Hope for humanity, or not?

[Floatsy]

I was reading some posts today, Wolfgaze, knightsofalbion, others.

I see there are people on this forum with service and Love in their hearts. I am so excited.

But it also reminded me of things I see at work every single day: people throwing others under the bus, lies being told to protect themselves, no loyalty or heart in many people - although their mouths say sweet words, their actions belie it.

I'm no Saint :) either but I am heartened reading eg. this blog http://holy-lance.blogspot.dk/

I am heartened and reminded that there are those in the world who have been able to pierce through the very thick shadow of ego and falsehood, and in fact many who see the Light, perhaps even live it...wow.

I guess I am asking if you guys have groups you liaise with in real life too, or if in the normal social circles you run in, whether you are heartened or disheartened by the humans you encounter :)
Just wondering

[DaiBach]

On the whole, I've always found that most people are kind and compassionate. I feel incredibly fortunate to live on this prosperous and peaceful island at this time in its history, surrounded by good neighbours, lovely friends and a peaceful nation.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

i am heartened.

[ocean breeze]

I'm indifferent. I don't even care. I'm too busy bringing joy to my own life. The hell with everyone else. I don't even care to be kind or rude towards others.

[naturesflow]

I'm indifferent. I don't even care. I'm too busy bringing joy to my own life. The hell with everyone else. I don't even care to be kind or rude towards others.


lol. Your such a great person. I love your attitude.

[ocean breeze]

lol. Your such a great person. I love your attitude.

Thanks, though i can never tell whether one is being sarcastic or not lol. Either way its all good.

Later, off to bed. :wave:




:sleepy2:

[naturesflow]

I was reading some posts today, Wolfgaze, knightsofalbion, others.

I see there are people on this forum with service and Love in their hearts. I am so excited.

But it also reminded me of things I see at work every single day: people throwing others under the bus, lies being told to protect themselves, no loyalty or heart in many people - although their mouths say sweet words, their actions belie it.

I'm no Saint :) either but I am heartened reading eg. this blog http://holy-lance.blogspot.dk/

I am heartened and reminded that there are those in the world who have been able to pierce through the very thick shadow of ego and falsehood, and in fact many who see the Light, perhaps even live it...wow.

I guess I am asking if you guys have groups you liaise with in real life too, or if in the normal social circles you run in, whether you are heartened or disheartened by the humans you encounter :)
Just wondering


I take myself into the playing field of life and look at life as it is and just be myself.

Holding an awareness of understanding for life as it is, helps me to remain in my heart open to life and making choices around what I know can be in life.

[naturesflow]

Thanks, though i can never tell whether one is being sarcastic or not lol. Either way its all good.

Later, off to bed. :wave:




:sleepy2:


I meant it. Your funny upfront nature cracks me up, in a good way. Like not following the masses in how things ought to be and more just being you...even if your rude..:D

[Deepsoul]

Well I believe in love and try my hardest to learn the best way to love and respect myself ,my family and my neighbour. I love to grow in Love its like being a flower, I always try to recognise it and learn from when Ive made mistakes and try to do better. Love begets Love...

[knightofalbion]

There is always hope. Evil might have its day, but good always triumphs in the end.

All too easy to be weighed down by all the darkness in the world, but remember that there is an abundance of goodness too.
Most people are good at heart.

Strive to be the best person you can, to do as much good as you can, as much kindness ... In so doing, you will be being true to yourself and to the reason why you are here.
Also, your example will inspire others. We all learn from each other, the value of positive example can never be underestimated.

[Baile]

Our collective destiny and spiritual birthright is for every single soul to become self-aware, which will mark the end of this third-dimension material laboratory. After which humanity will move on to its next enlightenment lesson.

Hard to even wrap my head around the concept that something in any of this, could be "hopeless." Even worst case scenario, if the planet were wiped out, our soul collective would reincarnate in some other new reality and continue on with its destiny path.

[knightofalbion]

The anthropologist Jane Goodall uttered these very wise and apt words ...

"I like to envision the whole world as a jigsaw puzzle, with all the pieces of the puzzle scattered all over the place. If you look at the whole picture it is overwhelming and terrifying, but if you work on your little part of the jigsaw, and know that people all over the world are working on their little bits, that's what will give you hope"

There is wisdom.

[Somnia]

Also, your example will inspire others. We all learn from each other, the value of positive example can never be underestimated.

This is why I enjoy being in service to others, and said service can be extremely simple, such as smiling at someone, saying "hello", doing a random act of kindness (I feel like Deja-Vu because I think I said the same thing in another thread, haha!)...

Anyway, my point is I have hope for humanity. I'm not nearly as disheartened about humans as I use to be as I see the potential for good in all people, even those who commit truly atrocious and vile things...

[linen53]

I think it depends on where you are looking. Personally, like several who have posted here, I see soooo much good in the world, around me, even in my own neighborhood.

I used to concentrate on the negative. It's all around me. Now I steer clear of the negative and gravitate towards the positive. I do make a difference in my corner of the world. And the more I gravitate towards the positive the more the positive gravitates towards me. Like attracts like.

[JoeVallee]

I am an light worker and if I would see some of the things you do I would send light to them and that would be a job well done. We create our own world and you can choose to see it anyway you would like. Being an light worker you keep affirming and doing all your ground work to keep in balance and see a very beautiful world. Keeping in balance is also turning off the noise like tv, radio, eating the right lite foods. Staying true to the path. People, we are living in a very beautiful time if we would all just wake up from the noise we would live in peace and abundance.
Light worker
Joe

[7luminaries]

I meant it. Your funny upfront nature cracks me up, in a good way. Like not following the masses in how things ought to be and more just being you...even if your rude..:D
Hahahaha...........LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!! :tongue:
AGREED.

I appreciate kindness and honesty...and failing that, I appreciate kindness....and failing that, at least be honest then, eh?

If one's not going to give a damn about others, I completely agree he or she should dredge up a modicum of effort, in order to be absolutely be as direct, on point, and hard core about getting that point across :biggrin:

That way, others can clearly see you coming and step aside, or run away, whichever :tongue: Saves the one time as well, having to step around others and explaining that they're in the way, LOL !!!

It's a win-win :wink:

Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

This is why I enjoy being in service to others, and said service can be extremely simple, such as smiling at someone, saying "hello", doing a random act of kindness (I feel like Deja-Vu because I think I said the same thing in another thread, haha!)...

Anyway, my point is I have hope for humanity. I'm not nearly as disheartened about humans as I use to be as I see the potential for good in all people, even those who commit truly atrocious and vile things...
Nice...

What I see here most of all is that you are your own inspiration. I think that's a key factor.

Clearly, as you say, there are many who do act in vile and atrocious ways...and at every level of relationship in society. And the vast majority will still call it right and good, particularly if vile and atrocious words and deeds have become common or even mainstream. As has become the case in many areas of society...even globally.

But hopefully then you, I and the rest of us find others doing in kind which can also provide support and inspiration. And I agree that support and a community of like-minded souls is critical (Buddhists call it the sangha for Buddhism, but I believe the concept has a much broader application).

Peace & blessings, :hug3:
7L

[7luminaries]

Our collective destiny and spiritual birthright is for every single soul to become self-aware, which will mark the end of this third-dimension material laboratory. After which humanity will move on to its next enlightenment lesson.

Hard to even wrap my head around the concept that something in any of this, could be "hopeless." Even worst case scenario, if the planet were wiped out, our soul collective would reincarnate in some other new reality and continue on with its destiny path.
Hallelujah. I can't wait!!! :hug3:

BTW that's not necessarily the worst-case scenario. This IMO is already A worst-case scenario, though not of course THE worst...that's a slippery slope to nowhere. Worst case is we don't become self-aware or that it takes an infinity to do so...aeons of "time" with loads of regression and stalling and apathetic service to self at the expense of others. Aeons more of suffering and enduring a collective existence founded on the ignorance of many or most. To me, that's probably even worse than nearly anything else, even the destruction of the planet and the species. Which also couldn't be good, LOL.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[Floatsy]

Re: goodness and seeing it

As I once said to an old friend "everyone is nice when you're having a beer (insert green tea or water if that is your preference)"

My neighbours are nice people, and one in particular, very gentle and nice. Happy.

But when I see what I call weird behavior - it's at work. It's in environments where people seem to be trying to compete, outdo each other or just look good.

When self interest is invested, "nice" people can show choices which are .. weird.

You say to keep to who you are. OK I typically speak the truth, tell people my feelings or side with justice etc. (I'm probably just a bit too upfront - whatever)

And the thing is because of this, I am not favored. Instead, the ones who pander, who flatter others, and who know how to "play the game" are the ones who win.

And here I am, afraid for my livelihood, not sure where to go..I have found myself in a town where I cannot find a job. In years before, I was fine..but what happened here? I don't know.

I know - on a personal level - people are just doing the best they can with the tools they know. For people who came across or were struck ;) by spirituality, perhaps there is more Grace in being able to choose .. I really don't know.

Thank you for all your perspectives and thoughts...though...I will keep pondering and your contributions are very welcome to my thought processes on this matter.

[Deepsoul]

Good Luck and God Bless on the Job finding Floatsy....:hug3:

[naturesflow]

[QUOTE=7luminaries]Hahahaha...........LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!
AGREED.

I appreciate kindness and honesty...and failing that, I appreciate kindness....and failing that, at least be honest then, eh?

Yes be honest...:D This reminded me of one of those fb quizzes I did last night. It was by the heart centred rebalancing group I am part of over there. They bought up this quiz called. "Are you a psychopath?". The surprising data that one in 25 people are actually one took me by surprise. I was like ok lets do it, see where I stand in all this. Going through the images presented you had to identify how you felt, what you saw. My results came back. "I am a psychopath". As I read through it all I started to feel afraid of myself being one without knowing I was one. lol. I had this little momentary thought that if I am one and I don't know, what on earth might happen being one?

Then as I reflected a little deeper, it took me back through my own emotional binds and fears through my unravelling process and realized that potentially I could have moved into being one, had the binds in me remained and lead me down a path of self destruction in some form, my heart could have potentially turned cold. And from their I would never really know how I would have chosen to survive in this way. I then realized something important to that depth of fear in me that I was afraid to feel. Why I found myself reflecting through the harshest of reflections around me most often through every level of fear and terror unravelling in me, was to understand myself as the other in potential of becoming that, through the strain of emotional bind that I was connected to in myself, but not manifesting it into that strain of creation many psychopaths might choose to manifest it into being. So as I chose to identify myself as all through some of the most terrifying and worse kind, I was actually identifying myself as the potential of my own pain body in some form of it, that was in fact my own fear of feeling fear to that degree, because that fear in me was made up of all that in everyway of it being in me. (Hope this makes sense )

If one's not going to give a damn about others, I completely agree he or she should dredge up a modicum of effort, in order to be absolutely be as direct, on point, and hard core about getting that point across :biggrin:



That way, others can clearly see you coming and step aside, or run away, whichever :tongue: Saves the one time as well, having to step around others and explaining that they're in the way, LOL !!!

It's a win-win :wink:



Peace & blessings,
7L

I think the gift of the me being a potential psychopath or any other form of person debilitated/trapped in some form by deep fear, I have received a gift to remain open to all life, which for me is a beautiful thing. To know I am now open beyond fears, allows me to give them a chance to begin with. Openness meeting them. This is something important in me now. Open to allow, an invitation what flows from their will just be. The complexity of humans and choices we have to make amidst a whole host of issues and problems, of course then flows in as you say. We duck and dive and dance around as it will take us. :wink: But ultimately that direct nature is about me being open and direct in me to be more clear and honest with myself, so my connection leads me in the world and towards life. In this way I can naturally source my own gifts to relate and be more clear in seeing another. Rather than seeing them through my own filters or fears.


I like people. I am interested in them and their life and process, so I will give them a chance upfront. No matter who they are. Some will relate to the open state, some wont. It doesn't deter me all the same.

[WabiSabi]

I believe there is no reason to feel anything at all with the way that humanity is at any given time.
What happens happens, and all is as it is.
Treat people kindly and with respect, and release all attachments to any notions of how they may treat you back.

[naturesflow]

I believe there is no reason to feel anything at all with the way that humanity is at any given time.
What happens happens, and all is as it is.
Treat people kindly and with respect, and release all attachments to any notions of how they may treat you back.


We are allowed to feel what we feel in the face of humanity though.

If your over riding your true feelings and sucking it up, being kind and nice and deep down you have the fear of god in you. Gosh that might send a message of confusion to some who feel all this.

So get clear is mo. Grounded and clear to be more able to cope and present yourself in truth of being, not hiding the truth in yourself.

[WabiSabi]

We are allowed to feel what we feel in the face of humanity though.

If your over riding your true feelings and sucking it up, being kind and nice and deep down you have the fear of god in you. Gosh that might send a message of confusion to some who feel all this.

So get clear is mo. Grounded and clear to be more able to cope and present yourself in truth of being, not hiding the truth in yourself.

I agree.
I need to work on how I word things for sure.
I did not mean to imply that if you feel something when faced with humanity, you should change that.
I meant only to imply that things are always as they are, and will always be as they will be.
If you feel you feel, and if you don't you don't.
If you feel and try not to feel, that is fine, and if you don't feel but want to, that is fine too.
I just happen to find that not feeling and just accepting that all is as it is eases suffering in my life.

[Uma]

We are now out of Kali yuga and moving slowly towards a more enlightened time, so every year there will be more spiritual people and less of the other kind.

[Floatsy]

Thanks DeepSoul lol hugs back

[naturesflow]

I agree.
I need to work on how I word things for sure.
I did not mean to imply that if you feel something when faced with humanity, you should change that.
I meant only to imply that things are always as they are, and will always be as they will be.
If you feel you feel, and if you don't you don't.
If you feel and try not to feel, that is fine, and if you don't feel but want to, that is fine too.
I just happen to find that not feeling and just accepting that all is as it is eases suffering in my life.

I hear you and understand your process as you are sharing.

Things are as we are also. So I find being more clear and open to what is allows me to see things more clearly, express more clearly, feel more freely and be myself more contented as I am.

So I honour the feelings that might arise when I open to that which is there before me. In this way I am more open and present with what is moving in me and allowing myself to enter into the space offered no matter what it is. If I am neutral that often reflects in me a balanced state in feeling. When I am activated or shut down feeling mode I know that I am protecting my feelings. But my feelings will arise again in another form if I do. So it wont make much difference to the process, more just the nature of receiving it again to open deeper.

[naturesflow]

We are now out of Kali yuga and moving slowly towards a more enlightened time, so every year there will be more spiritual people and less of the other kind.

Is this an insight of spiritual wisdom coming from you or from some one else?

[ocean breeze]

[QUOTE]


They bought up this quiz called. "Are you a psychopath?". The surprising data that one in 25 people are actually one took me by surprise. I was like ok lets do it, see where I stand in all this. Going through the images presented you had to identify how you felt, what you saw. My results came back. "I am a psychopath".

That definitely shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who reads your posts. :laughing6: Couldn't help it. Just a little jokey joke. :icon_joker:

[naturesflow]

That definitely shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who reads your posts. :laughing6: Couldn't help it. Just a little jokey joke. :icon_joker:

I don't believe you!

[Oceansofawareness]

I was reading some posts today, Wolfgaze, knightsofalbion, others.

I see there are people on this forum with service and Love in their hearts. I am so excited.

But it also reminded me of things I see at work every single day: people throwing others under the bus, lies being told to protect themselves, no loyalty or heart in many people - although their mouths say sweet words, their actions belie it.

I'm no Saint :) either but I am heartened reading eg. this blog http://holy-lance.blogspot.dk/

I am heartened and reminded that there are those in the world who have been able to pierce through the very thick shadow of ego and falsehood, and in fact many who see the Light, perhaps even live it...wow.

I guess I am asking if you guys have groups you liaise with in real life too, or if in the normal social circles you run in, whether you are heartened or disheartened by the humans you encounter :)
Just wondering


I believe we're all on our own journeys and many are on a much lower level/vibration than others, that is why they can throw each other under the bus and back stab without hesitation. We are surrounded by the unconscious/ego based collective, with a few exceptions such as people who are awakening spiritually to some degree and have a bit of awareness. The fact that you've stepped back to observe this kind of behavior deserves an applause in itself.

Myself personally I am at the point where I want to share myself with everyone and everything, anyone who is open to me in real life instantly feels a connection as of a light is being turned on inside them. I will go about my life this way now, because I see people for who and where they are at consciously and unconsciously. You cannot force people to be open to receiving your thoughts/opinions/values and beliefs, but when you do connect with someone who is open to you, open to each other in effect it is by far the most rewarding thing on this beautiful earth. Sharing in the beauty and the sadness but still sharing it. As for groups well I can say that I have joined a few different online communities including this one and I will be pulling all those in my area in for meetings very soon.

I'll be using this site http://fullcircleproject.net?r=T3RH for most of my gatherings once we get up and running I really like the feel of it. Plus it's all like minded people which is going to help so very much. Those who are unaware are not ready to be woken that is something we all must come to terms with, yet we know that ignorance is not bliss when you wake up to the world we live in today. So I think it's very important for the lights in this world to get together and support each other. I've experienced some powerful stuff when a group of like minds come together in real life. Something we all need a lot more of in our lives, though we do not like to admit it.

To say that everything is fine all the time is to stagnate in one way or another. You seem like you're onto things Floatsy best not be dragged down to their level, I like to laugh or smile when I see the pettiness of unconscious beings having a go at each other. It makes me feel very very alive, alert and human to be aware of the head games people play. Lots of love and light to you :hug:

[Lorelyen]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade (I usually do because of being a
practical spiritual person) but I don't hold out much hope for humanity as is.

There'll certainly be a lot more suffering before anything gets better. Look at
the state of the world, the tensions between orthodox faiths, shifts in
commercial balance, the economic demands and dreams of the wealthy
compared with those of the people who provide if for them, the exponential
increase in population demanding of a finite resource.

The ball-gazers who make predictions claim the population increase will
subdue, adding to the evidence that something will go wrong somewhere
unless worldwide family planning becomes fashionable and the Pope stops
his anti-birth-control antics.

Something will eventually give and it's thereafter that things might
get better. Whether that's because the remaining humans learn lessons,
whether humanity is superseded by further evolution can only be speculated.
Those ball-gazers can tell us nothing evidence-based.

So regardless of whether it's some preternatural intervention that's going to
make things better or not, it's my guess it'll eventually happen or organic life will die out here.

Aside from bacteria and viruses, humans are their own predators. It always
seemed weird to me that half the world wants to look after the health of
humanity while the other half wants to damage it. There's something weirdly
wrong in the design.

We can do all the can to spread the light but we have so little freedom.
We're at the mercy of politicians, most of whom are mendacious
power-hungry parasites; of professional institutes with their authoritarian dogma and
orthodoxies; religions that demand obedience (sometimes on pain of death)
and the need and wish to survive in our physical forms but facing a growing
risk of war and destruction in an increasingly unstable world.

There is little use in sticking one's head in the sand. Rather, face these things
bravely in full recognition of our spiritual nature and spread what light we
can particularly among those whose eyes remain closed....or insist that
if they act the ostrich their problems will go away tomorrow.

So I don't hold out a lot of hope for humanity as it is but speculate that things
will change when catastrophe finally hits.

Point is, does it matter? We're all spirit anyway caged in these material bodies.
Released we (who knows) may be that light that shines on what's left.

There... you can put your brollies away now.
The sun is shining (I mean, really, out there - it's broken through at last).

:::::

[DaiBach]

Human progress isn't assured; one of the threats to our future is religious/spiritual people taking political power. You can see it happening in parts of the Middle East and in the US, where religious fundamentalism is gaining ground. Political freedoms and scientific progress has been hard one, and if we become complacent they could be easily lost.

[naturesflow]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade (I usually do because of being a
practical spiritual person) but I don't hold out much hope for humanity as is.

There'll certainly be a lot more suffering before anything gets better. Look at
the state of the world, the tensions between orthodox faiths, shifts in
commercial balance, the economic demands and dreams of the wealthy
compared with those of the people who provide if for them, the exponential
increase in population demanding of a finite resource.

The ball-gazers who make predictions claim the population increase will
subdue, adding to the evidence that something will go wrong somewhere
unless worldwide family planning becomes fashionable and the Pope stops
his anti-birth-control antics.

Something will eventually give and it's thereafter that things might
get better. Whether that's because the remaining humans learn lessons,
whether humanity is superseded by further evolution can only be speculated.
Those ball-gazers can tell us nothing evidence-based.

So regardless of whether it's some preternatural intervention that's going to
make things better or not, it's my guess it'll eventually happen or organic life will die out here.

Aside from bacteria and viruses, humans are their own predators. It always
seemed weird to me that half the world wants to look after the health of
humanity while the other half wants to damage it. There's something weirdly
wrong in the design.

We can do all the can to spread the light but we have so little freedom.
We're at the mercy of politicians, most of whom are mendacious
power-hungry parasites; of professional institutes with their authoritarian dogma and
orthodoxies; religions that demand obedience (sometimes on pain of death)
and the need and wish to survive in our physical forms but facing a growing
risk of war and destruction in an increasingly unstable world.

There is little use in sticking one's head in the sand. Rather, face these things
bravely in full recognition of our spiritual nature and spread what light we
can particularly among those whose eyes remain closed....or insist that
if they act the ostrich their problems will go away tomorrow.

So I don't hold out a lot of hope for humanity as it is but speculate that things
will change when catastrophe finally hits.

Point is, does it matter? We're all spirit anyway caged in these material bodies.
Released we (who knows) may be that light that shines on what's left.

There... you can put your brollies away now.
The sun is shining (I mean, really, out there - it's broken through at last).

:::::


The practical nature of life is part of the whole too. So everything you offer fits into the whole way of human nature and its affects. If we upset the balance, balance will seek itself within the whole or the individual as one source. And this occurs as we know in many ways of endings, new beginnings, whether through smaller destruction or a much greater destruction, one way or another balance will come through all imbalances in us and in nature in some form.

I would just add that even so, there are lots we can't see, within the whole nature of life in everyway of life being itself, whether here, or other realms out of our view, that support the overall balance.

You said in your sharing, something will give, it always does and always has. This is life and how life and nature works. Humans are creating imbalance and balance all the time. The greater the mess/imbalance the greater balance and clean up becomes.

When you look at life as you show it would appear to be insurmountable in so many ways to bring any significant change. But if we only look there, that is what the imbalance reflects of itself.



Immerse in hope..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWELdS1fG_E

[Lorelyen]

The practical nature of life is part of the whole too. So everything you offer fits into the whole way of human nature and its affects. If we upset the balance, balance will seek itself within the whole or the individual as one source. And this occurs as we know in many ways of endings, new beginnings, whether through smaller destruction or a much greater destruction, one way or another balance will come through all imbalances in us and in nature in some form.

I would just add that even so, there are lots we can't see, within the whole nature of life in everyway of life being itself, whether here, or other realms out of our view, that support the overall balance.

You said in your sharing, something will give, it always does and always has. This is life and how life and nature works. Humans are creating imbalance and balance all the time. The greater the mess/imbalance the greater balance and clean up becomes.

When you look at life as you show it would appear to be insurmountable in so many ways to bring any significant change. But if we only look there, that is what the imbalance reflects of itself.



Immerse in hope..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWELdS1fG_E

Yes, this balance thing is important in how rebalancing proceeds. In the material world, humans impinge on the ecology and the rebalancing is that it will adjust to a new level. That level may be supportive of humanity, maybe not. We often talk of the benefits of progress but that's unenlightened human arrogance. Pillaging the ecology may seem to benefit humanity but some time down the line a downside appears - because a sacrifice had to be made. They talk of "progress" ...such a pink and fluffy idea pointing dreamily to some kind of utopia but are we moving toward that (in the material world)? What has the age of enlightenment and industrialisation done for the "good" of humanity? So....is it progress? Rather to me it's just change. Labour saving devices strip us of parts of our humanity. They let us live easier but at what point does that become destructive?

It's difficult (for me at least) to relate my spiritual aspirations to the evolving material world situation. It's easier to side-line it, to accept that in my spirit trying to survive here I have to accept what befalls me (while having some control over the immediate). I can work toward making things better I can work toward a true balance in the many components of my humanity (as everyone can) I can climb away from the material process people call "ego" to a purer self and then try to dissolve that into the higher emanations of the Creator - is this what people mean by "ascension"? But in point of fact, I may pass out of this phase - life - at any moment. Nature won't miss me. I won't miss material nature. I will go with my collected experiences...I have visited very deep mysteries so I can ponder what use earthly experiences will be to me - probably not a lot but they might be signposts, recognitions, reference points.... and with that, perhaps start over.

About the video you linked. I was reminded of the strange experience when in my teens and first flying (in an airplane, you understand?!) and the cloud cover below with peaks pushing through. Most pleasant film.

If you have a chance, watch Koyaanisqatsi - life out of balance. It's a full-lengther though so if it pops up on one of your TV channels and you'd like to relax with a nice cup of cocoa and some bikkies.... Don't bother looking it up on Youtube. Some pillock has put the complete thing in reverse!
"If we dig precious things from the land we will invite disaster"

To me it's a beautiful film cinématically. Sums up human arrogance nicely.

....
PS I know there's a god..... She's here in the shape of an edit button...

[Baile]

Human progress isn't assured; one of the threats to our future is religious/spiritual people taking political power.If you perceive humans as material beings, sure. If you perceive humans as souls of Spirit, then nothing can be lost regardless of what happens in the material realm.

[DaiBach]

Yes, I do perceive humans as physical (as well as emotional and spiritual). If humans aren't physical we wouldn't need the essentials of life that allow as to be 'spiritual'. I'm here because of all the excellent medical attention I've received throughout my life, because I've got lots of food, fresh water, clothing, sanitation etc - all thanks to the society I live in and the people who work in it.

[WabiSabi]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade (I usually do because of being a
practical spiritual person) but I don't hold out much hope for humanity as is.

Many a wonderful story presents humanity after a great fall, progressing into what may be a truly enlightened future, but still in the grips of chaos and sin. A humanity greatly diminished, utilizing scraps of their former world in order to assert their dominance over a new landscape. These stories are often presented as a 'war' between 'good' and 'evil' (though as we know, light cannot exist without the dark), and while 'evil' always seems to exist, progress is made regardless. Connections formed, differences settled, worlds merged in peace and harmony. Oh how I yearn to know what the future may hold...

[WabiSabi]

If you perceive humans as material beings, sure. If you perceive humans as souls of Spirit, then nothing can be lost regardless of what happens in the material realm.

But why the duality? Are we not both all at once? This material world that we manifest in, that we manifest as, is no less real than the spiritual Source that we all arise from and return to. I believe that for a world to truly reach harmony, it must promote both aspects of human nature. It must allow for both materialistic freedom and spiritual cultivation. A world where the material is subdued, and only spirit is emphasized, is not a world worth living in, at least not in my opinion.

I believe that all realities exist. I believe that there is a reality where this world is destroyed due to our progress, and there is a reality where this world progresses into something truly wonderful. The question is not which reality is better than any other, but rather which reality all of us want to experience in the here and now. I do not want to accept our 'doom'. That is not to say that there will not be very rough and tough times ahead, but I believe we will 'make it' regardless.

'They' say that as we as individuals get closer and closer to enlightenment, the good and the bad start coming closer and closer together. If the material world really is a reflection of our minds, then I believe the same is true of the human race and planet Earth. Right now both amazing good and destructive bad are being wrought all around the world. Things seem to be getting extreme indeed. A tipping point is being neared. What may it mean? Are we closer to our collective enlightenment than we may care to think?

[Baile]

But why the duality? Are we not both all at once?What? Duality? Hardly, what I stated is the opposite of dualism. Duality consciousness is the belief that humanity is something separate and apart from Infinite Spirit, that the eternal soul can be hurt or harmed or annihilated by material happenings, and that our collective evolution can somehow end and fade into oblivion.

Apart from that, we are souls of Spirit, living in human form when incarnated in the material, sure, if that's what you mean, I have no problems with that understanding.

[WabiSabi]

What? Duality? Hardly, what I stated is the opposite of dualism. Duality consciousness is the belief that humanity is something separate and apart from Infinite Spirit, that the eternal soul can be hurt or harmed, and that our collective evolution can end and fade into oblivion.

Apart from that, we are souls of Spirit, living in human form when incarnated in the material, sure, if that's what you mean, I have no problems with that understanding.

My apologies, that is indeed what I meant.

[Baile]

My apologies, that is indeed what I meant.Okay great. So... in your other post you talked about humanity possibly being doomed and not making it. We are of Infinite Spirit. How is it possible for Infinite Spirit to ever be doomed? How can Infinite Spirit not make it, what is there to "not make"? Worse case scenario, we as Infinite Spirit would simply incarnate in some other dimension of reality and existence. Even a parallel earth planet. Whatever it is that's required for our continued soul evolution, would be manifested by Infinite Spirit. Nothing can ever be lost.

[Jyotir]

Hope is available precisely because promise is ever-present.

Promise represents the true reality underlying all life-activity and experience: that all is Spirit, the essence of Life itself, that the nature and tendency of Spirit in the physical is to evolve and Self-discover. .. including and significantly in and through each and every individually differentiated life, which in turn creates the possibility for progressive collective evolution.

The evolution of consciousness readily accessible in human life involves the predominance of mind and desire, which has to be surpassed and transformed by whatever method, into a spiritual aspiration in whatever form - which is the specific promise and opportunity of human life.

Hope is the conscious recognition and utilisation of that promise. It means identification with the divine, and therefore, the ongoing conscious deliberate consecration of actualising the spiritual, as a function of that promise by becoming confluent with it in the truth consciousness.

Cynicism on the other hand, is the mental/intellectual identification with mainly the dissatisfying and destructive results of the ignorant separative consciousness of desire-mind, which operates largely unconsciously, and is the generic circumstance which must be transcended as the challenge of human life.

Cynicism also involves a simultaneous mental/intellectual/rational doubt or even suspicion regarding the reality and efficacy of Spirit as the purpose and agent of positive change. It’s a basic quandary of human condition because of the predominance of mind: Hope of potential which resides within, vs. cynicism because of what lies without.

One may notice that animals are intrinsically ‘hopeful’ in their natural state. They don’t have the dualistic mind to refute that hope with the self-reflected duality of need vs. circumstantial adversity - they just persist in their desire. That’s what animal life is substantially about - and also how human life may be largely animalistic…when unconscious.

Conversely, it’s easy for humans - especially rational intellectuals - to become cynical because we are continuously surrounded by the dynamic surface appearance of countless results of desire-mind, a pervasive circumstance which is unfortunately largely self-generated, unless and until the inherent divine promise is engaged for self and world transformation.

This is why awakened spiritual people have a responsibility to themselves, to their own transformation, in order to become a practical example of the possibilities of Spirit - and its fulfillment in the physical for others, as a beacon of hope, and a continuation of the practical example of and for other spiritual aspirants - including and especially as exemplified by great masters before them. It’s part of a nexus of personal and collective evolution of consciousness.

The so-called law of attraction works here as well - the more hope, the more promise and the more possibility of real actualisation in the physical, both individually and collectively. Each one individual is therefore a potential accelerant of this potential change for fellow human beings...and the entire planet.

Hope is real because promise is real. Whether the former is utilised because the latter is recognised is a matter of deliberate intention and action, as well as collective concern.


~ J

[WabiSabi]

Okay great. So... in your other post you talked about humanity possibly being doomed and not making it. We are of Infinite Spirit. How is it possible for Infinite Spirit to ever be doomed? How can Infinite Spirit not make it, what is there to "not make"? Worse case scenario, we as Infinite Spirit would simply incarnate in some other dimension of reality and existence. Even a parallel earth planet. Whatever it is that's required for our continued soul evolution, would be manifested by Infinite Spirit. Nothing can ever be lost.

Source cannot die, but we as material existences can, even if death is not so tragic as many believe it to be. If the world dies, then we will all go elsewhere, true. But that does not mean this world HAS to die. I believe that options exist, that there are both bleak and bright futures for this planet, and that what future exists for us is chosen in the present moment.

You see, if you believe that Source chooses our path for us, you are fueling dualistic notions, a separation of Source and Self. You ARE Source, and so forge your own path with every step you take. Knowledge of Source should not lead to complacency, disengagement from the material world.

At the same time (and I must contradict myself), if knowledge leads to disengagement, then it was meant to happen. Because we choose our path at the same time that the path is chosen for us. We are both chooser AND chosen.

So the question comes down to "do you want to watch this world die, or do you want to save it?" There is a fine line between disengagement and engaged detachment.

[Lorelyen]

Hope is available precisely because promise is ever-present.

Promise represents the true reality underlying all life-activity and experience: that all is Spirit, the essence of Life itself, that the nature and tendency of Spirit in the physical is to evolve and Self-discover. .. including and significantly in and through each and every individually differentiated life, which in turn creates the possibility for progressive collective evolution.
Not too sure about that. You bring in a nebulous factor - promise. In its true sense "putting forth" but in common usage for quite a time now it comes almost as a contract. You promise something and you commit to what you've put forth.

So, what do you mean with "putting forth" represents the true reality underlying all live activity?

The evolution of consciousness readily accessible in human life involves the predominance of mind and desire, which has to be surpassed and transformed by whatever method, into a spiritual aspiration in whatever form - which is the specific promise and opportunity of human life.
And now you link opportunity to "putting forth". Then....where is this promise from? Who or what puts it forth? I'm unsure even about the premise "evolution of consciousness". It sounds very knowing but what did it evolve from? And are you saying that consciousness has to be surpassed and transformed or that that is part of the evolution?

I had to leave it at that accepting it as your view but I'm unsure what the view amounts to. Hope, to me, equals a wish to a certain state constructed in the mind of the hoper. It may improve focus and a narrowing toward a single-mindedness aimed at something which may (in our culture) be considered good or bad. Hope for a better humanity doesn't entail promise to me. It is just what it is - hope.

....

[Emmalevine]

I believe most people have good intentions and want to do the best they can.

[Mr Interesting]

It's like hope and promise can obviously be that relationship where one kind of bets with oneself that the world will indeed become as one thinks it needs to be, a vainglorious pitting of oneself against the cynicism but it can be transformed and we don't necessarily need new words to describe the underlying functionality of hope and promise as transformed into more selfless attributes. I'm somewhat glad of Jyotir using the words in this transformed way as, so far, I've only been willing to give credence to a transformation of trust as it's seems, the word itself, has always reached deeper than it's obvious action on the surface whilst hope and promise, which may have been deeper felt in the past, have felt shallower and more attached to something that wasn't really trust.

But we have to grab those words back and give them a deeper and more abiding sense of what they can be for us... I feel it in what Jyotir writes, as if I give that which is between the lines the space to speak so in that I can let the words be transformed and be an acknowledgement of connection.

Which reminds me... and I'd forgotten, that faith. hope and charity, that simple and straight forward catechism, or at least I've been using it as a catechism (see, that word catechism just came into my head so I used it, it seemed right, then I looked up what it meant and therein was what I'd always kinda hoped it would be, a promise, as it were, that I could use it to go deeper and spread deeper.... and therein the promise, sitting in trust, has come through for me, it has resounded) and so therein too the responsibilities to sit within these prompts come forth having been thrown out there and bounced about and then they come back to us and we know a little more the work is worthy, and we are worthy... and so it all is worthy.

[Uma]

We are now out of Kali yuga and moving slowly towards a more enlightened time, so every year there will be more spiritual people and less of the other kind.

Is this an insight of spiritual wisdom coming from you or from some one else?

someone else

[Somnia]

PS I know there's a god..... She's here in the shape of an edit button...

Haha! I can imagine someone using this as their signature quote on here...

:)~

[Deepsoul]

Bravo Jytior....Lovely post, touched and supported my Hope and Promise at this vunerable state of growth I am in ,Thankyou Deepsoul...:hug3:

[naturesflow]

[QUOTE=Lorelyen]Yes, this balance thing is important in how rebalancing proceeds. In the material world, humans impinge on the ecology and the rebalancing is that it will adjust to a new level. That level may be supportive of humanity, maybe not. We often talk of the benefits of progress but that's unenlightened human arrogance. Pillaging the ecology may seem to benefit humanity but some time down the line a downside appears - because a sacrifice had to be made. They talk of "progress" ...such a pink and fluffy idea pointing dreamily to some kind of utopia but are we moving toward that (in the material world)? What has the age of enlightenment and industrialisation done for the "good" of humanity? So....is it progress? Rather to me it's just change. Labour saving devices strip us of parts of our humanity. They let us live easier but at what point does that become destructive?

It's difficult (for me at least) to relate my spiritual aspirations to the evolving material world situation. It's easier to side-line it, to accept that in my spirit trying to survive here I have to accept what befalls me (while having some control over the immediate). I can work toward making things better I can work toward a true balance in the many components of my humanity (as everyone can) I can climb away from the material process people call "ego" to a purer self and then try to dissolve that into the higher emanations of the Creator - is this what people mean by "ascension"? But in point of fact, I may pass out of this phase - life - at any moment. Nature won't miss me. I won't miss material nature. I will go with my collected experiences...I have visited very deep mysteries so I can ponder what use earthly experiences will be to me - probably not a lot but they might be signposts, recognitions, reference points.... and with that, perhaps start over.

About the video you linked. I was reminded of the strange experience when in my teens and first flying (in an airplane, you understand?!) and the cloud cover below with peaks pushing through. Most pleasant film. '

I always look at these reminders that where we are right now and where we where in the past and where we can be from that past when both the now and that, connect, they are in fact an opportunity to go deeper in some form that helps me move forward in some way past where I am looking and perceiving and wondering about life in everyway I tend to wonder like you do deeply in everyway, not just one way. This flying adventure sounds heavenly to me. The clouds and peaks how symbolic and lovely to feel. Can you expand on the pleasant feeling it awakened in you that time? Can you put yourself back there and share more?

If you have a chance, watch Koyaanisqatsi - life out of balance. It's a full-lengther though so if it pops up on one of your TV channels and you'd like to relax with a nice cup of cocoa and some bikkies.... Don't bother looking it up on Youtube. Some pillock has put the complete thing in reverse!
"If we dig precious things from the land we will invite disaster"

To me it's a beautiful film cinématically. Sums up human arrogance nicely.


Thankyou for sharing this. I will take a look.

"If we dig up precious things from the land, we might invite disaster or we might be pleasantly surprised,"
....
PS I know there's a god..... She's here in the shape of an edit button...[/

You shaped up well, showing me more in the edit. Funny how things in a more complete picture bring about more. Well for both of us in this instance. I was feeling I was stuck in response, then you added more and woop, woop here I am, I became unstuck and had something more to give. Creation seems to operate in these funny little ways of humans and life itself in everyway creation operates. Sometimes the unknown in me when I let go shows me more of an incomplete picture in me, rather than the complete picture outside of me that is very real to me in everyway of itself being real.

Oh I am glad I couldn't respond yesterday, for some reason I found myself having writers block reading through the first half of your response before you edited. I was really taking in everything you shared, but nothing would flow onto paper to relate back to you in response. So I kind of walked away and felt perhaps that coming back to this, it would simply be an acknowledgment of your sharing rather than needing to make it fit in me in some way to relate back, extend on or whatever. But here I am speaking out the process of all that as a response. Gosh life is funny sometimes in this way.

Then you added some more I see. So that pleasantly surprised me too.:)


Today for some reason it feels like I want to highlight some things you typed out, so I am going too.

And as your reading this don't be confused by the back to front nature I presented it. I am leaving it as it landed on the paper and how it wanted to be related in that order. :wink:


"The order of things and how the
I see them and place them into that order"-that might make an interesting thread discussion.

[naturesflow]

Hope is available precisely because promise is ever-present.

Promise represents the true reality underlying all life-activity and experience: that all is Spirit, the essence of Life itself, that the nature and tendency of Spirit in the physical is to evolve and Self-discover. .. including and significantly in and through each and every individually differentiated life, which in turn creates the possibility for progressive collective evolution.

The evolution of consciousness readily accessible in human life involves the predominance of mind and desire, which has to be surpassed and transformed by whatever method, into a spiritual aspiration in whatever form - which is the specific promise and opportunity of human life.

Hope is the conscious recognition and utilisation of that promise. It means identification with the divine, and therefore, the ongoing conscious deliberate consecration of actualising the spiritual, as a function of that promise by becoming confluent with it in the truth consciousness.

Cynicism on the other hand, is the mental/intellectual identification with mainly the dissatisfying and destructive results of the ignorant separative consciousness of desire-mind, which operates largely unconsciously, and is the generic circumstance which must be transcended as the challenge of human life.

Cynicism also involves a simultaneous mental/intellectual/rational doubt or even suspicion regarding the reality and efficacy of Spirit as the purpose and agent of positive change. It’s a basic quandary of human condition because of the predominance of mind: Hope of potential which resides within, vs. cynicism because of what lies without.

One may notice that animals are intrinsically ‘hopeful’ in their natural state. They don’t have the dualistic mind to refute that hope with the self-reflected duality of need vs. circumstantial adversity - they just persist in their desire. That’s what animal life is substantially about - and also how human life may be largely animalistic…when unconscious.

Conversely, it’s easy for humans - especially rational intellectuals - to become cynical because we are continuously surrounded by the dynamic surface appearance of countless results of desire-mind, a pervasive circumstance which is unfortunately largely self-generated, unless and until the inherent divine promise is engaged for self and world transformation.

This is why awakened spiritual people have a responsibility to themselves, to their own transformation, in order to become a practical example of the possibilities of Spirit - and its fulfillment in the physical for others, as a beacon of hope, and a continuation of the practical example of and for other spiritual aspirants - including and especially as exemplified by great masters before them. It’s part of a nexus of personal and collective evolution of consciousness.

The so-called law of attraction works here as well - the more hope, the more promise and the more possibility of real actualisation in the physical, both individually and collectively. Each one individual is therefore a potential accelerant of this potential change for fellow human beings...and the entire planet.

Hope is real because promise is real. Whether the former is utilised because the latter is recognised is a matter of deliberate intention and action, as well as collective concern.


~ J





Yes.

When we accept life as it is in us in everyway life is being, regardless of what life is being, hope then for me, becomes less a desire or need and more a deeper trust in me and my life and the process of it all as one source. I am alive. I am ever present. I am the promise. So I make the most of what life wants of me and what I want in this life regardless of what the external may create in me in every other way of itself.

I find now days staying present with what is, accepting it as it is, allows me to let go and move forward more naturally in that space of being and knowing I am here to be as I am. As life is. To get on with life and continue life as I can. The promise is our life and what is right now.

I feel that when people open and see a greater degree of suffering and understanding in the greater material view, in reflection, when hope is lost in this way, it becomes an opportunity to come back to our own personal individuation and piece of the whole and deepen in this way to build a more solid grounded sense of self in all this.

I personally move myself between the greater and myself for balance and grounding in this way. I listen deeper to the call of life in me and what it wants of me in everyway of being in this world. Many people stuck in the greater view of life lose hope, because they cannot find *themselves* in all this. It does become an overwhelming view and opens feelings that life is not worth living. The lack of hope or hopelessness becomes a personal tragedy in them from the over load of the external in this way.


The only way is to break it all down once more and regain hope through a new vision and new life view in you and your personal promise of life in you.

This is my experience at least in balancing hope and hopelessness.

And one that I see in many depressed friends who cannot go from the greater view back to the self reflective individuation beyond all that they see and experience for real.

"Life counts in everyway, but so do you"
I guess that is the part many struggle with that stay stuck in hopelessness.

[MIND POWER]

In the new age spirituality, it is becoming quite common for people to downplay or discredit humanity! And instead get their pants in twist over some extraterrestrial life, or the 4th dimensional tricksters! Who do nothing but try and take credit for human effort, and would not dare materialize themselves down here for too long! We are the only ones who can get through this, that's why we are here....

I am now going to set the record straight, for the pessimists out there! And all the dark souls watching just outside my visual perception, or maybe behind a computer screen....

Whatever box humanity gets put in, we break out of it! Because this is what we do, the most human of us! Have within us something called HOPE. Science cannot measure it, but they know its there! HOPE is the ability to believe in something outside of original circumstance no matter what! It’s what certain sections of society try and beat out of us! Because know it’s dangerous……

Forget your logic, never mind what they taught you in school…..

It is what deconstructs the illusion, it what changes matter! Some people are born with it more than others, and they are called crazy and delusional! Sometimes these people go on to change people’s perceptions and achieve great things, because they had hope in themselves when nobody else did.

(I am not talking fantasy, this is history ladies and gentlemen! i am sure everybody can name afew people!)….

And humanity has been doing this since the beginning of time, even though there may be those among us who want us to go the other way…call it evil or whatever. (Those people that seem to be in complete dissonance with nature and morality)…

And there may also be those who are willing to sell us out, but what those people need to understand is that they cannot escape karma. (Enjoy your momentary pleasure, have a drink on me? you are all in serious trouble!)….

So for me personally there is allot of Hope for humanity, only powerful people have powerful enemies! Only strong people have big challenges and obstacles to over come! And if you look at humanity under this kind of scope! It must give you a hint, at whom and what we truly are!

We have come along way, their are people suffering in this world in very bad situations. But even in that suffering, there are people with HOPE. So for those of us who are comfortable enough to post on a forum, never lose your HOPE.

It's probably true what the ancient Greeks said, its probably the last divine great power we have got left! it's what keeps us moving on, no matter the circumstance.

There are some very brave souls on this planet.

[Imzadi]

I feel that there is not only Hope for Humanity, but that WE are exceeding all spiritual expectations. I feel this in my heart, because I, myself as a part of humanity, has been transformed and continues to transform spiritually for the better... and I've witnessed this beautiful transformation in so many others as well! I cannot stare miracles in the face and tell it, "Sorry I don't believe there's hope for you."

It can be tempting to fixate on the negatives and become dishearten, but when we shift our attention to the Truth, Love, Beauty, etc... we see infinite possibilities for GOODNESS! Some people may call me an idealist, but to me, I feel like I'm a REALIST. Hehe. :)

[naturesflow]

Optimism over uncontrollable negative events is more useful than optimism over controllable negative events -Dr Markman

You cannot find ways to eliminate the negative in life if you always accentuate the positive-Dr Markman

You need to face the situation with a healthy dose of reality, and then make the best choices you can in light of what is present-Dr Markman

Rose-colored glasses rarely enable a realistic view-Dr Markman

[Floatsy]

Thank you to many of you, there are some very beautiful, beautiful posts on this thread and I am very grateful to each of you for sharing your thoughts and your viewpoints here with me on this humble forum.

It is something I grapple with, and have grappled with for a while now, and bringing it out here for discussion in the light of day - YOUR contributions - have helped me a lot in processing what I could not process thoroughly..

I will share my thoughts: I ... when I see people whom suffer, particularly those who cannot control things - the homeless, the sick, particularly the poor, I feel sadness for them. I feel an ache in the pit of my stomach...I wish I could do something, but I am usually too busy just living my life, and I recognize that...but I also recognize that the feelings I feel when I see people who are suffering is genuine, and comes forth naturally.

When I see this, I do desire, I do wish to be of service, in some way.

And yet..when I work, live, I see close up and personal how people can be. And I find so much ugliness interspersed with just most people just taking care of themselves ("as long as it's not my family, I don't give two hoots as to what happens to the rest of the world") - so that selfishness (which I also work within) is very pervasive.

Perhaps it as Spirit Guide Sparrow said, it is when good people do nothing that that tide worsens. I do not know. I really like Jyoti's perspective - it's a beautiful one to my mind.

I guess I would answer my own question as - Is there hope? I do not know, but we can only do what is important to each of us and the live the values that we share and care for in this world.

I do not subscribe to the belief that if this all goes belly up, oh well, we will be in another form. I once had a friend who was a Buddhist, and he answered a question of "If all is illusion, why do we care" with: "Because we respond with care and compassion to that which we pay attention to" - I took that to basically mean we live with the Spirit and Values that we are - to everything that we tend to. And if that is this human Earth and this planet that we currently share, then that is what we owe our care and values to.

Thank you again everyone, deeply grateful to you all for your sharings here.

[Floatsy]

Hope is available precisely because promise is ever-present.

Promise represents the true reality underlying all life-activity and experience: that all is Spirit, the essence of Life itself, that the nature and tendency of Spirit in the physical is to evolve and Self-discover. .. including and significantly in and through each and every individually differentiated life, which in turn creates the possibility for progressive collective evolution.

The evolution of consciousness readily accessible in human life involves the predominance of mind and desire, which has to be surpassed and transformed by whatever method, into a spiritual aspiration in whatever form - which is the specific promise and opportunity of human life.

Hope is the conscious recognition and utilisation of that promise. It means identification with the divine, and therefore, the ongoing conscious deliberate consecration of actualising the spiritual, as a function of that promise by becoming confluent with it in the truth consciousness.

Cynicism on the other hand, is the mental/intellectual identification with mainly the dissatisfying and destructive results of the ignorant separative consciousness of desire-mind, which operates largely unconsciously, and is the generic circumstance which must be transcended as the challenge of human life.

Cynicism also involves a simultaneous mental/intellectual/rational doubt or even suspicion regarding the reality and efficacy of Spirit as the purpose and agent of positive change. It’s a basic quandary of human condition because of the predominance of mind: Hope of potential which resides within, vs. cynicism because of what lies without.

One may notice that animals are intrinsically ‘hopeful’ in their natural state. They don’t have the dualistic mind to refute that hope with the self-reflected duality of need vs. circumstantial adversity - they just persist in their desire. That’s what animal life is substantially about - and also how human life may be largely animalistic…when unconscious.

Conversely, it’s easy for humans - especially rational intellectuals - to become cynical because we are continuously surrounded by the dynamic surface appearance of countless results of desire-mind, a pervasive circumstance which is unfortunately largely self-generated, unless and until the inherent divine promise is engaged for self and world transformation.

This is why awakened spiritual people have a responsibility to themselves, to their own transformation, in order to become a practical example of the possibilities of Spirit - and its fulfillment in the physical for others, as a beacon of hope, and a continuation of the practical example of and for other spiritual aspirants - including and especially as exemplified by great masters before them. It’s part of a nexus of personal and collective evolution of consciousness.

The so-called law of attraction works here as well - the more hope, the more promise and the more possibility of real actualisation in the physical, both individually and collectively. Each one individual is therefore a potential accelerant of this potential change for fellow human beings...and the entire planet.

Hope is real because promise is real. Whether the former is utilised because the latter is recognised is a matter of deliberate intention and action, as well as collective concern.


~ J





I like what you say about responsibility, J. It is something I run away from quite often but I feel great resonance in your thoughts and sharings here today.

Namaste.

[naturesflow]

I feel that there is not only Hope for Humanity, but that WE are exceeding all spiritual expectations. I feel this in my heart, because I, myself as a part of humanity, has been transformed and continues to transform spiritually for the better... and I've witnessed this beautiful transformation in so many others as well! I cannot stare miracles in the face and tell it, "Sorry I don't believe there's hope for you."

It can be tempting to fixate on the negatives and become dishearten, but when we shift our attention to the Truth, Love, Beauty, etc... we see infinite possibilities for GOODNESS! Some people may call me an idealist, but to me, I feel like I'm a REALIST. Hehe. :)


Where are you looking from and into?

Can you give us figures on this whole notion of so many others in your reality and heart view?

Lets get real Imzadi..

I have no issues with your own heart view and awareness in you and your own dance. The problem of rose coloured glasses becomes an issue when people are not looking directly at reality as one with their own view and heart space and seeing it as it really is in a more whole sense of reality.

[Imzadi]

Where are you looking from and into?

Can you give us figures on this whole notion of so many others in your reality and heart view?

Lets get real Imzadi..

I have no issues with your own heart view and awareness in you and your own dance. The problem of rose coloured glasses becomes an issue when people are not looking directly at reality as one with their own view and heart space and seeing it as it really is in a more whole sense of reality.
Yes! I've been waiting for your response! LOL We must be on the same wave length!

An example of why I have HOPE in humanity? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is You! For instance, I see you as a beautiful Being here to inspire and share your truth and wisdom! Your compassionate and loving nature flows (pun intended once again:) ever so brightly for all of us here to witness. And that is just a very small example. There are wonderful people in my city that I am familiar with that makes such a lovely difference in so many areas in the community in many ways. I know them because I enjoy being of service as well! I am fortunate enough to live in a vibrant city that allows for a lot of service, love, and compassion. I also meet wonderful people at the local Zen temple and I go to a Christian church as well. We have a strong interfaith community that are service oriented. One of my favorite groups is one that helps former convicts learn skills and vocations that enables them to reintegrate into society. There are a lot of good people there and their work is truly inspiring.

Yes! Let us get real indeed! :D

Having a positive perspective and an optimistic world view does not necessarily equate to putting one's head in the sand and neglect to address the things that needs to be balanced. I feel that rather, having inner Love and Light and positivism allows for more strength to create a better world. This means approaching a situation with wisdom, intuition, strength, and compassion. Please bear in mind that having a positive outlook does not equate to feeling indifferent to injustice and the plight of the suffering. It also does not mean lacking the ability to perceive injustice and suffering in the world. Instead, a positive outlook inspires creativity, compassion, strength, and power to solve problems.

I will give another example: I am a strong advocate against child abuse because I have been molested as a boy. As I grew older I realized the man that hurt me is still hurting other children. I was able to go to the authorities and we were able to arrest him and made sure other kids will not be harmed again by him. This situation was painful and hurtful, but I was able to grow, learn and evolve. I was able to assist the authorities because of the Love and Goodness within me and compassion for other children. I did not become bitter and negative, I became stronger and wiser. I am a stronger person and more loving because of the challenges. I like to think that is true for you and other humans as well. :)

Because of the strength that I found within me to help assist the other kids, I knew that there is goodness within me. I know that I could overcome anything and help make the world a better place if I allow the love and kindness in my heart to guide my way. So because of the recognition of this powerful LOVE within me, I imagine we all as HUMANS have that very same capacity to LOVE. I highly highly doubt that I am the only one carrying that immense LOVE within me on this planet at this very moment.

And just because I believe in my own goodness and the potential of goodness in YOU and other human beings, doesn't make me foolish or trapped in rose color glasses. It is possible to be loving and kind and wise at the same time. I see that in YOU. But alas.... this as you say, is only my own dance and heart view and I would not impose this view on anyone else.

Of course, there's a difference between blind optimism and having FAITH in humanity. The former is a refusal to see anything unpleasant or unsavory and living in illusion. The latter is simply understanding and believing in the Goodness, and the potential of Goodness that lies within every heart. Namaste. <3

P.S. I think you might enjoy this song/vid. It reminds me of you and captures the beauty of Nature in it's multifaceted flow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1NHXSR3R7I

[naturesflow]

Yes! I've been waiting for your response! LOL We must be on the same wave length!


Awesome. :cool:

An example of why I have HOPE in humanity? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is You! For instance, I see you as a beautiful Being here to inspire and share your truth and wisdom! Your compassionate and loving nature flows (pun intended once again:) ever so brightly for all of us here to witness. And that is just a very small example. There are wonderful people in my city that I am familiar with that makes such a lovely difference in so many areas in the community in many ways. I know them because I enjoy being of service as well! I am fortunate enough to live in a vibrant city that allows for a lot of service, love, and compassion. :hug3:

Ok so you see people, but wait, (I like waiting) where are your numbers to show me the rise of humanity in a greater sense. One city, one me, one you? Where are the facts of the greater/universal world wide shift coming to know this deeper and greater?

Yes! Let us get real indeed! :D

Why do people who resonate always end with indeed. There seems to be a common theme of certain few who do this. :wink:

Having a positive perspective and an optimistic world view does not necessarily equate to putting one's head in the sand and neglect to address the things that needs to be balanced. I feel that rather, having inner Love and Light and positivism allows for more strength to address things that needs to be addressed. This means approaching a situation with wisdom, intuition, strength, and compassion. Please bear in mind that having a positive outlook does not equate to feeling indifferent to injustice and the plight of the suffering. It also does not mean lacking the ability to perceive injustice and suffering in the world. Instead, a positive outlook inspires creativity, compassion, strength, and power to solve problems.


This I already know of you. I want figures to back up this knowing shift you see? Do you see? I want cold hard facts, real knowledge, real ideas about this shift of humanity in everyway to bridge these claims beyond your own reality..(no pressure, just my request...hehe )

I will give you an example. I am a strong advocate against child abuse because I have been molested as a boy. As I grew older I realized the man that hurt me is still hurting other children. I was able to go to the authorities and we were able to arrest him and made sure other kids will not be harmed again by him. This situation was painful and hurtful, but I was able to grow, learn and evolve. I was able to assist the authorities because of the Love and Goodness within me and compassion for other children. I did not become bitter and negative, I became stronger and wiser. I am a stronger person and more loving because of the challenges. I like to think that is true for you and other humans as well. :)

Being an advocate or being a peaceful loving warrior of spirit doesn't equate to the totality of life in everyway of the whole. So how can anyone know that the balance and shift towards the golden age of spirituality is upon us in a far greater way than any other time in history? Please get real about this.:)

Because of the strength that I found within me to help assist the other kids, I knew that there is goodness within me. I know that I could overcome anything and help make the world a better place if I allow the love and kindness in my heart to guide my way. So because of the recognition of this powerful LOVE within me, I imagine we all as HUMANS have that very same capacity to LOVE. I highly highly doubt that I am the only one carrying that immense LOVE within me on this planet at this very moment.

You are just one person like myself who has learned and loves giving back to those spaces you have learned. But the world is full of pain and sorrow, abuse and harm, how does that equate to a greater shift of humanity when you are only looking through the eyes of the divine love?

And just because I believe in my own goodness and the potential of goodness in YOU and other human beings, doesn't make me foolish or trapped in rose color glasses. It is possible to be loving and kind and wise at the same time. I see that in YOU. But alas.... this as you say, is only my own dance and heart view and I would not impose this view on anyone else. :)

But you still haven't offered me the greater view of humanity that you perceive is shifting and moving into this place of hope?

P.S. I think you might enjoy this song/vid. It reminds me of you and captures the beauty of Nature in it's multifaceted flow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1NHXSR3R7I

Nature videos, now your talking.

In loving thanks I will look later amidst the mounting inflow of videos coming into my space today that I am sharing I will look later at....lol.

I promise. :wink:

[Imzadi]

@ Naturesflow,

I am sorry, I misunderstood your words! As I always say, words are quite often fallible. You mean you would like to be presented with scientific data and statistics? Well, unfortunately I don't have the research resources to present you with scientific data that would be suitable to answer your question. I am not a mathematician nor do I have the ability or the research team to measure someone's level of spirituality and whether they have HOPE or otherwise.

As you said, I am merely presenting my own heart view. I can only say that from my unscientific heart view experience, I have been increasingly meeting people that are spiritually aware, or continue to work on their path and continue to do amazing work and has taught me a great deal whether live in person or online here, like yourself. Since this is only my experience, there is no scientific proof.

I never intended to declare a definitive scientific proof that there is HOPE in humanity, however, I have FAITH in humanity simply through my heart view and experiences and I have explain to you the examples of why I carry that view. But alas! I do not have numbers or a scientific device to measure another person's spiritual growth and HOPE. :icon_frown: (bummer right?) Maybe we might have one when the ET's finally arrive!

:wink: :hug2:

https://i.imgflip.com/nl12r.jpg

[Floatsy]

Dear Imzadi

Your words and example is an inspiration.

I salute and thank you for your sharings.

It reminds me also of the much reported butterfly effect - a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the world can affect currents on the other.

The Universe, if we are honest, is to most of us here, still mostly a large, huge mystery. It is the Unknowing that is perhaps the most honest of us all..and it is the known that demands and craves "certainty".

It is true that we may not be able to know every answer in the world, but we can choose our choices and responses to the world - and your one has shown great joy and immense beauty.

Once again, gratefully.

Floatsy

[naturesflow]

@ Naturesflow,

I am sorry, I misunderstood your words! As I always say, words are quite often fallible. You mean you would like to be presented with scientific data and statistics? Well, unfortunately I don't have the research resources to present you with scientific data that would be suitable to answer your question. I am not a mathematician nor do I have the ability or the research team to measure someone's level of spirituality and whether they have HOPE or otherwise.

As you said, I am merely presenting my own heart view. I can only say that from my unscientific heart view experience, I have been increasingly meeting people that are spiritually aware, or continue to work on their path and continue to do amazing work and has taught me a great deal whether live in person or online here, like yourself. Since this is only my experience, there is no scientific proof.

I never intended to declare a definitive scientific proof that there is HOPE in humanity, however, I have FAITH in humanity simply through my heart view and experiences and I have explain to you the examples of why I carry that view. But alas! I do not have numbers or a scientific device to measure another person's spiritual growth and HOPE. :icon_frown: (bummer right?) Maybe we might have one when the ET's finally arrive!

:wink: :hug2:

https://i.imgflip.com/nl12r.jpg


Yes data, facts and figures that give back up your claims, that we are in fact doing this as you claim WE are."but that WE are exceeding all spiritual expectations"-Imzadi.

Who is exceeding in all this we? I see who the we is now based on your own created reality, the we is you and others you see only. So never mind the facts and figures. I will rest peacefully here now knowing that it is not really that important to me. I just felt the need to ask you. :)

Did I sense a slight deviation away from your divine self in all this. Did you say "bummer" and a frown as well!...I am totally flawed now, ET style.

[Imzadi]

Yes data, facts and figures that give back up your claims, that we are in fact doing this as you claim WE are."but that WE are exceeding all spiritual expectations"-Imzadi.

Who is exceeding in all this we? I see who the we is now based on your own created reality, the we is you and others you see only. So never mind the facts and figures. I will rest peacefully here now knowing that it is not really that important to me. I just felt the need to ask you. :)

Did I sense a slight deviation away from your divine self in all this. Did you say "bummer" and a frown as well!...I am totally flawed now, ET style.

Oh oops! I must have been a bit overly ambitious! Bad Puppy! Perhaps a better rephrase would be, "WE are exceeding all spiritual expectations in my fallible human heart view." :wink: LOL Please forgive me, English is my third language. When I get excited I tend to not be too specific with my phrasing!
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/55422908.jpg

[naturesflow]

Oh oops! I must have been a bit overly ambitious! Bad Puppy! Perhaps a better rephrase would be, "WE are exceeding all spiritual expectations in my fallible human heart view." :wink: LOL Please forgive me, English is my third language. When I get excited I tend to not be too specific with my phrasing!

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/55422908.jpg


You naughty puppy! Stay in your basket until you are told you can leave..lol

[Floatsy]

Hope is available precisely because promise is ever-present.

Promise represents the true reality underlying all life-activity and experience: that all is Spirit, the essence of Life itself, that the nature and tendency of Spirit in the physical is to evolve and Self-discover. .. including and significantly in and through each and every individually differentiated life, which in turn creates the possibility for progressive collective evolution.

The evolution of consciousness readily accessible in human life involves the predominance of mind and desire, which has to be surpassed and transformed by whatever method, into a spiritual aspiration in whatever form - which is the specific promise and opportunity of human life.

Hope is the conscious recognition and utilisation of that promise. It means identification with the divine, and therefore, the ongoing conscious deliberate consecration of actualising the spiritual, as a function of that promise by becoming confluent with it in the truth consciousness.

Cynicism on the other hand, is the mental/intellectual identification with mainly the dissatisfying and destructive results of the ignorant separative consciousness of desire-mind, which operates largely unconsciously, and is the generic circumstance which must be transcended as the challenge of human life.

Cynicism also involves a simultaneous mental/intellectual/rational doubt or even suspicion regarding the reality and efficacy of Spirit as the purpose and agent of positive change. It’s a basic quandary of human condition because of the predominance of mind: Hope of potential which resides within, vs. cynicism because of what lies without.

One may notice that animals are intrinsically ‘hopeful’ in their natural state. They don’t have the dualistic mind to refute that hope with the self-reflected duality of need vs. circumstantial adversity - they just persist in their desire. That’s what animal life is substantially about - and also how human life may be largely animalistic…when unconscious.

Conversely, it’s easy for humans - especially rational intellectuals - to become cynical because we are continuously surrounded by the dynamic surface appearance of countless results of desire-mind, a pervasive circumstance which is unfortunately largely self-generated, unless and until the inherent divine promise is engaged for self and world transformation.

This is why awakened spiritual people have a responsibility to themselves, to their own transformation, in order to become a practical example of the possibilities of Spirit - and its fulfillment in the physical for others, as a beacon of hope, and a continuation of the practical example of and for other spiritual aspirants - including and especially as exemplified by great masters before them. It’s part of a nexus of personal and collective evolution of consciousness.

The so-called law of attraction works here as well - the more hope, the more promise and the more possibility of real actualisation in the physical, both individually and collectively. Each one individual is therefore a potential accelerant of this potential change for fellow human beings...and the entire planet.

Hope is real because promise is real. Whether the former is utilised because the latter is recognised is a matter of deliberate intention and action, as well as collective concern.


~ J





Hi Jyotir,

I responded to an older post of yours but can no longer find it so I will approximately ;) repeat myself here.

I just wanted to say thank you very much for your contributions here over the years. They are beautiful and I am very grateful to be reading your thoughts and contributions on this forum.

Namaste,
Floatsy

[Baile]

If the world dies, then we will all go elsewhere, true. But that does not mean this world HAS to die. I believe that options exist, that there are both bleak and bright futures for this planetBut the idea of the world dying and it being a bleak proposition, is of no consequence to the reality of Spirit. That is egoic emotional projection. There is no value in that. Spirit will continue to Be and will continue to manifest regardless.

[Imzadi]

[EDIT: This was a double posting error. Dear lovely Mods, please delete. >_< Thank you!]

[Imzadi]

Dear Imzadi

Your words and example is an inspiration.

I salute and thank you for your sharings.

It reminds me also of the much reported butterfly effect - a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the world can affect currents on the other.

The Universe, if we are honest, is to most of us here, still mostly a large, huge mystery. It is the Unknowing that is perhaps the most honest of us all..and it is the known that demands and craves "certainty".

It is true that we may not be able to know every answer in the world, but we can choose our choices and responses to the world - and your one has shown great joy and immense beauty.

Once again, gratefully.

Floatsy

Thank you for posting this thread. I learned a lot from what is said here by so many others and this allowed for me give a voice to something within that needed to be expressed. It was healing and cathartic. :smile:

https://recruitinginferno.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/deep-bow.jpg

[Floatsy]

:hug:

.........

[WabiSabi]

But the idea of the world dying and it being a bleak proposition, is of no consequence to the reality of Spirit. That is egoic emotional projection. There is no value in that. Spirit will continue to Be and will continue to manifest regardless.

It is of no consequence, and yet it is of paramount importance. Just as an ant can be seen as either small or large, just as an action may be viewed as good or bad, just as a person may be determined to be lucky or unlucky. The ant, the action, the person exist separate from these perspectives of them (not exactly separate, as these views comprise them just as they comprise themselves). And so the state of the world may be seen as bleak or bright, and that is just as it is. And if we decide in the moment to work hard towards what we consider to be a better world, that was meant to happen. And if we decide to sit by the wayside and watch as climate change destroys us, that too was meant to happen. And yet the option between two outcomes exists, and I believe that which outcome occurs is determined in the here and now. And yet any decision to make change by ourselves was also meant to happen. It all gets very complicated and contradictory. And whenever it gets complicated I can fall back upon the knowledge that all is meant to be, and then from there work towards what it is that I truly desire to do.

[Mr Interesting]

I'm on like my fifth day of building another shack out the back and I'm 54 next month and crawling and climbing all over this thing to get it built and the hurt is building up in my body but then each morning it's less so I go back out there and put in another day.

And I've always been like this where I basically look around for what's available and the make or do for myself what it is I think I need and always the actual doing of it is far more than I contemplated but I carry on and get it done anyway.

So then at my age there's pretty much nothing I can't do for myself on the smell of an oily rag and it's as if even whilst I'm nowhere near any frontiers I've ended up making myself into a pioneer.

Every so often within this all I look about at others and huge amounts of people are just hopeless. I mean they need a red carpet and a media release just to go down the path and collect the mail which in a sense is quite sad but it's totally their business if they want to be almost complete failures but have this money tap still pouring out what they think is the water of life.

What all this means I suppose is that what might be hope isn't something that floats about my head like a halo I have to keep following but is more possibly something deep in my bones that nudges me forward knowing what I obviously need to get ever more grounded in myself is always available in some form or other and it's just up to me to be able to see that reality forming, to pick out the obvious when it makes itself available to me.

And I'm not totally sure but I have a feeling I knew this when I was really young that I was reasonably poor and that being able to live life the way I wanted meant absolutely being able to do for myself and yes, on the edges might have been some notions of hope that this would all fall into places somehow but even then it was a balance between getting skills but also knowing how and why things went on the way they did... to the extent that getting anything done was always about 20% doing something but 80% doing it efficiently.

Is there then hope for humanity? How could it be otherwise? But for me it's far less about humanity coming into right and more about humanity seeing within themselves the way to be right. That then, in my eyes, is the transformation of hope almost from a candle held up in front of one to pass through the darks and more about knowing how to make candles and then passing them around when it gets dark.

[naturesflow]

I'm on like my fifth day of building another shack out the back and I'm 54 next month and crawling and climbing all over this thing to get it built and the hurt is building up in my body but then each morning it's less so I go back out there and put in another day.

And I've always been like this where I basically look around for what's available and the make or do for myself what it is I think I need and always the actual doing of it is far more than I contemplated but I carry on and get it done anyway.

So then at my age there's pretty much nothing I can't do for myself on the smell of an oily rag and it's as if even whilst I'm nowhere near any frontiers I've ended up making myself into a pioneer.

Every so often within this all I look about at others and huge amounts of people are just hopeless. I mean they need a red carpet and a media release just to go down the path and collect the mail which in a sense is quite sad but it's totally their business if they want to be almost complete failures but have this money tap still pouring out what they think is the water of life.

What all this means I suppose is that what might be hope isn't something that floats about my head like a halo I have to keep following but is more possibly something deep in my bones that nudges me forward knowing what I obviously need to get ever more grounded in myself is always available in some form or other and it's just up to me to be able to see that reality forming, to pick out the obvious when it makes itself available to me.

And I'm not totally sure but I have a feeling I knew this when I was really young that I was reasonably poor and that being able to live life the way I wanted meant absolutely being able to do for myself and yes, on the edges might have been some notions of hope that this would all fall into places somehow but even then it was a balance between getting skills but also knowing how and why things went on the way they did... to the extent that getting anything done was always about 20% doing something but 80% doing it efficiently.

Is there then hope for humanity? How could it be otherwise? But for me it's far less about humanity coming into right and more about humanity seeing within themselves the way to be right. That then, in my eyes, is the transformation of hope almost from a candle held up in front of one to pass through the darks and more about knowing how to make candles and then passing them around when it gets dark.

Was just reading your post and another article that linked me to your words and the article.

“There’s a profound mismatch between the genes we carry, the bodies and brains that they are building, and the world that we find ourselves in,” he said. “We were never designed for the sedentary, indoor, socially isolated, fast-food-laden, sleep-deprived frenzied pace of modern life.” -returntonow

The dirty little secret about exercise. “it is not natural.” We are designed to be physically active “in the service of adapted goals,” not to exercise on a hamster wheel - Illdari

Hunter gatherers get four or more hours of vigorous physical activity every day, but if you ask them they will tell you they don’t exercise. “They don’t work out. Working out would be crazy to them. They live." - Illdari

[Miss Hepburn]

I see there are people on this forum with service and Love in their hearts.
I am so excited.

I guess I am asking if you guys have groups you liaise with in real life too, or if
in the normal social circles you run in, whether you are heartened or disheartened by the humans you encounter :)
Just wondering I don't know anyone that I am disheartened by...trying to think....
oh, ok, this one Christian...
but, it's ok...she and her husband are on their Path...of judgment and self-righteousness , lack of forgiveness, oh well...
all is perfect.
All has it's perfect timing...all are drawn at the right moment...
so what....if people still go around murdering or stealing...it's part
of the Play, the Lila, the Cosmic Dance....same as it's always been...
like an Epic Movie...
filled with pain and triumph, grief and victory....
gosh,
this life is so deliciously exciting...especially for the Observer! :tongue:

[wolfgaze]

I see 'humanity' as an experience for the Soul...

My hope/faith lies with the Eternal aspect behind all these Earthly identities... With that in mind, I don't place much emphasis on the ever-changing conditions/circumstances of the physical/material world...

[Somnia]

gosh,
this life is so deliciously exciting...especially for the Observer! :tongue:

Are you sure you are not thinking of triple chocolate cake Miss Hepburn? :wink:

[FallingLeaves]

It all gets very complicated and contradictory. And whenever it gets complicated I can fall back upon the knowledge that all is meant to be, and then from there work towards what it is that I truly desire to do.

IMO All that happens was ok, but not all that happens is what was planned.

Even god said, for these things must surely come to pass (meaning the end of the world in fire and brimstone) and yet, if you but turn away from your own evil ways I will withold even this.

[Jyotir]

Hope is available precisely because promise is ever-present.

Promise represents the true reality underlying all life-activity and experience: that all is Spirit, the essence of Life itself, that the nature and tendency of Spirit in the physical is to evolve and Self-discover. .. including and significantly in and through each and every individually differentiated life, which in turn creates the possibility for progressive collective evolution. Not too sure about that. You bring in a nebulous factor - promise. In its true sense "putting forth" but in common usage for quite a time now it comes almost as a contract. You promise something and you commit to what you've put forth.

So, what do you mean with "putting forth" represents the true reality underlying all live activity?
The evolution of consciousness readily accessible in human life involves the predominance of mind and desire, which has to be surpassed and transformed by whatever method, into a spiritual aspiration in whatever form - which is the specific promise and opportunity of human life.

And now you link opportunity to "putting forth". Then....where is this promise from? Who or what puts it forth? I'm unsure even about the premise "evolution of consciousness". It sounds very knowing but what did it evolve from? And are you saying that consciousness has to be surpassed and transformed or that that is part of the evolution?

I had to leave it at that accepting it as your view but I'm unsure what the view amounts to. Hope, to me, equals a wish to a certain state constructed in the mind of the hoper. It may improve focus and a narrowing toward a single-mindedness aimed at something which may (in our culture) be considered good or bad. Hope for a better humanity doesn't entail promise to me. It is just what it is - hope.

Hello Lorelyen,

It’s really not much different than any contract, except that both parties are the same ‘Person’ in different guises.

Simply put:
hope : becoming = promise : Being

At the risk of repeating myself ;-) It’s a scheme of necessity - Divine Will - and fulfillment, through earthly experience towards realisation of Self by that same Being emergent in and through Life, including and especially our individual lives. We are potentially the self-conscious gnostic instruments of that Will, that Vision, which is what spirituality is, or is leading to.

Existence is consciousness. The premise (and promise) is that the divine consciousness intrinsically seeks to realise itself in and through life from which it emerges out of ignorance and division - a Cosmic conditional aspect of the All-consciousness - as the very nature and purpose of Life. This isn’t randomness as a principle in and of itself, but that perceived randomness is rather, the artifact of greater underlying intention.

Random is the mind’s ascription (and subsequent codification in various forms and conventions) in observing the surface appearance of incessantly mutating ignorant formations which are themselves generated by continued identification with that ignorance, including in and through mind (also ‘a’ consciousness) which is itself an ignorant form of cognition, and only one in many stages of the emergence of consciousness which happens to be peculiar to human beings. But there is something greater supporting all of that, as the basis for what may exceed it, or any transient limitation of that consciousness, and this is seen in a larger view beyond mind.

That is also why conversely, rational intellectual traditions (based in mind) do not support and even typically deride this notion as wholly dismissible…and many religious (or occult) traditions based in aspects of this vast continuum promulgate schemes which simply reinforce a singular or limited typal aspect which may be only part of a vaster more comprehensive scheme which itself is constantly emerging in the evolution of consciousness in the physical...

[Jyotir]

…

All is Spirit.

Spirit has willfully knowingly unconditionally sacrificed its omniscience and omnipresence, etc., and involved itself, into a conditionally ignorant divided oblivion of Self for the purpose of Self-discovery and Delight as a virtual infinity of inter-dependent multiplicity of differentiated (self-willed) individuals of and within One Life. That One Life of which we are inseparably part and parcel, is the vehicle for the emergence and evolution of consciousness, at first veiled, but gradually revealed and realised within and through life-experience. It is what is transpiring at every moment in every life, even in ‘inert’ matter...the emerging gnosis of Self.

These are simply different statuses of the self-same One Existence = Being and becoming. They are not mutually exclusive.

It is the same existence AND, the very same Being in essence - Consciousness of Self (static) is continually emerging through that evolution of consciousness (dynamic), by a tendency towards Self-awareness in becoming, what it already is in Being…but importantly in the physical, in and through differentiation.

So yes, the surpassing and transformation as transcendence of consciousness is not only part of that evolution - it is that evolution - in substance, essence, and activity. And again, in life, we are the instruments of it, as it.

Just observe the progression of your own growth and awareness over time. Is it simply randomly changing per se; or is it expanding, progressing, and deepening, etc.? And significantly, besides that, is there an increasingly recognised and utilised internal necessity which impels that progression - a will towards perfection, joy, gnosis in whatever form? That very urge to perfect and progress is also the emergence, but specifically in human beings it may become consciously recognized as a spiritual aspiration (which in earlier stages of the same emergence of spirit as personal ambition, which in turn emerged from an indolent inertia).

It is quite literally a putting forth. It’s a promise of Identity individually, in and through progressive emergence, a general evolution - the fulfillment of that promise, of and by that Identity by experience and realisation - becoming - that which we already are in Being - but haven’t yet, temporally realised it fully in the dynamic physical as individuals. The fact that ignorance is conditional and not permanent is evidence of this promise that we are universally gnostic beings emergently - because we are inherently.

The same Identity in different status, guarantees that each status is eternally available to Self and infinitely realisable by self. That is the promise - and premise - of physical existence. The hope which is derived from that promise, is simply the personal recognition on some level - in this case human - of that underlying Reality as divine purpose and possibility of life, which in terms of individuated life means opportunity…

[Jyotir]

…Of course, human life also provides the basis for any number of limited and limiting agnostic, rational intellectual, and nihilistic, etc. philosophies which circumscribe the ‘c’est l’absurd’ superficial (false) appearance of an irreconcilable ever-shifting ignorance and samsara. There are many such paradoxical schemes to subscribe to - paradoxical precisely because they appear irreconcilable, and that represents the circumscription of those schemes.

So intellectuals in an 'enlightened' era have rejected sin, salvation, heaven, and hell as exclusive from a rational model of reality, and instead built their own inescapable prison just the same - only it’s simply more cramped and clammy than Hell...or, it is a hell in it’s own right. But there is still something far better than that prison…

There is no ‘part’ of existence which is separate from itself - in any form of differentiation or any status of Being, including becoming. That is the promise - that it’s universally available, accessible, and realisable, because we ourselves are that Being in essence. That is the promise - and the opportunity of life. That is the key to the prison - that there is no prison. And hope is intimate with the inmate in the process of realising that… on an ongoing basis.

For human beings, hope is the (self) conscious participation in the general evolution of consciousness towards full permanent awareness of True Self, e.g., Divine, by the individuated being - what spirituality is - and not the disregard or lack of awareness of that promise by an unconscious identification with the (false) surface appearance of a separative ignorance, the dissatisfying results of which are simply the dynamic continuance of that very ignorance, and why it is so dissatisfying: because ignorance of true self is necessarily self-limiting, in whatever way, shape or form (e.g., the appearance of an objective circumscription/prison).

Promise is eternally available but has to be awakened into conscious hope to be fulfilled. This is a generic human experience, personally experienced upon awakening, which could be defined as the individual conscious recognition of the possibility of that promise...

[Jyotir]

…That same unconscious identification with ignorance, if mentally polarised as an 'conclusive' exclusion of the inherent possibility of progression, becomes cynicism.

Although we are intrinsically that promise of inherent Divine Nature, while identified unconsciously with ignorance, the promise yet unrecognized (although generically present), we may not utilise that promise as hope or faith effectively, for the intended purpose: fulfillment of Self-realisation, in and through whatever individual life-path(s), but simply re-processing ignorant formations as a re-cycling of self-limitation.

Hence, the mind’s cynicism: We are what we see (recognized ignorance) on the surface; consequent dissatisfaction - not what we are becoming (unrecognized gnosis) from within; spontaneous joy. It’s a question of identification.

I accept your view and its uncertainty as your prerogative. But I also see the uncertainty as coming from the possible dual utilisation of ‘hope’ for either ‘good’ or ‘bad’, even as that is variously defined by relatively 'good' and 'bad' criteria. As such it is random and therefore uncertain. But that uncertainty seems to be coming not from true promise of true identity, but from the limiting vagaries of ignorance, including the dual comparisons of their relativity.

Meanwhile, confluence with the divine will e.g., truth-consciousness dynamically manifested is always good in the true sense, because inherently progressive by nature, e.g. fulfilling of promise - truth consciousness - in the physical.

An unillumined wishful desire, substantially in ignorance, is quite different than a deliberately intentioned spiritual aspiration which is emerging from the inherent truth consciousness of Being - even if both are supported by the more comprehensive scheme. The innate promise I’m speaking of allows either, and everything in between as freedom - which (imo) is really the concept/word you seem to have substituted for ‘hope’.

People have the general freedom to wish for something, whatever it is, including more ignorance if they so choose - especially because of the ignorant means they may engage to cognise and enact intention…and they often do, especially in the unawakened state. If ignorance is substantially the means, ignorance is the substantially the result.

And yet that still leaves room for the spontaneous emergence of the available promise in any small measure by constant re-iteration of life experience through its innate freedom, density of multivariate experience, and relentless persistence and thoroughness.

Life is an exhaustive laboratory of inherent possibility, and from one perspective, that makes it difficult to see the meaning and purpose behind it - e.g., to see ‘the forest from the trees’ - and significantly, the singular inevitability of purpose (promise) intrinsic to and universally available in and through each and every aspect of all possibility…

...which miraculously becomes consciously recognised as available (hope) upon awakening, and is the very definition of awakening, and the definition of spirituality when actualised...

[Jyotir]

…That the ‘not good’ may also be chosen…indefinitely, is a fact of life born of that freedom which issues forth from that promise - that all is Spirit - and in the physical we are (even in the pre-awakened stage part of a larger progression) becoming increasingly aware of Spirit - the emergence of that Identity as a conscious identification. But first there has to be individual freedom within progressive stages of typal limitation (such as basic animation), and then as mentalised humans becoming disillusioned - self-consciously recognising - the dissatisfying results of that freedom in identification with ignorance which simply maintains ignorant limitation.

This is why getting ‘what one wants’ doesn’t always satisfy, but the promise of reality still supports that freedom as a basis for and transition to what may exceed it as a possibility, even if a personal ignorant desire is the origin vs. the divine will for the individual life.

Freedom alone doesn’t guarantee that progression - why the human world appears as it does as chaos, confusion, uncertainty, dissatisfaction. Because identification with freedom alone in ignorance = indulgence and perpetuation of that very same ignorance. That is the essence of samsara.

It is only in an awakened identification with Truth or devotion to the Highest does the inherent promise (latent in generic freedom) progress consciously in the individual as hope... the conscious response to promise. And that is what awakening initiates.

Awakening is the descent of truth-consciousness into the being, which typically becomes dissatisfied (disillusionment by contrast - illumination and 'shadow') to the point of actually asking for help - even if that asking is unconscious. And it’s that further asking - that implicit identification with the innate promise of an originating divine Will which is infallibly responsive to an actual dialog as Grace that takes the form of hope or faith - truth intuited - because within One Self, it is both the request and the response, as it was the ego’s choice and its dissatisfaction, or Spirit’s involution and evolution.

That is a putting forth from either perspective(s). Iow, we are both preceded by God and are that preception of God. It’s unavoidably available which is to say a promise, but not a mandate; it's what initiates the co-creation dialogue...because mandate would imply there is no choice and that we are simply automatons. But we are not compelled even if impelled. That we may fulfill the promise or surrender to it is our opportunity at every moment to willfully assume...no rush...Being is eternal, even if becoming in the physical is temporal and dynamic. It's surrender to truth-consciousness/divine will which eventually reconciles the two, and that is of course specific for every unique being at every moment.

Again, this really isn’t random even if subject to specific multifarious experience individually through enduring phases of life (including ego-preference in human), which in the collective appears to be random as an artifact of an internal principle at work behind it, a generic process of at first a dormant and then awakening spiritual aspiration. But because the promise of a general evolution of consciousness supports the freedom to choose even more of the same ignorance - and right now that is what predominates in the world for most people - it seems that this is the entirety of the scheme. However, it’s not.

This is why a conscious deliberate spirituality - e.g. deliberate identification with Spirit individually, is most significant as it releases that promise into the world in and through those who are identified as such, and makes it more conscious by example and inspiration, e.g., hope, which is of enormous consequence to the collectivity of human culture thus becoming further demonstrable and available to more individuals and so on…

Meanwhile, the perversion of that freedom to reject the tendency to evolve, in favor of a conditionally ignorant separativity, and importantly, for its continued maintenance and preservation - - when conscious, deliberate, and energized to action - beyond a mentally polarised cynicism alone, is generically what evil is in its various forms. It’s a willfully actualised cynicism, a deliberate disregard for inherent potential, a deliberate utilisation of the freedom of life to oppose and limit in some way its true Nature…the evolution of consciousness.

The persistent choosing of ignorance unconsciously in predominantly mental human beings, or mentalised animals called human beings is a significant phase of evolution and a passage to what lies beyond that mode, which relies on and enables an intrinsic individual freedom to do so. But that freedom was created for the purpose of experiencing evolution to full awareness of the Self of all Being - in human life the progression of a general evolution into a personal revolution of conscious positive transformation - - not the perverted use of that freedom to indefinitely limit any phenomenally and conditionally separate being from its own inherent fully gnostic Being...

[Jyotir]

...It’s quite normal for spiritual aspirants to be at first suspicious of and dismissive of once progressive schemes such as found in religion, which are for practical purposes - for some or many people - now obsolete, or clearly becoming so.

Likewise for various social and cultural conventions - including those born of ignorant desire and personal greed and ambition in its many forms extending into institutional/collective forms.

For many, these underlying structures and modes of behaviour are now also becoming clearly obsolete - even if they themselves once represented progressive modes which led out of previous obsolete regimes - and so they are gradually being surpassed as something more progressive displaces it...and we are the instruments of that collective displacement, just as the truth consciousness within gradually displaces our own ignorance.

The very dissatisfaction with these various status quo manifestations are a virtual proof of the promise of a relentless evolution of consciousness of which we are part and parcel.

The freedom inherent within that promise also allows for everyone to progress in their own way, of their own necessity, and especially by the support of the increasing emergence of the divine will in and through that process, which subsumes all of it - the promise, the hope, and the fulfillment.



~ J

[Lorelyen]

I did read through these posts, Jyotir, but they're full of assumptions, contradictions, paradoxes and declarations that are incorrect so I finally gave up. Some statements make no sense as they stand. It became a game of spotting the next instance (among those I've listed) rather than absorbing a message.

I won't comment further on your style except to declare that discernment of the/your message is out of the question therefore. Excellent word-spinning but it emerges more akin to an academic treatise attempting to amalgamate a varieties of philosophies and early psychologies. No doubt the answers to my question(s) are embedded somewhere but I'm only ready to do so much work to uncover them.

Ponder for a moment: "That same unconscious identification with ignorance, if mentally polarised as an 'conclusive' exclusion of the inherent possibility of progression, becomes cynicism."
What same ? How can unconscious have identification with ignorance? What do you mean by "mentally polarised"? What are the poles? You say "as an conclusive exclusion of the inherent...etc. but how is that a polarisation? Abstruse terms but what do they mean when strung together?

It's possible that I'm alone here in failing to make sense of it so if someone can rephrase it in different terms I'd be most appreciative.

"Spirituality" in a vacuum is fine for academia but barely useful on the street. Spirituality has to be applicable to living life here in animate physical form to me - pragmatic - purposeful.

...

[Floatsy]

Jyotir,

In immense gratitude for that which you have written here and offered for Us All.

Blessings,
floatsy

[Floatsy]

[QUOTE=Lorelyen]

Ponder for a moment: "That same unconscious identification with ignorance, if mentally polarised as an 'conclusive' exclusion of the inherent possibility of progression, becomes cynicism."
What same ? How can unconscious have identification with ignorance?


Dear Lorelyen,

I have no ability to speak for Jyotir, but if I might share a perspective or two, I would be much obliged :hug2:

From the quote, it seems that the words are "unconscious identification with ignorance", not unconscious as a noun.

i.e. Ignorance is defined as "not knowing" (subject matter)

Ergo, it is the unconscious identification (i.e. the identification with that which is not ..let's tentatively say .. true) - unconscious because one is not fully cognizant of what one is doing - perhaps even not being able or aware of the full set of choices available to oneself

i.e. the identification of that which is not true because of not knowing the truth of the matter (ergo, ignorance)

i.e. the unconscious identification WITH IGNORANCE

It's kind of a cycle.

I have something to attend to so please forgive this rambling piece - I will return later to fix it up and elaborate more.

Bless,
floatsy

[Floatsy]

Lorelyn,

I've decided that it is silly for me to intervene in a conversation between you and Jyotir. Whilst I found much appreciation, I can understand that people see with different eyes and taste.

Blessings to you.

f

[Lorelyen]

Lorelyn,

I've decided that it is silly for me to intervene in a conversation between you and Jyotir. Whilst I found much appreciation, I can understand that people see with different eyes and taste.

Blessings to you.

f

Likewise to you, Floatsy. There are no right answers. But thank you for your attempt to explain how one can unconsciously identify something with something. It was just one point, though.

"Promise represents the true reality underlying all life-activity and experience" started it as it didn't make sense - a bold statement but meaningless to me. Promise? Represents?
Still doesn't but I've let it go.

Thanks, anyway.

Pax tecum.

:smile:

[7luminaries]

Floatsy, agreed.

Well said Jyotir...particularly the 2nd post (the long one)...I really appreciated that one. This is a topic whose time is long overdue.

Lorelyn, here's my understanding of Jyotir's post off the top.

It's about first the unconscious turning away, and then about the consciously chosen turning away. And it's about the turning away not only from the problems of society, or the pain and suffering of others.

The height of what Jyotir refers to as evil is the turning away from your own truth, your own centre, and thus of your own fullness of humanity. An adjunct of this would be the evil (i.e., misalignment) that occurs with the general turning away to the truth/acceptance of others and more broadly of all that is. As I understand it.

Moreover, honouring the fullness of our humanity includes both temporal body (dense emanation of spirit) and eternal soul (ethereal emanation of spirit as individualised consciousness) -- all is of spirit and all is sacred -- and acceptance of our interbeing with one another and with all that is.

Peace & blessings,
7L

On the Turning Away - Pink Floyd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbMOkdG8AY

[Mr Interesting]

This one guy found me and eventually got here where I am and did a kind of photo essay thing on his blog which some other journo chap, who I supposedly went to art school with decades ago, found that blog, and he's like a prize winning photo guy, and he's coming over tomorrow morning with a writer...

In the interim me and the first guy went up country to see another of my friends tucked away on a farm and having built his castle from the discarded and set aside is free to be whatever he chooses... and it was a good day!

But already this second fellow seems to be wanting to make me conform to a set of ideas which seem to be those olden days and if I were at all concerned with making a play for recognition I would adjust myself to his story even yet untold.

I feel no need to though. I am as I am, and will be what I will be and I don't need to buy into shelf stored glories. It is interesting then that this new fellow who comes along tomorrow all professional and garlanded somehow might not be even able to see what I might be offering. As if because he brings so much of what he thinks it should be that he may not even see what it is and so begrudge his own efforts to find something that will fit his idea of what it is.

And therein the first guy kinda warmed me that this other fellow might open up my secret kingdom to light like a laser that could destroy it and make me a Martyr somehow but then I wasn't that worried... if anything I wondered if I could even be bothered with the offer of money making it seemed to bring forth. So this new Hope, this revitalised way of being in the Earth, and on the earth and through the Earth seems to somehow bring it's own understanding... it doesn't need protecting, it doesn't need to be tough, it is itself and from outside it almost looks like wasteland with efforts to gift wrap it too expensive... time will tell.

[Floatsy]

Likewise to you, Floatsy. There are no right answers. But thank you for your attempt to explain how one can unconsciously identify something with something. It was just one point, though.

"Promise represents the true reality underlying all life-activity and experience" started it as it didn't make sense - a bold statement but meaningless to me. Promise? Represents?
Still doesn't but I've let it go.

Thanks, anyway.

Pax tecum.

:smile:

Thank for teaching me these words! Pax tecum. Nice :hug3:

I really love Jyotir's expressions and his understanding of what is (with precision from my reading). Some of the sentences I do have to re-read but I believe that I see where he is coming from and love the way he expresses it.

I agree, we pick up what we want. Not for any other reason, just to add this one point, fwiw :D

"Promise represents the true reality underlying all life-activity and experience"

I wonder if it could be interpreted as (at least this is how I kind of intuitively grasp it):

Someone once said that horses will run to their death, animals do not have the same self-consciousness that the human mind possesses. Animals LIVE fully - they are alive and each day, each moment, they do what they do. Trees grow, flowers blossom and fall again, seeds scatter, bees pollinate. I wonder if this is what it means that promise represents the true reality. There is not one bear who sits there wondering if we will all die, but they live as they can. Humans however have a unique self-consciousness and brain activity which brings within it the psyche of cynicism and hope (as my thread reflected :) ) Birds make their nests, or not. They do not hope for a better day tomorrow, they are living each moment, in that promise of life.

FWIW and thank you again for teaching me these two beautiful Latin words, dearest Lorelyen! And your graciousness.

floatsy