PDA

View Full Version : Trapped in finitude


BurningBush
21-11-2015, 02:59 PM
I was just thinking about how this might be at the heart of any suffering that exists in my life. That is, the basic cause of suffering in my life is the knowledge that I am trapped in a limited firm, not just within a limited body but within a limited consciousness. How does one overcome this feeling of limitation?

Jyotir
21-11-2015, 03:19 PM
Not just your life, BurningBush, but everyone’s.

The basic cause is not being 'trapped' in a so-called limited form, because that same apparent limited form in appearance is actually the practical opportunity for liberation from it.

That ‘limited form’, i.e., limited body, limited consciousness - is also in actuality, in its essence and true nature infinite, eternal, all-conscious and free.

The key factor is in what attributes of existence we IDENTIFY with, which determines what we experience.

~ J

BurningBush
21-11-2015, 03:36 PM
So I think your message is this: life is only experienced as limited if one is identified with the wrong elements within life.

So what are these elements and how does one eliminate the related identification?

Jyotir
21-11-2015, 03:46 PM
In general, it's Ignorance - individual and Cosmic - in all it's forms (and they are endlessly mutable as the by-products and artifacts of ignorant identification and action).

The traditional ways ignorance is transcended in and through a consecrated spiritual practice are usually considered to be:


discrimination (jnana yoga)
devotion (bhakti yoga)
service (karma yoga)


Of course, combinations of those are viable; meditation is a useful adjunct as well.

~ J

Miss Hepburn
21-11-2015, 10:49 PM
... that same apparent limited form in appearance is the practical opportunity for liberation from it.
...what attributes of existence we IDENTIFY with, ... determine what we experience.EXCELLENT!
:notworthy:

Miss Hepburn
21-11-2015, 10:58 PM
... at the heart of any suffering that exists in my life. That is, the basic cause of suffering....I am trapped in a limited form,
not just within a limited body but within a limited consciousness.
How does one overcome this feeling of limitation? Ah, but grasshopper you are not limited.

You and I are the same...we have the ability to soar...to cut
these paper chains we were programmed into believing we have!!!

24/7 we can be like any yogi....any guru...connected to reality 24/7.


Anyone reading this...you can... :wink:
:icon_sunny:

Let this sink into your subconscience.

Shivani Devi
22-11-2015, 12:07 AM
In general, it's Ignorance - individual and Cosmic - in all it's forms (and they are endlessly mutable as the by-products and artifacts of ignorant identification and action).

The traditional ways ignorance is transcended in and through a consecrated spiritual practice are usually considered to be:


discrimination (jnana yoga)
devotion (bhakti yoga)
service (karma yoga)


Of course, combinations of those are viable; meditation is a useful adjunct as well.

~ JBhakti Yoga! YES!!!

After feeling spiritually 'trapped' for years, I just became too 'bogged down' in philosophy and rhetoric, reading this and that book/article whatever.

Then, a few days ago, I remembered what made me start doing it in the first place and my heart just imploded.

Three days on and I haven't 'come down' yet...I don't want to!!! I don't have to!!!

This is like 'mania with fringe benefits'...I just have to curb my explosive enthusiasm just a tad...but I cannot contain it anymore!

I'm not trapped in finitude anymore...

Aum Namah Shivaya

BurningBush
22-11-2015, 04:49 PM
For the infinite people posting on this thread, how do you exercise your infinity? What elements of your experience demonstrate that infinity?

dryad
22-11-2015, 06:28 PM
How does one overcome this feeling of limitation?

By exploring your boundaries and then dissolving them. A simple place to start is with the aura. Pay attention to your energy field. Notice how far out it extends. Notice the boundary line. Notice what is on the other side of the boundary line. The energy inside is you and the energy outside is not you. Then dissolve the boundary line. Again send your awareness out through the energy that is you into the energy that is not you but this time you cant tell where you stop and the rest of the world starts. And it doesn't matter because its all the same anyway. That's what limtless feels like.

BurningBush
22-11-2015, 06:59 PM
By exploring your boundaries and then dissolving them. A simple place to start is with the aura. Pay attention to your energy field. Notice how far out it extends. Notice the boundary line. Notice what is on the other side of the boundary line. The energy inside is you and the energy outside is not you. Then dissolve the boundary line. Again send your awareness out through the energy that is you into the energy that is not you but this time you cant tell where you stop and the rest of the world starts. And it doesn't matter because its all the same anyway. That's what limtless feels like.
This is interesting. I would say that I do this except that I have to work on energy blockages within the confines of my body and only rarely have I ever tried to manipulate energy outside of my body, for the simple reason that the in-body blockages are a bigger priority. Perhaps after I resolve the in-body stuff I can look to the external.

Frederick33
22-11-2015, 07:07 PM
maybe you just worry to much
using these big words relating to big concepts
what if it where no bigger that a match stick
or a dot between words you don't read on a page you don't read
in a book with to many pages all boring and complicated
making it all so difficult
long ago I just to think about things
I gave that up
it meant nothing, did nothing
yes coffee table conversation with those that read
strange books
but happiness ?
love is a nice word for happiness
only what you love brings happiness :-)

Mr Interesting
22-11-2015, 07:49 PM
I like questions like this because they bring us back to the essential question beyond all the hyperbole of the fantastical eruditions which seem to be increasingly limiting spirituality itself.

Me, I'm an artist and it seems I can't really help being anything but an artist and quite often, not so much now but in the past, I got genius thrown at me all over the place but I already knew I was with the completely certain proviso that it wasn't about me at all.

And the thing is that, just like Einstein said, "everybody's a genius" and it's absolutely true and that's also where all the problems start.

But before I go further I got the genius thing thrown at me alot about four years ago and looking back it was seemingly about me creating artworks, though still somewhat simplistic, that still had a fairly hefty amount of specialised skills and materials involved and it was like the people then had that barrier where they could happily identify this genius and not have to admit it themselves, and in themselves, because this set of skills allowed the distance wherein they were still just the audience.

My latest artworks though, oh yes, much simpler again, and that barrier of me being special because of my skills and choice of materials being specialised in some way... gone! The feedback was such that people were just standing quietly in front of the works and letting them speak and hardly any commentary, no excuses as it were, and then right at the end, as I was taking them down, this learned chap came to speak with me and what was really interesting is that he kept alluding to past genius's but wouldn't admit that I was... and you know why that's really interesting?

It's interesting because these artworks somehow got really close to a sense where the people themselves had to admit their own genius... they couldn't just say it was me being special in some way, that I've finally been able to somehow take out the me in it all and somehow pass on the message of finding ones own unlimitedness in their limitations.

That I could go in and put up my stuff and let it do it work and then quietly depart and kinda watch the whole process doing what it does while I'm just basically a simple worker doing what I do.

So like Jyotir says you have discrimination, devotion and service but for me they are still a bit high falutin', a bit too precocious (sorry Jyotir) and we gotta simplify things a bit more, bring 'em down to the ground, limit them even, and my way, many years ago was the trinity compared to faith, hope and charity.

We have the father, the son and the holy ghost which quite easily compares to the universe, our withiness and the messaging between and then we give it real groundedness by throwing in faith, hope and charity and go a little further by giving them characterisations.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y115/quickkiwi/This%20Molten%20Coil/1WorkinMetalsintheBigPictureHouse.jpg

I won't here take it all apart but I do like this photo of a meeting in Mexico in the thirties between three luminaries of sociality.
https://www.wsws.org/en/media/photos/legacy/2009apr/a25-rose-lt-480.jpg

Faith was Diego the muralist working in his own country to define somehow the spirit of the people, Hope was Leon and a world revolution and Charity was the surrealist poet Andre playing with words.

I now have a willingness to be preposterous with what might be my own genius as if my own humility is such that even the characterisation of myself is something I'm now willing to play with... that if it serves as a valid tool to which my hand can grasp then who am I to question?

(edit) I've just messaged a chap who's coming over today to learn how to build gaudiesque walls and is going to give me seventy bucks... it's my new thing. One on one and this guy has been flitting around the edges for ages kinda denying his own capabilities of intuitive process but I got him at last! I know he's got the magic thing gnawing at his conscience, sitting on the edge of how he defines his capabilities and then running off when he tries to grab it for his own inglorious needs, so just playing with sand and cement and making aesthetic choices outside the bounds of string lines and levels, which is what this poet who lays tiles for a living does, is going to give him, me hopes, some unrefined time with his inner child and some confidence in the quietness and wonder such time taken in suspension of beliefs might entail... playing with dirt.

CrystalSong
22-11-2015, 08:03 PM
For the infinite people posting on this thread, how do you exercise your infinity? What elements of your experience demonstrate that infinity?


I go in and out of body, but am learning when its a good time to do so verses it just 'happening' to me. Basically this body has stopped being 'me' and is sort of my particular flesh hotel for this dimension and I have standing reservations for this dimension in this body, but I can also be in this dimension without having to be in this particular flesh hotel and can go visit friends and loved one's flesh hotels or even go in them and visit them.
What I really am is an etheric energy being who's able to wander about the multi-verse at will in total love, exploration and experiencing its self experiencing - pure consciousness not limited to anything I don't agree to be limited too.
Most of my time 'recently' is spent using this flesh hotel to do fun and interesting things in this dimension because it's my main focus for this Now, but I like to take regular vacations and mini-vacations away from it.

CrystalSong
22-11-2015, 08:10 PM
Or another way to say it is I no longer believe I am the thinking mind or the body - they are merely tools for this particular in depth exploration of the species Human on the 3D planet called earth.
Ceasing to believe you are 'only' frees you up to discover what else you are - which is extremely vast and limited only by what your thinking mind decides and determines it might now.

BurningBush
22-11-2015, 10:53 PM
Or another way to say it is I no longer believe I am the thinking mind or the body - they are merely tools for this particular in depth exploration of the species Human on the 3D planet called earth.
Ceasing to believe you are 'only' frees you up to discover what else you are - which is extremely vast and limited only by what your thinking mind decides and determines it might now.
I understand the divide between my "soul" and the physical world, but my soul is no less contained by a physical body and the physical experiences of my immaterial soul are limited to physical realities of the world I live in.

What can be experienced other than the physical senses and thought (including replications of physical senses by thought)?

Shivani Devi
22-11-2015, 11:18 PM
For the infinite people posting on this thread, how do you exercise your infinity? What elements of your experience demonstrate that infinity?Through total and abject surrender to God.

The experience? detachment is the best way I can explain it. Like you are looking at things from a different/higher perspective...nothing much more than that.

r6r6
23-11-2015, 03:50 AM
BurningBush---For the infinite people posting on this thread, how do you exercise your infinity?

Good!

The Necromancer--Through total and abject surrender to God.

Huh?

B.B.-- What elements of your experience demonstrate that infinity?

Good!

The experience? detachment is the best way I can explain it. Like you are looking at things from a different/higher perspective...nothing much more than that.

I detach to some degree in some states of sleep. This is not looking at all because were asleep for the most part-- in a good REM sleep --- or when the body goes into parlyisis during some sleep phase maybe is detached.

Deep sleep is the closet we come to not looking. imho What do differrent coma patients recall?

Infinity is a concept only, except for the macro-infinite non-occupied space that embraces our finite, occupied space Universe.

r6

Shivani Devi
23-11-2015, 05:44 AM
"Huh?"

Okay...when one finally admits to and believes in a force higher/greater than themselves and then they place their whole heart and soul totally subservient to His Will and Divine Grace and...holds...nothing...back!

Maybe It's just the language I use?...I dunno. lol

r6r6
23-11-2015, 03:50 PM
...r6--"Huh?"...Okay...when one finally admits to and believes in a force higher/greater than themselves and then they place their whole heart and soul totally subservient to His Will and Divine Grace and...holds...nothing...back! Maybe It's just the language I use?...I dunno. lol

The electric transformer outside my house on a pole is "force higher/great" than myself. That is irrelevant to infinity, as the original questions disscussion was referencieng.

The list goes on of many phenomena that a "force higher/greatrer than" ourselves and none are related to infinity.

It is rational, logical common sense and simple to me and yet to see any raional, logical common sense that invalidates my previous reply in these regards;

infinity is just a concept, except for that metaphysical-2, macro-infinite, non-occupied space, that exists beyond/outside of our finite, occupied space UniVerse.

This is a simple, and almost no brainer, for any who believe we live in a finite, occupied space Universe. imho

r6

Shivani Devi
23-11-2015, 03:59 PM
The electric transformer outside my house on a pole is "force higher/great" than myself. That is irrelevant to infinity, as the original questions disscussion was referencieng.

The list goes on of many phenomena that a "force higher/greatrer than" ourselves and none are related to infinity.

It is rational, logical common sense and simple to me and yet to see any raional, logical common sense that invalidates my previous reply in these regards;

infinity is just a concept, except for that metaphysical-2, macro-infinite, non-occupied space, that exists beyond/outside of our finite, occupied space UniVerse.

This is a simple, and almost no brainer, for any who believe we live in a finite, occupied space Universe. imho

r6Now, it's my turn to go 'huh?'

Are we even discussing the same thing here? I think we are on two totally different wavelengths, mate.

'Infinity' exists outside man's own sensory experience and rational judgment. For those still thinking 'inside the box' this can be seen as a concept.

I mustn't have a brain then...ah well, worse things have happened...

Baile
23-11-2015, 04:23 PM
How does one overcome this feeling of limitation?By loving one's limitations. We're here to joyfully experience our imperfect humanness, and not to lament our separation from perfect spirit.
And answer #2: We are perfect no matter what and there is no separation. Take your pick.

CrystalSong
23-11-2015, 04:57 PM
I understand the divide between my "soul" and the physical world, but my soul is no less contained by a physical body and the physical experiences of my immaterial soul are limited to physical realities of the world I live in.

What can be experienced other than the physical senses and thought (including replications of physical senses by thought)?

There's a HUGE amount which can be experienced which isn't perceivable by the bodies 5 senses and thought. There's a whole Multi-verse which in fact Can't be experienced if one is trying to use the 5 senses and thought to experience it.
To experience that one must setting the thinking mind aside in silence and leave their physical body, move out in pure consciousness, only leaving the tools of this world (senses and thought) in this world.
It is our consciousness or spirit/soul however one wants to say it, that has the key's to the Beyond.

Shivani Devi
23-11-2015, 04:59 PM
There's a HUGE amount which can be experienced which isn't perceivable by the bodies 5 senses and thought. There's a whole Multi-verse which in fact Can't be experienced if one is trying to use the 5 senses and thought to experience it.
To experience that one must setting the thinking mind aside in silence and leave their physical body, move out in pure consciousness, only leaving the tools of this world (senses and thought) in this world.
It is our consciousness or spirit/soul however one wants to say it, that has the key's to the Beyond.Perfect! Nicely expressed.

r6r6
23-11-2015, 05:10 PM
The Necromancer--'Infinity' exists outside man's own sensory experience and rational judgment. For those still thinking 'inside the box' this can be seen as a concept.

Yes infinity is a concept only, except for the macro-infinite, non-occupied space outside of/beyond our finite, occupied space Universe.

Your getting closer to acknowledging and accepting what I have laid out clearly.

You offer no rational, logical common sense explanations for any other infinity.

I mustn't have a brain then...ah well, worse things have happened...

If you think you dont have a brain, then your definitely having some mental issues that need addressing.

r6

Shivani Devi
23-11-2015, 05:29 PM
Yes infinity is a concept only, except for the macro-infinite, non-occupied space outside of/beyond our finite, occupied space Universe.

Your getting closer to acknowledging and accepting what I have laid out clearly.

You offer no rational, logical common sense explanations for any other infinity.


If you think you dont have a brain, then your definitely having some mental issues that need addressing.

r6I've already addressed them and they didn't like my tone of voice...I'll try addressing them again...it's not like my 'mental issues' are gonna listen though...waste of time there...

You know why I offer no rational, logical, common sense argument? Because there isn't any....and nobody said there had to be one either.

r6r6
23-11-2015, 05:36 PM
You know why I offer no rational, logical, common sense argument? Because there isn't any....and nobody said there had to be one either.

Yeah, that was my point from the beginning. Glad to see were in agreement oh what you do not offer. Thx

R6

Shivani Devi
23-11-2015, 05:39 PM
Yeah, that was my point from the beginning. Glad to see were in agreement oh what you do not offer. Thx

R6If that was your point from the beginning, it must have got lost in translation somewhere, or else I just missed it entirely.

I offer nothing, what were you expecting? :rolleyes:

Baile
23-11-2015, 05:48 PM
n/m.......

BurningBush
23-11-2015, 06:03 PM
There's a HUGE amount which can be experienced which isn't perceivable by the bodies 5 senses and thought. There's a whole Multi-verse which in fact Can't be experienced if one is trying to use the 5 senses and thought to experience it.
To experience that one must setting the thinking mind aside in silence and leave their physical body, move out in pure consciousness, only leaving the tools of this world (senses and thought) in this world.
It is our consciousness or spirit/soul however one wants to say it, that has the key's to the Beyond.
I'm not sure if it was this thread that inspired me or whether I was already almost there as indicated by the fact that I started this thread about finitude/infinity, but before I went to sleep last night I almost went into an astral travel experience. It didn't actually happen because as soon as I realized what was happening, it stopped, but after the fact I knew that what I was doing was what someone needs to do to astral travel and it was essentially exactly what you said, "leaving the tools of this world (senses and thought) in this world."

Even though I didn't quite cross the line, it was still exhilarating. It left me with the question of whether the ability to astral travel is indicative of a victory over the ego. It's interesting because I've had what could be called visions, but this was certainly different.

With that said, what I was getting at is that even if someone has a vision or astral travels, would their experience not be a replication of the senses by the mind, consciousness, or whatever term you prefer? For example, the person would still see, just not with his eyes. Are there any other dimensions other than this quasi-physical one to explore?

CrystalSong
23-11-2015, 11:12 PM
I'm not sure if it was this thread that inspired me or whether I was already almost there as indicated by the fact that I started this thread about finitude/infinity, but before I went to sleep last night I almost went into an astral travel experience. It didn't actually happen because as soon as I realized what was happening, it stopped, but after the fact I knew that what I was doing was what someone needs to do to astral travel and it was essentially exactly what you said, "leaving the tools of this world (senses and thought) in this world."

Even though I didn't quite cross the line, it was still exhilarating. It left me with the question of whether the ability to astral travel is indicative of a victory over the ego. It's interesting because I've had what could be called visions, but this was certainly different.

With that said, what I was getting at is that even if someone has a vision or astral travels, would their experience not be a replication of the senses by the mind, consciousness, or whatever term you prefer? For example, the person would still see, just not with his eyes. Are there any other dimensions other than this quasi-physical one to explore?

Good questions I don't have answers but can give you my explanation which I accept as not the Big Truth, but the best truth this wee little human mind can grasp at this time.

Yes, your mind becoming aware that something was happening and deciding to pay attention to it is what stopped you from astral traveling. This is where lots of meditation pays of because we develop the ability to keep the mind quiet and not engaged so it doesn't stop these experiences.

Our experience in the astral and other dimensions (there are uncountable many of them) does get interpreted to some extent by our body and mind because that's what we have for interpreting. But some of what we experience just doesn't translate at all.
Kundalini awakening gets interpreted as full body orgasm often because that's the only 'human' experience which even comes close to explaining it.

In the same manner the body interprets illness - there's only so many symptoms we can have, diarrhea, vomiting, fever, bone ache, fatigue and listlessness, sweating or dry heat and so on - yet those same symptoms cover diseases as different as Malaria, Dysentery, Nile Fever, Sleeping Sickness, and so on.
Our bodies have a limited way to say 'Hey something is happening to me!".
It is the same when we go out of body and our mind translates what our consciousness is perceiving - it has a limited language.

Lack of ability to fully translate an experience though doesn't negate the validity of the experience however.

wmsm
24-11-2015, 01:18 AM
You teach yourself that you are not trapped, you are sharing an experience.

The experience that our 2 spirits as a male and female belong to is our parentage...our higher selves....our adult presences and a condition of inheriting life...manifestation.

We began as innocent being without wisdom of knowledge...and only existed as conscious awareness of spirit...for all spirit living with us came from the same spiritual presence, our androgyny. Spirit communing together gave advice about its own spirit in the communications, so we existed mutually in a spiritual experience.

We altered this experience when we introduced science that changed our natural environment and support system...the holy atmosphere.

Being attacked by increased radiation due to fall out caused by the science, made our minds become aware that we had trapped our own persons in an attack condition...which caused us to consider our own holiness.

We then taught religious and spiritual instructions so that we could alleviate the condition that we gave our innocent selves...a changed brain condition.

Sadly since modern day spiritual activity also involves atmospheric conversion many minds on Earth have now been troubled with the same information...being attacked with no where to go.