It's in the Christian Bible, which is central to the (Judeo) Christian Faith. This is the Christian Forum.

And regarding your remark on sub compacts in Europe, of course!
Having to do with ludicrous petrol prices.

There are many fuel saving vehicles on the road here, also. That's not what I was saying.
I stated that there is a large market for large vehicles, by those who can afford them, and afford the gas prices.

I'm going to take this one step further and suggest that most of us are now at the mercy of a "fake" and inadequate food supply. A few posts back, someone mentioned that we shouldn't be eating meat when we have a whole grocery store full of holistic items to choose from. This is my viewpoint on that:

Most of what we find in grocery stores (I have only lived in the US and the UK, so I can only speak to what I've seen in both these countries) is anything but "whole" foods. There are processed foods, pesticide-covered foods, factory farmed meat and seafood, and lots of freezers full of "fake meat products" that are full of GMO soy, mold-fungi, sodium, and a bunch of unhealthy additives.

I've "been a vegetarian" before for years at a time (I don't like labels, but there you go) and was surprised at the amount of "fake food" that my vegetarian friends seemed happy to consume. My reasons for vegetarianism were purely nutritional. I'm now an advocate for locally/ethically raised grass-fed meats and wild fish/seafood. For me, the issue comes down to two things: is the food you're consuming actual whole foods (including meat), and is the meat you're consuming not coming from factory farms (and this also includes eggs and dairy if you're an ovo-lacto vegetarian)?

If we desired to be truly part of nature, we would eat as our ancestors did: eat fresh, eat local...this includes animals that were hunted. I eat very little meat (my kids eat more, but they also eat meat-free meals several times a week), but I do not fill in those meatless meals with processed protein. This is just my personal belief, but it always made me stop and think when my vegetarian friends would say something about not eating meat for ethical reasons, and then they would feed their kids textured protein or mycoprotein shaped into patties that were supposed to resemble meat.

This reply seems petty to me; I don't like to get into these discussions because, again, I believe that we are all entitled to our own beliefs, but I'm going to post it anyway. That being said, I felt prompted to express my viewpoint because there were too many blanket statements (that can't be proven) at the beginning of the thread that I felt were condemning to those without the same belief system. Just because you're not a vegetarian it doesn't mean that you're for the unethical treatment of animals; just like if you understand that in some instances (fearing for your life or the life of your loved ones) you may take another human life, it doesn't mean you condone murder.

Baile,

There is some truth in this. However when you say "In the same way many and most people are no longer buying large vehicles and wasting the earth's natural resources".........that is not the same way. To say there is no justification for slaughterhouses means advocating the ELIMINATION of slaughtering animals and consuming meat. The second part about conserving resources speaks to using them in MODERATION and in a sensible way. If it was in "the same way" one should advocate returning to a pedestrian world. Moderation is sensible and realistic....elimination is not sensible and attempts to advocate elimination of anything(meat, wars, etc.) poses ethical and moral dilemmas.....all related to the survival of the species.
For the few Christians that are on this forum consider the scripture of the rich man who went away sad when Jesus told him that he must give away everything. Most people understand this correctly by realizing that being tied to material possessions prevents entrance to the Kingdom of God. But there is an additional aspect to the story that few consider. The rich man was, in part, able to abide by the laws because of his wealth. He could hire people to do the 'unclean' things that were prohibited by Jewish law.....(burying the dead....etc.). It presented, in his mind, a moral dilemma.....how could be abide by the law without having the means to rely on others to perform 'unclean' necessities ?
I have no quarrel with vegetarians or vegans or those who conserve resources. Indeed, they are commendable. But when one speaks of elimination then that has the appearance of being hypocritical. Instead, I would advocate moderation in all things.......that is what will insure the survival of the species.

That would depend on what one defined as being "spiritual" and what wasn't.. Such as the consumption of meat.. However would it be unspiritual of that alien species if they were unable to consume vegetation because their bodies were not designed that way? Perhaps their meat consumption was from adaptability to an environment where vegetation was unable to grow. Would they not be spiritual because they needed to survive by consuming meat? Perhaps they are highly evolved spiritually and do what they need to to survive.

Eating meat should not be compared to slavery as the analogy is not the same. The consumption of meat was/is for survival. The other, was not and was a choice to have not based on survival or as a means to exist.

Perhaps in a thousand years from now we will create a synthetic food that nourishes us without being meat or vegetation.

Included in the Lord's parables are references to eating meat. Neither, however, is it a prerequisite of Faith that one eats meat.
One ought to follow one's Conscience, and preferences to forebearing of meat are mentioned in the Bible, by Paul.

Just as there were references to whether or not a Christian ought to eat meat offered to idols.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/eating_meat

"Bible verses about Eating Meat. ... One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the ..."


In the areas where Jews and Christians found themselves among pagans, food offered to idols was distributed in "Cafeterias", where it was sold to the public.

More questions for the advocates of eliminating meat. If, as many of you, have stipulated that this a moral and ethical stance is it morally right to work for someone who eats meat ? If you have a business is it morally right to hire anyone to work for you who eats meat ? Finally, if your business produces anything or provides any service is it morally right to sell anything or do business with anyone that eats meat ? To maintain your high principles does that imply that, therefore, you must morally and ethically develop a policy of discrimination ?
I don't really expect anyone to answer these questions because it is uncomfortable to be confronted with difficult dilemmas. This thread will disappear because it is troublesome to confront logic.

The Vegans do not have the answers to the world's dilemna.
The dilemna involves fallen human nature, and it is about more than just diet.

One can see logic in their reasonings, but, the heart of the problem involves mammon, Ego related to the survival instinct, and human nature.

Question - What if everyone stopped eating meat? It is discussed about how much Co2 and methane is put out by cattle, and other animals into the atmosphere.
More animals surviving, more gas output contributing to global warming.
This must be accounted for also.

Their arguement about violence and cruelty is understandable, but, after all, as we see, this is the world.
Savagry and "cruelty" among animals in the wild however, is simply referred to as, "Nature".

Am I wrong, here? I'm asking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

"CH4 + 2 O2 → CO2 + 2 H2O (ΔH = −891 k J/mol (at standard conditions)) ..... Cattle belch methane accounts for 16% of the world's annual methane emissions to ... Arctic methane release from permafrost and methane clathrates is an expected ..."

Methane released from frozen deposits, Cattle, and other sources has much worse effect on the situation than CO 2.
There is a runaway, and "snowball" effect occurring.

Everything within time and space is a known, apart from time and space. And, this is what Biblical prophecy informs us of.
God has an answer, and it is approaching.

There is a conclusion to things, and a renewal, as discussed in the Bible.

Hi Folks..

Knight; YES,you will see me uphold the bible - as far as THIS MORTAL CREATION GOES - for it is the closest account to the truth of our creation..However - if you read the majority of my other posts,you could see quite clearly,that whilst I attribute the creation HERE,(planet earth and mortal human life) ,to the creator god jehovah/yahweh of the bible - neverthless,I always state clearly that this parto f creation is just the tail end of a much larger series of creations..

The god of the bible DID create us here,but he is NOT the true Father,source of ALL creation..If we want to learn of the Father,then the bible isnt much help..However,if we want to lern of what it is to "be human",in relation to the greater Divine creation - then indeed,the bible is the perfect tool,for it describes the HUMAN prediacamant perfectly..

This is precisly why Yesua said you must "hate your mother and father" - forgo all the human misunderstandings that was our previous way..He means exactly,forget all this dogma,traditon,doctrine,rules and regulations that are MISUNDERSTOOD..precisely why Yeshua says also,essentialy,to IGNORE the religion entirely,tells us that aspect is for MORTAL CONCERNS,exactly such as this issue here of eat meat or not - MORTAL CONCERNS - Yeshua though is totally UNCINCERNED by ANY of that isnt he..?..Doesnt care if we eat meat or not DESPITE WHAT THE RABBIS SAID !!

You are to choose then really - the Father and follow Christ truly - and here you wil find tha actually,manyo f the thngs "forbidden" to you,are ONLY forbidden by MAN - Christ actually often laughs at our naivete over such things..

Or follow the church,its dictates,its rules - and you will never find the true Father,for you will be far too confused by all the hypocrasy and powermongering amongst the religion itself - manipulation and control - here fo rinstance,telling us wht to eat even..If we want to stay mortal,then follow those in error - blnd lead the blind He said..Or if we TRULY want the Divine,then forget all that "outward" aspect,concentrate as Christ said - Kingdom within you..Mayhaps you too will find similar to my Self - eating meat or not - and many many other things thought of as "sin" - it turns out,are purely,mortal concerns..

Pete, what you ignore, and dismiss, is that Love is prevailent in both Old Testament and New, on God's part in the Bible. And, in dealing with a fallen humanity.

Which I have made clear is fallen from a spiritual, and "angelic" situation.


Again, God is called "Redeemer", and "Savior" in the Old Testament, as well as the New.

And, apart from the shedding of blood of the atoning Lamb of God, there is no remission of sin, which you dismiss, also.

if you were stranded on a mountain-on an island-do you think you would chose to die or eat the flesh of an animal to survive?

by the way, i believe everything is alive-including plants, which have been proven in experiments to feel.

so when you throw that brocolli in the steamer, i doubt it's too happy.

i can't resist sharing a bumper sticker on my jeep:

vegetarian....indian word for lousy hunter.