly. meditation is more "zoning out" of other peoples conciousness so you are left with the self. - its also why mountains, caves and deserts are/were considered spiritual places - no people about.


i do and i believe you do too. we create all the time - we create the future, we create life etc etc. furthermore the idea that conciousness alone created the universe is unfounded. counciousness has to be attached to a physical form - the universe doesnt have to be a concious construction either.


well the relation comes from the human input - so "forms of conciousness" are developed and sourced from the individual.

ah but are you fully aware of the other side of the mountain if you are not there? lol

if you are overly concerned about the destination - you miss the wonder of the journey. :wink:

lol well i wouldnt be here today without you Goldie - you know that.

We could of had Golden Eagles - but with my Mrs i think they are going to be Ginger Eagles instead. lol. in a few years maybe -fingers crossed - legs too for a couple of years lol. :tongue:

Lol creating a new species! Now thars god power! It was meant to be.

I wouldn't be here without ya either!

Though, you're gonna have to change your mind about reincarnation...lol

Legs crossed huh? I'm not believing it for a minute.