True Self?

[shepherd]

True self?

It seems some members are chasing a goal to be their true selves through various practises. You can see this on various threads where some members even gloat over others with surperiority as their meditational or spiritual ways have led them to now being their true self.

Which is what exactly?

Is this another ploy to get people to not accept who they are right now, this very moment as being true regardless of judgement from themselves and others through conditioning of what is supposed to be spiritual.

Joy, happiness, zen like behaviour? Is this really the true self or is just who you are right now which is ever evolving...the true self you had all along?

There is a danger too which comes with trying to be this spiritual zen like person and that is it has to be maintained and as we know, life isnt like that as it comes with dips, bumps and highs and lows and suppressing how you feel in favour of being spiritual has consequences which just creates anxiety and stress.

Is chasing the idea of a "true self" fruitless? Maybe not as the intention to be better in someway helps us evolve but there has to be a level of acceptance with who you are right now doesnt there?

Would love your thoughts on this elusive true self :wink:

[Enya]

I think... the true self is like a polished diamond... every facet is an aspect of the whole self and every blemish a truth about the self... it's not until you cut, polish and reveal the true diamond that you ever find the true self. Along the way, you have to accept and live with every aspect you discover... or you'll never know the whole self.

[hybrid]

if there is a true self, there is a false self.
then, a false self will be the self that take issues with life
and can't accept reality as it is. it thrives in beliefs.
the false self is the self that is undergoing an existential crisis.
the false self represents the cause of human problems both personal and collectively.

then the true self will be the the opposite of the what the false self represents.


,

[Kapitan_Prien]

I don't know Shepherd...I've wondered the same. Seems to be like the 'Enlightenment' term.

At the end of the day, for me at least, I don't know...and I don't care. My focus isn't on pondering over these terms or attaining them...my focus is trying to help my body heal and make my way through the world since having had a soul exchange.

[shepherd]

if there is a true self, there is a false self.
what if its just a "self" and the labels we give it are just judgements based on what we think is right or wrong?

[hybrid]

what if its just a "self" and the labels we give it are just judgements based on what we think is right or wrong?
how does it work? when a man is beating his wife, we will say leave him alone he is just in his own self.

.

.

[Chrysaetos]

how does it work? when a man is beating his wife, we will say leave him alone he is just in his own self.
. He is still the same man but he was in an aggressive mode.
Our vices are still a part of us, we can change them but I think externalizations don't deal really with the issue.

In the end all those inner demons and angels are just false characters we have created.
It's not that we don't have good and bad parts, the problems lies in thinking that's it's some force outside of you.
Some of these demons and angels could have evolved in bigger ones/concepts?

[hybrid]

He is still the same man but he was in an aggressive mode.
Our vices are still a part of us, we can change them but I think externalizations don't deal really with the issue.

of course. but shepherd wanted to drop the labels. i am asking how, when you say we can change, is the improved version of our self make the the wife beating ma the same man or he can acquire a new title, say a loving responsible man?

In the end all those inner demons and angels are just false characters we have created.
It's not that we don't have good and bad parts, the problems lies in thinking that's it's some force outside of you.
Some of these demons and angels could have evolved in bigger ones/concepts?

in the end these things define the self. the self is the reflection of all these going ons. it's not that there is a self that all these things is happening to it.

iow, we can't avoid labeling the self because it has a qualitative aspect. the quality of it as an activity.

.

[John32241]

True self?

It seems some members are chasing a goal to be their true selves through various practises. You can see this on various threads where some members even gloat over others with surperiority as their meditational or spiritual ways have led them to now being their true self.

Which is what exactly?

Is this another ploy to get people to not accept who they are right now, this very moment as being true regardless of judgement from themselves and others through conditioning of what is supposed to be spiritual.

Joy, happiness, zen like behaviour? Is this really the true self or is just who you are right now which is ever evolving...the true self you had all along?

There is a danger too which comes with trying to be this spiritual zen like person and that is it has to be maintained and as we know, life isnt like that as it comes with dips, bumps and highs and lows and suppressing how you feel in favour of being spiritual has consequences which just creates anxiety and stress.

Is chasing the idea of a "true self" fruitless? Maybe not as the intention to be better in someway helps us evolve but there has to be a level of acceptance with who you are right now doesnt there?

Would love your thoughts on this elusive true self :wink:

It is my understanding that the true self is All That You Are. The good, the bad, and the ugly. To embrace all that you are is to experience self love.

Other than the conscious self, there is the higher self and the subconscious self. These three aspects of us are equal to each other with very distinct sets of responsibilities.

Each human person is a unique expression of All That Is. As a result, each person is equally knowing and empowered at the higher self level of awareness. The conscious and the subconscious reflect the particular service we offer to the collective community. By design, the conscious awareness is never very well informed about anything. Those that can appreciate this are both humble and confident at the same time. That is because they have experience the trinity effect sometimes called co-creation. This experience is self love both given and received.

I hope this over simplified description states my perceptions accurately.

John

[Ciqala]

True self?

It seems some members are chasing a goal to be their true selves through various practises. You can see this on various threads where some members even gloat over others with surperiority as their meditational or spiritual ways have led them to now being their true self.

Which is what exactly?

Is this another ploy to get people to not accept who they are right now, this very moment as being true regardless of judgement from themselves and others through conditioning of what is supposed to be spiritual.

Joy, happiness, zen like behaviour? Is this really the true self or is just who you are right now which is ever evolving...the true self you had all along?

There is a danger too which comes with trying to be this spiritual zen like person and that is it has to be maintained and as we know, life isnt like that as it comes with dips, bumps and highs and lows and suppressing how you feel in favour of being spiritual has consequences which just creates anxiety and stress.

Is chasing the idea of a "true self" fruitless? Maybe not as the intention to be better in someway helps us evolve but there has to be a level of acceptance with who you are right now doesnt there?

Would love your thoughts on this elusive true self :wink:

In a psychological aspect, and trust me, I have overcome many psychological disorders and mental illnesses, it is not about suppressing your feelings, it is about become self aware of the thoughts, and the obstacles, highs and lows, that come up in life, it is self awareness that leads to positivity, and silence eventually, to the point obstacles in life no longer hinder you. We always have a choice, no matter what brain disorder anyone has, and it is always our fault on how we react. Obviously, suppressing does lead to an eventually exploding bomb inside of ourselves. That’s not how this works.
But self awareness, leads us to be able to first view these situations and negative thoughts, without adding on any unnecessary anxieties that will build up the situation, next step is to make the firm decision to deal with, and let go. This process, over time, becomes very quick, whereas happens in a few seconds of dealing with, and moving on. Eventually self awareness leads to the amazing ability to not have anything in life bother you. It’s as simple as that. It’s a choice. If something bothers you, change it. Obstacles are not meant to be bothering, they are meant to help us grow.
At first it can take a person a very long time. Naturally I was born with Borderline Personality Disorder, extreme black and white thinking, inability to deal with the smallest of obstacles in my path, horrendous thinking patterns, and then one day I realized, I had the control to not let one situation **** me up for numerous of days afterwards. It starts with self awareness. Then it leads to coping skills of how to deal with and move on.
You see, no one can find their higher self if they just jump into it, without first learning self awareness, and letting go. And eventually quieting the mind. The higher self, is a true place in the mind, or in the heart, in the center of us, if you call it that, where we can be thoroughly honest with ourselves, and we find real truth. It is a beautiful and relaxing place in ourselves where one can eventually find after much hard work, and in that place is vast love, peacefulness and the higher self, which is the true us that is connected to the universe.
Battling life obstacles and negative things is exhausting, and very unhealthy, people need to learn to let go, and move on, and coping skills to deal with things. You can’t access higher self, until you know how to do this.
There is a huge difference between what we want, and what we need. When we meditate and access the higher self, it simply means we are on key to what we need for our highest good, and our intuition, and this can heal mental illness and everything, when we can finally access the power within ourselves to heal ourselves. The power of the mind is greatly disregarded, even psychologists know that. It is coming to an understanding of our inner truth. Spiritually, you can even go as far to say, once accessing this understanding, you can connect to the divine source, you can begin to live your life on your true path, that humans usually live with their own selfish wants and needs, and completing their own desires only leads them down the wrong path into unhealthy things, but when accessing the higher self, you only go forward, and communicate to Spirit, and that all people have Spirit within themselves, it’s just finding it, is the hard part.

[Ivy]

The ideas of true self aren't something that grabs me...but what I notice here shepard is your ugness...the ugness of tired frustration perhaps. And honestly, if you are feeling that way, then it may be time for you to take a break and spend a little time working with yourself and to recouperate your energy and desire for change.

[Chrysaetos]

when you say we can change, is the improved version of our self make the the wife beating ma the same man or he can acquire a new title, say a loving responsible man? He's the same man but his title can change.
His vices and virtues are more like verbs instead of nouns.

Yes the qualities are part of the self and define the self in a way. But still these are all illusions as they can change. The qualities can't exist by themselves.

One could say the self is a thing or an entity that undergoes various state changes,
or these various state changes are in fact the self.

[shepherd]

The ideas of true self aren't something that grabs me...but what I notice here shepard is your ugness...the ugness of tired frustration perhaps. And honestly, if you are feeling that way, then it may be time for you to take a break and spend a little time working with yourself and to recouperate your energy and desire for change.

I would sit back and really have a good think Heather as to why you posted your assumptions about me on this thread. it just makes for ugly reading and I have no idea what your agenda is, so please respect this thread and keep it out, if you wish to be personal then please use the pvt message system. Thank you.






(http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=105122)

[shepherd]

One could say the self is a thing or an entity that undergoes various state changes,
or these various state changes are in fact the self.
I have to agree with this so far.

I'm just not convinced there is an actual true self. The idea of a true self just promotes an idea which may not actually be able to be reached as when would someone know when? It just seems to promote non acceptance of who we are right now. (though the true self is always our self)

[Ivy]

I would sit back and really have a good think Heather as to why you posted your assumptions about me on this thread. it just makes for ugly reading and I have no idea what your agenda is, so please respect this thread and keep it out, if you wish to be personal then please use the pvt message system. Thank you.






(http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewreply%26amp%3Bp%3D 105122)

Sorry that youve taken it poorly, it was given with the best will in the world xx

[hybrid]

He's the same man but his title can change.
His vices and virtues are more like verbs instead of nouns.

Yes the qualities are part of the self and define the self in a way. But still these are all illusions as they can change. The qualities can't exist by themselves.

One could say the self is a thing or an entity that undergoes various state changes,
or these various state changes are in fact the self.
you depicted a self that is dynamic. in lieu of this, can we be just ourselves without having to resort to label as true, false, higher, lower, god , ego, good, evil selves as shepherd suggested?

.

[shepherd]

Sorry that youve taken it poorly, it was given with the best will in the world xx

It's not about being taken poorly Heather, its your perceptions of me which are personal and don't really need to be on this thread. I don't know if this is something you do to others but it just seems out of place and uncalled for regardless of intentions. Hence why I say sit back and have a real good think.

[shepherd]

you depicted a self that is dynamic. in lieu of this, can we be just ourselves without having to resort to label as true, false, higher, lower, god , ego, good, evil selves as shepherd suggested?

Did I suggest that? Not sure I did but its a brilliant question Hybrid, can we?

[hybrid]

I have to agree with this so far.

I'm just not convinced there is an actual true self. The idea of a true self just promotes an idea which may not actually be able to be reached as when would someone know when? It just seems to promote non acceptance of who we are right now. (though the true self is always our self)
of course there is no actual true self, these are maps or models of consciousness or of human psyche. if what is your concern as a therapist who believes that self acceptance is the key to healing the self, then such concepts as true/false selves impedes the healing process rather that help, yes you may be right.

these ideas are rather philosophical in nature and wouldn't probably useful in a clinical scenario.

.

[hybrid]

Did I suggest that? Not sure I did but its a brilliant question Hybrid, can we?

this is what you said ....

what if its just a "self" and the labels we give it are just judgements based on what we think is right or wrong

[shepherd]

of course there is no actual true self, these are maps or models of consciousness or of human psyche. if what is your concern as a therapist who believes that self acceptance is the key to healing the self, then such concepts as true/false selves impedes the healing process rather that help, yes you may be right.

these ideas are rather philosophical in nature and wouldn't probably useful in a clinical scenario.
I wouldnt use them in a clinical way but am wondering what the benefit is in the spiritual community?


his is what you said ....

Quote:
what if its just a "self" and the labels we give it are just judgements based on what we think is right or wrong

Ah, I can see what you were referring to. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Ivy]

Sorry Shepard...but you chose to start a thread with some quite derogotory perceptions of others. When I have spoken that way it has been because I am tired and frustrated (feeling ug)....the advice I gave was the advice and the compassion that I would give myself in those circumstances.

[hybrid]

I wouldnt use them in a clinical way but am wondering what the benefit is in the spiritual community?.
spiritual community is teeming with spiritual seekers and travelers.
an accurate map is always handy in endeavors/adventures like these.

.

[shepherd]

Sorry Shepard...but you chose to start a thread with some quite derogotory perceptions of others

Heather, I pointed out some members gloated over others in some threads and I noticed it. Its not derogatory to point out the behaviour of others, it would be derogatory to name or hint who they were. So again, sit back and think, what is this really about and please respect the thread.

[shepherd]

spiritual community is teeming with spiritual seekers and travellers. an accurate map is always handy in adventures like this.
That reminds me of The Alchemyst by Paulo Coelho.

Who provides the map and why do they think they have the answers to provide the details of the journey spiritualists should take?

[Neville]

I have to admit, that the persuit of ones true self carries implications that the fella I see in the mirror is a conditioned facade. Be that as it may, the fella in the mirror Is me.

[Ivy]

Sorry shepard, but theres no more than what has been given already. Ive shared in tghe spirit of being honest and open. If you can use it, good for you...if you cant, thats fine. But if you want to make an issue of it, that is your decision..not mine..go for it.

[shepherd]

I have to admit, that the persuit of ones true self carries implications that the fella I see in the mirror is a conditioned facade. Be that as it may, the fella in the mirror Is me.
That should be a quote in one of those books of wisdom. It really does make you think. If you wrote that Neville, can I borrow it and credit to you?



Ps Heather, enough with the manipulation already.

[hybrid]

That reminds me of The Alchemyst by Paulo Coelho.

no idea.

Who provides the map and why do they think they have the answers to provide the details of the journey spiritualists should take?
it helps them along the way and they want to share it.

as an aside, it doesn't sound derogatory when you pointed out that some behaviors of flaunting their profound experiences were happening here. and i agree to the extent that at least it is brought to the light of our awareness if not totally addressed.

but imo, most of the time, the message was quite okay. but sometimes the messengers are not, hehe

.

[Chrysaetos]

you depicted a self that is dynamic. in lieu of this, can we be just ourselves without having to resort to label as true, false, higher, lower, god , ego, good, evil selves as shepherd suggested? What does it mean to be ourselves?

If the self is dynamic and not an actual entity, is there a time when we are ''ourselves''?

Some say when you're still you are yourself.
Others feel 'alive' and themselves when they are active.

I guess it's a matter of preference, and claiming that a particular state is the true self gives us no explanation why the non-self state exists.

[hybrid]

I have to admit, that the persuit of ones true self carries implications that the fella I see in the mirror is a conditioned facade. Be that as it may, the fella in the mirror Is me.

technically speaking, the face in the mirror is your image not you.

.

[hybrid]

What does it mean to be ourselves?

If the self is dynamic and not an actual entity, is there a time when we are ''ourselves''?

Some say when you're still you are yourself.
Others feel 'alive' and themselves when they are active.

I guess it's a matter of preference, and claiming that a particular state is the true self gives us no explanation why the non-self state exists.

hahaha now you are talking about non self. yes these are preferences, i have mu ideas of self and you have yours, but i don't think that the OP wishes to discuss the merits of our concepts of self, on the contrary it is this kind of discussions that he questions the usefulness in spiritual community. if i get him right .

.

[Neville]

behind the eyes hybrid, behind the eyes:smile: Whatever is going on within you,

[Chrysaetos]

technically speaking, the face in the mirror is your image not you. .Maybe it's your copy who looks at you from a different world. Try and enter the portal, maybe your heads collide.:D
but i don't think that the OP wishes to discuss the merits of our concepts of self, on the contrary it is this kind of discussions that he questions the usefulness in spiritual community. if i get him right . Hmm okay.. Shepherd asked if it's useful to chase the true self. I would say no, because 'true self' and 'false self' imply entities.
I see the 'self' as more dynamic, more as a verb and not a noun. Did the noun made the verb or did the verb made the noun?

So to answer Shepherd's question - I think it's pointless chasing true selves, as it creates inner entities and inner struggles between the things you like and the things you dislike, which become aspects of these selves. Instead of having all these battles in the head, we should recognize all of it as elements of a dynamic process.

[shepherd]

That reminds me of The Alchemyst by Paulo Coelho.

no idea.

its a famous story about a young boy who goes on a journey when all along what he was looking for was right at the start.

Who provides the map and why do they think they have the answers to provide the details of the journey spiritualists should take?

it helps them along the way and they want to share it.

Hmm, maybe but I have explored lots of maps on the journey which many professed to be true but in the end they were true to them but not to me.

I had to learn to create my own map and trust my own inner direction.

as an aside, it doesn't sound derogatory when you pointed out that some behaviors of flaunting their profound experiences were happening here. and i agree to the extent that at least it is brought to the light of our awareness if not totally addressed.


I agree, I wasnt being rude or finger pointing, I made an observation due to the effects of what people say is their true selves.

[shaya48]

:smile: Hi about true selves.

This is only my opinion from my personal experiences()) it will probably be shot down in flames) (whatever) but for me finding my true self has been a blessing for me as i was living to being whoever i needed to be for others so i would be loved, excepted and wanted by anyone who was kind to me, before i understood anything of life and myself and how my experiences showed me in many ways that i wasnt happy within myself living to a false happiness or to the expectations of others and pleasing others who didnt respect me and abused me.

We are all born with the truths and untruths of ourselves, before we come here, but as individuals we all have our little suitcase of learning lessons with us when we arrive here on the earth plane, i know myself it can very difficult to find your way,you only have so much knowledge to guide you at any given time, i was stumbling through life, trying to do the best i could for myself, but always finding myself in a big mess in one way or the other,.

I didnt know what i know now, i knew nothing of intuition, emotional stuff, i thought if you love someone you receive love back, and it didnt work out that way, i was so lost in myself and my life, i didnt know much of anything and it took me a very long time to learn from some very painfull experiences.

Those experiences gave me a good look at myself and why i was not living to the truth of myself, by excepting any ole thing when i was going in blind along in life i was living to my lower self, the self that will be glad to please others, live to a false happiness pleasing others , loving another with no love given in return, putting up with physical and mental abuse,and basicly excepting crumbs on the floor instead of a full meal at the table.


After many experiences, and emotional hurts and disappipointments, slowly i could see what i was doing wrong, where i was going wrong, my faults, my strengths, my weaknesses all started to reveal themselves to me, which gave me some new knowledge to be able to deal with things in a better way for myself, all the time getting closer to being able and allowing myself to be more aware of my true identity and kind of person i want to be for myself so i could believe there was something better waiting for me in life other than what i seemed to be going through all the time, I started to trust my gut feelings with alot of things, and that proved to be a good thing to do for my self, as i used to go against it many times and end up with a new lesson to learn, and that was a good thing too, but trusting my gut when i chose and felt strongly to do also stopped myself from repeating an uneccesary lesson over and over which also led me to a new experience so either way its all good with our gut feelings which ever we choose .

All i can say is life is our greatest teacher if we let it, no one is perfect here, we are all here doing the best we can with the knowledge we have at any given time we learn more wisdom (if we choose) as we go along, we dont always know who we really are until we have the necessary lessons of life that we come here to learn in each life time we will have on the earth plane.

We dont always find the truth of anythings straight away, let alone of ourselves life will come in at any time and throw something new at us, to show us another truth, another untruth, another way, a different way, a more loving or compassionate way of treating another or dealing with someone or a situation , and allowing ourselves to be treated in a more respectful loving way,and probably for most of us we can say i didnt know i could allow myself to live better, do things in a different way, say no to abuse of any kind ,allow myself to live my life the way i want , reject what isnt right for us, let go of what isnt serving us or our higher good,until we learned many valuable lesson about ourselves our higher selves , our lower selves, and the real us.

I dont pretend to be anything i am not, i have my faults and good points like everyone else, my knowledge and wisdom which i have earned, to me is a precious gift, it doesnt make me better than anyone else, my spiritual path doesnt make me more enlightened than anyone else, i am so glad at my time of life, to be able to know who i really am,and give thanks to that my true self, not the blind person who was stumbling through life, without a clue of where i would end up.

I think i have been cursed:confused: and blessed at the same time lol:hug3: by either way i made it through, alot wiser and still have time left to live to how i was meant to live my life to the person i truly know now as the real me and love.

Love and Light Shaya.:hug3:

[Ciqala]

technically speaking, the face in the mirror is your image not you.

.

hah, i love that quote, it is true.

[Xan]

What if it's true... that there is a True Self, hidden behind the surface self identity?

Wouldn't you want to find out for yourself?

Of course, that would mean giving up assumptions and cautions and expectations... just for a moment...
just to become aware in the open quiet presence of your own being... beyond the mind.

It's really not the threat the conditioned ego-mind believes it is.


Xan

[Xan]

Some of us are simply compelled to investigate the Truth of ourselves and all existence...
It's built-in, as if our true Self were pursuing us rather than the other way around...
And some people, well... not yet.


Xan

[Xan]

Shepherd...

Sometimes I wonder why you are involved with this spiritual forum, since you seem preoccupied with denying anything of a spiritual nature.


with kindness
Xan

[hybrid]

behind the eyes hybrid, behind the eyes:smile: Whatever is going on within you,
behind the eyes is the now infamous "true self" in contrast to the mirror image of you as the self image in front your eyes. (the appearances)

this relationship is true in the cosmic as well as individual scale.

.

[hybrid]

Maybe it's your copy who looks at you from a different world. Try and enter the portal, maybe your heads collide.:D
out of topic! this is beyond the scope of self. :tongue:
not unless you wanted to point out this is the true condition of the self. LoL

mmm okay.. Shepherd asked if it's useful to chase the true self. I would say no, because 'true self' and 'false self' imply entities.
I see the 'self' as more dynamic, more as a verb and not a noun. Did the noun made the verb or did the verb made the noun?

So to answer Shepherd's question - I think it's pointless chasing true selves, as it creates inner entities and inner struggles between the things you like and the things you dislike, which become aspects of these selves. Instead of having all these battles in the head, we should recognize all of it as elements of a dynamic process.

ah... there's the rub.
how would you go about in recognizing this ?
would you care to name the first step?

.

[hybrid]

its a famous story about a young boy who goes on a journey when all along what he was looking for was right at the start.
ain't that the truth.

Hmm, maybe but I have explored lots of maps on the journey which many professed to be true but in the end they were true to them but not to me.

I had to learn to create my own map and trust my own inner direction.
well there's enlightenment 101 and then again perhaps there is no end to enlightenment.

I agree, I wasnt being rude or finger pointing, I made an observation due to the effects of what people say is their true selves.
yes but i see no problem with the idea of true self, the problem i see is if it is imposed on everyone . also not because true self is not universal, it may as well be. we just don't like being coerced.

.

[3dnow]

Don't underestimate the higher self.

Compare a simple musician to Mozart. The difference is how close you are to your higher self.

3dnow

[shaya48]

Some of us are simply compelled to investigate the Truth of ourselves and all existence...
It's built-in, as if our true Self were pursuing us rather than the other way around...
And some people, well... not yet.


Xan





Hi Ian:smile: I like that, about our true selves pursuing us, its a very good way of putting it, and it makes alot of sense,.

We dont know our true selves, and what we are capable of until we have certain experienes, that are necessary for us to learn more about ourselves.

Some people will learn more than others about themselves, if they choose, some wont, its thier choice.

Its like a little voice saying is this all that i am capable of being and having in my life, so that built in device you mentioned about the truth persuing us makes sense to me because alot of us will always wonder if there is something better for us.

So the truth persuing us comes to us through what we learn from the experiences we choose to have before we came here , because those experiences open us up to the real truth of ourselves our purpose and existance here would that be a fair thing to say do you think?

Anyway i like what you said.


Love and light Shaya:hug3:

[bbr]

You can see this on various threads where some members even gloat over others with surperiority as their meditational or spiritual ways have led them to now being their true self.I'm guessing this comment is responsible for the personal/negative feedback directed your way by some individuals on this thread. I know when I first read it, I questioned why you would choose to start out your thread in this manner. It seemed overly harsh. On the other hand, your observation is entirely correct. And the same could be said for a large percentage of the posts on this forum, regardless of the particular subject. People need to feel they're right, and long to have their beliefs validated. But don't we all see that already? Why even bring it up?

I would say a good portion of new-age spirituality is little more than an ego-directed ploy to "get people to..." as you put it. And yes, "chasing the true self" can be another way of avoiding authentic self-realization work. On the other hand, the more I direct my spiritual pursuits inwardly, the more something I could identify as my "true self" seems to be making itself known to me. So there you go for what's it worth.

[Neville]

Its another Unicorn, A rare mythical creature that lives at the end of the rainbow, the "map" to help the adventurer is always written by someone else an therfore will have little bearing on your own journey aside from possibly a few sign posts.

Your identity, that thing you manufactured is your true self. Introducing what you were before and after your life to yourself is already integrated.

It took me years and years to realise that what I was looking for had been there all along. Thats a cautionary tale for the spiritual seeker. Self understanding is as easy or as difficult as you decide it should be.

Right now my true self (assuming our manufactured and conditioned identy is our false self) remains none the less me.

This is merely another duality that forms the non duality of the whole, You have an id and an ego both form you.

I am only defending identity , because we all seem to have one and therefore that too, is not a false self, It is quiet real and authentic for many of us and an integral part of the "real" you.

I can say , without any fear of contridiction from myself that I am my true self and all the parts which comprise it. If you insist upon digging like a treasure hunter to find what is already there, then you may find that it is a waste of your energies because the nature of your true self will shine through anyway.


There are I suppose other more tangible holy grails that may yield a better sense of reward upon discovery.

[shepherd]

Sometimes I wonder why you are involved with this spiritual forum, since you seem preoccupied with denying anything of a spiritual nature.

Actually Xan, spirituality is very important to me, but I won't subscribe to what some members here say in their minds is spiritual when its actually questionable, unhelpful and in some cases dangerous. I simply promote other choices for people to look at within their spirituality instead of being coererced and conditioned to subscribe to the old school version of spirituality which is often stuck in its ways.

I don't have to believe what you believe Xan to be spiritual. There is room for diversity on the forum and to be honest I am glad the old school are challenged by various members as it brings balance and discussion for spirituality to be explored and not just accepted as the truth like other religions.

What if it's true... that there is a True Self, hidden behind the surface self identity?

Wouldn't you want to find out for yourself?

Of course, that would mean giving up assumptions and cautions and expectations... just for a moment...
just to become aware in the open quiet presence of your own being... beyond the mind.

It's really not the threat the conditioned ego-mind believes it is.

What if you were being your true self at all times and that the ego was trying to get you to not accept who you are right now by sending you on a journey which has no ending?


Some of us are simply compelled to investigate the Truth of ourselves and all existence...
It's built-in, as if our true Self were pursuing us rather than the other way around...
And some people, well... not yet.

Hinting at what Xan? Is this what you do to people who are not subscribing to your version of spirituality, hint that they are not being true or that they are lost someway?

Compelled to investigate the truth of ourselves? What truth? The truth of what spiritualists say you should be discovering? If its anything different and you mention it here, suddenly you are not spiritual as its denying spirituality for some reason. Maybe Xan what you think spirituality is, is actually a self imposed prison which limits peoples minds due to an egoic agenda of those who think they know.

I explored within years ago and still continue to this day, what is often shocking is that what comes out is often very contradictory to what we are told by spiritualists as accepted truth. I am happy to stand up and not say that I know the truth but to encourage people to do the same and explore within, not to seek the true self but to explore who they are right now and ask questions about the beliefs they were told were true.

Hi Shaya48, what a lovely post and so from the heart without any agenda at all. It sounds though that you accepted who you are by working with what wasnt working for you and changing your life to make it work for you. You call it your true self which is fair enough, I think language as its barriers but it does sound like you are whole for accepting all of you.

[3dnow]

I can say , without any fear of contridiction from myself that I am my true self and all the parts which comprise it. If you insist upon digging like a treasure hunter to find what is already there, then you may find that it is a waste of your energies because the nature of your true self will shine through anyway.


There are I suppose other more tangible holy grails that may yield a better sens of reward upon discovery.

But we are not searching anything! We only want to loose extra nonsense, like fears, pride, judgement, unnecessary behavior etc.

3dnow

[Neville]

Hello 3dnow,

But we are not searching anything! We only want to loose extra nonsense, like fears, pride, judgement, unnecessary behavior etc.



I am absolutely fine with what you have said, but for a few , it would seem to be an all consuming obsesion and to me , it seems that when it gets to such a level of obsession it may then be detrimental.

In my experience, some have really screwed themselves up over what they percieve to be a necessary stripping away of the identity to get to the purity of being. And as often as not, the stripping away proves painful and traumatic.

I personally would find it hard to accept and in some cases distressing that a person is suffering unneccessaily due to an acute lack of self acceptance.

[shepherd]

But we are not searching anything! We only want to loose extra nonsense, like fears, pride, judgement, unnecessary behavior etc.

Hi 3dnow, can we actually lose those qualities within ourselves. I havehugely benefited from fear, pride, judgements and unnecessary behaviour as it helps me grow. I work with them instead of trying to get rid of them as I accept that at times they will happen. They are part of me and life has its ups and downs and I will sometimes react in ways I might not like. I don't have to feel guilty about that anymore. I accept I did whatever and just get on with it.

I cant see anyone being free of natural human emotions which are ok to have despite some spiritual approaches to be some zen like monk.

[3dnow]

Hi 3dnow, can we actually lose those qualities within ourselves. I havehugely benefited from fear, pride, judgements and unnecessary behaviour as it helps me grow. I work with them instead of trying to get rid of them as I accept that at times they will happen. They are part of me and life has its ups and downs and I will sometimes react in ways I might not like. I don't have to feel guilty about that anymore. I accept I did whatever and just get on with it.

I cant see anyone being free of natural human emotions which are ok to have despite some spiritual approaches to be some zen like monk.

Hi shepherd,

I think I will get rid of them. But don't get me wrong I am not judging myself, this should also be let go.

3dnow

[3dnow]

Hello 3dnow,

I am absolutely fine with what you have said, but for a few , it would seem to be an all consuming obsesion and to me , it seems that when it gets to such a level of obsession it may then be detrimental.

In my experience, some have really screwed themselves up over what they percieve to be a necessary stripping away of the identity to get to the purity of being. And as often as not, the stripping away proves painful and traumatic.

I personally would find it hard to accept and in some cases distressing that a person is suffering unneccessaily due to an acute lack of self acceptance.

Hi Neville,

Lack of self acceptance also goes, paradoxically :smile:

3dnow

[shepherd]

I think I will get rid of them. But don't get me wrong I am not judging myself, this should also be let go.

I am curious, what is wrong with these parts of you? Judgement will save your life daily, you have to judge to live as its part of your evolutionary development. Fear helps motivate, do your best, do something different.
Pride is accomplishment, self esteem, self confidence.

its not so black and white that what we call negative is actually bad for you, its about context and balance with each emotion and seeing what each brings to the table.

[God-Like]

I think It’s fair to say that what we are or to what our true self Is - Is alway’s present.

We are all peas from the same pod so to speak but we have different mind-sets from one another and different levels / states of self awareness.

Can each Individual say that they are In total expression of their true self?

If they are In total expression then I would say that they have realized what they are In order for this to be so..


I understand that a fish doesn’t need to realize that It’s a fish for example In order to express It’s self as a fish - he he - But a fish Is not a fish, what It Is - Is experiencing life as a fish..lol. :fish:

So our true self cannot relate to any human traits whilst In our human experience In that respect..

Is that fair enough to say?

x daz x

[3dnow]

I am curious, what is wrong with these parts of you? Judgement will save your life daily, you have to judge to live as its part of your evolutionary development. Fear helps motivate, do your best, do something different.
Pride is accomplishment, self esteem, self confidence.


Of course I agree with you but here I am talking about excessive fear, judgment and pride. Like judging others, myself, lack of belief in my ideals, fear of god/religion (unconscious but very painful), excessive pride etc.

3dnow

[bbr]

If you insist upon digging like a treasure hunter to find what is already there, then you may find that it is a waste of your energies because the nature of your true self will shine through anyway.Authentic self-realization work is hardly a waste of time. Nor can it equated to the sort of frivolous treasure hunting you appear to be alluding to here. I can read a passage in a book and suddenly gain a new and wonderful insight regarding human nature and myself. And I'm a better person for it. That is an aspect of the "true self" journey, and it's that real and straightforward.

There are really two different conversations here. There is the self of the ever-changing present moment. That is who we are as incarnated souls striving to learn and grow on the material plane. And Shepherd is correct to point out that we should happily embrace that self. And there is also the idealized self, the higher self, the better self, etc. which all of us aspire towards, daily, hourly and minute-by-minute.

[hybrid]

I think It’s fair to say that what we are or to what our true self Is - Is alway’s present.

We are all peas from the same pod so to speak but we have different mind-sets from one another and different levels / states of self awareness.

Can each Individual say that they are In total expression of their true self?

If they are In total expression then I would say that they have realized what they are In order for this to be so..


I understand that a fish doesn’t need to realize that It’s a fish for example In order to express It’s self as a fish - he he - But a fish Is not a fish, what It Is - Is experiencing life as a fish..lol. :fish:

So our true self cannot relate to any human traits whilst In our human experience In that respect..

Is that fair enough to say?

x daz x
yes. true self. true identity.
another example would be a metaphor of an eagle that grew among the chickens.
so even though its true identity/true nature/true self as an eagle,
it lives and thinks of itself as a chicken.

.

[Greenslade]

Maybe I should cut off the arm that brings that cold beer to my lips, or stop the thoughts that say 'that hit the spot'. Perhaps cutting out the spleen would help but what would there be to vent?

If I go on holiday I pack what I need - or think I need :-) Some things I have to leave behind, this well-shaped seat fits my backside rather nicely thank you, but it won't go into a suitcase. My work head is left at home and the holiday-maker's head goes on instead. I immerse myself in the holiday whatever that might be because that is the holiday I have chosen - in that place at that time.

I am right here, right now. This is where my True Self is - being human with all of the faults and foibles. If part of that human experience is to enjoy that beer, I'm not about to rip my arm off and if I need to vent, gimme my spleen back already. If my True Self needed to be somewhere else, isn't that where I'd be? We are Spirit on a human Journey, so we've made the choice and packed the suitcase. If you want the local culture to be the same as it was at home then stay at home.

[shepherd]

So our true self cannot relate to any human traits whilst In our human experience In that respect..

Is this from a souls perspective? I often wonder if the ideas we have about what a soul is what its doing here are just stories we created to give our lives meaning. Not that theres anything wrong with that but what else could be happening?

What if this experience was it on all levels including as a soul? Would this change what people would be doing with their lives.


If my True Self needed to be somewhere else, isn't that where I'd be? We are Spirit on a human Journey, so we've made the choice and packed the suitcase. If you want the local culture to be the same as it was at home then stay at home

A really nice perspective!

[Greenslade]

So our true self cannot relate to any human traits whilst In our human experience In that respect..

Is that fair enough to say?

x daz x

Isn't that why we're here? For our True Self to experience that?


yes. true self. true identity.
another example would be a metaphor of an eagle that grew among the chickens.
so even though its true identity/true nature/true self as an eagle,
it lives and thinks of itself as a chicken.

.

In order to experience what it's like to be a chicken.

[bbr]

I often wonder if the ideas we have about what a soul is what its doing here are just stories we created to give our lives meaning.

What if this experience was it on all levels including as a soul?And what if it isn't? What if it's much more than we even imagine? I'm not a spiritual nihilist, so I tend towards latter "personal belief paradigm", lol. But in the end, yes, it's all just speculation. Not sure if and how that matters though, given this is a discussion forum. And the very reason we're here is to speculate, discuss and share.

[Greenslade]

..

Is this from a souls perspective? I often wonder if the ideas we have about what a soul is what its doing here are just stories we created to give our lives meaning. Not that theres anything wrong with that but what else could be happening?

What if this experience was it on all levels including as a soul? Would this change what people would be doing with their lives.
A really nice perspective!


Thanks, Shepherd.

You mean there's a possibility that it's not on all levels? That's a scary thought if there was ever one. To me that would imply that us being here and doing what we're doing is of little value if it doesn't go 'up the line'.

[Emmalevine]

Doesn't it really boil down to people believe there is an aspect of the personality - the soul or spirit -that is eternal? If this was the case, that part could also be demmed the true or higher self.

Otherwise, if this life is all there is, it doesn't make sense to say we have a higher self, lower self or whatever else, because we would merely be fluctating energy that eventually dies. Perhaps the subconscious mind is the closest we could come to naming the higher self in this belief system.

I personally think it's all semantics anyway. I'm aware of thoughts and emotions but I don't class them as 'me' because they pass and I can't latch onto them. Therefore they are not part of my being. Neither is my physcial body because I could survive without a lot of it (limbs etc). So who is the self, never mind the true self?

Who knows...but I think we'll always have different perspectives and there's nothing wrong with that. The tree of life offers many views.

[God-Like]

Isn't that why we're here? For our True Self to experience that?

Yes I agree - within the experience of human form, we can realize what we are and what we are not..

x daz x

[God-Like]

yes. true self. true identity.
another example would be a metaphor of an eagle that grew among the chickens.
so even though its true identity/true nature/true self as an eagle,
it lives and thinks of itself as a chicken.

.

lol yes hybrid.

And at some point the eagle will have a realization when It see's It's own reflection that It Is not a chicken. Or perhaps will see it's self In another eagle that may present It's self.

x daz x

[shepherd]

And what if it isn't? What if it's much more than we even imagine? I'm not a spiritual nihilist, so I tend towards latter "personal belief paradigm", lol. But in the end, yes, it's all just speculation. Not sure if and how that matters though, given this is a discussion forum. And the very reason we're here is to speculate, discuss and share.
Very true, it makes for an interesting discussion though doesn't it?

Thanks, Shepherd.

You mean there's a possibility that it's not on all levels? That's a scary thought if there was ever one. To me that would imply that us being here and doing what we're doing is of little value if it doesn't go 'up the line'.
Oops. Well what sort of got me thinking was the Mayfly whos life as an adult can be a few minutes or a few days. That seems short to us and they are part of an eco system which is very important, I dont think they try to find their true selves whilst living for that short time, they just live their life and die.

Are we doing the same but filling it up with what we think is important instead of loving and living our dreams?

I can understand the need to believe that this life isnt just it and that we go on afterwards as we dont like to think our lives dont continue in some way. I'm not keen on the learning theories or that my soul is some sort of all knowing entity part of a whole. I wonder what else is going on but whilst I take some time to wonder and explore I still make sure I live my life.

[shepherd]

Just a thought.

Is it the accepting who you are right now that's the difficult part?

[shaya48]

I'm guessing this comment is responsible for the personal/negative feedback directed your way by some individuals on this thread. I know when I first read it, I questioned why you would choose to start out your thread in this manner. It seemed overly harsh. On the other hand, your observation is entirely correct. And the same could be said for a large percentage of the posts on this forum, regardless of the particular subject. People need to feel they're right, and long to have their beliefs validated. But don't we all see that already? Why even bring it up?

I would say a good portion of new-age spirituality is little more than an ego-directed ploy to "get people to..." as you put it. And yes, "chasing the true self" can be another way of avoiding authentic self-realization work. On the other hand, the more I direct my spiritual pursuits inwardly, the more something I could identify as my "true self" seems to be making itself known to me. So there you go for what's it worth.


This is only my opinion for what its worth,:smile: as i feel alot of us have been judged here as being egotisacal , always wanting to be right, (which is crapp) we offer advise, guidance comfort and reasurrane to those in need, that isnt wanting to be right how can it be? and as far as not facing the reality of life what a crock that is too, it has taken me a lifetime of some very painfull , hard and emotional lessons to learn about myself my purpose here and of life, from lifes experiences in its rawest form.'

Walk a mile in my shoes, before you say i have avoided anything of life and of reality i have faced reality head on, i had no other choice but to, losing my son at 19 was a real reality and the hardest reality that i have ever had to face(,so was the pain )except, try to deal with and live with and still carry on with my life you cant run away from something like that, so that sentence of( avoiding self realization of work in the reality of the real world, is something you obviously havent experienced yet yourself, i hope you never do experience losing a child.)it takes alot of strength to want to still be here without your son as a mother.

Without facing and living through those times i wouldnt be the person i am today with the strengths i have now to face the rest of my life and anything that may still come in and challenge me , you dont know the truth of yourself until it hits you in the face from the experiences you have that teach you about yourself, if you want to learn, we dont tell others that life is all wonderful, when we know ourselves , what some of us will go through to learn our lifes lessons, but we also know we have love, joy and happiness in our lives to look forward, life is a balance here of both negative and positive energies called life.

I dont do readings here or help others for money, self gain, recognition or to be egotisical about myself , i offer my time and energy because i want to, i know what it is like to have worries and be in pain, my journey through life has led me to my spritual path to be able to help those in need from what i have experienced in my life in the real world not lala land where everything is wonderful and without pain, worry and lessons.

We all go through having over powering egos at one time, but spirit gives us a kick in the butt when necessary or in their own way so we soon drop that, and its not just spiritual people i am talking about i mean all of us, there is nothing wrong with having an healthy ego the one that doesnt overtake everything else, and sese to others i am better than you .'


There are lots of lovely genuine helpers of others on this forum, who have helped me alot and given me comfort, without ego's without wanting anything in return, without wanting recognition for themsleves, just offering alot of love, wisom and comfort from their heart and soul,:hug:

I know alot of these people have been through alot in their lives,and have had to experience alot more that some do in life for their spiritual learning which has been necessary for their true purpose here you cant help others unless you have certain experiences yourself of what you are meant to and as individuals we all have our own experiences as according to how we are meant to use our gifts to help others.

They have chosen a very hard path but a very rewarding one , when you reach out to another in pain or despair, and help that soul, then you know why you have chosen this path and nothing can touch that feeling of humbleness and love you feel for that person.

Love and light. Shaya.:hug3:

[Neville]

Hello bbr,

"Authentic self-realization work is hardly a waste of time."

Surely your self realization is a need in the individual or is it an instinctual behaviour? Surely that then becomes the perogative of the allegedly "false self". Your need to improve and enrich your life, to become "enlightened" Do you do this because you want to or is it a conditioned mantra of seeking to improve.

"Nor can it equated to the sort of frivolous treasure hunting you appear to be alluding to here."

A quick double take there, I am not even sure I can spell frivolous. Are you thinking that I am raging against the conditioned or instinctive perogative of self improvement, all of us search out ways of enriching and improving ourselves, so what you thought I was alluding to and what I said seem to be suffering from a parting of the ways,

" I can read a passage in a book and suddenly gain a new and wonderful insight regarding human nature and myself."

Me too

"And I'm a better person for it. That is an aspect of the "true self" journey, and it's that real and straightforward."

So You become a better person through learning, ergo becoming intellectually enriched makes you a better person and is an aspect of the "true selfs" journey ?


A distinct possibility of two cnversations taking place occured to me also,

"There is the self of the ever-changing present moment. That is who we are as incarnated souls striving to learn and grow on the material plane. And Shepherd is correct to point out that we should happily embrace that self. And there is also the idealized self, the higher self, the better self, etc. which all of us aspire towards, daily, hourly and minute-by-minute."

Both "selves" form the whole, I have, as you may have gathered not subscribed into the belief that a person is comprised of two distinct selves, If any thing a person is a sum total of many, many parts and not just two.

But I am happy for others to go in search and discover what is already there.

[shepherd]

This is only my opinion for what its worth,:smile: as i feel alot of us have been judged here as being egotisacal , always wanting to be right, (which is crapp) we offer advise, guidance comfort and reasurrane to those in need, that isnt wanting to be right how can it be?

Hi Shaya48,

You only have to see the responses to some posts to see that there are people who want to force through their agendas and version of spirituality. We all have done that at some point, its natural to want to pass on what works for us and think it will work for others too as the truth. It's good though to have it pointed out when we do it, intentionally or not intentionally so we can take a step back and think about our attachments to our truths.

I prefer to offer options and choices to the various spiritual beliefs we are told are the truth and i'm heavily critisized for it. Xan posted an unnecessary post asking why I am on this forum due to denying spirituality because I put forward different points of view on the subject. It shows that anyone doing something different is often seen as rocking the boat. Yet though I question spiritual beliefs, the objections and reasons people put for their beliefs are so enlightening and full of information which not only helps me but helps others. We all have questions and cant just blindly accept beliefs in a put up or shut up way.

Questioning beliefs can reinforce them or help them evolve, its all choice really.

Your posts are fab by the way and from the heart. I don't always agree but your honesty speaks volumes about you.

[Greenslade]

Yes I agree - within the experience of human form, we can realize what we are and what we are not..

x daz x

Perhaps in this realm of Duality (if it really exists) it's one of the few (if not only) place that can happen?


lol yes hybrid.

And at some point the eagle will have a realization when It see's It's own reflection that It Is not a chicken. Or perhaps will see it's self In another eagle that may present It's self.

x daz x

Or it'll carry on believing it's a chicken regardless? lol.


Oops. Well what sort of got me thinking was the Mayfly whos life as an adult can be a few minutes or a few days. That seems short to us and they are part of an eco system which is very important, I dont think they try to find their true selves whilst living for that short time, they just live their life and die.

Are we doing the same but filling it up with what we think is important instead of loving and living our dreams?

I can understand the need to believe that this life isnt just it and that we go on afterwards as we dont like to think our lives dont continue in some way. I'm not keen on the learning theories or that my soul is some sort of all knowing entity part of a whole. I wonder what else is going on but whilst I take some time to wonder and explore I still make sure I live my life.

I suppose that would depend on the question of whether or not the mayfly has a consciousness. To some maybe, these questions are important - but each to their own. Some want to know all the gory details and understand that there is something more 'out there' bigger and better than they feel they are at this present moment. If that works for them then power to their elbow. Perhaps the lesson from the mayfly is 'get on and do whatever you do and have done'.

Just a thought.

Is it the accepting who you are right now that's the difficult part?

For some maybe. Perhaps if people who aren't so in touch with their Real Self need it to be so. If they were so in touch, would they trying to climb so high to achieve it? Perhaps if they stopped climbing they'd see they didn't need to.

Questioning beliefs can reinforce them or help them evolve, its all choice really.

If beliefs can't stand up to the challenge then are they built on sand? And if you can't take the challenge then it's time for questions of yourself.

[3dnow]

Questioning beliefs can reinforce them or help them evolve, its all choice really.

Higher self is not really a belief though. It is a knowing though experience.

3dnow

[bbr]

"Authentic self-realization work is hardly a waste of time."

Surely your self realization is a need in the individual or is it an instinctual behaviour? Surely that then becomes the perogative of the allegedly "false self". Your need to improve and enrich your life, to become "enlightened" Do you do this because you want to or is it a conditioned mantra of seeking to improve.Hi Neville. For the record, I wasn't criticizing your post. I was really only responding to the idea(s) put forward that there is no such thing as a "true self." As I stated, I do believe most people aspire to become better people. Yes, they see where they are in the moment, and can accept and love that. But they also strive to become that idealized version of their self they long to be at some future point. And what's wrong with that? World religions and spiritual development are founded on such ideals.

As for your questions, I'm in my mid-50s and I have to say I don't go out of my way to treasure hunt for "enlightenment" anymore, lol. As I said, I may read a book, come across a passage and have a eureka moment. But no, I don't "do" anything, other than try and maintain a happy outlook and live in the moment as it were. But that doesn't mean I ignore the ongoing process of continually striving towards uncovering my "better self."

[BlueSky]

Questioning beliefs can reinforce them or help them evolve, its all choice really. Shepherd

Yes, but this all falls apart if it is 'us' questioning the beliefs of 'others' IMO
I feel that this thread silently does this. No offense intended.
I say......Bless those who believe in a true self and bless those who don't.
James

[shepherd]

Questioning beliefs can reinforce them or help them evolve, its all choice really. Shepherd

Yes, but this all falls apart if it is 'us' questioning the beliefs of 'others' IMO
I feel that this thread silently does this. No offense intended.
I say......Bless those who believe in a true self and bless those who don't.

Hi James, I can see why you think that for you its this way but for me this thread has provided some brilliant insights into why people believe in the true self. We have to question and we have to challenge as just subscribing to beliefs and hoping for the best is just like sticking ones head in the sand.

I hope people learn from threads like this.

[BlueSky]

Hi James, I can see why you think that for you its this way but for me this thread has provided some brilliant insights into why people believe in the true self. We have to question and we have to challenge as just subscribing to beliefs and hoping for the best is just like sticking ones head in the sand.

I hope people learn from threads like this.


I dunno…..Many people question their beliefs and many never do. We don’t have to question them unless we feel we have to. My point was that I am not a fan of questioning 'others' beliefs, unless of course they ask me to and even then, I only share from my own experieinces.
But that is just me.........

[boxinggregger0]

This is only my opinion for what its worth,:smile: as i feel alot of us have been judged here as being egotisacal , always wanting to be right, (which is crapp) we offer advise, guidance comfort and reasurrane to those in need, that isnt wanting to be right how can it be? and as far as not facing the reality of life what a crock that is too, it has taken me a lifetime of some very painfull , hard and emotional lessons to learn about myself my purpose here and of life, from lifes experiences in its rawest form.'

Walk a mile in my shoes, before you say i have avoided anything of life and of reality i have faced reality head on, i had no other choice but to, losing my son at 19 was a real reality and the hardest reality that i have ever had to face(,so was the pain )except, try to deal with and live with and still carry on with my life you cant run away from something like that, so that sentence of( avoiding self realization of work in the reality of the real world, is something you obviously havent experienced yet yourself, i hope you never do experience losing a child.)it takes alot of strength to want to still be here without your son as a mother.

Without facing and living through those times i wouldnt be the person i am today with the strengths i have now to face the rest of my life and anything that may still come in and challenge me , you dont know the truth of yourself until it hits you in the face from the experiences you have that teach you about yourself, if you want to learn, we dont tell others that life is all wonderful, when we know ourselves , what some of us will go through to learn our lifes lessons, but we also know we have love, joy and happiness in our lives to look forward, life is a balance here of both negative and positive energies called life.

I dont do readings here or help others for money, self gain, recognition or to be egotisical about myself , i offer my time and energy because i want to, i know what it is like to have worries and be in pain, my journey through life has led me to my spritual path to be able to help those in need from what i have experienced in my life in the real world not lala land where everything is wonderful and without pain, worry and lessons.

We all go through having over powering egos at one time, but spirit gives us a kick in the butt when necessary or in their own way so we soon drop that, and its not just spiritual people i am talking about i mean all of us, there is nothing wrong with having an healthy ego the one that doesnt overtake everything else, and sese to others i am better than you .'


There are lots of lovely genuine helpers of others on this forum, who have helped me alot and given me comfort, without ego's without wanting anything in return, without wanting recognition for themsleves, just offering alot of love, wisom and comfort from their heart and soul,:hug:

I know alot of these people have been through alot in their lives,and have had to experience alot more that some do in life for their spiritual learning which has been necessary for their true purpose here you cant help others unless you have certain experiences yourself of what you are meant to and as individuals we all have our own experiences as according to how we are meant to use our gifts to help others.

They have chosen a very hard path but a very rewarding one , when you reach out to another in pain or despair, and help that soul, then you know why you have chosen this path and nothing can touch that feeling of humbleness and love you feel for that person.

Love and light. Shaya.:hug3: hey shaya, you were certainly pretty spot on, with the advice i ''found'' , lol , ...........we are indeed all connected, oh yes ,the person in spirit, name is mary ....not sure if she is a deceased relative on my ''soulmate's side , but she has guided me ...................i'm still exploring and growing , intresting time's :smile:

[andrew g]

The idea of a 'True' Self isnt one I use a whole lot, but if we go with the idea that there is a true self then there must be a false self. I would say that the true self is who we are when we are not seeking approval and control and the false self is therefore obviously who we are when we are seeking approval and control.

[Chrysaetos]

just to become aware in the open quiet presence of your own being... beyond the mind.Even going beyond the mind is not going to shut down the brain. Various beliefs, expectations, ideas, and concepts could still crawl in like sneaky snakes. Just like dreams.
During a dream we might not be aware or not be thinking, but still the baggage we carry makes its way into the dream.
Don't underestimate the higher self.
The difference is how close you are to your higher self. This is the problem - The idea of two selves battling over supremacy.

[shepherd]

I dunno…..Many people question their beliefs and many never do. We don’t have to question them unless we feel we have to. My point was that I am not a fan of questioning 'others' beliefs, unless of course they ask me to and even then, I only share from my own experieinces.
But that is just me......

Might be a bit wierd to be on a forum where beliefs are questioned, explored and discussed then James ;0)

I find the whole true self fascinating but what seems to stand out is the conflict it can cause with the lack of acceptance for who someone is. Yes we all want to be better in various areas and that intention helps us move forward but I can't see where the dividing line is for when someone feels they are their true selves? Where does it end?

Its easy to live somewhere where there are no or little challenges in life and then go on about being true, but would the same be felt if moved to somewhere where life is very different?

A monk for example could feel very true in a church in virtual isolation but then would they feel the same in Manila or other crowded and harsh cities?

[Neville]

Hello bbr,

Hi Neville. For the record, I wasn't criticizing your post,

I would not be offended if you were, Now please allow me to illucidate a little, To explain from where my stance originates

My logical mind is having a great deal of trouble with accepting that any part of a person is false, as would seem to be being implied by the suggestion of the existence that beneath all of the facade of our image there exists a true self,

I do accept that this might be semantics on my part because if a person speaks of their soul or "divine self" whatever one of those is, it fails to establish the existence of a false self, A false self who's existence from thebeginning of my discussion in this thread I have been attempting to dismiss,

Perhaps thatts what is my personal issue, the concept that any part of a person , especially the external image that they live eat and breath on this planet with might in some way be false, Because if it is false, it renders our physical existence a complete mockery lacking any meaning. because it's false .

:smile: Boy I'm glad i got that out of my system.

[BlueSky]

Might be a bit wierd to be on a forum where (other's) beliefs are questioned, James



exactly!!!!!! It is wierd........:smile:

[bbr]

My logical mind is having a great deal of trouble with accepting that any part of a person is false, as would seem to be being implied by the suggestion of the existence that beneath all of the facade of our image there exists a true selfBut I'm not suggesting that our current self (as opposed to our true self) is a false self. Rather, we continually expand into truer and truer versions of selfhood as we live, learn and grow. And from that POV, the current self could be considered the complete "true self" at any given moment. And if that's what you and Shepherd are saying, then I can certainly agree with that.

[bbr]

Yes we all want to be better in various areas and that intention helps us move forward but I can't see where the dividing line is for when someone feels they are their true selves? Where does it end?There would be no "ultimate true self" or final endpoint. Like all growth, the development of self is in a continual state of transformation and expansion.

[Neville]

Hello again bbr,

I think we are in agreement.

the current self is always the complete "true self" at any given moment

That is in my view a spot on appraisal, and dismisses entirely the existence of a an equal and opposite false self to the "true self" :smile:

[shepherd]

But I'm not suggesting that our current self (as opposed to our true self) is a false self. Rather, we continually expand into truer and truer versions of selfhood as we live, learn and grow. And from that POV, the current self could be considered the complete "true self" at any given moment. And if that's what you and Shepherd are saying, then I can certainly agree with that.

Sort of. I think we are always our true self no matter what judgement we give ourselves or is given to us. We keep on evolving through life experiences and this just is still part of being true as life is ever evolving as the universe continues expanding. What we deny in ourselves is part of the whole and we could call it false, an illusion, the ego etc but its still part of the evolving whole. We are complete in each moment, but the inner conflicts we have will suggest other wise. I find for me personally accepting who i am right now rather liberating but it doesnt leave me complacent and without the enjoyment of knowing I am changing in each moment too as I continue to expand with the universe.

[bbr]

We are complete in each momentWell, I'd have to say yes and no to that perspective. Twenty years ago I was a somewhat miserable and unfriendly sort of person. I certainly wasn't perfect. And I'm certainly glad that I, to a large degree at least, overcame those personal shortcomings from my younger days. I understand the new-age take on self-acceptance and loving oneself. But I'm absolutely not the person I would like to be, even now, and I'm see myself on a happy life quest to improve upon all that, always. And I don't see a problem with that -- it's a grounded, realistic perspective IMO.

[hybrid]

true self is based on the assumption that existence or nature is inherently good and light.
so that a drunkard that beats his children is deemed to be not acting in alignment with his true self.

.

[shepherd]

That sort of reminds me bbr of a client I was working with who would lose their weight and reach their goal in 10 months. They said to me " I will be happy then," which set alarm bells ringing.

They went onto explain that they wouldnt be happy until they reached their goal. I asked if it had always been this way and they said "yes". They also lifted up their fat and said "how could I be happy with this? If I am happy then I would not be motivated to change."


I could see the reasoning yet it was this unhappiness that was causing the weight gain and another 10 months of being unhappy would create another failure and so the cycle is repeated. So together we hatched a plan to be happy now and to love losing weight, to love being lighter, healthier and to appreciate their life and health now.

It worked.

We may not always be what we want to be but we are complete and ever changing. an embryo is complete, an egg is complete, a caterpillar is complete, a cocoon is complete and so is the butterfly. All different stages happening naturally.

The love for life can be create quite a change and its amazing what can happen right now when we are happy right now.

[BlueSky]

true self is based on the assumption that existence or nature is inherently good and light.
so that a drunkard that beats his children is deemed to be not acting in alignment with his true self.

.
I think that I tend to view people this way as well. :smile:

[andrew g]

true self is based on the assumption that existence or nature is inherently good and light.
so that a drunkard that beats his children is deemed to be not acting in alignment with his true self.

.

Yes. Nicely said.

[shepherd]

true self is based on the assumption that existence or nature is inherently good and light.
so that a drunkard that beats his children is deemed to be not acting in alignment with his true self.

Where do we stop though with the quest to be in the light? Who says what is good and what is bad? Isnt this one of the problems with religion which dictates what is and without acceptance?

It's still seen as a sin to be homosexual. They could argue with the light perspective that someone who is gay isn't their true self. Where would this end?

As for the guy hitting his children I would put forward that he is being his self during this act hence it is happening and hence there are reasons why it is happening. It could be from various forms of conditioning, a mental illness, cultural differences and so on. To say he is not being himself suggests he is someone else. Thats not so, he is behaving as his mind only knows how to act in that moment, regardless of our condemnation of such acts. In my opinion he is still is himself. Could he be different? Yes.

[hybrid]

Where do we stop though with the quest to be in the light? Who says what is good and what is bad? Isnt this one of the problems with religion which dictates what is and without acceptance?
it's unstoppable. :tongue:

It's still seen as a sin to be homosexual. They could argue with the light perspective that someone who is gay isn't their true self. Where would this end?
this is the position of the church and not of our good nature. this will stop to give way to light. several years ago slavery was acceptable, now it's considered barbaric to enslave someone.

the natural evolution of consciousness is moving toward the reflection of is perfection.

As for the guy hitting his children I would put forward that he is being his self during this act hence it is happening and hence there are reasons why it is happening. It could be from various forms of conditioning, a mental illness, cultural differences and so on. To say he is not being himself suggests he is someone else. Thats not so, he is behaving as his mind only knows how to act in that moment, regardless of our condemnation of such acts. In my opinion he is still is himself. Could he be different? Yes.
there is no fixed self to say it is the same at all times.
not unless you believe in a soul.
if you do, then this soul is your true self.


,

[Chrysaetos]

I am right here, right now. This is where my True Self is - being human with all of the faults and foibles. If part of that human experience is to enjoy that beer, I'm not about to rip my arm off and if I need to vent, gimme my spleen back already. If my True Self needed to be somewhere else, isn't that where I'd be? We are Spirit on a human Journey, so we've made the choice and packed the suitcase. If you want the local culture to be the same as it was at home then stay at home.I really like the way you put that together, Greenslade.In my opinion he is still is himself. Could he be different? Yes. And by acknowledging that his aggression is a part of himself can he work on it.
Saying that it's just his inner demon, or any other external force is not going to help him.

[Kapitan_Prien]

I second Greenslade's comment:

Originally Posted by Greenslade
I am right here, right now. This is where my True Self is - being human with all of the faults and foibles. If part of that human experience is to enjoy that beer, I'm not about to rip my arm off and if I need to vent, gimme my spleen back already. If my True Self needed to be somewhere else, isn't that where I'd be? We are Spirit on a human Journey, so we've made the choice and packed the suitcase. If you want the local culture to be the same as it was at home then stay at home.


I love the part about the beer!...only for me it would be a bottle of Cabernet wine :D :D :D

[shaya48]

hey shaya, you were certainly pretty spot on, with the advice i ''found'' , lol , ...........we are indeed all connected, oh yes ,the person in spirit, name is mary ....not sure if she is a deceased relative on my ''soulmate's side , but she has guided me ...................i'm still exploring and growing , intresting time's :smile:

Hi:smile: Boxinggreggero,

Thankyou for that i am glad you could relate to the message and gr8t that Mary did mean something to you it came through very strong, keep on exploring hey, its great what life can show you and what you will get to experience, and yes you will always grow enjoy your life to the fullest.

Love and light Shay.:hug3:

[shaya48]

Hi Shaya48,

You only have to see the responses to some posts to see that there are people who want to force through their agendas and version of spirituality. We all have done that at some point, its natural to want to pass on what works for us and think it will work for others too as the truth. It's good though to have it pointed out when we do it, intentionally or not intentionally so we can take a step back and think about our attachments to our truths.

I prefer to offer options and choices to the various spiritual beliefs we are told are the truth and i'm heavily critisized for it. Xan posted an unnecessary post asking why I am on this forum due to denying spirituality because I put forward different points of view on the subject. It shows that anyone doing something different is often seen as rocking the boat. Yet though I question spiritual beliefs, the objections and reasons people put for their beliefs are so enlightening and full of information which not only helps me but helps others. We all have questions and cant just blindly accept beliefs in a put up or shut up way.

Questioning beliefs can reinforce them or help them evolve, its all choice really.

Your posts are fab by the way and from the heart. I don't always agree but your honesty speaks volumes about you.


Hi Shepherd,:smile:


Thanks for that,

its not easy always easy giving out advise, you just try your best to help where ever you can, some from what you have experienced yourself of life and of course the wisdom from spirit.

Not everyone will want to listen or take advise it is their choice,and thats fine,if something gels then that good, they can go from there and follow their own intuition and choices.

I shouldnt get into these discussions lol:smile: and i shouldnt let my anger get the better of me at times with some of the things that are said about us, from those who have little knowledge about what some of us we are really about , and our feelings that do get hurt.


From now on i am just going to stick to trying to help those in need of comfort, guidance and reasurrance in their lives to help them on their journey, which isnt always an easy one but can be a very rewarding one with lots of adventures, excitement, love, happines, learning and growing.:smile:

Love and light Shaya:hug3:

[Westleigh]

I have only skimmed most of this thread, but I wanted to add my comment. It has been said by many spiritual teachers that our purpose here is to remember who we are. Everyone's experience is different, but for me the concept of higher self is entirely true and valid. It is in releasing our emotional dysfunctions, past difficulties, and attachments to the physical that we begin to uncover it and advance spiritually as well as attain a much greater sense of emotional freedom and fulfilment. It is not about unacceptance of the current self but realising the true potential of who we truly are as spiritual beings. Some may use a different name for that process, but it does not matter what name you give to it. You might say, "true self", "spiritual self", "complete self", "enlightened self" or "awakened self", you might say "Christ consciousness" or "Buddha consciousness". Don't all these terms have the same essential meaning? Whether some people try to assert some sort of spiritual superiority over others is really an entirely seperate issue to the validity of this concept (which is simply the concept of progressing spiritually, and aren't we all here to do that?). I think it is a mistake to try to draw a connection between the two.

And of course the map that we use has to be developed by us as we go along, but sometimes reading about the paths others have taken can give us a little help on our journey. :smile:

[Xan]

If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.


Xan

[hybrid]

nice summation, westleigh

[3dnow]

If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.


Xan

I like the message :hug3:

3dnow

[Emmalevine]

If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.


Xan

I agree Xan, and a nice message at that.

[shepherd]

If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.
I agree, but who says this was spiritual superiority?

Spiritual superiority as mentioned here was referring to members who claim that their spiritual way is the truth is gloats and boasts about what they think they have managed to achieve, they then tell members that their turn will come when ready etc which is weird because if they achieved what they said then they wouldnt be interacting with members that way in the first place. This is just an observation.

[Greenslade]

Where do we stop though with the quest to be in the light? Who says what is good and what is bad? Isnt this one of the problems with religion which dictates what is and without acceptance?

It's still seen as a sin to be homosexual. They could argue with the light perspective that someone who is gay isn't their true self. Where would this end?

As for the guy hitting his children I would put forward that he is being his self during this act hence it is happening and hence there are reasons why it is happening. It could be from various forms of conditioning, a mental illness, cultural differences and so on. To say he is not being himself suggests he is someone else. Thats not so, he is behaving as his mind only knows how to act in that moment, regardless of our condemnation of such acts. In my opinion he is still is himself. Could he be different? Yes.

"Where do we stop though with the quest to be in the light?" it's our choice. If you've had enough of the questing then put your feet up. If you enjoy the quest, rock and roll.

"Who says what is good and what is bad? " Those who judge.

" Isnt this one of the problems with religion which dictates what is and without acceptance?"
If it works for some, but only you can answer the question of whether or not it's your true self.

"It's still seen as a sin to be homosexual. They could argue with the light perspective that someone who is gay isn't their true self. Where would this end?"
When people start looking behind the mask and stop judging.

"As for the guy hitting his children I would put forward that he is being his self during this act hence it is happening and hence there are reasons why it is happening. It could be from various forms of conditioning, a mental illness, cultural differences and so on. To say he is not being himself suggests he is someone else. Thats not so, he is behaving as his mind only knows how to act in that moment, regardless of our condemnation of such acts. In my opinion he is still is himself. Could he be different? Yes"
I'll agree with that one, but then again you have to look behind the mask. And there's always a choice.

I really like the way you put that together, Greenslade. And by acknowledging that his aggression is a part of himself can he work on it.
Saying that it's just his inner demon, or any other external force is not going to help him.
Thanks. It's easier to give away responsibility than admit that you have so-called flaws, but it takes strength to admit to them and do something about them. But then, is calling them flaws being judgemental? Is that them following their true self? Always the opportunity to show the Universe what you're made of, or perhaps simply follow your true self?

I second Greenslade's comment:
I love the part about the beer!...only for me it would be a bottle of Cabernet wine

Right, that's it. All-out war here we come :wink: Beer drinkers this side, wine drinkers that side.


I shouldnt get into these discussions lol:smile: and i shouldnt let my anger get the better of me at times with some of the things that are said about us, from those who have little knowledge about what some of us we are really about , and our feelings that do get hurt.


From now on i am just going to stick to trying to help those in need of comfort, guidance and reasurrance in their lives to help them on their journey, which isnt always an easy one but can be a very rewarding one with lots of adventures, excitement, love, happines, learning and growing.:smile:

Love and light Shaya:hug3:
That's why we have spleens. Shaya. They're brilliant when it comes to venting :-) But if you didn't care then would your feelings get hurt?

If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.


Xan
It's in the eyes of the beholder. Echoes and reflections, Xan.

[bbr]

If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.What does this have to do with the topic of true self? Or is this just more piling on Shepherd and questioning his spirituality?

[Neville]

a drunkard that beats his children is deemed to be not acting in alignment with his true self.



This is nothing more than a personal judgement and carries no credence at all in establishing the existence of a "true self".

[hybrid]

This is nothing more than a personal judgement and carries no credence at all in establishing the existence of a "true self".
its a conclusion from the premise that human nature is intrinsically good.
read the entire post in its context.
don't snip and judge.

.

[Neville]

I'll consider myself duly reprimanded,

its a conclusion from the premise that human nature is intrinsically good.


Perhaps this statement is the misinformed and misinforming premise.

[BlueSky]

its a conclusion from the premise that human nature is intrinsically good. Hybrid

Perhaps this statement is the misinformed and misinforming premise.neville

As for me.........It is what I see everywhere...so either I am blind or..........
James

[hybrid]

I'll consider myself duly reprimanded,



Perhaps this statement is the misinformed and misinforming premise.
the riight word is "a priori" assumption. aka as belief.

.

[God-Like]

excuse me guy’s for intruding Hybrid / Nev..


My thoughts..

I would say that for those that have realized the self or what they are will all say the same regarding the love and the peace that becomes them within that realization.

How does one truly feel during or after beating up one’s wife? Happy? Sad? Peaceful? Angry?

Does the energy of beating up one’s wife coincide with what Is felt during the realization of what we are?

If not I would say that an Individual that beats up his wife Is not In expression of their true self..

x daz x

[hybrid]

As for me.........It is what I see everywhere...so either I am blind or..........
James
your not blind.
it means the assumption has basis and not a by product of the misinformed.

.

[hybrid]

excuse me guy’s for intruding Hybrid / Nev..


My thoughts..

I would say that for those that have realized the self or what they are will all say the same regarding the love and the peace that becomes them within that realization.

How does one truly feel during or after beating up one’s wife? Happy? Sad? Peaceful? Angry?

Does the energy of beating up one’s wife coincide with what Is felt during the realization of what we are?

If not I would say that an Individual that beats up his wife Is not In expression of their true self..

x daz x

i don't know why there is a resistance to judge all human beings as intrinsically good. hehe

.

[Gem]

i don't know why there is a resistance to judge all human beings as intrinsically good. hehe

.

It's because some folks are real mean.

[shepherd]

It's because some folks are real mean.
I don't see that, I see some folks do some mean things. I wouldn't taint a whole person due to something they have done.

If not I would say that an Individual that beats up his wife Is not In expression of their true self..


Whilst someone might not be happy they beat up their wife, their mind is working in a way where it happened. its still a true act as it happened its not false as that would imply it didnt. Their self is growing and evolving, what happens next is still them selves, regardless of how we judge it.

The focus on the true self seems to be unaccepting of behaviour which is deemed negative which creates unacceptance, how does unnacceptance lead to a true self?

[Chrysaetos]

Thanks. It's easier to give away responsibility than admit that you have so-called flaws, but it takes strength to admit to them and do something about them. But then, is calling them flaws being judgemental? Is that them following their true self? Always the opportunity to show the Universe what you're made of, or perhaps simply follow your true self? I think it's okay to call them flaws, as long as you don't externalize it and blame it on the ego, devil, wife, or something else.
All these externalizations might even cause schizophrenia. I'm not well informed about that subject but I think it's possible with all these unhealthy externalizations.

In a sense it is judgemental to say your aggression is wrong, but I think this is healthy judgement and the only way to move forward.
The vices are a part of you, admit it, deal with it, improve.

Linguistically this may sound contradicting, as saying something is wrong or a vice may give us the impression we are putting it outside of us.
But that's not what I'm saying. They are a part of you, but you can work on it. But by externalizing something about yourself it helps you to conceive yourself as a fixed soulie ghoulie entity.

[bbr]

The focus on the true self seems to be unaccepting of behaviour which is deemed negative which creates unacceptance, how does unnacceptance lead to a true self?I feel you're perhaps looking at this from a too narrow (clinical?) perspective. I for example explained how I happily go about life seeing all the ways I can improve my self. I'm not unhappy, and I like who I am. And I'm not longing for some time in the future when I'll can "accept myself fully" or what have you. I accept who I am, now. And at the same time I strive to become a better person each day.

And what's wrong with identifying negative behavior for what it is? I don't accept me when I'm acting badly or inappropriately, nor should I. But neither do I dwell on it or beat myself up over it. I take note of how I can improve next time, and then happily get on with things.

[hybrid]

It's because some folks are real mean.
ironically same people also resist in judging them as bad.

.

[God-Like]

Whilst someone might not be happy they beat up their wife, their mind is working in a way where it happened. its still a true act as it happened its not false as that would imply it didnt. Their self is growing and evolving, what happens next is still them selves, regardless of how we judge it.

The focus on the true self seems to be unaccepting of behaviour which is deemed negative which creates unacceptance, how does unnacceptance lead to a true self?
Hi Shepherd

You mention an Individual beating up their wife as a true act.

It would be true to say that the event occurred. That’s true.

The event would of taken place because of the unhappiness that lies deep within the abuser.

This would be a true reflection of how that Individual feels along with their Inner weaknesses and a lack self worth and respect for themselves and of others.

This Is not a reflection of their true self or an expression of what they are.

These actions occur because they are lost unto their true God-Like nature..

x daz x

[Smiler]

Hi Shepherd

If some-one has asked this * Sorry*
Read your first post.. I pose a ? or two

WHAT IS SELF?

Can one define self?

smiles at yah
:)

[bbr]

This Is not a reflection of their true self or an expression of what they are.

These actions occur because they are lost unto their true God-Like nature.Correct. Nicely stated.

[hybrid]

The focus on the true self seems to be unaccepting of behaviour which is deemed negative which creates unacceptance, how does unnacceptance lead to a true self?
no that is not how the theory works.

all i can say is anyone who practice equanimity will be surprise to recognize sooner or late an aspect of him that was totally missed before.

now you can call this new aspect true self or xyz. doesn't matter

.

[shepherd]

This Is not a reflection of their true self or an expression of what they are

Who are they?

[Xan]

The focus on the true self seems to be unaccepting of behaviour which is deemed negative which creates unacceptance, how does unnacceptance lead to a true self?

Any non-accepting is a misunderstanding in the ego-mind, however it arose or may be justified.

Accepting is the key to getting free... free in awareness as the true Self.


Xan

[Xan]

If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.

Shepherd: I agree, but who says this was spiritual superiority?

You did.


blessings
Xan

[shepherd]

Accepting is the key to getting free... free in awareness as the true Self.
No matter what is going on in my life, I am still free. There is no getting free -er as that would imply I am somehow trapped which would be made up by my mind.

Acceptance for me is being free now, not later. Nothing to chase or make happen as that would be neverending.


If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.

Shepherd: I agree, but who says this was spiritual superiority?

You did.
If you can point to that exact phrase Xan and where it was said, that would be appreciated.



There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it"

This IS the true Self.

In your opinion.

[Xan]

What does this have to do with the topic of true self?

"There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it"

This IS the true Self.


Xan

[shepherd]

If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.

Shepherd: I agree, but who says this was spiritual superiority?

You did.

I'm pretty sure that message hasnt been given and I didnt respond with spiritual superiority. Of course I could be wrong but if you could just point out where this was said Xan that would be most appreciated.

[Xan]

shepherd: No matter what is going on in my life, I am still free. There is no getting free -er as that would imply I am somehow trapped which would be made up by my mind.

Acceptance for me is being free now, not later. Nothing to chase or make happen as that would be neverending.

You are right, Shepherd. Chasing the true Self is futile since it's right here, now in the essence of your being. Spiritual awakening means simply becoming aware in It.


If you can point to that exact phrase Xan and where it was said, that would be appreciated.

You just repeated it yourself in a post above, obliquely... :wink:


There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it"

This IS the true Self.

In your opinion.


It's a thought-free experiential discovery, beyond the opinion-holding mind.


Xan

[Xan]

shepherd: No matter what is going on in my life, I am still free. There is no getting free -er as that would imply I am somehow trapped which would be made up by my mind.

Acceptance for me is being free now, not later. Nothing to chase or make happen as that would be neverending.

You are right, Shepherd. Chasing the true Self is futile since it's right here, now, in the essence of your being.

Spiritual awakening means simply becoming aware in It... and becoming free from the mind traps every human has.


If you can point to that exact phrase Xan and where it was said, that would be appreciated.

You just repeated it yourself in a post above, obliquely... :wink:


There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it"

This IS the true Self.

In your opinion.


It's a thought-free experiential discovery, beyond the opinion-holding mind.


Xan

[shepherd]

If you can point to that exact phrase Xan and where it was said, that would be appreciated.

You just repeated it yourself in a post above, obliquely... :wink:
Going out on a limb, I am guessing then it wasn't said to that exact phrase as you haven't found where I said that.


It's a thought-free experiential discovery, beyond the opinion-holding mind.

I am sure it feels that way for you but as it's personal to you and you feel it works for you it may not work for others. Your opinions on here are also created by what? True self? beyond an opinion holding mind ?

[Xan]

My opinion is this conversation is no longer interesting to me.

Bye bye, Shepherd.


Xan

[BlueSky]

Hi Shepherd,
I am curious how you would answer this question.
There are thoughts and there seems to be that which 'notices' thoughts.
Do you agree and/or do you have an opinion of why our experience is like that. (assuming we all experience a noticing of thoughts of course).
I'm just curious.
Thanks.James

[Chrysaetos]

There are thoughts and there seems to be that which 'notices' thoughts.Do you agree and/or do you have an opinion of why our experience is like that. (assuming we all experience a noticing of thoughts of course).
LOL I'm no shepherd, but I like that question..
Maybe it's a passive mind becoming aware of its active thoughts?
Now that I think about it I can't put my finger on it!

[BlueSky]

LOL I'm no shepherd, but I like that question..
Maybe it's a passive mind becoming aware of its active thoughts?
Now that I think about it I can't put my finger on it!

Ha! Me neither. Shepherd has a lot of experience that is worth hearing IMO.
I am curious what he will say here but I venture a guess since he is offline and say that he doesn't know what the answer is as to why there is a noticing seemingly, and thoughts which are seemingly noticed BUT..the issue/problem/whatever you want to call it comes into play when we try to make claim to know.
If he said this, I would agree. I can call it true self or God or the devil but I do not know...........either with the mind or beyond the mind.
My life's work/path/expereince tells me this.
I'd be lying if I said that I didn't believe that others only think they know.

[shepherd]

My opinion is this conversation is no longer interesting to me.

Bye bye, Shepherd.
What?? The cheek of it!! ...

Only joking as I do tend to have faith in the truth and hope that true colours are shown and all is well.

I am curious how you would answer this question.
There are thoughts and there seems to be that which 'notices' thoughts.
Do you agree and/or do you have an opinion of why our experience is like that. (assuming we all experience a noticing of thoughts of course).
I'm just curious.
I am aware of this as I work with this with clients who have problem thoughts. IMO The observer is still part of the mind which has seperated itself to be the observer in its role. We all have parts of us which take on various roles through various states of mind and the observer which is also a suggestion made does just that...it observes. Handy to see thoughts as they are...just thoughts, especially when we give them too much meaning. It feels different to be the observer as it dissociates from the thoughts to observe.

Hope that's clear.

Do you have other ideas WhiteShaman and Chrysaetos?

[BlueSky]

What?? The cheek of it!! ...

Only joking as I do tend to have faith in the truth and hope that true colours are shown and all is well.



I am aware of this as I work with this with clients who have problem thoughts. IMO The observer is still part of the mind which has seperated itself to be the observer in its role. We all have parts of us which take on various roles through various states of mind and the observer which is also a suggestion made does just that...it observes. Handy to see thoughts as they are...just thoughts, especially when we give them too much meaning.

Hope that's clear.

Do you have other ideas WhiteShaman and Chrysaetos?


Yes........what is it that just expressed the idea that it is handy to see thoughts as they are? If thoughts are just thoughts...what else is there? What gives them too much meaning......the thought of "me"?

[shepherd]

Yes........what is it that just expressed the idea that it is handy to see thoughts as they are? If thoughts are just thoughts...what else is there? What gives them too much meaning......the thought of "me"?

Well some thoughts do have meaning as they can warn, suggest, inspire, create and so on, by being in the observer role we can sift through the ones which are just random thoughts. I think we have so many of them due to the mind processing everything around us we are experiencing all at once as it cant do this consciously. The random thoughts can sometimes be seen consciously as valuable due to changes in our beliefs etc.

Gotta run, last client!

[BlueSky]

Well some thoughts do have meaning as they can warn, suggest, inspire, create and so on, by being in the observer role we can sift through the ones which are just random thoughts. I think we have so many of them due to the mind processing everything around us we are experiencing all at once as it cant do this consciously. The random thoughts can sometimes be seen consciously as valuable due to changes in our beliefs etc.

Gotta run, last client!

Yes, but there has to be a foundation for all of these roles and it cannot be what we see in the mirror because that is just another role.
It seems to make pretty good sense that this foundation can be called “true self” or the “space” in which “you” are played out as a role.
Do you agree?

[hybrid]

I'd be lying if I said that I didn't believe that others only think they know.
of course.
your question can't be answered except by deductive reasoning only.

.

[BlueSky]

of course.
your question can't be answered except by deductive reasoning only.

.

Which implies that it cannot be 'known' except by reasoning either. So how can we ever say with any certainty that there is a “true self” or a “space” in which we exist within?
We can’t…IMO……and yet that doesn’t mean it isn’t so………………

[shepherd]

Yes, but there has to be a foundation for all of these roles and it cannot be what we see in the mirror because that is just another role.
It seems to make pretty good sense that this foundation can be called “true self” or the “space” in which “you” are played out as a role.
Do you agree?

Is there a foundation? Well I believe so but that doesn't make it true. There are a few processes which take people through various levels of their emotions and it seems to lead to a foundation of peace, freedom, joy or just IS or just being. The common view is that the various emotions which lead to this are clutter but I disagree as I see it as all part of the whole. If the levels leading to the foundation were all the positive ones then this would be labelled the true self but just because they are deemed negative then its labelled otherwise. Yet the negative emotions bring so much fruit to our lives and when viewed that way seem less negative.

IMO, im personally in favour of someone being whole and accepting of themselves as true or whatever label they wish to use instead of chasing something which in reality is neverending and more so when life has quite a variety of up and downs which test us.

[BlueSky]

Is there a foundation? Well I believe so but that doesn't make it true. There are a few processes which take people through various levels of their emotions and it seems to lead to a foundation of peace, freedom, joy or just IS or just being. The common view is that the various emotions which lead to this are clutter but I disagree as I see it as all part of the whole. If the levels leading to the foundation were all the positive ones then this would be labelled the true self but just because they are deemed negative then its labelled otherwise. Yet the negative emotions bring so much fruit to our lives and when viewed that way seem less negative.

IMO, im personally in favour of someone being whole and accepting of themselves as true or whatever label they wish to use instead of chasing something which in reality is neverending and more so when life has quite a variety of up and downs which test us.

I hear ya and I very much agree. I thank you for your thoughts on this. :smile:
Gotta go...thanks again.......James

[hybrid]

Which implies that it cannot be 'known' except by reasoning either.

the observer? yes.
it's irreducible.

So how can we ever say with any certainty that there is a “true self” or a “space” in which we exist within?

start with the "I" (the we you refer to) since it's the only thing we can be sure of.

We can’t…IMO……and yet that doesn’t mean it isn’t so………………

all we can know is that we are not the I we usually think we are.

.

[Neville]

As for me.........It is what I see everywhere...so either I am blind or..........
James

No you are absolutely not blind, I hope. You have simply labelled what you see everywhere.

[hybrid]

Is there a foundation? Well I believe so but that doesn't make it true. There are a few processes which take people through various levels of their emotions and it seems to lead to a foundation of peace, freedom, joy or just IS or just being. The common view is that the various emotions which lead to this are clutter but I disagree as I see it as all part of the whole.
the same thing the true self teaching is pointing to

If the levels leading to the foundation were all the positive ones then this would be labelled the true self but just because they are deemed negative then its labelled otherwise. Yet the negative emotions bring so much fruit to our lives and when viewed that way seem less negative.
you may be misrepresenting the true self teaching here already. negativity is already there for someone. it's not that the true self teaching cause it to appear.

IMO, im personally in favour of someone being whole and accepting of themselves as true or whatever label they wish to use instead of chasing something which in reality is neverending and more so when life has quite a variety of up and downs which test us.
this is the same myth true self teaching is trying to dispel.

.

[hybrid]

No you are absolutely not blind, I hope. You have simply labelled what you see everywhere.
yes! and i hope it is not a bad thing (labeling of what we see that is) as shepherd would like to depict it.
he doesn't want to make judgment on what's inside of us.
which to me is impractical and impossible.
i think this is where the misunderstanding lies.

i think what he really wanted to say is not to condemn one's self.
but making distinction between true self and false self is not by any stretch of imagination a condemnation of one's self.

there is a difference .
discrimination by judgment of certain distinctions is a normal functioning of the mind.. this is the process how we become clear.

.

[Neville]

Hello daz,

Does the energy of beating up one’s wife coincide with what Is felt during the realization of what we are?



I imagine i would feel a terrible shame at such behaviour were it to manifest in me, because it is out of character for me,

But, is it normal for the abuser to abuse? Is the mass murderer, rapist or the genocidal meglomaniac being not their true selves?

[hybrid]

Hello daz,



I imagine i would feel a terrible shame at such behaviour were it to manifest in me, because it is out of character for me,

But, is it normal for the abuser to abuse? Is the mass murderer, rapist or the genocidal meglomaniac being not their true selves?
yes they are not.
i bet that when they die they will laugh at themselves and said how stupid i was in that lifetime. LOL

.

[Neville]

It becomes even more complicated when see people like Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein , Idi Amin sat with a child on their knee or feeding a lamb, perhaps even having affection for little cuddly bunnies.

This entire issue is not as cut and dried and neatly tidied away as we would like it to be.

My contention, however remains pretty much a it was, The adherents to the existence of a true self deep within or indeed without as a collective consciousness implies that this me and indeed the you that you present to the world is false, which in turn questions your authenticity as a rightful member of the creative process. No one should feel like that, you earned your right to be in this part of the creative process ( and the destructive process) of all creation when you emerged from the womb.

People can develop schizophrenia or even multiple personality disorder by accepting that this person is not the real person.

Did anyone see the film Inception? I know it was fiction but the principle was sound enough, Mrs Cobb thought the dream world was more real than this one and so she killed herself. A Melodramatic extreme in hollywoodland, I know. But just how many folks do you here of saying "The voices made me do it"

I freely accept terms like divine self and soul , inner child and higher self , I simply can't get my head around the true self, before as far as I am concerned each of you as an authentic representation of creation in action and in no way false or illusory.

I think I'm done now:D

Delayed post script ( I am at a funny age) Right and wrong, Good and Bad are only what you judge or have been conditioned to judge as right and wrong or good and bad. Some folks love a good thunder storm as it clears the air of it's humidity, the poor SOB that got struck by lightening might have a different opinion though.

[hybrid]

It becomes even more complicated when see people like Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein , Idi Amin sat with a child on their knee or feeding a lamb, perhaps even having affection for little cuddly bunnies.

This entire issue is not as cut and dried and neatly tidied away as we would like it to be.

My contention, however remains pretty much a it was, The adherents to the existence of a true self deep within or indeed without as a collective consciousness implies that this me and indeed the you that you present to the world is false, which in turn questions your authenticity as a rightful member of the creative process. No one should feel like that, you earned your right to be in this part of the creative process ( and the destructive process) of all creation when you emerged from the womb.

People can develop schizophrenia or even multiple personality disorder by accepting that this person is not the real person.

Did anyone see the film Inception? I know it was fiction but the principle was sound enough, Mrs Cobb thought the dream world was more real than this one and so she killed herself. A Melodramatic extreme in hollywoodland, I know. But just how many folks do you here of saying "The voices made me do it"

I freely accept terms like divine self and soul , inner child and higher self , I simply can't get my head around the true self, before as far as I am concerned each of you as an authentic representation of creation in action and in no way false or illusory.

I think I'm done now:D

Delayed post script ( I am at a funny age) Right and wrong, Good and Bad are only what you judge or have been conditioned to judge as right and wrong or good and bad. Some folks lve a good thunder storm as it clears the air of it's humidity, the poor SOB that got struck by lightening might have a different opinion though.
in the same breath that to accept the hitlers as authentic and wholesome is a perversion of sort.

all i can see against the true self teaching is just a misrepresentation.
a straw man argument.
any teaching regardless if wanted to be perverted can be done thru reasoning.
and sadly this is what's happening here.


.

[Neville]

I don't know so much hybrid,

Jack the Ripper was in his mind ridding Whitechapel of Vice, doing as He thought Gods work. Mr Hitler had the interests of his nation at heart with an eye on expansion and world domination perhaps,

It is pervers because you have identified it as perverse. It's easy for us to judge bothe these cases as evil almost demon like individuals. Where does our judgement come from?

Mr Hitler and his political regime was doubtless responsible for the deaths of many innocent souls, which is just plain wrong..Because all those millions of people were human.

I killed Three ants nests of upwartds of a thousand living creatures, OK I know they would have all been dead by winter anyway, so it does'nt matter, I even once killed a wasps nest of thousands of living creatures. Its all OK though because they were not human.

You can only weild the sword of Damocles if you are without sin yourself, so we perhaps should not be speaking of what you yourself has decided as perverted,

I am no whiter than white, Many a poor turkey has bought it for me over 47 Christmasses.

We are what we are, as individuals and collectively..Our True selves.

any teaching regardless if wanted to be perverted can be done thru reasoning.
and sadly this is what's happening here.



That bit saddens me too. We are who we are and are real now.

[hybrid]

I don't know so much hybrid,

Jack the Ripper was in his mind ridding Whitechapel of Vice, doing as He thought Gods work. Mr Hitler had the interests of his nation at heart with an eye on expansion and world domination perhaps,

It is pervers because you have identified it as perverse. It's easy for us to judge bothe these cases as evil almost demon like individuals. Where does our judgement come from?

Mr Hitler and his political regime was doubtless responsible for the deaths of many innocent souls, which is just plain wrong..Because all those millions of people were human.

I killed Three ants nests of upwartds of a thousand living creatures, OK I know they would have all been dead by winter anyway, so it does'nt matter, I even once killed a wasps nest of thousands of living creatures. Its all OK though because they were not human.

You can only weild the sword of Damocles if you are without sin yourself, so we perhaps should not be speaking of what you yourself has decided as perverted,

I am no whiter than white, Many a poor turkey has bought it for me over 47 Christmasses.

We are what we are, as individuals and collectively..Our True selves.


That bit saddens me too. We are who we are and are real now.
it is impossible as humans not to judge. so imo, this non-judgemental attitude towards others people is out of touch with reality. the best we can do is not to go to extremes and avoid prejudging and condemning people. ot should i say judge as accurate as possible. yes there are victims of misjudgment. but this is the best we can do.

on the other hand, true self teaching is not about judging others, it is exclusively an inner work. meaning you deal with your own issues thru self knowledge, this is what i say that this is being taken out of context when the teaching is being use as a yardstick to judge others.

.

[hybrid]

true self teaching can also be equated with

1. know thyself philosophy
2. psychology of self-knowldge
3. simple and practical introspection
4. self-inquiry practice
5. meditation
6. and many other related teaching like self realization, jhanna, self actualization

[Chrysaetos]

But, is it normal for the abuser to abuse? Is the mass murderer, rapist or the genocidal meglomaniac being not their true selves?By logic, if someone is an abuser it is normal to abuse.

The mass murderer, the rapist, and the maniac are themselves at that given moment. How can they not be?
They were not their true self, nor false self. But self operating from an aggressive or abusive quality. The qualities can change or disappear.
But self itself is a dynamic progress which contains qualities. At least that's my view, I'm not buying into the Itchy-Immovable-Object-Hypothesis.

[Neville]

this non-judgemental attitude towards others people is out of touch with reality.

I will bear this in mind the next time i eat some meat, and consider crefully the animal's life that was curtailed so that I could feast on it's flesh....Not

Perhaps thats it, Maybe it's denial on the part of the human race. Pure beings would never hurt anything to suatain themselves or those they care for would they ?

The assertion that there is a true self denotes that there is a degree of dissatisfaction of what and who we are really. I am not at all happy that we should envelope our physical nature with some "Oh it's |OK becaus I am not really like this" hokum.

I really must leave it there, because I recognise that this subject is a use of ny energy in such a way that I am actually explaining that a spade is a spade and I can think of not many other exercises in futility than explaining that things are what they seem to be to a person.

[Neville]

Hello Chrysaetos,

You know the answer.

When you swatted that fly...Where you a murderer?

There is a picture emerging here, We don't like who we are so we say It's not our tue nature, a kind of denial. Your salvation if thats what you seek starts with self acceptance, warts and all.

I am going now....I hope...think....whatever.

[Chrysaetos]

When you swatted that fly...Where you a murderer? Yes. In that moment, that state, it was a normal act to do.
But I may dislike that action based upon my other qualities (like certain ethics) and choose not to do so next time.

There is a picture emerging here, We don't like who we are so we say It's not our tue nature, a kind of denial. Your salvation if thats what you seek starts with self acceptance, warts and all. Yeah and I think that's where the danger lies, in the externalization.

[Neville]

Yes. In that moment, that state, it was a normal act to do.


Thank you.

[hybrid]

I will bear this in mind the next time i eat some meat, and consider crefully the animal's life that was curtailed so that I could feast on it's flesh....Not
your making a judgment call on meat eaters and then you call hitler it is who it is? OMG

Perhaps thats it, Maybe it's denial on the part of the human race. Pure beings would never hurt anything to suatain themselves or those they care for would they ?
nah this is to idealistic.

The assertion that there is a true self denotes that there is a degree of dissatisfaction of what and who we are really. I am not at all happy that we should envelope our physical nature with some "Oh it's |OK becaus I am not really like this" hokum.
well somebody here noticed that the way this true self teaching is misrepresented is like putting the cart before the horse.

it is like this neville, there is a dissatisfaction. period. the dissatisfaction did not come becasue of the true self teaching, iow, the true self teaching is not the cause of dissatisfaction otoh it seek to dispel this dissatisfaction. you reasoned in reverse.

I really must leave it there, because I recognise that this subject is a use of ny energy in such a way that I am actually explaining that a spade is a spade and I can think of not many other exercises in futility than explaining that things are what they seem to be to a person.
perhaps it is energy exhausting to dispel one's method to show that his method is better?

.

[Moonglow]

Hello Neville,

I must say I resonate with what you are expressing in your exchanges here.

I also see that with in us are the shadows and the light.

I think it comes down to how one defines things and whether there is a need to define it at all, perhaps it depends on what one chooses to do with this.

We are what we are. I agree as created to be, this human being.

The true self I would say is as one is being right here, right now.

We are not that much above the other creatures of this Earth, at times we do what one deems necessary to survive or give into our wants. We also do some amazing things that benefits us and the fellow creatures. Both potentials lies with in our true self. Which is this marvelous being we are experiencing.

Just expressing this.

Thanks for the insight

Peace to you.

[shepherd]

yes! and i hope it is not a bad thing (labeling of what we see that is) as shepherd would like to depict it.
he doesn't want to make judgment on what's inside of us.
which to me is impractical and impossible.
i think this is where the misunderstanding lies.

i think what he really wanted to say is not to condemn one's self.
but making distinction between true self and false self is not by any stretch of imagination a condemnation of one's self.

there is a difference .
discrimination by judgment of certain distinctions is a normal functioning of the mind.. this is the process how we become clear.
Labels can be unhelpful Hybrid, I spend my days unweaving them from clients who have been judged by themselves and others for their behaviour which wasn't their fault.

Judgements and labels will happen, I havnt said that they should be removed, what I am saying is that they are part of the whole. and by the whole I refer to the self. You can call it true self, original self whatever.

You are right about self condemnation but it is useful at the start of any transformation / evolving process but if held onto then it stagnates the energy of change.

To be clear where I stand, IMO there is no true self to be obtained or false self to lose, we are always the true self ( the whole ) evolving , learning and transforming as we grow, there is no end to that as far as I can tell. It does seem like we are on the same page but use different language to say the same thing. As a note I don't use the term true self for me, I use the term self, if a client wants to use the term true self and identifies with that then I go with that.

[Moonglow]

Hello,

Thought I would add that exploring the self I don't find to be a waste of time if that is what one wishes to do at the present time.

Many things have been discovered by self exploration. Science does it as well.

[hybrid]

To be clear where I stand, IMO there is no true self to be obtained or false self to lose, we are always the true self ( the whole ) evolving , learning and transforming as we grow, there is no end to that as far as I can tell. It does seem like we are on the same page but use different language to say the same thing. As a note I don't use the term true self for me, I use the term self, if a client wants to use the term true self and identifies with that then I go with that.
yes same thing different direction.
you're talking about self expression while i am talking about self exploration.

.

[Equinox]

True self?

It seems some members are chasing a goal to be their true selves through various practises. You can see this on various threads where some members even gloat over others with surperiority as their meditational or spiritual ways have led them to now being their true self.

Which is what exactly?

Is this another ploy to get people to not accept who they are right now, this very moment as being true regardless of judgement from themselves and others through conditioning of what is supposed to be spiritual.

Joy, happiness, zen like behaviour? Is this really the true self or is just who you are right now which is ever evolving...the true self you had all along?

There is a danger too which comes with trying to be this spiritual zen like person and that is it has to be maintained and as we know, life isnt like that as it comes with dips, bumps and highs and lows and suppressing how you feel in favour of being spiritual has consequences which just creates anxiety and stress.

Is chasing the idea of a "true self" fruitless? Maybe not as the intention to be better in someway helps us evolve but there has to be a level of acceptance with who you are right now doesnt there?

Would love your thoughts on this elusive true self :wink:

The mere idea of claiming you have found the true self is nothing short of ridiculous. Your right Shepherd: its an evolving process.

[hybrid]

The mere idea of claiming you have found the true self is nothing short of ridiculous. Your right Shepherd: its an evolving process.

inner exploration is part of the evolving process.

[Gem]

The mere idea of claiming you have found the true self is nothing short of ridiculous. Your right Shepherd: its an evolving process.

Why is Sheperd right? Is it because you believe this to be so?

I think people are refering to self realization, and I don't see that excludes exploration or evolution.

Maybe the other bloke and Shepherd are right.

[Gem]

If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.

It's probably worth considering that people hope that is true, but saying it is mere rambling, only words to convey the richness of the speaker's experience,earned and 'spiritual superiority' is what makes one a messenger.

I was subject to this kind of statement and almost believed it was true, it's lucky I didn't, and since then I learned that he who says 'you' is making comparisons to see 'you' and 'me' greater.

I never believe what others say about me.

[Gem]

If someone says, "There's more purity and depth of love in you than you now know, and you can discover and experience it" this is not spiritual superiority, but simply giving a message.

It's probably worth considering that people hope that is true, but the words to convey the richness of the speaker's experience, and 'spiritual superiority' is what makes one a messenger.

I was subject to this kind of statement and almost believed it was true, it's lucky I didn't, and since then I learned that he who says 'you' is making comparisons to see 'you' in lesser love and 'me' in greater.

I never believe what others say about me.

[Gem]

..............................

[God-Like]

Hello daz,



I imagine i would feel a terrible shame at such behaviour were it to manifest in me, because it is out of character for me,

But, is it normal for the abuser to abuse? Is the mass murderer, rapist or the genocidal meglomaniac being not their true selves?


Hi Mate

because it is out of character

This Is a great point Indeed.

The thing Is Nev, Is that you cannot express your true self / what you are whilst "In character" because any character reference any character related behaviour Is of the ordinary mind.

A true and total expression of what we are Is not of the ordinary thinking mind..

A man that beats his wife has no clarity of mind, no peace of mind no self love.. When an Individual has these energies within their self they are confined to the lower mind - hence cannot be In expression of their true self..

x daz x

[Equinox]

inner exploration is part of the evolving process.

Yes, good point.

I suppose we could say that the inner/silent self that we notice when the mind is completely silent is the true self.

But I was really referring to the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of this awareness in the real world.

Perhaps the spirit is perfect but a human can never be perfect.

Thats what I believe anyway.

[hybrid]

Yes, good point.

I suppose we could say that the inner/silent self that we notice when the mind is completely silent is the true self.

But I was really referring to the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of this awareness in the real world.

Perhaps the spirit is perfect but a human can never be perfect.

Thats what I believe anyway.

the practical application is the resolution of one's existential crisis.

[Greenslade]

A man that beats his wife has no clarity of mind, no peace of mind no self love.. When an Individual has these energies within their self they are confined to the lower mind - hence cannot be In expression of their true self..

Beyond the judgement of right and wrong, good and evil, a man beating his wife is of his True Self - and hers. Their True Selves, while in Spirit, agreed to have this experience. It was agreed that the woman needed the experience of being beaten up and all of that which comes from it. In order to have that experience, the man would have - as Spirit - agreed to participate in that experience for his own growth. When they became incarnate they went through that experience as already agreed by the True Self - they fulfilled their karmic obligations. If you take the concept of good and bad into the equation and decide that after having made the agreement and he decides it is wrong to beat his wife and doesn't, what happens with karma? The man doesn't beat his wife, neither have that experience and as such does karma come into play? Or is karma just another word for judgement?

The true Self, the Higher Self - whatever expression you want to use - operates in a dimensions above the third, this physical plane. The human mind operates in the third and can only deal effectively with what's going on in this dimension. They are not separate, they are as much a part of our being as our arms and legs. Beating his wife is in character - as far as the True Self goes - for him. Being kind and generous - if that's what he is with his wife - is in character as well because that is the karmic obligation and the experience they both agreed upon before becoming incarnate.

You are already your Higher Self, or at least a part of what your whole, complete being is. Your True Self and your mind are already doing what they were designed to do.

[NightSpirit]

All is concepts..including true self...if one tries for one moment to simply let go of all concepts, one is left with nothing.

[Gem]

All is concepts..including true self...if one tries for one moment to simply let go of all concepts, one is left with nothing.

Well thats right, and there is no truth behind a statement like 'what we really are', so what is being refered to is 'self realization'... 'self', not some other bloke's flowery conjecture.

[psychoslice]

All is concepts..including true self...if one tries for one moment to simply let go of all concepts, one is left with nothing.
Sounds beautiful to me.:hug3:

[Equinox]

Why is Sheperd right? Is it because you believe this to be so?

I think people are refering to self realization, and I don't see that excludes exploration or evolution.

Maybe the other bloke and Shepherd are right.

What does it mean to be self realized?

Sounds like a relative concept to me. Sure we can all heal, release and change our attitudes and behaviours in many positive ways but why put labels on things? Where do you draw the line? There is no dividing line. Words like "God-realization" and "enlightenment" are simply just motivational descriptions to help us realise that life can be much better and easier if we do lots of meditation and spiritual work.

[NightSpirit]

Once again...gem and equinox...these are only concepts. there is no need for meditation, spiritual work, self-realisation, self or whatever....but then we wouldn't have an sf forum either if we were to let these all go. lol

[Gem]

What does it mean to be self realized?

Sounds like a relative concept to me. Sure we can all heal, release and change our attitudes and behaviours in many positive ways but why put labels on things? Where do you draw the line? There is no dividing line. Words like "God-realization" and "enlightenment" are simply just motivational descriptions to help us realise that life can be much better and easier if we do lots of meditation and spiritual work.

I couldn't say what self realization mean, but I feel those words express the phenomena best.

It doesn't exclude healing, evolving, developement... or any aspect of change.

The mind tends to reach into the future and think 'I must heal all this stuff to be happy', and that is actually the carrot on the stick, because you are not in the future.

You are here just as you are, the past you is in your memory, the future you is in your imaginatoin, but you really are here now...

:smile:

[God-Like]

Beyond the judgement of right and wrong, good and evil, a man beating his wife is of his True Self - and hers. Their True Selves, while in Spirit, agreed to have this experience. It was agreed that the woman needed the experience of being beaten up and all of that which comes from it. In order to have that experience, the man would have - as Spirit - agreed to participate in that experience for his own growth. When they became incarnate they went through that experience as already agreed by the True Self - they fulfilled their karmic obligations. If you take the concept of good and bad into the equation and decide that after having made the agreement and he decides it is wrong to beat his wife and doesn't, what happens with karma? The man doesn't beat his wife, neither have that experience and as such does karma come into play? Or is karma just another word for judgement?

The true Self, the Higher Self - whatever expression you want to use - operates in a dimensions above the third, this physical plane. The human mind operates in the third and can only deal effectively with what's going on in this dimension. They are not separate, they are as much a part of our being as our arms and legs. Beating his wife is in character - as far as the True Self goes - for him. Being kind and generous - if that's what he is with his wife - is in character as well because that is the karmic obligation and the experience they both agreed upon before becoming incarnate.

You are already your Higher Self, or at least a part of what your whole, complete being is. Your True Self and your mind are already doing what they were designed to do.

Hi Green

Beyond the judgement of right and wrong, good and evil, a man beating his wife is of his True Self - and hers.

I haven’t responded to what Is a right or a wrong action regarding a man beating up his wife. I have mentioned the ordinary mind state attached to these actions which Is not a reflection of what the the true or higher self Is. How we react to emotional stress by beating someone up Is not expressing what we are. It Is a result from how an Individual feels and how an Individual expresses those feelings.

Do you see Masters going around beating their disciples? I would say a true Master would do no such thing. This is because he/she lives In accordance to one’s true nature - one’s true self.

Yes your right about experience and karma to some extent playing Its self out In life but whilst an Individual has karma to work out within the physical life experience they are not In total expression of what they are because there will still be attachments to guilts, resentments, and judgements to work through.

Karma Is Is not really about tit for tat. A man that beats his wife up In a previous life doesn’t have to get beaten up In a similar fashion In this life time. Which Individual has learn’t more from that experience. The man that started the beating or the man that threw the last punch? Turning the other cheek Is most difficult lol.

The true Self, the Higher Self - whatever expression you want to use - operates in a dimensions above the third, this physical plane

I don’t see It that way for example the term God-In-Man Implies that what we are can be expressed In physical experience. I would say this Is extremely rare because the Individual needs to transcend the ordinary mind whilst functioning In 3d. That’s why the 3d life experience can be seen as an illusion to God-In-Man because the ordinary mind keeps us In conditioning and keeps us In false Identities.

You are already your Higher Self, or at least a part of what your whole, complete being is.

I agree we can only be what we are - call It our true self our higher self that Is not In question.

What Is In question Is - Is the beating up of someone’s a true expression of what we are?

I would say not.

x daz x

[Chrysaetos]

Do you see Masters going around beating their disciples? I would say a true Master would do no such thing. This is because he/she lives In accordance to one’s true nature - one’s true self.
What is ''true nature'' anyway? Isn't all that exists by default true nature?

You are seeking order out of chaos..

People think they experience ''karma'' only because they have injected this belief in the mind. Is it karma that people die in an earthquake? Is it karma that the wife gets beaten? If so, it is justifiable. These ideas are not universal but cultural. It would be ridiculous to suggest (I mean this generally) one culture knows more about unproven magics than another culture.
What Is In question Is - Is the beating up of someone’s a true expression of what we are?I would say not.
Yet it happened.
So we can blame it on the mind or the ego, but in the end all we're left with is the idea that ''God'' created that too so who is to blame?

[NightSpirit]

What is ''true nature'' anyway? Isn't all that exists by default true nature?

You are seeking order out of chaos..

People think they experience ''karma'' only because they have injected this belief in the mind. Is it karma that people die in an earthquake? Is it karma that the wife gets beaten? If so, it is justifiable. These ideas are not universal but cultural. It would be ridiculous to suggest (I mean this generally) one culture knows more about unproven magics than another culture.

Yet it happened.
So we can blame it on the mind or the ego, but in the end all we're left with is the idea that ''God'' created that too so who is to blame?

For once, I agree with what you say here Chrysaetos :D

[God-Like]

What is ''true nature'' anyway? Isn't all that exists by default true nature?

You are seeking order out of chaos..

People think they experience ''karma'' only because they have injected this belief in the mind. Is it karma that people die in an earthquake? Is it karma that the wife gets beaten? If so, it is justifiable. These ideas are not universal but cultural. It would be ridiculous to suggest (I mean this generally) one culture knows more about unproven magics than another culture.

Yet it happened.
So we can blame it on the mind or the ego, but in the end all we're left with is the idea that ''God'' created that too so who is to blame?

What is ''true nature'' anyway? Isn't all that exists by default true nature?

When there Is a realization of what you are then our true nature will become you It will be revealed to you - you will remember what you already know.

You will not beat your wife up once you have realized the self because that would be a backward step so to speak because you will be seeing the wife within you. Why beat your self up?

x daz x

[shepherd]

you're talking about self expression while i am talking about self exploration.

I am all for self exploration but not if the goal is to find something they all ready are. I am my true self each and everyday and through self exploration I am discovering more about my true self, but not discovering my true self. It's like living in the UK and saying that I am going to search for the UK when in fact I am exploring the UK.

By exploring ourselves or just by living life we can have self realisations which can shape us and change our paths. I think self realisation is being confused with finding this true self as self realisations feel wonderful and enlightening which is just our evolving process anyway.

[God-Like]

Yet it happened.

So we can blame it on the mind or the ego, but in the end all we're left with is the idea that ''God'' created that too so who is to blame?

Lol - You cannot blame anything for our actions..

Our Individual actions are of our own doings - they are our own responsibility..

x daz x

[hybrid]

that sorts it out. :)

[NightSpirit]

I am all for self exploration but not if the goal is to find something they all ready are. I am my true self each and everyday and through self exploration I am discovering more about my true self, but not discovering my true self. It's like living in the UK and saying that I am going to search for the UK when in fact I am exploring the UK.

By exploring ourselves or just by living life we can have self realisations which can shape us and change our paths. I think self realisation is being confused with finding this true self as self realisations feel wonderful and enlightening which is just our evolving process anyway.

You can live in UK, search for UK or explore UK...all at the same time...regardless, this is a path of self-discovery and is subject to whatever the eye of the beholder gets from it. We still form opinions on all of these to come to a conclusion of a sort. I believe we can only live in each moment and each moment is made up of what we experience in that moment..then that moment becomes the past...and we have another moment which is different again. So how can one ever discover the 'true self'? It's only in the moment IMO. Even self realisation changes for me.

[Greenslade]

Hi Daz


Do you see Masters going around beating their disciples? I would say a true Master would do no such thing. This is because he/she lives In accordance to one’s true nature - one’s true self.

That would be in accordance with his true self. His true self is being the Master, and I doubt beating disciples is conducive to teaching them.


What Is In question Is - Is the beating up of someone’s a true expression of what we are?
x daz x
I believe it is. I believe it's a part of what we choose to experience that was 'initiated' by the true self then left for the rest to through. I believe that our experiences in Life are chosen by the true self because that is what our true self needs to experience. I don't believe it's an expression as such, I believe it's true self engaging in that experience for whatever reason.


So we can blame it on the mind or the ego, but in the end all we're left with is the idea that ''God'' created that too so who is to blame?
Ourselves, because that is what we chose to experience.


You will not beat your wife up once you have realized the self because that would be a backward step so to speak because you will be seeing the wife within you. Why beat your self up?
x daz x
There may well be something to gain in beating yourself up - people do it all the time :-) The good thing about beating your head against a brick wall? It feels good when you stop, and this search or quest for the true self might well produce the same results.

[Chrysaetos]

You will not beat your wife up once you have realized the self because that would be a backward step so to speak because you will be seeing the wife within you. Why beat your self up?
Do you claim to be perfect, without mistakes and errors?

Dualism. You might argue that it's not but as long as you believe in karma and true and false selves you do.
Lol - You cannot blame anything for our actions..
Our Individual actions are of our own doings - they are our own responsibility..According to your previous post the individual does not exist.

[God-Like]

Hi Daz


That would be in accordance with his true self. His true self is being the Master, and I doubt beating disciples is conducive to teaching them.


I believe it is. I believe it's a part of what we choose to experience that was 'initiated' by the true self then left for the rest to through. I believe that our experiences in Life are chosen by the true self because that is what our true self needs to experience. I don't believe it's an expression as such, I believe it's true self engaging in that experience for whatever reason.


Ourselves, because that is what we chose to experience.


There may well be something to gain in beating yourself up - people do it all the time :-) The good thing about beating your head against a brick wall? It feels good when you stop, and this search or quest for the true self might well produce the same results.

Hi Green

That would be in accordance with his true self. His true self is being the Master, and I doubt beating disciples is conducive to teaching them.

Ahh Green that Is the common mistake. There Is no his self - your self - my self In that respect. There Is only self. Individual selves are one and the same.

A master that has realized the self realizes the same self that we all are. Individuality just allows Individual realizations to occur. A masters true nature would be greenslades nature as well as God-Likes.

I believe it is. I believe it's a part of what we choose to experience that was 'initiated' by the true self then left for the rest to through. I believe that our experiences in Life are chosen by the true self because that is what our true self needs to experience. I don't believe it's an expression as such, I believe it's true self engaging in that experience for whatever reason.

As mentioned an Individual that has realized the self will have transcended karma and the ordinary mind that’s full of tit for tat emotions, guilts resentments because what we are Is beyond all of this. The love the peace the oneness that’s realized within realization Is the energy of what we are. So how can fear, violence, judgement be an expression then of what we are? Love and peace etc, Is expressed through our true nature.

There may well be something to gain in beating yourself up - people do it all the time :-) The good thing about beating your head against a brick wall? It feels good when you stop, and this search or quest for the true self might well produce the same results.

I understand the philosophy of beating your self up lol.

But when the love and peace becomes you there Is bliss and contentment, there Is acceptance that all Is well all Is perfecto “because all Is well and perfecto" that’s because you are being yourself and your not under the illusions and Influences as to what you think you are via the conditioned mind..

x daz x

[shepherd]

So how can one ever discover the 'true self'? It's only in the moment IMO. Even self realisation changes for me.

How very true and nicely pointed out.

[Ivy]

So perhaps, when people read the thread....they can realise that 'true self' or even 'seeking the true self' is simply an expression.

The meaning given to that expression is given by the individual.

For one it may be a help in the context of their lives....for another it may be a hinderence.

There seems to me, no merit in discussing a word, a concept or belief through generalisations or in terms of right way/wrong way. Because life and language are not about what appears on the surface.

The word itself is not the way....it is the interpretation and personal reflection upon the word that is being experienced.

To one, to follow Gods way means to nurture, to another it means to kill. If you take away the word God...one will still find reason to nurture...and the other will still find reason to kill.

This is more relevant when one talks of concepts...because a concept such as seeking the true self, is easily transposed onto a miriad of other concepts...across the fields of both psychology, religion and spirituality. And beneath them all lies the fundemental conceptualisation of better/worse, right way/wrong way.

To challenge this is not to single out particular words...but to challenge the very essence of there being any right way/wrong way at all.

[God-Like]

Do you claim to be perfect, without mistakes and errors?

Dualism. You might argue that it's not but as long as you believe in karma and true and false selves you do.
According to your previous post the individual does not exist.

Do you claim to be perfect, without mistakes and errors?

Nope can’t say that I am. Can’t say that I have said that I am. I have spent many years In sadness due to past life actions

Dualism. You might argue that it's not but as long as you believe in karma and true and false selves you do.

Dualism and karma play a part In one’s journey - In one’s physical life experience, just as illusions do. And whilst I have physical eyes I can see the dual aspect of night and day It won’t stop an Individual from expressing what they are cos there experiencing life In duality mode.

To have an understanding of how karma plays apart In ones journey will help one transcend the karmic wheel’s Influence.

According to your previous post the individual does not exist.

There Is no edit button today lol. I meant to say you cannot blame anything / anyone outside of ourselves for our actions.

x daz x

[shepherd]

So perhaps, when people read the thread....they can realise that 'true self' or even 'seeking the true self' is simply an expression.


To challenge this is not to single out particular words...but to challenge the very essence of there being any right way/wrong way at all.

I agree.

The intention behind the original post was to point out how the word true self was being used and in some cases it was being used to look down on other members who apparently were not being their true selves due to different perspectives, not agreeing with other members or writing in a an apparent certain attitude. The other one that gets thrown at members is that they are being egoic. It's turning into a way of trying to be superior through the use of spiritual jargon.

The other intention was for members to have a look at how they view the term true self, there have been plenty of perspectives to choose from and maybe plenty more to explore.

The last intention was the perspective which has been mentioned a few times by various members that it's ok to be who you are right now, whatever you are experiencing. Could accepting yourself right now help with the frustration of trying to be something that may be a pipe dream created by well meaning gurus but acutally unrealistic due to natural human nature?

In another thread, I've been told that I've probably not experienced unconditional love and the mere fact I asked about that was egoic. Ego, judgement and conditional were things to be free from. This reminds me of the true self and how it can be viewed. Are some members really trying to be the spiritual guru like God in order to be happy?

What's so wrong with now?

[Chrysaetos]

Dualism and karma play a part In one’s journey - In one’s physical life experience, just as illusions do. And whilst I have physical eyes I can see the dual aspect of night and day It won’t stop an Individual from expressing what they are cos there experiencing life In duality mode. What kind of duality are we talking about?
Day and night is are common sense and observable.
I meant to say you cannot blame anything / anyone outside of ourselves for our actions.Maybe so. Or maybe not..

Those who believe in two things (higher self-lower self, soul-matter) have a tendency to blame the lower self for problems while idolizing the other, failing to see the ''lower'' influences the ''higher''. And there is the problem of the existence of why there is a ''lower'' to begin with. All what the idea of ''higher'' and ''lower'', karma and bliss, really points at, is a blissful God that committed suicide at his own peril.

The ''karmic wheel'', as you eloquently put it, is based on ideas without a strong foundation.

[God-Like]

What kind of duality are we talking about?
Day and night is are common sense and observable.
Maybe so. Or maybe not..

Those who believe in two things (higher self-lower self, soul-matter) have a tendency to blame the lower self for problems while idolizing the other, failing to see the ''lower'' influences the ''higher''. And there is the problem of the existence of why there is a ''lower'' to begin with. All what the idea of ''higher'' and ''lower'', karma and bliss, really points at, is a blissful God that committed suicide at his own peril.

The ''karmic wheel'', as you eloquently put it, is based on ideas without a strong foundation.

What kind of duality are we talking about?
Day and night is are common sense and observable.

You mentioned dualism for some reason In one your responses (Dualism. You might argue that it's not but as long as you believe in karma and true and false selves you do) - All I mentioned was that experiencing duality doesn’t stop an Individual expressing their true selves, night and day - light and dark - Inner self, outer self, lower self, higher self or whatever being examples of duality. An individual will still be able to express themselves regardless.


Those who believe in two things (higher self-lower self, soul-matter) have a tendency to blame the lower self for problems while idolizing the other, failing to see the ''lower'' influences the ''higher''. And there is the problem of the existence of why there is a ''lower'' to begin with. All what the idea of ''higher'' and ''lower'', karma and bliss, really points at, is a blissful God that committed suicide at his own peril.

I would say many blame lower aspects of themselves, Or that their Ego was to strong lol many blame their partners or their parents for their own miseries but It’s not how It Is.

The ''karmic wheel'', as you eloquently put it, is based on ideas without a strong foundation.

I suppose It’s down to the Individual what they want to believe regarding karma, I don’t tend to speak about It often but what I have realized Is that what goes around comes around, perhaps not like for like as such, but through understanding my own past life times and actions I made during those life times I have understood why I have felt the way I have felt because of these actions made. What I have also understood was partly the reason as to why I am In service to others In this lifetime to balance out the energies.

x daz x

[Shabda]

i think everyone is correct, all at the same time, but what do i know?? lol

[BlueSky]

i think everyone is correct, all at the same time, but what do i know?? lol

Yes.........Can you please tell that to the world's religious leaders? :smile:

[sound]

True self?


Would love your thoughts on this elusive true self :wink:
Hi Shep :)
For me, when I experience inner harmony is when I feel most 'truest' lol ... when my thoughts and feelings don't conflict and I dont feel any angst towards myself or anyone else ... when I smile spontaneously ... it isn't about anything in particular ... :hug3:

[shepherd]

For me, when I experience inner harmony is when I feel most 'truest' lol ... when my thoughts and feelings don't conflict and I dont feel any angst towards myself or anyone else ... when I smile spontaneously ... it isn't about anything in particular

Sounds just lovely.

[Ivy]

I agree.

The intention behind the original post was to point out how the word true self was being used and in some cases it was being used to look down on other members who apparently were not being their true selves due to different perspectives

Its worth considering, that where you are percieving a person as looking down on others, I may percieve that person as being afraid of being looked down on themselves....perhaps they have not yet found the ideal way of expressing themselves or perhaps they over-compensate for their fears. But that person deserves as much, if not more compassion, than any other.

not agreeing with other members or writing in a an apparent certain attitude. The other one that gets thrown at members is that they are being egoic. It's turning into a way of trying to be superior through the use of spiritual jargon.

Again, perhaps. But I havn't seen these threads, so whilst you are thinking of something quite specific to how you have understood an individual situation...I can only read this thread as a generalisation. When I use the word ego, I am talking of self-image/self-perception...now that may equally be an ego of inferiority as it might be an ego of superiority. I believe in the Oxford dictionary ego is self or self esteem. It is the word egotism that refers to concietedness. But without seeing the individual threads that you are refering to, I cannot say whether I agree or not with your perception of them.

The other intention was for members to have a look at how they view the term true self, there have been plenty of perspectives to choose from and maybe plenty more to explore.

This would have been a simpler intention....you might just have asked that question by itself.

The last intention was the perspective which has been mentioned a few times by various members that it's ok to be who you are right now, whatever you are experiencing. Could accepting yourself right now help with the frustration of trying to be something that may be a pipe dream created by well meaning gurus but acutally unrealistic due to natural human nature?

lol, sorry (I'll probably get in trouble for this) but I reckon as a 'lifedoctor/therapist' you'd be out of business if people were go accepting theyre ok as they are (humour)

In another thread, I've been told that I've probably not experienced unconditional love and the mere fact I asked about that was egoic. Ego, judgement and conditional were things to be free from. This reminds me of the true self and how it can be viewed. Are some members really trying to be the spiritual guru like God in order to be happy?

That is their problem. But if others are upset by it, then that is a challenge in their own lives....something for them to find the tools within themselves to deal with it. And in doing so, it just may be that what appeared to them as a devil...turns out to the angel that will free them.

What's so wrong with now?

[Kapitan_Prien]

I can relate to this from Sound about 'the truest':

when my thoughts and feelings don't conflict and I dont feel any angst towards myself

It's been rather hard considering my situation (as a 'walk-in' with clearing things out) although I've been doing what I can to help myself.

[shepherd]

Its worth considering, that where you are percieving a person as looking down on others, I may percieve that person as being afraid of being looked down on themselves....perhaps they have not yet found the ideal way of expressing themselves or perhaps they over-compensate for their fears. But that person deserves as much, if not more compassion, than any other.
Compassion comes in many forms, sometimes its harsh and sometimes its warmer. There are many reasons why someone can look down on another and some are quite valid especially when someone is caught up in a pattern of getting people to treat them as if there is something wrong with them. If a client does this then I am often quite harsh as this knocks them out of the pattern of behaviour which is fed by warm compassion which they have always had. Clients will often try to elevate me or get me to treat them as lower and if there is something wrong. I will tell them what they are doing and the progress made after that can be really healthy.


It is the word egotism that refers to concietedness. But without seeing the individual threads that you are refering to, I cannot say whether I agree or not with your perception of them.
I am not going to point to any thread or member in particular as this isnt about that, its just about raising an awareness of this and then people can do what they want with it. I made it generalised on purpose.


This would have been a simpler intention....you might just have asked that question by itself.

I am not you Heather and I did it at the moment the best way my mind knew how, thats acceptance of just what happened. In another moment I may do something differently.


lol, sorry (I'll probably get in trouble for this) but I reckon as a 'lifedoctor/therapist' you'd be out of business if people were go accepting theyre ok as they are (humour)
LOL...actually a big part of my therapy is helping people realise that they are ok as they are. The biggest battle they often face is the fight within, which makes for an exhausted, anxious and depressed person. I don't treat my clients as if there is something wrong with them as that just feeds the story that there is and keeps them in that cycle of behaviour.

That is their problem. But if others are upset by it, then that is a challenge in their own lives....something for them to find the tools within themselves to deal with it. And in doing so, it just may be that what appeared to them as a devil...turns out to the angel that will free them.
Of course its there problem, all I offer is another perspective, the objections to that perspective help people work out if its for them or not. So I always appreciate people objecting to what I write about. I don't know the truth and will challenge people with their objections but only to see if it stands up and what gets said next. I only find it gets out of hand when it gets personal which is the next tactic when objections crumble. For example I was accused in this thread of saying things I didnt so it would make me look bad to other members. It was a nice try but it failed when they couldnt point to where I made the statements. LOL...its just like the media with sensational headlines but no actual story to give it substance.

[Kapitan_Prien]

Shepherd: The biggest battle they often face is the fight within, which makes for an exhausted, anxious and depressed person.

That's me right there ^

[shepherd]

Shepherd: The biggest battle they often face is the fight within, which makes for an exhausted, anxious and depressed person.

That's me right there ^

Well you are among millions Kapitan Prien all doing that on various levels, but what will you do about it?

[Ivy]

I am not you Heather and I did it at the moment the best way my mind knew how, thats acceptance of just what happened. In another moment I may do something differently.





Ofcourse, and I took the abuse for offering my hand....not because I think you inferior, but because I feel there is a healthier way.

[Kapitan_Prien]

Re Shepherd: I don't know...quite frankly. I've been trying to take care of myself the best I can...but my life needs some major changes. Being in a relationship would help immensely on many levels.

[Shabda]

Yes.........Can you please tell that to the world's religious leaders? :smile:

ive tried...its funny how little most of them listen though isnt it?? :D

[shepherd]

Ofcourse, and I took the abuse for offering my hand....not because I think you inferior, but because I feel there is a healthier way.

For I am sure your way looks healthier but its your way and also its the way its offered too. But lets not get into that, I enjoyed your last few posts so thank you for that.

Re Shepherd: I don't know...quite frankly. I've been trying to take care of myself the best I can...but my life needs some major changes. Being in a relationship would help immensely on many levels.

Maybe the first step could be a commitment to stop fighting yourself so often? Your limbic system (emotional centre) sounds very aroused which is a result of the stress from the inner fight. Looking at all ways to help your mind become more calmer and more relaxed can help your limbic stop being so vigilant and slow down your mind / thought processes. I don't know what you else you are experiencing but a calmer mind would help you make the next set of decisions to continue your journey.

[7luminaries]

What kind of duality are we talking about?
Day and night is are common sense and observable.

You mentioned dualism for some reason In one your responses (Dualism. You might argue that it's not but as long as you believe in karma and true and false selves you do) - All I mentioned was that experiencing duality doesn’t stop an Individual expressing their true selves, night and day - light and dark - Inner self, outer self, lower self, higher self or whatever being examples of duality. An individual will still be able to express themselves regardless.


Those who believe in two things (higher self-lower self, soul-matter) have a tendency to blame the lower self for problems while idolizing the other, failing to see the ''lower'' influences the ''higher''. And there is the problem of the existence of why there is a ''lower'' to begin with. All what the idea of ''higher'' and ''lower'', karma and bliss, really points at, is a blissful God that committed suicide at his own peril.

I would say many blame lower aspects of themselves, Or that their Ego was to strong lol many blame their partners or their parents for their own miseries but It’s not how It Is.

The ''karmic wheel'', as you eloquently put it, is based on ideas without a strong foundation.

I suppose It’s down to the Individual what they want to believe regarding karma, I don’t tend to speak about It often but what I have realized Is that what goes around comes around, perhaps not like for like as such, but through understanding my own past life times and actions I made during those life times I have understood why I have felt the way I have felt because of these actions made. What I have also understood was partly the reason as to why I am In service to others In this lifetime to balance out the energies.

x daz x

Very interesting discussion. I like that on the True Self thread...this convo is dealing with the guts of it IMO...because for me, the true self is all about these issues mentioned...


- integrating body & soul..mind & spirit -- this is our joint task...all of us sentients existing here in the material planes...

- becoming aware of who I am, transcendent (spirit) & in the world (intention, thought, action) -- a life-long process...but as Socrates said, the unexamined life is not worth living.

- accepting full responsibility for who I am -- as we are all aspects of the Divine..then no one can ever control our spirits...our souls...this is an illusion...and we can truly free our "minds" of it...

- understanding karma and how to transmute it -- in many spiritual traditions this is a profound and far-reaching aspect of healing the self and healing the world..


I'll just say...there was a lot of talk on karma...whatever you call it, many of us (unfortunately...) do recall something of past lives. As AndrewG put it once...pretty much the usual stories of shame, abandonment, and utter failure (LOL...classic). But as God-Like said, you don't have to repeat the past. You may find yourself in similar, but as he mentioned, you don't have to beat your wife again, or whatever. This time, you can choose a different ending...one with more love spread around.

I'm going to venture that 99% of the time, there's a common theme. We didn't say (or do or be) whatever we needed to, in order to let the ones we love know we loved them. We failed in some way. We couldn't let them know, for some reason. But that never changes does it?

We don't even need to remember past lives if we just learn this lesson...let those you love know how you feel..in whatever way speaks to your hearts. In healing the scars on our souls, we bring wholeness and light into our hearts and let our true selves emerge.

So here's to healing the world...one person at a time..starting with ourselves and those we love.
Cheers!
7L

[A19White]

To me my true self is the observer of my thoughts feelings and actions. When i am still i know my true self.

[shepherd]

So here's to healing the world...one person at a time..starting with ourselves and those we love.
Cheers!

Do we need healing? Something that I am working on and exploring is the idea that there is something wrong with us hence the need to find the true self, be healed, be better etc.

What if you are as you are right this very moment and that there is nothing wrong with you to better or to find?

Would you believe it?

[hybrid]

Do we need healing? Something that I am working on and exploring is the idea that there is something wrong with us hence the need to find the true self, be healed, be better etc.

What if you are as you are right this very moment and that there is nothing wrong with you to better or to find?

Would you believe it?

tell that to the addict.

.

[shepherd]

tell that to the addict.

Some of the strongest research on addictions shows that when a person is labelled and addict that this has a negative psychological affect on changing their habits and can make it harder to move forward.

The same is applies to food or niccotine addictions too, just the mere presence of the word makes it seem like too hard work to change.

[Gem]

So we can blame it on the mind or the ego, but in the end all we're left with is the idea that ''God'' created that too so who is to blame?

Bob Dylan.

:smile:

[Kapitan_Prien]

^ *laughs*.... :D

[Gem]

Some of the strongest research on addictions shows that when a person is labelled and addict that this has a negative psychological affect on changing their habits and can make it harder to move forward.

The same is applies to food or niccotine addictions too, just the mere presence of the word makes it seem like too hard work to change.

There is addiction though, so hybrid's point stands.

[hybrid]

Some of the strongest research on addictions shows that when a person is labelled and addict that this has a negative psychological affect on changing their habits and can make it harder to move forward.

The same is applies to food or niccotine addictions too, just the mere presence of the word makes it seem like too hard work to change.

yeah that is the complexities of an affliction called addiction, but you always make it sound that by stopping labeling the healing will happen,

the point is it is not. the addiction is not caused by labeling. maybe exacerbated. addictions are real problems and in need of real healing. it is not what you think as a psychosomatic disease that exist only in the mind of an addict.

.

[Gem]

yeah that is the complexities of an affliction called addiction, but you always make it sound that by stopping labeling the healing will happen,

the point is it is not. the addiction is not caused by labeling. maybe exacerbated. addictions are real problems and in need of real healing. it is not what you think as a psychosomatic disease that exist only in the mind of an addict.

.

I stopped drinking and doing drugs after a long addiction to them.

[hybrid]

Do we need healing? Something that I am working on and exploring is the idea that there is something wrong with us hence the need to find the true self, be healed, be better etc.

What if you are as you are right this very moment and that there is nothing wrong with you to better or to find?

Would you believe it?

to a mentally and psychologically challenged, perhaps your are right, the idea of true self can be harmful than helpful to such an individual.

so the exploration of true self within should be done by mentally stable people who is just curious as to the nature of themselves.

.

[sound]

yeah that is the complexities of an affliction called addiction, but you always make it sound that by stopping labeling the healing will happen,

the point is it is not. the addiction is not caused by labeling. maybe exacerbated. addictions are real problems and in need of real healing. it is not what you think as a psychosomatic disease that exist only in the mind of an addict.

.
It works for the same reason that we tell ourselves we are not our thoughts ... or that we are not the reflection in the mirror. To separate the behavior from the 'one behaving (or person for those who have no issue with that word lol) is renowned for allowing the patient to 'see/identify' the behaviors for what they are ... it is an integral aspect of working with children ... 'no it is not you that is inappropriate, it is your behaviour' ... same thing

[Gem]

It works for the same reason that we tell ourselves we are not our thoughts ... or that we are not the reflection in the mirror. To separate the behavior from the 'one behaving (or person for those who have no issue with that word lol) is renowned for allowing the patient to 'see/identify' the behaviors for what they are ... it is an integral aspect of working with children ... 'no it is not you that is inappropriate, it is your behaviour' ... same thing

The AA people say like "I'm john and I'm an alcaholic... I've been sober for 2 years..."

[sound]

yeah well maybe if they changed that aspect of their program their success rate would climb even further ... who knows

[Gem]

yeah well maybe if they changed that aspect of their program their success rate would climb even further ... who knows

I think their methods entail life long craving, for me it was indifference to the drug and withdrawls that was key, so I was like 'I'm not interested anymore, and these withdrawls are a real bummer'.

Besides being stoned was getting in the way of meditations.

[hybrid]

I stopped drinking and doing drugs after a long addiction to them.
some addictions are just habit forming and the dependence is only psychological.

some destroy and alter the brain chemical make up and in turn the behavior and in need in rehabilitation.

and i did mentioned addiction to shepherd because the first step in the process of addiction is to admit that there is something wrong with you and admit that you are indeed an addict. not to deny that there is nothing wrong with you which seemed to be what shepherd is implying.

.

[hybrid]

It works for the same reason that we tell ourselves we are not our thoughts ... or that we are not the reflection in the mirror. To separate the behavior from the 'one behaving (or person for those who have no issue with that word lol) is renowned for allowing the patient to 'see/identify' the behaviors for what they are ... it is an integral aspect of working with children ... 'no it is not you that is inappropriate, it is your behaviour' ... same thing
it is necessary, so as to heal you of your addiction to your thoughts.

.

[sound]

I think their methods entail life long craving, for me it was indifference to the drug and withdrawls that was key, so I was like 'I'm not interested anymore, and these withdrawls are a real bummer'.

yes I understand ... what we don't know is whether or not it has some other adverse affect on our psyche by telling ourselves we are 'addicts' ... regarding alcoholics anonymous i think if it is working to assist people to abstain then it is ok and they are working with adults not children however it is worthy to note that labeling can create secondary problems with some individuals ... in my line of work it is against good practice guidelines to label clients when they come into the service with a substance dependency ...

[shepherd]

There is addiction though, so hybrid's point stands.

I can see that LOL but what I was referring to was treating them like and addict which implies there is something wrong with them. treating them that way can keep them in that pattern of behaviour.

anyway thats another thread :0)

[Gem]

some addictions are just habit forming and the dependence is only psychological.

some destroy and alter the brain chemical make up and in turn the behavior and in need in rehabilitation.

and i did mentioned addiction to shepherd because the first step in the process of addiction is to admit that there is something wrong with you and admit that you are indeed an addict. not to deny that there is nothing wrong with you which seemed to be what shepherd is implying.

.

Oh sure... You have to realize you have a serious addiction problem, and it's never easy, I still get the craving sometimes, and might even relapse... but not the drink, that's truely gone away now... and some drugs I only occasioned with... but the weed is the worst one which I experience real temptation for...

Maintaining the meditation is best for me though... it's a matter of priority then.

[sound]

it is necessary, so as to heal you of your addiction to your thoughts.

.
There is always more than one way to peel a banana ...

[shepherd]

and i did mentioned addiction to shepherd because the first step in the process of addiction is to admit that there is something wrong with you and admit that you are indeed an addict. not to deny that there is nothing wrong with you which seemed to be what shepherd is implying.

They are good points, but we dont often seem to have issues pointing out what is wrong with us but we do with what is right.

Of course there are going to things wrong with us which cant be ignored. If i lost an arm tomorrow, I cant well walk around saying I am fine. but the original point is about getting lost within the trap of thinking there is something wrong we have to right.

I see this with clients who are on spiritual quests too and they are still in the constant stream of being "wrong" so they have to find that elusive key to be somehow healed or right.

[Gem]

I can see that LOL but what I was referring to was treating them like and addict which implies there is something wrong with them. treating them that way can keep them in that pattern of behaviour.

anyway thats another thread :0)

It's an obsession driven by desire and satisfaction, which is a repeated cycle that gains momentum and before you know it you're permanently stoned and craving several times a day... it starts to mess with your paranioa, and it's expensive.

It can be considered an illness... very detrimental to mental and physical (and financial) health.

[hybrid]

There is always more than one way to peel a banana ...

none if your fine dining. :tongue::tongue:

[sound]

Each chef would argue that his/her method is best :tongue: :tongue:

[hybrid]

Each chef would argue that his/her method is best :tongue: :tongue:

i'm not talking about chefs... hehe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBJV56WUDng

[sound]

I always make a joke when i don't understand :D

[hybrid]

yes I understand ... what we don't know is whether or not it has some other adverse affect on our psyche by telling ourselves we are 'addicts' ... regarding alcoholics anonymous i think if it is working to assist people to abstain then it is ok and they are working with adults not children however it is worthy to note that labeling can create secondary problems with some individuals ... in my line of work it is against good practice guidelines to label clients when they come into the service with a substance dependency ...

just to make it clear (for me) ... admission of one's problem as against it's denial is not the same as labeling oneself as such. while the former is helfpul, the latter is unnecessary.

.

[sound]

Yes I agree ... I was not suggesting denial ...

[hybrid]

I always make a joke when i don't understand :D

must have been rubbed it from you. :D

[hybrid]

To me my true self is the observer of my thoughts feelings and actions. When i am still i know my true self.
true self implies there is only the self, since false self is false simply because it is not the self.

as always to believe that these selves are real entities is what i called the reification of mental ideas. in this light shepherd claim has validity. this is potential a trap to the seeker. but not beyond remedy and this is the problem of the mind more than the problem of the concepts and ideas we formulate.

.
.

[Perspective]

Would love your thoughts on this elusive true self :wink:
Admitedly, the stiring of others' ego-like claims of "enlightenment" or "unconditional love" - also stir my ego! ARRR! :wink: :D How dare, they claim to be perfect, when they struggle as much as the rest of us!
If someone had found something real, they wouldn't go around shouting it, they'd just live it, by example.
But I, too go around shouting things (metaphorically speaking)... often because I'm not sure what I believe & am trying it out on others. lol

I'd like to quote another poster who was responding to a similar question regarding "no self":

Self is self evident: "I think therefore I am" -Descartes

You seem to be under the impression that the processes that make up a sentient being have to be completely coherent. They are not and a person is indeed a jumble of disparate processes; but sentience has to operate somehow and sentience is integrated to the extent that we can have this discussion on this forum.

You are talking about pride and egotism where a person has a distorted sense of self to protect them from the truth of existence. Often this involves defense mechanisms from self-sabotage to displacement. However, even a healthy sense of self is a delusion in the mind but it is necessary for the tying together of the different processes that make up a person and thus a valid component of self!

Every living being has this sense of self to some extent ours is more complex than a bacterium but really no different on a fundamental level.

You can strip down the sense of self so that it is at a 'humble' level that shows maturity and temperance and it is good to do so. Perhaps that is what you mean? How about a little humility with that sense of self! :smile:

[hybrid]

.

They are good points, but we dont often seem to have issues pointing out what is wrong with us but we do with what is right.

Of course there are going to things wrong with us which cant be ignored. If i lost an arm tomorrow, I cant well walk around saying I am fine. but the original point is about getting lost within the trap of thinking there is something wrong we have to right.

I see this with clients who are on spiritual quests too and they are still in the constant stream of being "wrong" so they have to find that elusive key to be somehow healed or right.
the idea that there is something fundamentally wrong with us humans went back as far from the time of the doctrine of "original sin".

so whether it is believed that we are born sinners and seek salvation or we have a false self and seek the true self, where do you think this sense of something wrong is coming from?

to me this is more fundamental/prior to the doctrines of orig sin and true self. meaning these doctrines are there not as the causes of this universal human feeling of wrongness but these doctrines were here to address exactly this inner human feelings.

so to blame an idea or belief as responsible for this feeling is out of order.
again why or where do you think this sense of something wrong is coming from?
.


.

[hybrid]

"There is no reaching the Self.
If the Self were to be reached,
it would mean that the Self is not here and now
and that it is yet to be obtained.
What is gained will also be lost."
- Ramana Maharshi

[shepherd]

again why or where do you think this sense of something wrong is coming from?

I think you are possibly right, but the beliefs and ideas are usually heavily influenced by religious doctrine. It's hard to escape that really.

[Gem]

I think you are possibly right, but the beliefs and ideas are usually heavily influenced by religious doctrine. It's hard to escape that really.

Ok this is getting really idealistic and flakey, It is not healthy to carry grudges, guilt and emotional baggage, and there is a better way to go, and when it comes down to it everything is changing so one can improve or get worse, that's each person's choice.

[shepherd]

Ok this is getting really idealistic and flakey, It is not healthy to carry grudges, guilt and emotional baggage, and there is a better way to go, and when it comes down to it everything is changing so one can improve or get worse, that's each person's choice.

There's nothing wrong with letting go of what doesnt work for our lives, it would be good to learn how to just let those grudges, guilt and emotional baggage just pass when it happens.

[TheDivine]

I'm coming into this late but I'd still like to give my take on this.

I don't think it's really possible to be your true self in the current social realm. Think about all aspects of yourself: your deepest and most private thoughts, the private behaviours that you don't normally exhibit to others, your sexual tendencies and fantasies, what you really think about people, etc.

Almost no one can fully unleash all of that on the world at large. Whether or not we like it, there are social rules which govern conduct and maintain order. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, I'm just pointing out a fact.

Most of us only express a tiny shred of what we really are to others, and subsequently we don't get to fully explore ourselves in truly dynamic ways. If you can find even ONE person in this life who can fully accept you no matter what you are doing or saying, then you are incredibly lucky.

[Gem]

There's nothing wrong with letting go of what doesnt work for our lives, it would be good to learn how to just let those grudges, guilt and emotional baggage just pass when it happens.

I agree.

I think it's about becoming conscious of them, acknowledge them.