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Mr Interesting
02-12-2015, 08:17 PM
I did a stall at a festival where I had a selection of stuff I make and I've come to realise that my job therein isn't having the stuff sell, though i did sell one thing, so much as it is about offering an inspirational alternative, an almost if I can do all this and still exist to have hardly any of it sell and be so obviously un-affected by the need of having money then surely you can do it too.

And now I've been told that the festival organiser is going to give me money because I didn't sell anything which in a way turns me into a performer which is kinda interesting because I'd kinda figured out that was what I am anyways. Yes I make stuff and most of it just sits there doing nothing except being what it is but still it seems to dance and sing in other peoples heads, and hearts, when they see it... so yes, I kinda figured out it was more about that and now it seems the world is kinda acknowledging that.

This then makes me wonder about all those others I know who seem intent on changing the world but, and this is what has occurred to me, that they seem to have no real idea of what the world is. So then this is the question I wonder might be in need of being asked, or several of them actually, and it is that is the need to change the world simply because one doesn't actually know what it is and so if it becomes what one wants will it then be understood?

And excuse me for asking questions backwards which is to say that increasingly over the years the world I inhabit hasn't necessarily become the world I want but that it has become increasingly the world I think it might be. It's almost as if the world itself wants to be something and it's my job not to understand what that is but to simply do the work I can to let that go where it will and that increasingly that seems to give me access to a world I didn't actually know I wanted but when it appears it seems somehow obvious that it was what I wanted.

So I did sell one artwork and it was number one of eight which turned out to be about numerology, which was surprising because I don't really know much about numerology but I do have an old friend who loves it and his simple way of utilising it seemed to be within these artworks, and this number one, the self, sold to a man and his wife who seemed to be yearning for what it said. And I said a little, I'm bad because I just make things up, but what I made up just made his smile so much bigger... and was it his own heart speaking and I couldn't help but speak for it?

And funnily enough I told another friend this story and he commented how one of his friends had heard me speaking thus and said I could be a cult leader as I had that mix of pervasiveness and charisma which has people hanging onto my words... when I can be bothered, because it has to be fun words, fun stuff coming through... otherwise it's just a kind of self harm.

These people then left happy and they got all my details because I told them they had to come and see me. They may or they may not but in the moment I saw all their dreams they didn't know they had because they were driving them deeper than they could see except I could and in a sense offered some blood letting. Oh, that's a bit macabre... but it does feel like that. That what we are and will be is coursing through us trying to make us hear and without outlet it keeps going round and round and get's tired and agitated that we don't listen so the pressure must come off, a cut made so the dreams can flow, the earth blood can splash on itself and remember... it is what it is.

But I digress, always actually, meander aimlessly and watch and then if I have a little time here and there then actually do some work... I'm well lazy too... and lucky it seems.

Maybe that's it though. Just giving oneself the freedom to let the world be what it wants to be and watching it be that. That in amongst it being what ever it will be that we each have a place to tweak it slightly, have our own talent's be that world being what it wants to be. I really don't know or understand much at all but what I do is that the world itself understands me alot better who I might be than I ever could... or something like that.

Indeed, less about answers and more about the right questions, not solutions either so much as refining the nature of the problem... because it might not even be a problem.

Gem
03-12-2015, 10:07 AM
You know the gypsy curse, "may you get what you want"? I don't quite understand it, but the very essence of wanting is a painful one, and it must hurt much more when you get it - I don't know for sure, because I don't get what I want - I'm lucky that way.

sky
03-12-2015, 10:43 AM
[QUOTE=Gem]You know the gypsy curse, "may you get what you want"? I don't quite understand it, but the very essence of wanting is a painful one, and it must hurt much more when you get it - I don't know for sure, because I don't get what I want - I'm lucky that way.[/QUOTE


It's also a Chinese curse. It means to be careful of what you wish for, if there good kindly wishes there is no curse but if you wish harm on others then beware, what goes around comes around and your wish might bite you in the backside :icon_eek:

Gem
04-12-2015, 01:16 AM
[quote=Gem]You know the gypsy curse, "may you get what you want"? I don't quite understand it, but the very essence of wanting is a painful one, and it must hurt much more when you get it - I don't know for sure, because I don't get what I want - I'm lucky that way.[/QUOTE


It's also a Chinese curse. It means to be careful of what you wish for, if there good kindly wishes there is no curse but if you wish harm on others then beware, what goes around comes around and your wish might bite you in the backside :icon_eek:
I think it means much more, because your interpretation is very simplistic, and the whole question of want is one which I don't think is ever entirely innocent, but there are degrees of want, desire and abject greed. We already know that real desire and greed are futile and unhappy conditions, because they are a life unto themselves, and are only momentarily satisified by acquisition, whereupon acquiring, more is wanted.

Putting this back in artistic context, I ask, does a painter want paintings or do they just want to paint? The artifact of the painting is the object of desire, but the process of painting is satisfaction beyond what the final artifact bring. Indeed. Like the listening of a song is in itself, the song, and once the song ends - no song - and one may want to hear it, but the song can not be acquired.

This then comes to the spiritual where the experience can be had, and can be kept as memory, but the desire is for the memory acquired, the acquired object, in the absence of momentary appreciation for the actual experienced working of the art.

The curse then is, may you get what you want, because that desire is agony, and once you acquire the object of desire, you want more - the desire expands to greed - and you suffer so much more.

sky
04-12-2015, 07:41 AM
[quote=sky123]
I think it means much more, because your interpretation is very simplistic, and the whole question of want is one whikch I don't think is ever entirely innocent, but there are degrees of want, desire and abject greed. We already know that real desire and greed are futile and unhappy conditions, because they are a life unto themselves, and are only momentarily satisified by acquisition, whereupon acquiring, more is wanted.

Putting this back in artistic context, I ask, does a painter want paintings or do they just want to paint? The artifact of the painting is the object of desire, but the process of painting is satisfaction beyond what the final artifact bring. Indeed. Like the listening of a song is iin itself, the song, and once the song ends - no song - and one may want to hear it, but the song can not be acquired.

This then comes to the spiritual where the experience can be had, and can be kept as memory, but the desire is for the memory acquired, the acquired object, in the absence of momentary appreciation for the actual experienced working of the art.

The curse then is, may you get what you want, because that desire is agony, and once you acquire the object of desire, you want more - the desire expands to greed - and you suffer so much more.


Proverbs are always simplistic.

Mr Interesting
04-12-2015, 06:00 PM
Interesting that the use of want was examined. It is summer now, pretty much, and all my old shorts needed repairing but initially I got material out and made a pair of new shorts then put them on and started repairing all my old shorts.

I'd found some shorts about 8 0r 9 years ago and bought two pairs and they lasted really well, the fabric was tough and the design was good as it allowed me all the movement I needed and so when they were falling apart I repaired one set whilst the other was taken apart for a pattern and then I made my own shorts from that pattern. This new generation worked well with some heavier pairs for when I did outright heavy work and then some lighter fabric ones for just general moving about and now years later I can review their uses and possibly design something this time around which could be harder wearing for longer yet still be reasonable light and flexible.

This particular uniform, of sorts, has been developing for years and I enjoyed once going to see an old, old friend, who happens to run a fashion magazine, and he remarked of my mountain climbing ensemble... and he was right on the mark and it was good, felt good, that what he saw was something I hadn't but was kinda obvious once it was said.

Then funnily enough last night I dreamed of winning lotto but I kept it quiet then was in a tool shop being shown a catalogue by another very old friend and the page was on a very good torque wrench and this in sense aligns with what I see as my sense of want. I don't want a good torque wrench but if indeed I do actually get to all these old engines which seem to be accumulating then a good torque wrench might be handy and I'm not about to dismiss moving a certain way in life which has already become fairly obvious and being prepared for what may come along is the want that aligns with what might be wanted of me.

And that too is fairly interesting to me as I've been wondering lately whether I might forgo the mechanical way I've been contemplating and going straight into making boats which in and of itself is quite surprising but it makes a certain sense because I visited an Island recently and the people there really took to me in a way I understand but if I was to arrive on that Island to live and be of use then it felt right that I would arrive in a boat under my own steam.

I've always known the miraculousness of machines and things in that you take them apart and put them back together and that within that they somehow go better than when they were a solid block you could do nothing but apply hope and trust to. This idea that something working and being used could explode and cause harm is your own responsibility and is working because one took the time to be responsible has always enamoured me to things in the sense that I can surpass the concreteness of things and be with the spirit of things.

naturesflow
04-12-2015, 09:43 PM
that's the spirit!!..

naturesflow
04-12-2015, 09:46 PM
[QUOTE=Gem]You know the gypsy curse, "may you get what you want"? I don't quite understand it, but the very essence of wanting is a painful one, and it must hurt much more when you get it - I don't know for sure, because I don't get what I want - I'm lucky that way.[/QUOTE


It's also a Chinese curse. It means to be careful of what you wish for, if there good kindly wishes there is no curse but if you wish harm on others then beware, what goes around comes around and your wish might bite you in the backside :icon_eek:

And often even as others create things to be things, you are a creator too, so the whole around thing is you anyway creating it..

Where I am going with this I have no idea, but something said to share it anyway..:wink:

Gem
05-12-2015, 08:40 AM
[quote=Gem]


Proverbs are always simplistic.

You're saying anything that is a response to anything I said.

Greenslade
05-12-2015, 09:23 AM
Indeed, less about answers and more about the right questions, not solutions either so much as refining the nature of the problem... because it might not even be a problem.You are not the question looking for the answer, you are the answer looking for the question.

I watching a Basahar YouTube a while ago and someone asked how 'little people' can change the world. Bashar replied "You are... oh how shall we put it... infectious. That you even hold it in your heart means it serves as an example for others to follow, if they so wish." You heart sends out a 360-degree spherical electromagnetic bubble every time it beats that others pick up, we're all antennae sending and receiving information by way of those pulses.

What we want isn't always what we need and we always get what we need.

Gem
20-12-2015, 05:27 AM
[quote=sky123]

And often even as others create things to be things, you are a creator too, so the whole around thing is you anyway creating it..

Where I am going with this I have no idea, but something said to share it anyway..:wink:
I see it is there is creation but you can't have it. That doesn't mean you can have the kind of life you want, because you can, but there are obstacles to that in terms of self worth and deservement. There isn't actually anyone there premeditating and choosing - it's more like like the instantaneous appearance of the perception. All I'm saying is, take care of the obstacles, which is, become aware of and understand them, and it all takes care of itself. The desire for what isn't here as opposed to the appreciation for what is here, for example. Let it all become selfless, non possessive, freed form desire - let it be as it is, without involving what 'you want', because 'this' must necessarily be 'the creation' already - as entailing the obstacles and what have you - not something other.

naturesflow
20-12-2015, 07:14 AM
[quote=naturesflow]
I see it is there is creation but you can't have it. That doesn't mean you can have the kind of life you want, because you can, but there are obstacles to that in terms of self worth and deservement. There isn't actually anyone there premeditating and choosing - it's more like like the instantaneous appearance of the perception. All I'm saying is, take care of the obstacles, which is, become aware of and understand them, and it all takes care of itself. The desire for what isn't here as opposed to the appreciation for what is here, for example. Let it all become selfless, non possessive, freed form desire - let it be as it is, without involving what 'you want', because 'this' must necessarily be 'the creation' already - as entailing the obstacles and what have you - not something other.


I am not sure why my words were quoted as sky's words..but anyway.

I would agree with you the care is a key factor in those obstacles. Because ultimately when you consider what is in them as a whole, your creating through what you are including. So for me even as I am or another is as they are, of course those obstacles will feel according to that awareness and understanding so the creation will reveal itself according to those things. Always opening up the nature of the unknown, known and potential of both. I think what you say about appreciation comes back to consideration of a more whole inclusion in it all one with your wants. The want in this way becomes only a directive a place your seeking that is already there in it all, not necessarily the outcome of your making or creation. The balance within it will flow in the way it requires.So even as we create and include or not include the outcome will become a process of itself unattached yet streaming as a creative flow of the whole into being of itself.

Or something like that.

naturesflow
20-12-2015, 07:14 AM
And now your words are quoted as mine ...haaha

Gem
20-12-2015, 08:12 AM
I am not sure why my words were quoted as sky's words..but anyway.

I would agree with you the care is a key factor in those obstacles. Because ultimately when you consider what is in them as a whole, your creating through what you are including. So for me even as I am or another is as they are, of course those obstacles will feel according to that awareness and understanding so the creation will reveal itself according to those things. Always opening up the nature of the unknown, known and potential of both. I think what you say about appreciation comes back to consideration of a more whole inclusion in it all one with your wants. The want in this way becomes only a directive a place your seeking that is already there in it all, not necessarily the outcome of your making or creation. The balance within it will flow in the way it requires.So even as we create and include or not include the outcome will become a process of itself unattached yet streaming as a creative flow of the whole into being of itself.

Or something like that.

I'm trying to speak about 'the life you want' without including desire. I'm not sure how to word it, but I'll start by saying, desire is an obstacle. There isn't a purity to desire because it is one side of a coin, the other side being aversion. When you stop and choose, within that hesitation, there is a separation. The separation between what is wanted and not wanted, the separation between the past and the future, the separation between you and yours. My question is, what is really happening here? What is being 'created' within this hesitation? Are you paying attention to what is actually being generated at the moment? I mean those questions rhetorically. Surely, this current generating, or creating, is the the determinant of the quality of life around you.

naturesflow
20-12-2015, 08:55 AM
I'm trying to speak about 'the life you want' without including desire. I'm not sure how to word it, but I'll start by saying, desire is an obstacle. There isn't a purity to desire because it is one side of a coin, the other side being aversion. When you stop and choose, within that hesitation, there is a separation. The separation between what is wanted and not wanted, the separation between the past and the future, the separation between you and yours. My question is, what is really happening here? What is being 'created' within this hesitation? Are you paying attention to what is actually being generated at the moment? I mean those questions rhetorically. Surely, this current generating, or creating, is the the determinant of the quality of life around you.

So what is the difference between want and desire then?

This might come back to what you see in desire itself as to what I see as desire. You see desire filled with something that meets obstacles, where as I see desire as more the directive that leads to what you want, and in that want your receive what comes within the whole anyway...Meaning the process takes longer, but maybe that is deepening ones experience of their journey and life and realization?

In other words even if you desire, and the obstacles appear, you are seeking to use that process on some level to eliminate and open to the flow of living the life you want? Even as you want or desire it will lead you to the full picture of those things even in your choice, one way or another wont it?

In some ways your pointing towards being fully present with it all in your seeking of the life you want. So to me that simply says you allow your process to unfold naturally as things are. Where as desire and want leads you through a process more often than not that, opens up the fullness of that creation.

And yes your correct I would say what is right now happening is what your creating both within and outside of you..For example in me right now everything is heightened and open, so I am seeing the old me,old fears, new spaces reflecting my totality of being, new awareness, I am experiencing spaces that I need to end and be aware of more consciously in that closing off and letting go, I am seeing my past present and future play out before me. I am immersed in it all aware. As for how I observe and interact with it, I am really observing it, participating in life as normal and allowing it all to bring itself into being. I am simply stepping into it as it requires me too, letting go where I have to. As for my wanting space, I am also aware walking through this, I can want all I like, but ultimately what is unfolding before me is a whole host of things, seen and unseen, so it wil be what it will be..in part knowing, in part unknown.

But even as I let the wants and desire go, I know its happening as I am. So be it.

naturesflow
20-12-2015, 09:06 AM
I am aware though of my feelings within that want and desire when it arises, I know for me its anticipation and sometimes impatience because being immersed in it all, the old me would have felt disconnected and hence no way out, where as now in being aware of myself more as a totality of being, I feel the want arises when the old me wants to escape what is, but I am not escaping it, because how can I?

Gem
20-12-2015, 11:04 AM
So what is the difference between want and desire then?
That's the hard one to explain, but it comes down the choice. If you are aware that you are choosing, that means the motion of action must have hesitated, but if your are just, like, insight and act in one movement, you never get the chance to desire some future object. Like a surfer on a big wave, there is a lot going on, but there's no time for hesitation - the wave moves and surfer acts immediately without stopping to think about it. The big wave surfer understands that he can't resist the wave, and one way or another he has to go with it. His desires are no concern of the wave's, so he doesn't get any choice, yet, he does have complete mindful control of what he does from one moment to the next. That surfer is only concerned with what he's doing right now, and just does it - and he wants to do it, otherwise he could jump off, but that desire for what he might do in a few seconds from now doesn't ever occur, because he's too involved with what he's actually doing.

This might come back to what you see in desire itself as to what I see as desire. You see desire filled with something that meets obstacles, where as I see desire as more the directive that leads to what you want, and in that want your receive what comes within the whole anyway...Meaning the process takes longer, but maybe that is deepening ones experience of their journey and life and realization?
No it sounds like we see desire in the same way - a craving for a future object/experience of some kind. Then our action becomes a means to an end, a secondary thing. Could we, right now, say, I'm just going to do what I want? One example. I go to uni because I want to study. Not because I want to be a social worker, but because I want to be a student. Well, I am a student. I can say I ever once desired that. Before I was a student I was doing something else. I thought to myself, I will be a student next year, I immediately found out how to apply, and did, I got and email about enrollment, I enrolled, starting day came around, I went. Now it's holidays, hooray. One day classes will start, I'll go because I want, but I don't desire it at all.

In other words even if you desire, and the obstacles appear, you are seeking to use that process on some level to eliminate and open to the flow of living the life you want? Even as you want or desire it will lead you to the full picture of those things even in your choice, one way or another wont it?
OK, the obstacles, that's the main thing really, because people are living in a 'don't want' state. But this is really about issues of self worth, what I deserve and so on, so we have to understand what we are generating right now in this moment. No one want misery, but we still generate it for ourselves, but why? Is it because we're not aware of how we generate it? Are we just unconscious of ourselves generating it? There must be some reason or other for why I generate misery instead of happiness, but happiness can't co-exist with desire because desire is that perversely twisted love that has a bedfellow called hatred. This is really at the centre of misery - the bane of all humanity.

In some ways your pointing towards being fully present with it all in your seeking of the life you want. So to me that simply says you allow your process to unfold naturally as things are. Where as desire and want leads you through a process more often than not that, opens up the fullness of that creation.
Indeed. I'm saying forget the future and it's objects of desire, just for 20 seconds or so, and pay attention to what is being generated right now. Is it anger, love, frustration, dissapointment, happiness - or what? What 'is it like' to be you right now? (Rhetorical questions). Perhaps this does include some thoughts about the future house and so on, but is that something you are happy doing, or is that something "I must have" that causes some small agitation? Does in bring up hopelessness or anxiety? Does it bring up a 'looking forward to my future' feeling? What's going on now? That's my rhetorical question. hahaha.

And yes your correct I would say what is right now happening is what your creating both within and outside of you..For example in me right now everything is heightened and open, so I am seeing the old me,old fears, new spaces reflecting my totality of being, new awareness, I am experiencing spaces that I need to end and be aware of more consciously in that closing off and letting go, I am seeing my past present and future play out before me. I am immersed in it all aware. As for how I observe and interact with it, I am really observing it, participating in life as normal and allowing it all to bring itself into being. I am simply stepping into it as it requires me too, letting go where I have to. As for my wanting space, I am also aware walking through this, I can want all I like, but ultimately what is unfolding before me is a whole host of things, seen and unseen, so it wil be what it will be..in part knowing, in part unknown.

But even as I let the wants and desire go, I know its happening as I am. So be it.
Great, you know whats happening now. I know what's happening now. Can I then say that I just look and see whats going on now? If I just look and see, how can I then say I'm generating it? This is hard because the is no before and after involved. I perceive it an generate it at once. First I was preoccupied with a desired future object and I wasn't conscious of what I was generating now, I was somewhat aware of it, but not paying attention. When I pay attention I become conscious and I both perceive and generate in full awareness. That's enough. It doesn't have to be 'fixed'. It's already created anyway, so there's nothig that can be done. I then perceive some tension and it drops away, I notice I'm holding something and I let it go - Then I'm just riding the wave and I'm not occupied with the future goals. If I think of my destination now, I act right now, in one full movement where this is my life happening - now I'll turn.

Gem
20-12-2015, 11:31 AM
I am aware though of my feelings within that want and desire when it arises, I know for me its anticipation and sometimes impatience because being immersed in it all, the old me would have felt disconnected and hence no way out, where as now in being aware of myself more as a totality of being, I feel the want arises when the old me wants to escape what is, but I am not escaping it, because how can I?
Ok, that sounds like a very acute self awareness. See there's a want without any attachment, which is like a fantasy maybe but it doesn't need to to happen, you're happy with it or without it and thinking of it is a happy place. Then there's the other thing, desire, so you're impatient for it, if it doesn't happen you feel somewhat upset or disappointed. At uni I just did my papers and exams and I didn't care about any grades. I did the best I could because there is no point being half baked. I didn't even check my grades after they came out. I was never like 'what did I get'. I couldn't be disappointed because I had no investment in what the teacher gave me. It's not about what I get. As it turned out, I got great grades, so good, I chuffed... but really, who cares? I only care about an assignment while I'm doing the assignment. Once I hand it in, it's gone. In the past.


That's right, there is no escape. If you 'want to escape' there is the aversion, which is also the desire to escape. That's the trap, innit.

naturesflow
20-12-2015, 12:45 PM
That's the hard one to explain, but it comes down the choice. If you are aware that you are choosing, that means the motion of action must have hesitated, but if your are just, like, insight and act in one movement, you never get the chance to desire some future object. Like a surfer on a big wave, there is a lot going on, but there's no time for hesitation - the wave moves and surfer acts immediately without stopping to think about it.

Got it!

The big wave surfer understands that he can't resist the wave, and one way or another he has to go with it. His desires are no concern of the wave's, so he doesn't get any choice, yet, he does have complete mindful control of what he does from one moment to the next. That surfer is only concerned with what he's doing right now, and just does it - and he wants to do it, otherwise he could jump off, but that desire for what he might do in a few seconds from now doesn't ever occur, because he's too involved with what he's actually doing.

Yes


No it sounds like we see desire in the same way - a craving for a future object/experience of some kind. Then our action becomes a means to an end, a secondary thing. Could we, right now, say, I'm just going to do what I want? One example. I go to uni because I want to study. Not because I want to be a social worker, but because I want to be a student. Well, I am a student. I can say I ever once desired that. Before I was a student I was doing something else. I thought to myself, I will be a student next year, I immediately found out how to apply, and did, I got and email about enrollment, I enrolled, starting day came around, I went. Now it's holidays, hooray. One day classes will start, I'll go because I want, but I don't desire it at all.

So in some ways this shows your moving with intention of a whole host in you aware and allowing yourself to just be where you are in the moment. That makes sense. I can relate. Even as I might revisit wanting, I do notice that what is leading me now is this very thing. The difference of seeing how desire in wanting in the past was leading me. It set me up for disappointment and a whole host of others things, obstacles as you mentioned. I learned the hard way. Having let go of course now I can still think I want, but my awareness is stronger and leads me through and reminds me to stay present with what is. So in this way my balance of awareness in feeling is stronger than old feelings in desire and wants, which is a good thing I suppose..


OK, the obstacles, that's the main thing really, because people are living in a 'don't want' state. But this is really about issues of self worth, what I deserve and so on, so we have to understand what we are generating right now in this moment. No one want misery, but we still generate it for ourselves, but why? Is it because we're not aware of how we generate it? Are we just unconscious of ourselves generating it? There must be some reason or other for why I generate misery instead of happiness, but happiness can't co-exist with desire because desire is that perversely twisted love that has a bedfellow called hatred. This is really at the centre of misery - the bane of all humanity.

Yes it relates to a deeper unified feeling of self worth. I was talking to a lovely Greek lady today about this very thing. She is very caring and giving yet she told me when she needs support, no one is there for her. This shows me on some level this very thing. She feels worthy to give and create in this way, but her self worth doesn't allow for her to receive in the way she wants.
I believe it is most likely unconscious, unseen, unknown, but in saying this, our experience often leads us to where we need to be in the nature of our own balance, one way or another I think? Perhaps in some way we are choosing through cycles that are as they need to be? You cant make something known until someone is ready to see? The other aspect is really what I am aware of in myself and my own experience, understanding the nature of what is leading us predominantly through those cycles. Some pain bodies are extremely imbalanced and creating a lot of misery and pain simply out of the need to stay alive and just survive. A greater degree of pain and fear than someone who may have a balance of fear and love, so creates a life less extreme perhaps?

Yes in the awareness of desire and its contents it can be a very twisted and skewed view and not even realize what is harboured within itself sadly. Desire has such a force of energy behind it, it can be very destructive and so deeply attached, causing much misery.


Indeed. I'm saying forget the future and it's objects of desire, just for 20 seconds or so, and pay attention to what is being generated right now. Is it anger, love, frustration, dissapointment, happiness - or what? What 'is it like' to be you right now? (Rhetorical questions). Perhaps this does include some thoughts about the future house and so on, but is that something you are happy doing, or is that something "I must have" that causes some small agitation? Does in bring up hopelessness or anxiety? Does it bring up a 'looking forward to my future' feeling? What's going on now? That's my rhetorical question. hahaha.

Yes for sure, I call this my check into me point. Or step back and breathe point, because ultimately if I am not in my own way when I am seeking something, I am more clearly seeing the greater view. Looking more directly at what is in that greater view. In this way I realize my want, becomes not just my own want, but a more inclusive direction calling me to walk through. All those questions you apply to this are really wise ones any one can ask..




Great, you know whats happening now. I know what's happening now. Can I then say that I just look and see whats going on now? If I just look and see, how can I then say I'm generating it? This is hard because the is no before and after involved. I perceive it an generate it at once. First I was preoccupied with a desired future object and I wasn't conscious of what I was generating now, I was somewhat aware of it, but not paying attention. When I pay attention I become conscious and I both perceive and generate in full awareness. That's enough. It doesn't have to be 'fixed'. It's already created anyway, so there's nothig that can be done. I then perceive some tension and it drops away, I notice I'm holding something and I let it go - Then I'm just riding the wave and I'm not occupied with the future goals. If I think of my destination now, I act right now, in one full movement where this is my life happening - now I'll turn.[/QUOTE]

In some ways I view this as my own process, as in I am flowing through it all aware but its working in the way your showing here. The breakdown is really just my own awareness building this greater picture before moving into this in such a way I wont have to be immersed in it all, as past and future knowing so separated.. but more fully present with it as it just is. I tend to shift in this way more often than not and this shift is quite a big one so it makes sense the old me is being shown how its all moving this time, not being caught up in a darker night of the soul as it was last time.. If that makes sense. Ride it all and not really see the break down. It seems that my processing does break it down for a reason and purpose so I do ride it through aware of where its taking me in this way of one big flowing wave ride.. Omg how scary is that thought. ..lol

naturesflow
20-12-2015, 01:19 PM
[QUOTE=Gem]Ok, that sounds like a very acute self awareness. See there's a want without any attachment, which is like a fantasy maybe but it doesn't need to to happen, you're happy with it or without it and thinking of it is a happy place. Then there's the other thing, desire, so you're impatient for it, if it doesn't happen you feel somewhat upset or disappointed. At uni I just did my papers and exams and I didn't care about any grades. I did the best I could because there is no point being half baked. I didn't even check my grades after they came out. I was never like 'what did I get'. I couldn't be disappointed because I had no investment in what the teacher gave me. It's not about what I get. As it turned out, I got great grades, so good, I chuffed... but really, who cares? I only care about an assignment while I'm doing the assignment. Once I hand it in, it's gone. In the past.

Yes for me I want without any attachment and no fear of losing if it falls either way. So I think not holding anything in this way, makes it a more open and clear expression of myself as I am now. And yes it feels peaceful and happy in this wanting, its not a strain or need that I am desperate about. I see, I seek change basically, I step into it and then I let go. So in this way I am allowing the process to be what it will be, not necessarily what I want. The want only opens my awareness to step into the space calling me to step up for something that opens my attention in the moment. So naturally I ride that wave and just immerse and let go. I am unattached to outcome, desire and even the want. Glad you received good grades, I imagine you put in a lot of dedication and time to your work all the same.

In some ways I can see this as your saying, its just movement and riding it all now. When you let go of what your seeking or needing, it becomes what you are seeking without seeking it, effortlessly.


That's right, there is no escape. If you 'want to escape' there is the aversion, which is also the desire to escape. That's the trap, innit.

Yes.

Mr Interesting
20-12-2015, 07:28 PM
I like possibility strands but I'll have to go back to the beginning to see how I started because I may have actually been already talking about them but then this thread has suddenly come awake again and I tried to read your guys interaction but could only get so far before this possibility strand of what a possibility strand is became quite the proverbial need to do the tappity tap tappitdy tapped tapping dance.

Excuse me while I go back for a bit.

Ah, I see now I was talking about them a little but kinda didn't know I was and only from here, as in reading what you'se have written, this idea of a possibility strand has become more of a real thing.

It's like your making something and whatever reason one had to make it doesn't really matter, well it does to a certain degree maybe but only in as far as it gets you there making but with a mind to being open to the possibilities as real potentials worth discovering, but you are there making it and what's in front of you has all these possibilities of where it could go but at the same time you have no idea where it's going.

Then it's a matter of making choices somehow, getting to an obviousness of decision and at the same time those possibility strands have to be open in such a way that the place where one might be going isn't limited just to what's in front of you but keeps on going so even whilst we nail down the most obvious choice it also leaves all these other possibilities open.

But then again I took one particular artwork to this festival and it was full of possibility and so hardly finished at all and if anything just a very rough sketch and I think that part of me wondered if anyone else would see this especially in amongst all the actual finished stuff... and nobody seemed to see it at all. And I did experiment with this a little when I'd be talking to someone or other about stuff and track them over towards potential and what it was and then I'd move towards this piece and explain a little of this great potential I'd see and then let them come to that as an idea and then follow them to wherever they might go and everybody wanted to nail it down as a finished thing to not necessarily define themselves but at the very least a measurable entity that weighed something... which was kinda interesting.

So now I have this idea that too much unfinished isn't working but that too much finished isn't working either. I mean finished just slots in too easily as in this is this and I can either fit it in or I don't want to fit it in whereas too unfinished is too much I don't ever consider where and how it could possibly fit anywhere so somewhere in the indefinable middle is what might be a balance between where it doesn't and does fit, as in I can make a choice, and that can't fit anywhere yet as if it is also it can fit everywhere and everywhere is too big.

So this middle, whatever it is, almost holds open a door which has the ability to make a choice sitting on it's edge but also allows a big enough opening to the strands of possibility, the already potented and the pure potential sit lazily together and somehow vanquish the need to define as the sole agent of change.

naturesflow
20-12-2015, 08:25 PM
[QUOTE=Mr Interesting]I like possibility strands but I'll have to go back to the beginning to see how I started because I may have actually been already talking about them but then this thread has suddenly come awake again and I tried to read your guys interaction but could only get so far before this possibility strand of what a possibility strand is became quite the proverbial need to do the tappity tap tappitdy tapped tapping dance.

Excuse me while I go back for a bit.

tap away..:)



It's like your making something and whatever reason one had to make it doesn't really matter, well it does to a certain degree maybe but only in as far as it gets you there making but with a mind to being open to the possibilities as real potentials worth discovering, but you are there making it and what's in front of you has all these possibilities of where it could go but at the same time you have no idea where it's going.

This is good. Describes it well. The idea is really an idea that is free and open to possibility which for means I no longer have any desire to control it/fear which brings up the intention that its guiding you to create your life more open, less in conditioned need or desire. Because as Gem has said, when that is in the creation of you extending itself, you will get back what you are seeking as a whole, you will create with obstacles hitting at you as you are, which means your *unclear* bits that you don't know about can and will create obstacles in your underlying hidden bits..:)

Then it's a matter of making choices somehow, getting to an obviousness of decision and at the same time those possibility strands have to be open in such a way that the place where one might be going isn't limited just to what's in front of you but keeps on going so even whilst we nail down the most obvious choice it also leaves all these other possibilities open.

Yes your choosing your life and how you would like to live and be, but your open to the possibilities of it all. So your allowing *yourself* in a more open context of you to also share and create in ways where you allow for the external building as one to be open to this as well. So in some regards, in this view, you will have no idea of how it is received, but in a more open whole state of creation you have no need to worry, desire or need of it. Rather its the open expression, in the form your expressing it as a complete picture anyway. So in this more complete creation, you are reflecting an outcome for a more whole creation of possibility in its creation.

But then again I took one particular artwork to this festival and it was full of possibility and so hardly finished at all and if anything just a very rough sketch and I think that part of me wondered if anyone else would see this especially in amongst all the actual finished stuff... and nobody seemed to see it at all. And I did experiment with this a little when I'd be talking to someone or other about stuff and track them over towards potential and what it was and then I'd move towards this piece and explain a little of this great potential I'd see and then let them come to that as an idea and then follow them to wherever they might go and everybody wanted to nail it down as a finished thing to not necessarily define themselves but at the very least a measurable entity that weighed something... which was kinda interesting.

I am not completely sure what you mean by the bolded part, especially the last few words. Can you explain what you mean?



So now I have this idea that too much unfinished isn't working but that too much finished isn't working either. I mean finished just slots in too easily as in this is this and I can either fit it in or I don't want to fit it in whereas too unfinished is too much I don't ever consider where and how it could possibly fit anywhere so somewhere in the indefinable middle is what might be a balance between where it doesn't and does fit, as in I can make a choice, and that can't fit anywhere yet as if it is also it can fit everywhere and everywhere is too big.

That now has really lost me..lol finished and unfinished, between the two of those their is a balance seeking itself also, but ultimately that space is the one who is creating in this way first and foremost. So when I read this I reflect this back to self at least for a starting point.

So this middle, whatever it is, almost holds open a door which has the ability to make a choice sitting on it's edge but also allows a big enough opening to the strands of possibility, the already potented and the pure potential sit lazily together and somehow vanquish the need to define as the sole agent of change.

Middle for me feels inclusive of the whole regardless of the middle choice. So the me in the middle, walking through and moving all this into creation is really just a movement open and clear, its a more unified creation. So whatever lays either side/above/below north south east west..etc etc.. of middle comes into the middle choice. So the question is how are the sides in me in this way. Because I am reflecting all that in myself as I create what I want.. How intergrated am I in my creative choice one with all this? How open am I in the choice I am making in this way? How open am I through the whole creation one with all this? (of course I am breaking it down here, sides are part of separation, but it opens the bigger picture in how this builds itself complete)

Mr Interesting
20-12-2015, 11:27 PM
I'd move towards this piece and explain a little of this great potential I'd see and then let them come to that as an idea and then follow them to wherever they might go and everybody wanted to nail it down as a finished thing to not necessarily define themselves but at the very least a measurable entity that weighed something.


I am not completely sure what you mean by the bolded part, especially the last few words. Can you explain what you mean?

I suppose what it is is that the obviously finished things are allowed to be judged as fitting ones reality and not necessarily outside that reality so much as worth not considering but still essentially real. But the unfinished stuff, which for me shouts possibly this or possibly that, hardly even seems to whisper to others and if anything it needs to be weighed as either useful to their reality when finished or not worth considering as if the possibility can't exist as possibility until it becomes linked to possible which for me looks as if impossible is an almost foregone conclusion.

So it's as if this tells me that there is an area where the impossible, which tends to me to be about the implausible more than actually impossible, can sit finished but unfinished and almost be completely comfortable about potential. That there is enough of the finished to create anchorage but it is a boat on the sea afterall as opposed to much of modern life where the boat seems mostly to be in dry dock get readied for the big voyage which essentially never arrives.

naturesflow
21-12-2015, 12:11 AM
[QUOTE=Mr Interesting][B]I'd move towards this piece and explain a little of this great potential I'd see and then let them come to that as an idea and then follow them to wherever they might go and everybody wanted to nail it down as a finished thing to not necessarily define themselves but at the very least a measurable entity that weighed something.


I suppose what it is is that the obviously finished things are allowed to be judged as fitting ones reality and not necessarily outside that reality so much as worth not considering but still essentially real. But the unfinished stuff, which for me shouts possibly this or possibly that, hardly even seems to whisper to others and if anything it needs to be weighed as either useful to their reality when finished or not worth considering as if the possibility can't exist as possibility until it becomes linked to possible which for me looks as if impossible is an almost foregone conclusion.


Yes ok now I see what you saying Mr I. I think this relates back to a loss or *not wired* in some form in people. We are naturally curious by nature and naturally we explore through our curiosity if we are open to utilize ourselves in this way.. Art in particular when people are immersed into it, visiting it as you were sharing, tends to show where people perhaps close off in only what they know..So in some ways its like a cutting off point in them for whatever reason. It reminds me of the Reggio Emilia philosophy approach for children and why so many adults have difficulty being open ended through exploration in the expression of art or other creative endeavours.

"The assumption of Malaguzzi and the parents was that people form their own personality during early years of development and that children are endowed with "a hundred languages" through which they can express their ideas" -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggio_Emilia_approach

And of course depending upon the variety of tools one has been given to express, it can often show peoples limitations to exploring beyond what they only know, with what they have to know with. Which is how we are for most things in this world. We are blind to possibility until we believe anything is possible even as we might see otherwise in ourselves.

So it's as if this tells me that there is an area where the impossible, which tends to me to be about the implausible more than actually impossible, can sit finished but unfinished and almost be completely comfortable about potential. That there is enough of the finished to create anchorage but it is a boat on the sea afterall as opposed to much of modern life where the boat seems mostly to be in dry dock get readied for the big voyage which essentially never arrives.

Good way to put it..

Mr Interesting
21-12-2015, 12:38 AM
Malaguzzi assumes too much. Yes it can be fun returning to the children and the animals.

All adults I think though have chinks, my assuming, and widening those chinks is my job.

Stopping them from widening them further after I might have opened them a little seems the job most apparent at the moment. Recently it seems you open them a little and they feel widening is better then maybe it's all too much and they go scurrying for the hills... but not the hills they wanted. I'm just making it up here, making myself potentially responsible for something that might not even be happening....

I wonder what Gem might add to this Southern Hemisphere chat fest.

naturesflow
21-12-2015, 05:29 AM
[QUOTE=Mr Interesting]Malaguzzi assumes too much. Yes it can be fun returning to the children and the animals.



Fun to be had anywhere..really.

All adults I think though have chinks, my assuming, and widening those chinks is my job.




Stopping them from widening them further after I might have opened them a little seems the job most apparent at the moment. Recently it seems you open them a little and they feel widening is better then maybe it's all too much and they go scurrying for the hills... but not the hills they wanted. I'm just making it up here, making myself potentially responsible for something that might not even be happening....

Being yourself can open up anything really... So really its all in a days being you I suppose.





I wonder what Gem might add to this Southern Hemisphere chat fest.

Don't know, have to wait and see I suppose.

Gem
21-12-2015, 03:29 PM
Got it!



Yes




So in some ways this shows your moving with intention of a whole host in you aware and allowing yourself to just be where you are in the moment. That makes sense. I can relate. Even as I might revisit wanting, I do notice that what is leading me now is this very thing. The difference of seeing how desire in wanting in the past was leading me. It set me up for disappointment and a whole host of others things, obstacles as you mentioned. I learned the hard way. Having let go of course now I can still think I want, but my awareness is stronger and leads me through and reminds me to stay present with what is. So in this way my balance of awareness in feeling is stronger than old feelings in desire and wants, which is a good thing I suppose..
Very good point on disappointment. They say hatred is the opposite of love, but in my inquiry it isn't that. Hatred is the partner of desire, as clinging and avoidance. Having that stability of mind, which you are calling 'balance', that can remain present with any of life's ups and downs. I sincerely believe this is at the very core of healing the kinds of obstacles we mentioned.

Yes it relates to a deeper unified feeling of self worth. I was talking to a lovely Greek lady today about this very thing. She is very caring and giving yet she told me when she needs support, no one is there for her. This shows me on some level this very thing. She feels worthy to give and create in this way, but her self worth doesn't allow for her to receive in the way she wants.
Excellent example of what I was saying. It's ok though - I don't mean to imply it needs to be otherwise - I'm merely pointing out the complications of LOA. It's so much more important to become conscious of what is being generated now. Not trying to change that - but like you were saying, having that balance strong enough to be at peace with it.

I believe it is most likely unconscious, unseen, unknown, but in saying this, our experience often leads us to where we need to be in the nature of our own balance, one way or another I think? Perhaps in some way we are choosing through cycles that are as they need to be? You cant make something known until someone is ready to see? The other aspect is really what I am aware of in myself and my own experience, understanding the nature of what is leading us predominantly through those cycles. Some pain bodies are extremely imbalanced and creating a lot of misery and pain simply out of the need to stay alive and just survive. A greater degree of pain and fear than someone who may have a balance of fear and love, so creates a life less extreme perhaps?

Yep all good points. We have to be where we need to be because that's what we're generating at the moment. Craving something other is really a huge distraction. Sure, I guess it's fair to say we choose thought cycles... pretty complex one that. Can be habitual and unconscious, so again, being conscious of what we generate now is the important thing. Ready to see and willing to see. I think this also comes back to the balance, because being willing is one thing, but readiness depends on the strength of the balance. I claim that meditation is only about keeping that balance. I think you'd one of the few who understand what I mean by that. Sure, everything in a person has good reason in survival. If we know that then we aren't judgmental, and we're also very cautious about more harm than good.

Yes in the awareness of desire and its contents it can be a very twisted and skewed view and not even realize what is harboured within itself sadly. Desire has such a force of energy behind it, it can be very destructive and so deeply attached, causing much misery.

Tru Dat. I claim that desire wichis the same coin, craving/avoidance, is the obstacle. It's the very thing that upsets balance. Any meditations that entail the desire for wonderful experiences are fundamentally misleading. (They were trying to 'help' me by conning me into temptation for 'energy experiences' today. heh.)

Yes for sure, I call this my check into me point. Or step back and breathe point, because ultimately if I am not in my own way when I am seeking something, I am more clearly seeing the greater view. Looking more directly at what is in that greater view. In this way I realize my want, becomes not just my own want, but a more inclusive direction calling me to walk through. All those questions you apply to this are really wise ones any one can ask..

Well, I just question everything. Without being a spiritual person myself, seriously, I'm just a guy living in Sydney suburb, I learned a lot just by sitting still a lot. I think, for me, as I was saying about death before, the letting go which is has no parts, but is all or nothing, it's going to boil down to trust in destiny come what may. From that perspective our petty LOA wants are unimportant. From that perspective there is something critically important which has nothing to do with want. It's a life and death situation. Ironically, death is life and life is death when you stand on the line between bondage in fear and freedom.


In some ways I view this as my own process, as in I am flowing through it all aware but its working in the way your showing here. The breakdown is really just my own awareness building this greater picture before moving into this in such a way I wont have to be immersed in it all, as past and future knowing so separated.. but more fully present with it as it just is. I tend to shift in this way more often than not and this shift is quite a big one so it makes sense the old me is being shown how its all moving this time, not being caught up in a darker night of the soul as it was last time.. If that makes sense. Ride it all and not really see the break down. It seems that my processing does break it down for a reason and purpose so I do ride it through aware of where its taking me in this way of one big flowing wave ride.. Omg how scary is that thought. ..lol

Gem
21-12-2015, 03:37 PM
[quote]

Yes for me I want without any attachment and no fear of losing if it falls either way. So I think not holding anything in this way, makes it a more open and clear expression of myself as I am now. And yes it feels peaceful and happy in this wanting, its not a strain or need that I am desperate about. I see, I seek change basically, I step into it and then I let go. So in this way I am allowing the process to be what it will be, not necessarily what I want. The want only opens my awareness to step into the space calling me to step up for something that opens my attention in the moment. So naturally I ride that wave and just immerse and let go. I am unattached to outcome, desire and even the want. Glad you received good grades, I imagine you put in a lot of dedication and time to your work all the same.

In some ways I can see this as your saying, its just movement and riding it all now. When you let go of what your seeking or needing, it becomes what you are seeking without seeking it, effortlessly.




Yes.

No seeking.

7luminaries
21-12-2015, 04:33 PM
Nice thread...agreed that equanimity is key. To everything really.
Integrity and right alignment as well. Key to everything really.
These are among the only things I value in myself and in life, along with clarity, presence, and lovingkindness in intent, word, and deed.

Peace & blessings all,
7L

Rokon
21-12-2015, 05:38 PM
I'm not relating to the direction of this thread.
Do you desire to be "Will-less"?
It's ok to have desire. We need direction, purpose. At least I do. Otherwise we have directional-less stagnation. Desire drives you to change. Without desire, or wanting, who'd want to change anything? Who would want to evolve without desire or wanting? Maybe you mean something else or am I just too dense...:wink:

naturesflow
21-12-2015, 08:47 PM
I'm not relating to the direction of this thread.
Do you desire to be "Will-less"?
It's ok to have desire. We need direction, purpose. At least I do. Otherwise we have directional-less stagnation. Desire drives you to change. Without desire, or wanting, who'd want to change anything? Who would want to evolve without desire or wanting? Maybe you mean something else or am I just too dense...:wink:

Your just a fish out water, so be it!:wink:

Mr Interesting
22-12-2015, 01:39 AM
"Equanimity (Latin: æquanimitas having an even mind; aequus even animus mind/soul) is a state of psychological stability and composure which is undisturbed by experience of or exposure to emotions, pain, or other phenomena that may cause others to lose the balance of their mind."

Wow, what a neat word! Therefore one could argue, or just plainly state, that such a mind would be without the need for direction which would balance on the idea that direction is only needed to seek encounters to create this equanimity.

I've been here five times already and written a few paragraphs then given up simply because I can't work out what I'm trying to say and still don't really know. I suppose it's that our own wants fulfilled and then reviewed as to what within that want was or was not actually satisfactory gives us the ability, if we so choose to even have it, to refine down to the essence of why we might want in the first place, examine and sit with the drive as it were, and giving ourselves that space almost immediately distances from the wanting... and so it begins.

I've found recently I really, really enjoy Abraham Hicks which feels like the LOA may be a surface common denominator to get people to listen but alongside this 'way to want effectively... or way to get more precisely, actually alignment of want to get' seems to come in a package that uncovers some very deep and meaningful stuff about what life really is.
And I can get this because it seems exactly what I've ended up doing somewhat by luck alone. That I somehow knew as a somewhat disadvantaged kid that my wants needed to be precise and reviewed for effectiveness. I didn't quite know where this would lead to but I certainly didn't want to end up doing far more work than was required so even that kinda stressed an efficiency. Long story short I became very effective at getting and then balancing off what I achieved with what I'd hoped I'd actually gained and now maybe forty years after that starting off into life I don't really want much of anything and it's got nothing to do with the fact I have heaps as having hardly anything would be pretty much the same... I'd still just want to be occupied doing stuff I find interesting and enjoy.

To the extent that it's almost completely about curiosity and the stuff itself doesn't matter.

To me then there's kinda two ways to get rid of attaching ourselves to things and it's either making your wants too big which means never achieving them and then figuring out you're pretty happy with what you have or keeping your wants small and attainable and figuring out those achievements don't actually do it for you in the getting of but they do it for us in the application to. The middle ground seems to be the minefield because it doesn't allow the reviewing and standing aside that is somehow required.

Basically I suppose it's want to your hearts content 'til you basically no longer have the need of wanting. Maybe it's then we can start to figure out what Heart's content really means...

Gem
22-12-2015, 03:06 AM
I'm not relating to the direction of this thread.
Do you desire to be "Will-less"?
It's ok to have desire. We need direction, purpose. At least I do. Otherwise we have directional-less stagnation. Desire drives you to change. Without desire, or wanting, who'd want to change anything? Who would want to evolve without desire or wanting? Maybe you mean something else or am I just too dense...:wink:

Yea, we were talking about doing 'what you want' as opposed to desire earlier on. But because it's also about 'what it is' it became directed to what's the state you're in now, which is to say, what it is like to be you at the moment. I was saying that doesn't have to be changed, and it suffices to be self aware. In terms of will, it's more like being willing for change, as it is inevitable that things change. Like Mr I described, balance is the equanimity of disposition, as opposed to becoming overwhelmed by whatever circumstances. I claim that this is the core element of peace of mind throughout the change of life's ups and downs, and the key to being willing for change. When we talk about the obstacles to 'what you want', these are the primary concern in terms of what changes. As it stands these obstacles are being regenerated and retained. The subtlety of this is, if you are adverse toward the obstacles, like you don't like it, then you generate hatred at the moment - which disrupts that balance of mind. Hence, I suggest, self awareness suffices.

Gem
22-12-2015, 03:52 AM
"Equanimity (Latin: æquanimitas having an even mind; aequus even animus mind/soul) is a state of psychological stability and composure which is undisturbed by experience of or exposure to emotions, pain, or other phenomena that may cause others to lose the balance of their mind."

Wow, what a neat word! Therefore one could argue, or just plainly state, that such a mind would be without the need for direction which would balance on the idea that direction is only needed to seek encounters to create this equanimity.

Yep - but a life with meaning and vitality, as opposed to a dull numbness. I'm not sure about direction because I'm on an experiential path from then til now, and it's layed out before me into the future, I have ideas of what I want and the obstacles become apparent as well. I think the direction that counts is toward purity, integrity and depth,

I've been here five times already and written a few paragraphs then given up simply because I can't work out what I'm trying to say and still don't really know. I suppose it's that our own wants fulfilled and then reviewed as to what within that want was or was not actually satisfactory gives us the ability, if we so choose to even have it, to refine down to the essence of why we might want in the first place, examine and sit with the drive as it were, and giving ourselves that space almost immediately distances from the wanting... and so it begins.

Hahahaha, no worries, I rarely know what I'm going to say when I start writing, and then I chop out all the rambly bits at the end.

I've found recently I really, really enjoy Abraham Hicks which feels like the LOA may be a surface common denominator to get people to listen but alongside this 'way to want effectively... or way to get more precisely, actually alignment of want to get' seems to come in a package that uncovers some very deep and meaningful stuff about what life really is.
And I can get this because it seems exactly what I've ended up doing somewhat by luck alone. That I somehow knew as a somewhat disadvantaged kid that my wants needed to be precise and reviewed for effectiveness. I didn't quite know where this would lead to but I certainly didn't want to end up doing far more work than was required so even that kinda stressed an efficiency. Long story short I became very effective at getting and then balancing off what I achieved with what I'd hoped I'd actually gained and now maybe forty years after that starting off into life I don't really want much of anything and it's got nothing to do with the fact I have heaps as having hardly anything would be pretty much the same... I'd still just want to be occupied doing stuff I find interesting and enjoy.

Interesting. Hahaha. (of course it is). I was just self reflecting on that, and I recall as a youngster I wanted to 'show them' what I could do. Later on, while on stage, it became more like, THIS is who I am. I'm really very reserved, not shy, and I'm pretty demanding in that won't abide by 'the big act', and demand sincerity, and I stand my ground in the power games - so I'm not meek or meager, but I don't easily reveal myself, and I keep a distance. People have said that I'm hard to get to know, but then, others have said I'm 'intriguing'. Hehehe. I like that latter one.

To the extent that it's almost completely about curiosity and the stuff itself doesn't matter.

That sounds good!

To me then there's kinda two ways to get rid of attaching ourselves to things and it's either making your wants too big which means never achieving them and then figuring out you're pretty happy with what you have or keeping your wants small and attainable and figuring out those achievements don't actually do it for you in the getting of but they do it for us in the application to. The middle ground seems to be the minefield because it doesn't allow the reviewing and standing aside that is somehow required.

It's like my analysis of the painter. Short story is, he makes paintings that he doesn't want. He just wants to paint. He wants to fantasize about what he will paint and he wants this immediate brushstroke. When the fantasy then becomes the finished object, he doesn't want it, so he fantasises about a new painting.

Basically I suppose it's want to your hearts content 'til you basically no longer have the need of wanting. Maybe it's then we can start to figure out what Heart's content really means...

I love this movie clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJT0sKkRcwc

Mr Interesting
22-12-2015, 06:51 PM
That clip, which also reminds me I'd like to go back and watch that movie as it was a very good, reminds me of a party many years ago which I was invited to and these people were very rich. The undercurrent was that a woman I liked very much was in attendance and it was her people and that I wasn't allowed somehow to know her people even whilst they also were quite willing to have me as a kind of entertainment with my decidedly blue collar ways... I was her entertainment but not to be passed around.

Anyway I ended up somewhat centre floor and discussing philosophy with someone who knew it very well in a scholastic sense and ended up telling him off because, and to this day, I believe that philosophy, any philosophy, that cannot, and will not, be applicable to the person in the street has absolutely no validity. And I know that in the circumstances I was seen as the village idiot and it perturbed me not in the least because even at that stage, nigh on twenty years ago, I knew to be true to what I felt was a much deeper truth than whatever knowledge I might have attained to that point and it was far less about winning that argument and far more about standing in front of that which I couldn't explain but knew to be valid.

And even now, so many years later, I have this inkling that those people who might have scoffed somewhat then at my lack of knowledge have had, creep up on them, a sense that I was indeed speaking of something far deeper even whilst I was quite unable to voice it.

Why and how that pertains to the clip I'm not sure but while the clip does kind of strike the right chords there is somehow too much treble and not enough bass. That within the confines of academia the ideas lack resonance, the walls are too far away to create echoes that mean we can define dimension. And maybe in the whole movie, if I remember correctly, there was that David Gale had to come to feel at the depths of his own being the reality of such ideas, of such beliefs, at a fundamental level of what life actually is.

It's like want cannot be cut off at the pass, as in old cowboy movies, we cannot lie in wait hiding behind rocks and then jump out and under order obtain that which looks to be simple to just grab under our own definitions of power. But, then again, of course we can do that but alike everything else... there are consequences.

That actually what I like most about wants. They have consequences and somehow we see ourselves more fully when we acknowledge the consequences of our actions and it seems somehow a little ridiculous to stop wants until such time has passed and consequences dwindle into nothing... maybe that's then what freedom is, an inconsequential life.

Sometimes I even see spirituality as a hope that by defining oneself as inconsequential and ignoring the consequences that result anyways that consequences will become bored with us and finally leave us alone.

7luminaries
30-12-2015, 06:24 PM
"Equanimity (Latin: æquanimitas having an even mind; aequus even animus mind/soul) is a state of psychological stability and composure which is undisturbed by experience of or exposure to emotions, pain, or other phenomena that may cause others to lose the balance of their mind."

Wow, what a neat word! Therefore one could argue, or just plainly state, that such a mind would be without the need for direction which would balance on the idea that direction is only needed to seek encounters to create this equanimity.

I've been here five times already and written a few paragraphs then given up simply because I can't work out what I'm trying to say and still don't really know. I suppose it's that our own wants fulfilled and then reviewed as to what within that want was or was not actually satisfactory gives us the ability, if we so choose to even have it, to refine down to the essence of why we might want in the first place, examine and sit with the drive as it were, and giving ourselves that space almost immediately distances from the wanting... and so it begins.

I've found recently I really, really enjoy Abraham Hicks which feels like the LOA may be a surface common denominator to get people to listen but alongside this 'way to want effectively... or way to get more precisely, actually alignment of want to get' seems to come in a package that uncovers some very deep and meaningful stuff about what life really is.
And I can get this because it seems exactly what I've ended up doing somewhat by luck alone. That I somehow knew as a somewhat disadvantaged kid that my wants needed to be precise and reviewed for effectiveness. I didn't quite know where this would lead to but I certainly didn't want to end up doing far more work than was required so even that kinda stressed an efficiency. Long story short I became very effective at getting and then balancing off what I achieved with what I'd hoped I'd actually gained and now maybe forty years after that starting off into life I don't really want much of anything and it's got nothing to do with the fact I have heaps as having hardly anything would be pretty much the same... I'd still just want to be occupied doing stuff I find interesting and enjoy.

:D hahaha! Yes that's pretty much it for me as well...

To the extent that it's almost completely about curiosity and the stuff itself doesn't matter.


LOL...exactly! I have been in this place more fully now for ages. As an interesting footnote, I have tried to explain this perspective to coffee dates, that for me it's not and never has been about the game or whatever one may want right now (or as soon as possible...) but rather almost entirely about presence and authenticity, and simply enjoying the conversation and getting to know the other person. In particular, kindness and courtesy are at a premium.

To me then there's kinda two ways to get rid of attaching ourselves to things and it's either making your wants too big which means never achieving them and then figuring out you're pretty happy with what you have or keeping your wants small and attainable and figuring out those achievements don't actually do it for you in the getting of but they do it for us in the application to. The middle ground seems to be the minefield because it doesn't allow the reviewing and standing aside that is somehow required.


There are some variants too...for example, living at a time and place where your needs simply cannot be met, regardless if they are basic and otherwise reasonable and attainable in the sense of being generally possible. You may reasonably wish to be minimally fed, housed, and civilly treated, but during times of war and famine, instead destitution and assault may be your only possible lot.

Likewise, you may wish for a civil society which is not predicated on utilitarianism and narcissism...which not only makes authentically loving connections extremely difficult and increasingly endangered, but which renders civil society itself increasingly unstable and unsustainable. But nonetheless you must cope with the one in which you find yourself, which means that whilst you may wish for real choice in partnership, you may find yourself navigating largely between the mainstream, ubiquitous utilitarian connections and opting out.

So I would say another variant is acknowledging that your desires are reasonable, healthy, and accrue positively toward humanity's sustainability (in addition to your own)...whilst also acknowledging that what is reasonable, healthy, and sustainable is not always what is broadly available...and most probably not only for you but also for a vast swath of society or even of humanity in general.

It's not always your desires that should be put aside...rather it is simply that we also need to acknowledge that we live in an extremely violent and (in the West) increasingly self-absorbed world that to some real degree has variously lost touch with even the desire to strive for its higher humanity. And so some desires, no matter how positive...whether for you or for the greater good...will most likely remain unfulfilled for most.

Basically I suppose it's want to your hearts content 'til you basically no longer have the need of wanting. Maybe it's then we can start to figure out what Heart's content really means...

Here, here!
Cheers, mate :biggrin:

Peace & blessings,
7L

7luminaries
30-12-2015, 06:37 PM
That clip, which also reminds me I'd like to go back and watch that movie as it was a very good, reminds me of a party many years ago which I was invited to and these people were very rich. The undercurrent was that a woman I liked very much was in attendance and it was her people and that I wasn't allowed somehow to know her people even whilst they also were quite willing to have me as a kind of entertainment with my decidedly blue collar ways... I was her entertainment but not to be passed around.

Anyway I ended up somewhat centre floor and discussing philosophy with someone who knew it very well in a scholastic sense and ended up telling him off because, and to this day, I believe that philosophy, any philosophy, that cannot, and will not, be applicable to the person in the street has absolutely no validity. And I know that in the circumstances I was seen as the village idiot and it perturbed me not in the least because even at that stage, nigh on twenty years ago, I knew to be true to what I felt was a much deeper truth than whatever knowledge I might have attained to that point and it was far less about winning that argument and far more about standing in front of that which I couldn't explain but knew to be valid.

And even now, so many years later, I have this inkling that those people who might have scoffed somewhat then at my lack of knowledge have had, creep up on them, a sense that I was indeed speaking of something far deeper even whilst I was quite unable to voice it.

Why and how that pertains to the clip I'm not sure but while the clip does kind of strike the right chords there is somehow too much treble and not enough bass. That within the confines of academia the ideas lack resonance, the walls are too far away to create echoes that mean we can define dimension. And maybe in the whole movie, if I remember correctly, there was that David Gale had to come to feel at the depths of his own being the reality of such ideas, of such beliefs, at a fundamental level of what life actually is.

It's like want cannot be cut off at the pass, as in old cowboy movies, we cannot lie in wait hiding behind rocks and then jump outand under order obtain that which looks to be simple to just grab under our own definitions of power. But, then again, of course we can do that but alike everything else... there are consequences.

That actually what I like most about wants. They have consequences and somehow we see ourselves more fully when we acknowledge the consequences of our actions and it seems somehow a little ridiculous to stop wants until such time has passed and consequences dwindle into nothing... maybe that's then what freedom is, an inconsequential life.

Sometimes I even see spirituality as a hope that by defining oneself as inconsequential and ignoring the consequences that result anyways that consequences will become bored with us and finally leave us alone.
Nice post. I like your discussion of how desire is at our centre...it is at the core of our humanity, and in acknowledging our desire, we come up against choices and opportunities, both, regarding reflection, honesty, and integrity. The most fundamental involve acknowledging our humanity and the centrality of desire to our humanity. Also, that by doing so, we ground ourselves more fully in our reality and in our centre. Grounding is critical and it is a positive and powerful good, as I see it. Equanimity is not possible without a strong and grounded centre, in my experience and in my observation, both.

In the sense of being disengaged and detached in the usual sense, I agree that the freedom you mention is really more an unappealing sort of default state than a freedom that emerges from engagement and equanimity. Freedom within a context of engagement of any kind would seem to be a more thorough test or experience of freedom.

This is what Milan Kundera said about the inconsequential life as freedom...thought you'd enjoy. There's more to the quote at the below link. I read the book years ago and liked it.

http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/4489585-nesnesiteln-lehkost-byt

“The heavier the burden, the closer our lives come to the earth, the more real and truthful they become.

Conversely, the absolute absence of burden causes man to be lighter than air, to soar into heights, take leave of the earth and his earthly being, and become only half real, his movements as free as they are insignificant.

What then shall we choose? Weight or lightness?”
-Milan Kundera

Mr Interesting
30-12-2015, 09:13 PM
Indeed and after this I shall go and pull weeds and clear some more of the forest to build a hut for she whos name cannot be spoken (TF) and it matters little whether she might actually ever live in it as even now I can hold the inspiration in such a way that while the building does indeed need to be done the reason I might hold doesn't ever need fulfilling.

Yes I could chose to be heartbroken that a dream needs to become real but doesn't that somehow do disservice to the dream? For me dreams kept as dreams, a kind of notebook of possibilities, for spirit to read and then devise tricky and revealing realities is what dreams are for, not for fulfilling at all. They are the impetus to find beauty in the mundane.

7luminaries
02-01-2016, 06:41 PM
That's a lovely thought, Mr. I. Completely agree.

It sums up all I could really say about the importance of desire and ideals and living in alignment with them. If nothing else, you'll have not only a small place in the woods to pop over to, but also you'll have come to love and honour yourself so well along the way that only the real thing -- love, presence, and authenticity -- will hold any sway in your dealings with others.

Peace & blessings in the new year! :hug3:
7L