PDA

View Full Version : Ego


I AM
18-12-2015, 06:04 PM
What is your definition of Ego?

Miss Hepburn
18-12-2015, 06:13 PM
Hmm...that which is necessary for life here...but who's duty
it is to make me think there is a separation from the Only One,
the One Soul, God, the Creator, Superior Being...
a very tricky thing, indeed, the Ego...since it is not all bad...
but, is part of the Human Mind, none-the-less.

Belle
18-12-2015, 06:25 PM
Ego - is - I am. It is ia part of me.

jonesboy
18-12-2015, 06:26 PM
I think it is best to think in terms of local mind and universal mind.

Ego would be an aspect of local mind.

Rokon
18-12-2015, 06:41 PM
What is your definition of Ego?

Ego is the part of you that recognizes you as you, and without it, you cannot tell the difference between yourself and anything else. Ego is as Divine as anything else because it is consciousness being expressed.

wolfgaze
18-12-2015, 06:49 PM
The limited sense of self rooted in the influence of the physical mind (brain)...

youngers1810
18-12-2015, 06:52 PM
Ego is a self defense mechanism of the physical body

Rah nam
18-12-2015, 08:10 PM
In the body/mind/spirit system the ego is the body/mind system

Heart
19-12-2015, 12:20 AM
What is your definition of Ego?

here we-ego

ego is a state of perpetual movement of mind, when you see movement in your mind, you are seeing ego in action, it is mostly expressed unconsciously in your thoughts, emotions, actions and thrives on the illusion that it has power to rule you by creating an identity it calls "self"

in reality it is a reflection of something that is beyond form and impossible to describe in words, so all you get to see of ego is a shadow of the light that shines in your hearts

seek not the shadow but the light from which the ego tricks and plays

Internal Queries
19-12-2015, 03:55 AM
ego, noun, plural egos.

1.
the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought.

2.
Psychoanalysis. the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment.

3.
egotism; conceit; self-importance:
Her ego becomes more unbearable each day.

4.
self-esteem or self-image; feelings:
Your criticism wounded his ego.

5.
(often initial capital letter) Philosophy.

a. the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.
b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.

6.
Ethnology. a person who serves as the central reference point in the study of organizational and kinship relationships

GreenGazer
19-12-2015, 06:25 AM
The source of limitation.

Shivani Devi
19-12-2015, 06:30 AM
The source of attachment.

GreenGazer
19-12-2015, 06:39 AM
here we-ego

You proud of that one? :tongue2:

Heart
19-12-2015, 06:50 AM
You proud of that one? :tongue2:

I am

it took me many years to realize when I stop the mind from moving the ego would still be moving in all directions

as it plays it tricks on me i would often say to myself.... here we-ego again

lol

Belle
19-12-2015, 09:18 AM
I think that's funny - made me chuckle. Thanks!

GreenGazer
19-12-2015, 09:54 AM
I think that's funny - made me chuckle. Thanks!

Don't get me wrong. It's kinda funny. My brother is the worlds largest lover of puns and the like. He thought it was hilarious. He loves them so much it has ruined them for me. I am exhausted by puns nearly every day of my life....:rolleyes:

naturesflow
19-12-2015, 10:10 AM
What is your definition of Ego?

The external world in us.

Established General Order.

Belle
19-12-2015, 11:36 AM
Don't get me wrong. It's kinda funny. My brother is the worlds largest lover of puns and the like. He thought it was hilarious. He loves them so much it has ruined them for me. I am exhausted by puns nearly every day of my life....:rolleyes:

Yes they can get tedious. It's often interesting why people feel the need to constantly pull off a pun.

engellstein
19-12-2015, 11:42 AM
I see it as the physical mind, opposed to the spiritual mind. It's the biological, physical, chemical part of us. It's the cause-and-effect part of us, the predictable part. Psychology studies it.

The spiritual mind is above it and allows for creation, imagination, collaboration, free will, self-reflection, abundance-thinking.

The ego has its place and is a valuable tool, but when people don't think with awareness they act on autopilot and can let ego take control. When that happens they usually act in ways that are destructive, competitive, imprisoning, blind, scarcity-thinking.

Meditation is meant to help a person connect with their spiritual mind more and develop more self-awareness, mindfulness. A mindful person 'lives from spirit and not from flesh', as one book puts it, and so uses the ego as a tool, not letting the ego use him.

Belle
19-12-2015, 12:11 PM
Yes they can get tedious. It's often interesting why people feel the need to constantly pull off a pun.

On reflection, it's a good example of an ego out of control. Heart has demonstrated how a pun - a one off - is a healthy understanding and integration of recognition of the ego and the self is in perfect relationship wtih that aspect of ego. Where they are used the whole time, the ego is out of control and ruling the self.

Ego and self are designed to co-exist in harmony and both are required to work together in a way that promotes balance, perhaps a little humour, awareness, observation, compassion. And we need both.

In my very humble (said ironically as I am far from humble) opinion.

Shinsoo
19-12-2015, 12:47 PM
Ego is basically the identity you give yourself in this lifetime--it executes all the day to day processing.

It's vital in any spiritual work--can't do anything without it. It only becomes a problem when it lets itself be over influenced by its environment, people, situations, etc.

Internal Queries
19-12-2015, 01:24 PM
the word "ego" has become almost as ambiguous as the word "God". it means whatever the user wants it mean so discussion concerning "ego" is near to pointless.

words are vehicles for the conveyance of meaning and there are actual agreed upon definitions for the word "ego". it would be nice if folks would indicate which definition they're using within the context of any given discussion. making up one's own definitions for commonly used words causes confusion.

imo, it's rather egotistical (definition #3) to presume to rewrite the dictionary to suit one's ego (definition #1).:wink:

GreenGazer
19-12-2015, 03:34 PM
imo, it's rather egotistical (definition #3) to presume to rewrite the dictionary to suit one's ego (definition #1).:wink:

LOL, the irony was not lost on me either, looking at everyone's personal definitions (including my own) but perhaps that is what the thread starter wanted - the broad range of responses that would be given. I think that helps make an interesting and dynamic thread.

Gem
19-12-2015, 03:57 PM
I just stick with the Freudian format - a social adaption of the personality.

Miss Hepburn
19-12-2015, 03:58 PM
Every single answer is so right on! :thumbsup:

Heart
19-12-2015, 04:50 PM
this is what happens to an ego after it has been subdued, you conquer your fears of self....


You hear your fear, its drawing near
You turn to run and hide

many times has this been done
throughout your entire life.

Now the mind is tired and weary
with being on the run

the ego is deflated
finding running not much fun

you stop and turn to see your fear
its running very fast.

You realize its not stopping
as its heading for a crash

You stand there boldly waiting
for it to end your life

You feel as though your dieing
as it cuts through like a knife

You see it passing through you
and your fear it does go

You sit there in stunned wonder
What did you just go through?

Mr Interesting
19-12-2015, 08:57 PM
Ego is a three letter word we use to define something and whether or not it is actually something is completely up to each of us to agree or disagree on.

Internal Queries
19-12-2015, 09:59 PM
Ego is a three letter word we use to define something and whether or not it is actually something is completely up to each of us to agree or disagree on.


which can be said for any word, regardless of how many letters it has and if we all made up our own definitions words would become useless, context impossible and the whole point of language destroyed.

GreenGazer
19-12-2015, 10:15 PM
nice poem heart :)

Mr Interesting
19-12-2015, 10:46 PM
which can be said for any word, regardless of how many letters it has and if we all made up our own definitions words would become useless, context impossible and the whole point of language destroyed.

And what then is the point of language because you seem to define it as something that we all suppose there is a reasonable reason for.

This taking for granted stuff may actually be why we need to keep talking about what ego is.

GreenGazer
19-12-2015, 10:54 PM
On reflection, it's a good example of an ego out of control. Heart has demonstrated how a pun - a one off - is a healthy understanding and integration of recognition of the ego and the self is in perfect relationship wtih that aspect of ego. Where they are used the whole time, the ego is out of control and ruling the self.

That is an interesting juxtaposition I would have never put together.



In my very humble (said ironically as I am far from humble) opinion.
Sounds like that ego might be getting to big for its breeches :tongue:

naturesflow
20-12-2015, 12:02 AM
Acceptance of all meaning regardless of what the ego determines is right or wrong, how things should be or need to be,might have some bearing on the

Super ego..

What is that? Lets try again ..hehehe

naturesflow
20-12-2015, 12:07 AM
this is what happens to an ego after it has been subdued, you conquer your fears of self....


You hear your fear, its drawing near
You turn to run and hide

many times has this been done
throughout your entire life.

Now the mind is tired and weary
with being on the run

the ego is deflated
finding running not much fun

you stop and turn to see your fear
its running very fast.

You realize its not stopping
as its heading for a crash

You stand there boldly waiting
for it to end your life

You feel as though your dieing
as it cuts through like a knife

You see it passing through you
and your fear it does go

You sit there in stunned wonder
What did you just go through?

This is one aspect of ego awareness and opening to the fear suppressed and locked in.

But ultimately you can also deepen your walk and talk in this awareness as you move with all life.

Fight or flight is a constant deepening experience one with all life interactions.

EgoIsSatan
20-12-2015, 02:57 AM
The dependent or scared sense of separate self combined with conscious waking thoughts

The "I" thought

naturesflow
20-12-2015, 02:59 AM
The dependent or scared sense of separate self combined with conscious waking thoughts

The "I" thought


But wait!

Your egoissatan?

So are you explaining yourself?

EgoIsSatan
20-12-2015, 05:50 AM
But wait!

Your egoissatan?

So are you explaining yourself?

Well, I have to admit I operate from ego myself, so yes, I suppose I am
explaining myself

Miss Hepburn
20-12-2015, 02:05 PM
Ego itself, I would not say, is satan. But, I'm no expert.
I would say the lower ego self...the lower part of the egoic mind I consider to be
what Christians personify as the devil, the enemy, satan.
We have a higher ego self.

I was influenced a lot by Wayne Dyer's talks on this.

My lower self or ego self wants me to have 3 pieces of chocolate cake...this does not benefit me.
My higher self, ego...gives to charity;
there is a difference.


The lower ego self is filled with anger, greed, indignation and pride...all fear based.
The natural, 'ok' ego self says to mom, "Did you see me hit that ball?!!!!!!" :icon_colors: :bunny:

Internal Queries
20-12-2015, 03:19 PM
And what then is the point of language because you seem to define it as something that we all suppose there is a reasonable reason for.

This taking for granted stuff may actually be why we need to keep talking about what ego is.

words have no intrinsic value. no reason for reason. no meaning in meaning. talking about ego (or anything else) is pointless since the meaning of the words we use to talk have no agreed upon definition that can be taken for granted. alrighty then.

my ego submits to the grandeur of your ego. i would never, in all my life, imagine my self so huge and powerful as to render language meaningless. congratulations! very impressive.

no reason for me to have posted this (or anything else). just a collection of symbols representing sounds which, if strung together, have no value whatsoever.

Internal Queries
20-12-2015, 03:49 PM
heos ortec rolo sicpwween klil quap. lytbre veoa cozrenep. jbo waplip blapifo neffrohipnix alcropze. vilotuwtwax! ha!

Mr Interesting
20-12-2015, 06:33 PM
I'm sorry Internal Queries as my intention, with my first post, wasn't to bring us to this point but in getting to this point I suppose I should dig a little deeper and try to explain what that original intention was.

It is basically that yes from a ego involved perspective it does pay, within bounds, to define the ego but that as we go further along in living a life with less personal influence defining the way we are this notion of ego can become a hindrance as the ego itself, whatever that is, becomes much more ephemeral and possibly of benefit as a feedback mechanism.

The shifted perspective then also shifts the relationship of ego and what seems to be more of a coherence to a whole. So as natures flow suggests then there is a gradual shift between ego and super ego and it doesn't seem like there is often a suddeness where one becomes another but a gradually graduated set of graduations. And I say gradually graduated graduations because it seems that this original concept of ego needs those sets of measurements but then the super ego doesn't as there is more wholeness involved but the betweeness, which isn't really there, is where the shifts occur.

For me then it's much less about what an ego might be and more about allowing a perspective which holds lightly a perception of what the ego might be and that the allowing of the perspective, feeling it all simply as a perspective within which those defined or undefined concepts might move.

Gem
21-12-2015, 03:00 AM
Ego is a three letter word we use to define something and whether or not it is actually something is completely up to each of us to agree or disagree on.
It is a name for something which is intrinsically bound by the human organisms existing as a society. We look at society, and what it is, a consumption and acquisition based ideology, and how a human being grows up and adapts to that social structure. What is ones place in the social narrative about what a son is what a mother is of what a family is, what a man is or a woman is, and on the whole, how a human being must behave to survive the social world and culture. Where to take a dump, how to hold a fork - how much eye contact is honest and sincere and when does it get creepy. That's ego's job. So we go back and we look at the development of the ego. It didn't just appear, it wasn't inborn to us. We learned it, and somewhere along the line, became it. Then we have the spiritual inquiry into self, which necessarily dismantles falsehood, which is any belief about oneself. We then call ego in the spiritual community what you believe about yourself. I suggest it is sufficient to learn the social etiquette and behave appropriately without any degree of vanity or self depreciation - but every time one needs to pee and constricts the bladder until later, I think the self referential thought, I, would be necessary.

Rokon
21-12-2015, 04:00 AM
We then call ego in the spiritual community what you believe about yourself..
it sounds like you are presuming your narrative about ego is the prescribed narrative of "the spiritual community". It is not. The "ego is the boogyman" story is old religion leftovers, in my opinion. likely the same roots as humankind are sinners. These stories need to be moved into the light, challenged and cleared up, again, my opinion.

Shivani Devi
21-12-2015, 04:08 AM
Something inside me 'ego' wants to post this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6B9YXhZPrM

Oh god...that's like a blast from the past.

Gem
21-12-2015, 04:36 AM
it sounds like you are presuming your narrative about ego is the prescribed narrative of "the spiritual community". It is not. The "ego is the boogyman" story is old religion leftovers, in my opinion. likely the same roots as humankind are sinners. These stories need to be moved into the light, challenged and cleared up, again, my opinion.
Well it's all a story, no doubt about that, but it's entirely consistent in the sense that ego pertains to the self. I claim that is a result of adapting to survive in the social world. The stage theorists Freud, Erickson, Lacan, Piaget etc went into structuring it and it's been a argued and developed and refined for over a century now. There are assumptions and a bias to Euro-centric cultural masculine views, but the people who looked into it, looked into it very closely. The spiritual thing is basically, take everything bad and put it in the ego basket, then use the word 'ego' as spiritually sanctioned insult.

The early theorists were going by the seat of their pants, so they wrote their work with only their own lives to go by - and underwent a deep self examination, and by understanding their own minds, also understood the operation if mind in the general sense. For those to come, they were able to read what went before and find flaws and contradictions and look at it from a new angle - Kohlberg, for example, only studied moral development. Piaget only studied cognitive development and motor skills. Others did their little areas of specialty, because what goes into making up a whole person is bio-genetic, the multitude of psychological aspects, their social and environmental contexts, and their spiritual dimensions. What we think of as 'me' is necessarily contextualised with respect to the enviro-social world. Apart from the Bio-genetic, which arguably includes certain traits, talents, and a sense of goodness, the rest of 'me' is formed by way of social conditioning, and on the whole, I am the sum product of the past.

Like it or not, all these specialist theories are incorporated into the profession of psychology, child care, health and education, and have a tremendous influence in society, and therefore, on our lives.

The most interesting aspect to it is, I think, is the self image - and there is a really good series of talks on this between Krishnamurti, Bohm and Shainberg. For the ones who are really interested in the subject, it's long a 7 part series, but worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuaRPN4yPwY

Internal Queries
21-12-2015, 12:45 PM
I'm sorry Internal Queries as my intention, with my first post, wasn't to bring us to this point but in getting to this point I suppose I should dig a little deeper and try to explain what that original intention was.

okay. cool. my only intention was to express confusion and a bit frustration at the use of the word "ego" by spiritually oriented folks.

GreenGazer
21-12-2015, 01:00 PM
okay. cool. my only intention was to express confusion and a bit frustration at the use of the word "ego" by spiritually oriented folks.
Yes. I have expressed frustration in previous threads about the broad terms in "spirituality" like "ego" and "meditation". But like I noted before perhaps the broad interpretations of the term "ego" was the original thread poster's reason for making this thread.

It seems to me we need to break up these broad terms into different categories like the Greeks did with the term "love". They broke love down into four terms : Agápe love (unconditional God love), Storage love (empathy bond), Éros love (erotic bond), and Philia love (friend bond). It would be really cool if the philosophical/spiritual community could come together to categorize these things so we can expand our language as our "spirituality" expands.

Rokon
21-12-2015, 04:15 PM
Well it's all a story, no doubt about that, but it's entirely consistent in the sense that ego pertains to the self. I claim that is a result of adapting to survive in the social world. The stage theorists Freud, Erickson, Lacan, Piaget etc went into structuring it and it's been a argued and developed and refined for over a century now. There are assumptions and a bias to Euro-centric cultural masculine views, but the people who looked into it, looked into it very closely. The spiritual thing is basically, take everything bad and put it in the ego basket, then use the word 'ego' as spiritually sanctioned insult.
...
The early theorists were going by the seat of their pants, so they wrote their work with only their own lives to go by - and underwent a deep self examination, and by understanding their own minds, also understood the operation if mind in the general sense. For those to come, they were able to read what went before and find flaws and contradictions and look at it from a new angle - Kohlberg, for example, only studied moral development. Piaget only studied cognitive development and motor skills. Others did their little areas of specialty, because what goes into making up a whole person is bio-genetic, the multitude of psychological aspects, their social and environmental contexts, and their spiritual dimensions. What we think of as 'me' is necessarily contextualised with respect to the enviro-social world. Apart from the Bio-genetic, which arguably includes certain traits, talents, and a sense of goodness, the rest of 'me' is formed by way of social conditioning, and on the whole, I am the sum product of the past.

The materialist influences are evident here, I see that. Perhaps like Bohm, Sheldrake, some well trained scholars are willing to expand briefly, but they are still boxed in and offer little in regards to spirituality. I'm glad I am not tied to the post, much like any mental health professional or quantum physicist. I have issues with the way science looks at the mind. I find it highly flawed and irrational. I believe sincerely that the psychologists and shrinks of the world are treating spiritual consciousness while they believe they are treating the human mind. Definitions, words!

But in regards to the ego, you said something concise; "The spiritual thing is basically, take everything bad and put it in the ego basket, then use the word 'ego' as spiritually sanctioned insult."

This seems like old religion. It brings up so much chaos in my mind when I try to make this work. How can a higher self, soul, or god or whatever you think is the force that impelled human manifestation, how can the modern new age spiritual pursuer accept that this force placed you here like dropping a lobster into a pan of boiling water, for the purpose of a lesson so you can figure out how to climb back out?

Secondly, in regards to an ego creating a false identity that is not really you (old religion) how does ego do this? Does ego manipulate or con the higher soul into giving up some of its own consciousness so ego can use it to create a false identity? Even if this was possible, to what end would an ego desire to do this? For this ever-popular story of the boogyman ego to work it NEEDS spirit consciousness. By either borrowing it or perhaps there is a second channel of consciousness going on. I see no mechanism for this at all.

Thirdly, for the "ego is bad and is the false you, and needs to be replaced" scenario to work it needs a workable definition of its suggested replacement--the "real you". Thusfar the "real you" is so ambiguously defined one needs huge leaps of imagination to make it work.

i propose that the ego, in a spiritual context, is YOU. A real-time representation of the consciousness that is residing in you now. Making ego a false you is almost like a campfire story. And is likely rooted in bad spiritual blood, starting with angelic hatred of human experience, an imprinted desire to castigate human experience.

lemex
21-12-2015, 04:56 PM
But in regards to the ego, you said something concise; "The spiritual thing is basically, take everything bad and put it in the ego basket, then use the word 'ego' as spiritually sanctioned insult."

Secondly, in regards to an ego creating a false identity that is not really you (old religion) how does ego do this? Does ego manipulate or con the higher soul into giving up some of its own consciousness so ego can use it to create a false identity? Even if this was possible, to what end would an ego desire to do this? For this ever-popular story of the boogyman ego to work it NEEDS spirit consciousness. By either borrowing it or perhaps there is a second channel of consciousness going on. I see no mechanism for this at all.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

i propose that the ego, in a spiritual context, is YOU. A real-time representation of the consciousness that is residing in you now.

Making ego a false you is almost like a campfire story. And is likely rooted in bad spiritual blood, starting with angelic hatred of human experience, an imprinted desire to castigate human experience.

I see both ideas correct and are not at all opposite. Each one compliment one another as a part of a whole idea. Why, because I look out in the world to see how people think (acts). My own experience tells me if I had be brought up differently even here, I might (would) be different thought this can't be proven. It doesn't even have to be somewhere else, it need only be different. Do you feel this is true.

I see the inside influenced by the outside. I think we're talking more about masks of the ego, thought.

Jyotir
22-12-2015, 04:12 AM
‘Ego’in the spiritual sense is a term of descriptive convention referring to an amalgam of components in the individuated human being - mind, ‘life’ (vital being), body - which through their limited separative objective consciousness, are ‘functionally’ ignorant of their essential Identity as part-and-parcel of One Being, True Self and Reality - divine, self-existent, infinite and eternal, all-conscient.


~ J

Jyotir
22-12-2015, 04:14 AM
The human being identifying with and through this false separative cognition of ego experiences a (false) illusory reality as divided, mortal, finite, limited, etc.

It’s not that the ego ‘tricks’ the soul as has been suggested.

The soul is fully gnostic, but patiently acquiesces to the ego’s blindness while supporting the evolution out of the ignorance.


~J


continued...

Jyotir
22-12-2015, 04:15 AM
continued...


It is ego - the separative consciousness - which is the basis of fear, desire, insecurity, jealousy, pain, suffering, aggression, violence - all based in ego’s false, illusory, and ignorant cognition.

Again, the soul doesn’t experience mortality, pain and suffering, etc. - except through the ego... but it is always transcendent of it.

‘We’ (in our ignorant status) just don’t normally identify fully and completely with the soul.



~ J

Jyotir
22-12-2015, 04:17 AM
It is important to avoid the misguided view that “ego is good” - in and of itself - which is a post-awakening residual of long habit of being unknowingly in thrall of ego!

That is taking the ignorant element(s) of differentiated being and mistakenly elevating it - while ignoring the less familiar but now emerging gnostic elements of being, i.e., the soul.

Yes, individuation/differentiation in the physical affords an unprecedented opportunity for the possibility of God-realisation - and ‘ego’ - the separative objective consciousness - is a necessary starting point for that evolution.

But ego is not the whole of individuation.

Ego is not YOU in your totality, but really a partial shadow construct of ignorance.

This is an important distinction, and one that is increasingly important in spiritual practice.


~ J

Jyotir
22-12-2015, 04:19 AM
Within the spiritual context, which is appropriate for the purposes of these discussions, many (especially esoteric) traditions support that the false perception of reality by ego is intrinsic to, and originates in the Cosmic Physical Nature itself, and does not originate with Freud, 19th or 20th Century intellectual or psychological theories, or reactive, and therefore infinitely regressive social behaviour as observed retrospectively by other similarly based constructs of ignorant cognition!

Rather, it is just the opposite:
That human behaviour and social structures are determined by ego as defined: Ignorance of true self - due to ignorant cognition, e.g., ego is what ego does.

All subsequent actions are adaptive consequent on this fundamental Cosmic Ignorance in which we live, evolve within, and are subject to - unless and until it is transformed or transcended by identification with, or surrender to higher unitive gnostic consciousness.

That’s the ‘game’, like it or not, call it what you want.



~ J

Jyotir
22-12-2015, 04:21 AM
Recommend the Upanishads as a better source in this context than Lacan, et al., who are all hopelessly insufficient in authority (in this context), and eventually dependent on, and derivative of earlier and vastly more authoritative direct explorations of human consciousness undertaken hundreds and even thousands of years ago through various forms of Yoga. It seems now common and convenient for the purposes of a rational skeptical (uninformed) ‘iconoclastic’ posture to bang-on in provocative discussion about the modern hyper-intellectual theories, re: ego - “Oh my! What a hopeless and helpless morass!” - while perhaps scoffing at, and at the same time oblivious to (deliberate avoidance or just lazy?), the ancient achievements, the results and record of which are all easily available and clearly presented.


~ J

Jyotir
22-12-2015, 04:22 AM
In realisation of true self, ‘ego’ / false cognition is ‘destroyed’, i.e., the illusion of separativity is transcended - even though individuation or differentiation persists in the physical.

Note that 'differentiation' is not the same as ‘separation’ for practical purposes within this context.

The truly gnostic being realises True Self, the Transcendent One-Self, which everything IS that appears as 'separate' in the illusion of ego.

All of the traditional spiritual practices, whether discrimination, devotion, service, or meditation - all of them work by displacing ego in some way.



~ J

Gem
22-12-2015, 11:37 AM
The materialist influences are evident here, I see that. Perhaps like Bohm, Sheldrake, some well trained scholars are willing to expand briefly, but they are still boxed in and offer little in regards to spirituality. I'm glad I am not tied to the post, much like any mental health professional or quantum physicist. I have issues with the way science looks at the mind. I find it highly flawed and irrational. I believe sincerely that the psychologists and shrinks of the world are treating spiritual consciousness while they believe they are treating the human mind. Definitions, words!
Well, no-one is more critical of psychiatry than I am. If you didn't watch the thingy, you aren't in a position to critically analyse the content. Those talks went into great depth. They took it step by step and covered a lot of detail. I posted it because it's high quality and in depth, and the subject is complex and can't be covered in quick and easy pith.

But in regards to the ego, you said something concise; "The spiritual thing is basically, take everything bad and put it in the ego basket, then use the word 'ego' as spiritually sanctioned insult."

This seems like old religion. It brings up so much chaos in my mind when I try to make this work. How can a higher self, soul, or god or whatever you think is the force that impelled human manifestation, how can the modern new age spiritual pursuer accept that this force placed you here like dropping a lobster into a pan of boiling water, for the purpose of a lesson so you can figure out how to climb back out?
I only believe in purity of the mind and body in terms of bringing love into the world. I claim that 'spiritual consciousness' is felt as love, and that is ground base of existence. The human issue isn't one of lack in this regard, and anyone who's truly willing can touch upon it directly today. I don't believe in Gods and forces or anything like that. For me, there is only the knowing that I am and the only purpose is to be conscious of the one's self, self aware. All that we experience is self reflection and learning is deepening self awareness. This is basically seeing through the false, dropping the dead weight, and being free to be oneself.

Secondly, in regards to an ego creating a false identity that is not really you (old religion) how does ego do this? Does ego manipulate or con the higher soul into giving up some of its own consciousness so ego can use it to create a false identity? Even if this was possible, to what end would an ego desire to do this? For this ever-popular story of the boogyman ego to work it NEEDS spirit consciousness. By either borrowing it or perhaps there is a second channel of consciousness going on. I see no mechanism for this at all.
Ego is basically a false identity, but the only identity there is. We could say it's a bunch of ideas one has about themselves, but it's also a image replica of one's body which fits exactly like a glove. It's very tricky and convincing since it is believed to be 'you'. It's a psychically generated self which is believed in.

Thirdly, for the "ego is bad and is the false you, and needs to be replaced" scenario to work it needs a workable definition of its suggested replacement--the "real you". Thusfar the "real you" is so ambiguously defined one needs huge leaps of imagination to make it work.
The 'real you' (oxymoron) isn't defined at all in any way whatsoever. 'Ego' isn't even a thing, a noun; it's a verb, an activity. If a person stops will to act and propensity to react, ego, the activity, can't go on. It's like you believe in Santa, then you don't, because actually, there is no Santa. Santa is a story one believed in, a story about an image.

i propose that the ego, in a spiritual context, is YOU. A real-time representation of the consciousness that is residing in you now. Making ego a false you is almost like a campfire story. And is likely rooted in bad spiritual blood, starting with angelic hatred of human experience, an imprinted desire to castigate human experience.
That's right in the sense that there is no you other than the ego. Indeed, a real time representation. It's good to be that, because when you are that, there is no 'other' who can be in conflict with that. Your pointing out something entirely relevant there. The other side of the story. On the one hand, you know the ego is image, and on the other hand, you know that there isn't a you apart from it. It is you and you certainly don't want to go to war with yourself. But, wait a sec, a moment ago I just said it isn't you. Hahaha. That precisely why this is a very intricate and complicated topic.

Miss Hepburn
22-12-2015, 01:09 PM
:thumbsup: Jyotir

:smile:

Internal Queries
22-12-2015, 01:53 PM
All of the traditional spiritual practices, whether discrimination, devotion, service, or meditation - all of them work by displacing ego in some way.



displace ego (self) for true ego (true self).

mmhmm

Jyotir
22-12-2015, 02:34 PM
mmhmm

I’m reading this palindrome both forwards and backwards.

The forward way, it’s a cleverly voiced affirmation (of valuable principle).

The backwards way, it’s a cynically sarcastic self-congratulation (of denial).

Internal Queries
22-12-2015, 02:41 PM
I’m reading this palindrome both forwards and backwards.

The forward way, it’s a cleverly voiced affirmation (of valuable principle).

The backwards way, it’s a cynically sarcastic self-congratulation (of denial).





deny self to achieve self. mmhmm

Jyotir
22-12-2015, 02:56 PM
.
.
. . .
.
. .
.
.

Internal Queries
22-12-2015, 03:00 PM
as long as you believe it, it'll work. ego in action.

Rokon
22-12-2015, 03:28 PM
In realisation of true self, ‘ego’ / false cognition is ‘destroyed’, i.e., the illusion of separativity is transcended - even though individuation or differentiation persists in the physical.

Note that 'differentiation' is not the same as ‘separation’ for practical purposes within this context.

The truly gnostic being realises True Self, the Transcendent One-Self, which everything IS that appears as 'separate' in the illusion of ego.

All of the traditional spiritual practices, whether discrimination, devotion, service, or meditation - all of them work by displacing ego in some way.



~ J



Joytr, I'm familiar with the story, I just don't buy it. There are too many flaws in the story regardless of how well it is presented. Obviously you are well read and articulate in relating this story. But I have worked through this and I am not young and naive. I have spent quite a bit of time with meditation and contemplation and have had wonderful, enlightening experiences. But the story you are relating has been so embellished by the old religious traditions that it borders on the absurd. They need more challenging, not blind acceptance. for example, the ego is a false identity? Who says? The ego can evolve. throwing out the baby with the bathwater is no solution. And to blame ego for all things bad is overly simplistic. Please lets challenge this notion. What does ego "do" that's bad or wrong? By the story's definition castigating ego as false, wrong and our nemesis, these are judgments! Doesnt' the story imply that judgments like this come from ego itself? The story is much too dogmatic and unrealistic for me. it needs refinement.
It would help the story's credibility if someone could actualize what is being proposed. But we meditate, we have periodic spiritual highs, then tell the world that ego is false, and you have seen the "real you". And even though we have these spiritual highs, enlightening experiences, we still dont have our natural powers. We still have insufficient memories. We never really did feel the true oneness that we say we did. We just nod to each other and pretend that we have ascended, or became enlightened. Meanwhile we go back to work, live out dualistic existence until we die, forlorn, confused and cycle over again.

Rokon
22-12-2015, 03:30 PM
Gem. Very level-headed reply. I appreciated it. :wink:
On that video you recommended, the seven part one. I do intend to look at it when I have more time. I'm sure I saw it years ago and vaguely remember being frustrated with krishnamurti.

Horse
22-12-2015, 03:39 PM
The urge to attach to an illusion of a self separate from others. The mechanism by which consciousness is "apparently" ensnared in duality. What stands in the way of us and God.

Internal Queries
22-12-2015, 04:07 PM
The urge to attach to an illusion of a self separate from others. The mechanism by which consciousness is "apparently" ensnared in duality. What stands in the way of us and God.


maybe our concepts of God?


it is not an illusion that i stand as a separate entity from you and other individuals. experiencing and expressing in this reality makes it so.

however, metaphorically speaking, each individual piece of light lit colored glass in a kaleidoscope is part of a whole mirror reflected and shifting pattern.

Rokon
22-12-2015, 04:16 PM
I see both ideas correct and are not at all opposite. Each one compliment one another as a part of a whole idea. Why, because I look out in the world to see how people think (acts). My own experience tells me if I had be brought up differently even here, I might (would) be different thought this can't be proven. It doesn't even have to be somewhere else, it need only be different. Do you feel this is true.

I see the inside influenced by the outside. I think we're talking more about masks of the ego, thought.
Not sure what you're getting at, lemex. I personally see spirit consciousness as providing us with awareness, sentience, NOT the brain. I don't believe in two separate ways to express consciousness--ego and spirit. So while it may appear that the way you were raised is determinant of your personality, I propose that one's personality is almost entirely determined by how your consciousness reacts, internalizes, accepts, and interprets. Environmental influence is the popular version. But I say it is non-local spirit consciousness is what forms us. The story about a physical brain, or an ego creating a conscious identity that is aware of itself, on its own, is highly improbable. And philosophically corrupt I might add.

declan
22-12-2015, 04:26 PM
A spiritual practice for awareness of the ego is to try and speak without using the word "I".When you come to a point where you cannot talk,what is left is awareness.Then try not to think in terms of "I" and what is left?

Internal Queries
22-12-2015, 04:33 PM
A spiritual practice for awareness of the ego is to try and speak without using the word "I".When you come to a point where you cannot talk,what is left is awareness.Then try not to think in terms of "I" and what is left?


why? why should the "I Am" be discarded?

i am genuinely curious as to why the self is so unwanted that it should be disappeared.

Horse
22-12-2015, 05:07 PM
maybe our concepts of God?


it is not an illusion that i stand as a separate entity from you and other individuals. experiencing and expressing in this reality makes it so.

however, metaphorically speaking, each individual piece of light lit colored glass in a kaleidoscope is part of a whole mirror reflected and shifting pattern.

Maybe. Kinda like the particle and the wave situation I suppose. If you mistake a rope for a snake, its a snake until you realise its a rope. Seeing the snake was an illusion, but at the same time its real until it becomes an illusion. Upon realising its an illusion, the illusion ceases to exist. Like those optical illusions where when you see the second image, you will always be able to see it from then on but you only see it when you see it.

A spiritual practice for awareness of the ego is to try and speak without using the word "I".When you come to a point where you cannot talk,what is left is awareness.Then try not to think in terms of "I" and what is left?
Does this practice work for you?

Internal Queries
22-12-2015, 06:25 PM
Seeing the snake was an illusion, but at the same time its real until it becomes an illusion.

i guess i prefer to metaphorically see my self (and others) as a light revealed expression(s), part of a beautiful and much larger pattern of ever changing color, than a rope mistaken for a snake.

to each their own metaphor.

Mr Interesting
22-12-2015, 07:26 PM
I know in my own understanding that machines are imperfect but that they are also as perfect as we can make them. That planned obsolescence whereby machines wear out at a defined pace is a catch cry for all that is wrong with the modern world for many but it is also a very pragmatic way to encompass the rates of change that we are able to follow.

So people then have a choice. They can complain and bemoan that perfection isn't within our grasp when for our level of willingness to understand how things are then it should rightly be so or we can see things as they really are and decide to understand that and make allowances under our own steam and be as decisive within any accepted framework as we might choose to be.

And is ego any different? Is it a machine we have expectations to keep performing as we think it might, no hands on and no willingness to pull it apart and decide what it is for ourselves.

There was a while ago a video which featured Krishnamurti discussing this and that with some science boffins and I only watched a few minutes but I was entirely impressed with the man getting the boffin to a point where he saw his responsibilities in a far wider context than it seemed he'd ever been able to see. And in this it makes me think of those enlightened souls who have seen the realities which they have seen and are then faced with the inexplicable need to explain to novices a way to actually get there but also know that the perspectives required are simply not available to the novice. But then we down at the novicial ends keep trying to persuade the enlightened ones to speak in ways that our perspectives allow us to see,,,, basically that which cannot be seen until the perspectives are gained.

I though have allowed myself that which women have always allowed themselves and that is the ability to change my mind and therein too can ego be that which suits the circumstances I might find myself in.

running
22-12-2015, 09:10 PM
What is your definition of Ego?

My identity.

lemex
22-12-2015, 09:36 PM
I personally see spirit consciousness as providing us with awareness, sentience, NOT the brain.


I don't think anyone is saying consicousness is a by-product of the brain (matter). I don't see that either. What I have intrepted is you see spirit consciousnesses which are separate, the number of people. This is knida like karma.

It is ego that comes from the brain, not you. Ego is a by product.

This is where we differ maybe. There is consciousness and matter. The spirit consciousness seems to be consistant with physical things around it more then itself. Again, what I have said can't be proven, only inferred.

What part if any does intellect play which seem to override awareness, spiritual consciousness. It is not the type of spiritual consciousness. There are not separate concsiousness just egos the brain sees. I have to agree with what was said, the ego is adaptive and protective. Much of who we see ourselves as simply come from such things as past, images, even society, etc. more then spiritual consciousness.

If people can change their preception that can change ego. I take this from the fact that people can change. I do think the brain helps in this as it organizes consciousness.

Wanted to say, I just may not be seeing the meaning because I am quilty of trying to change so that keeps me from seeing.

lemex
22-12-2015, 09:48 PM
My identity.

Yes, what I think my identity is versus what my indentity is. Do you mean this?

This is how I would say it.

running
23-12-2015, 05:19 AM
Yes, what I think my identity is versus what my indentity is. Do you mean this?

This is how I would say it.

I just mean my ego is who i am as a person.

declan
23-12-2015, 08:25 AM
why? why should the "I Am" be discarded?

i am genuinely curious as to why the self is so unwanted that it should be disappeared.

The "I am" is limited and can not always deal with the"what is".Every ego or self is an illusion.If one Develops an awareness of being present in the moment,by subduing the ego(even for a short while) you have achieved a higher state of Being.If you ever meet a person who has overcome their ego you will recognise a person at peace.

declan
23-12-2015, 08:42 AM
Does this practice work for you?[/QUOTE]
Hi Barnacle.For this practice to work , you need to think before you speak.If the sentence contains the word "I" don,t speak.Try to find a different way to express what it is you wish to communicate.After a few minutes you will fall into silence.Then turn your awareness for example towards your breath or your finger tips or some object that is here and now and that should bring you to presence or egolessness, until your ego reasserts itself again.

Gem
23-12-2015, 11:26 AM
Gem. Very level-headed reply. I appreciated it. :wink:
On that video you recommended, the seven part one. I do intend to look at it when I have more time. I'm sure I saw it years ago and vaguely remember being frustrated with krishnamurti.

Hahahaha. Yea - he's an old goat. Tee hee.

Internal Queries
23-12-2015, 12:48 PM
The "I am" is limited and can not always deal with the"what is".Every ego or self is an illusion.If one Develops an awareness of being present in the moment,by subduing the ego(even for a short while) you have achieved a higher state of Being.If you ever meet a person who has overcome their ego you will recognise a person at peace.

speak for your illusionary self only. my selfhood is not an illusion. i am existent and i am at peace with the fact i exist. if you're always striving to subdue and achieve it's not a wonder that you're not at peace w/ Being a self.

Mr Interesting
23-12-2015, 07:19 PM
I've quite enjoyed going through this thread especially when Jyotir took the time to explain 'individualtion' and then running came in and wrote 'my identity' as I'm much more interested in the transition than I am with identifying in detail the beginning and end points.

So I was reminded of that one brief moment a few years ago where I seemingly dropped into what might be termed the ultimate reality and how, with Jyotir's and Running's jottings that the identity I still carried with me saw and felt within raw potentiality... identification.

That is to say that this diminishing sense of identification was still there and was the reference through which I read the potential whereas possibly in years to come another visit might yield less identification and more pure nothingness/everythingness.

Visitor
27-12-2015, 10:38 AM
Ego is nothing more than a fabricated story for the mind trying to make sense of itself.

Deepsoul
29-12-2015, 07:01 AM
Do we need the ego to function in the world or can we just function by spirit, for years ive tried to connect with spirit and believe I have in many different ways ,I get God telling me stuff and showing me stuff and now have full kundalini activation, except maybe the third eye can be troublesome , I have to do constant grounding exercises ,I am coming up from the very bottom ,so today it was like I'm having all this great spirit stuff but I'm like how do I get this all to come togeths so I can function out there again, I think I reengaged my ego to a degree because that is all I know when I want to try to control something and so and I feel flat as a tack ,but can see everthing plain as day in fact its sort of being shown through spirit in a way ,I was grumpy ,sensitive, stale ,judgemental and very assertive, are these the things I need to get ahead again ,I hope not ,so gotta try strike this balance a bit more , its just when spirit is free flowing through me ,I feel a bit unnavigated ,but I see really the only way is to give myself over to the power more, for one I'm much happier and pray for a amicable solution..

Deepsoul
29-12-2015, 07:46 AM
It seems maybe I just had more duality to face ,I guess its never ending Idk ,feeling much better and realising how important awareness is as I re-emerge as my true self...

Visitor
29-12-2015, 09:11 AM
Hi Deepsoul.
Do we need the ego to function in the world or can we just function by spirit...
Both.
Ego and spirit can be opposites.

Ego is a fabricated story, by the mind, to make sense of itself. It is basically our false-self. It is not valid, and is always trying to validate itself.
The more self-convinced it becomes the more self-esteem (ego-energy) it has invested in itself. What comes with this is a greater fear of losing that investment.
However, the ego fears its truth, its invalidity, becoming exposed. Some egos will even kill to avoid its truth... and even kill itself (suicide) to preserve its delusion of pride.
The ego that cannot escape its truth is humbled. The ego oblivious to its truth is proud.
Moreover, the ego's primary function is to protect itself, and by doing so it provides the motivation for our survival and sexual instincts.
In this regard, the ego does have a function in the world.

The spirit, unblemished by false beliefs, is basically true and loving. It knows that it is not here for itself, but for the One that sent it. Whereas the ego just thinks it is here for itself.
The spirit is here, in the body, to use the body to express its self - truth and love. However, because it is not here for itself, it waits for us to allow it to express its true nature.
The spirit can only express itself, through us, if we allow it to. We do this by quieting the ego self to such an anonymous state that its vacancy creates room for our spirit to move in and take its place.
Through self abandonment we become fearless and unconditional. We can freely love the love that loves us. All tension vanishes and the expressed love of the spirit, radiates through us, as a witness of God's Grace on this world.
In this regard, the spirit does have a function in the world.

Deepsoul
29-12-2015, 09:26 AM
Thankyou Visitor so ,when I say something like I love myself unconditionally ,that's ok hey because that's how God loves me and we still need a self that is co-creating ,I mean its wonderful when I am in close contact with Jesus ,I get this amazing body feeling ,truly like light in my body ,buzzing ,its like the more I praise the Lord with Love the better i feel, i mean its me that decides to breath deeply and summon spirit ,by this way or reference and so this self that is me is an important part of welcoming spirit.

ps thankyou also for the amazing reply to my PM I learnt a lot from it truly too.

Visitor
29-12-2015, 09:44 AM
It sounds good.
It is as if our soul longs to return to God. Loving God unconditionally opens wide the channel for truth and love to flow. God consciousness is experiencing God's Grace.
Jesus loved God so unconditionally that he transfigured into a light being.

Jyotir
06-01-2016, 02:23 PM
Hello Rokon,

re: OP & posts 49-55 and your response (post #63):

I'm familiar with the story, I just don't buy it.
Maybe that’s because it’s not for sale in ‘Asgard’, your chosen (either ironically humorous, ideal, or actual) location.

Perhaps the ‘stories’ you prefer are just different - which is fine by me, really - but then, the implication of your post isn’t so much about ‘this is what works for me and my ego’, but rather, a facile summary dismissal of what works for others.

You say that you’re familiar, but your post seems to indicate either a serious lack of comprehension or retention, or else a deliberate cherry-picking of key words upon which those reactive facile dismissals issue forth without much or any meaningful elaborative explanation; or conversely, conveniently avoiding given explanations which do anticipate and cogently address legitimate concerns.

But that’s the prerogative of being (apparently) a writer for ‘Ego Defender’ magazine, where the word ‘story’, implying ‘fiction’, is used numerous times, perhaps as an implied derogation? Why that is, if that is the case, perhaps requires your own ‘story’, and that’s OK, if that is your own story :-)

There are too many flaws in the story regardless of how well it is presented. I must apologize. But if there are “too many” flaws, then certainly just one of them could be addressed? What I mean is: the explanation of ‘why‘ or ‘how’, not just the declaration of ‘that’.

Obviously you are well read and articulate in relating this story.
Thanks, but I see that in your next statement, you imply a personal authority based on experience, whereas here you seem to presume that another person’s conclusions are based simply on being “well read”. Wondering what is the basis of such presumption, again, addressing the issue of dismissal, and derogation as the sole or predominant content. But that can’t be due to ego, the ‘good guy’ in the room ;-)

But I have worked through this and I am not young and naive.
I have spent quite a bit of time with meditation and contemplation and have had wonderful, enlightening experiences.
I congratulate you on your achievements, especially if by, “I have worked through this”, you mean, you have transcended ego. And if you are not naïve, why then do you persist in denying a central concern of numerous and important spiritual practices within many traditions including occult. Meanwhile, youth has less to do with this denial, but in that case, at least one’s demonstrated naiveté is perhaps more excusable.

But the story you are relating has been so embellished by the old religious traditions that it borders on the absurd.
You mean like this?

Wiki:
.
Asgard was ruled by the senior god, the all-father, who had twelve names. He was the ruler of everything and the creator of heaven and earth. During a complex creation myth in which the cosmic cow licked Búri free from the ice, the sons of Buri's son, Bor, who were Odin, Vili and Vé, constructed the universe and put Midgard in it as a residence for the first human couple, Ask and Embla, whom they created from driftwood trees
Back to Earth:
Well, OK, if the story “has been so embellished by the old religious traditions that it borders on the absurd.”, then :
How so?
In terms of:
1) what these ‘embellishments’ are - noting that embellishment usually indicates the non-essential or extraneous ornament. So, I’m wondering how this possibly applies to a concern which is primary to spiritual practice; which leads to…
2) what exactly is it which is being embellished; and
3) how and why, those previous, “borders on the absurd” as if dripping with unrelated nugatory nonsense vs. the fairly concise outline of pertinent definition, concept and structure?

I’m genuinely interested in hearing your response to those questions, because the “old religious” traditions were originally much more rooted in direct cognition of esoteric truth and experience. It’s really some of the new religions (or crystalised obsolescent institutions of old ones) which are misguidedly promoting ego as orthodoxy ;-) etc. which is absurd. In any case, you’ve got some explaining to do…because so far you haven’t - you’ve simply declared a negation of what is not your preference.

They need more challenging, not blind acceptance. Ok! Like mentioned above, I’m awaiting your challenges, even the basic ones - not just a pronouncement that challenges are needed (ironic regarding the next comment on blind acceptance). What would those challenges be? And what are the deficiencies that are necessarily subject to challenge? Substantively - besides the bald inference of your personal preferences and aversions?

Meanwhile those who have and do put the theory to the test through actual practice are not blind, have and are challenging the ignorance itself. That is what counts - not sterile intellectual debate over preference and opinion.

for example, the ego is a false identity?
Yes, and it was explained why. Because employed as the sole basis of ‘identity’, since it is inherently limited, a distortion, ignorant - it is therefore by nature…false.

Who says?
First and foremost - ego itself - the most relevant point.

This is directly seen in the observation of life and its chaos, confusion, pain and suffering which originates in the primacy of ego as false cognition, resulting in ignorant action, which is the cause of pain and suffering. It’s the modus operandi of especially ordinary human culture, which spirituality attempts to transcend through various means.

Other than that, as a presentation of the problem, and as remedy or solution, countless legitimate spiritual teachers (meaning real achievement of mastery) throughout history right up into and including contemporary times, whose teachings in numerous traditions attest to this after accumulated lifetimes of dedication to self-discovery, assiduous examination of consciousness, and the achievement of realisation - so it’s less about ’who says’, than ‘who does’ - they all outline what the problem is and what the solutions are in various forms according to tradition. People have done it, and presented the prescription. There are examples extant. And many have revealed these principles in their various forms. There is a record that everyone has access to, can see, utilise and test in practice the testimony (theory) and pursue (in practice) same - themselves. But a complacent superficial skepticism can’t and won’t.

The ego can evolve.
Please tell me how this can be done.

I suggest the following experiment:
Consider a block of stone. That stone block is undeniably unique as an exclusive concentration of qualities in general, and specifically among other blocks of stone - all of them; completely unique. Yet that stone - a marvel of uniqueness as it is, cannot carve itself into a sculpture. You could wait for eternity while it sits there. For that transformation to occur, a higher principle per this metaphor - sculptor - must be invoked and applied to effect that change. The stone surrenders to the true master.

Regarding ego as the complete differentiation of a human being - not true, and it can’t transform itself - because it is ignorant and does not have the knowledge or capacity. You can see this with the (’separate’) physical after death - it disintegrates. What happens therefore is what we see in life - the circular re-processing of ignorant cognition and action albeit in ever shifting forms. It is the soul/jivatman, gnostic which is the highest part of being that would be that principle needed to effect the transformation. But as long as ego remains in thrall of its own ignorance as ‘truth’ and therefore remains ‘in control’ (in actuality just the opposite - enslaved), ignorance prevails as the ‘master‘ of reality - in and through the individual being and further in the collective manifestation of same in the physical.

throwing out the baby with the bathwater is no solution.
This is not what is being suggested. But to apply your metaphor, perhaps more suitably - taking a bath in the same water everyday for the duration of one’s entire life is not the solution either!

Individual differentiation in the physical is real. Here we are. The perception of separation however is a false appearance, because simply, ‘we’ are in truth One Being however differentiated in form. False appearance of illusion doesn’t mean human beings aren’t real - it just means what we consider to be the substance of that reality is an incomplete and distorted perception leading to ‘false’ action (based on the illusion of separation vs Oneness) which has ongoing unfortunate consequence and dissatisfaction. That limited and limiting ignorance can be transcended while in the physical as an individuated being, by identification with the gnostic aspects of differentiated being - but not the ignorant aspect(s) which ego is and represents.

Within the context of the forgoing, “throwing out the baby with the bathwater ” might mean homicide or suicide, neither of which are desirable for the achievement of ego transcendence, nor has that been recommended since that would negate the possibility which life provides. This is because realisation has to take place in the physical where ignorance is the basis for an emergence of truth in and through the individuated life - - that is the value of individuation, but ego is not the entirety of that individuation (see ‘jivatman’, the gnostic principle of individuation). And - the emergence of truth is not possible by identifying with the ignorant parts of being i.e., ego/lower self.

Most seekers post-awakening in this transition resent the implication that their identity will cease or they must become unwilling slaves - the common complaints of long ego enthrallment on the verge of a new evolutionary agenda. Ego is fearful of losing what it thinks it is: the full i-dentity - and therefore resists and rebels. The soul knows what’s over the horizon - the true being, because it is that being in its scope of awareness of Self in all forms - true identity - not just as defined by the separative consciousness of ego which is a slave that perceives itself as sovereign.

And to blame ego for all things bad is overly simplistic.
But I didn’t.
Your statement is therefore overly simplistic as it is incorrect.

What I did say and it‘s important to understand the progression of cause and effect is this:
…false perception of reality by ego is intrinsic to, and originates in Cosmic Physical Nature. All subsequent actions… …fear, desire, insecurity, jealousy, pain, suffering, aggression, violence - all based in ego’s false, illusory, and ignorant cognition… … are adaptive consequent on this fundamental Cosmic Ignorance in which we live, evolve within, and are subject to - unless and until it is transformed or transcended by identification with, or surrender to higher unitive gnostic consciousness
A clear-minded observer might conclude that this is why getting out of the cycle of samsara is quite difficult. Especially so when the natural tendency is to protect and preserve the very instrument of samsara’s continuation. Ego simply attaches itself blindly to ‘lower’ Nature, the ignorance of it, and is controlled by it (ignorance is bliss) as a result, the ignorant aspects of it - because its very perception is rooted in that ignorance. Nature is also comprised of gnostic aspects, which are also differentiated in the individuated being, but ego is not gnostic by nature.

Please lets challenge this notion.
Please, let’s be intellectually honest and actually make the challenge - in substance.

Or - again, since ego represents an inversion of truth - recognise that what needs to be challenged is an unconscious orthodox dogma of ego supremacy as the false organising principle in life. (it really should be the soul - and hence the import of spirituality, vs. ego dominance) - that’s what spiritual evolution represents.

What does ego "do" that's bad or wrong?
Already explained - its an instrument of ignorant cognition. That means it sees reality in a false way and therefore operates in a false way. That’s why suffering exists. And just to be clear, ‘false’ in this sense is in contradistinction to truth. It’s not that this is ‘wrong’ or ‘bad’ in the moral sense, unless that conditional ignorance is perverted deliberately into evil. But it is a monumental and fatal weakness.

It’s significant that this construct is prevalent in well-regarded spiritual teaching, and why for instance the Allegory of Plato’s Cave is similar in content, if not structurally identical to Buddhist allegories of frogs stuck in wells. Because the cause and effect of this phenomenon is universal. (solutions may vary however)

By the story's definition castigating ego as false, wrong and our nemesis, these are judgments!
Poor ego - being judged!! And by judgmental dogmatists!

However…why cast discrimination of truth in a derogatory way - “story”, “castigation”, “judgement” - as if ‘judgement’ is bad when revealing truth - Ah, but then it is called discrimination, insight, discernment. Good stuff! And this is a good example of how convoluted these ego defences are.

Pre-awakening, ego isn’t seen as a “nemesis” - by itself - when one is blissfully living in ignorance. Rather, it’s the very instrument of that enjoyment. But that is a false bliss because in actuality it precipitates pain, suffering, confusion, limitation, and mortality. That only becomes relevant at the outset of ego’s demise, through awakening and spirituality, because to a real spirituality it is nemesis. And it takes incisive vision, vigilance, discrimination, self-examination etc., to see that there is a direct causation between ego/ignorance and resultant suffering - the way the world works 99% of the time - just observe the world...detached from it.

This is not a controversy - except to ego itself! That’s why it resists. It’s also why a true spiritual vision is an unprecedented blessing which comes from the emergence of higher principle as first experienced in awakening as a striking aberration of ‘normal’ ego-based cognition.

When human beings have the good fortune to be awakened, it is due to the descent of higher principle which is recognized by the ego as an intrusion (that’s what awakening is!) . At that time the possibility of transcending all that suffering is therefore also recognized - as a suggestion - and that is what sets people off on a spiritual journey - consciously. And that is when ego which was at first a willing unconscious instrument of desire, attached to other ignorant formations (which led to suffering), NOW becomes an impediment - it sees for the first time, the possibility of change and that is precisely why it resists it. Because the change means its demise as the dominant mode of being. This is precisely why people come here to this site - seekers often newly awakened - and voice concern and consternation over this difficult struggle - now awakened and exponentially more conscious. Because it is now a real conflict between truth and falsehood - now experienced subjectively within the seeker's life. Alas, many miss the point of what's happening and go on blaming 'organized religion' (an all too convenient externalized symbol) for what really ails.

There is an organic progression in spirituality in which the maintenance of status-quo actually becomes regressive. The purpose of legitimate spiritual teaching is to reveal, and support the way out of these delusions once they are recognised as such and a ‘person‘ becomes a spiritual aspirant. Prior to awakening, these discussions are largely irrelevant, except as a rudimentary moral/ethical regime for the purpose of personal deportment and general social cohesion and harmony.

However, in the (awakened) spiritual context (vs. conventionally ‘religious’ ), it’s more meaningful, and why the basis of these discussions. I’m sure there are plenty of forums devoted to various hedonic pursuits which do not need to parse these nuances, but it is significant here - and has been significant in the spiritual context for ages. It just may be new to some here, and/or they may be resistant or incredulous. That’s ok if people want to continue living through the ego. But by definition - that’s not spiritual. As well, if they will admit it - its not enduringly satisfying either.

Doesnt' the story imply that judgments like this come from ego itself?
Yes, but it’s actually more explicit: judgement (in the negative sense with condescension) does come from ego and that is the point - but not the whole story (as typified by ego). You’ve simplified your view by excluding relevant and essential aspects.

Judgement does come from ego including its implied condescension from a false sense of superiority which derives from an objective separative consciousness, reasoned conclusions based on intrinsically ignorant perception, distortion and illusion.

Discernment or discrimination on the other hand is not judgmental and doesn’t imply superiority as it derives from intuition which is from a subjective identification in unitary consciousness - direct knowledge by identity, not separation. It is knowing truth directly by being or becoming that truth no matter what form it takes - vs. the acquisition of objective ‘fact’, relative value, logical premise and circular reasoning or rationalisation, etc. which may not be truth.

It’s not only judgement which comes from ego, but the defence of ego itself that comes from ego. That’s what it does. That is why the insecurity which originates in separative consciousness leads to violence. Because ego sees itself as separate, it therefore sees various forces in nature (including other humans) as objectively separate from ‘itself’ - impinging, invading, conflicting, etc. - and not as simply different aspects of One Self, which in Truth it IS, but doesn’t see this in its separative ignorant cognition, by its identification with ignorance, because it perceives by ignorance.

Higher principle that is transcendent of ego and not bound by ignorance of True Identity doesn’t judge. It knows; it is inherently gnostic. It’s actions are confluent with the knowing of truth consciousness of One Being (which is also not exclusive of all beings), including within dynamic manifestation - which is presumably what spirituality leads to - not intellectual debates on why ego should be defended and preserved.

The story is much too dogmatic and unrealistic for me.
I hope you realise that such a statement is based in its own dogmatic propositions.

it needs refinement.
Go for it! That’s what life is for (using an extremely broad definition of ‘refinement’).

It would help the story's credibility if someone could actualize what is being proposed.Again - - what life is for, for each and all. So by all means, have at it.

But here is where the cynical rationales begin…
“I don’t know” doesn’t necessarily equate to “you are wrong”. “I won’t” or "not interested" doesn’t equal to “I can’t”.

It’s been done. Some have realised Self. They are the pioneers. Do some research vs. declaring it impossible - what has not been experienced. In this part of the journey the only ‘credibility’ is one’s own intuition and persistence…faith. You don’t have to accept that, but then where does it leave one…
with the false cognition of ego: materiality, ignorance, the finite, limitation, mortality?

Like your story here below, and it is quite telling of an easy discouragement, negation, invalidation. It’s merely an illustration of samsara and again, why what we are talking about is so difficult - even to see it as possible let alone to do it. Like the Upanishads say (rough paraphrase): “only one in a thousand wakes up and tries, and of those only one in a thousand succeeds”. While that’s equivalent to one in a million by my calculation - and I’m not sure how literal to take it, it’s still better odds than winning the lottery… or the ’grim reaper’.

But we meditate, we have periodic spiritual highs, then tell the world that ego is false, and you have seen the "real you".
And even though we have these spiritual highs, enlightening experiences, we still dont have our natural powers.
We still have insufficient memories.
We never really did feel the true oneness that we say we did.
We just nod to each other and pretend that we have ascended, or became enlightened.
Meanwhile we go back to work, live out dualistic existence until we die, forlorn, confused and cycle over again

Wow. That’s a dim, depressing and hopeless view of spiritual life, or any life - including whoever ‘we’ represents to you.

Meanwhile and perhaps related…
You’ve been a valiant ego-defender.
May Odin smile upon your application to Valhalla.
Just make sure you’re made of driftwood.

~ J

Rokon
06-01-2016, 03:45 PM
But that’s the prerogative of being (apparently) a writer for ‘Ego Defender’ magazine, where the word ‘story’, implying ‘fiction’, is used numerous times, perhaps as an implied derogation? Why that is, if that is the case, perhaps requires your own ‘story’, and that’s OK, if that is your own story :-)





Hello jyoda. I see that my comments have triggered you away from your normal style of well articulated gossamer platitudes. Is this the Dr Jekyll in you or perhaps it is that nasty ego that has inserted itself again. Just remember, the "real you" can't be triggered so easily so just click you heels three times when it happens again. :wink:

Internal Queries
06-01-2016, 04:15 PM
i'm good w/ my ego. i like my story.

CIRRUS
06-01-2016, 05:15 PM
The Ego is 'the enemy'.
It will try to prevent us from achieving our true purpose in life.

Light and Peace
Cirrus

GRoyal
08-01-2016, 08:59 PM
Good question. My understanding of who we are is a bit of a trinity. You have the infinite eternal being That comes into the body at conception, and leaves the body upon death, then the is the genetic information of your family tree, which gets express thru our alignment with the cosmic energy, which we are linked to at our point of conception, fined tuned by the moment of our birth into this world. What we see as ego is our infinite conscious awareness being filtered thru our genetic, and astrological connection to our finite bodies.

Deepsoul
08-01-2016, 10:23 PM
So its really not a dirty word afterall Groyal, its just when fear attaches to it ,it messes it around..

no1wakesup
09-01-2016, 01:26 AM
What anyone thinks ego to be is useless. Better to observe and potentially re-identify the unconscious process which is busy maintainIng and preserving it. Surface ego is nothing more then a symptom from a deeper core of perpetual interpretation. It is where the belief that "I think" replaced a process which is otherwise continuously feeding thought from an arsenal of conditioning.

Internal Queries
09-01-2016, 04:16 AM
The Ego is 'the enemy'.
It will try to prevent us from achieving our true purpose in life.

Light and Peace
Cirrus

speak for your self only, please. your ego is your enemy. my ego is an interesting self perception and an act of self expression, the perceiving and expressing of this particular selfhood Being my purpose.

Melahin
09-01-2016, 04:30 AM
The thing about light and dark is that they are one and the same, so is spirit and ego. Suffer one and both will suffer, yet cherish one and both will flourish :hug2:

Internal Queries
09-01-2016, 04:31 AM
..........

Deepsoul
09-01-2016, 05:53 AM
Yeah its too many labels ,being in the moment and knowing how your operating is much more important then trying to decide if your in ego or spirit , I think my new ego is much more aware of whats going on and it dosent entertain to much self scrutiny unless of cause I see it slipping too the wayside and then its time to call in spirit , still labelling lol

Deepsoul
09-01-2016, 06:38 AM
Maybe I could call spego, or egit, ha ha, really though I like to believe I'm coming from my spirit and the holy spirit...

Jon-Pax
10-02-2016, 02:52 PM
well ive grown up hearing that there is three facets to the ego a positive negative and neutral so one is harmful and one beneficial and one is