For whom the bell Tolles?

[Mr Interesting]

I've been here in these forums for quite a few years now and one of the things that has seemed to colour that is that I sit at the bottom and other side of most of the English speaking world... which means I'm in New Zealand.

It's then very far away from most of y'all and even with this supposed internet connecting to all the time differences feel like they make a difference. Each morning I come here to wake up and it always feels, as I review the posts that have appeared and grown, that the time of greatest interest has passed and most of you are now sleeping soundly and awaiting the new days still hours of slumber away.

This then has meant the short sentences in reply need almost a half a day at least to get a response so my leaning has been towards telling stories as in the old days before telephones and such and a realisation that a long letter would go on a ship and take months to find it's recipient then be months more before a reply is received and so the day to day remarks are somewhat cast aside for the deeper reflections which might hold the communications longer and of a clarity that might bespeak those distances.

We call it here in New Zealand the tyranny of distance and even whilst the new and shiny fast paced world tells us differently it still but cannot be denied as the sleep cycles of the world always remind us that while you are all filling up the ether with importance and credence... we are fast asleep.

So my episode of Tolle significance happened a few days ago and it then took a day or two to gestate as I wondered how to make it short and sweet and dripping a significance that might fit this quick back and forth and even wrote a blog entry in preparation, as it were, then this morning I open that treasure trove of bickering and find it is not only many pages longer but has been closed.

Okay, bickering may in fact be too strong a word but this on top of the world back and forth with one or two paragraphs at most to me is the twittering of birdsong... not soothing trills but arguing birds seeking territorial advantage.

Not always of course but given the tyranny of distance it behoves me to beleaguer the point.

And the problem is now that even if I launch into my diatribe of the significance of Tolle it really is far too long as I've most probably set this life boat with too heavy a load as I stand here on the bridge of yet another sinking ship I have run into an iceberg in the dark.

Anyways, I'm onto new things regardless and this Tolleism has faded into the past but it has also laid a trail of seeds so I wonder now how these futures it created can be adjusted to this symbolic past.

And so here is the blog entry I wrote. (http://artiwon.blogspot.co.nz/2015/04/beating-around-bush-of-insanity.html)

So you, up there on the top of the world, might see this as completely silly and time consuming and by all means tell me so but I feel some romantic attachment to the time of letters and feel that even whilst the world offers us instantaneous communications it doesn't mean the craft of letters and taking time and giving ourselves distance to percolate what might be deeper responses isn't as valid back in the day when it was a necessary evil... which, of course isn't evil, or even a constraint so much as it was a way of enlivening the space wrought by distance.

[lifensoul]

Dear mr interesting..

Haven't read it all yet, but sorry...i had to stop to actually laugh aloud and write this post, before I might come across something that might be upsetting, although I don't really expect you to say such a thing..... Hahaha....May be I consider myself the culprit or one of them leading up to the thread being locked...but wasn't the one who sacrificed anyone's feelings though..sorry for the shock of disappointment you had to face...but i swear my intention was good...and i know the intention will still work its way through someday...guess that confidence makes me find your post funny too...but thanks for giving me something more to just gayly laugh about...

On another note...I know I continued my bickering elsewhere, on another thread to my own satisfaction, so you can do the same...this is your moment of fame when you can be the owner of a thread where all kinds of bickering happens until it gets closed down, lol. Hoping in my heart of the heart that there won't be any harshness towards anyone whatsoever.

...enjoy....

Lots of love

[lifensoul]

Think you should paste your blog entry as a post? No? There is the word tolle still in the title of your thread, that should do, I think.. Lol..bless tolle...he is the food for thought on three almost bickering threads, this one to be the third, I would want to hope, to make up for your disappointment..

I promise, I won't be the one who could feel guilty of tying the bell to this thread...or guilty of leading up to it...so that's one culprit gone, given that I have been the last one who has had a word in two of the recently closed threads..

In addition, Adrienne only closed it to give us all time to cool off, am sure we have all grown up a bit more since last night...don't you think? Try it?

Honestly thanks for your post...its lovely...can't stop laughing..

[Mr Interesting]

I was born in Canada so right here I will give myself a time-lapsed allowance and answer Americanly. No problem Lifensoul... none at all.

Shouldn't you be getting to sleep though? It is rather late is it not?

[lifensoul]

Hahaha....not yet, you planning to get me to miss out on some fun? No ways. Haha

[Smile it's just me]

Good Morning Mr Interesting! I'm in Hawaii we are only 2 hours ahead here :)

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I don't even read much when people start nitpicking . The occasional popcorn indulgence aside , I have better ways to spend internet time than watching people get testy with each other; especially here . Better ways to waste internet time than talking about wasting internet time, too :wink: :glasses1:

To me, this is place is kind of like people on islands , floating messages in bottles to each other, at large. I'm not really looking for friends, or Interesting Discussions; it's more about looking for bits of inspiration and insight I align with , or can maybe integrate , and also to drop a bottle here and there. Time frame is irrelevant to this dog .

Oh yeah, ps, you misspelled "toll" :wink:

[lifensoul]

Oh BTW, I didn't ask for that thread to be closed, norcwas I involved in the bickering going on for days...except for the last few hours, lol...I think it was closed in response to someone else asking for it, or may be coz a couple were starting to get...what's the word...rude, not like harsh or firm to make or highlight a point, but like proper rude...

[Ivy]

I think there are people here from all over the world Mr I, there is always several threads been replied to when I've been to sleep.

I followed the link and didn't really understand the relation of the furniture to Tolle (it was long, I did only skim read and my apologies if I missed the point.)

As for mentioning bickering, I don't feel it was the wisest thing to bring it up. Whenever there is idolisation, there will be people wanting to defend their idols, so any thread that mentions a teacher leads to heated debate.

Personally I feel that if people cannot question the wisdom of self proclaimed teachers, without being attacked for doing so, then we are living as sheep.

Swami, when you were wanting everyone to share in your love for your own idol, you acted exactly the same.

[Lorelyen]

So my episode of Tolle significance happened a few days ago and it then took a day or two to gestate as I wondered how to make it short and sweet and dripping a significance that might fit this quick back and forth and even wrote a blog entry in preparation, as it were, then this morning I open that treasure trove of bickering and find it is not only many pages longer but has been closed.


Yes. They got Tolled off.

:D

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I think there are people here from all over the world Mr I, there is always several threads been replied to when I've been to sleep.

I followed the link and didn't really understand the relation of the furniture to Tolle (it was long, I did only skim read and my apologies if I missed the point.)

As for mentioning bickering, I don't feel it was the wisest thing to bring it up. Whenever there is idolisation, there will be people wanting to defend their idols, so any thread that mentions a teacher leads to heated debate.

Personally I feel that if people cannot question the wisdom of self proclaimed teachers, without being attacked for doing so, then we are living as sheep.

Swami, when you were wanting everyone to share in your love for your own idol, you acted exactly the same.

I never attacked anyone in that thread, and Sparrow isn't my idol . What makes you think I wanted everyone to share ? I put something up that inspired me ; I could give a rat's hat who liked it or not . There are people I respect and love and whose opinions I value ; some more than others .
Some I resonate with , and some I find very annoying at times, but that's life in the big city , I suppose .

[Gem]

Yes. They got Tolled off.

:D

Ha .

[Gem]

In my time as a member I noticed there are 2 kinds of threads that are likely to be closed: Threads about enlightenment and; threads about enlightened personas.

We sometimes see something that appears to be bickering, but there usually more going on than what immediately meets the eye, and it's usually the case that if it's left alone, it dies down and comes up again, so closing one thread gives the appearance that it's been knocked on the head, but it only means it arises in another thread... That's the invisible stuff.

So... even when I go into chat rooms, people are saying good morning in the middle of the night... and you know that NZ is furthest south and also further in the future. So people are saying Merry Christmas on boxing day...

[Ivy]

Yes. They got Tolled off.

:D

Made me chuckle :D

[Ivy]

I never attacked anyone in that thread, and Sparrow isn't my idol . What makes you think I wanted everyone to share ? I put something up that inspired me ; I could give a rat's hat who liked it or not . There are people I respect and love and whose opinions I value ; some more than others .
Some I resonate with , and some I find very annoying at times, but that's life in the big city , I suppose .

I wonder, if I reply to this, will it be you bickering or me - I'm not going to take the chance.

[Ivy]

In my time as a member I noticed there are 2 kinds of threads that are likely to be closed: Threads about enlightenment and; threads about enlightened personas.



Yes, and perhaps beyond that, the current religious wars are no more than a bigger version, with more dangerous weapons.

[Mr Interesting]

Blog and Tolle.

Not necessarily specific because it's a blog, but not completely so much that I quite like the idea of discussing spiritual ideas within normal circumstances and not alluding to esteemed identities in a bid, long drawn out, to have people more accepting of their own realisations.

So Mr Tolle basically said in 'The Power of Now' that so much of modern life was insane and within the situation I describe in the blog that insanity came to the fore. And previously I only saw such as mildly ridiculous or silliness but when expressed right in front of me it seemed none other than insane.

And will people hunt for realisations outside where the signposts are?

Is anything any less valid without the credence of masters?

If I write long posts where I spill out the interconnectivity of what I think is valid should I receive equal pay for equal work just like a professional might?

And can my obviously, to me, rhetorical questions have enough of the space around them that they are felt as rhetorical?

I was kinda hoping that someone else might reply with a lengthy and verbose reply and go off on tangents that would strain my own ability to forcefully hold as offering relevance the words tumbled together and over each other. That attention deficit might be held aside for some new economic value of the word world as a whole economy and look beyond, and even see as demeaning, a call to arms to defend the scattered street fighting fleetingly added not to focus but to camouflage.

On one hand I love the simplicity of modern masters who bring to the pavement that which was before in towers but I also miss the esoteric element that hid within poetic illusions what might be divined if one took the time and energy to unravel such extreme and flitting obscurity.

This then, at an angle possibly worth accosting with a blunted knife, is me making the world in my own image. Has the image been and was or is it naked and bristling with cold striding out under hopeful prides and over softened feet?

Has it even a heart beating?

[Ivy]

That is a wonderful speech Mr I.

I haven't read Tolle, so failed to see the connection in your blog. But a man simply noticing the insanity of the world we live in, using only the credentials of a man living in the world we live in, which should be the only credentials one needs. Then I feel you deserve equal pay, not with money, but with respect for speaking with your own voice.

[ajay00]

Whenever there is idolisation, there will be people wanting to defend their idols, so any thread that mentions a teacher leads to heated debate.


There is nothing wrong with healthy criticism. But when criticism is unhealthy, and is based on prejudices and flawed understanding, there may be responses.

This is but natural.

When the Buddha himself started preaching his message 2500 years back, many of the Brahmins at that time used to criticize him and slander him as a man of loose morals to destroy his credibility and reputation.

It is hard for one who is set in deep conditioning, to perceive things impassionately and clearly.

[Octy]

Yes. They got Tolled off.

:D
Sorry, I couldn't help :laughing7: at this comment. It was so cheesy :D

As for distance, does it matter? I mean, how many have insomnia ?

As for bickering? Pfffttt... on what thread does that NOT happen ?

Still, how we react is our own karma. I stumbled across Stephen Fry's blog which said... “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine.... "

As for Tolle. Sure he is great, so too are many other teachers. Now what's the question again? Or did I miss my slot in this timeframe???

[Lorelyen]

Sorry, I couldn't help :laughing7: at this comment. It was so cheesy :D

As for distance, does it matter? I mean, how many have insomnia ?

As for bickering? Pfffttt... on what thread does that NOT happen ?

Still, how we react is our own karma. I stumbled across Stephen Fry's blog which said... “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine.... "

As for Tolle. Sure he is great, so too are many other teachers. Now what's the question again? Or did I miss my slot in this timeframe???

Well, this is a forum.

I'd never heard of Tolle until here in a now that happened somewhen. What does he do?

:icon_eek:

[Ivy]

There is nothing wrong with healthy criticism. But when criticism is unhealthy, and is based on prejudices and flawed understanding, there may be responses.

This is but natural.

When the Buddha himself started preaching his message 2500 years back, many of the Brahmins at that time used to criticize him and slander him as a man of loose morals to destroy his credibility and reputation.

It is hard for one who is set in deep conditioning, to perceive things impassionately and clearly.

I agree. On spiritual forums such as this, those that aren't taught the ways of enlightened teachers are told that they are spiritually dead/asleep etc.

[Gem]

Sorry, I couldn't help :laughing7: at this comment. It was so cheesy :D

As for distance, does it matter? I mean, how many have insomnia ?

As for bickering? Pfffttt... on what thread does that NOT happen ?

Still, how we react is our own karma.
That's prolly about the best account of karma I've heard.

I stumbled across Stephen Fry's blog which said... “It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine.... "

As for Tolle. Sure he is great, so too are many other teachers. Now what's the question again? Or did I miss my slot in this timeframe???
I love Stephen Fry.

[ajay00]

I agree. On spiritual forums such as this, those that aren't taught the ways of enlightened teachers are told that they are spiritually dead/asleep etc.


It isn't necessary for one to learn the teachings of enlightened masters to attain enlightenment or to be spiritually alive. There are those who have attained just through natural aptitude. It is rare, but a possibility. And those naturally gifted will be mindful or totally loving, without any spiritual instruction. They can even be superior to those instructed.

The founder of Zen Buddhism, Bodhidharma states in this regard, " Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher's help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn't need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you're so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you'll understand. "

[Ivy]

It isn't necessary for one to learn the teachings of enlightened masters to attain enlightenment or to be spiritually alive. There are those who have attained just through natural aptitude. It is rare, but a possibility. And those naturally gifted will be mindful or totally loving, without any spiritual instruction. They can even be superior to those instructed.

The founder of Zen Buddhism, Bodhidharma states in this regard, " Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher's help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn't need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you're so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you'll understand. "

There are many ways to learn, books aren't for everyone. In particular because they take the teachings of others out of the context in which they applied.

I met an English man once who found the source within him through music. On his travels he came across the didgeridoo. It is an instrument through which the aboriginal people have found their wisdom and stories - it is the voice of the ancestral lands. One day he came to meet an elder aboriginal didgeridoo player and he asked how he felt about an English man playing the sacred instrument of the Aboriginal people. The elder replied that he should play, but he shouldn't emulate the Aboriginal music, but should let the didgeridoo sound the wisdom of his own lands.

All through my life I have heard the wisdom of nature. That's not something that I expect others to understand and isn't something that I speak much. To come for a walk with me, I would hope you would feel the love within nature for yourself.

On the Tolle thread, I stood up for people that were being told by members of this forum that they were dead, asleep, deluded, inexperienced. I don't like to see people treated like that and it is through the love and passion I feel for equality that I spoke.

I don't feel that you or others mean harm by telling others what their experiences are or are not, but I do feel that some openness to the idea that there are other ways that are different, but equal in effect to the Eastern teachings, is necessary to move the western use of such teachings away from the practise of measuring ones position of spiritual understanding against others.

I hope that if the founder of zen Buddhism could come to England and walk with me up the hills, that he could be open to what I see in these lands. Learning and wisdom comes from many places, like the man who found his connection in the didgeridoo, but in the end, it is how we bring it home and walk with it in our own lives that makes the difference.

[ajay00]

On the Tolle thread, I stood up for people that were being told by members of this forum that they were dead, asleep, deluded, inexperienced. I don't like to see people treated like that and it is through the love and passion I feel for equality that I spoke.


I have no idea about that.

My responses were only to point out that it is not correct to judge an enlightened master on the basis of one's limited perceptions and conditionings.

Best wishes. :smile:

[Ivy]

I have no idea about that.

My responses were only to point out that it is not correct to judge an enlightened master on the basis of one's limited perceptions and conditionings.

Best wishes. :smile:

I know, but you were wrong about what I was saying. I did explain that at the time. It's not something I'm going to get into again.

[ajay00]

I know, but you were wrong about what I was saying. I did explain that at the time. It's not something I'm going to get into again.

Fine. No issues. :smile:

[celest]

I follow Zen and was taught that Enlightenment/Awakening can be attained by anyone in a single lifetime as long as they put there mind to it.

[Ivy]

Fine. No issues. :smile:

thanks :hug:

[luntrusreality]

I follow Zen and was taught that Enlightenment/Awakening can be attained by anyone in a single lifetime as long as they put there mind to it.

It can't be attained. it is the ultimate paradox but enlightenment is not state and you can't "reach" it at some point in the future by putting your mind to it.

Enlightenment is even only "real" (relatively speaking) in relation to a person that really exists.
Of course there is no such thing as a real person , a real "I - entity".
So who is there to be enlightened?

Many people say "everybody is enlightened" but this is wrong as well.
There is no "everybody." No multiple entities that do something and live life. Only life lives life without anybody doing it.
Enlightenment is just the end of a particular "I" experience. What is left is just whatever appears. Without "someone" there believing it to be real, purposeful, important, good, bad etc.
Life doesn't happen to YOU, it doesn't happen TO anyone. there is nobody excluded from this big thing called life who has any control about becoming enlightened or not.

There is neither enlightened people nor unenlightened people, that is part of the illusion the "I" lives in. That there are real people, only some are enlightened and most of them are not.

What would be an enlightened person be ?
What would an unenlightened person be ?

There is absolutely no difference. The thought that there is a difference is already only "true" from the point of view of the I-Illusion.

What seems to appear is that there are "localizations" of experience in which there is no more "I". There is just whatever appears - this is what we call enlightenment - the "death of the I".
But it is totally without purpose and without a cause.
And it is not the goal or the "evolutionary drive of the universe" or whatever.

So all talk about enlightenment is really difficult because it is always implying that there is something that a "real person" can do to reach a certain state.
And this is absolutely not the case.
Enlightenment is not a state a person "has".
It is the "realization" or let's say the "end" of the person.
Realization sounds too much like there is somebody who then says: Ohhh..I am nobody.
It just is obvious then that there is no separation and there are no "entities" living life by choice and free will.

[celest]

Oh well Thich Nhat Hanh must have it all wrong, not to worry all will be revealed.

[luntrusreality]

Oh well Thich Nhat Hanh must have it all wrong, not to worry all will be revealed.

I am not saying there aren't APPARENT people that speak about truth and "know what they are talking about" (enlightened people) but it is only from the perspective of the "I" that it sees a real person.
From the "enlightened perspective" - the perspective of reality and the only perspective there is (even in so called ignorance) there are no "people".
There is no difference between enlightened and not enlightened.

[jonesboy]

I would say that oneness is not "enlightenment."

There is also depth.

What is the illusory body?

With even greater depth what is:

Samboghakaya (one of the classic 3 bodies of a Buddha) = Vajra body (Clear light body)

[Mr Interesting]

And Stephen Fry told quite a nice story on QI the other night about a young composer who had Synesthesia who thought that they turned the lights down before concerts so that everyone could see the colours better like he could... because it was natural for him to assume everyone saw sounds as colours.

Isn't enlightenment similar?

For whom then does the bell toll but they see colours?

It's not really then how pointless language might be or not be but maybe how much colour is conveyed in and around that language. Even Tolle who might sit there and have words come forth from which we might measure where and how we are but what if the chance comes to suspend those words and go across space and time and be where the words come from... and the words never came from there, they weren't down in there tucked away in some corner waiting in line to come out.

Wouldn't we then be both space and time and whatever words came about wouldn't matter?

We were told early to read between the lines but might modern parlance be 'be between the lines'?

I know too that I'll come back to this and I won't see it alike another person wrote it. It won't be brand new as if it never was before.

[Octy]

It all sounds like bla bla bla to me. Who cares? Just feel with the heart. Quite simple really. No need for words, whining, or reading between the lines.

But I'm a newbie, what would I know?

[celest]

It all sounds like bla bla bla to me. Who cares? Just feel with the heart. Quite simple really. No need for words, whining, or reading between the lines.

But I'm a newbie, what would I know?

You know more than you think you know :D

[Gem]

And Stephen Fry told quite a nice story on QI the other night about a young composer who had Synesthesia who thought that they turned the lights down before concerts so that everyone could see the colours better like he could... because it was natural for him to assume everyone saw sounds as colours.

Isn't enlightenment similar?

For whom then does the bell toll but they see colours?

It's not really then how pointless language might be or not be but maybe how much colour is conveyed in and around that language. Even Tolle who might sit there and have words come forth from which we might measure where and how we are but what if the chance comes to suspend those words and go across space and time and be where the words come from... and the words never came from there, they weren't down in there tucked away in some corner waiting in line to come out.

Wouldn't we then be both space and time and whatever words came about wouldn't matter?

We were told early to read between the lines but might modern parlance be 'be between the lines'?

I know too that I'll come back to this and I won't see it alike another person wrote it. It won't be brand new as if it never was before.
The paradox of the human mind is such that the nameless be named and the indescribable become an endless discourse.

[Mr Interesting]

Yes indeed Octy there's loads of bla, bla, bla!

I myself love a bit of the old bla, bla, bla and, often as not, appreciate too being reminded that it is indeed only ever blah, blah, blah!

It never stops me though because when it feels like a fountain and I'm merely the carved stone or molded concrete through which it flows and then the water falls to earth and the edges of the pool I tend feel the raindrops and teardrops of the big sky engulfing our tudor practise... there is an ignorance that fits and feels good. My heart titters at the obscurity and non-chalance at which it pours forth even to be discovered by self as possibly valid.

And therein lies tudor, it fell out, and I checked it too and found it was leading to the welsh and a word close by is welch... cheat by avoiding payment of a gambling debt. Hmm, that's interesting.

Oh, and I could launch into a story here, more threads possibly inconsequential tying up my time and energy but it would always be for the fun I could mine even whilst closer still comes the abyss where the slightest mishap could see me stumbling over and into... ah, sweet life.

[Ivy]

Yes indeed Octy there's loads of bla, bla, bla!

I myself love a bit of the old bla, bla, bla and, often as not, appreciate too being reminded that it is indeed only ever blah, blah, blah!

It never stops me though because when it feels like a fountain and I'm merely the carved stone or molded concrete through which it flows and then the water falls to earth and the edges of the pool I tend feel the raindrops and teardrops of the big sky engulfing our tudor practise... there is an ignorance that fits and feels good. My heart titters at the obscurity and non-chalance at which it pours forth even to be discovered by self as possibly valid.

And therein lies tudor, it fell out, and I checked it too and found it was leading to the welsh and a word close by is welch... cheat by avoiding payment of a gambling debt. Hmm, that's interesting.

Oh, and I could launch into a story here, more threads possibly inconsequential tying up my time and energy but it would always be for the fun I could mine even whilst closer still comes the abyss where the slightest mishap could see me stumbling over and into... ah, sweet life.

That's life :hug2: and I have enjoyed reading your stories.

[Octy]

Yes indeed Octy there's loads of bla, bla, bla!

I myself love a bit of the old bla, bla, bla and, often as not, appreciate too being reminded that it is indeed only ever blah, blah, blah!

It never stops me though because when it feels like a fountain and I'm merely the carved stone or molded concrete through which it flows and then the water falls to earth and the edges of the pool I tend feel the raindrops and teardrops of the big sky engulfing our tudor practise... there is an ignorance that fits and feels good. My heart titters at the obscurity and non-chalance at which it pours forth even to be discovered by self as possibly valid.

And therein lies tudor, it fell out, and I checked it too and found it was leading to the welsh and a word close by is welch... cheat by avoiding payment of a gambling debt. Hmm, that's interesting.

Oh, and I could launch into a story here, more threads possibly inconsequential tying up my time and energy but it would always be for the fun I could mine even whilst closer still comes the abyss where the slightest mishap could see me stumbling over and into... ah, sweet life.

This made me chuckle :D

I too enjoy the loquacious posts for two reasons 1. I learn something new and 2. For entertainment.

As for what I follow, if it speaks to my heart, then I'm all ears, regardless of the teacher being enlightened or not.