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Heart
06-10-2015, 02:59 AM
anger is born in people from the fear of not knowing how to deal with there own suffering, it is a self induced assault to the person being angry not to someone or something out there, even though this illusion seems real, only the person feeling angry and fearing can change there perspective

fear is born of an unprepared mind controled by ego that inturn thrives on anger, thus the cycle of suffering contines, as the following quote may suggest

"fear is energy that's judged only by a conditioned mind" Unknown.

Ivy
06-10-2015, 06:10 AM
Fear of fear and anger breed non-acceptance of the human state.

Desire to rid oneself of human emotions breeds suffering.

umbridge
06-10-2015, 10:05 AM
I have experienced that the times when I felt the fear to act in certain ways - fear of being myself for example, were the times when I later suffered the most, cuz I wasn't true to myself and later felt angry towards situations and people who didn't let me be ME.
It was in the end of 2012 when I felt the past anger coming up so intensly that I was mad for 2 weeks...it was a cleansing and purging process..

Heart
07-10-2015, 04:57 AM
Negativity is also a tool for transformation, more exact. you transmute negative energy and emotions never really getting rid of them but accepting them as they are, then moving beyond them as if you were spectating a sport or "the game of life"

fear is replaced with understanding and anger is transmuted to compassion,

Its not till we have conceeded to compassion and understanding that a true spiritual path is started, before this we are constantly stumbling over our emotions fears and angers, not that this means we are no longer spiritual just out of balance when we fear and anger

naturesflow
07-10-2015, 05:19 AM
Negativity is also a tool for transformation, more exact. you transmute negative energy and emotions never really getting rid of them but accepting them as they are, then moving beyond them as if you were spectating a sport or "the game of life"

fear is replaced with understanding and anger is transmuted to compassion,

Its not till we have conceeded to compassion and understanding that a true spiritual path is started, before this we are constantly stumbling over our emotions fears and angers, not that this means we are no longer spiritual just out of balance when we fear and anger


I wonder if the stumbling is all part of the totality of our life/spiritual experience?

Ivy
07-10-2015, 05:48 AM
Negativity is also a tool for transformation, more exact. you transmute negative energy and emotions never really getting rid of them but accepting them as they are, then moving beyond them as if you were spectating a sport or "the game of life"

fear is replaced with understanding and anger is transmuted to compassion,

Its not till we have conceeded to compassion and understanding that a true spiritual path is started, before this we are constantly stumbling over our emotions fears and angers, not that this means we are no longer spiritual just out of balance when we fear and anger

This is a view, and part of a journey and in that way I appreciate it - but it's not a universal truth or a ending of a journey.

Like another poster recently, the post relates fear and anger to the thoughts that might go with them, yours being of negativity. In my view, it is the thoughts and are transcended or observed, not the energies of emotion.

Heart
07-10-2015, 12:45 PM
I wonder if the stumbling is all part of the totality of our life/spiritual experience?

lol to be human is to error, it does not mean its a negative process just a means to understand the process in this moment

tell me, is it better to be born perfect or to overcome our greatest fears through tremendous adversity, personally I would prefer not to stagnate in my own gene pool and know the difference between good and bad

even then that does not exist but in the human condition

Heart
07-10-2015, 01:17 PM
This is a view, and part of a journey and in that way I appreciate it - but it's not a universal truth or a ending of a journey.

Like another poster recently, the post relates fear and anger to the thoughts that might go with them, yours being of negativity. In my view, it is the thoughts and are transcended or observed, not the energies of emotion.

you are correct in saying this is a point of view, a perception, you are also correct in seeing that the thoughts should be transcended and observed, I was slowly getting to that point in this thread lol, I would hope that there is no ending to our personal journeys

to most people negative energy is far easier to see and know than it is to understand the principles of mental alchemy, just as its far easier to feel fear than it is to transmute it or the thought behind what created fear in the first place

Ivy
07-10-2015, 03:44 PM
you are correct in saying this is a point of view, a perception, you are also correct in seeing that the thoughts should be transcended and observed, I was slowly getting to that point in this thread lol, I would hope that there is no ending to our personal journeys

to most people negative energy is far easier to see and know than it is to understand the principles of mental alchemy, just as its far easier to feel fear than it is to transmute it or the thought behind what created fear in the first place

I don't understand what you mean, or why you would be slowly getting to a point? Are you trying to teach a step by step understanding?

Heart
07-10-2015, 05:32 PM
I don't understand what you mean, or why you would be slowly getting to a point? Are you trying to teach a step by step understanding?


in your post above you said "the post relates fear and anger to the thoughts that might go with them"
in my first post I mention "fear is born of an unprepared mind controled by ego "
and.. "fear is energy that's judged only by a conditioned mind"
You can combine the words above to get this...
you need a mind that is prepared and controled in such a way that your thoughts are unconditional towards fear, anger and ego, the oposite is judging by a mind controled by fear

If I understand your response, we are not that far off in our own perspective of the issue raised, just slightly diferent is all

Unless the masses are totaly tranquil with a stillness of mind and ego there will allways be a focus on the negativity our thoughts and emotions create, at least initially or unless we are a serious student of spiritual development, then we turn within to see that all is an illusion to varying degrees

I am trying to be very selective in my words when I write in a public domain, it does not allways work to give all in one thread only for most of it to be discarded, Afterall what is a word but a thought manifest, words have power so its best to keep ones words to a minimum
such is the limitations of forums and words

Light Seeker
07-10-2015, 07:34 PM
I am interested in this topic from the point of view that sometimes fear appears to be instinctual, particularly in the case of phobias. Spiders, Heights, Enclosed spaces etc. I find myself wondering how this is related to ego ...just a passing observation on my part and nothing more .

Heart
07-10-2015, 09:02 PM
I wrote this years ago and still resonates with me today....

It is quite hard to step out of the shoes of the ego when it wants to respond to someone who is showing you aggression, At this moment there is two responses that you can do… you can but respond back in likeness and then intensify it, or walk away feeling upset and very hurt and wishing you had responded back in likeness and intensity anyway. There is no end to this kind of suffering

Unless………..

You can step into the role of an observer of this present event or moment, allowing the experience to unfold before you, remain balanced inside your mind observing any egotic traits that attempt to beguile you into automatic uncontrolled and unnoticed responses

we respond like this because ego thrives on our fears of the unknown.

phobias are genuine flight or fight responses and have an integral part of self preservation that spans time imemorial, but that does not stop ego from trying to butt its five eggs in creating and manipulating the mind into thinking that tiny spider is going to turn you into the next spiderman,

I wrote this poem about fear

You hear your fear, its drawing near
You turn to run and hide
many times has this been done
throughout your entire life.
Now the mind is tired and weary
with being on the run
the ego is deflated finding running not much fun
you stop and turn to see your fear
its running very fast.
You realise its not stopping
as its heading for a crash
You stand there boldly waiting
for it to end your life
You feel as though your dieing
as it cuts through like a knife
You see it passing through you
and your fear it does go
You sit there in stunned wonder
What did you just go through

Ivy
07-10-2015, 09:05 PM
in your post above you said "the post relates fear and anger to the thoughts that might go with them"
in my first post I mention "fear is born of an unprepared mind controled by ego "
and.. "fear is energy that's judged only by a conditioned mind"
You can combine the words above to get this...
you need a mind that is prepared and controled in such a way that your thoughts are unconditional towards fear, anger and ego, the oposite is judging by a mind controled by fear

If I understand your response, we are not that far off in our own perspective of the issue raised, just slightly diferent is all

Unless the masses are totaly tranquil with a stillness of mind and ego there will allways be a focus on the negativity our thoughts and emotions create, at least initially or unless we are a serious student of spiritual development, then we turn within to see that all is an illusion to varying degrees

I am trying to be very selective in my words when I write in a public domain, it does not allways work to give all in one thread only for most of it to be discarded, Afterall what is a word but a thought manifest, words have power so its best to keep ones words to a minimum
such is the limitations of forums and words

what I saw in your first post was the potential to make certain emotions the 'big bad wolf' so to speak. And whilst I acknowledge your intentions, the effect of posts such as this, have a great deal of potential to create the very fear that you speak of transcending. In this way, the wording itself becomes the stone in the path towards the ideal.

Ivy
07-10-2015, 09:14 PM
I wrote this years ago and still resonates with me today....

It is quite hard to step out of the shoes of the ego when it wants to respond to someone who is showing you aggression, At this moment there is two responses that you can do… you can but respond back in likeness and then intensify it, or walk away feeling upset and very hurt and wishing you had responded back in likeness and intensity anyway. There is no end to this kind of suffering

Unless………..

You can step into the role of an observer of this present event or moment, allowing the experience to unfold before you, remain balanced inside your mind observing any egotic traits that attempt to beguile you into automatic uncontrolled and unnoticed responses

we respond like this because ego thrives on our fears of the unknown.

phobias are genuine flight or fight responses and have an integral part of self preservation that spans time imemorial, but that does not stop ego from trying to butt its five eggs in creating and manipulating the mind into thinking that tiny spider is going to turn you into the next spiderman,

I wrote this poem about fear

You hear your fear, its drawing near
You turn to run and hide
many times has this been done
throughout your entire life.
Now the mind is tired and weary
with being on the run
the ego is deflated finding running not much fun
you stop and turn to see your fear
its running very fast.
You realise its not stopping
as its heading for a crash
You stand there boldly waiting
for it to end your life
You feel as though your dieing
as it cuts through like a knife
You see it passing through you
and your fear it does go
You sit there in stunned wonder
What did you just go through

What the poem suggests is that your personal experience of fear is that you ran... and then you turned and faced the fear... and by doing so, you overcame it - forgive me if I've misinterpreted that.

And the point I was making was that if someone is running from fear, then telling them that it is negative may just give a reason for them to keep it at bay - whereas perhaps others need to feel it or to face it in order to transcend it.

I'm an advocate for sharing from ones own experience with the recognition that other's may experience life very differently - or from the viewpoint that, what works for me is not a path for everyone. So in my view, sharing your own journey is a wonderful thing, and far more useful than sharing the generalisation of the views you have from where your personal journey has taken you x

Heart
07-10-2015, 10:02 PM
Something I wrote many years ago...

My thoughts...
This mind is controlled by the ego through fear and is always in constant battle for recognition or identity of self, it uses the mind as a creative tool to create a world of illusion based on the fear of the unknown... your real identity is unknowable, which is the first real death before the physical death. There are many deaths in between such as desire, anger, lust, and most other recognised sins that humans are capable of that come and go with the whims of the egotic mind.
It is easy for me to write down, but the ego never really dies, just as one goes from one situation in life to another, where all possible exists are blocked, there is only one way to go... straight through your worst fears... a dying ego. You still live, but with a new perspective on life and one that is liberating. Just before the ego 'dies' there is a darkness, total fear, complete hopelessness, unbelievable loneliness, just imagine the worst case of depression and that wont come close to it. You then end up giving in to everything and allowing every aspect of your 'ego identity' to dissolve. I can only describe the after effect as a silence, a stillness, an emptiness. a nothingness, peace and tranquility and above all a sense of endless compassion and love that can not be denied or held.
Words cant give it credit really but I am 100% sure of the experience.

I now remember crying for the whole day after and not knowing why, I now know it was because I was releasing old karmic energy. I was actually crying and laughing at the same time. I found everything so amusing and wonderful, that this world is so beautiful and radiant, I could not fault it. even if someone passed a sarcastic remark I would be indifferent to its intended effect... it didn't hurt and I didn't have to respond to it, I knew the other person is still in a state of illusion and should be shown the utmost respect, he too will one day realise his own potential and I should be setting an example to him... is the exact thought I had.
I know all this to be so because I experienced it when I was 13 but the young mind back then just wasn't quite prepared for it and since then have fallen back into a state of illusion . I cracked the tough shell of this ego back then and the light within shines through the cracks, I still get the occasional aha moment when I pass by this light but I seem to be keeping my distance for some reason or another, this has changed everything I now presently am and through the progressive years all I can hear in the background of this mind is a steady 'hear I am'

All I can do at this moment is concentrate on the 'here I am' and blindly follow this sound.
I am replying back to it by declaring 'I am ready'

naturesflow
07-10-2015, 10:22 PM
[QUOTE=heart]lol to be human is to error, it does not mean its a negative process just a means to understand the process in this moment

So if its all process wouldn't it all be part of the spiritual journey...I questioned your statement of *when* the true spiritual path starts... To me that simply shows me that your creating separation in pathways when its all connected as one source of life, rippling through the whole. So as an example, for compassion to arise, at times, you might come to know your compassion through suffering outside of you through someone who is not experiencing compassion just yet, showing you a reflection of pain to open deeper in you, offering you a gift in their pain. Or your own journey from the beginning to now serves the whole process, so without it all you wouldn't know and open to this awareness....People can still be suffering, in fear and anger, but also experience compassion through that process..... So which path is true spirituality awakening?

naturesflow
07-10-2015, 10:31 PM
There is no start of finish in my view, perception often creates connections where it might appear something major ends or begins again in you or your reality. And of course that might be a major turning point in your personal life process, but as I have learned life goes on, as it always has. Whether you call it spiritual or life, its life in process..

PassionOfHybrid
07-10-2015, 10:36 PM
anger is born in people from the fear of not knowing how to deal with there own suffering, it is a self induced assault to the person being angry not to someone or something out there, even though this illusion seems real, only the person feeling angry and fearing can change there perspective

fear is born of an unprepared mind controled by ego that inturn thrives on anger, thus the cycle of suffering contines, as the following quote may suggest

"fear is energy that's judged only by a conditioned mind" Unknown.

don't give in to your anger, or let it control you. But don't be passive or allow others to push you around.

Heart
08-10-2015, 12:50 AM
[QUOTE]

So if its all process wouldn't it all be part of the spiritual journey...I questioned your statement of *when* the true spiritual path starts... To me that simply shows me that your creating separation in pathways when its all connected as one source of life, rippling through the whole. So as an example, for compassion to arise, at times, you might come to know your compassion through suffering outside of you through someone who is not experiencing compassion just yet, showing you a reflection of pain to open deeper in you, offering you a gift in their pain. Or your own journey from the beginning to now serves the whole process, so without it all you wouldn't know and open to this awareness....People can still be suffering, in fear and anger, but also experience compassion through that process..... So which path is true spirituality awakening?

your words remind me of a saying I created to remind myself to be compassionate towards others reguardless...
"You are a mirror in which I see a reflection of myself," and visa-versa,

when you see another suffering in any way including anger and fear, you regonise it within yourself first, that recognition is there because we too have experienced the same thing, they are reflecting what you may be missing within yourself too but that depends if there is a need to learn from others our own inhebitions and inconsistancies, compassion is born from understanding our own fears and anger in others

Ego is very very easy to see in another yet our own seems to hide quite well behind smoke and mirrors when we scrutinise it with our own thoughts, our spiritual awakening is never ending when we see others as our teacher of our true self and we are open to that understanding

Hope that helps

Heart
08-10-2015, 01:01 AM
There is no start of finish in my view, perception often creates connections where it might appear something major ends or begins again in you or your reality. And of course that might be a major turning point in your personal life process, but as I have learned life goes on, as it always has. Whether you call it spiritual or life, its life in process..

If you talk about the spirit of man then there is no begining or end, just an everlasting presence within

anger and fear does come and go, there is no substance to them, just as you can be fearfull one minute and tranquil the next, there is no permanance to them, they may be experienced in a perpetual manor one straight after the other
but if you look really hard, you will see anger and fear come from nowhere, enter your mind and body, stay for a while and then disapear,

Heart
08-10-2015, 01:03 AM
don't give in to your anger, or let it control you. But don't be passive or allow others to push you around.

thank you for your kind words, I am loving the idea of learning from my experiences

naturesflow
08-10-2015, 02:17 AM
[QUOTE=naturesflow]

your words remind me of a saying I created to remind myself to be compassionate towards others reguardless...
"You are a mirror in which I see a reflection of myself," and visa-versa,

when you see another suffering in any way including anger and fear, you regonise it within yourself first, that recognition is there because we too have experienced the same thing, they are reflecting what you may be missing within yourself too but that depends if there is a need to learn from others our own inhebitions and inconsistancies, compassion is born from understanding our own fears and anger in others

Ego is very very easy to see in another yet our own seems to hide quite well behind smoke and mirrors when we scrutinise it with our own thoughts, our spiritual awakening is never ending when we see others as our teacher of our true self and we are open to that understanding

Hope that helps

ARe you avoiding addressing the question and what I related too about how you see the true spiritual path awakening? I was more interested how you see it as a path separate to all life?

Heart
08-10-2015, 02:41 AM
[QUOTE=heart]

ARe you avoiding addressing the question and what I related too about how you see the true spiritual path awakening? I was more interested how you see it as a path separate to all life?

I dont see any such thing as separate, that is your perception of my words, hence no response to your question

i have also explained about spiritual awakening albeit one with limiting words

naturesflow
08-10-2015, 02:54 AM
[QUOTE=naturesflow]

I dont see any such thing as separate, that is your perception of my words, hence no response to your question

i have also explained about spiritual awakening albeit one with limiting words


I see.........each to their own I suppose.

Heart
08-10-2015, 10:21 PM
May I ask where you see separation, maybe I am not clear in my wording or there is something I said correctly or incorrectly that would cause you to question a path separate to life?

there is many parts to the hiuman condition none of them is separate from each other yet if you look at just one of them such as anger and fear it may seem like its separate yet we are a sum total of our experiences in this present moment now

Gem
09-10-2015, 12:52 AM
your words remind me of a saying I created to remind myself to be compassionate towards others reguardless...
"You are a mirror in which I see a reflection of myself," and visa-versa,

when you see another suffering in any way including anger and fear, you regonise it within yourself first, that recognition is there because we too have experienced the same thing, they are reflecting what you may be missing within yourself too but that depends if there is a need to learn from others our own inhebitions and inconsistancies, compassion is born from understanding our own fears and anger in others

Ego is very very easy to see in another yet our own seems to hide quite well behind smoke and mirrors when we scrutinise it with our own thoughts, our spiritual awakening is never ending when we see others as our teacher of our true self and we are open to that understanding

Hope that helps
Thats getting toward my way thinking, and I'm an expert on anger, but a novice in fear.

The notion of reflection is OK, but as I live in the world I see people some of whom are reflective in a likeness of myself and others who are not similar to me, but reflect me in terms of who I am not. Regardless, the reflection is always a self reflection, but not one that occurs 'out there' or 'in them'. My self reflection is never actually seen in another person; it's invariably felt within my body, as when someone offends me I feel a tension and when someone is kind to I feel a warm glow. In this way I don't respond to other people; I respond to the senses that actually occur to me. Peoples face expression and their words are seen and heard, but these all affect the nervous system's sensation and can be felt. That is what I respond to. Everyone actually responds to that, but some don't know it.

The unconscious responce occurs when I lose attention on the feelings affected throughout my body, and a mindful response depends on me being aware that I'm actually responding to to my own body sensation.

In terms of anger, as on who knows this thing well, it is indeed a destructive force that arises unconsciously. When a person becomes more attuned to their body, they become aware of it's earliest stage is maybe a slight tension in the jaw or something. By learning about ones own anger one catches it early on before it rages out of control - like fire starts and is easily extinguished but if left to the woods it burns out of control, and will not subside until it exhausts itself. The thoughts people refer to are the obsessions toward these, and work like feul to fire, and the senses occur, the thought reacts, that manifests as senses, thought reacts more, and tenser and tenser until it just explode.

This means that being conscious is actually the same thing as control. When you recognise the earliest indicator of anger, tense jaw perhaps, the subsequent thought reaction is seen, but also interrupted by that stillness of awareness - which is though a space was made to accommodate this phenomena, thus dispelling the pressure.

Deepsoul
09-10-2015, 01:20 AM
Sorry I havent read all thats here ,But I think its ok to protect yourself from fear, not even giving it a look in sometimes for me is important ,I dismiss it immediately and replace it with positive thoughts and or visulisation, This is what I need now to rebuild after many year of neglct and abuse from myself and others and it works. I give my anger over to Jesus and watch and wait to have it tramsformed into calm assertiveness so that it is still validated but not blameful.

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 01:26 AM
May I ask where you see separation, maybe I am not clear in my wording or there is something I said correctly or incorrectly that would cause you to question a path separate to life?

there is many parts to the hiuman condition none of them is separate from each other yet if you look at just one of them such as anger and fear it may seem like its separate yet we are a sum total of our experiences in this present moment now


I will take out my words and go back to my original question pertaining to your words if you like?

I was curious as to how you see a *true* spiritual path awakening at the turning point you mentioned here- "It's not till we have conceeded to compassion and understanding that a true spiritual path is started"-heart

(I wont add anymore of my own words so you can focus just on that question)

Heart
09-10-2015, 03:27 AM
I will take out my words and go back to my original question pertaining to your words if you like?

I was curious as to how you see a *true* spiritual path awakening at the turning point you mentioned here- "It's not till we have conceeded to compassion and understanding that a true spiritual path is started"-heart

(I wont add anymore of my own words so you can focus just on that question)

I will try to give you an answer according to my own experiences rather than quote others words, its more authentic that way

“The source of thought is not thinking.
The source of feeling is not, itself, feeling.
The source of time and space is not moving in time and space.
The observer is a silent witness, unmoved and unmovable.
A miracle is occurring every moment.
You, the source, are unfolding your infinite potential into your own time/space as perception itself;
as thought, form, otherness, feeling, continuity, experience.
You stand eternally in your own infinite potential, as both everything and no-thing,
As the source of all that is expressed, nothing is unknown, and yet there is nothing to know.
As the source of movement, you are utterly still.
As the source of the illusion of separateness, you are utterly Whole and complete.
Wholeness can acquire nothing. That which is all and nothing has nowhere to move.
That which is already infinite, cannot become.
That which is present in this moment is locked in place by it's own infinity and eternity.
It can become neither more nor less, neither confused nor certain, neither here nor there, neither now nor then.
It simply and eternally is who You ARE.” Heart 2009

The above is a channelled message from an unknown source upon entering a state of complete and utter compassion that was only possible when I willingly handed over my entire existence in total and utter surrender to the unknown, (Death of ego, not a real death but a liberating experience of one)
How to explain it is going to be very hard with words as the above is from something inexplicable, and is the very source within each and every one of us. So I am going to start with a few questions…..

Would ego be the unknown source? How about the mind? The body? Maybe the soul or the spirit of man? May we consider thoughts as the unknowable source? Or could it be our feelings and emotions? When we meditate and still the mind is the same unknowing there? When we have those inspiring spiritual moments, is that the source of our being? The list goes on and on until you have come to a point of realisation that you have been searching for something when all along it has been there watching you all along.

None of the above questions come close to our inner unfathomable and mysterious source of being, they are all instruments of being, a tool, reverberating to their individual natures and inextricably intertwined with each other in such a way we see them as one…ie, us, I, and we. etc
Uncontrolled they become the animal in us ever feeding on our own ideals and way of living including anger and our greatest fears, which I am focusing on in this thread specifically because these two alone are responsible for 90% of our suffering as human beings,
In comparison to the channelled message above there is no compassion and understanding here powerful enough to hear the unspoken words of wisdom that befell me back then,

So what changed? What made such a message happen? I will tell you.

By focusing on our inner self by meditating we will eventually see ourselves acting out all of the above as if we were watching each and every experience good and bad from outside our mind, try watching your thoughts. What is watching? The mind? The soul? The body? None of these, it is something that is “not us” yet it is us, begs the question where the saying “Im of two minds” came from

Spiritual awakening starts when you realise you are more than the sum total of what you “think” you are ie I we and us, you become the observer and the observed, the witness and the witnessed, the player and the spectator of the game of life,

The separation you see in my previous posts is the animal and the spiritual sides of man, the spiritual path of awakening starts when the animal is controlled and the spirit is seen and known as self instead of the ego/mind/body complex.
If this is too simplistic, its because I am using words to describe something I am having difficulty explaining, I just know it is all nothing more, but thank you for allowing me to even try lol

Heart
09-10-2015, 03:44 AM
Thats getting toward my way thinking, and I'm an expert on anger, but a novice in fear.

The notion of reflection is OK, but as I live in the world I see people some of whom are reflective in a likeness of myself and others who are not similar to me, but reflect me in terms of who I am not. Regardless, the reflection is always a self reflection, but not one that occurs 'out there' or 'in them'. My self reflection is never actually seen in another person; it's invariably felt within my body, as when someone offends me I feel a tension and when someone is kind to I feel a warm glow. In this way I don't respond to other people; I respond to the senses that actually occur to me. Peoples face expression and their words are seen and heard, but these all affect the nervous system's sensation and can be felt. That is what I respond to. Everyone actually responds to that, but some don't know it.

The unconscious responce occurs when I lose attention on the feelings affected throughout my body, and a mindful response depends on me being aware that I'm actually responding to to my own body sensation.

In terms of anger, as on who knows this thing well, it is indeed a destructive force that arises unconsciously. When a person becomes more attuned to their body, they become aware of it's earliest stage is maybe a slight tension in the jaw or something. By learning about ones own anger one catches it early on before it rages out of control - like fire starts and is easily extinguished but if left to the woods it burns out of control, and will not subside until it exhausts itself. The thoughts people refer to are the obsessions toward these, and work like feul to fire, and the senses occur, the thought reacts, that manifests as senses, thought reacts more, and tenser and tenser until it just explode.

This means that being conscious is actually the same thing as control. When you recognise the earliest indicator of anger, tense jaw perhaps, the subsequent thought reaction is seen, but also interrupted by that stillness of awareness - which is though a space was made to accommodate this phenomena, thus dispelling the pressure.

The beauty of seeing everyone and everything as a reflection is that your experiences remain an internal one, and you can step to one side of nearly every situaltion you find yourself in as if you steped outside of your mind/body for a moment just to observe your own response to that one particular event, it is rather amusing to see my own ego try to induce anger and fear to something I walk away from

not only do you avoid any unwanted backlash from something or someone, but you are actually preserving inner energy, it is the act of non-action that you recieve grace from negativity

Deepsoul
09-10-2015, 03:54 AM
Love that preserving inner energy, now thats being smart and loving to and for oneself.....:)

Heart
09-10-2015, 04:01 AM
Love that preserving inner energy, now thats being smart and loving to and for oneself.....:)

beautiful isnt it

and it is ever expanding within, I often wonder if the body and mind is big enough lol

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 04:07 AM
I will try to give you an answer according to my own experiences rather than quote others words, its more authentic that way

“The source of thought is not thinking.
The source of feeling is not, itself, feeling.
The source of time and space is not moving in time and space.
The observer is a silent witness, unmoved and unmovable.
A miracle is occurring every moment.
You, the source, are unfolding your infinite potential into your own time/space as perception itself;
as thought, form, otherness, feeling, continuity, experience.
You stand eternally in your own infinite potential, as both everything and no-thing,
As the source of all that is expressed, nothing is unknown, and yet there is nothing to know.
As the source of movement, you are utterly still.
As the source of the illusion of separateness, you are utterly Whole and complete.
Wholeness can acquire nothing. That which is all and nothing has nowhere to move.
That which is already infinite, cannot become.
That which is present in this moment is locked in place by it's own infinity and eternity.
It can become neither more nor less, neither confused nor certain, neither here nor there, neither now nor then.
It simply and eternally is who You ARE.” Heart 2009

The above is a channelled message from an unknown source upon entering a state of complete and utter compassion that was only possible when I willingly handed over my entire existence in total and utter surrender to the unknown, (Death of ego, not a real death but a liberating experience of one)
How to explain it is going to be very hard with words as the above is from something inexplicable, and is the very source within each and every one of us. So I am going to start with a few questions…..

[QUOTE]Would ego be the unknown source? How about the mind? The body? Maybe the soul or the spirit of man? May we consider thoughts as the unknowable source? Or could it be our feelings and emotions? When we meditate and still the mind is the same unknowing there? When we have those inspiring spiritual moments, is that the source of our being? The list goes on and on until you have come to a point of realisation that you have been searching for something when all along it has been there watching you all along.

Watching you or is you?

None of the above questions come close to our inner unfathomable and mysterious source of being, they are all instruments of being, a tool, reverberating to their individual natures and inextricably intertwined with each other in such a way we see them as one…ie, us, I, and we. etc
Uncontrolled they become the animal in us ever feeding on our own ideals and way of living including anger and our greatest fears, which I am focusing on in this thread specifically because these two alone are responsible for 90% of our suffering as human beings,
In comparison to the channelled message above there is no compassion and understanding here powerful enough to hear the unspoken words of wisdom that befell me back then,




So what changed? What made such a message happen? I will tell you.

By focusing on our inner self by meditating we will eventually see ourselves acting out all of the above as if we were watching each and every experience good and bad from outside our mind, try watching your thoughts. What is watching? The mind? The soul? The body? None of these, it is something that is “not us” yet it is us, begs the question where the saying “Im of two minds” came from


I didn't meditate to have similar experiences as yourself. I only started meditating to immerse in the source of all *I am* later in my journey, when I came to know myself, my true nature. So of course you offer your way for you. But there is no right way or point of leaving the old and entering a new state of awareness that is *the way* it is or will be. So that is the point I am making in the way you are addressing things here. It is sounding like it is the *way* when the way has many ways.

Spiritual awakening starts when you realise you are more than the sum total of what you “think” you are ie I we and us, you become the observer and the observed, the witness and the witnessed, the player and the spectator of the game of life,

My spiritual awakening/dark night of the soul (when spirits came to show me a way out, which is why I call it this) happened to awaken me realize/aware of many things, what you offer is just one aspect of awakening which is an ongoing process of life in every way of itself. And if I look back twenty years prior to this, I was awakening long before I faced my fear and anger space, so I guess this is what I am questioning in your sharing. That its all so different for each of us in many ways of itself. So how your speaking is coming across like it is this way for all, where as some do it the other way around.


The separation you see in my previous posts is the animal and the spiritual sides of man, the spiritual path of awakening starts when the animal is controlled and the spirit is seen and known as self instead of the ego/mind/body complex.


Not always, I did it the opposite, so your view is only offering one way out of many ways to reach this awareness. My spiritual awakening lead me to understand it all in myself as an unfolding process to help me see... My spiritual awareness (people out of body building it one with me) entered when I couldn't see through my nature as I knew it, as one shared space, but that didn't mean I could see instantly all that you are sharing, it was only the beginning leading me to see more fully what wasn't in alignment with my true nature. Controlled or embraced fully as you? Spirit seen? what is that, seeing a spirit out of body? How do you determine spirit in yourself? When you are the sum of the whole (your whole self)? How do you apply that to being more in touch with an expanded understanding of yourself? When your simply letting go and building awareness deeper one with all life in a continuum of life and experiences?


If this is too simplistic, its because I am using words to describe something I am having difficulty explaining, I just know it is all nothing more, but thank you for allowing me to even try lol


Thanks for sharing such a complex natured answer.

Heart
09-10-2015, 04:12 AM
Sorry I havent read all thats here ,But I think its ok to protect yourself from fear, not even giving it a look in sometimes for me is important ,I dismiss it immediately and replace it with positive thoughts and or visulisation, This is what I need now to rebuild after many year of neglct and abuse from myself and others and it works. I give my anger over to Jesus and watch and wait to have it tramsformed into calm assertiveness so that it is still validated but not blameful.


I have a cup in my mind upon which I pour all my and that of others negativity and as it starts to overflow I turn the cup upside down untill it is empty, the contents of which is given to the creator to deal with as I do not have the energy to waste within such a short life span thats been given to me at this time
I will often say. " transmute or neutralize this negative energy for the betterment of mankind"

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 04:14 AM
I have a cup in my mind upon which I pour all my and that of others negativity and as it starts to overflow I turn the cup upside down untill it is empty, the contents of which is given to the creator to deal with as I do not have the energy to waste within such a short life span thats been given to me at this time
I will often say. " transmute or neutralize this negative energy for the betterment of mankind"

that helps your mind but what if you walk out and face it for real on the street when someone dives at you with a fist?

Living it for real?

Your not going to say out loud, "transmute this negative energy for the betterment of mankind to an angry person" with your magic wand...coming at you in a rage are you?

Deepsoul
09-10-2015, 04:46 AM
Surprisingly I can still act pretty quickly and efficiently in an emergency situation its just all the emotional stuff that can trip me up, although Im getting much much better ,Thanks for the extra affirmation Heart...Its sorta what Jesus does for me ,I had bad pain this sarvo and I said I command that this unwanted evil leave this body immediately in the name of Jesus Christ, magic love it when it works. Its like the higher power and me working togethes....:)

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 04:58 AM
Surprisingly I can still act pretty quickly and efficiently in an emergency situation its just all the emotional stuff that can trip me up, although Im getting much much better ,Thanks for the extra affirmation Heart...Its sorta what Jesus does for me ,I had bad pain this sarvo and I said I command that this unwanted evil leave this body immediately in the name of Jesus Christ, magic love it when it works. Its like the higher power and me working togethes....:)

Maybe it was just the time for it to leave/pass, (your physical body actually stopped hurting because something shifted in that part of you) and you synched up with your words and intention, to show you the whole in yourself as one source? Not just your words speaking and magically making it go away?

Heart
09-10-2015, 05:18 AM
Watching you or is you?

May I suggest a theory....

I would liken the watcher as two birds in the same tree, the first one is "you" or identity of you going about your daily life jumping from one branch of life to another experiencing anger and fear conpletely oblivious to the other bird that is silently and patiently watching you, waiting for you to recognise this bird is your "higher self", every now and then you will hear a calling as if someone is calling you, this is your watcher wispering into your inner ear to "awaken" If you listen and follow that inner voice it will lead you towards your inner light,

you are both birds as one, watching and watcher at the same time, the tree is the illusion of separation and time is the healer, ie patience of the spirit just beyond our illusions experienced in the living as a "waiting for something to happen"
its why "patience is a virtue"

I didn't meditate to have similar experiences as yourself. I only started meditating to immerse in the source of all *I am* later in my journey, when I came to know myself, my true nature. So of course you offer your way for you. But there is no right way or point of leaving the old and entering a new state of awareness that is *the way* it is or will be. So that is the point I am making in the way you are addressing things here. It is sounding like it is the *way* when the way has many ways.

My own experiences is just one way of infinate posibilties. likewise your are just as infinate within yours, as it is with every living soul no one person or soul is the same yet we can share similar experiences, that is soo very cool, I could never truly know your experiences as you do


My spiritual awakening/dark night of the soul (when spirits came to show me a way out, which is why I call it this) happened to awaken me realize/aware of many things, what you offer is just one aspect of awakening which is an ongoing process of life in every way of itself. And if I look back twenty years prior to this, I was awakening long before I faced my fear and anger space, so I guess this is what I am questioning in your sharing. That its all so different for each of us in many ways of itself. So how your speaking is coming across like it is this way for all, where as some do it the other way around.

I am only offering one way of "seeing" my experiences and how I deal with them yet it will never be seen the same for another person nor would I expect another to follow it, I hope my words instill the questions needed for others to find there own understanding of there inner workings

Not always, I did it the opposite, so your view is only offering one way out of many ways to reach this awareness. My spiritual awakening lead me to understand it all in myself as an unfolding process to help me see... My spiritual awareness (people out of body building it one with me) entered when I couldn't see through my nature as I knew it, as one shared space, but that didn't mean I could see instantly all that you are sharing, it was only the beginning leading me to see more fully what wasn't in alignment with my true nature. Controlled or embraced fully as you? Spirit seen? what is that, seeing a spirit out of body? How do you determine spirit in yourself? When you are the sum of the whole (your whole self)? How do you apply that to being more in touch with an expanded understanding of yourself? When your simply letting go and building awareness deeper one with all life in a continuum of life and experiences?

I am going to answer just one of your questions, hopefully they will answer the rest here.
How do you determine spirit in yourself?

when you are feeling disatisfied with all things in life and know there is no permanance to it, you will feel a very deep seated sadness in your heart, that is when you will hear your own spirit call you, you will never find true happiness in "things" out there even vast amounts of money will keep you in a state of fear and anger but you deep seated happiness of your heart,

Remember Im not offering just one path one way is for all, just something for you and hopefully others to ponder on, I am just a person expressing what ive experienced

thank you

Heart
09-10-2015, 05:37 AM
that helps your mind but what if you walk out and face it for real on the street when someone dives at you with a fist?

Living it for real?

Your not going to say out loud, "transmute this negative energy for the betterment of mankind to an angry person" with your magic wand...coming at you in a rage are you?


I will tell you a tail about one such person who thought it was a good idea to deliberatly kick me in the shin while playing football instead of kicking the ball a yard in front of me, as he bent down to pick the ball up I instinctivly knocked his lights out, he is a black belt martial artist he had to have two months off training because I responded back with equal force to his

I used my anger for its proper purpose and showed no fear in the face of adversity and before anyone here says thats not spiritual I will remind all here that enough blood and tears has been spilt to fill ALL our oceans in the name of "God"

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 05:39 AM
I would liken the watcher as two birds in the same tree, the first one is "you" or identity of you going about your daily life jumping from one branch of life to another experiencing anger and fear conpletely oblivious to the other bird that is silently and patiently watching you, waiting for you to recognise this bird is your "higher self", every now and then you will hear a calling as if someone is calling you, this is your watcher wispering into your inner ear to "awaken" If you listen and follow that inner voice it will lead you towards your inner light,

Hmmm...What if you don't have this your whole life? Does that mean your not connected to your higher self? People walk around unaware of this *so called higher self* (what you are calling this) and still let go of anger and fear. For them its just letting go and living less affected in that way, they don't need to bring another bird into the picture...

you are both birds as one, watching and watcher at the same time, the tree is the illusion of separation and time is the healer, ie patience of the spirit just beyond our illusions experienced in the living as a "waiting for something to happen"
its why "patience is a virtue"

You or do you mean- I am both birds as in YOU?







I am only offering one way of "seeing" my experiences and how I deal with them yet it will never be seen the same for another person nor would I expect another to follow it, I hope my words instill the questions needed for others to find there own understanding of there inner workings

But I find that when I listen to how you are relating and speaking, its like it's the *way*.... through your language expression in how you are expressing it. If you were to read back, it does send a message out for me to question what appears to be more than the I experiencing... The YOU and we is really the I speaking throughout your shared expresssion.


when you are feeling disatisfied with all things in life and know there is no permanance to it, you will feel a very deep seated sadness in your heart, that is when you will hear your own spirit call you, you will never find true happiness in "things" out there even vast amounts of money will keep you in a state of fear and anger but you deep seated happiness of your heart,

Here are all those YOU's again.

Remember Im not offering just one path one way is for all, just something for you and hopefully others to ponder on, I am just a person expressing what ive experienced.

Are you expressing the *I* experience, you could have fooled me..:wink:

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 05:45 AM
I will tell you a tail about one such person who thought it was a good idea to deliberatly kick me in the shin while playing football instead of kicking the ball a yard in front of me, as he bent down to pick the ball up I instinctivly knocked his lights out, he is a black belt martial artist he had to have two months off training because I responded back with equal force to his

I used my anger for its proper purpose and showed no fear in the face of adversity and before anyone here says thats not spiritual I will remind all here that enough blood and tears has been spilt to fill ALL our oceans in the name of "God"

Anger is to be responded with equal force, in the name of love and fear heart I am shocked to hear a compassionate loving person play life games in this way.

I like how you validated your own action in the name of god. Where as protecting self comes in various ways of itself and its own nature of course. God has nothing to do with human nature really in my view.

DO you wonder about this experience whether their was something deeper to learn in the face of another's force and anger and your own reaction that played out as an equal force?

My compassionate side thought it might like to ask you..

Gem
09-10-2015, 07:12 AM
The beauty of seeing everyone and everything as a reflection is that your experiences remain an internal one, and you can step to one side of nearly every situaltion you find yourself in as if you steped outside of your mind/body for a moment just to observe your own response to that one particular event, it is rather amusing to see my own ego try to induce anger and fear to something I walk away from

not only do you avoid any unwanted backlash from something or someone, but you are actually preserving inner energy, it is the act of non-action that you recieve grace from negativity
That's right, I was just being specific that the responses that people make are to their own sensational experience, and being aware on the feel level of experience enables more mindful responses, and less unconscious reactivity. In this context, anger is invariably an unconscious reaction and unconscious reaction is like the nidus of personal suffering. This is, as you say, tied to the 'ego' - and there's no difference beween ego and reactivity. In the meditation this is apparent as reactivity is always concurrent with self referential thought.

Heart
09-10-2015, 01:29 PM
Anger is to be responded with equal force, in the name of love and fear heart I am shocked to hear a compassionate loving person play life games in this way.

I like how you validated your own action in the name of god. Where as protecting self comes in various ways of itself and its own nature of course. God has nothing to do with human nature really in my view.

DO you wonder about this experience whether their was something deeper to learn in the face of another's force and anger and your own reaction that played out as an equal force?

My compassionate side thought it might like to ask you..

I was compasionate. I let the man live. if I am to be dished out blind rage from someone then I am in my right to end the negative energy in what ever form that may be there and then. I dont make these rules up, take a look for yourself... and so I quote...

[Exodus 21:23~25] And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

I am glad you are stunned by my post here as Im equally stunned by your response to my inner cup which has absolutly nothing to do with aggression
and everything to do with dispelling negative energy, you have to go beyond the phisical to see that not one karmic event is involved in that method and as such there would never be any encounter with someone

You are putting way too much into something that is rather simple to do.

Heart
09-10-2015, 01:33 PM
That's right, I was just being specific that the responses that people make are to their own sensational experience, and being aware on the feel level of experience enables more mindful responses, and less unconscious reactivity. In this context, anger is invariably an unconscious reaction and unconscious reaction is like the nidus of personal suffering. This is, as you say, tied to the 'ego' - and there's no difference beween ego and reactivity. In the meditation this is apparent as reactivity is always concurrent with self referential thought.


and all we can do is but laugh when we can see the ego/mind try to play and trick us

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 01:50 PM
[QUOTE=heart]I was compasionate. I let the man live. if I am to be dished out blind rage from someone then I am in my right to end the negative energy in what ever form that may be there and then. I dont make these rules up, take a look for yourself... and so I quote...

You don't really know in your actions if he would live or die though, it was unknown in your haste of protective stance to know what repercussions would follow from you doing this. So you did not let the man live. You cant tell me you knew this in that moment. He lived because it was not his time to die. There is no right or wrong in this choice, but their is always more...(and not from scriptures necessarily )

[Exodus 21:23~25] And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Who wrote this, do you believe in this?

I am glad you are stunned by my post here as Im equally stunned by your response to my inner cup which has absolutly nothing to do with aggression
and everything to do with dispelling negative energy, you have to go beyond the phisical to see that not one karmic event is involved in that method and as such there would never be any encounter with someone


Dispelling negative energy works in so many ways, not just one way. TO go beyond the physical would you be engaging your physical body this way? Wouldn't the experience of compassion and love bring you compassion and love experiences without physical force? Fighting fire with fire is not the only way out and being on either side of this event, opens doorways to show more for both. Beliefs in believing one can dispel negative energy in any way they want seems to me that would only bring you more of what you believe in. And not expanding beyond this belief in yourself, because you are conditioned in this way.
You are putting way too much into something that is rather simple to do.



I am not really, perhaps that is your perception.

Heart
09-10-2015, 02:05 PM
Hmmm...What if you don't have this your whole life? Does that mean your not connected to your higher self? People walk around unaware of this *so called higher self* (what you are calling this) and still let go of anger and fear. For them its just letting go and living less affected in that way, they don't need to bring another bird into the picture...


You or do you mean- I am both birds as in YOU?

Itb just a theory, its created to make you question your morality and spirit, I can not tell you what is your spirit without it being seen diferently from my own perspective of it because as is already happening here you are putting questions forward that make no sence to what I have already written ie....

"What if you don't have this your whole life?" I see this question as.. you seeing spirit as have a begining and and ending

"Does that mean your not connected to your higher self?" I see this as you seeing separation within when all separation is in fact the illusion


People walk around unaware of this *so called higher self* (what you are calling this) and still let go of anger and fear. For them its just letting go and living less affected in that way, they don't need to bring another bird into the picture...

yes, exactly, and no, your thininking here is two fold you are asking about something that essentually does not exsist (my so called higher self) untill you reach an awarness of somthing that is watching and waiting, in the mean time there is no reason why anger and fear can still be felt known and executed,


But I find that when I listen to how you are relating and speaking, its like it's the *way*.... through your language expression in how you are expressing it. If you were to read back, it does send a message out for me to question what appears to be more than the I experiencing... The YOU and we is really the I speaking throughout your shared expresssion.

sigh, lol. who am I to give you my words and expect you to ahere to them as if they are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, all that I have written thus far is just an expression or perception of something that may or may not be true to you, or you have every right to question every detail of my words to see how true I am to my own heart, I do appreciate the challenge too, grin



Here are all those YOU's again.



Are you expressing the *I* experience, you could have fooled me..:wink:[/QUOTE]

I am just being who I should be, its good that you are questioning it, now I ask you a question....

if I am a mirror, what reflection do you see of yourself, he he he

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 02:09 PM
Hmmm...What if you don't have this your whole life? Does that mean your not connected to your higher self? People walk around unaware of this *so called higher self* (what you are calling this) and still let go of anger and fear. For them its just letting go and living less affected in that way, they don't need to bring another bird into the picture...


You or do you mean- I am both birds as in YOU?

Itb just a theory, its created to make you question your morality and spirit, I can not tell you what is your spirit without it being seen diferently from my own perspective of it because as is already happening here you are putting questions forward that make no sence to what I have already written ie....

"What if you don't have this your whole life?" I see this question as.. you seeing spirit as have a begining and and ending

"Does that mean your not connected to your higher self?" I see this as you seeing separation within when all separation is in fact the illusion


People walk around unaware of this *so called higher self* (what you are calling this) and still let go of anger and fear. For them its just letting go and living less affected in that way, they don't need to bring another bird into the picture...

yes, exactly, and no, your thininking here is two fold you are asking about something that essentually does not exsist (my so called higher self) untill you reach an awarness of somthing that is watching and waiting, in the mean time there is no reason why anger and fear can still be felt known and executed,


But I find that when I listen to how you are relating and speaking, its like it's the *way*.... through your language expression in how you are expressing it. If you were to read back, it does send a message out for me to question what appears to be more than the I experiencing... The YOU and we is really the I speaking throughout your shared expresssion.

sigh, lol. who am I to give you my words and expect you to ahere to them as if they are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, all that I have written thus far is just an expression or perception of something that may or may not be true to you, or you have every right to question every detail of my words to see how true I am to my own heart, I do appreciate the challenge too, grin



Here are all those YOU's again.



Are you expressing the *I* experience, you could have fooled me..:wink:

I am just being who I should be, its good that you are questioning it, now I ask you a question....

if I am a mirror, what reflection do you see of yourself, he he he

We are both reflections for each other. I always question where my learned side seeks to bridge itself with those still learning, it helps me to fully build my realizations that need fine tuning.... hehehe

Heart
09-10-2015, 02:53 PM
You don't really know in your actions if he would live or die though, it was unknown in your haste of protective stance to know what repercussions would follow from you doing this. So you did not let the man live. You cant tell me you knew this in that moment. He lived because it was not his time to die. There is no right or wrong in this choice, but their is always more...(and not from scriptures necessarily )
You are not seeing beyond the form of man, look beyond the phisical action and you will see that all I am responding to is negative energy from that of another source that could not find balance within itself, if any death was born of my actions it would be the cracking of his egg shell of an ego, I see his life as energy as is mine, so know without a shadow of a doubt that his life would never end in that moment, my actions were equally justified in seeing that both he and I have learnt something from this, how do I know this, he told me that he would never use his martial arts in vain again. I have never had to use anger since that time to overcome negativity, a cup in my mind will sufice thank you

[Exodus 21:23~25] And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Who wrote this, do you believe in this? Exodus 21:23~25 and yes, we are all equal in our nature. so it makes sence to act like it

Dispelling negative energy works in so many ways, not just one way. Agreed

TO go beyond the physical would you be engaging your physical body this way? allways

Wouldn't the experience of compassion and love bring you compassion and love experiences without physical force? compassion and love is anger and fear not recognised, you cant have one without the other both are equally important to instil a balance, that balance is a natural judgement in any given moment.

Fighting fire with fire is not the only way out and being on either side of this event, opens doorways to show more for both. Beliefs in believing one can dispel negative energy in any way they want seems to me that would only bring you more of what you believe in. And not expanding beyond this belief in yourself, because you are conditioned in this way
the only conditioning is that of an ego trying to be negative and an equally negative response to stop it dead in its tracks, look at it like a balancing act in this case two negatives made a positive
Quote:
You are putting way too much into something that is rather simple to do.
I am not really, perhaps that is your perception.
lol fair enough.

Heart
09-10-2015, 03:02 PM
I am just being who I should be, its good that you are questioning it, now I ask you a question....



We are both reflections for each other. I always question where my learned side seeks to bridge itself with those still learning, it helps me to fully build my realizations that need fine tuning.... hehehe


I see those still learning as masters of themselves and great teachers of those who have already mastered, which if I look at it we are allways learning from something or someone,

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 03:14 PM
I will tell you a tail about one such person who thought it was a good idea to deliberatly kick me in the shin while playing football instead of kicking the ball a yard in front of me, as he bent down to pick the ball up I instinctivly knocked his lights out, he is a black belt martial artist he had to have two months off training because I responded back with equal force to his

I used my anger for its proper purpose and showed no fear in the face of adversity and before anyone here says thats not spiritual I will remind all here that enough blood and tears has been spilt to fill ALL our oceans in the name of "God"


Interesting heart, you are indeed taking people on a well planned journey through this thread as someone else pointed out earlier.

So someone kicks you in the shin, you under the firm grip of vindictive revenge and uncontrollable reactive anger, hit the person almost immediately in such a manner that could have likely killed him...except that your pity for him left him alive while he couldnt practice for weeks and was in great agony and perhaps left scared and scarred of your lack of self control, fear and anger. How you were so absolutely sure the kick in your shin wasnt an accident is another question - so sure that you could plan your next move of going to the extent of possibly leaving him dead (if it were not for your pity or in all truth, not time for the man to die yet by gods grace) to take immediate effect.

Even by your quote of some scriptures, if thats the absolute guide for you - the most you were allowed to do was accidentally kick the other man in his shin, which couldcould have occured or never - the accident would have happened depending on the other guys karma, that you bring karma into the subject too. Yet you decide to be the karma god dishing out your own karma upon yourself, unknown to yourself ofcourse. Of course heart, it is on your karma.

There could have been many ways you could have transformed your fear and anger, that is if it was not planned anger indeed to serve that particular purpise of disabling that man. One example could have been, you play so well that you beat him in the game itself...but guess you didnt feel competent enough to do so. Or you could have made sure you madepeople and fellow players aware of this mans cheap tricks during a game, such that everyone, including yourself were protected in future from such dangers...would have dispelled such possibility of similar wrongdoing by others too..the positive action ripples could have reached way beyond yourself....make one feel fear for the right reasons by the right means - fear of wrong doing.

Heart
09-10-2015, 03:50 PM
Interesting heart, you are indeed taking people on a well planned journey through this thread as someone else pointed out earlier.

So someone kicks you in the shin, you under the firm grip of vindictive revenge and uncontrollable reactive anger, hit the person almost immediately in such a manner that could have likely killed him...except that your pity for him left him alive while he couldnt practice for weeks and was in great agony and perhaps left scared and scarred of your lack of self control, fear and anger. How you were so absolutely sure the kick in your shin wasnt an accident is another question - so sure that you could plan your next move of going to the extent of possibly leaving him dead (if it were not for your pity or in all truth, not time for the man to die yet by gods grace) to take immediate effect.

Even by your quote of some scriptures, if thats the absolute guide for you - the most you were allowed to do was accidentally kick the other man in his shin, which couldcould have occured or never - the accident would have happened depending on the other guys karma, that you bring karma into the subject too. Yet you decide to be the karma god dishing out your own karma upon yourself, unknown to yourself ofcourse. Of course heart, it is on your karma.

There could have been many ways you could have transformed your fear and anger, that is if it was not planned anger indeed to serve that particular purpise of disabling that man. One example could have been, you play so well that you beat him in the game itself...but guess you didnt feel competent enough to do so. Or you could have made sure you madepeople and fellow players aware of this mans cheap tricks during a game, such that everyone, including yourself were protected in future from such dangers...would have dispelled such possibility of similar wrongdoing by others too..the positive action ripples could have reached way beyond yourself....make one feel fear for the right reasons by the right means - fear of wrong doing.


maybe you need to ask of the damage he did to my shin and how I had to have time off work for weeks after because of a chiped bone that caused a bloodclot in my leg, was I not capable of dieing from such an injury
when Im being questioned on this part of the thread it should be remembered, all who read it can only speculate of the ifs buts and maybes, and as you were not there such comments about how karmic it is or how right and wrong it is, is irelivant, you are not my creator
no one else here can say for sure if such aggression would have caused death yet it is automaticly assumed that I have casued a karmic event, so again your words are not looking beyond the form of man and dealing with the phisical act as if it was real
if you want to really look beyond what this thread is about you need to focus on balance and energy not how karmic a hit is

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 04:08 PM
Exactly. It goes to show it was a poor example to help relate to the really good and helpful things you started off saying through this thread.

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 04:18 PM
To the person who commented on working on thoughts. I bet they know about cbt. Thoughts, feelings, behaviour. The cycle can be broken anywhere. (Theres a saying which perfectly applies here which i fail to remember. The gist of the saying being something like just keep shifting the rules of the game such that one never wins the game of self mastery in this case in transforming negative emotions into positive actions and emotions, except the one who keeps changing the rules, of course)

Heart
09-10-2015, 04:21 PM
maybe it was a poor example, there are other examples I could give but I would rather give you something thats real, not made up or quoted from.

considering that this story started over a cup in my mind to clarify that negative energy from others can be transmuted in a non karmic manor, I gave this real life example of a part of my life I will never forget

it almost seems pointless, yet it happend, I wrote about it and it shows that anger and all its energy are illusions, no real damage came of this event, no death happend yet I feel I learnt something from it

thank you for your response

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 04:23 PM
Btw, heart, i apologise for using anothers weak comment to poke at you, which was the first paragraph of my first post in this thread.

Heart
09-10-2015, 04:34 PM
To the person who commented on working on thoughts. I bet they know about cbt. Thoughts, feelings, behaviour. The cycle can be broken anywhere. (Theres a saying which perfectly applies here which i fail to remember. The gist of the saying being something like just keep shifting the rules of the game such that one never wins the game of self mastery in this case in transforming negative emotions into positive actions and emotions, except the one who keeps changing the rules, of course)

If im not mistaken that saying may be "see non-action in action" which is Buddhism,

this works quite well so long as you have presence of mind, that is not so easily achievable, easy to do hard to maintain especially if we are sideblinded by anger and fear, and can be if you would see it this was blinding

Heart
09-10-2015, 04:36 PM
Btw, heart, i apologise for using anothers weak comment to poke at you, which was the first paragraph of my first post in this thread.

every word you say is important to me, you give me an opportunity to respond and hopefully I do not fall into the trap of negativity in the process, so thank you

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 04:41 PM
maybe it was a poor example, there are other examples I could give but I would rather give you something thats real, not made up or quoted from.

considering that this story started over a cup in my mind to clarify that negative energy from others can be transmuted in a non karmic manor, I gave this real life example of a part of my life I will never forget

it almost seems pointless, yet it happend, I wrote about it and it shows that anger and all its energy are illusions, no real damage came of this event, no death happend yet I feel I learnt something from it

thank you for your response

Wow. Either it was a poor example for not fitting what you propsed or you did not intend to follow through what you originally proposed.

Whichever way you look at it, your example is definitely not an example of what you state as wishing to clarify, in each and every way the example can be considered.

From your responses to naturesflow you have learnt nothing...too tedious to copy paste and quote on my little tablet.

But, for the sake of it. Where exactly and how exactly did you transmute the negative energy in a non karmic manner. Lets ignore the latest detail you posted about your injuries, as it wasnt part of your original example...even otherwise...you are asking yourself and everyone to make assumptions abour that other mans karma which is impossible for many reasons...thats another one for your own karma.

Or have i got it all wrong. Re reading you post quoted here, is your focus more about manipulating karma (which isnt really possible, except as a worthless to self and dangerous to another kind of illusion) and consider only killing as something which would trigger karma?

Mistakes happen...may be you werent very aware of transmuting negative energy as you wished to then, doesnt mean that experience which you can never forget can be manipulated into something it isnt....it was what it was...his karma, your karma and that of those who were the recipents of violent attacks from either of you, since.

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 04:51 PM
If im not mistaken that saying may be "see non-action in action" which is Buddhism,

this works quite well so long as you have presence of mind, that is not so easily achievable, easy to do hard to maintain especially if we are sideblinded by anger and fear, and can be if you would see it this was blinding

True. But telling oneself that one has achieved something because one knows very well that they havent acheived it due to it being seen as difficult to serves no purpose either....except to blind oneself, thereby doing more and more of stuff that opposes that which one desires to achieve yet finds it difficult..putting more and more guilt, confusing defenses, etc between the aim and the individual.

Heart
09-10-2015, 04:58 PM
Wow. Either it was a poor example for not fitting what you propsed or you did not intend to follow through what you originally proposed.

Whichever way you look at it, your example is definitely not an example of what you state as wishing to clarify, in each and every way the example can be considered.
Does it matter, you have made it a poor example, to I its what happend, end of.

[B]From your responses to naturesflow you have learnt nothing...too tedious to copy paste and quote on my little tablet.
again you assume I have learnt nothing, you can never trutly know me, I have not commented on what Ive learnt from naturesflow so how do you know what is or isnt learnt,

But, for the sake of it. Where exactly and how exactly did you transmute the negative energy in a non karmic manner. Lets ignore the latest detail you posted about your injuries, as it wasnt part of your original example...even otherwise...you are asking yourself and everyone to make assumptions abour that other mans karma which is impossible for many reasons...thats another one for your own karma.
I have a cup in my mind it overflows and I empty it.... whats karmic about that?

Or have i got it all wrong. Re reading you post quoted here, is your focus more about manipulating karma (which isnt really possible, except as a worthless to self and dangerous to another kind of illusion) and consider only killing as something which would trigger karma?
lol i manipulate nothing I just balance or try to balance the minds abilitry to (in this case) get angry and fear

Mistakes happen...may be you werent very aware of transmuting negative energy as you wished to then, doesnt mean that experience which you can never forget can be manipulated into something it isnt....it was what it was...his karma, your karma and that of those who were the recipents of violent attacks from either of you, since.

if there is any karma involved in the event I have thus described above then it is not up to you or I to change, its neither good nor bad what happend unless ofcourse you are asumming karma is a bad thing?

Heart
09-10-2015, 05:02 PM
True. But telling oneself that one has achieved something because one knows very well that they havent acheived it due to it being seen as difficult to serves no purpose either....except to blind oneself, thereby doing more and more of stuff that opposes that which one desires to achieve yet finds it difficult..putting more and more guilt, confusing defenses, etc between the aim and the individual.

so when you act with no action you have a presence of mind"

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 05:15 PM
Wow. Either it was a poor example for not fitting what you propsed or you did not intend to follow through what you originally proposed.

Whichever way you look at it, your example is definitely not an example of what you state as wishing to clarify, in each and every way the example can be considered.
Does it matter, you have made it a poor example, to I its what happend, end of.
exactly. End of. I dont think anyone can challenge the experience itself for all that it is and much more that we havent heard, to you. And that matters most...but apart from that...

[B]From your responses to naturesflow you have learnt nothing...too tedious to copy paste and quote on my little tablet.
again you assume I have learnt nothing, you can never trutly know me, I have not commented on what Ive learnt from naturesflow so how do you know what is or isnt learnt,
no. I didnt say you learnt something from naturesflow, but what you revealed you learnt about your own experience in response to her questions.

But, for the sake of it. Where exactly and how exactly did you transmute the negative energy in a non karmic manner. Lets ignore the latest detail you posted about your injuries, as it wasnt part of your original example...even otherwise...you are asking yourself and everyone to make assumptions abour that other mans karma which is impossible for many reasons...thats another one for your own karma.
I have a cup in my mind it overflows and I empty it.... whats karmic about that?

Or have i got it all wrong. Re reading you post quoted here, is your focus more about manipulating karma (which isnt really possible, except as a worthless to self and dangerous to another kind of illusion) and consider only killing as something which would trigger karma?
lol i manipulate nothing I just balance or try to balance the minds abilitry to (in this case) get angry and fear
in that case i got the thing i got wrong, wrong.

Mistakes happen...may be you werent very aware of transmuting negative energy as you wished to then, doesnt mean that experience which you can never forget can be manipulated into something it isnt....it was what it was...his karma, your karma and that of those who were the recipents of violent attacks from either of you, since.

if there is any karma involved in the event I have thus described above then it is not up to you or I to change, its neither good nor bad what happend unless ofcourse you are asumming karma is a bad thing?

exactly. No, i aint assuming anything. Karma is neither good or bad - it just is what it is, isnt it? What one accumulates of it or how one balances is, could be in positive and negative right?

My responses in green.

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 05:24 PM
so when you act with no action you have a presence of mind"

Depends on the situation and kind of action taken, right? How can no action be presence of mind in all cases? And isnt no action in a way, action itself?

No action in case of fear or anger, for example here, would be giving into it, wouldnt it, except if the no action is to find a way to act, if one isnt used to already doing so, where action involves transmuting the said negative emotions into something useful, positive and purposeful?

Heart
09-10-2015, 05:24 PM
Im no guru on karma, it is just as mysterious as life itself, it seems to lend itself as a natural law of cause and effect and we all know that these constantly change so it really begs the question if karma is real or not,

we need a master here to tell us lol

btw, I am a very placid mild manered person, I could not hurt a fly without feeling sorry for it

Heart
09-10-2015, 05:40 PM
Depends on the situation and kind of action taken, right? How can no action be presence of mind in all cases? And isnt no action in a way, action itself?

No action in case of fear or anger, for example here, would be giving into it, wouldnt it, except if the no action is to find a way to act, if one isnt used to already doing so, where action involves transmuting the said negative emotions into something useful, positive and purposeful?

now that is one good question!!! or a few lol

any situation that invokes you to think and feel (Cause) has unlimited potential for you to respond, (Effect)

we are subjected to all kinds of actions and reactions in our suroundings and situations, and when you stop responding to them you are no longer in cause and effect, (presence of mind) ie you are acting in this present moment by having an inner stillness movment counteracted by stillness, its rather beautifull actually

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 05:42 PM
Im no guru on karma, it is just as mysterious as life itself, it seems to lend itself as a natural law of cause and effect and we all know that these constantly change so it really begs the question if karma is real or not,

we need a master here to tell us lol

btw, I am a very placid mild manered person, I could not hurt a fly without feeling sorry for it


I am not either, except for what i have learnt through observation of my own life, its experiences and from observing the role of the participants of those experiences of mine (forced by life itself).

However something doesnt become non existant just because one doesnt understand how it works. There are millions of examples to prove this.

Observing own life with all sincerety, honesty and humility in itself will prive the existance of something which would be fit into the already existing karma label. But if ne doesnt want to, questioning if its real or not serves no real purpose. However, its not the law that constNtly chNges, its how it applies to each, as each has multiples choices to chose from with regards to how this law applies to each....if all humans followed a single line of thinking and behaviour and of processing info, the law woukd be simply applied in the exact same manner to each of us. But of course, we are the great humans, specialists in messing up everything we lay our sight or even thought on to acheive ends which are illusory apparently, and not really part of our nature.

Heart
09-10-2015, 05:51 PM
I am not either,except for what i have learnt through observation of my own life,its experiences and the participants of those experiences if mine (forced by life itself).

However something doesnt become non existant just because one doesnt understand how it works. There are millions of examples to prove this.

Observing own life with all sincerety, honesty and humility in itself will prive the existance of something which would be fit into the already existing karma label. But if ne doesnt want to, questioning if its real or not serves no real purpose. However, its not the law that constNtly chNges, its how it applies to each, as each has multiples choices to chose from with regards to how this law applies to each....if all humans followed a single line of thinking and behaviour and of processing info, the law woukd be simply applied in the exact same manner to each of us. But of course, we are the great humans, specialists in messing up everything we lay our sight or even thought on to acheive ends which are illusory apparently, and not really part of our nature.

I am in total agreement on this, I bow down to that which I may never truly understand

lifensoul
09-10-2015, 05:53 PM
we are subjected to all kinds of actions and reactions in our suroundings and situations, and when you stop responding to them you are no longer in cause and effect, (presence of mind) ie you are acting in this present moment by having an inner stillness movment counteracted by stillness, its rather beautifull actually

As an immediate response to a trigger aimed at making you throw yourself into reacting negatively, yes, and until you figure out a way to neutralise the cause and effect by something useful and positive, i guess the book will remain imbalanced.

But in the longer term, that would be more of escapism wouldnt it, which as i understand, isnt possible either. But yes, a choice indeed (the toughest choice in real life when one has to be, for one reason or other, part of the general society in even the remotest form), in that one negates the effect gradually over time, by and while making sure one doesnt add to the either cause or effect. And perhaps, even the only choice for the one who has learnt all lessons, fulfilled all their responsibilities as a human in this world and has no karma to balance.

Heart
09-10-2015, 07:27 PM
an ocean of thoughts...

A still mind no longer creates its own ripples its depth of understanding is deeper, one can gracefully submerge into knowing everything and not be overwhelmed by every day ocurencies

Lucyan28
09-10-2015, 08:24 PM
I like the grumpy cat :D and sometimes cranky people are just adorable !

Well, now seriously... let me think about the fear and anger... I don't know you; but those emotions have taught me a lot of things and also helped me to stay alive until today; I'm thankful for them.

Nevertheless I have felt another emotions like courage, will, love and happiness, and I prefer to learn from them now =)

naturesflow
09-10-2015, 09:13 PM
You are not seeing beyond the form of man, look beyond the phisical action and you will see that all I am responding to is negative energy from that of another source that could not find balance within itself, if any death was born of my actions it would be the cracking of his egg shell of an ego, I see his life as energy as is mine, so know without a shadow of a doubt that his life would never end in that moment, my actions were equally justified in seeing that both he and I have learnt something from this, how do I know this, he told me that he would never use his martial arts in vain again. I have never had to use anger since that time to overcome negativity, a cup in my mind will sufice thank you


Could anyone know without a shadow of doubt that his life wouldn't end. I will just add this. Would you have known that even as you kicked, that this man might hit his head so hard that he might die?Of course you may have set this experience up subconsciously where of course the experience played out as it did and ended as it did. It is easy to say after the fact of physical intervention that you know this man would not die. What if he had an underlying condition that was aggravated by this fall? :)

Ah so you learned from through his disclosure of saying he wouldn't repeat. But where is the learning through your own use of physical means? I will add that in the moment, I don't hold beliefs that physical means is wrong or right, but I see that if you are open through this experience in regards to not having to use physical force in the future, you also would have learned through the whole experience, in you for you and end this creation as a whole. The body is the vessel that carries us through life it is important so in my view I do not disregard it in the whole awareness of compassion and love, perhaps that is where we differ, you see eye for an eye is ok in belief, so that holds you down to using this as a means always in that belief. But the question is can we move beyond this idea that it is necessary for ourselves to be living in this way, or does the world need beings to end the fight, for the fight to end externally coming at you. Potential of change in every situation to change the whole situation that is one with you? Or do you remain the fighter in this way always? The man may fear you in the future and reconcile his ways with you, but has he truly reconciled himself in this way of consequences in the playing field of life?

[Exodus 21:23~25] And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Who wrote this, do you believe in this? Exodus 21:23~25 and yes, we are all equal in our nature. so it makes sence to act like it


Oh dear.
Dispelling negative energy works in so many ways, not just one way.[/B] Agreed

TO go beyond the physical would you be engaging your physical body this way?allways

OH dear.

Wouldn't the experience of compassion and love bring you compassion and love experiences without physical force? compassion and love is anger and fear not recognised, you cant have one without the other both are equally important to instil a balance, that balance is a natural judgement in any given moment.

So you were in love and compassion in this moment and he was in fear and anger? Or were you both in the same whole state that is in us all regardless of what is playing out on the surface? You seem to be a prophet that can predict life and death in your choices so you would know? :)


the only conditioning is that of an ego trying to be negative and an equally negative response to stop it dead in its tracks, look at it like a balancing act in this case two negatives made a positive


I can see all this, this is not where my questioning lays. I am well aware of instant momentary reactions and how in the moment no one can know what will transpire and what one has to do, we cannot say what one needs to be doing at any moment to defend and protect themselves about the attraction of outer forces that come into them and how they manage them. That incoming reflection that came at you with force in that way, was a reflection for you as it were and you take what you need from it, do what you need, but hey I like using my curious and inquisitive side to ask questions where I see hiccups that hiccup in my face to ask... I like interacting with one million questions..hehehe I would just add, You are the sum of your whole attractions, are you not? So in this way there is only you in the whole experience that created and ended it the way you did, that is how I reflect. He being you, you being he, so why do you feel you attracted this? For no reason? Other than to knock some sense into him lol..


lol fair enough.[/

AT least you can laugh and I love your spirit to keep ongoing with my questioning..Makes me smile..:smile:

Heart
10-10-2015, 12:19 AM
assumtion no 1
who said I kicked him!! I said he kicked me in a deliberate and brutal manor, he is the agressor Im the respondant, he acted out his martial arts training in an unprovoked attack on my person to such a point he nearly broke my leg I am well within my rights to protect my very exsistance in this case by usung the most potent force available to me at that time... anger, how do you know I too would not have died from the bloodclot to my leg, what if he never stoped there and continued to use the same force on my head, should I have given him a second chance to take another swing at me using the same force capable of such an injury to a large bone in the body, no, you defend yourself by taking the threat away from you there and then, attack is the best form of defence, I used reasonable force to stop further injury to my being, not to mention he could have pulled a knife out or a gun and finished the job there and then, you do not take any of that into account when you read my posts on this, you take no chances when you are dealing with someone you do not know,

assumption no 2
who said I have continued to use phisical force from that point onwards, not one word have I said to declare that I have a history of such behavour,

assumption no 3
That I have to learn from this and in some form, what lesson do you feel I need to learn from something I allready know about and experienced, after all I was there, were you?

assumption no 4
who said I was a fighter? i used no such word to describe such atribute to my being

assumption no 5
How do you know if the man will or will not fear me have you spoken to him and he has change his mind about the situation?

thats a lot of assumptions going on here lol

he knew he did wrong he used his training against the rule of using martial arts as a form of self defence for his own agenda, oh... he knew very well what and why I responded the way I did, I can assure you he does not fear me

Wouldn't the experience of compassion and love bring you compassion and love experiences without physical force? compassion and love is anger and fear not recognised, you cant have one without the other both are equally important to instil a balance, that balance is a natural judgement in any given moment.

How are you to know compassion and love in the first place if you did not know its oposing force or maybe you would rather live in complete bliss far away in never never land away from anger, grin


So you were in love and compassion in this moment and he was in fear and anger?

I recognised his true element the moment i got kicked by him he was there to cause pain and suffering to others according to his actions towards me, thats blatent enough to see and feel, I was compasionate just enough to see this by using reasonable force to stop him hurting me and stop any further attacks, i must ask you,, is it reasonable force to nearly break a leg? do you know the force needed to cause it to bloodclot? Im not looking for sympathy here, i really dont care for understanding, but you did yet again assume all this over a cup in my head and im trying to use an example, seen as a good one or not to describe that there is no such anger and negative energy doing what is otherwise a very simple thing to do

naturesflow
10-10-2015, 03:31 AM
assumtion no 1
who said I kicked him!! I said he kicked me in a deliberate and brutal manor, he is the agressor Im the respondant, he acted out his martial arts training in an unprovoked attack on my person to such a point he nearly broke my leg I am well within my rights to protect my very exsistance in this case by usung the most potent force available to me at that time... anger, how do you know I too would not have died from the bloodclot to my leg, what if he never stoped there and continued to use the same force on my head, should I have given him a second chance to take another swing at me using the same force capable of such an injury to a large bone in the body, no, you defend yourself by taking the threat away from you there and then, attack is the best form of defence, I used reasonable force to stop further injury to my being, not to mention he could have pulled a knife out or a gun and finished the job there and then, you do not take any of that into account when you read my posts on this, you take no chances when you are dealing with someone you do not know,

assumption no 2
who said I have continued to use phisical force from that point onwards, not one word have I said to declare that I have a history of such behavour,

assumption no 3
That I have to learn from this and in some form, what lesson do you feel I need to learn from something I allready know about and experienced, after all I was there, were you?

assumption no 4
who said I was a fighter? i used no such word to describe such atribute to my being

assumption no 5
How do you know if the man will or will not fear me have you spoken to him and he has change his mind about the situation?

thats a lot of assumptions going on here lol

he knew he did wrong he used his training against the rule of using martial arts as a form of self defence for his own agenda, oh... he knew very well what and why I responded the way I did, I can assure you he does not fear me

Wouldn't the experience of compassion and love bring you compassion and love experiences without physical force? compassion and love is anger and fear not recognised, you cant have one without the other both are equally important to instil a balance, that balance is a natural judgement in any given moment.

How are you to know compassion and love in the first place if you did not know its oposing force or maybe you would rather live in complete bliss far away in never never land away from anger, grin


So you were in love and compassion in this moment and he was in fear and anger?

I recognised his true element the moment i got kicked by him he was there to cause pain and suffering to others according to his actions towards me, thats blatent enough to see and feel, I was compasionate just enough to see this by using reasonable force to stop him hurting me and stop any further attacks, i must ask you,, is it reasonable force to nearly break a leg? do you know the force needed to cause it to bloodclot? Im not looking for sympathy here, i really dont care for understanding, but you did yet again assume all this over a cup in my head and im trying to use an example, seen as a good one or not to describe that there is no such anger and negative energy doing what is otherwise a very simple thing to do


I have no reason to make any of your sharing into an assumption.
Thankyou for sharing heart.

Gem
10-10-2015, 10:41 AM
and all we can do is but laugh when we can see the ego/mind try to play and trick us
Most often, laughter is not the case, and this thread probably reflects that well. For example, considering anger to be a 'natural emotion' is akin to being blind to angers functioning - yet I don't speak of quashing the thing; only of being conscious of its arising - because anger by its nature has the tendency to 'rule the roost' and then quickly become a habitual behaviour that inevitably leads to deep regrets. I'm not a theorist on this kind of psychological trait and I speak from living in anger. This why I now talk about the response to ones own body, because emotion is primarily bodily sensation - some call it the emotional body or even the pain body, but this language is ambiguous - it just means emotion is entailed within bodily sensation, though its beginnings may be quite subtle and go unnoticed.

Ivy
10-10-2015, 11:04 AM
Most often, laughter is not the case, and this thread probably reflects that well. For example, considering anger to be a 'natural emotion' is akin to being blind to angers functioning - yet I don't speak of quashing the thing; only of being conscious of its arising - because anger by its nature has the tendency to 'rule the roost' and then quickly become a habitual behaviour that inevitably leads to deep regrets. I'm not a theorist on this kind of psychological trait and I speak from living in anger. This why I now talk about the response to ones own body, because emotion is primarily bodily sensation - some call it the emotional body or even the pain body, but this language is ambiguous - it just means emotion is entailed within bodily sensation, though its beginnings may be quite subtle and go unnoticed.

The stress response has a lot to do with feelings of anger or fear as those are the responses to perceived threat. But different people have diferent chemical responses to perceived threat. When one chemical dominates, then a person will go into 'fight' mode as a survival technique, but another person faced with the same perceived threat may go into flight mode, and another may freeze and another may fawn.

What I'm trying to point out, is that the stress response can have a tendency to 'rule the roost' and for you that may have been anger, whereas another may be unaffected by anger, but instead be affected by flight or freeze responses.

Gem
10-10-2015, 11:45 AM
The stress response has a lot to do with feelings of anger or fear as those are the responses to perceived threat. But different people have diferent chemical responses to perceived threat. When one chemical dominates, then a person will go into 'fight' mode as a survival technique, but another person faced with the same perceived threat may go into flight mode, and another may freeze and another may fawn.

What I'm trying to point out, is that the stress response can have a tendency to 'rule the roost' and for you that may have been anger, whereas another may be unaffected by anger, but instead be affected by flight or freeze responses.
I think in essence the mind is responsive. In some situations I was impelled to flight or fight, I never experienced a freeze. These weren't the same as anger. They were heightened in a vital way and perception of motion were as if in slow-mo. The flight feels as though ones pace is slow, but actually the running is so fast, and the fight slows everything down which makes avoiding hits much easier. It's extreme, and afterward I would wonder how I got out intact. Anger is a different kettle of fish and the mind isn't heightened, it's blurred, obsessive and flying out of control. From these experiences I learned something which I articulate by saying that there are two kinds of response: reflex and reaction. These are very different in nature primarily because reflex is within the immediacy of events and involves no self referential thought wheres reaction is a highly agitated mental state which is fundamentally egoic. Anger falls in the latter category. As yet, I haven't experienced fear in dangerous situations, but I have become terrified in meditation practices. This occurred in conjunction with the experience losing notion of self. The death of the self. That's why I now consider fear to be, fundamentally, the fear of death.

Ivy
10-10-2015, 01:32 PM
I think in essence the mind is responsive. In some situations I was impelled to flight or fight, I never experienced a freeze. These weren't the same as anger. They were heightened in a vital way and perception of motion were as if in slow-mo. The flight feels as though ones pace is slow, but actually the running is so fast, and the fight slows everything down which makes avoiding hits much easier. It's extreme, and afterward I would wonder how I got out intact. Anger is a different kettle of fish and the mind isn't heightened, it's blurred, obsessive and flying out of control. From these experiences I learned something which I articulate by saying that there are two kinds of response: reflex and reaction. These are very different in nature primarily because reflex is within the immediacy of events and involves no self referential thought wheres reaction is a highly agitated mental state which is fundamentally egoic. Anger falls in the latter category. As yet, I haven't experienced fear in dangerous situations, but I have become terrified in meditation practices. This occurred in conjunction with the experience losing notion of self. The death of the self. That's why I now consider fear to be, fundamentally, the fear of death.

I've never experienced that feeling of anger as you describe it Gem. But I would say that I have experienced anger, just in a different way. I do feel that mine is something of a delayed energy from the stress response = my stress response tends to be freeze foremost, flight next... but after a stressful situation, I feel a whoosh of energy released, and it's very powerful and short, not connected to longer obsessive thinking. It's really interesting to hear what others have to say about experience.

Heart
10-10-2015, 10:11 PM
Most often, laughter is not the case, and this thread probably reflects that well. For example, considering anger to be a 'natural emotion' is akin to being blind to angers functioning - yet I don't speak of quashing the thing; only of being conscious of its arising - because anger by its nature has the tendency to 'rule the roost' and then quickly become a habitual behaviour that inevitably leads to deep regrets. I'm not a theorist on this kind of psychological trait and I speak from living in anger. This why I now talk about the response to ones own body, because emotion is primarily bodily sensation - some call it the emotional body or even the pain body, but this language is ambiguous - it just means emotion is entailed within bodily sensation, though its beginnings may be quite subtle and go unnoticed.

the context upon which the post you are quoting from was refering to was when you notice an ego/mind playing its tricks and games on us, its rather amusing to watch. other than that you are perfectly correct

Gem
11-10-2015, 02:22 AM
I've never experienced that feeling of anger as you describe it Gem. But I would say that I have experienced anger, just in a different way. I do feel that mine is something of a delayed energy from the stress response = my stress response tends to be freeze foremost, flight next... but after a stressful situation, I feel a whoosh of energy released, and it's very powerful and short, not connected to longer obsessive thinking. It's really interesting to hear what others have to say about experience.

What I'm describing about anger is something most everyone experiences to some degree from being a bit peeved up till outright rage. I dare say everyone knows what anger is like. Any child can make an 'angry face' so I assume every person associates with that emotion. I think only people who have struggled with it understand, and the spiritual/psychology jargon is as much a mask as it is ambiguous. It's like a clinical or theoretical expose. All of this is essentially meaningless, and I suspect that is so because people are loath to expose that within themselves. I'm speaking from the real life experience of temper problems and trying to say things in a clear fashion to explain that these highly reactive behaviours are not the 'natural order', but learned, practiced and habitualised. I don't think people should fool themselves by writing it off as normal inevitable human function, although it is understandable given persons life circumstances, and can be a necessary disposition in certain environments.

Firstly, take this obscure term 'ego'. They say there's an ego to blame for misery, there's an ego to be rid of etc. A lot of stories. I don't know what it means. It seems to be a symbolic reference that is acceded in spiritual community. Everyone agrees its a thing. I say it's merely a convention.

What I'm talking about isn't wisdom or knowledge. It's mental reactivity which everyone directly experiences. It's about becoming conscious of the subtle sensations which are the very early onset of anger, which enables a person to catch it out and retain a stable disposition toward that sense rather than becoming mentally reactive/angry. This works toward breaking the habitual predisposition. Concurrently, becoming conscious to the subtle beginings of it is directly akin to becoming aware its emotional roots.

Gem
11-10-2015, 02:45 AM
the context upon which the post you are quoting from was refering to was when you notice an ego/mind playing its tricks and games on us, its rather amusing to watch. other than that you are perfectly correct
I'm not sure if it's amusing. I guess it represents an ugly face of some kind. It's as though someone pretends to be you and you believe them to be you. But noticing doesn't involve anything other that what is being experienced and when you notice your thoughts you have to present to notice them. Often the mind is just running away, thinking of a past event or imagining future conjectures and very little attention is given to what is actually occurring momentarily. When the attention is given to momentary occurance, there is much less thought, so I'm of the persuasion, screw the thoughts, and notice what actually occurs spontaneously. This again returns to the senses, because the momentary experience is sensational. What you call 'ego' I claim is nothing other than mental reactivity to senses. To some degree, these reactions occur unconsciously to sensation so subtle that person is unaware of them. That's where a meditation practice comes in handy to persistently train the mind to return to the present.

yeshee camar
20-11-2015, 12:35 PM
i want to add this pitcher. i want to add this pitcher.
i wanna fear be of honor and a rejoys. for its all merchandise'd but.
i want a anger co stams humor chiller strongs. for we're all made of thick and bone and a love.








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