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naturesflow
09-10-2015, 04:20 AM
Seriously all this talk about illusions of the mind, ego, animal side, when life is very real and happening all around you in everyway of this and always has been, just because you end your own suffering, doesn't mean the worlds suffering disappears..

So what is real now? And what is not real now?

And who is really awake?

We are the world.

Timeless
09-10-2015, 04:38 AM
Seriously all this talk about illusions of the mind, ego, animal side, when life is very real and happening all around you in everyway of this and always has been, just because you end your own suffering, doesn't mean the worlds suffering disappears..

So what is real now? And what is not real now?

And who is really awake?

We are the world.

What is real is all in your perception of things. If you believe that people are living in an illusion they are unaware of, that is what you'll see. But I heard a quote that went "Even illusion is an illusion." So don't let the idea of the illusion distract you from what's real.

What's real is the fact that we are all the same people. It might not seem like we are all one, but it is in fact true. We all come from the same source, and are all influenced by "mother culture." We all have this feeling of "I" and many of us feel immense loneliness.

The ones that are awake, are the ones who don't get caught up in the idea of the "illusion." They see things for what they are. Take experiences as they come and don't let thought distract them from their pure being.

Ego, is real. But it is really nothing at all. It plays no role at all. I guess it could be good at time, but is unimportant in terms of finding your inner space.

So, things are as real as you want to make them. But my advice is, take experience as it comes, and enjoy silence. Don't get too wrapped up in what's real and what's not. You will know your true space based on the amount of peace you have. Find your true space, and let things speak to you directly.

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 04:52 AM
[QUOTE=Timeless]What is real is all in your perception of things. If you believe that people are living in an illusion they are unaware of, that is what you'll see. But I heard a quote that went "Even illusion is an illusion." So don't let the idea of the illusion distract you from what's real.

Yes that is what I was getting at. Illusion is illusion itself. life is real as it is for me in everyway I guess.

What's real is the fact that we are all the same people. It might not seem like we are all one, but it is in fact true. We all come from the same source, and are all influenced by "mother culture." We all have this feeling of "I" and many of us feel immense loneliness.

I believe this too..We are one world in this together so nothing is left out in me in this view, as the world is, it is in me in some form of the world.

The ones that are awake, are the ones who don't get caught up in the idea of the "illusion." They see things for what they are. Take experiences as they come and don't let thought distract them from their pure being.

Seeing things as they are, is that being awake? Or is that just extending the view that you once couldn't see? Pure being, what is that?

Ego, is real. But it is really nothing at all. It plays no role at all. I guess it could be good at time, but is unimportant in terms of finding your inner space.

Ego? I never related to ego as something in myself, it never really entered my vocab at least. More it was about how I felt and conditioned beliefs, you could say, lack of seeing things more clearly for myself...through my own eyes and feelings.

So, things are as real as you want to make them. But my advice is, take experience as it comes, and enjoy silence. Don't get too wrapped up in what's real and what's not. You will know your true space based on the amount of peace you have. Find your true space, and let things speak to you directly.

I do all this, but I still have this niggling fear that something will come out of the dark and get me? Do you have this?

loopylucid
09-10-2015, 05:55 AM
https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_hoffman_do_we_see_reality_as_it_is this is quite interesting on the subject of reality :)

Loopy

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 06:28 AM
https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_hoffman_do_we_see_reality_as_it_is this is quite interesting on the subject of reality :)

Loopy

Conscious Realism...hmmm...


Thanks loopy I enjoyed this video.

God-Like
09-10-2015, 07:01 AM
So many perspectives had in regards to what is real and what is not . I like the understanding that there is only what you are .

There is the realization of that and to apply the real and the illusory card is secondary to the realization .

There is always context that has to be taken into consideration and what is real or illusory in comparison to what exactly?

Firstly one has to establish what is absolutely real in order to realize what is not and I can only suggest that individuals that realize what they are associate the realization to that which is real ...

But being that there is only what you are then perhaps it can be seen that everything is real ... I don't see that experiencing different forms and different realms to be any less what we are ..

It really depends on where one is at within themselves in relation to knowing / realizing what they are ..

x daz x

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 07:14 AM
[QUOTE=God-Like]So many perspectives had in regards to what is real and what is not . I like the understanding that there is only what you are .

What you are? but what about what another is? Like I am me, you are you so what part of you is real in the context of knowing myself real and not real. Waking up to yourself is one aspect of understanding, waking up to others as they present themselves is another, all the while knowing they are the sum of the whole I am, but may behave and act in ways that doesn't reflect their whole self.. So what then, where am I now?

There is the realization of that and to apply the real and the illusory card is secondary to the realization .

If you take out realization and illusionary cards, what is left?

There is always context that has to be taken into consideration and what is real or illusory in comparison to what exactly?

I don't buy into the illusionary tales, its all real to me as life and nature playing out of itself. I don't have to look far to see what is real playing out in the world, regardless of what I know to be in myself and others as a whole host that they may be unaware of or aware of.

Firstly one has to establish what is absolutely real in order to realize what is not and I can only suggest that individuals that realize what they are associate the realization to that which is real ...

Realization and real seem like two entirely different things to me?

But being that there is only what you are then perhaps it can be seen that everything is real ... I don't see that experiencing different forms and different realms to be any less what we are ..

This world is not just about me alone, when I engage and interact, I take myself into a world that is being itself in nature as it is?

It really depends on where one is at within themselves in relation to knowing / realizing what they are ..

This is not about knowing myself, I can know myself as I am in this moment, but more I am speaking more about knowing the reality of the world as it is (in a whole sense of being and potential unfolding of course ) and knowing this for real, and where I am in it, its one big world in me that I share space with. I mean lets face it, you don't have to be blind to how people behave and interact with the world through their own perceptions and feelings etc etc..

Thanks daz x

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 07:25 AM
Its all real, then its not real, then it's real again, then it's....?

Reality bubbles?

God-Like
09-10-2015, 07:33 AM
[QUOTE]

What you are? but what about what another is? Like I am me, you are you so what part of you is real in the context of knowing myself real and not real. Waking up to yourself is one aspect of understanding, waking up to others as they present themselves is another, all the while knowing they are the sum of the whole I am, but may behave and act in ways that doesn't reflect their whole self.. So what then, where am I now?



If you take out realization and illusionary cards, what is left?



I don't buy into the illusionary tales, its all real to me as life and nature playing out of itself. I don't have to look far to see what is real playing out in the world, regardless of what I know to be in myself and others as a whole host that they may be unaware of or aware of.



Realization and real seem like two entirely different things to me?


This world is not just about me alone, when I engage and interact, I take myself into a world that is being itself in nature as it is?


This is not about knowing myself, I can know myself as I am in this moment, but more I am speaking more about knowing the reality of the world as it is (in a whole sense of being and potential unfolding of course ) and knowing this for real, and where I am in it, its one big world in me that I share space with. I mean lets face it, you don't have to be blind to how people behave and interact with the world through their own perceptions and feelings etc etc..

Thanks daz x


What you are that is realised encompasses all there is . There is 'no other' in that respect . Knowing self is knowing what is realized (as much as one can interpret what that is) . One cannot know self without realizing what you are otherwise what is one knowing? . One is knowing what they think they are which can be associated with an illusion of sorts but at the time it is the real deal for there is no comparison .

The knowing of the reality of the world as you put it can only be known in relation to what you are that is in experience of it . If one doesn't know what they are then one cannot know their environment . It is that comparison I spoke of . What reality is real in comparison to what is real that is experiencing the reality .


x daz x

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 07:56 AM
What you are that is realised encompasses all there is . There is 'no other' in that respect .

If their is no other then as I interact with the world, I do not exist? But I do exist and so do you being you and me being me. Encompassing is nice in theory and realization, but ultimately the experience of life shows me that there are those in the world who are not functioning in the whole state, aside from how encompassed I may feel and know myself to be?

Knowing self is knowing what is realized (as much as one can interpret what that is) . One cannot know self without realizing what you are otherwise what is one knowing? . One is knowing what they think they are which can be associated with an illusion of sorts but at the time it is the real deal for there is no comparison .


I don't think I know myself, I just know myself, well in this moment of knowing I mean. Some things in myself remain with the ever changing flow of me in the world as one. Somethings change. So their is that kind of knowing I can know of myself and others too..I am not talking about knowing of the mind sense of knowing here. I am talking real facts of knowing. The facts and acts speak for themselves. (all the while knowing there is more of course) but that doesn't change what is, in this moment. SO that is very real and happening as life itself and people as they are..

The knowing of the reality of the world as you put it can only be known in relation to what you are that is in experience of it . If one doesn't know what they are then one cannot know their environment . It is that comparison I spoke of . What reality is real in comparison to what is real that is experiencing the reality .

I can know experiences without being that or in it. Life shows me this itself. I know myself and know my environment and it doesn't always match the greater reality as it is being. Meaning, my reality close to home is my reality but the greater reality is my home too, and when I step into that where am I then with all that knowing of my own reality? I am not using comparisons here, just real knowing of what is fact and the nature of reality as a whole reality playing out as it is. Its all playing out, happening as we type, all real..regardless of my experience and how I see it all close to home in myself and my close to home reality. When I step out I take my reality out to the world that is being itself where am I then? When I merge myself in this way what occurs for me in being myself? I am in the chaos of all life as itself, yet in knowing myself, who am I then and how does the greater reality affect that change of knowing in myself?

I suppose I am addressing a fear in me through this sharing. Nothing major but a lingering fear of knowing the greater reality, knowing my own, merging it all and trusting in the whole. But knowing reality as it is, is quite daunting in some ways of my reality and expanding myself. I wonder if this fear is not really fear but the awakening in myself of this conscious realism like Loopy's video brought to light in me.

God-Like
09-10-2015, 08:39 AM
If their is no other then as I interact with the world, I do not exist? But I do exist and so do you being you and me being me. Encompassing is nice in theory and realization, but ultimately the experience of life shows me that there are those in the world who are not functioning in the whole state, aside from how encompassed I may feel and know myself to be?



If you interact with this world and you are aware of doing so then that is what appears to be happening . What another realizes about what they are doesn't change a thing about what is realized . You can carry on doing what you are doing and so can I and it changes nothing about what you and I 'are' .


I don't think I know myself, I just know myself, well in this moment of knowing I mean. Some things in myself remain with the ever changing flow of me in the world as one. Somethings change. So their is that kind of knowing I can know of myself and others too..I am not talking about knowing of the mind sense of knowing here. I am talking real facts of knowing. The facts and acts speak for themselves. (all the while knowing there is more of course) but that doesn't change what is, in this moment. SO that is very real and happening as life itself and people as they are..

So you knowing yourself is in comparison to you not knowing . One can only do so in comparison . So what changed? You realized what you are right? How else can one know? This is why I said one must realize what they are in order to know anything else in relation to what is real be it their environment or whatever .




I can know experiences without being that or in it. Life shows me this itself. I know myself and know my environment and it doesn't always match the greater reality as it is being. Meaning, my reality close to home is my reality but the greater reality is my home too, and when I step into that where am I then with all that knowing of my own reality? I am not using comparisons here, just real knowing of what is fact and the nature of reality as a whole reality playing out as it is. Its all playing out, happening as we type, all real..regardless of my experience and how I see it all close to home in myself and my close to home reality. When I step out I take my reality out to the world that is being itself where am I then? When I merge myself in this way what occurs for me in being myself? I am in the chaos of all life as itself, yet in knowing myself, who am I then and how does the greater reality affect that change of knowing in myself?

I suppose I am addressing a fear in me through this sharing. Nothing major but a lingering fear of knowing the greater reality, knowing my own, merging it all and trusting in the whole. But knowing reality as it is, is quite daunting in some ways of my reality and expanding myself. I wonder if this fear is not really fear but the awakening in myself of this conscious realism like Loopy's video brought to light in me.


You seem to be comparing realities regarding 'close to home' reality and the 'greater' reality in order to say you are not using comparisons lols :biggrin: . One has to compare like for like or not like for like somewhere down the line . Knowing what you are or knowing self is based upon comparing what you thought you are, to realizing what you are beyond thought . Until one has realized what they are beyond thought or mind one cannot know self in relation to that when being in experience of a reality .

If one bases their 'knowing self' upon only 'knowing self' then self is all they are knowing .

x daz x

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 09:01 AM
If you interact with this world and you are aware of doing so then that is what appears to be happening . What another realizes about what they are doesn't change a thing about what is realized . You can carry on doing what you are doing and so can I and it changes nothing about what you and I 'are' .


So you knowing yourself is in comparison to you not knowing . One can only do so in comparison . So what changed? You realized what you are right? How else can one know? This is why I said one must realize what they are in order to know anything else in relation to what is real be it their environment or whatever .






[QUOTE]You seem to be comparing realities regarding 'close to home' reality and the 'greater' reality in order to say you are not using comparisons lols :biggrin: .


Well yes it could be perceived in this way, but facts are facts I can know my reality and what is playing out outside of me as a separate source of creation, even though within me I know its all one source playing out its individual expression..

One has to compare like for like or not like for like somewhere down the line . Knowing what you are or knowing self is based upon comparing what you thought you are, to realizing what you are beyond thought .

True you can compare in yourself where you have been and where you feel you are at in yourself.


Until one has realized what they are beyond thought or mind one cannot know self in relation to that when being in experience of a reality .


So if for example I know that cold blooded murders exist, is that all in my mind? (And as you and I both know I could give you endless examples of real life happenings in every way of life) This Is a fact? Daz I am being real here..:biggrin: How do you make the cold blooded murderer in you not real daz? Just because I can enter into nirvana in me, and not entertain thoughts of that kind of existence, it doesn't go away, its all still real and happening?

If one bases their 'knowing self' upon only 'knowing self' then self is all they are knowing .

I am basing my knowing self upon the knowing of the greater world, and finding where I fit in trust of all knowing what I know...(REAL LIFE KNOWING)my real self seeing reality being real as it is silly..:D

God-Like
09-10-2015, 10:35 AM
Well yes it could be perceived in this way, but facts are facts I can know my reality and what is playing out outside of me as a separate source of creation, even though within me I know its all one source playing out its individual expression..




And there is yet another comparison made between a reality of separation and a reality of 'one' . We just can't be of the mind without relating to them and one can't know one without the other .




So if for example I know that cold blooded murders exist, is that all in my mind? (And as you and I both know I could give you endless examples of real life happenings in every way of life) This Is a fact? Daz I am being real here..:biggrin: How do you make the cold blooded murderer in you not real daz? Just because I can enter into nirvana in me, and not entertain thoughts of that kind of existence, it doesn't go away, its all still real and happening?



Depends on one's understanding of what you are / mind / reality / real / illusion . We can only say it as we see it on any account . In my eyes there are many different levels at play, the murderer did take the life of another . In one respect this is a fact, in another respect no one can take the life of life or of another . What is real depends on it's context as said in my first post . When we speak of the realization of what we are, what is real or what is not won't enter the equation so when we entertain such concepts in our every day life experience we can only go by how anything applies to us and effects us in a particular environment in a particular moment .

When the goal posts move so does one's perspective .

So what does that say about what is a fact or what is real or not?


x daz x

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 12:27 PM
And there is yet another comparison made between a reality of separation and a reality of 'one' . We just can't be of the mind without relating to them and one can't know one without the other .






Depends on one's understanding of what you are / mind / reality / real / illusion . We can only say it as we see it on any account . In my eyes there are many different levels at play, the murderer did take the life of another . In one respect this is a fact, in another respect no one can take the life of life or of another . What is real depends on it's context as said in my first post . When we speak of the realization of what we are, what is real or what is not won't enter the equation so when we entertain such concepts in our every day life experience we can only go by how anything applies to us and effects us in a particular environment in a particular moment .

When the goal posts move so does one's perspective .

[QUOTE]So what does that say about what is a fact or what is real or not?


That you don't get it?:wink: Your in perspective, I am not in that space perceiving this through some kind of filter or reality that needs shifting or changing perception. More looking at the hard cold facts in the big wide world as they are. You can talk about perceptions and mind matters, ego, realizations, awareness and all that jazzy spiritual knowing stuff, but that doesn't change what is occurring in the real world.

God-Like
09-10-2015, 12:49 PM
That you don't get it?:wink: Your in perspective, I am not in that space perceiving this through some kind of filter or reality that needs shifting or changing perception. More looking at the hard cold facts in the big wide world as they are. You can talk about perceptions and mind matters, ego, realizations, awareness and all that jazzy spiritual knowing stuff, but that doesn't change what is occurring in the real world.

Your perspective is there just as anyone else's is . Can you not see that?

Your hard cold facts are based upon how you see things and your perspective is a reflection of that .

The real world is how you see it based upon what you know to be unreal .

Your idea of a real world maybe nothing more than a dream to another .


x daz x

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 01:09 PM
Your perspective is there just as anyone else's is . Can you not see that?



Your hard cold facts are based upon how you see things and your perspective is a reflection of that .

The real world is how you see it based upon what you know to be unreal .

Your idea of a real world maybe nothing more than a dream to another .


x daz x

.So when you walk around your world each day, and for example you see two people in an altercation, meaning they are shouting and yelling in each others faces. One man in that altercation hits the other man over the head with a bottle on the pavement in front of you, that is direct seeing. It is occurring even if you are only present and observing, and not interpreting or intervening. Just standing there present with it, that is real. Two people creating an experience right before your eyes for all the world to see including you. Nothing changes that moment of occurrence. It is what it is. Unless of course, you close your eyes and look the other way. Pretend you cant see it. Or block your ears and hide behind a bush till it all goes away. I am talking that real. My perception if only my eyes are seeing what is, doesn't make it cold hard facts, it's occurring as experience makes it so. OF course if I start interpreting it into something more than what is occurring, yes I am perceiving more than what is. But as it unfolds it is making itself known, because of two other people's creation and experience and I am witnessing it. That's it!

So when you say my real world might be a dream for another, I am saying that even if it is, this is a fact of life and no amount of saying it is a dream makes vanish or not be real... ... It is all one big world regardless, created by every one too in their way as part of the ONE world.

The real world is how I see based upon what I know to be real, not unreal.

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 01:13 PM
////////////////////////

God-Like
09-10-2015, 01:45 PM
.So when you walk around your world each day, and for example you see two people in an altercation, meaning they are shouting and yelling in each others faces. One man in that altercation hits the other man over the head with a bottle on the pavement in front of you, that is direct seeing. It is occurring even if you are only present and observing, and not interpreting or intervening. Just standing there present with it, that is real. Two people creating an experience right before your eyes for all the world to see including you. Nothing changes that moment of occurrence. It is what it is. Unless of course, you close your eyes and look the other way. Pretend you cant see it. Or block your ears and hide behind a bush till it all goes away. I am talking that real. My perception if only my eyes are seeing what is, doesn't make it cold hard facts, it's occurring as experience makes it so. OF course if I start interpreting it into something more than what is occurring, yes I am perceiving more than what is. But as it unfolds it is making itself known, because of two other people's creation and experience and I am witnessing it. That's it!

So when you say my real world might be a dream for another, I am saying that even if it is, this is a fact of life and no amount of saying it is a dream makes vanish or not be real... ... It is all one big world regardless, created by every one too in their way as part of the ONE world.

The real world is how I see based upon what I know to be real, not unreal.


I have said that in regards to speaking of what is real or not we have to put it into some kind of context .

I have said already that in one respect the murderer did indeed take another's life, but when the goal posts move and we see the same thing from a different vantage point then one know's that life cannot end, life cannot be taken, there is no other .

Cold hard facts are in context and are related to how the individual see's things .

If we base the whole reality thing around the physical realm and witnessing a man being bottled over the head then we will be in agreement that it happened .

but as you have stated 'even as you might not know in your dream, it is occurring as part of your dream without knowing' it does leave the door open for one to not know what is real even when it appears to be so .

This is the whole comparison thang I was speaking of, for one must realize what is absolutely real to know what is a dream or an illusion and I think that what is absolutely real is a red herring of the mind because the realization of what you are is beyond mind .

x daz x

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 02:15 PM
I have said that in regards to speaking of what is real or not we have to put it into some kind of context .

I have said already that in one respect the murderer did indeed take another's life, but when the goal posts move and we see the same thing from a different vantage point then one know's that life cannot end, life cannot be taken, there is no other .

Cold hard facts are in context and are related to how the individual see's things .

If we base the whole reality thing around the physical realm and witnessing a man being bottled over the head then we will be in agreement that it happened .

but as you have stated 'even as you might not know in your dream, it is occurring as part of your dream without knowing' it does leave the door open for one to not know what is real even when it appears to be so .

This is the whole comparison thang I was speaking of, for one must realize what is absolutely real to know what is a dream or an illusion and I think that what is absolutely real is a red herring of the mind because the realization of what you are is beyond mind .

x daz x



no no no no no....get out of your head man..lol..:tongue:

God-Like
09-10-2015, 02:39 PM
no no no no no....get out of your head man..lol..:tongue:


... ... I will if you will :tongue:


x daz x

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 03:34 PM
Poor you godlike. Your 'spirituality' seems to have left you utterly confused in many forms, ways and things and a bit callous. I do feel for the conflict in your head that so seems to require you to use the strongest of denial defences...hope it eases soon.

Lorelyen
09-10-2015, 06:12 PM
Seriously all this talk about illusions of the mind, ego, animal side, when life is very real and happening all around you in everyway of this and always has been, just because you end your own suffering, doesn't mean the worlds suffering disappears..

So what is real now? And what is not real now?

And who is really awake?

We are the world.

You have it dead on. To me, what is real and not only matters in context. I've long given up trying to find out what reality is, concluding it doesn't really matter. I have to live my life until my time here is up and manipulate what my senses take in - or think they take in - to get through it. Illusion to me is misplaced faith about "what's out there" or falsifying belief about perceptions which misaligns what's out there with what's in here.

One of the better spiritual insights I received was that "what reality is doesn't matter. Living is about how I get through it."
...

God-Like
09-10-2015, 06:36 PM
Poor you godlike. Your 'spirituality' seems to have left you utterly confused in many forms, ways and things and a bit callous. I do feel for the conflict in your head that so seems to require you to use the strongest of denial defences...hope it eases soon.

In what way am I confused or in denial ...

x daz x

Lucyan28
09-10-2015, 06:39 PM
Hi Nature, how you doing?

Everything is real but at the same time everything is an illusion. When we're perceiving the reality we "twist it" with our thoughts, emotions, personality, human condition, etc etc etc and hence it becomes an illusion, but the real thing "out there" is still out there in its own reality, even though there is a study that says that the outside things only exist if there is an observer perceiving it, otherwise they don't exist, how crazy this is, isn't it? Love it...

For example:

You can see a green apple with your eyes-mind, but what if I see a red one? Then the both of us are creating an illusion of the real apple.

It's a magnificent paradox :D

So in few words, I really don't know the answers to the questions.

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 06:43 PM
In what way am I confused or in denial ...

x daz x

...that way

God-Like
09-10-2015, 06:46 PM
...that way

You are going to have to elaborate and pay me the courtesy of spelling it out ..

x daz x

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 06:46 PM
Hi Nature, how you doing?

Everything is real but at the same time everything is an illusion. When we're perceiving the reality we "twist it" with our thoughts, emotions, personality, human condition, etc etc etc and hence it becomes an illusion, but the real thing "out there" is still out there in its own reality, even though there is a study that says that the outside things only exist if there is an observer perceiving it, otherwise they don't exist, how crazy this is, isn't it? Love it...

For example:

You can see a green apple with your eyes-mind, but what if I see a red one? Then the both of us are creating an illusion of the real apple.

It's a magnificent paradox :D

So in few words, I really don't know the answer to the questions.

What is the 'untwisted' reality then lucyan? (Leave out crazy paradoxes then).

Lucyan28
09-10-2015, 06:47 PM
What is the 'untwisted' reality then lucyan? (Leave out crazy paradoxes then).

It might be the famous Truth, which I kinda ignore of course; but I might know it, who knows :confused:

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 06:47 PM
You are going to have to elaborate and pay me the courtesy of spelling it out ..

x daz x

That would mean reposting the entire thread up until this point. Not really necesary isnt it?

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 06:49 PM
It might be the famous Truth, which I kinda ignore of course but I might know it, who knows :confused:

If you stop 'ignoring' then, you will know what you know, wont you?

God-Like
09-10-2015, 06:52 PM
That would mean reposting the entire thread up until this point. Not really necesary isnt it?


All you need to do is point out a few things that you feel I am confused and in denial of . You obviously felt the need to point this out, surely you can elaborate . I got the feeling that you don't know what I have been talking about .


x daz x

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 07:18 PM
Honestly. You would know i am being honest when i say it would require copying the entire thread. Normally i tend to give more detail, than might be required or one might want to be pointed to (happens to be the main reason i get into trouble for, not that it bothers me), to explain my comment...i would have done here too if i could pick exceptions that made sense as a whole, even if only to say, okay, these are excluded, the rest i think is confusing and comes across as a bit callous.

Well lets put it this way, although on its own each line makes sense, together, they are in conflict in themselves. No amount of pointing it out by another will make it any better, except when, may be, if you point it out to yourself.

If your posts were to be kind of projected into reality, the one who woukd hold similar beleifs as you have posted is either a saint with absolutely no posessions to attach to in the material sense or of the mind; or is confident about being coccooned forever from the real world effecting the individual in any sense or form, as in the opposite sense of being a saint as mentioned earlier.

It could also be just that i dont agree with the 'whole' picture you present in your posts in response to the threads question, in which case, you will know it to be so for sure.

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 07:21 PM
All you need to do is point out a few things that you feel I am confused and in denial of . You obviously felt the need to point this out, surely you can elaborate . I got the feeling that you don't know what I have been talking about .


x daz x

In that case, ignore my comment, for i think i totally understand what you are talking about. I would have asked otherwise.

Mr Interesting
09-10-2015, 07:23 PM
What is real and what isn't... no idea.

I had a really quite good motorcycle accident when I was 17 or so and I haven't really know since then whether I died and have been dreaming ever since or I'm still alive and was just out for a wee bit. And so it doesn't really matter because what's in front of me is in front of me.

Now I'm going to go and do some work... I've been getting better at actually getting things done recently and it's more fun than being here so see ya'll laters.

Lucyan28
09-10-2015, 07:52 PM
What is real and what isn't... no idea.

I had a really quite good motorcycle accident when I was 17 or so and I haven't really know since then whether I died and have been dreaming ever since or I'm still alive and was just out for a wee bit. And so it doesn't really matter because what's in front of me is in front of me.

Now I'm going to go and do some work... I've been getting better at actually getting things done recently and it's more fun than being here so see ya'll laters.

Hi Mr. Interesting, I can relate with this, sometimes I don't know if I diededed in another dimension and appeared here :rolleyes: but no matter we're here crying, dreaming, loving, eating, drinking, learning and sexying :D

Sometimes dreams and the astral projections seems so much real than this 3d world,

Ivy
09-10-2015, 08:23 PM
Seriously all this talk about illusions of the mind, ego, animal side, when life is very real and happening all around you in everyway of this and always has been, just because you end your own suffering, doesn't mean the worlds suffering disappears..

So what is real now? And what is not real now?

And who is really awake?

We are the world.

I sussed out physical facts, perceptions and reflections and care to accept responsibility with regards to that understanding.

But I don't relate to concepts of real or not real - it doesn't seem to matter.

It's a valuable question to ask, and the way you've put it is fab.

naturesflow
10-10-2015, 09:43 AM
Hi Nature, how you doing?

[QUOTE]Everything is real but at the same time everything is an illusion. When we're perceiving the reality we "twist it" with our thoughts, emotions, personality, human condition, etc etc etc and hence it becomes an illusion, but the real thing "out there" is still out there in its own reality, even though there is a study that says that the outside things only exist if there is an observer perceiving it, otherwise they don't exist, how crazy this is, isn't it? Love it...

Hello Lucyan. Thanks for sharing. I suppose I was talking about when we don't twist anything just observe what is there playing out. You see? Even if your not observing, or living on the other side of the world and know nothing about what is happening on this side, it still exists, the world is playing out all around us regardless of what kind of inward reflection and awareness we wish to see ourselves as or perceiving it through. Its all real happenings. If your someone who says, oh my ego is making that man who is hitting the other man over the head with a bottle, into something that is not real, my observer self says that is just an illusion, so it doesn't exist.. who is not being real then?

For example:

You can see a green apple with your eyes-mind, but what if I see a red one? Then the both of us are creating an illusion of the real apple.


If you and I were both standing on the sidewalk looking at one man hitting another man over the head with a bottle, both shouting and screaming in each others faces, would you use this as an example to determine the facts of what is playing out in front of us both? You only need eyes to see the facts, not really perceiving colours and shapes and what they smell like in the process of what is actually occurring, unless of course you want to make it that way.

God-Like
10-10-2015, 01:37 PM
If your posts were to be kind of projected into reality, the one who woukd hold similar beleifs as you have posted is either a saint with absolutely no posessions to attach to in the material sense or of the mind; or is confident about being coccooned forever from the real world effecting the individual in any sense or form, as in the opposite sense of being a saint as mentioned earlier.



So based upon what you posted above you don't actually know where I am coming from .

My so called confusion and denial is solely based upon what you don't know about me .


x daz x

lifensoul
10-10-2015, 02:08 PM
Doesnt matter what its based on, i was only attempting to reason your poor state of mind, as you presented it. My assumptions were just that.

The confusion, denial and bit of callousness you projected were not based on my assumptions but the other way round.

But yes, it would be good to understand where such a state of mind projects from....which of the excuses i created on your behalf was right? Neither? Both? How then such wisdom was intent on leading the reader into tangling the question into a deeper mess than addressing it? A well articulated one at that too and quite deep, but just to serve the opposite purpose as that posed by the question in op?

Ofcourse, god like, you have no reason to explain, just like i have no reason to assume about you or comment on what you say.

I think the op'r forgot to place tge basic criteria before someone answered - do you live in the real world, are you part of the majority of reality due to having to face it for your needs etc in your daily life and such.

Like for example (i hope he wont mind my using his posts as an example), lucyan made it clear he is mostly interested in sex as he could perhaps be from an other dimension (i could be wrong with this way of looking at his word and highlights), so he doesnt give a damn about any reality or any other such junk and will do whatever is necessary to 'coccoon' himself from it for a trillion possible reasons (in his own mind if not in the opposite sense of the saint i described to you) - twist reality into a more tangled mess than it already is in his mind to make sure he then has an excuse to say reality is too confusing, silly, a paradox and so on or even as much shut himself to it by blatantly ignoring whats obvious to tell himself it isnt obvious. Thereby excused himself from the burden of reality and placed himself in the latter group of people i proposed for you. The point here being at least he is honest about himself rather than projecting his own defenses onto others or even go as far as challenging another to accept his style of burying his head into sand.

God-Like
10-10-2015, 06:39 PM
Doesnt matter what its based on, i was only attempting to reason your poor state of mind, as you presented it. My assumptions were just that.

The confusion, denial and bit of callousness you projected were not based on my assumptions but the other way round.



It does matter as you clearly pointed out I was confused and in denial about what I said and how I see things .

The confusion and denial is not something I have projected at all, it is just your assumption based upon how you related to my posts .

My supposed poor state of mind is your assumption also .

I am neither confused or in denial regarding anything that I posted in relation to the thread about what is real .

To know what is real has to be in context and in relation to how one perceives themselves .

x daz x

lifensoul
10-10-2015, 07:19 PM
Okay, what exactly do you want me to say/do? Take on your projections as my own? Or say exactly what you would want me to say? You see, according to you, only you matter and the rest is merely an illusion, so, i cant accept your charecteristics as my own, nor simply be your reflection, at ay stage of your spiritual development. in addition, according to your view, applied to myself, only i exist and you dont (hold onto something if you are standing, it might not suit you to know you godlike in your entirity is just an illusion). Its upto you if you bear your burdens or not. But, given that you are wrong and i do exist, alongside you, just as important as you, i couldnt not notice that which i did, its just so obvious, you would have known if you saw it from anothers pov, but obviously again, thats impossible in your mind as there is no other, it all revoles around the great ' godlike'.

So, allow me the pleasure to practice following your teachings here upon you only and treat you (not myself) as you intend to treat others. Ahh in case you suggest you perceive yourself as an illusion only and not as you, then nothing you say can be regarded real either...so i guess you are saying everything you say be disregarded too. Okay. Will be done. I hope i will someday have pleasure to practice your teaching of 'callousness' upon you too, if the circumstance ever arises, please, do not forget to share it here...it would be an honor to do you the honor, god like.

lemex
10-10-2015, 07:38 PM
What is real is all in your perception of things. If you believe that people are living in an illusion they are unaware of, that is what you'll see. But I heard a quote that went "Even illusion is an illusion." So don't let the idea of the illusion distract you from what's real.




Perception in the mind is subjective. For instance, the sun is real. The sun is input (matter) and seen in the brain (mind), what is in the mind, energy not matter, is not real but an image. Image are subjects, matter is not. The sun is real for instance and without it being you would die, this is the reality. The image or subject in the mind is not reality because it does not matter if it is there or not, therefore not even needed. Because of all the dialogue I'm wondering is what is real not really that but what we want to be. Knows this is not a classic definition. We have an outer state of reality and an inner state about reality.

Lorelyen
10-10-2015, 08:13 PM
What is the 'untwisted' reality then lucyan? (Leave out crazy paradoxes then).

What is actually out there, if there is anything at all.

::::

naturesflow
10-10-2015, 10:39 PM
What is actually out there, if there is anything at all.

::::

Creation/Reality/nature being itself as it is, however it is. So even as I am, it doesn't change what you are being and doing and the rest of the world in this way. It's all playing out as itself in everyway of itself. Just because I am creating it to be a certain way, doesn't mean that what another is creating it to be as something else doesn't exist. What is created/put out into the world as formation of itself in that creation, is very real in everyway of itself, in every way of creation.

So for instance when godlike meets Lifensoul on the street observing the nature of reality playing out, as in the example I gave, with the two guys battling and beating each other up, are they going to stand their and talk about their mindset and perceptions, awareness or ego or actually act and do something to intervene into that situation for real. :wink:

When it all comes down to it, everything that you think, become aware of, is serving you to move in the world to meet it for real, now that is a wake up call to reality aint it, all that illusionary stuff suddenly becomes very real in the context of reality as it is....hehehe

no1wakesup
10-10-2015, 11:12 PM
This illusion is a façade because it only exists within a dual experience and conditioning of reality, and so the truth from this same conditioning is a façade as well. There is no truth and illusions, only an idea of that confirmed by a life time of conditioning

There is a state beyond that which simply is as it is (aka, at rest )... as well as an expression and expansion of that same state into a conceptual world. And all it seems to be doing, all the time, is to shift from this pure consciousness, to a subjective awareness, in order to know an objective world. It is a perpetual expansion and contraction. A constant moving between emptiness and fulfilment going from the authentic and original truth to a world of opposites. In the world of opposites, most sleep and are unaware of what their true state IS. In the state which is as it is, no one is there to care or contemplate truth or illusion

naturesflow
10-10-2015, 11:19 PM
This illusion is a façade because it only exists within a dual experience and conditioning of reality, and so the truth from this same conditioning is a façade as well. There is no truth and illusions, only an idea of that confirmed by a life time of conditioning

There is a state beyond that which simply is as it is (aka, at rest )... as well as an expression and expansion of that same state into a conceptual world. And all it seems to be doing, all the time, is to shift from this pure consciousness, to a subjective awareness, in order to know an objective world. It is a perpetual expansion and contraction. A constant moving between emptiness and fulfilment going from the authentic and original truth to a world of opposites. In the world of opposites, most sleep and are unaware of what their true state IS. In the state which is as it is, no one is there to care or contemplate truth or illusion

This is good.

God-Like
11-10-2015, 10:35 AM
Okay, what exactly do you want me to say/do? Take on your projections as my own? Or say exactly what you would want me to say? You see, according to you, only you matter and the rest is merely an illusion, so, i cant accept your charecteristics as my own, nor simply be your reflection, at ay stage of your spiritual development. in addition, according to your view, applied to myself, only i exist and you dont (hold onto something if you are standing, it might not suit you to know you godlike in your entirity is just an illusion). Its upto you if you bear your burdens or not. But, given that you are wrong and i do exist, alongside you, just as important as you, i couldnt not notice that which i did, its just so obvious, you would have known if you saw it from anothers pov, but obviously again, thats impossible in your mind as there is no other, it all revoles around the great ' godlike'.

So, allow me the pleasure to practice following your teachings here upon you only and treat you (not myself) as you intend to treat others. Ahh in case you suggest you perceive yourself as an illusion only and not as you, then nothing you say can be regarded real either...so i guess you are saying everything you say be disregarded too. Okay. Will be done. I hope i will someday have pleasure to practice your teaching of 'callousness' upon you too, if the circumstance ever arises, please, do not forget to share it here...it would be an honor to do you the honor, god like.


All I want you to say was what I wanted you to say in the first instance and that was to elaborate why my state of mind is poor and why I am confused and in denial .

I am not sure how you have concluded that only I matter and the rest is merely an illusion . Based upon this alone tells me you don't understand what I have posted . I have based my posts upon what is real and what is illusory around context and how one perceives themselves .

I have not also suggested that according to my view, applied to myself, only i exist and you don't so yet again you have not understood what my line of thoughts contain .

When you say 'I hope i will someday have pleasure to practice your teaching of 'callousness' upon you too is absolutely farcical for it was you that spoke of my poor mind state and that I was confused and in denial when we have never conversed before . You have not even understood my posts .

Show me where in my posts upon this subject has been in expression of 'callousness' .. All I have done is ask for clarification based upon your aspersions directed towards me .

I think that is totally acceptable to ask how you have come to such conclusions is it not?


x daz x

Lorelyen
11-10-2015, 10:47 AM
Creation/Reality/nature being itself as it is, however it is. So even as I am, it doesn't change what you are being and doing and the rest of the world in this way. It's all playing out as itself in everyway of itself. Just because I am creating it to be a certain way, doesn't mean that what another is creating it to be as something else doesn't exist. What is created/put out into the world as formation of itself in that creation, is very real in everyway of itself, in every way of creation.
....
When it all comes down to it, everything that you think, become aware of, is serving you to move in the world to meet it for real, now that is a wake up call to reality aint it, all that illusionary stuff suddenly becomes very real in the context of reality as it is....hehehe

Agree.... (wow, look at that)!

I'm told that out there is just a cloud of electrical charges bound together in various ways...and my senses manage to make all this lot out of it - so the reality is inside me. But we all coexist, we establish symbols that allow us to talk of reality (or in this age are told what those symbols are) no matter if our experiences of them are wildly different. We recognise them - that's the point.

Hence, to me it doesn't matter what reality is. My current status is "alive" according to the vernacular, a state that will persist for perhaps a while yet, in which case I have choices, one of which is to work my way through it - hence whatever is out there which is made into what's within, I have to manipulate.

In many ways the philosophical issues of life and reality are spiritual red herrings because in the final analysis they don't matter.

And now....I shall buzz off and be spiritual for a few moments. I always drink coffee while being spiritual.

:smile:
....

naturesflow
11-10-2015, 11:01 AM
[QUOTE=Lorelyen]Agree.... (wow, look at that)!


God I near fell off my computer chair reading that response..:wink:

I'm told that out there is just a cloud of electrical charges bound together in various ways...and my senses manage to make all this lot out of it - so the reality is inside me. But we all coexist, we establish symbols that allow us to talk of reality (or in this age are told what those symbols are) no matter if our experiences of them are wildly different. We recognise them - that's the point.

Uhuh..I agree...(wow, look at that, say cheers to the computer screen with your coffee in hand to me after reading this)

Hence, to me it doesn't matter what reality is. My current status is "alive" according to the vernacular, a state that will persist for perhaps a while yet, in which case I have choices, one of which is to work my way through it - hence whatever is out there which is made into what's within, I have to manipulate.

Yes good point, alive and life is happening as one big source. Your a manipulator? Good heavens I near fell off my chair again..

In many ways the philosophical issues of life and reality are spiritual red herrings because in the final analysis they don't matter.

Yes what mattered like two seconds ago has since packed up and left and now this second is here, is what matters...life being itself... hang on, let me think, what happened two second ago. I know, I near fell off my chair, but that doesn't matter...

And now....I shall buzz off and be spiritual for a few moments. I always drink coffee while being spiritual.

Flying in and out. Reminds me of a conversation with a friend today in Flow rida.(florida if you cant speak flow rida speak).asking out loud why flies don't die when they hit windows but the birds always do? anyway that was long time ago, it don't matter..Coffee, hmmm, haven't had one today, I been good. :D

For you seeing you like to catch up on things on your flight path..

Lorelyn, because your always flying in and out with coffee, here you can read this as your morning entertainment for the day..

Flow rida-Why is it that when flies run into the window at full force they don't die on impact and birds do?
What a great tragedy?
Me-Flies actually wear little mini barbutes for this very reason, didn't you know this?
Flow-I can actually hear their heads greet their asses and their asses great their heads when they smack into the glass.
Me-Which means they have a full suit of armour ...it is a wonder they dont die inside their armour if that is the case?
Flow-Actually, they sound like a small sausage, but I know it's a lump of poo
Me- I suddenly feel a little squirmish now

Flow didn't respond, I am sure he was guzzling his coffee down thinking yay I made her feel sick..

Me-I exaggerated the last bit.

lifensoul
11-10-2015, 11:27 AM
All I want you to say was what I wanted you to say in the first instance and that was to elaborate why my state of mind is poor and why I am confused and in denial .

I am not sure how you have concluded that only I matter and the rest is merely an illusion . Based upon this alone tells me you don't understand what I have posted . I have based my posts upon what is real and what is illusory around context and how one perceives themselves .

I have not also suggested that according to my view, applied to myself, only i exist and you don't so yet again you have not understood what my line of thoughts contain .

When you say 'I hope i will someday have pleasure to practice your teaching of 'callousness' upon you too is absolutely farcical for it was you that spoke of my poor mind state and that I was confused and in denial when we have never conversed before . You have not even understood my posts .

Show me where in my posts upon this subject has been in expression of 'callousness' .. All I have done is ask for clarification based upon your aspersions directed towards me .

I think that is totally acceptable to ask how you have come to such conclusions is it not?


x daz x

Note to myself -

Remember. Remember. Godlike explicitly stated how he would like to viewed and treated. Respect his wishes.

God-Like
11-10-2015, 11:46 AM
Note to myself -

Remember. Remember. Godlike explicitly stated how he would like to viewed and treated. Respect his wishes.

You and anyone else can view me as they wish, but if you want to tell me I am of a poor mind state and I am confused and in denial then please pay me the courtesy of pointing out why this is so . The fact that you haven't and you actually can't, speaks volumes of your mind state and not mine .

After asking you several times and after pointing out to you that you have obviously not understood my line of thinking you still haven't made any headway in regards to paying me the courtesy .

The poor mind state and the confusion and denial and the callousness expression doesn't seem to be at my doorstep does it .

Your original post to me was disrespectful without any foundation .

x daz x

naturesflow
11-10-2015, 11:55 AM
You and anyone else can view me as they wish, but if you want to tell me I am of a poor mind state and I am confused and in denial then please pay me the courtesy of pointing out why this is so . The fact that you haven't and you actually can't, speaks volumes of your mind state and not mine .

After asking you several times and after pointing out to you that you have obviously not understood my line of thinking you still haven't made any headway in regards to paying me the courtesy .

The poor mind state and the confusion and denial and the callousness expression doesn't seem to be at my doorstep does it .

Your original post to me was disrespectful without any foundation .

x daz x

You know when someone is outside looking into two people moving through conversation respectfully as you and I were, then suddenly they intervene in seeing what is wrong in their view of one of those people, sometimes what they see and feel lands in the thread in a way where it does come across kind of like how should we put this..Kind of abrupt and direct, because they see something your not seeing. So because your not seeing this, they then turn the feelings they have onto you, with how that feel, in ways where your then made to look like your trying to manipulate, not wanting to see the truth, or understand, the situation in some way. When in fact I didn't feel anything of the sort walking with you through our initial conversation even as I knew we were not seeing each others view in its entirety..

I felt the feelings expressed by lifensoul in that first post that was made and I felt they were indirectly being expressed at you as you being the source of their feelings in those words shared by lifensoul.

lifensoul
11-10-2015, 12:00 PM
Godlike. It seems you are a busy person. I am not! On top of it, i am the epitome of madness in this perfectly 'unmad' world. So, do yourself a favor and stop wasting your time asking me for the obvious. i can carry on forever while you attempt to fight off the obvious through me, labelling me as the source, instead, or simply fight into being buried deeper. Or simply have faith that when you are truly willing to consider the answers to your questions, it will be as obvious to you too through your own self and not through another.

lifensoul
11-10-2015, 12:03 PM
..........

God-Like
11-10-2015, 01:50 PM
You know when someone is outside looking into two people moving through conversation respectfully as you and I were, then suddenly they intervene in seeing what is wrong in their view of one of those people, sometimes what they see and feel lands in the thread in a way where it does come across kind of like how should we put this..Kind of abrupt and direct, because they see something your not seeing. So because your not seeing this, they then turn the feelings they have onto you, with how that feel, in ways where your then made to look like your trying to manipulate, not wanting to see the truth, or understand, the situation in some way. When in fact I didn't feel anything of the sort walking with you through our initial conversation even as I knew we were not seeing each others view in its entirety..

I felt the feelings expressed by lifensoul in that first post that was made and I felt they were indirectly being expressed at you as you being the source of their feelings in those words shared by lifensoul.
I agree that our conversation even though coming from different perspectives was not disrespectful in the slightest, it was just two different perspectives coming to light . These different perspectives illustrate that what is real is exactly that, different perspectives based on where another individual is coming from .

I don't know what's going on with Lifensoul and why such a disrespectful post was made in the first instance without having any previous communications .

Some individuals just like to take their own unhappiness out on others through their own expression .

There really was no need based upon my understandings to suggest such things, the only need apparently was for Lifensoul to get something off their chest .

That's all well and good until someone like me stops them and asks them why they are taking their stuff out on me ..

As illustrated Lifensoul after half a dozen posts still hasn't given an answer that justifies their disrespectful statement ..


x daz x

lifensoul
11-10-2015, 03:21 PM
I know babe, its tough, but remember god like made it clear he is an illusion. He taight you a important lesson that only i exist and he doesnt. Its okay, remember, he said, in his lesson he taught me, that anothers emotions, in this case godlikes, and anothers life means nothing as it merely is an illusion. Tell him, the illusory godlike, that the god who created me, and my parents and each who nourished and nurtured me wouldnt accept his treating me or my entire life or a single moment in it as an illusion and that it really doesnt exist or even compare it to his own using his spiritual positioning as an excuse....so, unfortunately, i can only practise his lesson on him. You are an amazing student baby. Stay calm and keep practising...cant disrespect godlikes wishes, as much as he is an illusion.

Lorelyen
11-10-2015, 05:59 PM
You know when someone is outside looking into two people moving through conversation respectfully as you and I were, then suddenly they intervene in seeing what is wrong in their view of one of those people, sometimes what they see and feel lands in the thread in a way where it does come across kind of like how should we put this..Kind of abrupt and direct, because they see something your not seeing. So because your not seeing this, they then turn the feelings they have onto you, with how that feel, in ways where your then made to look like your trying to manipulate, not wanting to see the truth, or understand, the situation in some way. When in fact I didn't feel anything of the sort walking with you through our initial conversation even as I knew we were not seeing each others view in its entirety..

I felt the feelings expressed by lifensoul in that first post that was made and I felt they were indirectly being expressed at you as you being the source of their feelings in those words shared by lifensoul.
If I may just interject....may I?

Because....this topic has been...entertaining. One of the participants has
shown their propensity for working in the theatre...as a projectionist.

It's sometimes a problem when opining turns into projection and browbeating.

Opining is something I reserve for special times.
I'm usually opine between 9am amd 5pm but sometimes stay on for an
interesting discussion, an observation. In this case to watch the cross fire in mind games.
It's nihil.
The post above mine suggests a leaning toward solipsism, a topic recently discussed elsewhere.
Is it real I ask myself, or just a reel of the illusory film of life?

Um......babe? What......? Oh well.....

:smile:

:::

God-Like
11-10-2015, 06:42 PM
I know babe, its tough, but remember god like made it clear he is an illusion. He taight you a important lesson that only i exist and he doesnt. Its okay, remember, he said, in his lesson he taught me, that anothers emotions, in this case godlikes, and anothers life means nothing as it merely is an illusion. Tell him, the illusory godlike, that the god who created me, and my parents and each who nourished and nurtured me wouldnt accept his treating me or my entire life or a single moment in it as an illusion and that it really doesnt exist or even compare it to his own using his spiritual positioning as an excuse....so, unfortunately, i can only practise his lesson on him. You are an amazing student baby. Stay calm and keep practising...cant disrespect godlikes wishes, as much as he is an illusion.

I haven't made it clear that I am an illusion at all . Please refer back to such a statement . I haven't said that only I exist either . I also haven't said another's life means nothing . You seem to be way off base and you are barking up the wrong tree ..

What is up with you?

For once just stick with the program and show me the facts of your accusations and give me the reasons for your disrespectful comments that were based upon my conversation with naturesflow ..

x daz x

Lorelyen
11-10-2015, 08:45 PM
Uhuh..I agree...(wow, look at that, say cheers to the computer screen with your coffee in hand to me after reading this)
Indeed! Oh sheesh....the coffee went everywhere so if therr are any tuping mustakes that's 'cos of coffee trickling down the screen. Oh dear can someone lend me a Kleenex?



Yes good point, alive and life is happening as one big source. Your a manipulator? Good heavens I near fell off my chair again..
Hey, take care. ......I should have used the word "negotiate" shouldn't I?

Yes what mattered like two seconds ago has since packed up and left and now this second is here, is what matters...life being itself... hang on, let me think, what happened two second ago. I know, I near fell off my chair, but that doesn't matter...It's a view, Naturesflow, because in wakeful consciousness we rely on memory and prescience to place ourselves on a time continuum. The remnants of that second that's passed and gone is still hanging around in this typing while I have some hopes of what will soon appear....and move on. And...presumably your chair endures (along the time continuum, of course!). Time is such a nuisance construct. The "now" does seem to float about in a pool of....how can I put it? metatime that can be negotiated along an infinity of axes (plural of axis, not a woodcutting tool :smile:). I mean, as I sometimes experience it in trance it's as if time is a point that can move in a three-dimensional arrangement analogous to our visual/material 3 dimensions, and the resolution is infinite, as in: there are an infinite number of points between 1º and 2º.etc.
.....Sorry...I'm tying myself up in word-knots here. Best if I shut up....



Flying in and out. Reminds me of a conversation with a friend today in Flow rida.(florida if you cant speak flow rida speak).asking out loud why flies don't die when they hit windows but the birds always do? anyway that was long time ago, it don't matter..Coffee, hmmm, haven't had one today, I been good. :D

For you seeing you like to catch up on things on your flight path..

Lorelyn, because your always flying in and out with coffee, here you can read this as your morning entertainment for the day..

Flow rida-Why is it that when flies run into the window at full force they don't die on impact and birds do?
What a great tragedy?
Me-Flies actually wear little mini barbutes for this very reason, didn't you know this?
Flow-I can actually hear their heads greet their asses and their asses great their heads when they smack into the glass.
Me-Which means they have a full suit of armour ...it is a wonder they dont die inside their armour if that is the case?
Flow-Actually, they sound like a small sausage, but I know it's a lump of poo
Me- I suddenly feel a little squirmish now

Flow didn't respond, I am sure he was guzzling his coffee down thinking yay I made her feel sick..

Me-I exaggerated the last bit.
Oh my... But that's a fact - the first thing that goes through a fly's mind on hitting a windscreen.....

Do you happen to know Teresa Green?

:wink:

7luminaries
11-10-2015, 10:34 PM
Naturesflow, hello there! Re your OP, my brief thoughts are that it is all real (both matter and consciousness) in the sense of existence by whatever measure, just some of it being more tangible or denser than others. It is all both real and also ultimately all transitory (all existence and all consciousness) aside from Source or One and thus termed "illusory" in some traditions. However, like the term "detachment" and "love" and many other terms, the mainstream understanding and use of "illusory" is often facile and superficial and creates more confusion. I personally think "illusory" primarily is simply whatever prevents each of us variously from alignment with Source and from living from and being in our centre.

God-Like, hello there! Sort of like what naturesflow said, I think misunderstanding may commonly arise when what we say here on SF in a very particular context somehow resonates with similar turns of phrase or interpretations etc etc that in other contexts have very different meanings which may strike others in a negative way.

I could be way off base but it's possible lifensoul has had this sort of reaction (?). For example many here on SF -- no one in particular -- have generally spoken of the illusion of the rest of existence, as a way of broadly expanding consciousness. Not everyone resonates with this, but it is a common enough approach and many can engage with it intellectually if nothing else. We are familiar with it and for the most part we keep it fully within the specific context of consciousness expansion here at SF with which we assume it belongs.

However, odd as it may seem, it is also true that narcissists and psychopaths use similar sorts of descriptions and perspectives and turns of phrase to reflect their reality. Studies have shown that these mental illnesses or conditions (narcissism, psychopathy) have generally been correlated with some combination of 1) personal environment (severe and persistent emotional or physical abuse or deprivation, particularly at critical phases of human development), 2) although not PC likely also perhaps a genetic predisposition, and 3) less commonly also social environment.

For example, regarding the contribution of #3 toward narcissism, psychopathy and the related spectrum in the recent modern era, an extreme societal focus on utilitarianism (perceiving others and all things as a means to your desired ends) and instant gratification has been observed to have noticeably increased the likelihood of observing narcissistic and psychopathic behaviours. Once something becomes normative, it becomes much harder for the layman to sort those (perhaps even some significant portion) who exploit these behaviours because it's now acceptable to act narcissistically from those who truly cannot act any other way due to their sickness. Another might argue that the sickness of narcissism and psychopathy has moved from the individual minority who are truly ill due to trauma or genetics to the social level of sickness, infecting a much larger number although NOT necessarily permanently or as deeply.

It's all serious food for thought, and it's not offered as a by the way. What I'm saying is perhaps be a bit gentle with lifensoul and offer some explanation of your context. As he/she doesn't know you and may easily mistake some or much of this specific perspective or turn of phrase for something we've all seen in society at large that is very different indeed, but which may look and sound similar. I think the Indian masters who used this once-radical sort of perspective to help others get to a different place and expand their consciousness were and still largely are living in a very different social context and thus their words about it's all about you and all else and all others being illusory meant and felt something very different to what people in the modern era often understand today with this concept. As it is so commonly used today in modern society to justify or reflect a utilitarian, narcissistic or psychopathic perspective. And I know that is not the one you intended. But outside SF, and particularly in the West, that is the one that is more commonly seen today...and further, it is ever more "normalised", accepted, and heavily promoted as preferred. Unfortunately, I can see that it will require ever greater contextualisation and explanation in order to distinguish the specific spiritual context and application of this concept from the much coarser and muddier utilitarian and narcissistic context that is so pervasive in our society today.

Peace & blessings all,
7L

naturesflow
12-10-2015, 01:21 AM
I know babe, its tough, but remember god like made it clear he is an illusion. He taight you a important lesson that only i exist and he doesnt. Its okay, remember, he said, in his lesson he taught me, that anothers emotions, in this case godlikes, and anothers life means nothing as it merely is an illusion. Tell him, the illusory godlike, that the god who created me, and my parents and each who nourished and nurtured me wouldnt accept his treating me or my entire life or a single moment in it as an illusion and that it really doesnt exist or even compare it to his own using his spiritual positioning as an excuse....so, unfortunately, i can only practise his lesson on him. You are an amazing student baby. Stay calm and keep practising...cant disrespect godlikes wishes, as much as he is an illusion.

I am not entirely sure but I think I feel utterly confused by your sharing.

This is by no means being offensive, but its like you have entangled yourself in Godlike, and now I cant see you from him?

IF you were to simply share how you feel,what view you see without bringing him into the picture of your view and feelings, you may have something worthy to share with more clarity of you as the person you are.

Its ok to express yourself and different views, your feelings without making another the source of your view and feelings.

Own it all in yourself and then why not share what you see more clearly in your view, not in the continual comparisons that you wish to make it be about.

You can challenge to the cows come home, compare and keep dragging out who did what, why you are, who said what..and so on, but really its not allowing me to see you as you, but more entangled in godlike.

Is it possible you can simply share and let the other go?

naturesflow
12-10-2015, 01:39 AM
[QUOTE=Lorelyen]If I may just interject....may I?

I read that initially as eject, I was like hell here she comes, she is going to land on our heads and squash us all, then we will all suffocate in the process. (seriously I need to wear my glasses and read things as they are. Not as I think they are)

Because....this topic has been...entertaining. One of the participants has
shown their propensity for working in the theatre...as a projectionist.

You mean someone who projects themselves into the whole, the one holding all the gear at hand, the one who sets it all up for themselves to get their movie up and running, turns it all on, and then becomes all the characters in their own movie and we simply sit back and bask in the wonder of such a great movie?

It's sometimes a problem when opining turns into projection and browbeating.

I don't like beating my brows, I pluck or wax thankyou. I have no problems then..

Opining is something I reserve for special times. What does opining mean? Do you mean like express an opinion? I always ask if I don't understand meanings otherwise I could have an ejectionist land on me..Is that a word? (I ask you because your smart and use lots of big words I just don't have in my vocabulary, so I know you know when I don't know and I have no issue asking you. Everyone should ask sometimes don't you think?..:wink: )
I'm usually opine between 9am amd 5pm but sometimes stay on for an
interesting discussion, an observation. In this case to watch the cross fire in mind games.

Hey its all interesting, you just have to bring your shape shifting abilities with you and move with it all..
It's nihil.

Did you know nihil is a street in a beautiful little Victorian town, where you can shoot great photos up in the mountains of the early morning sunrise and beautiful mist laying over the entire valley below.. I have one of mine if you would like to see one? See nothing is a wonderful source of shared creation..:wink:
The post above mine suggests a leaning toward solipsism, a topic recently discussed elsewhere.


Soli what? what is that? give it to us with clear meaning please Lorelyn? Like can you outline exactly what that is and then we can take a look at it and see whether it resonates with any of us, and whether it might be something we all can take on board in the way we relate to each other?


Is it real I ask myself, or just a reel of the illusory film of life?

I sooooooooooooo love movies. I must have a movie weekend with myself real soon.

Um......babe? What......? Oh well.....

Dems da breaks..:rolleyes:

lifensoul
12-10-2015, 02:14 AM
I am not entirely sure but I think I feel utterly confused by your sharing.

This is by no means being offensive, but its like you have entangled yourself in Godlike, and now I cant see you from him?

IF you were to simply share how you feel,what view you see without bringing him into the picture of your view and feelings, you may have something worthy to share with more clarity of you as the person you are.

Its ok to express yourself and different views, your feelings without making another the source of your view and feelings.

Own it all in yourself and then why not share what you see more clearly in your view, not in the continual comparisons that you wish to make it be about.

You can challenge to the cows come home, compare and keep dragging out who did what, why you are, who said what..and so on, but really its not allowing me to see you as you, but more entangled in godlike.

Is it possible you can simply share and let the other go?

dear naturesflow. I have not a single word more to share than what i do and how i do.

I suspect you might not understand whats shared because i dont do double speak. I meant exactly what i said. Nothing less. Nothing more.

And never will i entangle myself with anyone, so please, do not worry about that. Noone and nothing on earth or outside of it will have me accept anyones inner conflicts or the source of it as mine, as many defences, manipulations and deceptions they might use to blindfold themselves and project it on others. I know myself way too well for that.

Its a shame that anyone might think there is anything beyond what is presented here, in this thread already and i find this very strange too. But what anyone thinks because they know the truth about themselves, is upto them to look into and address. I definitely am not basing anything i have said from anywhere else except the posts in this thread. I find it strange that i am expected to. Try and re read the posts with a tiny element of compassion and apply atleast an element of that spiritual jargon one regularly hears here...that shall ease your confusion and you will see 'me' too.

But sorry, no, there is nothing more for me to offer to you.

Gem
12-10-2015, 02:30 AM
This illusion is a façade because it only exists within a dual experience and conditioning of reality, and so the truth from this same conditioning is a façade as well. There is no truth and illusions, only an idea of that confirmed by a life time of conditioning

What I see here is an assertion of qualities: Illusion, facade, dual, conditioning - This is deemed under a supposition of truth as the asserted qualities represent 'what the truth is not'. This also is a spiritual linguistic genre which is pretty much acceded in communities such as this. These turns of phrase represent a truth by consensus or at least a vast majority agreement.

There is a state beyond that which simply is as it is (aka, at rest )... as well as an expression and expansion of that same state into a conceptual world. And all it seems to be doing, all the time, is to shift from this pure consciousness, to a subjective awareness, in order to know an objective world. It is a perpetual expansion and contraction. A constant moving between emptiness and fulfilment going from the authentic and original truth to a world of opposites. In the world of opposites, most sleep and are unaware of what their true state IS. In the state which is as it is, no one is there to care or contemplate truth or illusion

If we talk in terms of 'as it is' we don't assert qualities to it. But again, the 'true state' and 'what it is not' are not only defined, but superimposed on human beings who are definitively opposed in we-they split, creating an elite minority of we in opposition to the majority of them. Ironically, these definitive Others are rationalised in a context of 'as it is'.

naturesflow
12-10-2015, 02:47 AM
dear naturesflow. I have not a single word more to share than what i do and how i do.

It is good to be you and I can accept this. We are always growing and changing through interactions and reflections of life, so in my view their is potentially always more, even if we perceive ourselves to be firmly grounded in the way you are sharing.

I suspect you might not understand whats shared because i dont do double speak.

Perhaps now I am understanding you a little more just by you sharing this.

And never will i entangle myself with anyone, so please, do not worry about me. Noone and nothing on earth or outside of it will have me accept anyones inner conflicts as mine, as many defences, manipulations or deceptions they might use to blindfold themselves and project it on others. I know myself way too well for that.

I am not worried about you. I was more just putting out there what I thought might be happening. But its good you are clearing this up for me to know the truth of things in yourself, rather than me perceiving my own way. Its good you don't take on, that is very wise.

Its a shame that anyone might think there is anything beyond what is presented here, in this thread already and i find this very strange too. But what anyone thinks because they know the truth about themselves, is upto them to look into and address. I definitely am not basing anything i have said from anywhere else except the posts in this thread. I find it strange that i am expected to. Try and re read the posts with a tiny element of compassion and apply atleast an element of that spiritual jargon one regularly hears here...that shall ease your confusion and you will see 'me' too.

My compassionate side is reaching out, through this shared space. I don't seek to simply be compassionate without understanding, I seek to understand through my compassionate side. So as you reflect here I don't have any expectations on you at all, but rather just allowing the truth of all to participate as one. I am not sure what you mean by spiritual jargon and applying it after I read back with compassion? That doesn't quite gel in me so what do you mean? I am seeing you more now than through your interactions with godlike but this is just my view of course, yours is your own.

But sorry, no, there is nothing more for me to offer to you.

I wasn't expecting you to offer me anything even as I shared what I did, so you don't have to apologize to me. When I share I have no expectations on others, being as they are, but I will be me, as you are being you of course. It was more an invitation to share yourself.

It is a shame you feel you have nothing more to offer, your view is as valid as everyone else's.

lifensoul
12-10-2015, 03:16 AM
It is good to be you and I can accept this. We are always growing and changing through interactions and reflections of life, so in my view their is potentially always more, even if we perceive ourselves to be firmly grounded in the way you are sharing.



Perhaps now I am understanding you a little more just by you sharing this.



I am not worried about you. i should have said dont worry about it. I dont pursue the mess i naively seem to get myself into due to ignorance or unaware or consequences and risks. Nor can i not sense the intense negative energy that gets thrown at me or not feel the emotions threads/posts/lines/messages intend to...its just that i am aware that any such energy in my direction will reverse back to its origins. I was more just putting out there what I thought might be happening. But its good you are clearing this up for me to know the truth of things in yourself, rather than me perceiving my own way. Its good you don't take on, that is very wise.



My compassionate side is reaching out, through this shared space. I don't seek to simply be compassionate without understanding, I seek to understand through my compassionate side. So as you reflect here I don't have any expectations on you at all, but rather just allowing the truth of all to participate as one. I am not sure what you mean by spiritual jargon and applying it after I read back with compassion? That doesn't quite gel in me so what do you mean? I am seeing you more now than through your interactions with godlike but this is just my view of course, yours is your own.


Not after reading, but together with some compassion for another apart from the self and while applying the spiritual positioning one presents here by the use of jargon...that is apply it in practice than simply stating it. I dont mean you dont, but for anyone who might want to.

you will only see one aspect of godlike in my interactions with him and the aspects necessary to make it happen, not 'me'. That too because he repeatedly asks and doesnt seem to be able to see it any other way, except for an reflected projection of himself. Whether he sees it or is irrelavent to me too, as my limits start there. So, you were right when you said that you can only see entanglement with god like.


I wasn't expecting you to offer me anything even as I shared what I did, so you don't have to apologize to me. When I share I have no expectations on others, being as they are, but I will be me, as you are being you of course. It was more an invitation to share yourself.

It is a shame you feel you have nothing more to offer, your view is as valid as everyone else's.

oh, dont get me wrong, i will offer my view when i think it might be of some value, as long as i am still here. its a bit unfortunate for me, as i observe, but i cant be any other way. Except that i wont have a particular view just because someone might want/need me to have one that might suit them.

thanks for asking though and thankyou for understanding too.

naturesflow
12-10-2015, 04:15 AM
thanks for asking though and thankyou for understanding too.

No probs.

Thankyou.:hug3:

God-Like
12-10-2015, 07:21 AM
God-Like, hello there! Sort of like what naturesflow said, I think misunderstanding may commonly arise when what we say here on SF in a very particular context somehow resonates with similar turns of phrase or interpretations etc etc that in other contexts have very different meanings which may strike others in a negative way.

I could be way off base but it's possible lifensoul has had this sort of reaction (?)



Hey .

For sure there has been a complete misunderstanding .. but even so that is no excuse for not asking for clarification instead of just being plain disrespectful . My thoughts were crystal clear in regards to conversation had with naturesflow . The foundation for what is real and what is not is in context and relates to how one perceives themselves . I can't see what the fuss is all about .. I can't see why that would upset anyone. The nature of the thread is about what is real and what is not so there you go . One can only base what is real in reflection of what they know of themselves . What they know of themselves to be real or not .




What I'm saying is perhaps be a bit gentle with lifensoul and offer some explanation of your context. As he/she doesn't know you and may easily mistake some or much of this specific perspective or turn of phrase for something we've all seen in society at large that is very different indeed, but which may look and sound similar.




Are you having a giraffe .

I have been disrespected and misunderstood from the word go . Even when I have pointed out the misunderstandings and point blank refuted what I was supposed to of said or meant by my words, I still have had no proof or explanation given in return whatsoever in regards to their evaluations made .

It's not how I do business and I am just pointing that it is not acceptable behaviour .

Out of curiosity why have you suggested for me to be a little gentle when all I have done is ask for reasons why I have been disrespected . Why my mind state is poor, why I am confused, why am I in denial? If you have followed the conversation then you would of seen that is all what has happened .

Why haven't you suggested to the other party to be more gentle in their original approach .. why haven't you suggested to them to offer some explanation as to why they made such a disrespectful statement . For the record I asked for an explanation and remained respectful ..


x daz x

loopylucid
12-10-2015, 08:21 AM
Hey .

For sure there has been a complete misunderstanding .. but even so that is no excuse for not asking for clarification instead of just being plain disrespectful . My thoughts were crystal clear in regards to conversation had with naturesflow . The foundation for what is real and what is not is in context and relates to how one perceives themselves . I can't see what the fuss is all about .. I can't see why that would upset anyone. The nature of the thread is about what is real and what is not so there you go . One can only base what is real in reflection of what they know of themselves . What they know of themselves to be real or not .




Are you having a giraffe .

I have been disrespected and misunderstood from the word go . Even when I have pointed out the misunderstandings and point blank refuted what I was supposed to of said or meant by my words, I still have had no proof or explanation given in return whatsoever in regards to their evaluations made .

It's not how I do business and I am just pointing that it is not acceptable behaviour .

Out of curiosity why have you suggested for me to be a little gentle when all I have done is ask for reasons why I have been disrespected . Why my mind state is poor, why I am confused, why am I in denial? If you have followed the conversation then you would of seen that is all what has happened .

Why haven't you suggested to the other party to be more gentle in their original approach .. why haven't you suggested to them to offer some explanation as to why they made such a disrespectful statement . For the record I asked for an explanation and remained respectful ..


x daz x

Yeh im hearing you on that godlike, if it counts for anything :hug3: Its a two way thing and how we express is our own responsibility, how we receive is also to. but it works both ways.

Loopy

God-Like
12-10-2015, 08:48 AM
Yeh im hearing you on that godlike, if it counts for anything :hug3: Its a two way thing and how we express is our own responsibility, how we receive is also to. but it works both ways.

Loopy

How we express ourselves towards another is our own responsibility for sure .

From where we are coming from says volumes, how we interact with others speaks volumes .

Sometimes the world seems a funny place and the one that gets their home raided gets in more trouble for defending it than the intruder does .

Even though the raider hasn't a leg to stand on in regards to their intrusion they still cry wolf when things go belly up .

Cheers for the heads up Loops for what it's worth lols .


x daz x

Lorelyen
12-10-2015, 11:01 AM
If I may just interject....may I?
I read that initially as eject, I was like hell here she comes, she is going to land on our heads and squash us all, then we will all suffocate in the process. (seriously I need to wear my glasses and read things as they are. Not as I think they are)
Aww no-o-oh! I'm all pink and fluffy, everyone knows that. Surely...? For a moment I thought you were going to eject me!


Because....this topic has been...entertaining. One of the participants has
shown their propensity for working in the theatre...as a projectionist.

You mean someone who projects themselves into the whole, the one holding all the gear at hand, the one who sets it all up for themselves to get their movie up and running, turns it all on, and then becomes all the characters in their own movie and we simply sit back and bask in the wonder of such a great movie?
Well...more of less exactly except they seemed to be projecting themselves into a hole rather than the whole. No matter. It's dark there, wherever. So they tell me....Whether they're telling the truth or not...maybe I should find out.



Opining is something I reserve for special times.
What does opining mean? Do you mean like express an opinion?
Just the intransitive verb from which opinion is derived. To opine? Opinionate? ....I think...(well, sometimes - not often because it can hurt). I always ask if I don't understand meanings otherwise I could have an ejectionist land on me..Is that a word? (I ask you because your smart and use lots of big words I just don't have in my vocabulary, so I know you know when I don't know and I have no issue asking you. Everyone should ask sometimes don't you think?.. )Me? Big words? Only if it saves typing and usually because the space bar's got stuck. Yes, we should always ask. All the time... However, in this league you're far more eloquent than I.



It's nihil.

Did you know nihil is a street in a beautiful little Victorian town, where you can shoot great photos up in the mountains of the early morning sunrise and beautiful mist laying over the entire valley below.. I have one of mine if you would like to see one? See nothing is a wonderful source of shared creation..

Very nice. And very true. The Romans had a saying: De nihilo nihil fit - from nothing comes nothing. (It's such a complicated language...Crikey! Even saying "good morning" has to agree in case, gender and number....Who'd be a Roman? )


The post above mine suggests a leaning toward solipsism, a topic recently discussed elsewhere.
Soli what? what is that? give it to us with clear meaning please Lorelyn?
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=91339

(It's in the strong opinions section. Take care, there's a whole lotta opining going on down there. I've been ejected for strong opining.
But we get by (which is another aspect of your opening question). Getting by is dealing with the reality we manage to make but still puts obstacles in our way. One wonders - when one makes one's reality within things don't always go according to plan. Hence I suppose it's "as within so without," a variant slant on "as above so below."

Thinking of slants, perhaps I should slope off before I do get ejected. :D

à bientôt

:wink:

Lucyan28
12-10-2015, 02:19 PM
And now....I shall buzz off and be spiritual for a few moments. I always drink coffee while being spiritual.

:smile:
....

:icon_eek: Me too Lorelyen, I find magick/spirituality in coffee :hug2:

Lucyan28
12-10-2015, 02:54 PM
In our human context everything we perceive is real, that's for sure, nevertheless we're conditioned by the laws: gravity, time, duality, etc.

It is like trying to watch something with dirty glasses, we can see some reflection but the image is not clear "real?" But we know there is something real going on anyway.

Maybe without those laws the real "reality" could be experienced.

Jyotir
12-10-2015, 03:01 PM
Hello,


This subject comes up quite a bit in spiritual discussions, if for any reason, because there is a well established existing tradition, particularly in the East, and especially within the jnana branch of yoga, in defining existence and cognition through this apparent schism, e.g., ‘real’ vs. ‘unreal’. Since this tradition is now significantly pervading contemporary Western culture (where presumably these discussions are taking place) there is necessarily going to be a process of re-definition, reassessment and assimilation, especially because (as pointed out by & thank you 7L) the relative contexts of those major cultural groupings constitute major differences in orientation - and especially when it comes to the objectivising, rationalising, and individualising emphasis of Western ideals and approaches, which in some regard are intrinsically antithetical (or seemingly so) to the notion that ‘reality’ could be ‘unreal’, as seen primarily in Eastern traditions.
- - - - -

Cognition or awareness is dependent on the means or vehicle or instrument of that cognition.

So it could be said that from one pov - everything, all life experience, is ‘real’ for the instrument which is experiencing awareness in and through what conditionally qualifies as that instrument. Just think of various life forms and the probable range of experience accordingly. But that doesn’t exclude the possibility that what is seen as the so-called ‘real’ by any differentiated being, may still be illusion from a more ‘complete’ view, including for human beings, who are predominantly mental in consciousness. And mind has in some traditions, been called appropriately, 'the slayer of the real'.

{'The West' looks at that mind almost exclusively (or at least primarily) objectively, through the very instrumental faculty of the mind itself, which as an intrinsically ignorant formation is inherently objectivising, divisive and separative. No wonder there is some confusion!}

A limited instrument of awareness means a limited awareness of reality. And that limited awareness has also been called illusion or ‘unreal’, because of its limitation, distortion, incompleteness, misleading (even false) surface appearance, etc., by those who are fully awake, and have seen the disparity.

In that sense, what has been distinguished as ‘real’, is that which experiences through an instrumental awareness inherently and inalienably complete, whole, one, fully aware of itself in all forms and statuses - as Self, even what in ignorance of that view is traditionally seen as ‘unreal’. To the fully illumined consciousness even that conditionally ‘unreal’ reality will still be experienced as the Real, not as merely an appearance which qualifies as ‘illusion’.

Meanwhile, the dilemma is that in the unillumined ignorant conditional awareness, what is unreal, is seen and held as concretely ‘real’, even if from the illumined view this is actually a limited conditional surface appearance.

What spirituality seeks is the ascension or elevation of individuated, or instrumental consciousness into the higher more comprehensive fuller cognition of true gnostic awareness - knowledge/cognition by Identity. Or, depending on the approach or method of yoga, through the inverse, by the descent of that higher consciousness into the instrumental being. Then the unreal becomes the real, vs previously as in the conditionally ignorant experience of the unreal seeming and appearing to be real, but nevertheless being false, illusory, and incomplete, e.g., 'unreal'.


~ J

lemex
12-10-2015, 03:57 PM
A limited instrument of awareness means a limited awareness of reality. And that limited awareness has also been called illusion or ‘unreal’, because of its limitation, distortion, incompleteness, misleading (even false) surface appearance, etc., by those who are fully awake, and have seen the disparity.

In that sense, what has been distinguished as ‘real’, is that which experiences through an instrumental awareness inherently and inalienably complete, whole, one, fully aware of itself in all forms and statuses - as Self, even what in ignorance of that view is traditionally seen as ‘unreal’. To the fully illumined consciousness even that conditionally ‘unreal’ reality will still be experienced as the Real, not as merely an appearance which qualifies as ‘illusion’.




Very well put. An unreal reality is located where but doesn't mean literal reality is not there.

Reality is of course seen in limited not complete ways. Can anyone who's thought about this give one single example which will clarify what's been said here to be seen.

lemex
12-10-2015, 04:03 PM
In our human context everything we perceive is real, that's for sure, nevertheless we're conditioned by the laws: gravity, time, duality, etc.

It is like trying to watch something with dirty glasses, we can see some reflection but the image is not clear "real?" But we know there is something real going on anyway.

Maybe without those laws the real "reality" could be experienced.

Well put Lucyan.... :smile: You know, I've wondered. For a while I've said unlike Man, Natures does not need to know the laws of how it works. And we talk about it in the terms of the human mind. What of animal minds do lower form animals live in illusion then. I get the feeling some are saying reality is relative.

7luminaries
12-10-2015, 04:03 PM
Hey .

For sure there has been a complete misunderstanding .. but even so that is no excuse for not asking for clarification instead of just being plain disrespectful . My thoughts were crystal clear in regards to conversation had with naturesflow . The foundation for what is real and what is not is in context and relates to how one perceives themselves . I can't see what the fuss is all about .. I can't see why that would upset anyone. The nature of the thread is about what is real and what is not so there you go . One can only base what is real in reflection of what they know of themselves . What they know of themselves to be real or not .

Hey there Dazzer & hope you're well. Yes it's true there's no excuse for rudeness or for unkindness. I completely agree with that and I'm sorry for what you've gone through.

Yet, just like misunderstandings and all the rest, they happen. Very much in line with the topic of what is real and what is unreal or what is real and what is ideal, or what have you. It is the distance we perceive or realize between these seemingly different, separate, or even opposing things that is both the true obstacle and the lesson.

So, given that it happens...my thoughts were that you always have options...
You could....
1) do nothing or disengage...but then again this is a discussion forum ;)
2) try to plow through the root obstacle (the misunderstanding that led to the other's reaction) by brute force or counterforce, or '
3) you can step back and see how best to find yourself on the other side of the obstacle, where you and the other (here, lifensoul) may be able to come to some understanding or resolution.


Are you having a giraffe .

I have been disrespected and misunderstood from the word go . Even when I have pointed out the misunderstandings and point blank refuted what I was supposed to of said or meant by my words, I still have had no proof or explanation given in return whatsoever in regards to their evaluations made .

It's not how I do business and I am just pointing that it is not acceptable behaviour .

Out of curiosity why have you suggested for me to be a little gentle when all I have done is ask for reasons why I have been disrespected . Why my mind state is poor, why I am confused, why am I in denial? If you have followed the conversation then you would of seen that is all what has happened .

Why haven't you suggested to the other party to be more gentle in their original approach .. why haven't you suggested to them to offer some explanation as to why they made such a disrespectful statement . For the record I asked for an explanation and remained respectful ..


x daz x
As to why...
I figured I might have a possible point of origin for the misunderstanding and that it was a good enough place to start. When you see sth everyday and it has a negative context but then you seemingly see the same turns of phrase or perspective here (but in a very different context), it's easy enough to misunderstand and let our core reactive fears or core suspicions overcome our better natures. Core fears and reactions differ, but we all have our share to overcome.

As to why you...
I thought I might appeal to the calmer of the two who, if misunderstood, might care to take the opportunity to provide further context to his comments or to his discussion. Plus, it's an opportunity to take the high road and further model what we might feel is the better way to handle misunderstandings.

If you do care to take the opportunity and you do want reconciliation or resolution at any level, then priority #1 is assessing your safety and security...no one should take abuse or disrespect. Priority #1A is validating and affirming the other's humanity, presence, and right to an opinion even if they and theirs all differ from you and yours. Well, clearly they and you are two separate presences and bodies and individuated consciousnesses...and in fact, simply acknowledging that may go a long way to putting this particular misunderstanding to rest.

In order to progress alongside others, we all do have to sincerely engage and validate one other, even if you disagree or you feel you've been misunderstood. As long as you can tolerate the exchange long enough to potentially come to some resolution. Of course, you have every right to expect the same level and sort of reciprocity, and if you don't receive it even after extending it, then disengaging at the time of your choice is as honourable as any other action.

I know you mean well Daz, it's just I thought you might take the educational opportunity to model behaviour for resolution as well as to clarify how your words and context here at SF are NOT like what is so often intended by "it's all about me (or you)" or "everyone/thing aside from me (or you) is illusory/doesn't matter/isn't real" outside SF. Regardless, whatever you do is fine by me.

Peace & blessings,
7L

Lucyan28
12-10-2015, 04:12 PM
Well put Lucyan.... :smile: You know, I've wondered. For a while I've said unlike Man, Natures does not need to know the laws of how it works. And we talk about it in the terms of the human mind. What of animal minds do lower form animals live in illusion then.

Hi Lemex :hug2:

Remember that us the Human beings are animals too :wink:

The eagle's eyes can see more than our eyes.

The dog's nose can smell more than our nose.

The little ants can perceive a whole different world of pheromones.

It would be amazing if we could also perceive what those fellow animals can.

You see each entity can perceive very differently this reality, the illusion might be in thinking that, with our limited 5 senses, we can perceive the 100% of what the universe actually is.

Molearner
12-10-2015, 04:17 PM
[COLOR="Navy"]


[I]A limited instrument of awareness means a limited awareness of reality. And that limited awareness has also been called illusion or ‘unreal’, because of its limitation, distortion, incompleteness, misleading (even false) surface appearance, etc., by those who are fully awake, and have seen the disparity.

]

Jyotir,

First of all, thanks for that brilliant posting. I pay attention any time that you have a posting because without exception your ability to discern the crucial and relevant is always articulated so well and is a reflection of contemplation and understanding. I regard each posting of yours as a gift. Thank you.....:)

Most helpful to forum participants would be to outline or discuss the culprits that most commonly limit awareness. In my mind(and I might suspect that you would concur) are the programs of the ego. The ego can very easily serve as the filter of distortion which can negate what others might view as the limiting factors to awareness......e.g. intelligence and 'accepted' knowledge.

Once again, thanks for your valuable contribution.

lemex
12-10-2015, 05:47 PM
Hi Lemex :hug2:


Remember that us the Human beings are animals too :wink:

The eagle's eyes can see more than our eyes.

The dog's nose can smell more than our nose.

The little ants can perceive a whole different world of pheromones.

It would be amazing if we could also perceive what those fellow animals can.

You see each entity can perceive very differently this reality, the illusion might be in thinking that, with our limited 5 senses, we can perceive the 100% of what the universe actually is.


Hey Lucyan,

Exactly. And I'm trying to determine what others are using as reality, that there is more. Of course there is I think. All organism take in the input of the same object (thing), but can't and don't see everything about it, or coming from it (certain energies), and it doesn't mean much. Humans don't need to see it for instance. The question is, is it we can't or just don't. This limit is merely physical. Objects seem to be read like a book.

It's delicious to wonder on the scale you mention say anatomically if the human eye was structured to see as acute differences, say the eagle, how might that have changed human development. Certainly objects seem to be imbued with a number of hidden properties that serve purpose. It isn't random. There are trade off of recourses for the organism. Heightening one sense affects another. The last evolution some say in humans was the unnatural frontal cortex development within the last 50,000 year time frame giving humans something animals probably don't have. I see animals in the same position as humans.

Part of the reality is in the object and as another post asked a slave of consciousness simply recognizing property. I say a good fit here. If you would be able to see everything there would be no need to image it and so be locked in, to me that's the danger.

I agree 100% with the observation made and I think you'd get little disagreement as it is obvious. If this is all that others are saying, they I say I finally understand.

7luminaries
12-10-2015, 06:59 PM
:icon_eek: Me too Lorelyen, I find magick/spirituality in coffee :hug2:

Absolutely! And tea and dark chocolate too...:D

Peace & blessings,
7L

7luminaries
12-10-2015, 07:00 PM
Hello,


This subject comes up quite a bit in spiritual discussions, if for any reason, because there is a well established existing tradition, particularly in the East, and especially within the jnana branch of yoga, in defining existence and cognition through this apparent schism, e.g., ‘real’ vs. ‘unreal’. Since this tradition is now significantly pervading contemporary Western culture (where presumably these discussions are taking place) there is necessarily going to be a process of re-definition, reassessment and assimilation, especially because (as pointed out by & thank you 7L) the relative contexts of those major cultural groupings constitute major differences in orientation - and especially when it comes to the objectivising, rationalising, and individualising emphasis of Western ideals and approaches, which in some regard are intrinsically antithetical (or seemingly so) to the notion that ‘reality’ could be ‘unreal’, as seen primarily in Eastern traditions.
- - - - -

Cognition or awareness is dependent on the means or vehicle or instrument of that cognition.

So it could be said that from one pov - everything, all life experience, is ‘real’ for the instrument which is experiencing awareness in and through what conditionally qualifies as that instrument. Just think of various life forms and the probable range of experience accordingly. But that doesn’t exclude the possibility that what is seen as the so-called ‘real’ by any differentiated being, may still be illusion from a more ‘complete’ view, including for human beings, who are predominantly mental in consciousness. And mind has in some traditions, been called appropriately, 'the slayer of the real'.

{'The West' looks at that mind almost exclusively (or at least primarily) objectively, through the very instrumental faculty of the mind itself, which as an intrinsically ignorant formation is inherently objectivising, divisive and separative. No wonder there is some confusion!}

A limited instrument of awareness means a limited awareness of reality. And that limited awareness has also been called illusion or ‘unreal’, because of its limitation, distortion, incompleteness, misleading (even false) surface appearance, etc., by those who are fully awake, and have seen the disparity.

In that sense, what has been distinguished as ‘real’, is that which experiences through an instrumental awareness inherently and inalienably complete, whole, one, fully aware of itself in all forms and statuses - as Self, even what in ignorance of that view is traditionally seen as ‘unreal’. To the fully illumined consciousness even that conditionally ‘unreal’ reality will still be experienced as the Real, not as merely an appearance which qualifies as ‘illusion’.

Meanwhile, the dilemma is that in the unillumined ignorant conditional awareness, what is unreal, is seen and held as concretely ‘real’, even if from the illumined view this is actually a limited conditional surface appearance.

What spirituality seeks is the ascension or elevation of individuated, or instrumental consciousness into the higher more comprehensive fuller cognition of true gnostic awareness - knowledge/cognition by Identity. Or, depending on the approach or method of yoga, through the inverse, by the descent of that higher consciousness into the instrumental being. Then the unreal becomes the real, vs previously as in the conditionally ignorant experience of the unreal seeming and appearing to be real, but nevertheless being false, illusory, and incomplete, e.g., 'unreal'.


~ J




Jyotir...a lovely post, as always!

Peace & blessings,
7L

Lucyan28
12-10-2015, 08:46 PM
Absolutely! And tea and dark chocolate too...:D

Peace & blessings,
7L

Chocolate + Coffee !!! Oh that sounds like Nirvana :hug3:

Remember to Nirvana-ing with moderation :tongue:

Lorelyen
12-10-2015, 09:12 PM
Chocolate + Coffee !!! Oh that sounds like Nirvana :hug3:

Remember to Nirvana-ing with moderation :tongue:

Sounds like Mocha coffee to me!

:smile:

Lucyan28
12-10-2015, 09:21 PM
Sounds like Mocha coffee to me!

:smile:

lol indeed, it is quite Delicious ! Exquisite ! Marvelous !

God-Like
13-10-2015, 06:52 AM
So it could be said that from one pov - everything, all life experience, is ‘real’ for the instrument which is experiencing awareness in and through what conditionally qualifies as that instrument. Just think of various life forms and the probable range of experience accordingly. But that doesn’t exclude the possibility that what is seen as the so-called ‘real’ by any differentiated being, may still be illusion from a more ‘complete’ view, including for human beings, who are predominantly mental in consciousness.



Eggsactly ..


x daz x

God-Like
13-10-2015, 07:06 AM
As to why you...

I thought I might appeal to the calmer of the two who, if misunderstood, might care to take the opportunity to provide further context to his comments or to his discussion. Plus, it's an opportunity to take the high road and further model what we might feel is the better way to handle misunderstandings.



Hey ..

I think you may of been under the impression that my direct line of asking certain questions as to why my line of thoughts were reflecting a poor state of mind etc was anything other than that .

My direct line of asking such questions would have revealed the reason for disrespectful comments made if only they had answered them .

If someone can be disrespectful and not take account or responsibility for one's actions / expressions and without justifying their behaviour then that speaks volumes in my eyes .

J has just said something along similar lines as I did regarding perspectives had on what is real and what is not ..

Perhaps he has got an ear bashing coming his way .. :D


x daz x

Gem
13-10-2015, 08:54 AM
In our human context everything we perceive is real, that's for sure, nevertheless we're conditioned by the laws: gravity, time, duality, etc.

Real is merely a secondary notion that is attributed to experience retrospectively.

It is like trying to watch something with dirty glasses, we can see some reflection but the image is not clear "real?" But we know there is something real going on anyway.

Maybe without those laws the real "reality" could be experienced.

It could be argued that when the glasses are dirty the blur is real and when they are clean the clear vision is real, but essentially, reality is asserted in retrospect.

7luminaries
13-10-2015, 02:00 PM
Real is merely a secondary notion that is attributed to experience retrospectively.

Agreed. This is why I argued that all is real for us in some form or degree (real v unreal, or real v ideal) but only varies in its temporal or momentary nature. Consciousness is less temporal and matter is more so. Existence is regardless, but existence is only apprehended through conscious awareness. Einstein and Tagore had a long debate about this.

It could be argued that when the glasses are dirty the blur is real and when they are clean the clear vision is real, but essentially, reality is asserted in retrospect.

Right and hence the fine and arbitrary line between real and unreal. In fact there is arguably more distance between what is real and what is ideal (varying by the individual perspective).

Peace & blessings,
7L

Lucyan28
13-10-2015, 02:03 PM
Real is merely a secondary notion that is attributed to experience retrospectively.



It could be argued that when the glasses are dirty the blur is real and when they are clean the clear vision is real, but essentially, reality is asserted in retrospect.

I'm not sure about the retrospect stuff, because the retrospection is conditioned to our memory of the past events, but essentially the memory is twisted by the pre-conditions of the observer, so it would be a twisted reality-memory of what the reality "really" is.

The reality is in a permanent change in the present moment I guess, there is no future and no past in the reality, because those times are an illusion as well.

Anyway I'm not a 100% sure about what I'm saying :alien:

lemex
13-10-2015, 02:23 PM
Real is merely a secondary notion that is attributed to experience retrospectively.



It could be argued that when the glasses are dirty the blur is real and when they are clean the clear vision is real, but essentially, reality is asserted in retrospect.


A complicated way of saying it. Retrospect is an old teacher (thought), hard to get past. One experience can affect perception forever. Instead of perception of real you mean a perception of perception. So many acts are decided in memory, the shadows on the cave wall, transferred and part of our logic. New decisions?

7luminaries
13-10-2015, 02:43 PM
Hey ..

I think you may of been under the impression that my direct line of asking certain questions as to why my line of thoughts were reflecting a poor state of mind etc was anything other than that .

My direct line of asking such questions would have revealed the reason for disrespectful comments made if only they had answered them .


Hey there Dazzer no, not at all...I think you did nothing wrong and it was perfectly understandable that you asked directly. I was just giving you an outsider's perspective which is sometimes helpful when we're put on defensive and cannot step away from it.

Sometimes others respond but don't engage us directly or in the manner we expect. I.e., lifensoul was giving his general response to the "it's all about you" perspective which clearly struck him negatively because he misunderstood your specific context (Indian masters). He was provocative and questioned your intentions and understandably you felt it was impolite. Meanwhile you were asking him for a quoted line of text so that you could call him out on his approach broadly.

You want him to engage at the level of quoted words, and there is never an excuse for rudeness in speech, I completely agree. But that is not the level where he is engaging you...though I sympathise with you and I also understand that's hard to see when you've been put on defensive and yet you were still taking pains to be courteous. Trust me, we've all been there and I do understand.

It's often your motives that you must disclose in order to put things to rest...your underlying intentions. And really, I know your motives are good and so it should be a simple enough thing for you to do, should you so wish :hug3:

As I see it, lifensoul didn't respond with quotes of yours because it was your underlying intentions he disagreed with...or perhaps has gravely misunderstood, IMO. As with most misunderstandings, it is only an explanation of your true underlying intentions that will put his concerns to rest. And likely then it is only an apology for misunderstanding you from him that will put your concerns to rest.

First one and then the next, is what I was thinking. Because if you don't clarify that you don't hold narcisstic views in your life more broadly, then everything he has said is valid and cannot be put aside so easily. I thought you deserved a chance to explain yourself, even briefly in a few sentences even :smile:

From my outside perspective, I saw the conflict or misunderstanding may have been IMO rooted in the widespread usage of "it's all about me/others aren't real or don't matter or are secondary" in our mainstream culture of narcissism and he may have been reacting to that. It's a common enough mistake for one who's not as familiar with SF or Vedic traditions...

BUT frankly, we all have to ask ourselves if this spiritual exercise is expanding our consciousness -- given our highly individuated and ever more narcissistic culture. Or whether we already resonate with it and therefore find it convenient and gratifying to put forth this perspective, precisely because it allows us to wallow where we are.

If so, then the whole exercise is not doing its intended job...which was to help people individuate and own their power more fully in ancient to modern times in vastly different cultures which did not and still do not have the same focus on individuality.

But I digress...sorry :wink:


J has just said something along similar lines as I did regarding perspectives had on what is real and what is not ..

Perhaps he has got an ear bashing coming his way .. :D

x daz x

Jyotir's input is engaging and informative, as always!

And yes Daz, of course I sympathise with you having a disgruntled poster going at you...for the record, you know I don't approve of rudeness or discourtesy or name-calling. I myself also usually call others out on discourtesy and I agree that it's not the best way to build bridges. However, if there is a kernel of substance or truth to be addressed, it is always best to do so IMO. It's all a part of what we learn from others.


To lifensoul...
I think I have represented your case as best I understood it. But courtesy is always best, as a general rule.

And perhaps with someone like Daz, you need to listen to him too. The direct approach that he has said he responds to is that of direct questioning, rather than a more provocative or argumentative direct approach (which may work better with some others who enjoy mixing it up a bit).

Because, like many of us, otherwise he may be sidetracked or misdirected by what he sees as rudeness and discourtesy. So, like many of us, if he is upset or put on the defensive, then he may not be able to get at your underlying questions...which may be valid at their root.

I hope if you and Daz can each get the information you need, that you will see things differently and may be moved to mend fences :biggrin:

Peace & blessings all,
7L

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 04:37 PM
Dear 7luminaries,

I didnt really ask for representation, but thank you anyways. However, no, you took the best middle path, which i appreciate too, but you didnt represent my stance as such, for you got yourself trapped into taking on godlikes projections as your own.

I was neither rude nor disrespectful - i was right. As simple as that. But if you were to loom in detail, i was only emathetic, compassionate and understanding of godlike's state of mind, i just didnt notice that he was in such a strong denial, so strong that he would do anything to remain so...even after assuming the possible bility of it...he obviously didnt come across as a saint...i must trust myself more next time.

I answered godlikes questions each time he asked. And i also took the trouble, just because he asked, to explain why i answered the way i did, tried to understand his increasing strange denial, and to finally show him a picture of himself as i saw him through his posts...but apparently he knew it all already...except that i trusted his questions to be genuine...a fool i am. Honest answer was not what he was looking for, i didnt realise it as i didnt susoect his question to be dishonest as i wasnt dishonest about my comment. His chosing to remain in denial, confusedand callous isnt my problem. In fact he has shown his personality so strongly since, that i realise my observation of him was presented very very weakly by me, in retrospect. He has shown, very clearly that he has not an ounce of compassion within him, that no one except his darkness matters to him and he will use any excuse and drag anyone into his projections to remain in denial andto attack quite viciously anyone who might accidently state the truth which he quite arrogantly presents...arrogant perhaos because he knows he can ruin anything that might state the obvious, as he clearly knows the exact nature if the obvious and wishes to keep it hidden, and doesnt have the capability or capacity to face himself. Topmost secret he has revealed in his posts in this thread - he doesnt understand a word of his own statements in true spiritual sense nor does he practices, as seen through his posts, just the opposite of it all.

And no. God like doesn't respind to direct questions either, except to drag people into becoming his reflections, as is already obvious through the many discussions in this thread. Neither is he as sensitive as he claims to be...if he were, he would have made the least effort to considers the answers given to his questions, made an effort to understand his own words and his own projections upon others which, obviously someone (practically could have been anyone and thereby everyone), a complete stranger and innocent in the drama of his setting, had found them quite painful.

I left the conversation as it was obvious godlike wouldnt be able to cope with knowing how easy it is to see through one's own self deception - in god likes case his denial indeed - no wonder he hated listening to the words and his projections projected right back onto himself . And most in todays workd think they can blindfokd their conscience will they work against it. Joke. But 7luminaries, i couldnt refuse your request.

I have also understood, from the conversations in this thread, from godlike's self disclosed personality profile and from his answering my questions that this is a very very strong an in terms if some form of power or position in real life - as strong as his self denial. Thats okay...i naively ended up in this, god protect me/us from all harm, evil, darkness, the carriers and protectors of it all and from destruction in any to even the remotest aspects of my/our lives and of those i represent...after all, in a way, you threw me into this situation by giving me/us the wisdom you have.

I expressed my wish to know a few things about the way he presented himself as such - and he has not only provided answers to my questions, but has taken a step forward revealing the depths of his personality too. Thank you godlike, but i didnt ask you for that, but yes thank you for answering my questions in no uncertain terms.

The actual philosophy would be - all are one, one is all....the depths of its meaning will be the exact opposite of god like's sad understanding of it. One encompassess all - entire humanity and not ones one select group for select dark, material, very personal and selfish benefits (not something many herevcan get their head around, i suppose and observe) - into ones view of self, and feels atleast the same, if not more, depth of attachment with all that exists as one feels towards the self. Now, thats the eventual and only outcome of anyone truly following a spiritual path, which i am sure most, if not all have reached...however, its quite disgusting and unforgivable that one abuses even the basics for their own benefit...there a limit, for heavens sake. I wanted to share more, but i realise whats not seen as worth receiving is not worth sharing and i say this generally.

7luminaries, dont take on other peoples projections as your own...not good. As you said, there are lots of evil people out there and in here too i suppose who thrive on getting others to absorb and accept their dark inner conflicts as your own. Doesnt suit you, infact could be detrimental to your path, if its the spiritual path in the right direction that you seek, i mean, going by how you generally present through the posts.

For anyone who still doesnt understand it, got to be the ones who dont follow what they preach, in fact dont understand much of it either, except perhaps to 'abuse' this too - i was, had taken on the role, each time i read and responded to godlike's posts, still do and am, as i write this post - each and every human except godlike (and the people who project his refections of his behalf, as so far displayed charecteristics here), i am also the murdered in naturesflows hypothetical situation...which in fact, we all know is a very real situation in everyday life in one variation or the other.

Sf forum is not different from the world outside sf forum. The possibility a myth. Its a shame if people here act any different to how they arein real life...for heavens sake, its a spiritual forum, not a spiritual drama.

What god like shared is not indian philosophy, 7 luminaries. Its a philosophy which creates, nourishes and nurtures psychopaths and such.

But honestly, the chatter in the background is such a shame, i mean all it needed was to read the posts with an element of compassion and practice of what one preaches on here...worse when people say i have high expectations about spirituality or of people (yikes man. Who ever sees it that way has such extremely poor, poorer than poor levels of self worth...or is an alien) and i thought it was me thinking i dont sometimes practice what i preach in real world.

Btw 7luminaries, you should have read my respinse to naturesflow before you attempted to drag me down to become what godlike desperately wishes me to become so that he can continue with his self deception etc, for his own personal benefit by the looks of it, through using you as his reflection. I didnt side track the discussion, godlike did and everyone who have taken on his dark projections on as their own did. You underestimate me, or perhaps yourself through it, 7luminaries...if you had looked carefully,i am no disgruntled poster, as much as you might want to tell yourself because you dont want to hear what i say, in fact it says a lot more about you, than about me.

PassionOfHybrid
13-10-2015, 05:22 PM
Aww no-o-oh! I'm all pink and fluffy, everyone knows that. Surely...? For a moment I thought you were going to eject me!


Well...more of less exactly except they seemed to be projecting themselves into a hole rather than the whole. No matter. It's dark there, wherever. So they tell me....Whether they're telling the truth or not...maybe I should find out.



Just the intransitive verb from which opinion is derived. To opine? Opinionate? ....I think...(well, sometimes - not often because it can hurt). Me? Big words? Only if it saves typing and usually because the space bar's got stuck. Yes, we should always ask. All the time... However, in this league you're far more eloquent than I.


Very nice. And very true. The Romans had a saying: De nihilo nihil fit - from nothing comes nothing. (It's such a complicated language...Crikey! Even saying "good morning" has to agree in case, gender and number....Who'd be a Roman? )


http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=91339

(It's in the strong opinions section. Take care, there's a whole lotta opining going on down there. I've been ejected for strong opining.
But we get by (which is another aspect of your opening question). Getting by is dealing with the reality we manage to make but still puts obstacles in our way. One wonders - when one makes one's reality within things don't always go according to plan. Hence I suppose it's "as within so without," a variant slant on "as above so below."

Thinking of slants, perhaps I should slope off before I do get ejected. :D

à bientôt

:wink:

I don't think it's always about having a strong opinion why some people attack. Well, maybe in certain cases.

I've had that issue, myself.

One of them being where my opinions, to others, sound as if I'm passing it on as a fact. When, in actuality, it's confidence and security, which can threaten their own opinion, and makes it feel as if I'm knocking down their ideas. Especially some of the sensitives, who perceive confidence as arrogance. I've been on the offending and receiving end of this. Minus, the ego collapse...but yes, the defending of it.

But, here's the thing, If I truly believe in something to be part of the truth, would I not speak of it as if it fact, if I strongly believe in it?


Another scenerio is the way I share my thoughts and Ideas. I'm confident some of them, and when others lack confidence in their own beliefs, it can feel like your knocking down their own. So, that's where you must be careful with your "wordings". It can come across as condescending, frank, brutal, etc...and you'll just be sitting there wondering "how come people attack me for my opinions".One can be careless in their choice of words, or the other is too brittle or sensitive to the thoughts of others. Or just both sides.

Sometimes it can be either the way you project ideas, a misunderstanding, or simply a lack of security on their behalf(like something that feels like pure truth and breaks through the barriers of each person's ego causing them to go into ego defense and attack...in some cases)

loopylucid
13-10-2015, 05:26 PM
Musical interlude ... :)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v7LlS5Ajs4

Loopy

Lucyan28
13-10-2015, 05:41 PM
I don't think it is necessary to defend our opinions or points of view, what would be the point in that? Every mind has its own knowledge (data) and it will work for some greater purpose some day, so it's redundant to say that someone point of view is wrong or right.

1) Person A - "the grass is greener on my side"
2) Person B - "no way, the grass is greener on my side"

A pointless discussion, isn't it? :D

The only thing that is worth it, is to share things with an open mind.

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 05:51 PM
Oh passion of hybrid, you are too naive. Dont take the risk of stating the obvious, especially the truth and obvious most pretend not to noice, the elephant in the room, (even if, as can be seen, you dont take sides). Its the most dangerous thing one is capable of doing in todays world and all of its perfect mini representations.

7luminaries
13-10-2015, 05:52 PM
lifensoul, we're all unburdening ourselves a bit here aren't we? I've been doing that myself in several areas over the last several months. It does lighten the load and helps bring perspective.

I do appreciate that you put some time & thought behind your post. I understand you and Godlike have different ideas about how you've each come across. And I understand your concerns re: Godlike, which you've described carefully. I also understand his concerns about the exchange you've had. I also feel certain that God-Like could address some of your concerns straightaway, and I hope that he does so.

I've known Godlike for several years and I'll let him speak for himself. But just as I feel you mean well and that you are trying to engage him in your own way, I feel he means well too and that he is trying to engage you in his own way.

I do know he has shared here on SF that he has experienced trauma and has dealt with some extreme personalities close to home both as a child and as an adult. I know that generally speaking, emotional trauma can damage a person and may cause him or her to become unable to bond closely with others or to become severely introverted &/or removed from others socially. That sort of thing can severely limit the ways in which one can perceive others or engage with others...but it does not ever have to define the upper bounds of our emotional and spiritual growth. Growth is always possible with faith and grace and the will to engage with oneself, others, and Spirit. I feel both he and I, like you and the rest of us, have definitely grown over the last few years. Everyone's pace is their own, of course...and that's what is sometimes difficult to keep in mind. Sometimes regarding oneself and sometimes regarding others...

It's also true compassion for ourselves & others is also always needed. I hope that we can all be compassionate toward one another. That is key to dialogue, perception, and acceptance. And, like all aspects of love, compassion is key to healing and growth, because it opens our heart and allows us to receive grace.

I also know Daz has a kind and loving heart, and I hope that he will reveal more of that here with you as well, if all goes well :hug3:

Well, I'll leave it at that.
Peace & blessings,
7L

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 05:54 PM
I don't think it is necessary to defend our opinions or points of view, what would be the point in that? Every mind has its own knowledge (data) and it will work for some greater purpose some day, so it's redundant to say that someone point of view is wrong or right.

1) Person A - "the grass is greener on my side"
2) Person B - "no way, the grass is greener on my side"

A pointless discussion, isn't it? :D

The only thing that is worth it, is to share things with an open mind.

Or one could even do better, call the grass red, get some popcorn and just enjoy just coz it doesnt affect you...to be fair to the one who takes that posotion, they would join the 'selected' majority

Lucyan28
13-10-2015, 06:07 PM
Or one could even do better, call the grass red, get some popcorn and just enjoy just coz it doesnt affect you...to be fair to the one who takes that posotion, they would join the 'selected' majority

well yeah, we could say it is red and enjoy the show, but on the other side of the screen could be a fragile person, sensitive, sick, etc. and when they feel they're being engaged in a hostile way that could literally ruin their day, and what if that's their last day on earth, would you like to be the cause of more suffering? :icon_frown:

It's always better to take the things in a easy way :hug2: like being easygoing =) smooth as water, swift as the air...

Blessings and sorry to comment about all this situation, I just felt it was ok but now it feels it might not, I just don't like conflicts :redface:

****Lucyan flies away****

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 06:10 PM
lifensoul, we're all unburdening ourselves a bit here aren't we? I've been doing that myself in several areas over the last several months. It does lighten the load and helps bring perspective.

I do appreciate that you put some time & thought behind your post. I understand you and Godlike have different ideas about how you've each come across. And I understand your concerns re: Godlike, which you've described carefully. my pleasure.

I've known Godlike for several years and I'll let him speak for himself. ahh, i see, now hat makes sense. You were ofcourse biased. I must truly trust myself more...i thought your appeal to me was genuine!! But just as I feel you mean well and that you are trying to engage him in your own way, I feel he means well too and that he is trying to engage you in his own way. i have no desire or intention to engage godlike, definitely not after he revealed himself in such detail...you see, i just thought it to be some minor everyday conflict within himself, or perhaps even misunderstanding of his own words, but obviously it isnt.

I do know he has shared here on SF that he has experienced trauma and has dealt with some extreme personalities close to home both as a child and as an adult. I know that generally speaking, emotional trauma can damage a person and may cause him or her to become severely introverted &/or removed from others socially. That sort of thing can severely limit the ways in which others can perceive others or engage with others...but it does not ever have to define the upper bounds of our emotional and spiritual growth. Growth is always possible with faith and grace and the will to engage with oneself, others, and Spirit. oh, (remember.remember. got to respect godlike and his buddies, more so now. Remember godlike's lesson and lately exemplified by his buddies), 7 luminaries, thats okay...it doesnt really matter, life of an individual means nothing and is a mere illusion in comparision to ones own.

It's also true compassion for ourselves & others is also always needed. I hope that we can all be compassionate toward one another. That is key to dialogue, perception, and acceptance. And, like all aspects of love, compassion is key to healing and growth, because it opens our heart and allows us to receive grace.

I also know Daz has a kind heart, and I hope that he will reveal more of that here with you as well, if all goes well :hug3: he has already described himself in great detail through his friends and himself. I do hope, none will stoop down to lower levels...

Well, I'll leave it at that.
Peace & blessings, you dont mean this do you? Truth, peace, blessings are reserved for thos whose projections you are forced to take on, at the cost of all of it and everyone and everything else.why?
7L

My response in green

Mr Interesting
13-10-2015, 06:12 PM
musical interlude No2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pvna8_Yfqc)

'Head in the sky, feet on the ground'

One of the things I really like about music is what might be the interconnectiveness of beat and melody where the instruments in the lower register hold to a beat to anchor us and then the upper register instruments go off on melodic jaunts and while even that in itself becomes, not a cliché, but another grounding in itself... it's not a rule at all.

You can use melodic instruments to create the beat and drums and basses etc can be melodic, or play improvised lines and it's like what we might define as real and unreal, that the bass of life can play improvised lines where you have no idea where it's going and the normally higher register can play that repeating set of notes like a guard rail to hold us to a directive thing.

Lorelyen
13-10-2015, 06:12 PM
I don't think it's always about having a strong opinion why some people attack. Well, maybe in certain cases.

I've had that issue, myself.

One of them being where my opinions, to others, sound as if I'm passing it on as a fact. When, in actuality, it's confidence and security, which can threaten their own opinion, and makes it feel as if I'm knocking down their ideas. Especially some of the sensitives, who perceive confidence as arrogance. I've been on the offending and receiving end of this. Minus, the ego collapse...but yes, the defending of it.

But, here's the thing, If I truly believe in something to be part of the truth, would I not speak of it as if it fact, if I strongly believe in it?


Another scenerio is the way I share my thoughts and Ideas. I'm confident some of them, and when others lack confidence in their own beliefs, it can feel like your knocking down their own. So, that's where you must be careful with your "wordings". It can come across as condescending, frank, brutal, etc...and you'll just be sitting there wondering "how come people attack me for my opinions".One can be careless in their choice of words, or the other is too brittle or sensitive to the thoughts of others. Or just both sides.

Sometimes it can be either the way you project ideas, a misunderstanding, or simply a lack of security on their behalf(like something that feels like pure truth and breaks through the barriers of each person's ego causing them to go into ego defense and attack...in some cases)

Yes. It doesn't help on something like an internet forum either where, because it's worldwide there can be great cultural differences, plus the only clue we have to intent, a person's mood, a personality (in the common use of the word), is through this typewritten word. So it's impossible to "see" a person's reaction, whether they're being overwhelmed or underwhelmed, etc etc.

It also doesn't help when some - the new-ageists especially - redefine established terms but without being able to substantiate their new usage. So misunderstandings ensue and attempts to clear them up can be seen as attack. I've received personal insults in this pursuit, not that they touch me when things reduce to the level of personal ad hominem. It isn't worth continuing - in an argument I'd know I'd won. In a discussion it tells me that the person really hasn't thought things through. But that's beside the point.

When I was studying it was often reckoned that words themselves accounted for about 7% of a communication, the rest is more subtle clues, many to do with body language. So, what's said e.g. here, has to be the whole communication. Interactive difficulty is inevitable.

I see no problem with someone entirely confident in their beliefs asserting them. Yes, there'll be those to whom assertiveness seems an attack (and the sad thing is they might shrink away and worry about their own beliefs/ideas being "wrong" or useless - which they never are...) and those who lose their rag and try to hit back with projections or insult. But one can help people who seem sincere which means getting to know them a little here, know they're vulnerable or in distress. That's why I sometimes chat informally (enough evidence of that in this thread), just as one would get acquainted face-to-face.

We just have to do our best if we need help or want to help. I've never minded criticism here because there's always more to learn. Sometimes we have to retreat or apologise - we might offend without intent, simply because cultural backgrounds come into play - and spirituality covers the vast possibilities of being. Sometimes we have to argue our cases.

All good. :smile:

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 06:27 PM
well yeah, we could say it is red and enjoy the show, but on the other side of the screen could be a fragile person, sensitive, sick, etc. and when they feel they're being engaged in a hostile way that could literally ruin their day, and what if that's their last day on earth, would you like to be the cause of more suffering? :icon_frown:

ooh, lucyan cares about anothers suffering...are you godlikes favourite chela? I still remember your famous post in your recent karma thread that shocked me so much that all i could say was that it was strange, out of compassion of your use of your excuse of your pain to exclude anothers pain as not worthy of the slightest tinge of compassion.. Why, your love isnt enough in this case?

It's always better to take the things in a easy way :hug2: like being easygoing =) smooth as water, swift as the air...
yeah...i wonder why you didnt take your own recent affairs the same way. I hope you realise lucyan, only your pain isnt pain nor the pain of those you identify with...

Blessings and sorry to comment about all this situation, I just felt it was ok but now it feels it might not, I just don't like conflicts :redface: oh man, blessings again!!! Lucyan, i must inform you, i dont fall into your 'pain' group, i consider the pain of those apart from you and your group as the same pain as yours...you might be told off for giving blessings to me.

****Lucyan flies away****

My response in green.

Lorelyen
13-10-2015, 06:36 PM
I don't think it is necessary to defend our opinions or points of view, what would be the point in that? Every mind has its own knowledge (data) and it will work for some greater purpose some day, so it's redundant to say that someone point of view is wrong or right.

1) Person A - "the grass is greener on my side"
2) Person B - "no way, the grass is greener on my side"

A pointless discussion, isn't it? :D

The only thing that is worth it, is to share things with an open mind.

You've hit it dead on there, Lucyan. But you have to admit there are cases of preachers appearing here peddling stuff that's really just opinion but presented as the right or best "path". Sometimes they get it wrong or the advice is inappropriate because it stems from lack of knowledge and those with a deeper grounding join the fray.

Sometimes people argue pointlessly or insult/deride others in a slanted sort of way, working to some unwitting agenda of their own, confronters, contentious people. I had someone in the strong opinions section claim my opinion arose from fear/pain. I had to counter that as it was complete bunk!

It happens.

(but your taste in coffee is excellent!)

:smile:

PassionOfHybrid
13-10-2015, 06:38 PM
well yeah, we could say it is red and enjoy the show, but on the other side of the screen could be a fragile person, sensitive, sick, etc. and when they feel they're being engaged in a hostile way that could literally ruin their day, and what if that's their last day on earth, would you like to be the cause of more suffering? :icon_frown:

It's always better to take the things in a easy way :hug2: like being easygoing =) smooth as water, swift as the air...

Blessings and sorry to comment about all this situation, I just felt it was ok but now it feels it might not, I just don't like conflicts :redface:

****Lucyan flies away****

That's actually called fear, like a fear of confrontation.

Your type of fear can cause you to hate... hate or dislike bold or irrational people and covet courageous or confident people.

Just letting you know...that is all.

Lucyan28
13-10-2015, 06:41 PM
You've hit it dead on there, Lucyan. But you have to admit there are cases of preachers appearing here peddling stuff that's really just opinion but presented as the right or best "path". Sometimes they get it wrong or the advice is inappropriate because it stems from lack of knowledge and there are those with a deeper grounding.

It happens.

(but your taste in coffee is excellent!)

:smile:

Hi Lorelyen :hug3:

Well yeah in those scenarios of the crazy preachers/dictators/etc., it is indeed necessary for people to stand their ground.

There is one saying which I can relate: "I'm a lover not a fighter"

I used to have the energy to defend and fight for my points of view, nowadays I only have energy to focus on my healing, to share love, and also to drink the divine coffee daily.

Lucyan28
13-10-2015, 06:47 PM
That's actually called fear, like a fear of confrontation.

Your type of fear can cause you to hate... hate or dislike bold or irrational people and covet courageous or confident people.

Just letting you know...that is all.

Hi Passion :hug:

It's more like having a clear purpose, and this purpose doesn't involve confrontation of any type on this earth.

I have indeed fears, but confrontation with people/ideas is not one of them, it's just not in my personality anymore.

Lorelyen
13-10-2015, 06:52 PM
That's actually called fear, like a fear of confrontation.

Your type of fear can cause you to hate... hate or dislike bold or irrational people and covet courageous or confident people.

Just letting you know...that is all.

How do you make that out? Avoiding confrontation doesn't necessarily entail fear. It could be that the person can't be bothered.

I don't like chocolate cake when offered to me but that doesn't mean I fear it.

:confused:

PassionOfHybrid
13-10-2015, 08:00 PM
Hi Passion :hug:

It's more like having a clear purpose, and this purpose doesn't involve confrontation of any type on this earth.

I have indeed fears, but confrontation with people/ideas is not one of them, it's just not in my personality anymore.

To me, it just sounds like a little bit of desperation, and seeing things from one side of the spectrum, and not considering the fact that your not responsible for the pain or actions of another, but only your words.

The pessimistic notion that "this person might by some fragile person and it could have been their last day to live"(something along those lines), give's me a gist of where your mind is at.

This world is not full of sad, weak, lonely people that need individuals that entitle themselves to save or be kind to everyone.

To me, it's very suspect that someone has this way of thinking. It makes me wonder if you're honest with yourself as a person.

Confrontation is not always bad, sometimes it's about taking a courageous step and confronting a person upfront and possibly resolve things. It's necessary, sometimes.

You dislike confrontation, then possibly you dislike confronting inner darkness within yourself.It might be a reflection of yourself.

There''s a moment to be at peace, then a moment to confront.

running away from our own problems does us no good...that I learned.

And if this doesn't apply to you, it surely applies to someone else.

7luminaries
13-10-2015, 08:19 PM
My response in green

I am sorry, truly...if I've hurt you or the exchange more than I've helped.
I also hope I haven't hurt God-Like in my same efforts.

You may not believe this, but I do think you are providing a spiritual opportunity to God-Like, if he chooses to engage you or respond to you regarding his perspective or what he means...and that is loving in its own way, if it fosters growth. I also want him to know that he too is supported and his perspective is valued too.

And I hope I and the rest may also support you in that direction as well, in some way...perhaps by hearing you out, engaging with you, and trying to see your side as well.

I really do feel a lot of love all round these days. In the sense of agape or authentic love for others. Even if I don't always agree, and I've been there with God-Like before as well, that's for certain. And I know that we do have to speak our truths when our humanity demands it, even when they're not popular...and there I think we can relate to you or to anyone who may find themselves in that spot. It's often needed in order to set down some of our burdens.

Of course as Mr Interesting notes well, good intentions don't always smoothly translate, unfortunately. And for all that is lost in my translation of my good intentions, my apologies to you and to God-Like. It's the road to hell, as they say :D

It's also true what they say...that just because we are all imperfect, and some of us even deeply broken, we are all still worthy of love. And the moment we truly begin to realize that, we become potentially capable of giving and receiving love. Then, we have only to go through real work... the lifelong process of owning that capability, rising to it, and standing for it.

Peace & blessings to you and to God-Like both...and yes, I really do mean it.
7L

7luminaries
13-10-2015, 08:30 PM
Hi Lorelyen :hug3:

Well yeah in those scenarios of the crazy preachers/dictators/etc., it is indeed necessary for people to stand their ground.

There is one saying which I can relate: "I'm a lover not a fighter"

I used to have the energy to defend and fight for my points of view, nowadays I only have energy to focus on my healing, to share love, and also to drink the divine coffee daily.


Hahaha...that daily cup of divine coffee will see you through many a battle, my friend. Do not underestimate its power :coffee2:

Though I do find that I tend to spread love all over my disagreements lately.
Because I (most times) still feel agape love even when I disagree or they annoy the hell out of me, you know? :wink:

I actually LIKE the disagreement (if of substance or sincere) in some ways because it means they are airing their truths. Sounds mad, but that's me...

The annoying part is mostly the stubbornness, fear, & traumas we have to deal with in selves & others that are just so deeply entrenched.
But as Buddha and MLK said, darkness cannot overcome darkness, only light. And hatred cannot overcome hatred, only love.

Peace & blessings, amigo
7L

Lucyan28
13-10-2015, 09:23 PM
Hahaha...that daily cup of divine coffee will see you through many a battle, my friend. Do not underestimate its power :coffee2:

Though I do find that I tend to spread love all over my disagreements lately.
Because I (most times) still feel agape love even when I disagree or they annoy the hell out of me, you know? :wink:

I actually LIKE the disagreement (if of substance or sincere) in some ways because it means they are airing their truths. Sounds mad, but that's me...

The annoying part is mostly the stubbornness, fear, & traumas we have to deal with in selves & others that are just so deeply entrenched.
But as Buddha and MLK said, darkness cannot overcome darkness, only light. And hatred cannot overcome hatred, only love.

Peace & blessings, amigo
7L

Hi 7L :hug:

Indeed that is the way to confront things, only with Love, kindness and compassion, it will lead to peaceful decisions and better outcomes, always ! :D

It's not necessary to confront another human being with hate, violence, hostility, etc. it would only create a hectic environment, even though some persons can learn from it, I prefer to learn from love, it has been my choice this life.

I hope Passion can see this response, I DO face the dark side inside of me but certainly not with hate/hostility, it's always better to face things with love and determination, not with anger and hate, this last Sunday I jumped from an airplane, (the heights are my worst fear you know)

Lucyan28
13-10-2015, 09:28 PM
yeah...i wonder why you didnt take your own recent affairs the same way. I hope you realise lucyan, only your pain isnt pain nor the pain of those you identify with...

Yeah that's a good advice life :redface:

I can deal with anger/hate/violence easily, but the broken heart thing and sickness are way different, it has been the most devastating thing I've ever experienced on this incarnation, so currently I'm learning and healing from it, lucky me I'm taking it in a easy going mood :redface: well kinda of !

Blessings Life, relax and take it easy :hug2:

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 09:32 PM
Why 7luminaries? Your love to godlike all through these years didnt heal him, instead it seems to have amplified into all those qualities he has projected, or do you chose to specifically give your 'love' to such attitudes and darkness preferably more than to truth and humanity or do you not know the difference either? It seems to be a style here, inability to discern light from dark, good from bad.

I bet you are saying that lucyan because you know you will never allow yourself to feel anothers pain except when it benefits you or is specifically related to your narrow and very selfish definition of pain and you will do your all to never aquaint with those in pain who dont fall into your definition of pain and love, by creating the most distance, using spiritual love jargon, like you have done earlier elsewhere, because yoy knowyou will never really be the one who will 'give' your 'love' to the other categories? So you wont really need to be compassionate to anyone except your own...whoever and whatever your own is. Why didnt your 'love' help godlike in this thread from reaching this stage of humiliation? Or why didnt it stop 7luminaries and him and others in this thread and since i have been here from directly and indirectly attempting to sgut me up? Why doesnt your love give you the strength to atleast even think twice before you give strength to misleading and destructive fake truth and fake deceptive love which is capable of causing intense suffering and severe damages lasting through many lives perhaps? - you dont have to fight or hate for it. Why doesnt it help you see reality? What exactly is your love for?

I am sure you guys have a million arguments. Each to his own. I am done. And i dont know the answers either.

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 09:47 PM
yeah...i wonder why you didnt take your own recent affairs the same way. I hope you realise lucyan, only your pain isnt the only pain nor the pain of only those you identify with...


Yeah that's a good advice life :redface:

I can deal with anger/hate/violence easily, but the broken heart thing and sickness are way different, it has been the most devastating thing I've ever experienced on this incarnation, so currently I'm learning and healing from it, lucky me I'm taking it in a easy going mood :redface: well kinda of !

Blessings Life, relax and take it easy :hug2:

I notice i missed out a word 'the only' and 'only' which i have included i green. Not that it will make any difference to you...still.

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 09:58 PM
Yeah that's a good advice life :redface:

I can deal with anger/hate/violence easily, but the broken heart thing and sickness are way different, it has been the most devastating thing I've ever experienced on this incarnation, so currently I'm learning and healing from it, lucky me I'm taking it in a easy going mood :redface: well kinda of !

Blessings Life, relax and take it easy :hug2:

Its the same pain lucyan, exactly the same. How can you still cant see it, even after you claim you have experienced it. What do you think, your pain feels different to anothers pain? Your bloods red and others green? Others who suffer dont suffer?

Only your love for your very specific desire is love? Only that can result in heartbreak? Nothing else is not inclusive of love for you is it? I am lost for words at your selfishness even in defining love and pain and suffering.

What exactly is giving love, compassion and kindness lucyan? What is compassion? What does love do? What is love? Never mind again. Please dont give the answers though.

How does it feel when ypur pain isnt met with compassion? Good? How do you think another feels whose pain and heartbreak that doesnt fall into your specific category is met with coldness and impossible fake meaningless words?

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 10:12 PM
Yeah that's a good advice life :redface:

I can deal with anger/hate/violence easily, but the broken heart thing and sickness are way different, it has been the most devastating thing I've ever experienced on this incarnation, so currently I'm learning and healing from it, lucky me I'm taking it in a easy going mood :redface: well kinda of !

Blessings Life, relax and take it easy :hug2:

Its the same pain lucyan, exactly the same. How can you still cant see it, even after you claim you have experienced it. What do you think, your pain feels different to anothers pain? Your bloods red and others green? Others who suffer dont suffer?

Only your love for your very specific desire is love? Only that can result in heartbreak? Nothing else is not inclusive of love for you is it? I am lost for words at your selfishness even in defining love and pain and suffering.

How does it feel when your pain isnt met with compassion? Good? How do you think another feels whose pain and heartbreak that doesnt fall into your specific category is met with coldness and impossible fake meaningless words?

Never mind again. Please dont give the answers though.

PassionOfHybrid
13-10-2015, 10:13 PM
Hi 7L :hug:

Indeed that is the way to confront things, only with Love, kindness and compassion, it will lead to peaceful decisions and better outcomes, always ! :D

It's not necessary to confront another human being with hate, violence, hostility, etc. it would only create a hectic environment, even though some persons can learn from it, I prefer to learn from love, it has been my choice this life.

I hope Passion can see this response, I DO face the dark side inside of me but certainly not with hate/hostility, it's always better to face things with love and determination, not with anger and hate, this last Sunday I jumped from an airplane, (the heights are my worst fear you know)

Who said anything about hate and anger? Where did that come from?

Anyways, you got my point...confrontation with love...even better.

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 10:14 PM
Seems like i am absorbing the hatred hidden beneath the superficial lovey dovey throwing around of .... Goodbye to this thread.

lifensoul
13-10-2015, 10:58 PM
Who said anything about hate and anger? Where did that come from?

Anyways, you got my point...confrontation with love...even better.

You see, its because he hates me and is angry with me. His love and his words mean nothing...his love is very very specific and is only for selected few, the rest are hated with a passion in the name of love or even worse, aimed to serve a self serving purpose all under the guise of it being the spiritual kind of love...the good thing for him is...he has company in many.

This time, i truly am out.

naturesflow
14-10-2015, 05:08 AM
[QUOTE=lifensoul]You see, its because he hates me and is angry with me. His love and his words mean nothing...his love is very very specific and is only for selected few, the rest are hated with a passion in the name of love or even worse, aimed to serve a self serving purpose all under the guise of it being the spiritual kind of love...the good thing for him is...he has company in many.



Hate is a strong emotion, do you really feel that from him towards you?

I always self reflect on how things feel regardless to open and let go of my own part caught up in conflict with others.

I know you told me your not entangled, but conflict in the external is a good reflection to let go and open beyond the conflict in self.

I don't think we have to love everyone the same, even if spirituality speaks of *loving unconditionally* The fact of reality is that not everyone wants to be loved the same way on the surface of life, even if at the core we might know its there to feel and know it can be so. Not everyone is ready, to receive love in the way some might receive it..so you will see reactions and many differences within the space of love when shared or not shared..

God-Like
14-10-2015, 07:01 AM
Hey there Dazzer no, not at all...I think you did nothing wrong and it was perfectly understandable that you asked directly. I was just giving you an outsider's perspective which is sometimes helpful when we're put on defensive and cannot step away from it.

Sometimes others respond but don't engage us directly or in the manner we expect. I.e., lifensoul was giving his general response to the "it's all about you" perspective which clearly struck him negatively because he misunderstood your specific context (Indian masters). He was provocative and questioned your intentions and understandably you felt it was impolite. Meanwhile you were asking him for a quoted line of text so that you could call him out on his approach broadly.

You want him to engage at the level of quoted words, and there is never an excuse for rudeness in speech, I completely agree. But that is not the level where he is engaging you...though I sympathise with you and I also understand that's hard to see when you've been put on defensive and yet you were still taking pains to be courteous. Trust me, we've all been there and I do understand.

It's often your motives that you must disclose in order to put things to rest...your underlying intentions. And really, I know your motives are good and so it should be a simple enough thing for you to do, should you so wish :hug3:

As I see it, lifensoul didn't respond with quotes of yours because it was your underlying intentions he disagreed with...or perhaps has gravely misunderstood, IMO. As with most misunderstandings, it is only an explanation of your true underlying intentions that will put his concerns to rest. And likely then it is only an apology for misunderstanding you from him that will put your concerns to rest.

First one and then the next, is what I was thinking. Because if you don't clarify that you don't hold narcisstic views in your life more broadly, then everything he has said is valid and cannot be put aside so easily. I thought you deserved a chance to explain yourself, even briefly in a few sentences even :smile:

From my outside perspective, I saw the conflict or misunderstanding may have been IMO rooted in the widespread usage of "it's all about me/others aren't real or don't matter or are secondary" in our mainstream culture of narcissism and he may have been reacting to that. It's a common enough mistake for one who's not as familiar with SF or Vedic traditions...

BUT frankly, we all have to ask ourselves if this spiritual exercise is expanding our consciousness -- given our highly individuated and ever more narcissistic culture. Or whether we already resonate with it and therefore find it convenient and gratifying to put forth this perspective, precisely because it allows us to wallow where we are.

If so, then the whole exercise is not doing its intended job...which was to help people individuate and own their power more fully in ancient to modern times in vastly different cultures which did not and still do not have the same focus on individuality.

But I digress...sorry :wink:



Jyotir's input is engaging and informative, as always!

And yes Daz, of course I sympathise with you having a disgruntled poster going at you...for the record, you know I don't approve of rudeness or discourtesy or name-calling. I myself also usually call others out on discourtesy and I agree that it's not the best way to build bridges. However, if there is a kernel of substance or truth to be addressed, it is always best to do so IMO. It's all a part of what we learn from others.


To lifensoul...
I think I have represented your case as best I understood it. But courtesy is always best, as a general rule.

And perhaps with someone like Daz, you need to listen to him too. The direct approach that he has said he responds to is that of direct questioning, rather than a more provocative or argumentative direct approach (which may work better with some others who enjoy mixing it up a bit).

Because, like many of us, otherwise he may be sidetracked or misdirected by what he sees as rudeness and discourtesy. So, like many of us, if he is upset or put on the defensive, then he may not be able to get at your underlying questions...which may be valid at their root.

I hope if you and Daz can each get the information you need, that you will see things differently and may be moved to mend fences :biggrin:

Peace & blessings all,
7L

Cheers for your thoughts, just ended up a little too weird for me . ..

I can see that you have tried to be the translator so to speak between two parties and you might of had your fingers a tad burn't lols, but in a way I was understanding the whole situation just fine .

I felt impelled to get at the heart of the situation but where there is a road block there is no way through at times .


x daz x

God-Like
14-10-2015, 07:24 AM
Confrontation is not always bad, sometimes it's about taking a courageous step and confronting a person upfront and possibly resolve things. It's necessary, sometimes.


I agree .

Sometimes in order to calm down a mad dog you need to be madder than the dog :biggrin: .


x daz x

Lorelyen
14-10-2015, 07:25 AM
Hi Passion :hug:

It's more like having a clear purpose, and this purpose doesn't involve confrontation of any type on this earth.

I have indeed fears, but confrontation with people/ideas is not one of them, it's just not in my personality anymore.

I reckon that's it. Some people here project fear and hate onto someone who simply avoids certain things because they don't like them. I'm surprised no one has jumped in to claim your very good taste in coffee springs from your fear of being coffee-deprived ! No look, I'm being serious here because a few posters have tried to map their own topology onto others...one of those situation against which one sometimes has to take a stand.

We all have fears but most people of a stable mentality get through their days without every avoidance reaction being an expression of fear or hate!

....

ocean breeze
14-10-2015, 07:59 AM
I reckon that's it. Some people here project fear and hate onto someone who simply avoids certain things because they don't like them. I'm surprised no one has jumped in to claim your very good taste in coffee springs from your fear of being coffee-deprived ! No look, I'm being serious here because a few posters have tried to map their own topology onto others...one of those situation against which one sometimes has to take a stand.

We all have fears but most people of a stable mentality get through their days without every avoidance reaction being an expression of fear or hate!

....

I sense fear in your post. You're clearly afraid of people pointing out your fears in front of everyone so this is your way of mounting a defense against it. HA! I got it all figured out. :tongue: (sorry, couldn't help myself. carry on.) lol

Lorelyen
14-10-2015, 08:31 AM
I sense fear in your post. You're clearly afraid of people pointing out your fears in front of everyone so this is your way of mounting a defense against it. HA! I got it all figured out. :tongue: (sorry, couldn't help myself. carry on.) lol

Hah! There you go... projection. Please point out my fears - I'd LOVE to find out what they are... but OK, today is frightening....I might have to do some work...oh dear me, that isn't nice at all.

But yeah, you're right - same with you. You must be terrified having to point to my terror. :D

(You sound in a very good mood.....how frightening!)

....

PassionOfHybrid
14-10-2015, 01:15 PM
I agree .

Sometimes in order to calm down a mad dog you need to be madder than the dog :biggrin: .


x daz x


Its called passion...comes from a place "love". Its not always anger.

It's powerful.

Lucyan28
14-10-2015, 02:00 PM
I reckon that's it. Some people here project fear and hate onto someone who simply avoids certain things because they don't like them. I'm surprised no one has jumped in to claim your very good taste in coffee springs from your fear of being coffee-deprived ! No look, I'm being serious here because a few posters have tried to map their own topology onto others...one of those situation against which one sometimes has to take a stand.

We all have fears but most people of a stable mentality get through their days without every avoidance reaction being an expression of fear or hate!

....

Hi Lorelyen :hug2:

I know exactly what you mean about projection.

I'm terrified of being coffee-deprived :rolleyes: well not that terrified, it would be a sad world for me without coffee certainly :icon_frown:

Lucyan28
14-10-2015, 02:09 PM
You see, its because he hates me and is angry with me. His love and his words mean nothing...his love is very very specific and is only for selected few, the rest are hated with a passion in the name of love or even worse, aimed to serve a self serving purpose all under the guise of it being the spiritual kind of love...the good thing for him is...he has company in many.

This time, i truly am out.

Hi Life, nobody hates you bro :redface: so take it easy dude :smile:

Here let me give you a big hug :hug2:

Jyotir
14-10-2015, 02:13 PM
@ 7luminaries, Thank you for the kind words in a number of posts.

@ God-Like, Likewise, and yes, pretty much on the same page - For the practical purposes of the discussion, I inferred (or intuited) that your term, ‘perspective’ in this context meant the differentiated cognition of any specific ‘instrumental’ consciousness.

@ Molearner, Thank you for the kind words as well. I also take note of your posts for the same reasons.

To follow up on your comment about ego - in the system I utilize - Sri Aurobindo’s (and I recommend Letters on Yoga, Vol. I, for more in depth definition and energetic characteristics of ego) - ‘ego’ is a shorthand term of reduction to encapsulate the concept of an amalgam of fluidly dynamic but separative ignorant (and therefore false) cognition, which in any combination of intrinsic components is distinguished as ‘unreal’ in comparison to faculties which have, and are awareness of more unitary (e.g., 'real') consciousness.

In this system, and in this regard it is not unique - ‘ego’ is comprised of 3 major components of consciousness: body (physical - gross and subtle), vital being (life-force, feelings, desires, emotions, etc.), and mind (concrete & higher) - each with characteristic range of expression and limitation in their respective untransformed states which would broadly qualify as resulting in ‘unreal’ (i.e., ignorant) cognition and action (and therefore substantially represents the surface 'personality').

Most human beings (especially those not spiritually aspiring) in ‘ordinary waking consciousness’, per focus are likely experiencing some blend of those three, and in further specific ranges which can change in a heartbeat, and for various durations - but each person usually has a predominant characteristic quality of combination, such as ‘mental/vital’.

It is the profusion of these types of so-called unreal consciousness which constitute the traditional ‘maya’ and therefore represent the common mired state of individual and world affairs - functioning in ignorance and unreality wilst assuming (a built-in feature of ego limitation - prejudgment) 'knowledge' and 'reality'. It’s not only unsatisfying, but can be downright destructive.

So we may choose our quality of unreality, but fortunately, we may also transcend both that choice and its consequence by deliberately choosing to aspire to the ‘real’ reality.



@ lifensoul: Suggesting per topic, that it is possible to be victorious in every single battle, and yet still lose the war.

@ :coffee2: , count me in!



~J

PassionOfHybrid
14-10-2015, 02:39 PM
hatred and anger is not real.

Love and compassion is real.

Lucyan28
14-10-2015, 02:42 PM
hatred and anger is not real.

Love and compassion is real.

You nailed it Passion :smile:

:coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

Gem
14-10-2015, 02:54 PM
Its called passion...comes from a place "love". Its not always anger.

It's powerful.

One of my favorite modern philosophers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MykZfESyA4

lifensoul
14-10-2015, 03:26 PM
Hi Life, nobody hates you bro :redface: so take it easy dude :smile:

Here let me give you a big hug :hug2:

I know you dont...but stop taking on other peoples projections so easily - for it becomes to your own when you project it forward on their behalf. And dont speak for others - especially when you take on their projections, it might just show your being dishonest about your own statement too...which might just be the case here, even. It just goes to show you really havent noticed anything about some forum members here....use your own wisdom when its not a question you ask instead of simply helping someone mislead the gullible into destroying own and others lives, just because it doesnt affect you. Or because someone else drops in to be abused for speaking the truth to be able to protect you or one like you. In real world, people like you cost innocent lives, generations of lives because of people similar to you - you owe it to them, even if you dont know then or never will, to keep your soul from being sold to be used as an evil tool.

lifensoul
14-10-2015, 03:28 PM
[QUOTE]



Hate is a strong emotion, do you really feel that from him towards you?

I always self reflect on how things feel regardless to open and let go of my own part caught up in conflict with others.

I know you told me your not entangled, but conflict in the external is a good reflection to let go and open beyond the conflict in self.

I don't think we have to love everyone the same, even if spirituality speaks of *loving unconditionally* The fact of reality is that not everyone wants to be loved the same way on the surface of life, even if at the core we might know its there to feel and know it can be so. Not everyone is ready, to receive love in the way some might receive it..so you will see reactions and many differences within the space of love when shared or not shared..

Try harder next time naturesflow. You failed this time.

lifensoul
14-10-2015, 03:32 PM
Cheers for your thoughts, just ended up a little too weird for me . ..

I can see that you have tried to be the translator so to speak between two parties and you might of had your fingers a tad burn't lols, but in a way I was understanding the whole situation just fine .

I felt impelled to get at the heart of the situation but where there is a road block there is no way through at times .


x daz x

Added a new set of tricks to your 'programming' the gullible bag, have you now? Involving an instant personality shift? or would a human turning to a dog be accurately be a shape shift (came across the word somewhere which seems to mean one animal form transforming into an other)?

lifensoul
14-10-2015, 03:37 PM
@ lifensoul: Suggesting per topic, that it is possible to be victorious in every single battle, and yet still lose the war



~J



I never lose eother, even if i do. Who cares about any victory?...thats the beauty of practising what one preaches, and not throwing words which one neither understand or means, around...especially when it comes to such a pursuit of purity of mind, body and soul as spirituality, either intentionally or if one ends up in there due to mere circumstances.

Jyotir
14-10-2015, 03:49 PM
Then 'all's fair in love and war', lifensoul, and since the pure soul never dies, and therefore is inherently victorious, all's well as well. Life seems to afford plenty of opportunity to practice that as an eternal preparation, and there is beauty within and without accordingly.

~ J

lifensoul
14-10-2015, 05:02 PM
Then 'all's fair in love and war', lifensoul, and since the pure soul never dies, and therefore is inherently victorious, all's well as well. Life seems to afford plenty of opportunity to practice that as an eternal preparation, and there is beauty within and without accordingly.

~ J


We seem to have a misunderstanding jyotir. All is not fair in love and war. Principle-lessness (my own term, but i guess you get the gist) is not the principle of spiriuality. Purity of soul doesnt come from lack and practice of good ethics, morals and principles. It comes from religious use of those in ones everyday life.

You are not a dead pure soul, neither am i. We are here living as humans....having a pure soul but an evil body mind, doesnt inherently make one victorious in terms of spiritual pursuit. neither all remain ns well...the history of humanity proves this....follow the wrong direction, it destroys all.

Plenty of oppurtunity to learn, true, that doesnt inherently make a human a pure spiritual being...one reaches that stage only after learning, practising to perfection to the point that the being doesnt exist without the learnt lesson. Definitely not merely due to the oppurtunity...beauty within will never be beauty without as long as one follows the principle-lessness of all is fair in love and war. For love is love...it doesnt seek to be unfair to another to be fair for itself..if it does, its not love.

Oh...i havent done english literature for my degree...so please, do respond in simple, straightforward, simple worded reponse, if you do. Thank you.

Molearner
14-10-2015, 06:13 PM
[QUOTE=Jyotir][COLOR="Navy"]
Thank you for the kind words as well. I also take note of your posts for the same reasons.

[INDENT]To follow up on your comment about ego - in the system I utilize - Sri Aurobindo’s (and I recommend Letters on Yoga, Vol. I, for more in depth definition and energetic characteristics of ego) - ‘ego’ is a shorthand term of reduction to encapsulate the concept of an amalgam of fluidly dynamic but separative ignorant (and therefore false) cognition, which in any combination of intrinsic components is distinguished as ‘unreal’ in comparison to faculties which have, [I]and are awareness of more unitary (e.g., 'real') consciousness.

In this system, and in this regard it is not unique - ‘ego’ is comprised of 3 major components of consciousness: body (physical - gross and subtle), vital being (life-force, feelings, desires, emotions, etc.), and mind (concrete & higher) - each with characteristic range of expression and limitation in their respective untransformed states which would broadly qualify as resulting in ‘unreal’ (i.e., ignorant) cognition and action (and therefore substantially represents the surface 'personality').

Most human beings (especially those not spiritually aspiring) in ‘ordinary waking consciousness’, per focus are likely experiencing some blend of those three, and in further specific ranges which can change in a heartbeat, and for various durations - but each person usually has a predominant characteristic quality of combination, such as ‘mental/vital’.

It is the profusion of these types of so-called unreal consciousness which constitute the traditional ‘maya’ and therefore represent the common mired state of individual and world affairs - functioning in ignorance and unreality wilst assuming (a built-in feature of ego limitation - prejudgment) 'knowledge' and 'reality'. It’s not only unsatisfying, but can be downright destructive.

So we may choose our quality of unreality, but fortunately, we may also transcend both that choice and its consequence by deliberately choosing to aspire to the ‘real’ reality.

Jyotir,

This is excellent information. I now feel that my library is lacking something of genuine importance. I realize that for the sake of brevity that I have been using 'ego' rather generically albeit probably with a subconscious understanding of the 3 aspect delineation of Aurobindo. That differentiation is illuminative. If, for example, we could understand that our predominant characteristic is 'mental-mind-intellect'(and I agree that likely we exhibit a combination of the 3 aspects) then I can understand the limitations that the ego imposes on all of us. Many of us have fallen into the habit of trusting our mind or intellect as the most worthy arbitrator in the forming of our most closely held beliefs and concepts. In this sense, the ability of the mind to cleverly rationalize might serve as a way of excusing or reinforcing the other 2 aspects of the ego as outlined by Aurobindo of 'body' and 'vital being'.

As you might know I have a great interest in scripture and I can easily see that this stream of wisdom can echo and help illuminate the wisdom of scripture. I am thinking specifically of scriptures such as....'the wisdom of the world is foolishness', 'do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your minds', 'whoever loses his life will find it'........etc. and many more:)

Mr Interesting
14-10-2015, 06:14 PM
One of my favourite modern philosophers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MykZfESyA4

That's a brilliant little spear of destiny, just to add a small poetic misappropriation to clear the mists and focus the clearing of heart, there Gem.

We could quite easily dismiss the man as he obviously hasn't been doing his yoga as his inner electricity is arcing out through the joints and muscles of his fibrousness but, I for one, tend to be more trusting of those conduits almost in disguise as it were.

naturesflow
14-10-2015, 11:14 PM
[QUOTE=naturesflow]

Try harder next time naturesflow. You failed this time.

I wasn't feeling like I wanted or had to conquer anything really. I just be me and share whatever I want to share. I do it and let go.

As for trying harder I don't have that need. I just enjoy sharing.

So...
What did I fail?

engellstein
15-10-2015, 02:15 AM
In response to the OP, I understand how people say things are illusion but I think they take it too far. I believe in empirical reality and subjective interpretation.

When some say things are illusion they usually say that something only exists if you are observing it and disappears if you look away. That's fine on the quantum level of existence but is ridiculous on the macroscopic level we see. Things and people don't pop in and out of existence just because there is or isn't an observer. Otherwise there would have been a notable change in how the world works after cameras were invented and security systems were installed all over the world and the NSA started snooping on the world. The world hasn't changed, therefore that tells me macroscopic things don't need an observer to exist.

Then there is subjective "reality" - which isn't "reality", it's interpretation. If someone gets beat up and one observer is happy seeing it and another is sad, that is happening because each observer is interpreting the same objective, empirical event differently. And why wouldn't they? Different perspectives bring forth different internal stories which create different reactions.

When people say you create your own reality they're saying that if you tell yourself different stories about life you will focus on different parts of it and whatever you focus on becomes more abundant in your life. You can live in poverty stricken areas and have financial abundance if that's what you focus on. Everyone else is focusing on poverty and keeps getting more of it.

While that is happening a hurricane can come through and destroy the whole city. It certainly isn't an illusion. If you are still focused on financial abundance the universe will arrange itself so that your asset value will meet or exceed anything that was destroyed. It can happen in a million different ways. Maybe you just purchased that insurance policy, maybe you just moved all of it out of there and sold the property because you found another that was nicer which was outside the hurricane destruction zone. etc, etc.

If you focus on happiness you can enter a business where that one guy that's always cranky works and either your paths won't cross or you will meet up and you will draw out the good parts from him, while the next guy in line gets the stink eye from him because he wasn't focused on positivity. Or he will tell you off but it will go in one ear and out the other. You aren't focused on it so you weren't even paying attention to his attitude, only the good parts of the interaction.

This is awesome to transform your own personal experience, and it'll even influence those around you towards a higher vibration just by virtue of being around you. It's contagious to some extent. But you will never eliminate poverty or war or child abuductions or murder or injustice just because you choose to focus on and get more of the good. All the muck is still out there, but the people that are aligned with it are the ones experiencing it.

The only thing you can do to help the situation is to let your light shine vigorously and lift the mindset of others up through example and education. The education part only works on those aligned with what you're teaching. So you don't force anything on anyone. You simply make it available and whoever is ready will get the message and add one more bright light to the community.

In theory, eventually, the whole world will be transformed by that method. I don't really see that happening anytime soon, so instead of worrying about the world being perfect I just focus on living a good life, do what I can to add a little good wherever I go, and let that good do whatever it's going to do.

Objective reality and subjective interpretation.

God-Like
15-10-2015, 07:02 AM
Added a new set of tricks to your 'programming' the gullible bag, have you now? Involving an instant personality shift? or would a human turning to a dog be accurately be a shape shift (came across the word somewhere which seems to mean one animal form transforming into an other)?

No set of tricks be it new or old, I wanted to get to the heart of your disrespect and you wouldn't let me in . You wouldn't elaborate nor point to what I said in conversation to naturesflow that caused your outburst .

Your only suggestion was that I was under the impression that only I exist and life means nothing . I said you are misinterpreting my posts and for you to show me where I said that .

You do nothing other than bark and whine without actually owning up up to your expression of disrespect and you do not admit to your own misinterpretation of my words .

While you do that and you continue to go down this twisted route of interpretation you are bound by that very expression and denial .

You went on the offensive from the very word go and you still haven't owned that .

Until you admit that was an unwise move on your account you will keep digging a hole and you will continue to bark .

So put your money where your mouth is and show me the foundation of your outburst . I betcha my bottom dollar you won't find anything other than your misinterpretation .

x daz x

Gem
15-10-2015, 08:43 AM
This is the consequence of using a 'you' language. It brings about an assertive and accusatory tone. 'You language' is an affront that will inevitably provoke defensive positions, and as such, it tends to be derogatory more often that it is complimentary. It has a way of making speech unkind, and can easily result in hurt feelings.

If, on the other hand, persons are given the space to speak for or express themselves, the speech arises from the I and people speak from where they are at, rather than this ventriloquist act where persons speak from 'your' position. Such dialogue can't be in assertions or accusations and won't promote defensive positions. It elicits more meaningful dialogue and promotes kind speech. It doesn't have to be that fake lovey dovey bulldust that is pretended in spiritual communities, and it can involve hard conversations that might be uncomfortable, but 'I language' is inherently respectful and it's the only sincere dialectic.

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 09:08 AM
No set of tricks be it new or old, I wanted to get to the heart of your disrespect and you wouldn't let me in . You wouldn't elaborate nor point to what I said in conversation to naturesflow that caused your outburst .

Your only suggestion was that I was under the impression that only I exist and life means nothing . I said you are misinterpreting my posts and for you to show me where I said that .

You do nothing other than bark and whine without actually owning up up to your expression of disrespect and you do not admit to your own misinterpretation of my words .

While you do that and you continue to go down this twisted route of interpretation you are bound by that very expression and denial .

You went on the offensive from the very word go and you still haven't owned that .

Until you admit that was an unwise move on your account you will keep digging a hole and you will continue to bark .

So put your money where your mouth is and show me the foundation of your outburst . I betcha my bottom dollar you won't find anything other than your misinterpretation .

x daz x

You are the height of the most callous, unethical, arrogant of being so, in that you simply have not an ounce of self respect and a tounge that will spew anything to cover its self up and then force innocents to take up your projections and destroy themselves. Not a rare occurance in real lfe. no wonder you are so confsed. Absolute, profound and deep 'darkness' as they might call here.

You will bet your bottom dollar on anything that suits you...at the cost of eerything else and everyone else...to be fair to you, you aint alone. Neither here nor in the rest of the world...perhaps another reason you dare to be so arrogant of your deep darkness while putting on a deceptive face of the other extreme end of the spectrum, i bet you are loved and pampered in unconditional love to the extreme darkness, shared with and amongst the same...

May god protect any innocent or gullible good human if they might cross the your path and that of the likes of you (of whom many are hidden here and exist, literally creating the deceptive reality in the world and ruling it throug abuse, enforced fear an the likes), even if it literally just walking on the other side of the stree, oblivious to the dangerous projections that they might be coerced into accepting, by whatever means possible.

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 09:09 AM
This is the consequence of using a 'you' language. It brings about an assertive and accusatory tone. 'You language' is an affront that will inevitably provoke defensive positions, and as such, it tends to be derogatory more often that it is complimentary. It has a way of making speech unkind, and can easily result in hurt feelings.

If, on the other hand, persons are given the space to speak for or express themselves, the speech arises from the I and people speak from where they are at, rather than this ventriloquist act where persons speak from 'your' position. Such dialogue can't be in assertions or accusations and won't promote defensive positions. It elicits more meaningful dialogue and promotes kind speech. It doesn't have to be that fake lovey dovey bulldust that is pretended in spiritual communities, and it can involve hard conversations that might be uncomfortable, but 'I language' is inherently respectful and it's the only sincere dialectic.


I shall speak for myself gem. It has nothing to do with using the word you.

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 09:17 AM
[QUOTE=lifensoul]

I wasn't feeling like I wanted or had to conquer anything really. I just be me and share whatever I want to share. I do it and let go.

As for trying harder I don't have that need. I just enjoy sharing.

So...
What did I fail?

You didnt get the response you might have expected, did you? That way. Hats off to both of us if you did.

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 09:21 AM
Then 'all's fair in love and war', lifensoul, and since the pure soul never dies, and therefore is inherently victorious, all's well as well. Life seems to afford plenty of opportunity to practice that as an eternal preparation, and there is beauty within and without accordingly.

~ J

Forgot to state obvious. You speak of love and war jyotir. I speak of purity of soul in human life. Wo opposing things..love of the pure soul cannot be unfair for its ownselfishness. War is never fair. How very strange that you compare two opposing ends to be the same.

Lorelyen
15-10-2015, 09:58 AM
^^^ I seem to remember you were going to leave this thread.


This time, i truly am out.

What happened?

God-Like
15-10-2015, 11:12 AM
You are the height of the most callous, unethical, arrogant of being so, in that you simply have not an ounce of self respect and a tounge that will spew anything to cover its self up and then force innocents to take up your projections and destroy themselves. Not a rare occurance in real lfe. no wonder you are so confsed. Absolute, profound and deep 'darkness' as they might call here.

You will bet your bottom dollar on anything that suits you...at the cost of eerything else and everyone else...to be fair to you, you aint alone. Neither here nor in the rest of the world...perhaps another reason you dare to be so arrogant of your deep darkness while putting on a deceptive face of the other extreme end of the spectrum, i bet you are loved and pampered in unconditional love to the extreme darkness, shared with and amongst the same...

May god protect any innocent or gullible good human if they might cross the your path and that of the likes of you (of whom many are hidden here and exist, literally creating the deceptive reality in the world and ruling it throug abuse, enforced fear an the likes), even if it literally just walking on the other side of the stree, oblivious to the dangerous projections that they might be coerced into accepting, by whatever means possible.

Your still resorting to insults and disrespectful comments . You spend more time doing this than actually solidifying your foundation for doing so .

Do you actually acknowledge that you have not actually pointed out anything that can substantiate your claims because as of yet you haven't supplied one bit of genuine evidence to support your claim .

No matter how loud you shout, no matter how rude and abusive you get when you look in the mirror that is all you will see .

Keep digging yourself that hole buddy ..


x daz x

naturesflow
15-10-2015, 11:23 AM
[QUOTE=naturesflow]

You didnt get the response you might have expected, did you? That way. Hats off to both of us if you did.

Um I had no expectations on even getting a reply.

As I shared, I just share where my heart takes me, the rest is out of my hands.

And in yours. And they are your hands typing.

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 11:27 AM
Your still resorting to insults and disrespectful comments . You spend more time doing this than actually solidifying your foundation for doing so .

Do you actually acknowledge that you have not actually pointed out anything that can substantiate your claims because as of yet you haven't supplied one bit of genuine evidence to support your claim .

No matter how loud you shout, no matter how rude and abusive you get when you look in the mirror that is all you will see .

Keep digging yourself that hole buddy ..


x daz x

Did you murder your soul or do you tell yourself you are even capable of doing so?

I aint digging anything or resorting to anything...you doing it yourself...except that you are pretty confident of having murdered/tortured your conscience and soul into not seeing/watching/noticing/recording what you are doing. Thats your problem...as much as you try to do the same to others too, just to give yourself the pleasure of self deception.

And please...i am not responsible for you ( 'you' as in your choice of murdering your soul or assuming you might be capable of doing so, is not my responsibility, neither is anyones, nor can you ever force it upon another, even if you murder, figuratively or even literally speaking, each one of those who might refuse to accept your irresponsibilies arising from the depths of your 'darkness', as theirs)...neither will i ever be...its absolutely impossible you see.

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 11:34 AM
Um I had no expectations on even getting a reply.

As I shared, I just share where my heart takes me, the rest is out of my hands.

And in yours. And they are your hands typing.

Wow!! My hands are, fortunately, not dissociated from my heart naturesflow. Which bit was your heart sharing and which bit was your hands typing? Why on earth, i mean what absolute personal benefit does such a dissociation serve you? I mean just wow....his thread...and the revelations...that too from those who go around placing themselves on a throne. Oh my goodness! (I mean i didnt expect this from you, which is the reason i am so very surprised...but i guess...no wonder...no wonder).

naturesflow
15-10-2015, 11:47 AM
Wow!! My hand are, fortunately, not dissociated from my heart naturesflow. Which bit was your heart sharing and which bit was your hands typing? Why on earth, i mean what absolute personal benefit does such a dissociation serve you? I mean just wow....his thread...and the revelations...that too from those who go around placing themselves on a throne. Oh my goodness! (I mean i didnt expect this from you, which is the reason i am so very surprised...but i guess...no wonder...no wonder).

Are you twisting words. I don't mind.
What revelations..lol

What throne do you see? lol

You expect you get...hehehe

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 11:53 AM
Are you twisting words. I don't mind.
What revelations..lol

What throne do you see? lol

You expect you get...hehehe

Is that your hand typing or your heart speaking naturesflow? I will be in shock for days to come...wow

naturesflow
15-10-2015, 11:57 AM
Is that your hand typing or your heart speaking naturesflow?



Do you think we speak from the heart, or is that a saying related to being open and honest?

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 12:00 PM
Do you think we speak from the heart, or is that a saying related to being open and honest?


What about this one? Hand typing or heart speaking? I really want to add another part of human anatomy, atleast, to the options. Is it your right hand or left hand typing naturesflow?

naturesflow
15-10-2015, 12:00 PM
The heart is being itself doing its thing in my body, heart speak is just a figure of speech. Not sure why we identify with it in the way we do....

naturesflow
15-10-2015, 12:01 PM
What about this one? Hand typing or heart speaking? I really want to add another part of human anatomy, atleast, to the options. Is it your right hand or left hand typing naturesflow?

I use both. Which other part, do you wish to add?

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 12:02 PM
The heart is being itself doing its thing in my body, heart speak is just a figure of speech. Not sure why we identify with it in the way we do....

What about this? Rt hand? Lt hand? Heart?

naturesflow
15-10-2015, 12:03 PM
What about this? Rt hand? Lt hand? Heart?

Where is this going lol

naturesflow
15-10-2015, 12:05 PM
I know where I am going...To bed...Goodnight and thanks for the chat.

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 12:06 PM
Where is this going lol


...............................this?

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 12:07 PM
I know where I am going...To bed...Goodnight and thanks for the chat.


What about this? Which part of the human anatomy is speaking here?

God-Like
15-10-2015, 12:10 PM
Did you murder your soul or do you tell yourself you are even capable of doing so?

I aint digging anything or resorting to anything...you doing it yourself...except that you are pretty confident of having murdered/tortured your conscience and soul into not seeing/watching/noticing/recording what you are doing. Thats your problem...as much as you try to do the same to others too, just to give yourself the pleasure of self deception.

And please...i am not responsible for you in anyway whatsoever, neither will i ever be...its absolutely impossible you see.

Do you not see that you resort to abusive posts and you do not substantiate your claims based upon such abuse .

Do you not see that for as long as you do not address the reason for your expression you are no nearer having any foundation for such abuse .

You keep on avoiding my questions based upon this .

Your stance is build upon the avoidance of your looking at your expression and reasons for being as you are .

When you accept that your whole abusive tone and expression was built upon your misunderstandings of my posts to naturesflow then you will have no grounds to continue as you are doing so .


x daz x

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 12:20 PM
Do you not see that you resort to abusive posts and you do not substantiate your claims based upon such abuse .

Do you not see that for as long as you do not address the reason for your expression you are no nearer having any foundation for such abuse .

You keep on avoiding my questions based upon this .

Your stance is build upon the avoidance of your looking at your expression and reasons for being as you are .

When you accept that your whole abusive tone and expression was built upon your misunderstandings of my posts to naturesflow then you will have no grounds to continue as you are doing so .


x daz x

I was just about to edit the last paragraph in my most recent post in response to yours...you as in your choice of murdering your soul or assuming you might be capable of doing so, is not my responsibility, neither is anyones, nor can you ever force it upon another, even if you murder, figuratively or even literally speaking, each one of those who might refuse to accept your irresponsibilies arising from the depths of your 'darkness', as theirs. I have done it now.

God-Like
15-10-2015, 01:09 PM
I was just about to edit the last paragraph in my most recent post in response to yours...you as in your choice of murdering your soul or assuming you might be capable of doing so, is not my responsibility, neither is anyones, nor can you ever force it upon another, even if you murder, figuratively or even literally speaking, each one of those who might refuse to accept your irresponsibilies arising from the depths of your 'darkness', as theirs. I have done it now.


Try and refrain from speaking of murdered souls and arising depths of darkness and simply look at your expression .

Yet again all you have done is ignore the opportunity to address what is at the heart of your abusive ways and directed your thoughts back around to murdered souls and darkness .

Don't you think that your avoidance tactic is getting a bit thin on the ground .

x daz x

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 01:44 PM
Try and refrain from speaking of murdered souls and arising depths of darkness and simply look at your expression .

Yet again all you have done is ignore the opportunity to address what is at the heart of your abusive ways and directed your thoughts back around to murdered souls and darkness .

Don't you think that your avoidance tactic is getting a bit thin on the ground .

x daz x

You ordering again! Man, you dont even listen to your own soul (that is if its alive there amidst all that darkness and all those projections) and go around ordering others? Another impossibility. No wonder.

Nope...impossible for my ground to become thin in the remotest manner. You bear your own burdens.

God-Like
15-10-2015, 01:48 PM
Nope...impossible for my ground to become thin in the remotest manner. You bear your own burdens.

Then why the continual reluctance to answer my questions based around why you originally posted an abusive post?

Your foundation of abuse is based upon that reason is it not?

And what is that reason . I have asked you at least half a dozen times .

Do us a favour and in your next reply simply state what it is ..


x daz x

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 02:19 PM
I added a few lines to my previous post, before your instant repeat abusive attack, but i shall repeat those lines in other words.

You will need a bit of alive soul of your own to be able to listen to the answers to your questions. Your focus however is on repeating the same question to shut the mouth of your own soul.

Fortunately for me, there is nothing i can do if your desire is merely to attack others and abuse them with your own issues and through repeatetion of questions, which you clarified yourself earlier have a hidden agenda. Thats youe problem .(Soul/spirit/inner self or whatever other spiritual junk words you want to label it).

God-Like
15-10-2015, 02:36 PM
I added a few lines to my previous post, before your instant repeat abusive attack, but i shall repeat those lines in other words.

You will need a bit of alive soul of your own to be able to listen to the answers to your questions. Your focus however is on repeating the same question to shut the mouth of your own soul.

Fortunately for me, there is nothing i can do if your desire is merely to attack others and abuse them with your own issues and through repeatetion of questions, which you clarified yourself earlier have a hidden agenda. Thats youe problem .(Soul/spirit/inner self or whatever other spiritual junk words you want to label it).

So where are your answers written in black and white so I can read them .




x daz x

PassionOfHybrid
15-10-2015, 02:41 PM
What is the point of any of this, may I ask?

Jyotir
15-10-2015, 02:44 PM
What is the point of any of this, may I ask?


Compulsive engagement of the unreal?

lifensoul
15-10-2015, 03:05 PM
So where are your answers written in black and white so I can read them.




x daz x

In each and every single response of mine to your posts and to the posts of those who are head over heels in love with your dark abusive destructive tactics.

Lorelyen
15-10-2015, 03:18 PM
What is the point of any of this, may I ask?

Aspergers, I suspect. It's the undertext to this topic.

loopylucid
15-10-2015, 03:38 PM
Aspergers, I suspect. It's the undertext to this topic.

Interesting, as having worked closely with Aspergers and Autistic spectrums for well over a decade, it wouldn't of been something I would of even contemplated as the undertext here!

Antagonistic however, out of all the 'A' words, I would of thought of as a possibility!

Loopy

Lucyan28
15-10-2015, 04:10 PM
What is the point of any of this, may I ask?

:laughing7: Hi Passion, now I wonder what do you think about some confrontations, definitely some of them do not have a point, do they? :wink:

We must know when to engage in a confrontation, and when do not to engage.

Any thoughts dude?

PassionOfHybrid
15-10-2015, 04:39 PM
:laughing7: Hi Passion, now I wonder what do you think about some confrontations, definitely some of them do not have a point, do they? :wink:

We must know when to engage in a confrontation, and when do not to engage.

Any thoughts dude?

Your original argument, was that you disliked confrontation, in general.Now it's suddenly changed.

In our last discussion, you ended up agreeing with the point I was trying to make, but I don't think you realized.Which leads me to think that you may have felt backed to a corner a bit, and was just defending yourself(not your original point). You've made too many assumptions about my point of view, and I don't know where they're coming from.\

You even went on to assume that my idea of good confrontation was "anger and hatred", where did that come from?

You're not validating yourself, here, it's more like a contradiction...to be honest. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. Just pure assumptions.

7luminaries
15-10-2015, 04:46 PM
Aspergers, I suspect. It's the undertext to this topic.

Here are some informative blurbs on Aspergers from the following site, where you can read many pages:
http://www.medicinenet.com/asperger_syndrome/page2.htm

Asperger's syndrome is named for Dr. Hans Asperger, an Austrian pediatrician, who first described the condition in 1944. Dr. Asperger described four boys who showed "
-a lack of empathy,
-little ability to form friendships,
-one-sided conversation,
-intense absorption in a special interest,
-and clumsy movements."

...many of the traits exhibited by people with Asperger's syndrome can also occur because of intellectual giftedness or even attention deficit disorder (ADD).


I just want to say that the traits of the bolded text above are largely common or are common enough to some degree in many very young children.
It appears that there is a lack of developmental flexibility and adaptation (from a variety of individual and/or environmental sources) that appears to cause a delay, obstruction, or misdirection in the natural progression of one's human development.

Additionally, the lack of empathy is common to other mental illnesses too, such as psychopathy. IMO, it is the lack of empathy and the one-sidedness toward others and re: their social orientation generally that is most difficult and/or damaging (even dangerous) to the rest of us in any interactions with those who lack empathy or for whom empathic development is poor or limited. Without a well-developed sense of empathy, one will tend to see others as two-dimensional and as less than fully human.

When one dehumanises others (even due to a mental illness or developmental irregularity), it is a serious concern for others and for society at large, and there is no easy way around it. It must be honestly acknowledged before it can ever be humanely addressed.

This is the danger of not just dealing with those not only those who are truly ill in varying degrees and need help (from functional Aspergers on the autism spectrum to extreme psychopaths), but in particular of more broadly socially sanctioning or encouraging behaviours along the narcissistic and psychopathic spectrum in Western society.

Peace & blessings,
7L

PassionOfHybrid
15-10-2015, 04:53 PM
What really disturbs me is how they label these people, just because they don't think the same way "normal" people do. They think different, simple as that.To be normal is to be "blind".

Waste our time trying put someone in a category, and not pay attention to our own actions and thinking patterns.

Gem
15-10-2015, 05:01 PM
Just thought I'd mention that Asperges no longer exists as a diagnosis, and what used to be called 'Asperges' is now part of the Autism Spectrum.

Lucyan28
15-10-2015, 05:08 PM
Your original argument, was that you disliked confrontation, in general.Now it's suddenly changed.

In our last discussion, you ended up agreeing with the point I was trying to make, but I don't think you realized.Which leads me to think that you may have felt backed to a corner a bit, and was just defending yourself(not your original point). You've made too many assumptions about my point of view, and I don't know where they're coming from.\

You even went on to assume that my idea of good confrontation was "anger and hatred", where did that come from?

You're not validating yourself, here, it's more like a contradiction...to be honest. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. Just pure assumptions.

Indeed this is so interesting, let's say that I'm eager to learn when the opportunity shows up =) you know it is good to adapt to the new circumstances always, our mind is not just a narrowed square.

Now I know the value of confrontation, it has some valid points which are good and essential, nevertheless I prefer to be a lover not a fighter (confrontation guy?)

About the anger and hatred thing, it was about Life and God discussion, I perceived a lot of hostile comments from both parties (it is my perception-opinion)

PassionOfHybrid
15-10-2015, 05:08 PM
Just thought I'd mention that Asperges no longer exists as a diagnosis, and what used to be called 'Asperges' is now part of the Autism Spectrum.

Well, thanks for sharing that.

7luminaries
15-10-2015, 05:59 PM
What really disturbs me is how they label these people, just because they don't think the same way "normal" people do. They think different, simple as that.To be normal is to be "blind".

Waste our time trying put someone in a category, and not pay attention to our own actions and thinking patterns.

I agree it's not about the label per se.
These are just clinical descriptions for us to better understand what is meant by the term Aspergers or mild autism.

Thanks to Gem for mentioning that it is now referenced as being on the mild end of the autism spectrum (AS).

The key point I intended is not about those with AS being different in whatever way we all are, but that it is a condition that is beyond one's control to have or not have. Compassion and accurate diagnosis are both critical to helping those with this condition or any other which requires a particular type of treatment geared to the individual, so that they can function at their highest level.

The other reality is that when one lacks empathy, for whatever reason, it is something that the rest of us must acknowledge, for our own safety and wellbeing, as much as for theirs.

BTW...there are many other conditions or personality disorders that may also overlap with the autism spectrum (AS), including narcissism and avoidant attachment personality disorder (PD). These may be separate from or in addition to AS in a given individual, it all depends -- and I leave that to the professionals. Certainly many who have narcissistic or avoidant attachment PD do not suffer from AS, of course. But some of these personality disorders often either begin and/or are first evident even in infancy or early childhood, as a result of individual and/or environmental conditions (such as neglect or abuse) and the child's adaptive responses.

AS, which is thought to have a strong genetic component or predisposition, also is typically first noticed in infancy or early childhood.

Lastly, narcissistic behaviours (which orient toward self-gratification and indulgence of one's own needs at all costs, and which often display a lack of empathy toward others) are broadly and extensively promoted in modern society in recent decades, and are ever more normative ("everyone's doing it").
We are encouraging lack of empathy as a normative mode of behavior toward one another even when not ill or suffering from an ingrained or lifelong PD.
And that is another piece of our social reality that affects us all, and like any problem must first be acknowledged before we can humanely address it.

Basically, our society needs a 12-step intervention to address our blatant, exploitative, commercial and often quite cynical indulgence of narcissistic and psychopathic behaviours and tendencies...and likewise, we also need to better care for those truly suffering from mental illnesses and ingrained PDs.
However, doing this with compassion requires an empathy and a fully realised humanity which is in ever shorter supply at this time.

Fancy that, eh? It's a right pickle which requires those of us who behave narcissistically by choice, out of habit, for convenience, or because "everyone else is doing it" all grow (up) spiritually as individuals and as a society and treat ourselves and one other more humanely and with greater love, so that in turn we may better care for and love those who are truly ill, who lack our resources, and who deeply need our help as well as our empathy.

Peace & blessings,
7L

7luminaries
15-10-2015, 07:02 PM
Cheers for your thoughts, just ended up a little too weird for me . ..

I can see that you have tried to be the translator so to speak between two parties and you might of had your fingers a tad burn't lols, but in a way I was understanding the whole situation just fine .

I felt impelled to get at the heart of the situation but where there is a road block there is no way through at times .


x daz x

Hey there Dazzer not a problem -- all fingers intact & in good shape.
I hope your empathy is still intact all round :) and if so...

I hope that you can extend it and your focus generally toward addressing the topics I discussed in my posts right above this, particularly relating to AS, mental illness, and narcissism/avoidant attachment/other PDs and the relationship of these conditions to certain commonly displayed behaviours:

-a lack of empathy,
-one-sidedness in social interactions,
-difficulties forming friendships,
-ingrained perceptions that broadly devalue or dehumanise others,
-etc.

I think great compassion is required for these persons...but they too need to be aware of their situation, and far, far too many are not. They have not been properly diagnosed, &/or they have not received the proper therapy, support, and tools that they require.

On the other hand, many of us in society today simply have adopted these behaviours and mindsets toward others out of amoral selfishness and sloth, instant gratification or convenience, and the fact that is it simply increasingly normative to behave in such a fashion ("everyone's doing it").

I think we need to be critically honest with ourselves and with one another and really examine the reasons why we behave as we do, or have behaved as we have done.

If we need help, we need to seek it, and we need to actively pursue our best interests in our treatment...and likewise, those in our lives who care for us and interact with us also need to be aware and to be supportive. This is so that those of us who need help can function at our highest level and ALSO so that those around us are not traumatised or treated poorly as a result of our untreated conditions and our resultant behaviours.

As for the rest of us, who may behave narcissistically but who are not suffering from a condition like autism, or who are not clinically ill (psychotic, etc) or who are not suffering from an ingrained personality disorder (narcissistic PD or avoidant attachment PD) --- IMO we need to call ourselves and one another out on our behaviours...it's the authentically loving thing to do :hug3:

What are your thoughts/responses to this, Daz?
And thanks in advance for your time.

Peace & blessings,
7L

PassionOfHybrid
15-10-2015, 07:15 PM
I agree it's not about the label per se.
These are just clinical descriptions for us to better understand what is meant by the term Aspergers or mild autism.

Thanks to Gem for mentioning that it is now referenced as being on the mild end of the autism spectrum (AS).

The key point I intended is not about those with AS being different in whatever way we all are, but that it is a condition that is beyond one's control to have or not have. Compassion and accurate diagnosis are both critical to helping those with this condition or any other which requires a particular type of treatment geared to the individual, so that they can function at their highest level.

The other reality is that when one lacks empathy, for whatever reason, it is something that the rest of us must acknowledge, for our own safety and wellbeing, as much as for theirs.

BTW...there are many other conditions or personality disorders that may also overlap with the autism spectrum (AS), including narcissism and avoidant attachment personality disorder (PD). These may be separate from or in addition to AS in a given individual, it all depends -- and I leave that to the professionals. Certainly many who have narcissistic or avoidant attachment PD do not suffer from AS, of course. But some of these personality disorders often either begin and/or are first evident even in infancy or early childhood, as a result of individual and/or environmental conditions (such as neglect or abuse) and the child's adaptive responses.

AS, which is thought to have a strong genetic component or predisposition, also is typically first noticed in infancy or early childhood.

Lastly, narcissistic behaviours (which orient toward self-gratification and indulgence of one's own needs at all costs, and which often display a lack of empathy toward others) are broadly and extensively promoted in modern society in recent decades, and are ever more normative ("everyone's doing it").
We are encouraging lack of empathy as a normative mode of behavior toward one another even when not ill or suffering from an ingrained or lifelong PD.
And that is another piece of our social reality that affects us all, and like any problem must first be acknowledged before we can humanely address it.

Basically, our society needs a 12-step intervention to address our blatant, exploitative, commercial and often quite cynical indulgence of narcissistic and psychopathic behaviours and tendencies...and likewise, we also need to better care for those truly suffering from mental illnesses and ingrained PDs.
However, doing this with compassion requires an empathy and a fully realized humanity which is in ever shorter supply at this time.

Fancy that, eh? It's a right pickle which requires those of us who behave narcissistically by choice, out of habit, for convenience, or because "everyone else is doing it" all grow (up) spiritually as individuals and as a society and treat ourselves and one other more humanely and with greater love, so that in turn we may better care for and love those who are truly ill, who lack our resources, and who deeply need our help as well as our empathy.

Peace & blessings,
7L

People are influenced by what they eat, what they watch, and they're environment.So, perhaps, where looking in the wrong places for solutions. Eliminate a source, save another resource.Which will at least reduce things at a significant rate. You know, a child with autism is more alert and astute when they don't watch t.v(which over-stimulates them, and ruins their senses...also giving them ADD on top of their diagnosed autism. Also when they have a good healthy diet it also can improve them a lot.The medicine prescribed by doctors is unnecessary.

Abuse, abuse can cause what you call "personality disorders". These are simply mental complexes, that can be reversed with some kind of serious therapy. It's possible.

And, since when was there a empathy requisite to be considered "mentally stable".

Change, starts with oneself.

Although, I see what you're saying. But, the person is not the disorder. And a lot of people have some kind of chemical imbalance going on in there body.

These issues have several factors. The food they eat, might not be tolerated by their digestive system, causing some kind of chemical reaction that affects their thinking patterns. I know this for sure, as I was destroying myself all those years eating things that contained soy and gluten. When I first changed my diet to a plant-based diet, I thought I could simply supply off of soy-based meat imitators....I became extremely miserable, head felt like it was going to explode. On top of that, I was eating gluten which contributed to my anger. I would go off.

I was being accused of being bipolar, schizo, etc. All because of poor diet and my environment. It's like a set up...a trap.


You wanna be in tip top shape or performed your best?Eat healthy... and get therapy.because you could be consuming things things or holding things in that ruins you.

7luminaries
15-10-2015, 07:28 PM
People are influenced by what they eat, what they watch, and they're environment.So, perhaps, where looking in the wrong places for solutions. Eliminate a source, save another resource.Which will at least reduce things at a significant rate. You know, a child with autism is more alert and astute when they don't watch t.v(which over-stimulates them, and ruins their senses...also giving them ADD on top of their diagnosed autism. Also when they have a good healthy diet it also can improve them a lot.The medicine prescribed by doctors is unnecessary.

Abuse, abuse can cause what you call "personality disorders". These are simply mental complexes, that can be reversed with some kind of serious therapy. It's possible.

And, since when was there a empathy requisite to be considered "mentally stable".

Change, starts with oneself.

Although, I see what you're saying. But, the person is not the disorder. And a lot of people have some kind of chemical imbalance going on in there body.

These issues have several factors. The food they eat, might not be tolerated by their digestive system, causing some kind of chemical reaction that affects their thinking patterns. I know this for sure, as I was destroying myself all those years eating things that contained soy and gluten. When I first changed my diet to a plant-based diet, I thought I could simply supply off of soy-based meat imitators....I became extremely miserable, head felt like it was going to explode. On top of that, I was eating gluten which contributed to my anger. I would go off.

I was being accused of being bipolar, schizo, etc. All because of poor diet and my environment. It's like a set up...a trap.


You wanna be in tip top shape or performed your best?Eat healthy... and get therapy.because you could be consuming things things or holding things in that ruins you.

PoH, I generally agree with what you've added. There are many factors, and there are many things that can worsen or help, for certain.
And I agree diet and environment (on all levels) are key to healing and well-being, among others.

There is underdiagnosis, and then again there is apathy, denial, and a heavy-handed, routinised misdiagnosis & overmedication of many conditions.
But then again, is any of that surprising in a society which actively fosters narcissism and a lack of empathy purely for reasons of commerce and immediate gratification
(and perhaps also secondarily to destabilize social cohesion & the progress of humanity)?

I added bold in a few places to stress a few statements of yours in particular.
Peace & blessings,
7L

naturesflow
15-10-2015, 10:14 PM
You ordering again! Man, you dont even listen to your own soul (that is if its alive there amidst all that darkness and all those projections) and go around ordering others? Another impossibility. No wonder.

Nope...impossible for my ground to become thin in the remotest manner. You bear your own burdens.

What is a soul anyway?

PassionOfHybrid
15-10-2015, 10:19 PM
PoH, I generally agree with what you've added. There are many factors, and there are many things that can worsen or help, for certain.
And I agree diet and environment (on all levels) are key to healing and well-being, among others.

There is underdiagnosis, and then again there is apathy, denial, and a heavy-handed, routinised misdiagnosis & overmedication of many conditions.
But then again, is any of that surprising in a society which actively fosters narcissism and a lack of empathy purely for reasons of commerce and immediate gratification
(and perhaps also secondarily to destabilize social cohesion & the progress of humanity)?

I added bold in a few places to stress a few statements of yours in particular.
Peace & blessings,
7L

That's true.

Also, they just want to make money.

you seem very well-informed.

God-Like
16-10-2015, 07:52 AM
What is the point of any of this, may I ask?


Are you asking me Passion?

What is the point in continuing to ask for answers when all I get in return is abuse .

Well if you are asking me that question I would have to say that I am a keen observer of people's expression . I know where they are coming from such an observation .

When another attacks another without provocation then there is an issue somewhere inside of them .

In a way I don't mind being at the end of another's reflective issues I have been a sponge / punch bag for others issues and problemo's for much of my life .

I am o.k with that, I actually accept that is what is part of my service lols, butt it doesn't mean that I can't stand my ground when the moment requires it .

It is plain to see something is not quite right with what is happening here but it is happening in reflection of what is going on within each party .

There is no point flogging a dead horse as the saying goes and it is obvious that there is not going to be any real open and honest discussion had as to why one would get abusive when unprovoked but that doesn't mean that being abusive without warrant is a right course of action .

I am simply pointing that out and enquiring why they would need to do that .


Everything runs it's own course ..


x daz x

God-Like
16-10-2015, 08:28 AM
I hope that you can extend it and your focus generally toward addressing the topics I discussed in my posts right above this, particularly relating to AS, mental illness, and narcissism/avoidant attachment/other PDs and the relationship of these conditions to certain commonly displayed behaviours:



Hey ..

Gees, that's a lot of topics rolled into one there .

What I will say is that I have known at times there to be a thin line between being mentally ill and being in or of a particular expression .

I think with that thin line in mind it's just to difficult to say generally speaking but would have to be associated case by case .

My uncle was sectioned for 3 months 20 years ago and although he had a nervous breakdown and was acting mighty odd, he never felt so alive and in touch with himself in those times .

I know some very unhappy selfish, self centred, greedy people who are guilt ridden and whom feel out of touch with love of themselves and of others and whom express themselves lets say inappropriately, enough so where you could swear there was something wrong with them mentally speaking .

Perhaps that thin line that I was speaking of illustrates that a deep sense of guilt for instance can effect one's mental state for sure . Add a little lack of self love in the mix and then one's mental state and emotional state starts to take a particular shape .

One's perception of life and of self can then only be had through such a reflection ..


x daz x

lifensoul
16-10-2015, 09:02 AM
7luminaries, i am not sure why you brought in icd/dsm into sf...maybe to give an exit to the dark pit, you obviously are very well aware of the dangers here...yet you...never mind..nit on me. It is no aspergers nor is on the autisric spectrum nor has any personality disorders as in mental illness. He is an extremely dangerous and extremely evil deep pit of f darkness which aims to initially lure into subtle gradual well calculated misdirection in your weak moments, through deception and manipulation using the perfect right loving words (which mean nothing to them) then to absolutely destroy, torture and torment anything/anyone with even the slightest element of 'light' in them that might be in its path while attempting to enforce its darkness upon them by hook or crook.

Many on this forum seem to quite encourage the depths of darkness, by equating dark and light and through many other similar tricks...no wonder a man like godlike is thriving and dares to continue to use his dark tricks to decieve people...but then the evil that run the world dont give a damn about entire humanity...let alone the unsuspecting of such evil members here....or give a damn about the/any forum/aspect of sciety itself...but yes..if anyone here does know the difference...please be very very careful, use your own mind than take any opinions from anyone and stay away from evil.

I personally will be leaving this forum for good in the next couple of days, something i had planned a couple of weeks ago....so, the unassuming good humans here (good inside out...a few here seemto think its quite acceptable to be one thing on the outside and the dark opposite on the inside), although you might not read my message here....please do look after yourselves. May god show you the right path, give you the strength and wisdom and the ability to listen to it inorder to protect yourself from and navigate through the deceivers and manipulators working to pull you into their pit of darkness to use your present life and future lives as evil tools and may god help you stay on the right path you were born to be on, the path and of absolute humanity. Follow your conscience...for never can you fool or blindfold it anyways nor will it take any excuses.

Gem
16-10-2015, 09:46 AM
I agree it's not about the label per se.
These are just clinical descriptions for us to better understand what is meant by the term Aspergers or mild autism.

Thanks to Gem for mentioning that it is now referenced as being on the mild end of the autism spectrum (AS).

The key point I intended is not about those with AS being different in whatever way we all are, but that it is a condition that is beyond one's control to have or not have. Compassion and accurate diagnosis are both critical to helping those with this condition or any other which requires a particular type of treatment geared to the individual, so that they can function at their highest level.

The other reality is that when one lacks empathy, for whatever reason, it is something that the rest of us must acknowledge, for our own safety and wellbeing, as much as for theirs.

BTW...there are many other conditions or personality disorders that may also overlap with the autism spectrum (AS), including narcissism and avoidant attachment personality disorder (PD). These may be separate from or in addition to AS in a given individual, it all depends -- and I leave that to the professionals. Certainly many who have narcissistic or avoidant attachment PD do not suffer from AS, of course. But some of these personality disorders often either begin and/or are first evident even in infancy or early childhood, as a result of individual and/or environmental conditions (such as neglect or abuse) and the child's adaptive responses.

AS, which is thought to have a strong genetic component or predisposition, also is typically first noticed in infancy or early childhood.

Lastly, narcissistic behaviours (which orient toward self-gratification and indulgence of one's own needs at all costs, and which often display a lack of empathy toward others) are broadly and extensively promoted in modern society in recent decades, and are ever more normative ("everyone's doing it").
We are encouraging lack of empathy as a normative mode of behavior toward one another even when not ill or suffering from an ingrained or lifelong PD.
And that is another piece of our social reality that affects us all, and like any problem must first be acknowledged before we can humanely address it.

Basically, our society needs a 12-step intervention to address our blatant, exploitative, commercial and often quite cynical indulgence of narcissistic and psychopathic behaviours and tendencies...and likewise, we also need to better care for those truly suffering from mental illnesses and ingrained PDs.
However, doing this with compassion requires an empathy and a fully realised humanity which is in ever shorter supply at this time.

Fancy that, eh? It's a right pickle which requires those of us who behave narcissistically by choice, out of habit, for convenience, or because "everyone else is doing it" all grow (up) spiritually as individuals and as a society and treat ourselves and one other more humanely and with greater love, so that in turn we may better care for and love those who are truly ill, who lack our resources, and who deeply need our help as well as our empathy.

Peace & blessings,
7L
I agree it's not about the label per se.
These are just clinical descriptions for us to better understand what is meant by the term Aspergers or mild autism.

Thanks to Gem for mentioning that it is now referenced as being on the mild end of the autism spectrum (AS).

The key point I intended is not about those with AS being different in whatever way we all are, but that it is a condition that is beyond one's control to have or not have. Compassion and accurate diagnosis are both critical to helping those with this condition or any other which requires a particular type of treatment geared to the individual, so that they can function at their highest level.

The other reality is that when one lacks empathy, for whatever reason, it is something that the rest of us must acknowledge, for our own safety and wellbeing, as much as for theirs.

BTW...there are many other conditions or personality disorders that may also overlap with the autism spectrum (AS), including narcissism and avoidant attachment personality disorder (PD). These may be separate from or in addition to AS in a given individual, it all depends -- and I leave that to the professionals. Certainly many who have narcissistic or avoidant attachment PD do not suffer from AS, of course. But some of these personality disorders often either begin and/or are first evident even in infancy or early childhood, as a result of individual and/or environmental conditions (such as neglect or abuse) and the child's adaptive responses.

AS, which is thought to have a strong genetic component or predisposition, also is typically first noticed in infancy or early childhood.

Lastly, narcissistic behaviours (which orient toward self-gratification and indulgence of one's own needs at all costs, and which often display a lack of empathy toward others) are broadly and extensively promoted in modern society in recent decades, and are ever more normative ("everyone's doing it").
We are encouraging lack of empathy as a normative mode of behavior toward one another even when not ill or suffering from an ingrained or lifelong PD.
And that is another piece of our social reality that affects us all, and like any problem must first be acknowledged before we can humanely address it.

Basically, our society needs a 12-step intervention to address our blatant, exploitative, commercial and often quite cynical indulgence of narcissistic and psychopathic behaviours and tendencies...and likewise, we also need to better care for those truly suffering from mental illnesses and ingrained PDs.
However, doing this with compassion requires an empathy and a fully realised humanity which is in ever shorter supply at this time.

Fancy that, eh? It's a right pickle which requires those of us who behave narcissistically by choice, out of habit, for convenience, or because "everyone else is doing it" all grow (up) spiritually as individuals and as a society and treat ourselves and one other more humanely and with greater love, so that in turn we may better care for and love those who are truly ill, who lack our resources, and who deeply need our help as well as our empathy.

Peace & blessings,
7L
One has to understand the DSM isn't a medical tome; is a genre of language that brings order to psychiatry and thereby establishes psychiatry as a political/powerful entity. I'll elaborate before coming to the point. The dawn of the asylum in the 19th century enabled the insane (whom were confined in increasingly clinical conditions) to be studied and experimented on for the ensuing 200 years (up until the 1980's). During that period doctors produced a specialist body of knowledge which came to be called psychiatry. At the beginning of the 20th century, psychiatry was a chaotic word-world where different asylums, hospitals and schools used different jargon which was definitively obscure. It was as though several languages were being spoken at once. Psychiatrist, Karl Jaspers, was perplexed by this disorderly confusion in the field, so he devised a unitary language, which effectively drowned out competing voices, thus defining psychiatric norms, and thereby bringing order to the profession.


From this order of psychiatry, the language of 'disorders' arose in the ICD-6 (WHO, 1949), from which the and the DSM-1 (1954) was derived. The DSM took Jaspers' linguistic genre further as it codified a unitary psychiatric diagnostic criteria. There was no medical research, scientific data or biological markers founding Jaspers' work or the DSM. It was solely the defining of psychiatry as a genre of language.


I claim that the DSM's creation was not a medical endeavour - it was an act of political power. The creators of the DSM are entirely transparent about this. Robert Spitzer, Chair of DSM-3 Task Force said: "no biological markers have been found" for 95% of mental disorders. He also confirms the DSM as an act of political power:


Our team was certainly not typical of the psychiatric community… it allowed a small group with a particular viewpoint to take over psychiatry and change it in a fundamental way… It was a revolution. That's what it was...We took over because we had the power (Spitzer as cited in Davis, 2015).


The Dsm specifies the 'correct language' to be used in health, government departments, education, social work etc etc; and furthermore, diagnostic terminology has been absorbed into everyday speech, thereby normalising the psychiatric genre in society, and thus producing a 'therapeutic state and culture'. See how it works politically!



This language is used to arbitrarily classify abnormal behaviour into orderly categories so as to maintian social order though the discipline of the chemical cosh. The DSM-3 greatly expanded the number of diagnostic categories, particularly in children. In the past, unruly kids would get 6 of the best. This same behavioural tendency is now diagnosed, and discipline takes the form of ritalin.


There is the fact (real) that some people experience high levels of distress, depression and so on, and there is a mythical language (not-real) that describes them as 'disordered'.

Ascension
16-10-2015, 10:55 PM
There is a saying
Whether you believe you can make it or not
in both cases you are right .

7luminaries
20-10-2015, 02:11 PM
Hey ..

Gees, that's a lot of topics rolled into one there .

What I will say is that I have known at times there to be a thin line between being mentally ill and being in or of a particular expression .

I think with that thin line in mind it's just to difficult to say generally speaking but would have to be associated case by case .

My uncle was sectioned for 3 months 20 years ago and although he had a nervous breakdown and was acting mighty odd, he never felt so alive and in touch with himself in those times .

I know some very unhappy selfish, self centred, greedy people who are guilt ridden and whom feel out of touch with love of themselves and of others and whom express themselves lets say inappropriately, enough so where you could swear there was something wrong with them mentally speaking .

Perhaps that thin line that I was speaking of illustrates that a deep sense of guilt for instance can effect one's mental state for sure . Add a little lack of self love in the mix and then one's mental state and emotional state starts to take a particular shape .

One's perception of life and of self can then only be had through such a reflection ..


x daz x

Hey there Daz...there was a lot and glad you didn't get lost in all that :D
I do agree with all things in moderation, including so-called sanity.
I completely agree there is a thin line between mental illness and what we've termed normative functioning. And that what we call a mental illness and how we diagnose it is somewhat arbitrary...as PoH and Gem have mentioned, among others. I agree with them too that it's all somewhat arbitrary by many of our usual or clinical measures.

My main point, or rather my underlying point, is that there is one commonality between many of these conditions, whether a "mental illness" like psychopathy, or a milder/less dysfunctional "personality disorder" like narcissism, borderline PD or avoidant attachment PD, etc. Even including many conditions on the autism spectrum.

And that is that there is a moderate to severe lack of empathy. Lack of empathy is the real sickness. Lacking empathy is the real "mental disorder", and it is the real emotional and spiritual obstacle to growth and to being fully human.

Without empathy, IMO we cannot ever know what is truly real or unreal by any measure, because without empathy, we are missing the core of our humanity and of our spiritual centre. That is the core "mental illness" we must address IMO....and it is also the core emotional and spiritual illness we must address, both individually and as a society.

If we have autism....or if we have been abused or neglected, failed to bond, and have developed narcissistic PD or avoidant attachment PD...or if we have even become psyochopathic as a result of abuse or neglect and failure to bond...or if we as a society have cynically and flagrantly encouraged narcissism as acceptable behaviour in order to gain our ends...then first and foremost, we as individuals and as a society must acknowledge this severe crisis, this handicap and challenge to our core humanity. Our narcissism and our lack of empathy.

(Also, please see my response below to Gem. It also mentions how narcissism and a lack of empathy may come about innocently (through some combo of genetics and environment, or from childhood adaptation to physical abuse, neglect, and other forms of abuse), as well as more consciously & less innocently, through the narcissistic and utilitarian choices we make as adults which are increasingly deemed as normative and thus "OK".)

And we must all come to terms with this reality (and this unreality), and with our own communal and individual responsibilities to seek help and participate in therapies and lifeways that encourage and foster healing and growth in positive ways. This will mean both true introspection and true communal validation -- often for the first time -- of what for many have heretofore been lives based around our narcissistic social paradigm and norms, or around narcissistic coping tools as a result of abuse and trauma. And it will mean acknowledging and accepting that truth in order to ultimately reject much of it, to authentically heal, transform and transcend it, and seek for better.

For those that are wrestling or struggling with this truth (or worse, those who are blindly following society's lead), then what we must consider carefully is that any perspective that says "you are the only one in the universe and all else is / are reflection(s) of you" is likely not going to encourage positive growth and healing. Rather, it will only further lure and entrap them into a narcissistic life path.

Peace & blessings Teds,
7L

7luminaries
20-10-2015, 02:18 PM
There is the fact (real) that some people experience high levels of distress, depression and so on, and there is a mythical language (not-real) that describes them as 'disordered'.

Gem, I do largely agree with all you say, and I use the terms purely because they are known. I mean to describe a spectrum of behaviours, which are arbitrarily labeled as "mentally ill" versus just a "PD"...all those lines and labels are largely arbitrary, I agree.

But IMO they are all disordered to the degree in which the individual who experiences the condition also has a lack of empathy. IMO it is the lack of empathy that is the primary illness, and that illness has also been consciously encouraged and propagated in mainstream society. Further, narcissism and a lack of empathy is increasingly seen as "normative" behaviour in mainstream society, whereas if it occurs within a labeled "mental illness" or PD then it is a disturbing and distinguishing feature...one which brings on horror even.

I mean to underscore that IMO the only real and lasting mark of any mental, emotional, or spiritual illness is narcissism and the pronounced lack of empathy. And that it is absolutely not contained to those labeled as mentally ill, but in fact is ever more widely occurring across society as a whole, and intentionally so.

IMO that is the primary sickness and the "sick" truth with which we must come to terms, as a society and as individuals.

Peace & blessings,
7L

PassionOfHybrid
20-10-2015, 05:23 PM
What we must come to understand is that no one is perfect, and likely no one ever going to be perfect. That's just what "is". People want to put label on everything, that they don't like, about what people do.

There's no disorders. It's people who look at the issues of others, but never themselves that acknowledge these labels as something real.

People just "are". If they lack empathy, compassion, love, etc...that's just they way they function due to their upbringing/preconditions. And you deal with those people accordingly because of that.

Insanity, to me,among others, is what we should pay attention to. And, at the end of the day, a human is just a vessel...doesn't guarantee anything.Just an archetype. There's no "human thing to do"...doesn't exist. That's stereotyping.

7luminaries
20-10-2015, 06:26 PM
PoH, we all have the right to our opinions. But think about it...how is it you best deal with narcissistic individuals who lack empathy when increasingly, it is more and more common...and ultimately they will be the majority? You will be then be the "mad" and undesirable minority for your lack of narcissism and for your empathy. And how you may prefer deal with the majority will largely be taken out of your control. YOU will be the one who is categorised and managed, perhaps even medicated at some point. Given a system which is impersonal (society) and often toxic to start with (many of its institutions), and then putting all that in the hands of entitled narcissists who lack empathy for you and BTW get to say what's normal...this is the big picture now & in future. It's certainly not pretty. And it's out of any one person's hands to "deal with it" individually, like a cowboy or a pioneer. It requires broad awareness, and broad change, and collective engagement. There is no other way.

I am certainly not disagreeing that words and labels can get in the way of understanding and communication. People aren't perfect and it requires time & energy to engage in life. However, that said, I still think it's a worthy effort to try to understand & communicate with self & others, to engage, and to strive to treat others more kindly and not less so. And meanwhile to not get too hung up on the words and the labels. Nor obsess on what is in this moment, which is fluid and which can change in the next. If we can allow for the possibility of growth and transformation, then we have realised that nothing and no one is static. Nothing and no one just is eternally, and all things can and do change. Therefore the way people are at present may also change tomorrow, with one conscious step after another taken toward healing and health -- and away from narcissistic behaviours and a lack of empathy.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that the biggest sicknesses today are certainly not just what are typically labelled as "mental" illnesses, except as they apply to our entire society. They are normative sicknesses, consciously indulged in for the most part, and these are what we refer to as narcissism and a lack of empathy. These conditions are epidemic in Western society, and that is what makes us sick as a society. Not the clinical labels and not those we point to at the fringes as "mentally ill". But rather IMO the reality is that our society as a whole is sick, the entire width and breadth of it and of the normative social paradigm in our modern era, particularly of late (recent decades).

However with the acknowledgement of our current reality, and with the awareness, the necessary tools and therapies, and the crucial support of both the individual and the society as a whole, things can move from what is right now to what is tomorrow, which can be different from today.

With those foundations in place, our society as a whole could begin to turn the page on the era of narcissism and its lack of empathy.

Peace & blessings,
7L

PassionOfHybrid
20-10-2015, 08:20 PM
PoH, we all have the right to our opinions. But think about it...how is it you best deal with narcissistic individuals who lack empathy when increasingly, it is more and more common...and ultimately they will be the majority? You will be then be the "mad" and undesirable minority for your lack of narcissism and for your empathy. And how you may prefer deal with the majority will largely be taken out of your control. YOU will be the one who is categorised and managed, perhaps even medicated at some point. Given a system which is impersonal (society) and often toxic to start with (many of its institutions), and then putting all that in the hands of entitled narcissists who lack empathy for you and BTW get to say what's normal...this is the big picture now & in future. It's certainly not pretty. And it's out of any one person's hands to "deal with it" individually, like a cowboy or a pioneer. It requires broad awareness, and broad change, and collective engagement. There is no other way.

I am certainly not disagreeing that words and labels can get in the way of understanding and communication. People aren't perfect and it requires time & energy to engage in life. However, that said, I still think it's a worthy effort to try to understand & communicate with self & others, to engage, and to strive to treat others more kindly and not less so. And meanwhile to not get too hung up on the words and the labels. Nor obsess on what is in this moment, which is fluid and which can change in the next. If we can allow for the possibility of growth and transformation, then we have realised that nothing and no one is static. Nothing and no one just is eternally, and all things can and do change. Therefore the way people are at present may also change tomorrow, with one conscious step after another taken toward healing and health -- and away from narcissistic behaviours and a lack of empathy.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that the biggest sicknesses today are certainly not just what are typically labelled as "mental" illnesses, except as they apply to our entire society. They are normative sicknesses, consciously indulged in for the most part, and these are what we refer to as narcissism and a lack of empathy. These conditions are epidemic in Western society, and that is what makes us sick as a society. Not the clinical labels and not those we point to at the fringes as "mentally ill". But rather IMO the reality is that our society as a whole is sick, the entire width and breadth of it and of the normative social paradigm in our modern era, particularly of late (recent decades).

However with the acknowledgement of our current reality, and with the awareness, the necessary tools and therapies, and the crucial support of both the individual and the society as a whole, things can move from what is right now to what is tomorrow, which can be different from today.

With those foundations in place, our society as a whole could begin to turn the page on the era of narcissism and its lack of empathy.

Peace & blessings,
7L

I get what you're saying. These are all possible truths.

As far as narcissism...i think narcissism changes over time. What's narcissistic now, is not the same as narcissism, then.It's always existed...so I cannot agree with you on the idea that we're beginning. We already have, and always have been...it's just changed. We have social media, television...all kinds of different outlets. We can decrease...have some hope.

7luminaries
20-10-2015, 10:51 PM
I get what you're saying. These are all possible truths.

As far as narcissism...i think narcissism changes over time. What's narcissistic now, is not the same as narcissism, then.It's always existed...so I cannot agree with you on the idea that we're beginning. We already have, and always have been...it's just changed. We have social media, television...all kinds of different outlets. We can decrease...have some hope.
PoH, hello there!
I always make room for hope. But I also believe in staying engaged and open to working with our reality as it currently exists. Acknowledging where we are right now as a society is the first step toward a deeper awareness, and toward possible change.

Change is always possible, however improbable. But it moves into the realm of the probable and even the more likely outcome, once we engage and focus with awareness, clarity, focus, integrity, persistence, courage, and compassion. Yeah, all of that stuff.

It will take all of that to come to terms with our endemic and epidemic narcissism (and corresponding lack of empathy) at the societal level. At that also means at the level of many, many individuals.

Somehow Hillel seems appropriate here...

"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?"

Which I take as this...
I must strive to love myself equally to others, AND I must strive to love others equally to myself...that is authentic love. It is not one-way but all ways, reciprocal and comprehensive in every possible way. To do less and to be less curtails my humanity.

And the time (both for hope and for informed engagement) is always now, and only now.

Peace & blessings,
7L

Gem
21-10-2015, 07:32 AM
delete double post

Gem
21-10-2015, 07:42 AM
Gem, I do largely agree with all you say, and I use the terms purely because they are known. I mean to describe a spectrum of behaviours, which are arbitrarily labeled as "mentally ill" versus just a "PD"...all those lines and labels are largely arbitrary, I agree.

But IMO they are all disordered to the degree in which the individual who experiences the condition also has a lack of empathy. IMO it is the lack of empathy that is the primary illness, and that illness has also been consciously encouraged and propagated in mainstream society. Further, narcissism and a lack of empathy is increasingly seen as "normative" behaviour in mainstream society, whereas if it occurs within a labeled "mental illness" or PD then it is a disturbing and distinguishing feature...one which brings on horror even.

I mean to underscore that IMO the only real and lasting mark of any mental, emotional, or spiritual illness is narcissism and the pronounced lack of empathy. And that it is absolutely not contained to those labeled as mentally ill, but in fact is ever more widely occurring across society as a whole, and intentionally so.

IMO that is the primary sickness and the "sick" truth with which we must come to terms, as a society and as individuals.

Peace & blessings,
7L
Ok. I think we talk about empathy and we address a real thing, and we arbitrarily define a lesser degree of empath as "narcissism". We take that further and within the category of "personality disorders" we define "narcissism" as an illness. In this case, where there are no biological markers to validate the illness, "illness" is defined as the social impact of behaviours in terms of harm or distress caused by said behaviours. Apparently, the person with that narcissistic behavioural tendency is not personally distressed by their behaviour, so in this particular case, "Illness" is defined solely in terms of the harm and distress that people other than the narcissist experience due to narcissistic behaviours.

This leads on to my next point of the locale of the problem, and since we speak of assumed mental disorder; the locale of the mind specifically. There is a contradiction here, because we only assume that there is a mind. Some say it's a 'substance' which people have agency over, which is directly contradicted by the notion of (being a victim of) mental illness. The materialist sees mind as a consequence of the brain, and in the causal universe that implies the notion of agency is mute - but others assume the mind is a priori substance which the agent has faculty over, which is the crux of agency. None of these actually make any sense because the mind is not verified as a substance, but rather, assumed to exist.

Having assumed this, where is it? If we were to say it's an artifact of the brain, it exists as a projection of the brain, and not in the brain, or where in the brain is it exactly? If we assume a mind we are basically forced to accept that it is a non-localised entity. Indeed, the Freudian model doesn't suggest it is localised. It can't be localised precisely because we only have models of mind, and mapping the brain is simply a neurological model of the mind.

In my own terms then, the non-local mind isn't situated within individuals, but dispersed. I visualise this as a point of focus that is 'a sense of self' (associated with the body) that dissipates throughout the body and goes on to entail the entire lifespan (time dimension) and the 'self's' environment (spacial dimension and social dimension). Having modeled the mind in this way, where can we now locate the illness? We can't reasonably say it is inherent in the 'point of focus self', but may be bio-genetic in brain or body (though we have no bio-genetic markers to verify this). Illness could be situated in the 'self's environment' apart from the body which entails the physical world and the social world.

Then we come to the dimensional aspects of the human condition (which may indeed extend beyond physical 3D space/time). Limiting it to 3D, however, already implies that mental illness is a social and environmental phenomena, (not least of all because mental illness is social constructed by definition) and to address narcissism (for example), extends through history, as does the socio-political sphere; and the environmental conditions within which bodies exist and interact.

7luminaries
21-10-2015, 02:11 PM
Ok. I think we talk about empathy and we address a real thing, and we arbitrarily define a lesser degree of empath as "narcissism". We take that further and within the category of "personality disorders" we define "narcissism" as an illness. In this case, where there are no biological markers to validate the illness, "illness" is defined as the social impact of behaviours in terms of harm or distress caused by said behaviours.

Apparently, the person with that narcissistic behavioural tendency is not personally distressed by their behaviour, so in this particular case, "Illness" is defined solely in terms of the harm and distress that people other than the narcissist experience due to narcissistic behaviours.

This leads on to my next point of the locale of the problem, and since we speak of assumed mental disorder; the locale of the mind specifically. There is a contradiction here, because we only assume that there is a mind. Some say it's a 'substance' which people have agency over, which is directly contradicted by the notion of (being a victim of) mental illness. The materialist sees mind as a consequence of the brain, and in the causal universe that implies the notion of agency is mute - but others assume the mind is a priori substance which the agent has faculty over, which is the crux of agency. None of these actually make any sense because the mind is not verified as a substance, but rather, assumed to exist.

Having assumed this, where is it? If we were to say it's an artifact of the brain, it exists as a projection of the brain, and not in the brain, or where in the brain is it exactly? If we assume a mind we are basically forced to accept that it is a non-localised entity. Indeed, the Freudian model doesn't suggest it is localised. It can't be localised precisely because we only have models of mind, and mapping the brain is simply a neurological model of the mind.

In my own terms then, the non-local mind isn't situated within individuals, but dispersed. I visualise this as a point of focus that is 'a sense of self' (associated with the body) that dissipates throughout the body and goes on to entail the entire lifespan (time dimension) and the 'self's' environment (spacial dimension and social dimension). Having modeled the mind in this way, where can we now locate the illness? We can't reasonably say it is inherent in the 'point of focus self', but may be bio-genetic in brain or body (though we have no bio-genetic markers to verify this). Illness could be situated in the 'self's environment' apart from the body which entails the physical world and the social world.

Then we come to the dimensional aspects of the human condition (which may indeed extend beyond physical 3D space/time). Limiting it to 3D, however, already implies that mental illness is a social and environmental phenomena, (not least of all because mental illness is social constructed by definition) and to address narcissism (for example), extends through history, as does the socio-political sphere; and the environmental conditions within which bodies exist and interact.

Gem, a thoughtful post and thanks for your response.
Agreed full stop and particularly with the bolded aspects.

The fullness of our humanity...and even the most basic aspects such as thriving in infancy, linguistic development, and bonding...can only occur within community, and not in isolation.

Failure to thrive and survive in infancy is directly linked not to food but to touch and to human contact and interaction by a caregiver.
What makes us fully human is not found in isolation but can only be found in relationship to others, in community, and ideally within the circle of belonging.

Failure to attain the minimum standards of human society as an adult is where the normal development (emotional, spiritual, and mental or intellectual) is impeded most severely by a lack of empathy, by narcissism.

Which as you've described -- and like all aspects of higher humanity -- touches on the intersection of the individual with society, and the internalised awareness of relationship or others by the individual.

It also touches on the degree of trauma which "sick" (or severely dysfunctional) mainstream social norms can inflict on society...to the degree that these norms are both internalised/accepted and also consciously acted upon by increasing numbers of individuals, who then behave narcissistically toward others in a predatory or utilitarian fashion, lacking empathy.

I find this topic most appropriate for any discussion of what is real and what is unreal, however those are defined. For first and foremost, I personally want to know if others have attained the minimum fullness of human development to perceive and regard others equally to themselves, i.e., have empathy for others. Lacking that, any discourse on reality (by whatever definition) would be severely limited IMO.

Peace & blessings,
7L

IamPoltergeist
23-10-2015, 08:56 AM
The concepts of real and fake are perception they are percieved to be "factual" or "fictional" but if you really think about it. Both factual and fictional are one, they both exist . Yet they do not.

Gem
23-10-2015, 09:36 AM
Gem, a thoughtful post and thanks for your response.
Agreed full stop and particularly with the bolded aspects.

The fullness of our humanity...and even the most basic aspects such as thriving in infancy, linguistic development, and bonding...can only occur within community, and not in isolation.

Failure to thrive and survive in infancy is directly linked not to food but to touch and to human contact and interaction by a caregiver.
What makes us fully human is not found in isolation but can only be found in relationship to others, in community, and ideally within the circle of belonging.

Failure to attain the minimum standards of human society as an adult is where the normal development (emotional, spiritual, and mental or intellectual) is impeded most severely by a lack of empathy, by narcissism.

Which as you've described -- and like all aspects of higher humanity -- touches on the intersection of the individual with society, and the internalised awareness of relationship or others by the individual.

It also touches on the degree of trauma which "sick" (or severely dysfunctional) mainstream social norms can inflict on society...to the degree that these norms are both internalised/accepted and also consciously acted upon by increasing numbers of individuals, who then behave narcissistically toward others in a predatory or utilitarian fashion, lacking empathy.

I find this topic most appropriate for any discussion of what is real and what is unreal, however those are defined. For first and foremost, I personally want to know if others have attained the minimum fullness of human development to perceive and regard others equally to themselves, i.e., have empathy for others. Lacking that, any discourse on reality (by whatever definition) would be severely limited IMO.

Peace & blessings,
7L
It is directly related to the real and the not-real because there is a discussion about real things that is concurrent with the frameworks and constructs that the mind contextualises these things in. There's a interlink where mental constructs construct society where the social order is established through widespread subtle agreement to norms.

These things, public order and norms, or conversely, disorder and abnormality, are intrinsically related, 'Norms' are a very precise and narrow range of behaviours that enable a high degree of public order, and beyond that narrow range there lies an endless range of behaviours that abnormal, which psychiatry calls 'disorders'.

Public order is maintained by defining disorders. A sociologist in the 70s designed a simple experiment where he engaged strangers in normal conversation, but instead of looking at their eyes or mouth as is normal, he scrutinised their ear. The stranger then adjusted, moved and re-postured as they tried to 'correct' the situation. The abnormal gaze of the experimenter caused the stranger to behave abnormally as well, and both parties found the situation so disrupting/distressing that they couldn't continue the conversation, or even think clearly. This very slight deviation from the norm completely disrupted social order. The thing is, the norm isn't real but all cultural depends on it, but the disruption and distress were actually experienced (real) as soon as the unreal norms were disturbed.

When we have a capitalist narcissistic norm, people who conform feel at peace with it because distress is the 'disorder' created by divergence form the norm. We don't say society is disordered because the norm it rests on isn't real. We say society becomes disorderly where norms are not maintained. We then see the political dimension of deeming a person who diverges has a 'mental disorder'; but the experiment shows that divergent behaviour is distressing for the compliant person as well, who then diverges from the norm in trying to 'normalise' the situation.

This brings us to experiments like the Stanford Prison and the Milgram experiment where 'normal behaviour', norms, become perverse and how that relates to discipline (correcting behaviour) in society.