Book of Job

[Clear Blue Sky]

I am reading through the Book of Job in an English Translation Bible. I understand that it may have originated from a story written in Ugaritic text, and that some say the Hebrew language used in it is 'intricate' in that many places it could be interpreted several different ways.

I was wondering if any here familiar with the Hebrew scripture could highlight any significant areas where the Hebrew understanding of Job differs from English bible translations. Or significant areas considering the range of possible meaning of the Hebrew text.

Thanks.

[Moon_Glow]

Hi Clear Blue Sky - My grandfather was a theological translator for the Brazilian Bible Society and the American Bible society.

He was able to read and write in many languages and translated both the old and new testament from the traditional Hebrew to English, Portuguese, Spanish and many other languages.

My grandfather was kick out of the American Bible society because they felt his translation of the word "virgin" as relating to Mary in the New Testament was incorrect. The word "virgin" translated in the ancient Hebrew to "young girl" and that did not sit well with the American Bible Society.

I know that you are writing in regards to the book of Job but this thread caught my eye and I figured I would share my experience.

Just to put it out there my moms family is Jewish so I do have an understanding of Judaism as well ( I hate when people comment when they don't know where I coming from)

[Clear Blue Sky]

Moon Glow, thanks for responding.

Your grandfather may feel vindicated. I have come across a number of commentators and translators admitting that the 'virgin' translates to 'young woman.' Also the bible I use sometimes says that things can have two meanings.... like a statement of Job that could read to support either bodily resurrection or disembodied afterlife.... which is why it is good to check with the "source" so the two groups keep each other from changing things too much after thousands of years. :)

[AHIYAH]

Moon Glow, thanks for responding.

Your grandfather may feel vindicated. I have come across a number of commentators and translators admitting that the 'virgin' translates to 'young woman.' Also the bible I use sometimes says that things can have two meanings.... like a statement of Job that could read to support either bodily resurrection or disembodied afterlife.... which is why it is good to check with the "source" so the two groups keep each other from changing things too much after thousands of years. :)
One must put all the facts on the table. Fact one Job wished he could've recorded his words Job 19:23 so the question remains " who wrote the book of Job. It's commonly accepted that Job supposedly happened around the time of the Torah and some believe Moses wrote it, one must ask why it isn't included in the Torah. In any case Job 26:7 shows Hebrew poetry. It's basically when two ideas are related. This isn't the case all the time. If one could identify the use of "Northern Skies over empty space" and how it relates to the Earth being suspended over nothing you'd see it is talking about the Northern Kingdom. The northern kingdom being scattered into all the Earth.refer to the Hebrew word Tohu mentioned in B'reisheet/Genesis to get a better pic.

[Clear Blue Sky]

Thank you for revisiting this thread. It was a thing I did before bad troubles and tribulations of my own began..... (helped me brace for them lol).

My belief is that the Job we have was written from a clever Hebrew poet, seems to have lots of intricate meanings, puns, symbolism of a master Hebrew linguist.... and also that this Hebrew literary wonder was an adaptation from an older Ugarritic text of a Babylonian story.

I had a long study of it but the moderators put it into the 'my space' section because no one else responded to it.

One thing I saw was that Behemoth was reference to Job, and Leviathan was reference to God. (Job 40 and 41).

of Leviathan his underside is jaggd patshards leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge -- similar to how cuneiform was written by pressing marks into clay.

[AHIYAH]

Thank you for revisiting this thread. It was a thing I did before bad troubles and tribulations of my own began..... (helped me brace for them lol).

My belief is that the Job we have was written from a clever Hebrew poet, seems to have lots of intricate meanings, puns, symbolism of a master Hebrew linguist.... and also that this Hebrew literary wonder was an adaptation from an older Ugarritic text of a Babylonian story.

I had a long study of it but the moderators put it into the 'my space' section because no one else responded to it.

One thing I saw was that Behemoth was reference to Job, and Leviathan was reference to God. (Job 40 and 41).

of Leviathan his underside is jaggd patshards leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge -- similar to how cuneiform was written by pressing marks into clay.
Interesting, i would say that these beasts are either extinct or are allegorical beasts, i mean the bibles mention other beasts with six wings, eyes looking in every direction etc. i prefer to take them as allegorical beasts.I really wished it would've started from the other end of the book. We could look into this Satan character which just means Adversary and why is he/she allowed to present his/herself with the sons of God. Maybe because the Satan/Adversary is a son of God. One must wonder why there are two names missing in the line up of the Tribes of Yaakubah mentioned in the book of revelations. I can almost(that's ALMOST) guarantee that when ever you come to the line up of the tribes of Yaakubah why there are names missing and keep an eye on the order of the names in which they appear in any given line up. You may or may not be aware of this and I'm only pointing them out. Since we have already come to this Behemoth have a look at Job 40:15
15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
"I made with thee" maybe thats the enemy within. and "he eateth grass as an Ox" the word eateth is in the feminine. I'm just pointing things out. Remember Nebuchadrezer? Same thing happened to him. I don't know if that relates and it probably does. I can't say much else atm.

[Clear Blue Sky]

Interesting, i would say that these beasts are either extinct or are allegorical beasts, i mean the bibles mention other beasts with six wings, eyes looking in every direction etc. i prefer to take them as allegorical beasts.I really wished it would've started from the other end of the book. We could look into this Satan character which just means Adversary and why is he/she allowed to present his/herself with the sons of God. Maybe because the Satan/Adversary is a son of God. One must wonder why there are two names missing in the line up of the Tribes of Yaakubah mentioned in the book of revelations. I can almost(that's ALMOST) guarantee that when ever you come to the line up of the tribes of Yaakubah why there are names missing and keep an eye on the order of the names in which they appear in any given line up. You may or may not be aware of this and I'm only pointing them out. Since we have already come to this Behemoth have a look at Job 40:15
15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
"I made with thee" maybe thats the enemy within. and "he eateth grass as an Ox" the word eateth is in the feminine. I'm just pointing things out. Remember Nebuchadrezer? Same thing happened to him. I don't know if that relates and it probably does. I can't say much else atm.


Yeah, Nebuchadrezer 7 years passing over eating grass like the ox, his back drenched with the dew of heaven until he learned that God is the God of all.... very Job like. One of Job's lines when he talked about 'wild people' in the wasteland who ate wild herbs and whom Job 'disdained to put with his sheepdogs'. like the fate of Nebuchadnezzar. the mystic William Blake did artwork panels of Job and his daughters. One of the last is of them all reconciled and happy, lounging around with the sheepdogs :)

the behemoth was stubborn. the turmoils raged against his mouth, like Job's friends and their chaos of philosophies raged against Job's words -- indeed they insult his mouth and call babbling words torrents etc in the discourse. Behemoth -- made along with Job. Stubborn and upright like Job... and yet his maker can touch him (like God can touch Job). Placid resolved and untroubled despite the trouble.

then of Leviathan it is spoken how he cannot ever be tamed or controlled or defined or harnessed -- like God's indominatable ways and will. of course the ancients knew of God through the stories of God... stories pressed into the mud of cuneiform tablets. I think also maybe a lot of the Leviathan imagery is similar to other Babylonian Baal war god imagery.

I don't doubt that the writer was inspired by some actual living animal.... but with not much travel and no photographs in those days... heck in the middle ages they assumed whales had ears, and the unicorn was invented from the description probably of a rhino.

[AHIYAH]

Yeah, Nebuchadrezer 7 years passing over eating grass like the ox, his back drenched with the dew of heaven until he learned that God is the God of all.... very Job like. One of Job's lines when he talked about 'wild people' in the wasteland who ate wild herbs and whom Job 'disdained to put with his sheepdogs'. like the fate of Nebuchadnezzar. the mystic William Blake did artwork panels of Job and his daughters. One of the last is of them all reconciled and happy, lounging around with the sheepdogs :)

the behemoth was stubborn. the turmoils raged against his mouth, like Job's friends and their chaos of philosophies raged against Job's words -- indeed they insult his mouth and call babbling words torrents etc in the discourse. Behemoth -- made along with Job. Stubborn and upright like Job... and yet his maker can touch him (like God can touch Job). Placid resolved and untroubled despite the trouble.

then of Leviathan it is spoken how he cannot ever be tamed or controlled or defined or harnessed -- like God's indominatable ways and will. of course the ancients knew of God through the stories of God... stories pressed into the mud of cuneiform tablets. I think also maybe a lot of the Leviathan imagery is similar to other Babylonian Baal war god imagery.

I don't doubt that the writer was inspired by some actual living animal.... but with not much travel and no photographs in those days... heck in the middle ages they assumed whales had ears, and the unicorn was invented from the description probably of a rhino.
What I am admiring here is your persistence and imo its good persistence. With everything it has to pass my stringent yeah nah process which is why I put all the info I have against it and then I will treat it as if it was true. In saying that I believe there was an ancient school of thought that even if someone added texts to a certain collection of books classed as scripture the wise people could also use them to tell of the original story. So at this moment I will hear for words,concepts,idioms etc before I comment. So far you're opening my eyes to possible and agreeable outcomes. Be blessed my bro/sis and please continue thanks.

[Clear Blue Sky]

What I am admiring here is your persistence and imo its good persistence. With everything it has to pass my stringent yeah nah process which is why I put all the info I have against it and then I will treat it as if it was true. In saying that I believe there was an ancient school of thought that even if someone added texts to a certain collection of books classed as scripture the wise people could also use them to tell of the original story. So at this moment I will hear for words,concepts,idioms etc before I comment. So far you're opening my eyes to possible and agreeable outcomes. Be blessed my bro/sis and please continue thanks.


You're most welcome. If you're interested, here is the entire 'diary' of my contemplative experience reading through the book of Job. Sometimes with an occasional real-life synchronistic interface. ;-)

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=96114

[AHIYAH]

I got to the first part and I've come back with some things to think about. Now the reason why I went into Moses possibly being the writer of this book is when such words like Sacrifice comes into use. Since this book is widely accepted as being written about the time of the Torah you'd have to wonder what feast these people are celebrating and what the sacrifices were for according to the Torah. Another thing is the Cohen that performs these sacrifices there's no mention of them being present. Consider this when stating this was Job's custom.
.
Day 1) Chapter 1. We see Job as a wealthy and great man, with his sons and daughters often feasting together. "When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

[Clear Blue Sky]

I got to the first part and I've come back with some things to think about. Now the reason why I went into Moses possibly being the writer of this book is when such words like Sacrifice comes into use. Since this book is widely accepted as being written about the time of the Torah you'd have to wonder what feast these people are celebrating and what the sacrifices were for according to the Torah. Another thing is the Cohen that performs these sacrifices there's no mention of them being present. Consider this when stating this was Job's custom.
.
Day 1) Chapter 1. We see Job as a wealthy and great man, with his sons and daughters often feasting together. "When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

my personal belief is that it was written around the time of the exile into Babylon. Young Jews were being taken and educated by the Babylonians into reading Babylonian literature with Babylonian ways/religion. The Jews wanted to maintain identity while benefitting from education. So they took the Babylonian stories and adapted them.

Gilgamesh talks of a flood..... they wrote the story of Noah.

They adapted the story of Job to make it YHWH-palatable (though not too embellished) and dampen down referneces to Babylonian dieties.

They adapted the Babylonian creation stories into genesis, with some contrasts thrown in for their own culture (the Babylonians were dualists who believed in evil god/good god..... Genesis said God made all things and he did not want Adam and Eve to swallow that "Good vs Evil" dualistic concept symbolized by the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I read another book once that laid out evidence that a lot of the patriarch stories were adaptations of older Egyptian stories. May be some truth to that.

The spirit of Job reminds me of the spirit of Abraham. Sacrifice was present but it was an individual thing, not structured priesthood, (Job is sort of a patriarchal figure). and there is the direct discourse/willingness to haggle/argue with God.

[AHIYAH]

my personal belief is that it was written around the time of the exile into Babylon. Young Jews were being taken and educated by the Babylonians into reading Babylonian literature with Babylonian ways/religion. The Jews wanted to maintain identity while benefitting from education. So they took the Babylonian stories and adapted them.

Gilgamesh talks of a flood..... they wrote the story of Noah.

They adapted the story of Job to make it YHWH-palatable (though not too embellished) and dampen down referneces to Babylonian dieties.

They adapted the Babylonian creation stories into genesis, with some contrasts thrown in for their own culture (the Babylonians were dualists who believed in evil god/good god..... Genesis said God made all things and he did not want Adam and Eve to swallow that "Good vs Evil" dualistic concept symbolized by the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I read another book once that laid out evidence that a lot of the patriarch stories were adaptations of older Egyptian stories. May be some truth to that.

The spirit of Job reminds me of the spirit of Abraham. Sacrifice was present but it was an individual thing, not structured priesthood, (Job is sort of a patriarchal figure). and there is the direct discourse/willingness to haggle/argue with God.
Interesting beliefs you have there. I'll make this my last post because there's just going to be disagreements. I'm sure you're on a mission so I'll leave you to it. All good.

[Clear Blue Sky]

That's okay, just sharing a thought. I saw your last post in the Christian forum, so, here, thank you for your self-control.

One thought I had as on Solomon -- in the proverbs wisdom literature, it sets out to address teaching right living. I am not recalling though if in Proverbs there is ever any encouragement or exortation to do right by the priests, observe the rituals, administer the sacrifices and tithes, etc. Because it is in the sacred texts as a book nestled among such books as Psalms (which is very rich with religious priestly references) we forgive it not mentioning religion, but as it was likely written as a stand-alone, why is it not mentioned? Likewise in chronicles and kings there is no mention of Solomon founding torah schools, David constructing synagogues, or the like (apart from the temple which is no small matter). I understand in the rabbinical literature (Talmud?) there is mention of such.

[lemex]

my personal belief is that it was written around the time of the exile into Babylon. So they took the Babylonian stories and adapted them.




If you believe academics who've written about the story have said the meaning was about the suffering of the people of Israel, so you're correct according to some research done. This has alway been said. The traditional story was not about a man named Job, The character (Job) represented the nation of Israel and the suffering (exile), the man represented the people in exile and so on. Of course this would have needed to be explained, so the question is, was it. Story's were used to pass ideas and message along specific to events but I'm not sure if the story was intended to be cryptic and had been explained to understand it, but the story has been presented as original in what it meant. Nations was more important then people to at that time, where individualism is different today. Concepts were so different, but this is my interpretation from study of those times.

The morale of the story asked why Israel (Job) and it's people must suffer since they were faithful to God. But, the story also gave hope and it was said remain faithful in their struggle. The prevailing view of reward in that historic time are part of the story. Rewards were more down to earth and practical. Reward at that time in what I have read reward was not about heavenly reward, but an earthly one. Also as the story implies a greater one.

There are some books out there to research. Has anyone heard this as to it's meaning. This is also my opportunity to ask if this is correct or something else about the original.

[Clear Blue Sky]

Thanks Lemex. There is attested ugraritic text and stories similar to Job, so I see this as a Jewish adaptation of the story of Job. It would be during the time of their trying to retain their national identity and personal religious integrity in the face of Babylonian attempts at integration. as such the scribes would rework the original stories and make it their own. but curiously the book of Job does not have a lot of bling-type jewish identity stuff. He is not stubborn about any rituals, the sacrifice is general and non priestly. the foreign friends never ever suggest that he turn away to other gods, or challenge *his* god, they all seem to acknowledge they are talking about the same god. I would think these elements would have been mentioned if the story was meant to be strictly nationalistic. So my best personal hunch is that it 1) had to pass the scrutiny of the ruling Babylonians 2) was some sort of compensation for standard literature in Babylonian education 3) was reworked so as to fit with and not offend the jewish religion. Something like a home school alternate reading curricula.