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I AM
08-12-2015, 02:55 AM
Do you think that thoughts are created by you?

Do you think thoughts are external independent things that come into your mind?

Are you aware of the thoughts in your head as you go about your day?

In what dimension do you think thoughts exist?

What are your thoughts on thoughts?

Silver
08-12-2015, 03:00 AM
Do you think that thoughts are created by you?

Do you think thoughts are external independent things that come into your mind?

Are you aware of the thoughts in your head as you go about your day?

In what dimension do you think thoughts exist?

What are your thoughts on thoughts?

I think my thoughts are created by the individual 'me' but there's something weird how they sometimes seem connected to others - sometimes just the thoughts and sometimes the thoughts and emotions.

Thoughts can be created any old way.

Yeah, am aware of thoughts as I go about my day (who isn't?)

Thoughts seem to have their own dimension.

Those are my thoughts on thoughts. :biggrin:

Miss Hepburn
08-12-2015, 03:15 AM
I have no idea....don't care.
What I do know is that thoughts can be dangerous if taken seriously.

They can be controlled...as in ...change the channel...change the thought.
Focus on thoughts of your choice and you will live a VERY happy, contented, fulfilled life...
take it from me...who has practiced deliberate Thought Control for a decade now...
and 30 years of meditation before that...if you must think...think thoughts of your choice! :wink:

Clover
08-12-2015, 03:23 AM
Miss. H, knows. http://cur.cursors-4u.net/smilies/images1/smi98.gif



For the most part, I tune them out with music. Anything that can relax and switch up the vibration, which is what music does for me.

naturesflow
08-12-2015, 04:12 AM
Do you think that thoughts are created by you?

Do you think thoughts are external independent things that come into your mind?

Are you aware of the thoughts in your head as you go about your day?

In what dimension do you think thoughts exist?

What are your thoughts on thoughts?

You arrived and became a product of what was already thought about. In that space of taking in and developing perception of yourself, your thoughts then become a product of you and others as one source. Until you become aware of those aspects of your own mind that are things that are not you but are one with you, then you will continue to think in this dual nature of thinking created by the others. Of course if you were raised to think for yourself and learn free from others thoughts creating yours, then I guess your lucky...

Everything is here and now, past present future are one...so now can tell you lots about thinking as being in dimensions..

What I think now is that my thinking is more about myself in the way I want to be rather than how I don't want to be. Sometimes my mind revisits the old dual nature of thinking but most often awareness kicks in fast and so it transforms rather quickly..

Aware of awareness/myself (in old form and new) helps with this.

naturesflow
08-12-2015, 04:15 AM
[QUOTE=Clover]Miss. H, knows. http://cur.cursors-4u.net/smilies/images1/smi98.gif

If she knows then wouldn't you say I know this for myself.



For the most part, I tune them out with music. Anything that can relax and switch up the vibration, which is what music does for me.

Music works well in this way.

declan
08-12-2015, 04:26 AM
"All thoughts are judgement."-Eckhardt tolle. This will give you an indication of where your thoughts come from and what they are.

IndigoViolet
08-12-2015, 04:39 AM
Do you think that thoughts are created by you?

Do you think thoughts are external independent things that come into your mind?

Are you aware of the thoughts in your head as you go about your day?

In what dimension do you think thoughts exist?

What are your thoughts on thoughts?

Do you think thoughts are created by you?
Nope. They aren't. They always are not.

Are you aware of the thoughts in your head as you go about your day?
Not really at the split second. I took action even before I knew what I was off to. Maybe I processed it without noticing that I do.

In what dimension do you think thoughts exist?
In your head man.

What are your thoughts on thoughts?
Thoughts come by finite infinity and you got to choose from the infinity. It is like a parellel mirror facing each other bouncing light in infinity, but one knows that this itself is not really a reflection of "true infinity". Even myself got banged on the head by those nasty ones, but only the base of this thought could save me from trapping by those reflective mirrors, and to look elsewhere out of the defined infinity.

naturesflow
08-12-2015, 04:46 AM
"All thoughts are judgement."-Eckhardt tolle. This will give you an indication of where your thoughts come from and what they are.

Is it a judgement when I think to myself I might go visit someone?

Rokon
08-12-2015, 04:50 AM
My thoughts are my creation and they exist here in this dimension, with me, and other places too. :]

I love thinking thoughts but "doing" is much more fun.

naturesflow
08-12-2015, 09:51 AM
My thoughts are my creation and they exist here in this dimension, with me, and other places too. :]

I love thinking thoughts but "doing" is much more fun.

Do you just do the doing, without thinking?
Yeah right.

zombie love fest maybe?

Gem
08-12-2015, 11:06 AM
Sometimes I think them and other times they occur to me, but I haven't really come to understand clearly the imputes for them - I don't attempt to control and change them since I figure, maybe it needs to complete its whole process. It also occurs to me that I arose as a thought and have to keep going to completion, and best left to do that. I figure it wouldn't be in my attention unless I was already engaged by it, so I don't see a need to interfere with it. They soon expire and I'm engaged with something else, which in turn I think all the way through. Once I've thought things through I don't need to think it anymore, and I just move on to my next stroke of genius. Eureka!

naturesflow
08-12-2015, 11:21 AM
I just move on to my next stroke of genius. Eureka![/

No flies on you...:cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOUsc8Tcew

naturesflow
08-12-2015, 11:22 AM
I just realized you could read this in this way-What are your thoughts on thoughts? Like thoughts on top of thoughts in a pancake stack in your head..Imagine that????

Rah nam
08-12-2015, 11:54 AM
I AM: Do you think that thoughts are created by you?
Do you think thoughts are external independent things that come into your mind?

thoughts are always created by us.
having said this, not everything we observe are thoughts.
most what we observe are energy packets floating around in the mind, not unlike the www.
As far as I know the Hippocampus is the link to the mind. The mind is a structure that spans the globe and we access it according our current vibration. As we progress we access different levels of the mind. In the same way, we have a difficult day at the office, our vibration drops and we access a different level at that time.

Are you aware of the thoughts in your head as you go about your day?

I am aware of all kinds of things floating around and I can choose to hold on to it or let go. If I hold on to it, it becomes part of me, part of my thought processes.

In what dimension do you think thoughts exist?

Every level of existence has it's own mind, and we access the mind on the level we are at.

Rokon
08-12-2015, 03:52 PM
Do you just do the doing, without thinking?
Yeah right.

zombie love fest maybe?
Weird image alert!

No, think driving a race car versus watching someone else do it.

Rokon
08-12-2015, 04:02 PM
One of the most strangest storylines I run across in science fiction the ability to "download" thoughts and memories from one's brain. As if a thought is zeros and ones in discrete packets.To me this is comically absurd. Lucy, Transcendence, Farscape.

The nature of a single thought. Now there's a challenge!

Baile
08-12-2015, 04:07 PM
One of the most strangest storylines I run across in science fiction the ability to "download" thoughts and memories from one's brain. As if a thought is zeros and ones in discrete packets.To me this is comically absurd. Lucy, Transcendence, Farscape.Why is that any more absurd than say believing Jesus is coming back? I'm serious, a bit like poo-pooing the notion of aliens while believing in time travel... or whatever. These are all just belief paradigm choices we make.

Rokon
08-12-2015, 04:26 PM
Why is that any more absurd than say believing Jesus is coming back? I'm serious, a bit like poo-pooing the notion of aliens while believing in time travel... or whatever. These are all just belief paradigm choices we make.
Yes, it's part of a belief paradigm that thoughts are discrete packets of data that must be like bits and bytes. It's **. [OMG, I can't believe B and S are snagged by the forum's profanity bot] I think it reflects how elusive a characterization of thoughts has been, for science, for movie-goers alike. But the notion is great entertainment I'll have to admit.

Miss Hepburn
08-12-2015, 04:31 PM
I love this quote, write it a lot here, this group should like it...

Thoughts are like birds overhead...You can't control them,
but you certainly can control one making a nest in your hair!

Kenneth Hagin

:wink:

declan
08-12-2015, 04:39 PM
Is it a judgement when I think to myself I might go visit someone?
Did you make a decision?

Shinsoo
08-12-2015, 04:40 PM
Thoughts are thoughts--they can encourage bad things to happen, and good things. They are very strong on the spiritual path--they play a huge role in manifestation.

naturesflow
08-12-2015, 08:33 PM
Did you make a decision?

I suppose I do.

Is that a judgement

Or choice to act in doing?

Lerena
08-12-2015, 10:40 PM
Do you think that thoughts are created by you?

Do you think thoughts are external independent things that come into your mind?

Are you aware of the thoughts in your head as you go about your day?

In what dimension do you think thoughts exist?

What are your thoughts on thoughts?

Some thoughts are created by me, but I do not create all of my thoughts.

Thoughts can be externally independent things that enter my mind, yes, but sentient beings can think up whatever they want. This suggests that thoughts can originate from our own efforts as well. So, not all thoughts are external. Think of the mind as an entrance, an exit, and a home. Things can enter it and things can leave it but more importantly the mind can be the birthplace for a thought. While our mind is ours alone, we can have visitors too.

I am aware of my thoughts. I live in my head. This is both a positive and a negative, but I am trying to work on expanding my outlook to my emotions as well.

Thoughts exist in a higher dimension. I cannot tell you which one.

I believe that thoughts are fun to have. I enjoy thinking. My thoughts also make me a sentient being.

Mr Interesting
08-12-2015, 10:59 PM
I quite like questions like this because my first instinct is that I don't have to read through all the other answers to get a kind of built up group thing but that it's a one on one whereby it's between just me and the questions. Is that a thought or does it come from a bit deeper? I don't know. But even before I apply myself to the actual questions I'm intrigued by what my answers might be when I actually look at them and have done this part, sorting out the how and am now ready.
Do you think that thoughts are created by you?

I have no idea... I can call them mine but it doesn't mean they are but that's beside the point if they're useful as in I have a use for them then that's what count's.


Do you think thoughts are external independent things that come into your mind?
Well, the answer above answers this too, either or it makes no difference really.

Are you aware of the thoughts in your head as you go about your day?

Yup.


In what dimension do you think thoughts exist?
The thought dimension... I suppose.


What are your thoughts on thoughts?

My thoughts on thoughts must be... thoughts. I just thought, actually, that thought is almost through except there is an 'r' almost at the beginning of through and a 't' tacked on the end of thought.... therefore the most important part of the word is somehow though and that almost seems an afterthought of thou...

lemex
09-12-2015, 07:25 PM
Do you think thoughts are external independent things that come into your mind?



If you mean a nonlocal process or mind to, I'd say no to this part of the question. Why, because this mean the outside mind doesn't know itself or is hidden to the local one and this shouldn't be the case if it existed. What is the purpose of that. And an external source (such as God/Spirit/etc) means it's already existent and knowing which means we should also know. Yet in this realm everything seems to be based on physical development of the thought instrument (brain).

Two separate thoughts spiritual/physical means one preexists does it not, yet this mean one would already know what is expected. I'd say local thought reigns and seems to be based more on such local things as society, location, emotion.

The thought for me here is imagine experience without the body and how it will be with all the attachments that generate and influent it are gone. Imagine decision then and how different it would be. Many times here I know I have said why did I just do that...

LiberationAwaits
10-12-2015, 03:16 AM
They come and go, like emotions, and waves.

Gem
10-12-2015, 04:32 AM
No flies on you...:cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOUsc8Tcew (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fww w.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D8eOUsc8Tcew)
I'm glad someone answered me because I only need the slightest prompt and a whole new train of thought opens up - which is about my medition with the fly. It was a long retreat of 12 days and at one stage a fly came in and would land on me and crawl around. I just wave it off but it came back. It was there for a day and won't leave me alone, which was OK, then the next day it was still there, which was a bit irritating after a few hours. It was still there on the third day and I was getting murderous enough going to kill it, but a part of retreat is not to kill anything for the duration. There's no way out. No way of solving it.

naturesflow
10-12-2015, 06:58 AM
I'm glad someone answered me because I only need the slightest prompt and a whole new train of thought opens up - which is about my medition with the fly. It was a long retreat of 12 days and at one stage a fly came in and would land on me and crawl around. I just wave it off but it came back. It was there for a day and won't leave me alone, which was OK, then the next day it was still there, which was a bit irritating after a few hours. It was still there on the third day and I was getting murderous enough going to kill it, but a part of retreat is not to kill anything for the duration. There's no way out. No way of solving it.

You sound like me,not about flies but train of thought and connections abound. It does my head in sometimes so meditating with flies sounds like a fun way to switch it off or not....:wink:

I love this whole experience you underwent..lol Just envisioning you and the fly in this charade of sorts makes me giggle big time...:D



I hope the retreat went well for you.

How do you feel afterwards when you come back home? Is it kind of crash landing back into reality or a slow moving shift back?

Gem
10-12-2015, 08:39 AM
You sound like me,not about flies but train of thought and connections abound. It does my head in sometimes so meditating with flies sounds like a fun way to switch it off or not....:wink:

I love this whole experience you underwent..lol Just envisioning you and the fly in this charade of sorts makes me giggle big time...:D
Indeed. Quite the lark. And the little feller taught me more that any supposed spiritual teacher ever has.

I hope the retreat went well for you.

How do you feel afterwards when you come back home? Is it kind of crash landing back into reality or a slow moving shift back?
All retreat is good.

It takes a couple of days to get back to the general mill of the social world, and it's not a good idea just to leap back into it, but a day or two of assimilation is best.

RedEmbers
10-12-2015, 10:29 AM
They just are.

Until you decide to do something with them, question them, act on them, shift them, change them, keep them... they are just thoughts.

I'm more concerned with actions...

I am entitled to my thoughts and I am equally responsible to question my thoughts.

naturesflow
10-12-2015, 11:19 AM
[QUOTE=Gem]Indeed. Quite the lark. And the little feller taught me more that any supposed spiritual teacher ever has.

Yes I can imagine.




It takes a couple of days to get back to the general mill of the social world, and it's not a good idea just to leap back into it, but a day or two of assimilation is best.

yes I wondered how you feel moving back into the world after a retreat that long..

Gem
10-12-2015, 09:05 PM
[quote]

Yes I can imagine.






yes I wondered how you feel moving back into the world after a retreat that long..
Well, because a person is never letting up and is getting consistently deeper day after day, the system gets too sensitive for the world as we know it (not to mention the sensitivity of deep healing). The ashram is a different world. There's none the competitiveness, none of the chitter chatter of meaningless conversation, no stimuli like fancy lights and piped music and revved up radio stations - no news shows and all that silly TV ga ga, and none of this internet nonsense. People don't realise how distracting that all is, or how it's all amped up to titillate and excite, get everyone rushing and consuming and chasing the next petty item of pleasure. Yep - two different planets, totally. It's basically like taking a long relaxing holiday and then slowly getting back into work for a couple of days, basically.

naturesflow
10-12-2015, 09:19 PM
[quote=naturesflow]
Well, because a person is never letting up and is getting consistently deeper day after day, the system gets too sensitive for the world as we know it (not to mention the sensitivity of deep healing). The ashram is a different world. There's none the competitiveness, none of the chitter chatter of meaningless conversation, no stimuli like fancy lights and piped music and revved up radio stations - no news shows and all that silly TV ga ga, and none of this internet nonsense. People don't realise how distracting that all is, or how it's all amped up to titillate and excite, get everyone rushing and consuming and chasing the next petty item of pleasure. Yep - two different planets, totally. It's basically like taking a long relaxing holiday and then slowly getting back into work for a couple of days, basically.

Yes I call this a total unplugging to rejuvenate the self deeper.

Its important in so many ways as I see it.

In many ways I have observed my nature move from being a quiet reflective introvert as a child into teen/adult, then in the coming out stages becoming more a extrovert where I engaged myself and the world in so many ways of that reaching in, reaching out, taking in, giving out. I find now in the coming back to my *normal* nature I am wanting to do less with more balance in this way.

Last night I set up my easel and paint and found an alone space and painted for two hours... It was as good as a mini retreat for me. totally immersed myself. Sometimes I feel myself wanting and needing a longer stretch, so I can see how retreats like this would take you much deeper into that space..I keep looking at them online. I would like a yoga and meditation, healthy eating, lots of silence and nature..When I can afford it I will do this.

Gem
11-12-2015, 09:16 AM
[quote=Gem]

Yes I call this a total unplugging to rejuvenate the self deeper.

Its important in so many ways as I see it.
Oh yea - good to be put alone. Many never do it and they find it hard, but when you face yourself, and also face who you are not, you can emerge - not like a butterfly or any of that romantic dreamy stuff, but as something more dangerous - like the compassion involved in killing an animal to save its unnecessary suffering. You know - realistic like that.

In the Latin origin, 'com' means 'together/with', and 'pati' means 'to suffer' - to suffer with. 'Passion' was later used to refer to the suffering of Christ, so Christiandom distorted the original Latin and made it their own. The Eastern version, in Pali, 'Karuna', means the ability to feel the suffering of another - which is closest to our word 'empathy'.

There is a very big difference between 'feel with' and 'feel for'. 'Feel for' is where another's pain makes you feel uncomfortable so you squirm about for some kind of solution (remember the fly story has no solution). The face of who you are is the 'feel with'... as one is not other than themselves, hence cannot 'feel for'. See what I mean? (I tend to come in a roundabout way, because when I start, I haven't any idea where it's going to end - and that's how thought is thunk).

In many ways I have observed my nature move from being a quiet reflective introvert as a child into teen/adult, then in the coming out stages becoming more a extrovert where I engaged myself and the world in so many ways of that reaching in, reaching out, taking in, giving out. I find now in the coming back to my *normal* nature I am wanting to do less with more balance in this way.
Right, you're not nice anymore. hahahah. I mean that a compliment - it's meant to say you became a force to be reckoned with, yet not one iota of malice or ill-will at all. I can't do words for this one.

Last night I set up my easel and paint and found an alone space and painted for two hours... It was as good as a mini retreat for me. totally immersed myself. Sometimes I feel myself wanting and needing a longer stretch, so I can see how retreats like this would take you much deeper into that space..I keep looking at them online. I would like a yoga and meditation, healthy eating, lots of silence and nature..When I can afford it I will do this.
That does sound wonderful, just make a date to go and - bazinga! :smile:

naturesflow
11-12-2015, 11:46 AM
[QUOTE=Gem][quote=naturesflow]
Oh yea - good to be put alone. Many never do it and they find it hard, but when you face yourself, and also face who you are not, you can emerge - not like a butterfly or any of that romantic dreamy stuff, but as something more dangerous - like the compassion involved in killing an animal to save its unnecessary suffering. You know - realistic like that.

Yes the facing of who you are not can be tough as hell. There is no solution other than to open and allow what is occurring in you in the face of these things. I understand what your saying. For me walking through this was like a compassionate hell of sorts..It wasn't pretty at all. Its interesting that many have awakenings where they have all the heightened butterfly affects, where as most of my awakenings didn't really hold what I would call butterfly bliss affects. For me it was more often than not the dark night state, in the whole clearing out of my psyche. Almost like a harsh reality check of the worse kind, more often than pretty stuff..I suppose this only showed me how deep my fears were running in everyway of myself. So that would make sense.

In the Latin origin, 'com' means 'together/with', and 'pati' means 'to suffer' - to suffer with. 'Passion' was later used to refer to the suffering of Christ, so Christiandom distorted the original Latin and made it their own. The Eastern version, in Pali, 'Karuna', means the ability to feel the suffering of another - which is closest to our word 'empathy'.

Yes.

There is a very big difference between 'feel with' and 'feel for'. 'Feel for' is where another's pain makes you feel uncomfortable so you squirm about for some kind of solution (remember the fly story has no solution). The face of who you are is the 'feel with'... as one is not other than themselves, hence cannot 'feel for'. See what I mean? (I tend to come in a roundabout way, because when I start, I haven't any idea where it's going to end - and that's how thought is thunk).

Yes I understand what you mean. This part is clear.


Right, you're not nice anymore. hahahah. I mean that a compliment - it's meant to say you became a force to be reckoned with, yet not one iota of malice or ill-will at all. I can't do words for this one.

This fits in some strange weird way in me reading this. Recently I was thinking what a lousy friend I am in so many ways of my living now. (comparing to the 0ther me of course)This shift from the old way of feeling as you mentioned to opening to clear in me the feel for, has kind of pushed me even deeper in some ways. Where it all is in me, but I only have to just be as myself and feel for others and get on with life....Living more authentically, aware of others in this way, (without the feeling of running from myself or them, just more ok with it all as it is) I think I read a long time ago when you said, really we only have to love and support others, where we can. That's it really. I am there for people/family if needed, but I don't hold myself up against any feeling to be doing anything anymore. Other than I want too and I care enough to do it and can do. Its rather a big turnaround and one where others see your change and wonder about you and what your being and doing in your non doing and no need too space. Like are you ok? Is everything alright? Yep I am ok are you ok? (I know why my brother when dying opened to using this expression now towards others ).:)




That does sound wonderful, just make a date to go and - bazinga! :smile:


Bazinga...is that like a dance of righto, ok, just do it kind of word? (I have no idea)

Gem
12-12-2015, 10:42 AM
[quote][quote=Gem]

Yes the facing of who you are not can be tough as hell. There is no solution other than to open and allow what is occurring in you in the face of these things. I understand what your saying. For me walking through this was like a compassionate hell of sorts..It wasn't pretty at all. Its interesting that many have awakenings where they have all the heightened butterfly affects, where as most of my awakenings didn't really hold what I would call butterfly bliss affects. For me it was more often than not the dark night state, in the whole clearing out of my psyche. Almost like a harsh reality check of the worse kind, more often than pretty stuff..I suppose this only showed me how deep my fears were running in everyway of myself. So that would make sense.
It's tough as hell. No doubt about it. It's very serious and there's no doing it by halves, or in parts - it's a total clearing out, and the very fear of death. We really don't grasp the gravity of this thing - my word, I can't express the vitality of it all.

Yes.


Yes I understand what you mean. This part is clear.


This fits in some strange weird way in me reading this. Recently I was thinking what a lousy friend I am in so many ways of my living now. (comparing to the 0ther me of course)This shift from the old way of feeling as you mentioned to opening to clear in me the feel for, has kind of pushed me even deeper in some ways. Where it all is in me, but I only have to just be as myself and feel for others and get on with life....Living more authentically, aware of others in this way, (without the feeling of running from myself or them, just more ok with it all as it is) I think I read a long time ago when you said, really we only have to love and support others, where we can. That's it really. I am there for people/family if needed, but I don't hold myself up against any feeling to be doing anything anymore. Other than I want too and I care enough to do it and can do. Its rather a big turnaround and one where others see your change and wonder about you and what your being and doing in your non doing and no need too space. Like are you ok? Is everything alright? Yep I am ok are you ok? (I know why my brother when dying opened to using this expression now towards others ).:)
Right - I thing the feel for is not compassion, and the feel with is compassion. I encounter some pretty forlorn people, and I understand how hard life is, so I feel it - but I don't want to make it 'better', because to me, it's OK already, hard as it might be, and I don't have the solutions and am powerless in making it go away. At first I wanted to be able to help, but then I saw that I can't want because isn't an action, to feel with. Mostly there's nothing I can do even if I did want to. Things get better or not, I don't know, I usually can't do anything about that, but can 'be with it'. Secretly, deep in me there, I secretly hold a desire that anyone who encounters me will benefit by that in some small way - but that's not kindness, I know - it's just a bit of my own vanity. Hahahaha.

Yep I remember you told me about the inscription on your brother's headstone - and well said.

Bazinga...is that like a dance of righto, ok, just do it kind of word? (I have no idea)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfZuh4rGaiI

(if the link doesn't work, copy an paste it into your search thingy)

naturesflow
12-12-2015, 01:26 PM
[QUOTE=Gem][quote=naturesflow][quote]
It's tough as hell. No doubt about it. It's very serious and there's no doing it by halves, or in parts - it's a total clearing out, and the very fear of death. We really don't grasp the gravity of this thing - my word, I can't express the vitality of it all.

Yes at total clearing out, is exactly it, there is no other way if your on this path to end it... The fear of death, can hold us in ways that is extremely serious and incredibly debilitating even walking through the process of ending this. I think about my own process and see how important the whole preparation was leading to that point. I am talking twenty years of preparation to work through the deeper core ingrained "cant" let go stuff. I cant even imagine anyone not being prepared to hold this space and retain some measure of sanity, to get through. I was obviously prepared, but I felt I wasn't, but I know I was...

Right - I thing the feel for is not compassion, and the feel with is compassion. I encounter some pretty forlorn people, and I understand how hard life is, so I feel it - but I don't want to make it 'better', because to me, it's OK already, hard as it might be, and I don't have the solutions and am powerless in making it go away. At first I wanted to be able to help, but then I saw that I can't want because isn't an action, to feel with. Mostly there's nothing I can do even if I did want to. Things get better or not, I don't know, I usually can't do anything about that, but can 'be with it'. Secretly, deep in me there, I secretly hold a desire that anyone who encounters me will benefit by that in some small way - but that's not kindness, I know - it's just a bit of my own vanity. Hahahaha.

Things do get better or not. This is it. I believe every interaction occurs to bring together something, which can be anything really..either way... Sometimes its not known or it is obvious, you can feel something moving between you and the other in some way of that connection, but its not really up to us to know what is being related for the other. We can feel and sense things in ourselves and in another, well I can,but I feel now most often that I am just one piece of many pieces of my own and another's puzzle coming together or coming apart... ultimately whatever is moving between opens up much to know or not know.. I find if I get out of my own way and just allow it to be, it flows where it will. I am finding I am getting better at letting all desire go and allowing things to just be and unfold as they will. I will always step up to what I can offer, but its not something I set up or set out to do..I wonder nowdays whether sometimes my natural intuitive response knows naturally when I am part of process or no need to be part. That seems to be the case more often than not. Like I don't have to try, my natural discernment kicks in without me even knowing what is going on..

Yep I remember you told me about the inscription on your brother's headstone - and well said.

:)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfZuh4rGaiI

(if the link doesn't work, copy an paste it into your search thingy)

I will have to copy and paste the link, as it isn't working.

Gem
13-12-2015, 10:01 AM
[quote][quote=Gem][quote=naturesflow]

Yes at total clearing out, is exactly it, there is no other way if your on this path to end it... The fear of death, can hold us in ways that is extremely serious and incredibly debilitating even walking through the process of ending this. I think about my own process and see how important the whole preparation was leading to that point. I am talking twenty years of preparation to work through the deeper core ingrained "cant" let go stuff. I cant even imagine anyone not being prepared to hold this space and retain some measure of sanity, to get through. I was obviously prepared, but I felt I wasn't, but I know I was...
I think it's usually the case that when a clearing out gets started, people can't effectively do things anymore, as they are completely involved in it. In the West we see this sort of thing and label it as 'depression', I suppose. We don't handle these sorts of things very well in Western society. We just want to get people 'working' again. We're barbarians really. I'm imagining in the spiritual traditions in the East one could go to an ashram or a mountain retreat and just sit there, and the monks or whoever would know the gig and have the right kind of supports in place. It is pretty easy just to sit there if that's what's going on. In the West, 'they' won't let a person come to a stop. They try to get you moving again. That pressure makes it a lot worse than it needs to be. It exacerbates the situation. I think it has to happen, and you're inevitably brought to what feels like 'an ulitimate decision', which only has one noble or true choice and one wrong choice- and like a precipice, if you go (which is noble), you go all the way, and there are no steps - this letting go is all or nothing - kinda like death is all the way. AM I making sense? Sorry If I didn't answer you properly there - I went off on my own tangent.

Things do get better or not. This is it. I believe every interaction occurs to bring together something, which can be anything really..either way... Sometimes its not known or it is obvious, you can feel something moving between you and the other in some way of that connection, but its not really up to us to know what is being related for the other. We can feel and sense things in ourselves and in another, well I can,but I feel now most often that I am just one piece of many pieces of my own and another's puzzle coming together or coming apart... ultimately whatever is moving between opens up much to know or not know.. I find if I get out of my own way and just allow it to be, it flows where it will. I am finding I am getting better at letting all desire go and allowing things to just be and unfold as they will. I will always step up to what I can offer, but its not something I set up or set out to do..I wonder nowdays whether sometimes my natural intuitive response knows naturally when I am part of process or no need to be part. That seems to be the case more often than not. Like I don't have to try, my natural discernment kicks in without me even knowing what is going on..



:)



I will have to copy and paste the link, as it isn't working.

naturesflow
13-12-2015, 10:53 AM
[quote=naturesflow][quote][quote=Gem]
I think it's usually the case that when a clearing out gets started, people can't effectively do things anymore, as they are completely involved in it. In the West we see this sort of thing and label it as 'depression', I suppose. We don't handle these sorts of things very well in Western society. We just want to get people 'working' again. We're barbarians really. I'm imagining in the spiritual traditions in the East one could go to an ashram or a mountain retreat and just sit there, and the monks or whoever would know the gig and have the right kind of supports in place. It is pretty easy just to sit there if that's what's going on. In the West, 'they' won't let a person come to a stop. They try to get you moving again. That pressure makes it a lot worse than it needs to be. It exacerbates the situation. I think it has to happen, and you're inevitably brought to what feels like 'an ulitimate decision', which only has one noble or true choice and one wrong choice- and like a precipice, if you go (which is noble), you go all the way, and there are no steps - this letting go is all or nothing - kinda like death is all the way. AM I making sense? Sorry If I didn't answer you properly there - I went off on my own tangent.

Yes your making sense. And this I can relate too, in relation to letting go with support of someone who knew to stop me in my tracks and not let me run from myself, the old fight and flight response in fear can be a bit like running a marathon of your own making all over the shop..but ultimately when your no longer in control, things just move you and other things stop you naturally.


Your completely right about the whole western view of getting on with things. I notice a lot of people walking through this stuff, usually end up having to juggle it into the nature of reality as its playing out one with their own crisis, so its a big shakeup in lots of ways in that whole unfolding. I feel this is actually an important aspect of learning to balance as a whole in the overall journey of life as it is going to be in the long run anyway. I relate this in ways where people tend to open up and support in ways where the everyday person is like the missing link. So they begin to see themselves being something in the *real world* that they haven't seen of themselves before, so its like a "pay forward" naturally. If you get my drift.

As an example my nine year old son would step into this kind of altered state where he had all the answers for me to get back into balance. Here was a normal nine year old doing his normal stuff and suddenly out of the blue he gives me *wisdom* that hits home and fast to give me the eastern link your speaking of. This kind of random interjection occurred in so many ways, that sometimes I don't think people realized what they were doing themselves, but they were supporting in very wise ways..(often not even living this themselves yet lol ).:wink:

Silver
13-12-2015, 02:39 PM
[quote=naturesflow][quote][quote=Gem]
I think it's usually the case that when a clearing out gets started, people can't effectively do things anymore, as they are completely involved in it. In the West we see this sort of thing and label it as 'depression', I suppose. We don't handle these sorts of things very well in Western society. We just want to get people 'working' again. We're barbarians really. I'm imagining in the spiritual traditions in the East one could go to an ashram or a mountain retreat and just sit there, and the monks or whoever would know the gig and have the right kind of supports in place. It is pretty easy just to sit there if that's what's going on. In the West, 'they' won't let a person come to a stop. They try to get you moving again. That pressure makes it a lot worse than it needs to be. It exacerbates the situation. I think it has to happen, and you're inevitably brought to what feels like 'an ulitimate decision', which only has one noble or true choice and one wrong choice- and like a precipice, if you go (which is noble), you go all the way, and there are no steps - this letting go is all or nothing - kinda like death is all the way. AM I making sense? Sorry If I didn't answer you properly there - I went off on my own tangent.

Now this is just a wonderful piece, Gem. :hug3:

naturesflow
13-12-2015, 09:25 PM
I think sometimes Gem that sometimes in being completely involved in it all, what tends to happen is that often in that process you end up "landing" in support and help which kind of forces you to get out of your own way, which I suppose I was relating in my post to you. For me that process was actually as important to learn walking through to understand this in myself in this way as they way your describing with the monks. In some ways I was learning through process to work towards the process your describing. To stop and be present with what was occurring in every way. Even in the face of others in their own offloading. That kind of being "overly" involved changes with you and your own involvement with yourself for others. Less feels best. Allowing more, allows more of others to support as I feel the world naturally offers in so many ways of support, just sometimes we limit ourselves. I think letting go for me through that process was showing me this also, through many, not just one, but certainly a greater range of different support that was linking me into sameness in myself..

Gem
14-12-2015, 09:35 AM
I think sometimes Gem that sometimes in being completely involved in it all, what tends to happen is that often in that process you end up "landing" in support and help which kind of forces you to get out of your own way, which I suppose I was relating in my post to you. For me that process was actually as important to learn walking through to understand this in myself in this way as they way your describing with the monks. In some ways I was learning through process to work towards the process your describing. To stop and be present with what was occurring in every way. Even in the face of others in their own offloading. That kind of being "overly" involved changes with you and your own involvement with yourself for others. Less feels best. Allowing more, allows more of others to support as I feel the world naturally offers in so many ways of support, just sometimes we limit ourselves. I think letting go for me through that process was showing me this also, through many, not just one, but certainly a greater range of different support that was linking me into sameness in myself..
Right, 'in your own way'. That resistance, and ultimately, being too scared in that ultimate 'choice', to let go. There comes a time when you don't get a choice; when you die you have to go. I guess there's a false part of ones self that imagines that choice, and exercises control so it appears as though it's chosen, but in the end, it is actually, too scared. I think I'm getting to a real thing here. I hope it sounds critical. I have tired of spiritual platitudes and niceties and I feel crucial inside abour crucial matters. I think the dark night subject is good for cutting to the core of matters. When you use words like 'forces' I hear something important. I don't even want to make the impression that monks and angels will make everything ok, and prefer to express the nature of something utterly alone - you have to be that isolated psychologically, or you're never desperate enough to go through and never scared enough not to. In my meditation thread I took a similar line in saying if you have the crutch to lean on you are never completely compelled to really look. In there alone having no crutch to fall back on, you are forced to get real. I'm just trying to bring it to that level, so we feel something imperative, I think that's how 'spiritual' should be. It should feel like I fell of a bridge and I don't know if the water rushing toward me is deep or shallow. I don't know if you understand, but a person is awake and present is a situation like that. That's how to be present, I think, when this next moment or 2 is critical. It's a different kind of 'involvement' - it means I'm not judging anything right now and I'm not remembering my moral values or trying to project anything, because I'm so immediate, all there is, is this happening. We'll find out pretty soon if the water is deep, but there's nothing we can do about this fall. There's no limit right now because there is nothing that can be done about it right now - it's a journey and it'll sort itself out one way or the other, but at least it has captured the fullness of attention, and is a highly conscious journey.

naturesflow
14-12-2015, 11:22 AM
[QUOTE=Gem]Right, 'in your own way'. That resistance, and ultimately, being too scared in that ultimate 'choice', to let go. There comes a time when you don't get a choice; when you die you have to go.

Yes, this is true. Not knowing either way, whether you live or die in that choice calling you to just let go, without knowing, opens up that feeling of being so scared of dying in that not knowing, that you have to feel that, the not knowing itself, because it is those feelings where you are living in ways where you think you control death, and so you plant yourself in ways of this feeling and it can be very debilitating controlling your reality in this way.. Well I can see that now in myself.

I guess there's a false part of ones self that imagines that choice, and exercises control so it appears as though it's chosen, but in the end, it is actually, too scared.

Yes this too.

I think I'm getting to a real thing here. I hope it sounds critical. I have tired of spiritual platitudes and niceties and I feel crucial inside abour crucial matters. I think the dark night subject is good for cutting to the core of matters. When you use words like 'forces' I hear something important. I don't even want to make the impression that monks and angels will make everything ok, and prefer to express the nature of something utterly alone - you have to be that isolated psychologically, or you're never desperate enough to go through and never scared enough not to.


When I say support, I don't mean its all made ok. In my process the support was only giving me a glimmer of light to move through to the next level. Meaning I had to walk it all through myself, I couldn't escape myself. In fact the force in some ways contributed to pushing me onward and through as well. So even as I call this force support, that support was not allowing me to stay locked in. I was pushed hard, pushed to my limits.It was scary, tough and extremely crazy. I call this support even so, on this side of it. Most who haven't processed this as I did, would see this as harsh discipline and shock treatment. But from here where I am now, I see I had to endure this, because I was holding myself tight. The other support only came in, when I moved myself through those shoves. The support was timely after the work was done by me..This showed me that for every step I had to endure, the opening of support came in ways where it almost was like, well you made it through this far, you can take a breather for now, but it hasn't ended and it is not over yet....People then, in synch who had bits of my own puzzle, and brought things to light, that I was able to use as hope and guidance, make sense, develop understanding of myself walking through.. I still had to walk it through, it didn't change the experience in anyway where I could skip the process, or have things go away. Not at all. It wasn't that kind of support. It was helping me to make sense in a number of ways, but I see that for myself, I had deep control issues around death and suffering, the fear of death was all consuming in so many ways. The support opened up spaces that I couldn't find in myself while walking through, but those spaces did give me a piece of something to move to the next level in myself where again, I had to dig deep and face myself once more..

In my meditation thread I took a similar line in saying if you have the crutch to lean on you are never completely compelled to really look. In there alone having no crutch to fall back on, you are forced to get real.

Yes I get what you saying and see your point. Its valid and important to this whole unfolding as you describe it. The feelings of having to feel totally alone, abandoned, afraid, terrified, are not helped by another in that support. As an example, one day I was losing it, a friend arrived, she said, I feel compelled to take you outside bare feet and hold your hands. So I did this with her as I couldn't see a way out of that marker where I had arrived. She said blow it out hard all of it. And I did. It gave me instant relief. Of course the next level hit me in the next few days and I opened up more in myself. I had to walk that through, there is no escape even with support, I suppose I need to make this more real in how I am describing this and I have in this post.

I'm just trying to bring it to that level, so we feel something imperative, I think that's how 'spiritual' should be. It should feel like I fell of a bridge and I don't know if the water rushing toward me is deep or shallow. I don't know if you understand, but a person is awake and present is a situation like that.


Yes.

That's how to be present, I think, when this next moment or 2 is critical. It's a different kind of 'involvement' - it means I'm not judging anything right now and I'm not remembering my moral values or trying to project anything, because I'm so immediate, all there is, is this happening. We'll find out pretty soon if the water is deep, but there's nothing we can do about this fall. There's no limit right now because there is nothing that can be done about it right now - it's a journey and it'll sort itself out one way or the other, but at least it has captured the fullness of attention, and is a highly conscious journey.

Yes again.

Mr Interesting
14-12-2015, 07:49 PM
It seemed somehow quite likely, at the onset, that such a question as what are your thoughts on thoughts... thoughts please, might become somewhat thoughtful.

Now I'm here and whilst I peruse the thoughts on thoughts I think ' I can't be bothered thinking' and I often can't. It's just become too much like hard work. Even at this full stop yet to come I'll have ended this particular bit then sit here kinda wondering where I might go.

About three years ago I was in a school situation and we were talking about how ideas became ideas worth fulfilling and I kinda had to stand for 'Nah, I don't have ideas, I have visions and I either do them or I don't... end of story' but then the teacher put me in this position whereby I became an advocate of the wild and the brilliant but was I then going to kill myself when the visions stopped.... and then didn't really give me a chance to answer, but I didn't mind, because I knew the answer and that was enough for me.

And I think what it kinda came down to was that even whilst the teacher kinda denied my relationship to ideas and visions etc what was somehow important was that the other pupils didn't get an answer according to their sensibilities but had to trust the mystery as it were. Like if I was to win against the teacher then they could file it away as an understood principle but having my lose, as it were, but them still holding it in that quiet part of them a sense that I didn't need to fight and alongside an undeniable efficiency then somehow the sense of wonder would grow, or not, at it's own pace.

Seems that's enough.

joyfirst
16-12-2015, 11:53 PM
I think thoughts are coming from our subconsciously stored beliefs about the world. So even if they come from nowhere, they are probably came from that thought bank in our subconscious mind.
While positive thoughts feel good, pure experience without thoughts actually feels the best, and from my experience helps with wanted manifesting the most. Even more than intellectual gratitude.

Light Seeker
17-12-2015, 12:23 AM
Descartes , the famous french philosopher had the notion that " I think therefore I am "

However the often hidden truth behind that axiom is the circumstance under which the quote was made.

It was a New Years Eve Party and the Buffet was to be served after midnight... One of the Guests , feeling a bit peckish grabbed a Sausage Roll from the Buffet and Descartes piped up . " I think theyre for One a.m."... Not a lot of people know that and I am glad I was able to clear that up for you.....

I digress...as ever , primarily because it was a very complex question in the first place.

Shivani Devi
17-12-2015, 08:57 AM
Do you think that thoughts are created by you?

Do you think thoughts are external independent things that come into your mind?

Are you aware of the thoughts in your head as you go about your day?

In what dimension do you think thoughts exist?

What are your thoughts on thoughts?
I 'think' that thoughts originate from both within and without our own minds and from a variety of different sources, although most remain self-created (or at least the 'interpretation' of the thought is self-created through rational analysis of that original thought).

I used to think all my thoughts were created by me, until I discovered how other 'entities' could influence my own thoughts through modulated speech and after ages of struggling, thinking I was 'imagining it' and 'creating my own thoughts/thoughtforms' I totally and 100% knew I was not and totally submitted/surrendered to this realisation.

Mostly, thoughts originate in the subconscious mind due to past experience and cognitive biases and we mentally entertain them as each situation permits. They are internal, but have relevance in the external world, as Lord Buddha pointed out.

As for everything else, I take the Patanjali approach - thoughts arise in the 'manas sharira' (mental body), as impressions of vritti upon chitta, or 'whirlpools/eddies' upon consciousness, leading to the formation of repetitive thought patterns and mental habits called samskaras.