Yep I get that, it's not worth talking to a 3 year old about the meaning of life, and I understand that contradictions made in the way you have explained in another post holds weight for sure ..

I still find it a bit contradictory in a way where one addresses the masses in a certain way to then negate it all ..

It's like one truly believing that life is but a dream to then teach the masses that it isn't . Well if one truly believed in what they believe, then they would of realised that there is no one present to be taught about reality being dreamy or not .

This is the fundamental contradiction I see often with people saying one thing and not actually live in accordance to their truth .

Why fill the head of the masses with teaching about life, self, and the reality lived when there isn't actually in truth anything to know ..

Why not just teach their truth ... You see what happens when one doesn't, it get one in an awful muddle at times ..

There is a non duality teacher Jeff foster who declared there is no one actually here for quite a few years to then embrace there was and how can he deny it any further ..

Certain things are self evident and this is what eventually catches peeps up, when what is self evident is initially denied somewhat because of a belief held that hasn't been realised ..



x daz x

Sounds like a great spot for communing with nature. I spoke with someone the otherday about how Cities can provide us with moments of pure presence , at least that has been my experience. How one can experience an almost of body experience moving through a crowd.

Also I remembered in the conversation that when I returned from Scotland a couple of times which was a long drive, there was a point at late evening time when alot of the cars were heading home from work, that the cars themselves and people fell into synchronicity. As if the cars were almost driving themselves, people knew when to indicate pull into the lanes etc etc. no one moving too fast or too slow etc. .. it was a like a dance. Nothing too miraculous of course but something a little universal, I suppose also this is why people in general attend big festivals and sporting occasions to feel that sense of community. Thanks for sharing. :smile: Joe.

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QUOTE 99 EXCERPT:


As we have discussed before, there are many religious sects and people out there for whom "there is no doubt" and yet they contradict each other. :D I have therefore become very wary of those who proclaim that "there is not doubt" whatsoever.

There is a cute story about Socrates that is often told by the Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn. (Obviously, I don't know for sure whether the story is historically accurate or not, but the point of the story is nonetheless quite clear.)

Socrates was reportedly asked if he knew himself in accordance with the famous saying "Know Yourself" at the Delphic Oracle. His response was: "I don't know .... but I do understand the not-knowing." :smile:

The Christian classic "The Cloud of Unknowing" touches on this same point. In addition, when asked by the Chinese Emperor who he was, the Zen Master Bodhidharma reportedly responded "Not Knowing".

The standard "Who Am I" Self-Inquiry process leads to some interesting responses by those for whom "there is no doubt". What is the answer to that question? :D Is there a response to that question ... ultimately? :D

Isn't what is "known" ultimately a concept in the mind/Mind of those for whom "there is not doubt"?

Like Socrates, I am getting a better and better understanding of the "unknowing". Eventually, one does not even say "there is no doubt" ... eventually.

First of all, I don't say that "all things are illusory" but I do say that they are dream-like in many ways since most people can relate to dreams and how real they appear when entangled in them. A lucid dreamer, however, realizes that the dream-objects and the dreamer are one and the same. I think that you can easily see where this dream analogy leads so it doesn't seem important to elaborate further on that point and thus belabor the obvious.

Regarding "how we draw conclusions", I can relate very well to what you wrote. I was (and probably still am to some degree) an intellectual ... Phi Beta Kappa in college, logical problem solver in IT programming, management, and consulting with Fortune 500 firms. I am very familiar and accomplished in the process of drawing conclusions .... and it took an often-frustrating Herculean effort by my teacher to get me past the point of drawing conclusions in the traditional manner through sheer logic.


The specific realization that you mentioned ("what you are isn't confined to a physical mind body experience") is indeed a very important one that is realized by many in many different ways. In groups or in interactions where this is already well understood/realized, even you must concede that "there is nothing to be learned, discussed, or concluded" regarding this particular realization. That should be obvious. This applies to other realizations in a similar manner. Of course, mindful of the process that one went through to reach that point, one does engage one's self in the process of sharing in certain situations... and the key question is HOW to do this. Does one simply state what one has realized for others to regurgitate? Does one ask questions or make statements that point the other(s) to realizing that truth for themselves? Does one point to well documented or personal experiences with a follow up question of "how are such things possible" to make others reflect on the nature of the Reality?

There is one poster here who wrote: "The wannabees say that they are the real thing; the real let you figure it out." Having met several "hidden masters" who outwardly appeared quite ordinary, I have realized that they are generally very very quiet but their words/actions trigger mind-boggling transformations. Some of them communicate completely without words.

Having been exposed to many many different teachers in my lifetime, I can see that, in trying to be helpful, they do address the masses in a certain way and then negate it all (or some one else provides compelling arguments to negate it), as you duly noted. I too sometimes wonder about such teachings but even I see TEMPORARY value in them. That can, however, lead to the unfortunate effect of distrusting those particular teachers and possibly distrusting teachers in general.

As mentioned in my previous post, I have gradually leaned more towards asking questions or presenting documented facts or personal experiences that trigger reflection. (I concede that I may still "pontificate" in some situations though I try not to do that any more. :biggrin:)

You made one very interesting statement in your post that "there isn't actually in truth anything to know". I would love :love4: for you to elaborate on that point as I think that this dialogue is drawing us together ... but then I could be mistaken.:D

QUOTE 102 EXCERPT:


Your post really struck a chord with me as "one can experience an almost (out) of body experience moving through a crowd" almost like one is navigating a dream of one's own creation.

In your example of the cars "almost driving themselves", it reminded me of the sea gulls flying in formations in the sky without bumping into each other. I suspect that they are not thinking about where to fly next but that there is a natural "universal" synchronicity ... "like a dance" ... like the metaphorical dance of Shiva Natarajan .... beyond thought in the realms from which thoughts arise and which move us in various ways (trying to connect this with the thread topic before Miss Hepburn scolds me :biggrin:). It's "nothing too miraculous of course" but something that continues to amaze me when I watch my sea gull friends soaring into the sky together.

Having written this, I am reminded to go outside now and leave more nuts for my squirrel friend who comes daily to my house. I suspect that he/she may already have finished what I left out at the end of the day yesterday. :smile:

The ultimate answer is dissolution of the question. :wink:

Years ago I read an article by him. Jeff Foster began teaching non-duality after his own realisations but eventually became disenchanted with the approach of many Neo-Advaitists whom he felt were just intellectual, lacking love and compassion and the willingness to engage with people. For example, any question was met with the response "Who is asking that?" Jeff Foster decided that he no longer wanted to be such a teacher.

Even after realising the Self, individual consciousness remains. Identification with personality may be recognised as an illusion, but the Self still functions through a particular mind and body. Thus the individual is still present. Jeff Foster simply recognised that he could no longer deny this.

Peace

This angle is indeed interesting.

Though, it appears to be a question known only in a non-dual state. So meditation may provide more fruit than what is answered by thought.