Buddhism and Apathy

[e-ma]

Hi everyone,

My Dad got into Buddhism about five years ago, and it has changed his character a lot, it has provided a lot of relief and meaning to his life.

The only bad thing I can say is that he now seems completely apathetic with everything - his answer to everything is just to detach and not get involved. He seems to have given up on a lot of things, such as socialising (which he always struggled with anyway) - it's like Buddhism has given him the permission to finally give up.

He no longer feels any emotion towards anything, and is completely passive. If something incredibly unjust happens, he behaves in an unusually detached and passive way.

I know that Buddhism encourages peace and detachment, but is this actually a good thing? I respect what my Dad's doing, but sometimes it just seems too far removed from the rest of us, like he's not there at all any more.

[mikron]

Hello e-ma this is mikron I try to share the best I can ! Looking upon the Soul Level , you are touching the stars that connect you both Father and Son! you must see this as a bridge of Light (soul) and you yourself must learn about Buddhism and find a way to be very creative in reaching out to your father let him guide you and you guide him ! Look at some books a good starting point to discuss with your father is " The four Noble Truths" think of your minds eye as being Crystal clear creative exploring ! the solution here !

Namaste
Mikron !

Ps: Ema you be the bridge of Light !

[e-ma]

Thanks mikron, I am his daughter, hehe, but I really understand what you're saying. I do understand some about Buddhism - he sparked my interest and I studied the Dhammapada for some months. It was a great time, and very peaceful and I did learn a lot. However, I decided that it wasn't for me as a devout, dedicated lifestyle, I wanted to come back into the noise and the chaos! Which is where I'm at now. I guess I just wondered where the boundary between peace and apathy lies. My brother emigrated to Australia yesterday, and it was like my dad had absolutely no feeling towards him at all.. like it wouldn't matter if my brother was here, or over the other side of the world, or on the moon, or not here at all. My dad just said, "I never worry about anything." It just made me wonder.

But I do respect where he's coming from and I understand that a lot of the Eastern philsophies say, "A wise man laments for neither the living nor the dead" (I think that is written in the Bhagavad Gita). Perhaps it's just my personal choice to want to be connected in the way I do. Perhaps it will cause pain and suffering eventually and I'll give it up! Who knows.

[mikron]

Hi E-MA I am sorry I did not but you are a cosmic mirror for me mikron and yes you see the wisdom I spoke off and you already where doing such ! I really like that becuase I know all along it was a though you already had ! remember the 4 noble truths!!!!!!

Namaste mikron

[e-ma]

Yup, you understood me :glasses2:

And I guess on a soul level there is no problem here. It's more of a culture clash, between the Buddhist way and the modern West in which we live. The Four Noble Truths do explain it all.

[mikron]

E-ma much Light to you like life riding a wave of Light , I posted an message in the general forum about the Spiritual Initiations and the focus is the 3rd Initiation ,because the Soul level is available to a person it infuses the personality and shines its Light so bright! its ASTONISHING does not even to it justice ,The Soul level is Limitess and the world today is so confused and the Soul will help all as it helps itself and all the world is better !

Even the essance of Buddah , would be wise to goto that message on the spiritual initiations and share the Light ! becuase he is the father aspect of the acient wisdom teachings becuase in our sphere of influence He is the first person and highest person to go through the spiritual initiations so he guides us all.

Namaste mikron

[Pathwalker]

hey e-ma, i'm sorry to hear about your father. I have some experience on this matter as i've been there myself! I practiced Buddhism for a long time without any peripheral guidance and found myself quite detached to life and generally depressed as a result. What i found helped is that i realised that i was attached to detachment if you understand what i mean. Your father must understand that we can still experience feelings of love and joy (what kind of a life would it be without such things?) in fact we are encouraged to experience them fully (such is the way with the painful experiences) however after such experiences we let go and don't attach. Your father needs to create his own meaning in his life and open up to it, rather than detaching and shutting down- otherwise he will be stuck in a downward spiral.
I hope this helps, my heart goes out to you both.
Love & light
Pathwalker

[angelicious]

Hiya e-ma,

From your description so far, of your father, I can totally relate to him and his wonderfully peaceful, detached attitude. I fully understand the Buddhist ways of dettachment and to the best of my ability, practice it in my daily life. And by the way, the Bhagavad Gita & Dhammapada Rock!

I admit, I'm dynamic, in character, than what you've described your father to be. Is he totally unfeeling? Does he display happiness though? Is he suffering? If he's not suffering then he's reaping the seeds sown in Buddhahood.
If he's happy & fulfilling his duties to lifes activities, family etc. as well as his Faith in laymen terms, then I think that's wonderful of him. No one can be expected to show emotion, if they are not feeling it.

The life I live is full of joy and activity whilst still being detached. To me, detachment is about participating fully in lifes experiences and activities whilst knowing that when and if it's all gone in this material existance, there's always one thing remaining, which is, in Buddhist terms, our Buddha-Nature.

With the Right View (from the Noble Eightfold Path) of life, that is, by seeing life through the eyes of Buddha - with wisdom and compassion, and following the rest of the Noble Eightfold Path, perhaps we might all be like your father, lol. Good on your dad for living life in the peaceful way of the Buddha, smiles.

[Pathwalker]

I agree, good on e-ma's papa if he has in fact reached such a peaceful level. However from what you wrote e-ma, it does seem that he isn't fulfilling his role (such as avoiding social situations)- i think you had it spot on when you said he may be using his buddhism to give up activities which he may have struggled with. The fact that your brother just came to his new home and that your dad showed little emotion is an indication to me that he's not opening himself to the positive experiences nor the negative and that concerns me.
I wish you much luck and feel free to hit me back to let me know how you guys are doing
Cheers
Pathwalker

[Ubiquitous]

Ok so firstly I should mention I am not so well versed in the ways of Buddhism and exactly what it entails, my knowledge is limited to several conversations with my husband who is a Buddhist. Whilst Buddhism is not for me personally, I have not problem with the faith itself, rather I have a problem with the issues it can cause as a person is trying to adopt a new belief set and way of living without fully understanding what they are trying to do and how to go about it. From what I can tell Buddhism is not simply something one can read about on the internet and then adopt, the principals are far too ambiguous for that. When a person takes the aforementioned steps, or similar, it can cause a wealth of problems for the person involved and those they care about.

E-ma I really do feel for you and what you are going through, I went through similar with my husband (boyfriend at the time) when he was trying to integrate detachment into his way of living. It’s so hard to see someone you love becoming removed from all that is going o around them, especially when it concerns issues relating to those who are closest to them. In my experience the act of detachment seems to be more of an avoidant behaviour, of both positive and negative experience…. I’m guessing it comes in more useful for the negative. How best to avoid situations/things that are going to effect us negatively but to simply just decide that we are going to ‘detach’ from them and compartmentalise them into a place where they no longer have the ability to effect us. Yes they do exist but they become separate from us, not touching us and giving us the bonus of not having to think/deal about them….in essence we get to avoid them. Very, very bad!!! Beacuse they all get filed away in the undelt with pile, that continues to grow as time goes on. What happens when all this undelt with stuff breaks through the wall we have put up, it dosn't just trickle through but is a tidal wave that threatens to take us under.... this is not a matter of if it happens but when.

Your dad seems to have found the perfect vehicle for engage in avoidant behaviour, Buddhism and he even has the years of scriptures (texts) to validate his choice. It would be my guess that in the past your dad wouldn’t have been a person to tackle issues head on, rather the type who hopes that they go away in time? Now he just has found what he thinks is a valid reason to do what he has always done and to a greater extent. As for being happy where he is, a joyous place…pfft well of course it is because it is all under his control without any of the ups or down the rest of us enviably face. All of us at some point would like to be in that position, although most of us realise that whist we avoid the bad we pay the price of sacrificing the joy, good and love that is at the other end of the spectrum.

As for the showing no reaction over a long period of time is it possible that your dad is depressed?? Almost all the descriptions you gave are typical waring signs of depression. As Buddhism is a very “heady” religion anyways, to then to have a already emotionally/mentally vulnerable person retreat further into the heady space is dangerous!! They loose all perspective of the outside world and then the world they live in slowly starts to implode….and hey presto a major case of depression ensues.

My advice is to try and talk to your father about your feelings and what you see is happening, maybe you will get through, maybe not but at least you have tried. That said everyone has the right to live their lives the way they want, but they also get the consequences of those choices. Monitor your dad and look for any warning signs of serious problem and step in if required, other than that you must accept the things in life you can’t change, no matter how much or hard you try. Good luck and I sincerely hope that all works out in the end.:smile:

[angelicious]

Hiya,

I guess I'm seeing it from a Buddhist point of view. It's fantastic for me to read the point of views of the partners/families of Buddhists & their ways. I think it's perfectly normal to feel out of sync with this due to the difference in "perception" as I too, use to feel this way & wanted someone to BE who I wanted them to BE in order to make me feel more comfortable. It didn't work then, never could work, so I stopped trying to control & change others only to discover that true change began within me. To change the world, change yourself first. Actually, I reckon by changing the way you perceive your world, your world changes instantly. Try to see it with a positive outlook, rather than a fearful one.

If your father is not forcing his religion down your throat, harming himself or others, is miserable etc., then where is the problem, hmmm?

The thing with Buddhism is that it's primary goal is to end all suffering by first, putting an end to it within oneself first through the various Buddhist practices (detachment being one of them). It's about living an egoless existance.

It really does sound like your father does not suffer, thus, is egoless. Emotion is of ego-based in my view, which lead to suffering. Emotion is the reaction stemming from beliefs.

Because it sounds like the partners and family of Buddhists are "suffering" over who their Buddhist practicing significant others choose to be, then who seeks to change here? As it seems to be what is the issue here. Acceptance of another persons beliefs goes a long, long way to peace all round.

If your father accepts you and what you do or practice in life and your beliefs, can you accept his?

[tiltjlp]

Hiya,

Acceptance of another persons beliefs goes a long, long way to peace all round.

I sure wish everyone here felt this way. It sure would make this an even better forum, and make the staff's job much easier. I've never understood how intolerant people can still consider themselves to be spiritual minded.

John

[angelicious]

I sure wish everyone here felt this way. It sure would make this an even better forum, and make the staff's job much easier. I've never understood how intolerant people can still consider themselves to be spiritual minded.

John

Hiya, yeah, I reckon tolerance and acceptance is misunderstood and usually perceived as rolling over and giving up who you think you are, as well as agreeing to a life lived by another. I think tolerance and acceptance means not judging ourselves and other peoples ways of living which includes religious practices, and being supportive by not trying to inflict change upon one another. Change is a natural process of each individual and is their right to undergo change only when they feel the need to change for themselves.

Here for instance - one Buddhist, one Non-Buddhist and one of them "perceives" and judges the other as wrong. If you change the perception, this misunderstanding and judgement, which leads to a person wanting another to change, you will have one Buddhist, one non-Buddhist. Is it just me that sees no problems in being a Buddhist or a non-Buddhist?

Which reminds me of a post I read, of a Zen proverb I've heard before. It goes: "Before enlightenment, fetch water, chop wood. After enlightenment, fetch water, chop wood." Or something like that, lol.

[angelicious]

....it does seem that he isn't fulfilling his role (such as avoiding social situations)- i think you had it spot on when you said he may be using his buddhism to give up activities which he may have struggled with.

Hiya Pathwalker,

Lol, whatever religion you are or not, a social life is an optional extra, it's not gonna effect who you are if you have one or not. Most people prefer their own company, it's of no real concern, is it?

Out of curiosity, how does giving up activities that are a struggle considered a bad thing? Go on, humour me, lol.

I mean, why live for drama, when you can live for peace. I know, my life is drama-less and I certainly won't chase drama to prove I'm alive, tehehe. And, do you really think if someone is apathetic, they must have a problem, or be defective or be depressed?

If this is so, we'll have to medicate the whole human race with anti-depressents if they show signs of being peaceful and passive and apathetic, lol.

[Pathwalker]

Hello Angelicious, cool nick by the way!
FIrst of all i would like to say that i possess no intention of humouring you, as im in agreeance with Ubiquitous here, e-ma's father is in a potentially harmful situation and it's no laughing matter. Have you ever heard the expression that "no man is an island"?. Are you aware of the interconnectiveness of all sentient beings? For as long as humans and animals have been on this planet, we have been working together for our personal and global evolution. Even talking on these forums is considered a social activity nowadays. If we were all to give up everything that we considered a struggle then the world would halt where it is, this is where spiritual practice becomes apathy. I'm not trying to convince you that everyone has to have a social life, as even the Buddha attainted enlightenment in isolation. However just as some food for thought, was the Buddha emotionless? I've been where e-ma's father has been and it's not the way and from my understanding a common place for those new to Buddhism without any help from outside, fortunately i had people (in my social circle) that helped pull me out of the place i was in and point me in the right direction. I view e-ma's father as limiting his responsibility by detaching from everything (improperly) and as a result he has impaired his own freedom so that he might not even enjoy his son coming home.

[Ubiquitous]

Hi again,

I think that you missed my point, the issue wasn’t being out of sync with my partner, he IS still a Buddhist. Rather my point was that problems can arise when a person adopts a belief set without the proper guidance to implement it the way it’s supposed to be implemented. Lets face it you have literally millions of writings on Buddhism, all encapsulating a certain (and differing) mantra on how the life of a Buddhist should be lived, all going about following that path with varying techniques and thus results. As with any type of religion without guidance from those who know more we are more than likely to make mistakes to our and others determents….even Buddhist monks have a master to help guide them on their way, even after years of extensive training… so I’m thinking that reading a few books, surfing the net is not only dangerous but also the quick fix version of Buddhism… and by referring to the label of Buddhist one is not detached and ego free any way!

As for it being ego-less I would think that the statement that ‘I never worry about anything” would have to be in fact ego driven. The fact that e-mas father not only identifies with this statement and then owns it would make me think that he is not only attached to it but also that the ego is using it as a way of defining himself, thus against the principals that he is integrating into his life. In my opinion a statement such as the one e-ma’s father has made is the ego talking….. a statement such as worrying does not serve a useful purpose or why worry about things that are the way we are… are less driven by ego. I do wonder however given the society we live in, the lives we lead whether we can truly ever say we are ego free. It’s all good for monks who meditate 18 hours a day, live out of the cities and basically are not encumbered with the details of day-to -day living to detach and to become free from their ego. How is it possible for the rest of us, without taking drastic steps like relocating and changing our entire way of life, to be totally detached and ego free. In relation to the detached part, in reality is that what people crave, or is it the being free from suffering? To be detached is to love without attachment, surely to love is also to be attached?? If the people we loved most were to leave us surely we would feel that loss? Would want to feel that loss, as much as it would hurt? If their was no sense of loss then is it love at all? In my opinion it is what we attach to that is important, and how we go about it that makes all the difference.

I am all for people following the paths they choose and completely respect and support that. My point is you can’t cut corners and do it yourself, you need guidance and help… you don’t just wake up one day and decide to be a Buddhist (attachment) it just doesn’t work that way, it takes years and years of studying and training… I’ll think you find those who follow Buddhism in the way that it was intended wouldn’t call themselves Buddhist, rather they live their lives following the ways of Buddhism.

Oh and as for the comment on whether social isolation is a good thing or a bad thing…. I would think that the answer would be obvious. No man is an island and no person can survive long periods of being alone, it not only is unhealthy but also dangerous to us psychologically (many, many scientific and published studies on this topic)…hence the solitary confinement in prisons as a way of punishment. If were to live isolated is that living at all, what do you experience and what do you miss out on experiencing? Buddhism teaches balance and freedom from duality, surely if those factors are missing then we are not practising Buddhism at all?

As for the medicating the enire human race for showing signs of depression, no not for showing signs, we all exhibit them at one point or another... but when these signs are maintained and become part of the persons day to day functioning then yes it is time to worry! It is irresponsible to project the view that this is not a possibility, as I suggested, not a fact. People get depressed, people need help, not all people but some... and to suggest that to exhibit signs of depression and to leave them unmonitored as a precaution is just silly... if it was a loved one of yours would you be giving the same advice?? Its easy to to say just to accept it when it isn't your loved one and it dosn't effect your life, try living it, try watching it..... and then tell me there is no reason for concern at all! As for the actual medication part, very last resort in treating depression and not one I personally would advise unless really needed (i am in the field), their are other options that are not only more effective but treat the reasons for depression rather than the symptoms!

[Pathwalker]

Just on another note angelicious, in response to your comment about how it seems that e-ma's father does not suffer thus must be egoless. This conclusion doesn't logically follow as he doesn't experience the dual opposite either which is love and joy. He has simply closed himself down to suffering instead of opening himself up to both joy and suffering, experiencing it, then letting it go. I believe that Buddhism stresses acceptance of both pleasure and pain, not inacceptance.
Regards
Pathwalker

[inspiration]

Hey E-ma

i got a real feel through your post for some of what i did to my loved ones when i first started my (conscious) spiritual journey. Thankyou for the insight. I now know how others could have helped me at the time

Your father is on his own path.

Whatever you see in him also exists in you - you could not see it otherwise.

What are you apathetic about?

I've always found that if i handle things in my universe they disappear in others........

Its just a viewpoint but i hope it helps.

Kindly,
inspiration

[angelicious]

Hey E-ma

i got a real feel through your post for some of what i did to my loved ones when i first started my (conscious) spiritual journey. Thankyou for the insight. I now know how others could have helped me at the time

Your father is on his own path.

Whatever you see in him also exists in you - you could not see it otherwise.

What are you apathetic about?

I've always found that if i handle things in my universe they disappear in others........

Its just a viewpoint but i hope it helps.

Kindly,
inspiration

And a fantastic viewpoint that is Inspiration, I bet this perception, relating to how the universe works, serves you well as it does me.:smile:

[angelicious]

…hence the solitary confinement in prisons as a way of punishment. If were to live isolated is that living at all, what do you experience and what do you miss out on experiencing? Buddhism teaches balance and freedom from duality, surely if those factors are missing then we are not practising Buddhism at all?


Hiya,

Well, I don't know what alone means for you but do you really view it as a prison?

I see, solitude as a blessing, a chance to further get to know me (the Buddha-nature within) without interference or others impressing themselves on you. You get to meditate in peace and much more, solitude rocks! Company is fantastic too, sharing the views of others etc. Yet in solitude, you get to just Be, there's so much more freedom in that don't you think?

I see why Lord Buddha attained enlightenment in solitutde, and I'm Catholic.

Also, thought I best mention that the word "worry" describes another form of "fear." I think it can be said that fear is a spiritual retardent. Thus, when someone says, "I never worry about anything" I would think people would embrace such a liberating attribute than see fault in it. I guess it's not the darkness that is feared, rather, it is the light that is feared.

[Ubiquitous]

That is my point exactly, solitude is something that needs to be done in moderation, otherwise it becomes a self imposed prison. I am all for taking alone time, again it is something that everyone needs to do… although too much alone time is not healthy. I personally treasure the time I get to myself, that being said it is not at the total exclusion of all things external. Have you ever heard of the middle path I wonder? It’s all about balance, you are neither the majority of the time alone or surrounded by others. Freedom in confinement is interesting. When is freedom too much? Easy when it dictates our lives.

It is my opinion that this is an extremist view and if history has taught us anything extremist views rarely are good for the human race as a whole. Surely the fact that his daughter is suffering should be a cause of concern of e-ma’s dad, does Buddhist not teach us compassion and to recognise the pain of others? How can one person be so blinded by their faith and their goal that the suffering of others does not touch them? Is it right, no. Is it the work of the ego, hell yes! To become enlightened you must be attached to the idea of enlightenment for the majority of the journey, otherwise how do you obtain it? So would it be so bad to remain at least somewhat attached to the people closest to us? Buddhism teaches (depending on how you interpret the texts) us unconditional love is the purest form of attachment, surely then it is not something to be avoided?

Just because Buddha reached enlightenment one way it does not make it the only way. In fact how many other people have you heard of that have headed down that exact same path and reached enlightenment…. I mean real enlightenment here not just a case of wishful thinking. I can’t come up with a single person. If the only way to reach enlightenment is to hurt those I care about then you know what it isn’t a goal that I want for myself… how can one be selfish and ignore the suffering of others and obtain true enlightenment?

Ohh and BTW I’m not Buddhist either I have an mind and open heart and I am my own person, I follow my own path and do not attempt to follow the paths taken by other people, because they are not me… I’m willing to do the hard yards lol.

Oh and worry and fear are not the same thing... fear can cause worry yes and vice verca but whilts being linked they are not identical principals. All I did was take what e-ma had said and comment edon it, not interpret what I think it means. Let me ask you do you think e-ma's dad's behaviour is that of a even partially enlightened person??? Without a doubt? If not maybe advice outside of this assumption would be helpful for e-ma?

[angelicious]

Hiya, ubiquitous,

Ummm, you might want to read E-mas posts as the full picture of this situation hasn't been given, only her judgement of her father and his religion. In saying that, I'm unable to answer a lot of your questions because they don't relate. So, all the fear, worry, pain, mental dis-ease, suffering etc. being expressed or seeking expression here, is based on unreality, a judgement of another person. We don't know for sure what is going on with ema's father. I'm optimistic. :D It's my view, that forum posts reveal more about the postee & how they feel about the topic than anything else.

E-ma did mention in a very real way (which seems to be overlooked) that Buddhism has provided a lot of relief and meaning to her fathers life. So, is it selfish of him to pursue a Buddhist religion? I think not.

E-mas "suffering" that I referred to, is suffering of an internal nature, inner conflicts. Buddhist practices are just one way of settling this inner conflict as this conflict is not viewed as our true Buddha-nature.

I think you'll find this can only be overcome by being compassion to oneself and not by changing someone else or "blaming" them and their faith for the conflict. There's a big difference between internal & external expressions of compassion too. But I think you already know this.

Religions, in my view, don't encourage something and then discourage it. And just a thought, I bet Buddhas teachings didn't say, "Hey, practice detachment from material things, and the phanomenal world, but stay attached just a little." That just doesn't make sense. Yeah, seems to depend on how Buddhist texts are interpreted and understood I guess.

I can think of other humans who are like Buddha, enlightened ones, Jesus being one of them. Enlightenment can be obtained by any Man, woman, or child at any time and space. There's nothing that states otherwise. Enlightenment and egolessness awaits us all, just a theory. I'm just as confident that this can be real, just as others are confident that this can be impossible.

As for taking the exact same path, no, thats the beauty about faiths and religions, different paths to the same fulfillment. Different does not equal wrong. Different just is.

And, I really do perceive there are no rules, boundaries, corners, or hard yards on the path to enlightenment except for the ones we create or attract through beliefs. What appears as struggle to one person, may be a walk in the park for another. If that's the case, then perception (how you see the human life you live/experience) is really the only difference. Buddha & Jesus, different teachings and practices that lead to the same enlightenment.

the big question is, with any religion, how far are you willing to go? To the point of enlightenment? Why do many fear the quest?

[inspiration]

And a fantastic viewpoint that is Inspiration, I bet this perception, relating to how the universe works, serves you well as it does me.:smile:

Yes, it works perfectly when i actually apply it.......it's a path out of creation, right and wrong. judgement etc. Its a way of taking responsibility for what you're experiencing.

"There is nothing within that isn't without . There is nothing without that isn't within." I think Buddha or someone else pretty switched on said this.

Thanks Angelicious i'm glad it resonated with you

[Ubiquitous]

How is the one person’s judgement on a situation unreality? I would think that it would make it that person’s reality would it not. You say it is unreality, your judgement on the situation, therefore doesn’t that make your judgment unreality too?

Yes e-ma has said Buddhism a lot of relief, but the questions that remain are: relief from what and at what cost? Is it selfish for him to go about seeking relief I guess depends on the situation. A more dramatic version of this belief would be a person committing suicide… is that selfish? Are they really thinking about all the pain and suffering that they are going to cause or just about ending their own pain. But I digress, is it selfish of him to practise Buddhism? Nope, it is selfish to shut himself off from his family and cause them pain through deliberate actions? My answer to that would be yes! To trot along on one own merry way and to continue to do so with disregard to the hurt and suffering they are helping to create is not only self serving but also the most selfish act a human being can commit, putting ones own happiness above that of all others.

Surely compassion if experienced in the internal state then can make it’s way to the internal… compassion is compassion, you can’t just decide it to be internal or external, it is a way of being, internal and external are thought to have no separation.

Tell me how does one become enlightened then if they are not attached to the idea of enlightenment in the beginning? I believe Buddha also said that he was in the world but not of it. Thoughts?As for Jesus being enlightened I agree, though if you read my post again I was talking about different people needing different paths and not following in the footsteps of others because it worked for them. Not I can’t name any other enlightened people.

Do I fear the quest to obtain enlightenment, nope. The better question is so I want that for myself and for me the answer is no way. From what I can see it is an endless quested mostly utilised by people who have a myriad of problems and don’t want to have to deal with them and are looking for a cosmic out…. Though not all granted. People tend to use these quests to falsely provide their life with meaning and hope, rather than looking inside and addressing the real issues. One day Bob decides his life sucks… quick fix detach from it all and adopt the goal of becoming enlightened…. Bye bye personal responsibility and hello spirituality (not in the true sense) that will solve all my problems. Then we wonder why we suffer in the end, ill intent produces ill results. Though as their journey progresses it is hopeful that they will realise that their inital intent wan't pure and just self serving and modify why they want to achieve their goal. Just my opinion though and with respect to the beliefs of others! :smile:

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

The few people i know or have met that come closest to being "enlightened", hardly understand the concept, and have no self-awareness of "enlightenment".. they are simple people, living well..

Be well..

[angelicious]

Tell me how does one become enlightened then if they are not attached to the idea of enlightenment in the beginning? I believe Buddha also said that he was in the world but not of it. Thoughts?

Its my view that it's not that the seeker is attached to the idea of enlightenment, rather, it is enlightenment that is attached to the seeker. It is the nature of spirit, of Buddha Nature that seeks to express itself through man. Thus....

"I am in the world but not of it" - An expression of Spiritual Being having A Human experience.


[SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman][quote=ubiquitous]One day Bob decides his life sucks.....quick fix detach from it all and adopt the goal of becoming enlightened

[Ubiquitous]

To me that means that they are open to fully experience the world, but they are not attached to that experience. So where does detachment fit in there? When we detach do we really experience? Buddha said the way to enlightenment is not by depriving ones self. So to deprive oneself of fully experiencing things is supposed to lead to enlightenment how?

[SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman]Are not all of us spiritual beings in some sense, whether we practise spirituality or not

[Pathwalker]

Angelicious the notion of enlightenment essentially means freedom, from craving, the circle of life, death and reincarnation. Your idea that enlightenment is attached to people is opposite to logic. You make it sound as though enlightenment is a being that attempts to take over us and make itself known instead of being a synonym for freedom. How can freedom attach when by it's very nature it is free from attachment? I feel that this comment represents a view designed to distort truth and confuse people and doesn't stand up to any matter of logical investigation. Logically speaking, many of us would agree that many walkers of the Buddhist path would not stand up to the trials to reach enlightenment were they not attached, don't quote me on it (perhaps a poll would be helpful here?) :smile: And based on such an assumption, it seems preposterous to believe that many Buddhists on their way to enlightenment would pursue such an elusive goal when it seems that enlightenment is reduced to nothing but more attachment.

[angelicious]

It's cool Pathwalker, I'm good with everything either way.:smile: That's tolerance. Understanding, I feel, is knowing oneself, and knowing that what is good to one person, may not be good to another, here and now. And that in itself is all good.

I view every living thing and everyone as essentially spirit that is already free & enlightenment and everything pertaining to that aspect. I do my best to express that essence within and appeal to that essense in others. This, in my view, is the purpose of life, to express this spiritual state, to it's fullest potential (not at halves) in every aspect of living life.

Detachment isn't about avoiding the world and the life you're living. It's about letting go of what is not of you, like delusions, and expressing what is of you, like spiritual essence. It's about letting go, in a grasping sense, of all the things that you don't get to take with you when you leave this human existance in/as spirit e.g. material possessions, and everything of this world like trees, family and friends, and everything of the human physical form and the phanomenal world. Attachment to these things, no matter how big or small the attachment, simply leads to suffering either through emotional pain, physical pain, or mental pain. And suffering simply is not our birthright, enlightenment is. It's learning to know the difference.

Why get upset over something when you know getting emotionally upset, isn't going to change it. In my view, you can express all of the emotions, this is healthy and fine. Yet it's projecting all of your emotions onto others that is discouraged. More and more people are living an enlightened life (whether aware of it or not) and spiritually because they are aware of this principle. They opt for constructive expressions through service to humanity (whether aware of it or not).

[Pathwalker]

Hey Angelicious, fair enough. Honestly it sounds like your in a good place and it's not my place or anyone else's to tell you that you're wrong. As you said it's up to the individual to decide upon their own, especially in matters of faith. I'm glad that you said that detachment isn't about avoiding life because i'm in agreeance with you there, i think we just interpreted the situation with e-ma's father differently, i view him as not practicing proper detachment and you do. The truth is if he too is genuinely happy where he is and his beliefs do not harm himself or others, then it doesn't matter what we or anyone else says it wont change anything.
Love n Light
Pathwalker

[Muddler]

Last night I had an unfortunate encounter with a Nihilist in the chat room. I doubt if he was a Buddhist. The Dalai Lama's teachings are quite at odds with his (I think) world view. Buddha taught a gentle way of compassion & seeking for oneness. There is no apathy or complacency in it. Sometimes I think Buddhism is the most misunderstood following in the world. Ok, then I watch the news & think it may be Islam.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Buddhism was the path Buddha followed.. what is YOUR path...

Be well..

[angelicious]

The Dalai Lama's teachings are quite at odds with his (I think) world view. Buddha taught a gentle way of compassion & seeking for oneness. There is no apathy or complacency in it. Sometimes I think Buddhism is the most misunderstood following in the world.

Hiya Muddler,

I like to think I've got a good understanding of Buddhism (practicing it is a different story) and I feel The Dalai's a fantastic example.

And yeah, there is no apathy or complacency in the teachings of Buddha. I feel they are merely surface expressions of the physical form, therefore these surface expressions of apathy & complacency are of no real importance, they mean nothing. It's the spiritual acts, the Buddhist practices of gentle compassion & unity that matter the most. These practices can be done with or without emotion or complacency.

[Pathwalker]

I don't believe the path can be practiced without emotion, emotion is a fundamental part of human existence and through them we can grow and eventually ascend to the point that emotions simply come and go like the ocean and we don't get dragged with them. I don't view emotion as something that is to be turned off, but to be accepted and to grow from. I guess this is the same thing we've been discussing continuously in this forum but i suppose our views on Buddhism are essentially different. This is how wars get started eh? I believe the way i'm interpreting Buddhism is correct, and you believe yours is correct, perhaps it's just different parts of the elephant we are feeling?
Cheers
Pathwalker

[angelicious]

This is how wars get started eh? I believe the way i'm interpreting Buddhism is correct, and you believe yours is correct, perhaps it's just different parts of the elephant we are feeling?
Cheers
Pathwalker

Be whatever part of the elephant you want to be, we'll still be part of the same elephant. War is never the answer. You can have the victory here, I'm more inclined to do as the Dalai Lama and be exiled rather than fight a war. Peace out, it's all yours. :hug3:

[Pathwalker]

Angelicious, i think you'll find if you read my post again you'll find that i wasn't expressing a pro-war attitude, nor was i seeking any form of victory during this discussion. I was simply expressing that often wars get started over differing religious perspectives of the same scriptures. It's strange that you seem to believe that this is a war? and even stranger that you truly believe that you will be exiled if you do not participate in this thread. As for the elephant, i believe you misinterpreted my post, i was referring to the Buddhist metaphor of the path where we are all touching different parts of the same proverbial elephant - those touching the ears will liken it to large rubber leaves, whilst those touching the legs will liken it to oak trees etc... The point was that we are all essentially touching on varying aspects of the same truth a view which accomodates varying personal beliefs and contradictions which i was likening to our respective differences in opinion. The perspective expressed by myself was a call to unity, not a declaration of war.
Thank you
Pathwalker

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Occasionally, i do sense a degree of apathy in the Buddhist beliefs.. many tend to feel they are destined to many recycles of this life until they "get it right".. this leads to a certain resignation, even if they are actively seeking to correct their journey.. "one mountain, many paths to the top".. the reality you create is the one you live, if your beliefs are solid and true.. so, for the aspiring Buddhist they will stay on the wheel until they change their beliefs or satisfy their believed conditions.. for the Christian, they will go to the heaven or hell of their own creation.. the Universe is not discriminating in that way, if that's what you really believe, it will make it so.. The choice is yours.. My own choices lead me to a path that is closely approximate to the basic Taoist philosophies, it just seems to work..

"Do not walk in the footsteps of others, seek what they sought.. on your own path"..

Be Well...

[Pathwalker]

TzuJanLi,
I must say i agree with you there. There is certainly a sense of resignation when confronted with the idea of many, many more reincarnations to go before freedom from the karmic wheel. But in true Buddhist form, even this is an opportunity in which to let go of. As you said, the choice is ours, we can dwell in this resignation, or use it as fuel to take the next step on the path. I definitely agree with you about the universe not discriminating in terms of what we create. And we must choose from the highest wisdom within ourselves. However where does that leave one who has faith in many religions when they die, do they for example (a follower of christianity & buddhism) go to heaven (or hell) for a brief while before they are reincarnated?

[Muddler]

I think my sadness is that there are proferred Buddhists who believe that, because they believe they have grasped Buddha's teachings, they are free from the cycle of rebirth. Buddhism (or any other spiritual pursuit) cannot be fulfilled cognitively. I ceratainly don't agree that resignation arises from the thought of many reincarnations. This is to miss the point of reincarnation.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

The resignation is to the reincarnations themselves.. that they are bound to them.. freedom is a choice away, not lifetimes..

Be well..

[Wind of Grace]

For me, freedom is a given. Before incarnating we are free, while incarnated we are free, after incarnation we are still free. Nobody is shackled or tied to anything. The concept of being bound to a specific number of incarnations to free ourselves of our "Personal Karmic Wheel" leaves us in a state of constant personal evaluation and self judgement. What if you feel that you are perfect just the way you are? Not good, not bad...... just you, exactly the way you are in this very moment, and every other present moment that you live? What if your choice was not to come back to Earth to live another adventure in a human body? Who would tell you that you have to return?

If you know that you are free, then you are free..........


Love & Hugs, Wind of Grace xo .... :hug3:

[Aero]

Hello friends

It is my belief that if we do good things and think good thoughts. Practice the best you can on the path that you are on at the moment.
Then karma and rebirth will take care of themselves.
Its sometimes interesting to speculate and talk about karma and rebirth.
Just try not to let it cause strife and suffering in your life.
After all, suffering of all kinds is what the Buddha wants us to eliminate in ours lives.
Sadness or getting angry are emotions we should have under control, but we should not lack of emotions.
The Buddha wants us to be kind and love and feel joyful. Maybe even have fun and laugh.
I cant imagine the Dali Lama smiles as much as he does and has no emotions. Lol.
In my opinion, those Buddhists that seem to be showing no emotions are just at a part of there path that maybe they need to go through.
You could try putting on a big red clown nose and walking up to them and see if they smile.

:hug:
Cheers
Aero

[Pathwalker]

Hey WindofGrace, i reckon you call that enlightenment! :smile:
Aero, i agree with you all anyone can do is the best they can how can anyone do any more? And so be it if it takes us many more lifetimes to reach enlightenment, as long as we're doing the best we can we can sleep easier! I like the big red clown nose idea, i don't think even e-ma's dad could resist such humour!
Pathwalker

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

The Universe unfolds exactly as it should, perfect in every nuance.. it is only our perceptions of it that color it with imperfection..

Be well..

[kundalini]

Greetings..

The Universe unfolds exactly as it should, perfect in every nuance.. it is only our perceptions of it that color it with imperfection..

Be well..

Hi TzuJanLi,

This, I find, is very true. So drawing such a conclusion from your statement, can it be said that Enlightenment is simply having the ability to see every single moment as perfection itself and that every response that one makes in relation to their outer environment as perfect too? Is Enlightenment simply the ability to sustain a perception of perfection in relation to the Universe? What are your thoughts on this?

K.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Within perfection is harmony and chaos, each perfectly complimentary.. while seeking the clarity to perceive such perfection, i find that people favor alignments with one or the other, harmony or chaos.. Yes, the seeker's journey is no less perfect than the perceived destination.. though perceptions may have an unbalanced (harmony/chaos) bent to them.. in the grand scheme of things, the Universe will balance itself, regardless of our perspectives.. i take heart in the notion that regardless of our mental masturbations, we are a perfect reflection of the Universe.. we simply enjoy the "game" way too much sometimes... you know, the "game" where we pretend things are all screwed-up and only WE can fix it...

Be well...

Be well..

[kundalini]

HAHA!

That's great TzuJanLi, thank you for offering me your perspective! I know exactly what you mean! It is certainly a perception in and of itself.

K.

[Maranda]

The Universe unfolds exactly as it should! We mess it up by thinking too much. Going with the natural flow of our life energy is what makes life as it should be.

Edited to remove impolite language. SF Staff.

[Muddler]

TzuJanLi, yes, how wise! I love your allegory. It is so true. But understand that there is perfect harmony in the chaos. Simply find the respondant chords. Maranda, we couldn't mess the universe up if we tried! We are all part of this glorious web of I AM that we really understand so little of, yet loves us so much. There is freedom in the playground of God.

Edited to remove impolite implied [****] language. SF Staff

[Aero]

I edited this post.
Things constantly change and some things on this threat changed, so I needed to edit what I said also.


Metta

Aero

[Wind of Grace]

I have moved one of my responses in this thread to another area. It is now in the section named "Strong Opinions & Discussions". I graciously took note that the Universe is neither male nor female. In reality it is both. I have changed my reference to the Universe by using the word "it".

I was using a type of reference that many use when they say "Father Sun" and "Mother Earth". Ofcourse, neither of these terms is fundamental. They are simply descriptions used by many Native American tribes. In reality, everything is created and animated by the Whole Energy(Male & Female combined) which has several different words that are used to describe it. It is the Energy of "All That Is" which many refer to as Source.


Love & Hugs, Wind of Grace xo.... :hug3:

[Maranda]

"The Universe unfolds exactly as it should! We mess it up by thinking too much. Going with the natural flow of our life energy is what makes life as it should be."

"Edited to remove impolite language. SF Staff."

Folks, I would like to apologise. I can't even remember what I said. But I will be more careful in future.

[tiltjlp]

Folks, I would like to apologise. I can't even remember what I said. But I will be more careful in future.

The staff and I appreciate that Maranda. Just a reminder to everyone that we do have children as members, and besides, this is a spiritual forum. So the use of profanity, or ever what is often called "street or gutter talk", really isn't suitable here.

John