PDA

View Full Version : The help-me/no-thanks (plus know-it-all) complex


Tanemon
19-10-2015, 01:39 AM
An insight crystallized for me recently, and I think it’s something that may resonate with others here on the forums. Y’know, if it resonates, it may be helpful… if not… :icon_salut:

This is about development into a fully functional human being (which certainly includes the spiritual aspect). I realized how my life unfolded with me, as a little kid, by six or seven wanting to prove to myself and the world that I didn’t need help to do or accomplish things. Sort of the “get away, I don’t need assistance, I know how to do things” overconfidence (IOW, my confidence wasn’t always justified). That was coupled with the fact that I was bright in school - a fast learner - and was receiving praise for intellectual zip and performance. And I guess also coupled with the fearsome influence of my authoritarian, hot-tempered dad.

So that whole package in me was only partially successful. It now seems obvious to me the whole mess got incorporated into my aura.

On the one hand, it’s made me more independent. Besides “heady” sorts of work that I’ve been able to do for income, due to my education, I’ve learned to be a fair-hand at plumbing, electrician stuff, carpentry, basic metal shop work, food gardening, small-engine mechanics, firewood cutting and stuff like that. BUT there’s been something in my energy field that has left me without any helping hand available at times when I’ve needed it. In nearly all aspects of my life. Frustrating!

In terms of the strictly spiritual-development aspect of life, I have had teachers. But I didn’t seek them out very early or often, and tended to backslide into my overly independent habit. I had a big breakthrough back in 2000 when I got the first of my attunements into healing energies and methods. These opened up my heart dimension much more than earlier instruction in meditation did, as important as I do feel meditation to be.

What I don’t know is how much of the resistance to assistance is still operative within me. I’m still exploring that, I guess, and will be trying to dissolve it.

Like I mentioned at the beginning, I thought I’d post this since others may have something to say based on their life. :coffee2: :hug3:

Tobi
19-10-2015, 01:52 AM
I think sometimes it's not so much that we don't want assistance -as we want that assistance to completely synch with our deep feelings and intuitions. Maybe it's when it doesn't quite do that (?) -that we prefer to find out independently what to do next? And are thrown back on our own resources -which is often a sound way of learning!

Also, sometimes others give good advice but it happens to be untimely. That is -we are not yet developed enough to recognise the advice and be able to do something with it. And sometimes even only a few years down the line -we suddenly can utilise that information!

Tanemon
19-10-2015, 02:19 AM
Oh, I agree Tobi. But you're describing only the up side. :D

naturesflow
19-10-2015, 02:29 AM
[QUOTE=Tanemon]An insight crystallized for me recently, and I think it’s something that may resonate with others here on the forums. Y’know, if it resonates, it may be helpful… if not… :icon_salut:

Insights are great and a nice beginning to things unfolding from there..:wink:

This is about development into a fully functional human being (which certainly includes the spiritual aspect). I realized how my life unfolded with me, as a little kid, by six or seven wanting to prove to myself and the world that I didn’t need help to do or accomplish things. Sort of the “get away, I don’t need assistance, I know how to do things” overconfidence (IOW, my confidence wasn’t always justified). That was coupled with the fact that I was bright in school - a fast learner - and was receiving praise for intellectual zip and performance. And I guess also coupled with the fearsome influence of my authoritarian, hot-tempered dad.



So that whole package in me was only partially successful. It now seems obvious to me the whole mess got incorporated into my aura.

On the one hand, it’s made me more independent. Besides “heady” sorts of work that I’ve been able to do for income, due to my education, I’ve learned to be a fair-hand at plumbing, electrician stuff, carpentry, basic metal shop work, food gardening, small-engine mechanics, firewood cutting and stuff like that. BUT there’s been something in my energy field that has left me without any helping hand available at times when I’ve needed it. In nearly all aspects of my life. Frustrating!

In terms of the strictly spiritual-development aspect of life, I have had teachers. But I didn’t seek them out very early or often, and tended to backslide into my overly independent habit. I had a big breakthrough back in 2000 when I got the first of my attunements into healing energies and methods. These opened up my heart dimension much more than earlier instruction in meditation did, as important as I do feel meditation to be.

What I don’t know is how much of the resistance to assistance is still operative within me. I’m still exploring that, I guess, and will be trying to dissolve it.

Like I mentioned at the beginning, I thought I’d post this since others may have something to say based on their life. :coffee2: :hug3:

We don't like to be told sometimes because we didn't like how we were told a long time ago.

The feelings often get in the way that were created by the person telling or not validating/acknowledging us..

And really the interpretation of how things are shared will activate these feelings and create a relationship to old wounds and often then we can open up the resistance/attachements as potential in the offering or we close up shop and do it our own way again. And so are the days of our lives...

The infinite balance of giving and receiving can awaken as a state of being within, when we open to what we want to bring in and let go of what keeps us receiving..

I speak this without the I involved but it is my personal experience, I cant be bothered going back to change it, so this rectification will do...ooopsy Gem. :D

naturesflow
19-10-2015, 02:33 AM
Control and firm ideas about how things should be comes into this picture, been there too.

Being the Strong one

Been there too.

Not willing to show my vulnerable side, been there too.

Probably more I will note of them as they arise.

naturesflow
19-10-2015, 03:02 AM
I think the whole know it all complex or idea can be confused with someone who is trying to do it all and control, and a perceived [I]know it all who could be someone who has walked through these things and actually does know through experience first hand. Often opening deeper and has built balance. I personally have walked through these things, and continue to do so to enrich the balance of my own state in all ways of being. Balance is a life long part of being true to self and allowing life to support oneself in many ways of life.

The universe (as a whole host )provides, we find the balance that supports us when we allow, accept and let go to the provision and many life experiences on offer. I can pick and choose what I want, but if life offers something, I might not like, it also offers me an expanded view of balance in myself, in that way, which in turn opens the doorway to living and being in a world that is more supportive of you and your balance, as a whole.

Everything coming in offers a point of letting go to allow the balance within to build a balance of giving and receiving.. sharing and supporting..(whatever you wish to call it)

Mr Interesting
19-10-2015, 03:29 AM
In a sense why shouldn't the can't love another 'til you love yourself thing be entirely the same as being independent? I've never really seen myself as independent and have always enjoyed working with others... even more than the work itself but I kinda get into that it needs to be done and there's no one else here so may as well get on with it.

Also without a shred of pride most people just haven't got the skills to keep up and even when they're at least willing to admit that quite a few leave 'cause that's a hard one to cope with.

So to expand on the first thought I don't think working with others can really work to the potential that we're all capable unless we know the limits we ourselves have. I'm going almost right now to get some assistance with a guy who played second fiddle to Bob Benedetto, the best acoustic archtop guitar builder in the World... 'cause I need someone with machines to cut my wood collected from the side of the road.

I'd seen this guy's place a few times but he was never there so I finally looked him up and sent an email and he's like 'come on over' and we'll see what we can do. And I think alot of that comes from my own willingness to absolutely try and do as much as I can and that that gives me an aura that others with the same aura can feel too, kindred spirits as it were... so I labour away in my own corner for months on end then when I finally go out I manage to find these absolutely world class people and they're almost always 'come and use my stuff'... which is what I'm like too.

Gem
19-10-2015, 03:52 AM
My view is that help is completely misconstrued, and because it so fundamentally misunderstood, receiving (what people refer to as) help is altogether a revolting experience. For example, this notion that people aren't ready to receive advice is fundamentally erroneous. Advice isn't helpful. This notion of progress is needed before one is ready for the advice is nonsense. Who defines what progress looks like? The person seeking help did not define what progress looks like. The adviser defines that and then asserts advice as relevant. The adviser sets themselves up as the expert on someone elses life and is so busy imagining outcomes and telling people what to do that they don't even listen to understand the issue in all its complexity. They don't allow the person to define their own visions of progress and they force the person (who is vulnerable due to their uncertainty) to conform to their own version of progress.

I also resist this perverse notion of help, and perhaps it is just this common misunderstanding of help that the OP is resistant to. Indeed the qualities of independence, self reliance and resilience described are valuable to have and are not reduced, but further enhanced by help - but not by what most people are referring to as help. If indeed it could be seen that a person independently defined for themselves what progress looks like and decided themselves what they might do, and help meant to be supported and encouraged in those self determinations - not distracted from them by everyone's opinions (which is what advice is), without being pressured to conform to advisers definitions of progress and impelled to obey their suggestions (indeed an adviser will drop you like a hot stone and say, oh well, they just aren't ready), then perhaps help can actually be quite appealing as it becomes something people do together in a supportive way where they are on your side.

Gem
19-10-2015, 04:59 AM
I think the whole know it all complex or idea can be confused with someone who is trying to do it all and control, and a perceived [I]know it all who could be someone who has walked through these things and actually does know through experience first hand. Often opening deeper and has built balance. I personally have walked through these things, and continue to do so to enrich the balance of my own state in all ways of being. Balance is a life long part of being true to self and allowing life to support oneself in many ways of life.

The universe (as a whole host )provides, we find the balance that supports us when we allow, accept and let go to the provision and many life experiences on offer. I can pick and choose what I want, but if life offers something, I might not like, it also offers me an expanded view of balance in myself, in that way, which in turn opens the doorway to living and being in a world that is more supportive of you and your balance, as a whole.

Everything coming in offers a point of letting go to allow the balance within to build a balance of giving and receiving.. sharing and supporting..(whatever you wish to call it)
This makes sense because the notions of sharing and supporting operate on deeper level than 'an idea of what someone should do'.

The problem I see is thinking that your own experience is relevant to the situation. It is probably relevant to the relationship but there's a tentative area in presuming to know what's what in regards to another person. I end up coming to understand deeper more complex issues than what at first seemed apparent and find myself in an uncomfortable situation where I really don't know what to do to help. I think one has to arrive at this not-knowing to really listen in the immediacy of its unfolding to get to the point of figuring it out together, rather than having it all figured out out for them. There's a realisation that answers and solutions are not as important as being present with the discomforts and distresses of this uncertainty. Although its difficult to resist, It's mostly misguided to project my own prior experience upon another person's life through entering the delusion that I know better. As soon as I know better I become the hand that pulls people along rather than the hand that supports people through rough terrain.

It's important, I claim, that the person is enabled to navigate their situation without being influenced. I have to 'keep out of the way' as an influence and be more inert, kinda like a solid support rather than a propulsion unit, as it were. A lot of my own anxiety can be blamed on things 'going wrong' - and projecting that on them is simply detrimental.

I think Mr I paints an illustration where his helper isn't going to interfere with the project, but rather, understand the project that Mr I describes to him, and then make his his experience, knowledge and resources available to meet Mr I's description. This leaves Mr I to define the needs and the process required to meet the needs. It's entirely Mr I's vision. That pretty much captures the thing as I see it.

naturesflow
19-10-2015, 06:33 AM
[QUOTE=Gem]This makes sense because the notions of sharing and supporting operate on deeper level than 'an idea of what someone should do'.



People are often motivated with intention from where they are within, its the nature of the world being itself with what it has and knows. Even the "should do's" do because that is what they know and do. Until they know more of course.

The problem I see is thinking that your own experience is relevant to the situation. It is probably relevant to the relationship but there's a tentative area in presuming to know what's what in regards to another person.


Well sometimes I find its best to let go of everything in that moment and allow the unfolding to flow naturally through listening to the other. Listening to me is an ongoing flow of movement and understanding deeper through each moment shared. Being present and unattached allows for the person to be heard also without interference.

I attended a day long workshop on being the observer yesterday. I noticed even as many participated with stories, needs, experiences, I just felt like I wanted to observe. So I did. It was relaxing and peaceful. I came away quite energised, which was nice. Some people obviously choose the workshop like this to let go to other observers to learn their own observing nature. And some go to practice their observing nature that they know to be. Well It seemed that way yesterday and other workshops I attend.

I end up coming to understand deeper more complex issues than what at first seemed apparent and find myself in an uncomfortable situation where I really don't know what to do to help.

As I mentioned listening is ongoing so naturally I often note the flow and changing as a whole host through it all. That way your not disregarding what is shared as a whole. Or interfering mid way, with yourself or your own stories. I find sometimes my story is pertinent to a situation but I always listen and discern anyway so when it occurs who am I too say. Its not something I think about, more allow through the process of the other. And even as it might pop up I will question it as to whether it is important to the whole and often it keeps popping up till I find the moment to let it in. I trust myself in this way though, not many do.


I think one has to arrive at this not-knowing to really listen in the immediacy of its unfolding to get to the point of figuring it out together, rather than having it all figured out out for them.



That makes sense.
If your comfortable in your own not knowing then I imagine you would naturally be able to support another to figure things out for themselves, so really again it comes back to being present without *need or desire* to change or make something occur but more allowing the connection to be as it is just through listening and movement of itself in that shared space. Well that is how I see it and like to move myself.



There's a realisation that answers and solutions are not as important as being present with the discomforts and distresses of this uncertainty. Although its difficult to resist, It's mostly misguided to project my own prior experience upon another person's life through entering the delusion that I know better. As soon as I know better I become the hand that pulls people along rather than the hand that supports people through rough terrain.

I like to discern through the whole process, I don't like holding better than, judgment or need. I just listen and trust and discern. It works well for me.

Now that I have this observer self down pat through some conscious awareness of myself and practice yesterday, I am sure it will play a vital role in my own awareness around others.


It's important, I claim, that the person is enabled to navigate their situation without being influenced. I have to 'keep out of the way' as an influence and be more inert, kinda like a solid support rather than a propulsion unit, as it were. A lot of my own anxiety can be blamed on things 'going wrong' - and projecting that on them is simply detrimental.

I like getting out of the way it works well.

I think Mr I paints an illustration where his helper isn't going to interfere with the project, but rather, understand the project that Mr I describes to him, and then make his his experience, knowledge and resources available to meet Mr I's description. This leaves Mr I to define the needs and the process required to meet the needs. It's entirely Mr I's vision. That pretty much captures the thing as I see it.

Understanding is really what it is all about isn't it?

Gem
19-10-2015, 07:15 AM
[quote]



People are often motivated with intention from where they are within, its the nature of the world being itself with what it has and knows. Even the "should do's" do because that is what they know and do. Until they know more of course.




Well sometimes I find its best to let go of everything in that moment and allow the unfolding to flow naturally through listening to the other. Listening to me is an ongoing flow of movement and understanding deeper through each moment shared. Being present and unattached allows for the person to be heard also without interference.
Yeppers.

I attended a day long workshop on being the observer yesterday. I noticed even as many participated with stories, needs, experiences, I just felt like I wanted to observe. So I did. It was relaxing and peaceful. I came away quite energised, which was nice. Some people obviously choose the workshop like this to let go to other observers to learn their own observing nature. And some go to practice their observing nature that they know to be. Well It seemed that way yesterday and other workshops I attend.
I think the observation and the action are simultaneous and not separate from each other.

As I mentioned listening is ongoing so naturally I often note the flow and changing as a whole host through it all. That way your not disregarding what is shared as a whole. Or interfering mid way, with yourself or your own stories. I find sometimes my story is pertinent to a situation but I always listen and discern anyway so when it occurs who am I too say. Its not something I think about, more allow through the process of the other. And even as it might pop up I will question it as to whether it is important to the whole and often it keeps popping up till I find the moment to let it in. I trust myself in this way though, not many do.
I tends to keep myself out of the situation but I become aware of myself becoming like an influence or an interference, as though it's me who is not accepting of it as it is, so I consciously quiet down and resume that neutral place where I can be part of what happens without having any control over it. It's that 'out of control' that brings up my anxiety along with the need to know what to do.


That makes sense.
If your comfortable in your own not knowing then I imagine you would naturally be able to support another to figure things out for themselves, so really again it comes back to being present without *need or desire* to change or make something occur but more allowing the connection to be as it is just through listening and movement of itself in that shared space. Well that is how I see it and like to move myself.
That's exactly what I mean.

I like to discern through the whole process, I don't like holding better than, judgment or need. I just listen and trust and discern. It works well for me.

Now that I have this observer self down pat through some conscious awareness of myself and practice yesterday, I am sure it will play a vital role in my own awareness around others.
Yep, I'm right into this conscious awareness of where I'm losing the presence, and staying 'with it'.

I like getting out of the way it works well.
Understanding is really what it is all about isn't it?
I think so. I know what its like to be in struggles knowing that no-one will ever understand it, but its enough to know that someone else actually understands that they can't really understand. Sometimes, understanding that I don't understand is the actual understanding itself.

naturesflow
19-10-2015, 11:40 AM
Sometimes, understanding that I don't understand is the actual understanding itself.

This is very true.

Lorelyen
20-10-2015, 11:04 AM
Not sure if I should say it but your background seems extraordinarily sound, enterprising and, like it or not, is independence (in matters of everyday life) so bad?

Somehow I seem to occupy some of the same ground. There are times when I'd love assistance, not just in carrying out tasks but in "being". I have a few friends around but I know myself to be autocratic and when I do receive assistance I get the feeling that autocracy comes into the team-up - that there's a hint of subservience - not something I want to cultivate. Autocracy tends to be about "know it all"; surely one needs to know enough and be good enough at what one is doing. It's something I'd love to deal with actually; something I've always set aside pro cras. I'm not even sure how I'd untrain myself or even how these traits manifest other than when I am in control.

Thankfully they don't impede my social life too much though they do creep in.

From the spiritual view I suppose I've been a lone worker for too long, since the early awakenings really. It wasn't all that long ago! but there was very little teaching or literature about, few people to turn to other than a couple of fellow-pupils so it was experimental.

None of this excludes people, people as spirits, as firmaments, as everyday friends. I don't feel closed at all though I proselytise finding ones path, that literature, teachings are just a launch pad.

But I suppose the autocracy still shows through in awareness of leading a spiritual life, balancing it with material existence, and that others have their own bag.

Perhaps I found Self too early and tend to rely on it, in which there's a danger - of thinking I'm there (which I'm not).

.....

Gem
20-10-2015, 11:15 AM
Not sure if I should say it but your background seems extraordinarily sound, enterprising and, like it or not, is independence (in matters of everyday life) so bad?

Somehow I seem to occupy some of the same ground. There are times when I'd love assistance, not just in carrying out tasks but in "being". I have a few friends around but I know myself to be autocratic and when I do receive assistance I get the feeling that autocracy comes into the team-up - that there's a hint of subservience - not something I want to cultivate, honestly! Autocracy tends to be about "know it all"; surely one needs to know enough and be good enough at it. It's something I'd love to deal with actually; something I've always set aside pro cras. I'm not even sure how I'd untrain myself or even how these traits manifest other than when I am in control.

Thankfully they don't impede my social life too much though they do creep in.

From the spiritual view I suppose I've been a lone worker for too long, since the early awakenings really. It wasn't all that long ago! but there was very little teaching or literature about, few people to turn to other than a couple of fellow-pupils so it was experimental.

None of this excludes people, people as spirits, as firmaments, as everyday friends. I don't feel closed at all though I proselytise finding ones path, that literature, teachings are just a launch pad.

But I suppose the autocracy still shows through in awareness of leading a spiritual life, balancing it with material existence, and that others have their own bag.

Perhaps I found Self too early and tend to rely on it, in which there's a danger - of thinking I'm there (which I'm not).

.....

Of course not. You're here.

Lorelyen
20-10-2015, 12:54 PM
Well I wuz.

Then I moved on now I'm back although I'm here not there which is a kind of virtual here, flying through the skies with gay abandon, as bursts of pulses in a transistorised paradise. You need very high vibrations to do that. It's in the realm where one second is a long time for those who count nanoseconds.

Here is like now in its way. moves wherever whenever....

(I'll tone down the vibrations a bit. They're so high that people think I'm out of focus)
------------------
And that's the way it is.....

Gem
21-10-2015, 06:02 AM
Well I wuz.

Then I moved on now I'm back although I'm here not there which is a kind of virtual here, flying through the skies with gay abandon, as bursts of pulses in a transistorised paradise. You need very high vibrations to do that. It's in the realm where one second is a long time for those who count nanoseconds.

Here is like now in its way. moves wherever whenever....

(I'll tone down the vibrations a bit. They're so high that people think I'm out of focus)
------------------
And that's the way it is.....


Yep, it's sorta virtual in the sense that time is not other than. We experience a sea of change in an instantaneous universe. The points than mark beginnings and ends, such as birth and death or the orbit around the sun, are arbitrary in the scheme of change. How do even say 'this is what is happening now?' Do we freeze frame it as an object we can identify, or has it changed within the moment of acknowledgment itself - as there is only change to be acknowledged?