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LadyMay
02-02-2015, 12:03 PM
I realised something the other day that I censor myself a lot when talking. Take my mother for example: we are very close, but we have completely different opinions about religion/spirituality. However there is a middle space we have found where we can talk about our different things from similar angles. In this space I'm always very careful what I say, e.g. I will always try to make sure I say it in a way that she understands and that's not too radically or drastically different from what she already knows. Because what's the point about talking about things people have no understanding of, right?

But the other day the censor accidentally came off and I was just talking without thinking what I was talking about. And I felt like I should talk more like that because it felt so freeing. But how do you relate to people when you don't take into consideration how they maybe understand it or feel about it?

Is it all about getting a balance or is it all about speaking your opinion straight as it is without trying to turn it into something else it's not?

How have you approached this issue in your own life?

kkfern
02-02-2015, 02:11 PM
i am a bad example so do not follow me. i have sooo approached this issue all my life.

this post can be combined with "Spiritual discussion making people uncomfortable" this is what i have lived with all my life. when i was young, i had no choice but to keep quiet. children should be seen and not heard. so i kept it secret. it = psychic events. i was good at secrets. i kept everything in an imaginary closet. you know, that place you put things that are to valuable to throw out, yet, you cannot use them right now. i loved my closet. i was safe in there. i am finally out of the closet.

even now i am editing myself to see how much to reveal. old habits die hard. i do/did love to join religions discussions in the context of it being a discussion. some study groups are like this. i do speak up. it does annoy some. but it feels so good to speak my truth.

other then that , it is usually a one sentence comeback at work. i am a cashier. some customers will say things like "well we only get one life" i will say some people believe we get more then one. or you are entitled to your opinion, i see things differently.

i was once fired for speaking. i had one of my visions. i saw myself raising my arm at work and pointing to a co-worker and telling them to call 911. the person was standing in front of a clock that said 6:00. i told the girls to watch out every day at about 6:00. i did not know when or what would happen but i knew it would. when it did happen. a fight in the lobby. two co-workers were afraid and the district manager said i could no longer talk about such things and lost my job.

my whole life, like it or not, is about coming out of the closet. i would not. i was safe there. but spirit would not be denied. i was in a roll over accident. i have a brain injury. the stop button is no longer there. whatever comes to my mind goes right out of my mouth. so i am forced to speak up and out. i have found that it is safer now. i do run into problems but more often then not, it is good. times have changed since i was young. it is safer.

kk

VinceField
02-02-2015, 02:32 PM
I believe it is important to consider two things when saying anything:

1. Your reason for saying it.

2. How what your saying will affect the person/people listening.

If you are saying something because you truly believe it will be of benefit for that person, then great. If what you are saying is coming from a reaction of aversion to something, or from a place of attachment, or if you can anticipate it leading to an adverse reaction in that person in some way, then it may be best to pause and reconsider.

There are also other factors to consider when evaluating the wholesomeness of one's speech:

Is what you are saying completely true? Deliberately lying is false speech and should be avoided. It is said that a person who knowingly lies is capable of the worst evils.

Are you saying it at the right time? Even if what you are saying is true, timing is important, and could determine whether the person benefits from your words or whether it causes them pain and suffering.

Are your words divisive? Will they lead to argument and hostility between others?

Are you speaking with a noble purpose, or are you simply engaging in idle chatter that is of no benefit to anyone?


Five keys to right speech:

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

[1] "Do I speak at the right time, or not?

[2] "Do I speak of facts, or not?

[3] "Do I speak gently or harshly?

[4] "Do I speak profitable words or not?

[5] "Do I speak with a kindly heart, or inwardly malicious?

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/

Frederick33
02-02-2015, 02:36 PM
well why should you want to talk about things

most 3D knowledge based people are not developed or

not free or intelligent enough to understand .

not realizing the vastness of what you can learn

and the massive possessive impact all that has on your life

for your self is an act of not not being intelligent

The Back Seat
02-02-2015, 02:50 PM
I like to feel out my audience first. I have strong opinions that i hold true to myself (not only relating to spirituality and religion). I used to speak unfiltered about it to anyone that would spark up a conversation relating to the different topics. A lot of people would get defensive and take it personally even though it was not meant to be personal.

Sometimes I'll hint at my view point and see how the person reacts. You can always tell if someone can hold a civil debate on issues by their first response. When someone takes on a defensive, almost startled look/aura, they probably aren't the best person to debate differing views with. On the hand, some people will almost take on an excited and interested look as if they enjoy the opportunity to express and hear differing views, and these people are more suitable for debate. I have had many debates with differing views that where mutually respectful and others that ended in character assassination.

Some people are just egotistical and just don't want to hear differing views, while some are more openminded to others views (whether or not they agree)

VinceField
02-02-2015, 03:04 PM
Some people are just egotistical and just don't want to hear differing views, while some are more openminded to others views (whether or not they agree)

On the other hand, perhaps it is just as egotistical to push one's views onto someone who we know has no desire to entertain them and will not benefit from them.

kkfern
02-02-2015, 03:43 PM
perhaps this or perhaps that. all i know for sure is i have the right to speak my experiences and my beliefs. they can say theirs and i can say mine. that is not a problem. the problem is when people take offense with things.

everyone is free to speak. at least in this country. at least in this life. i can no longer be killed for being what i am. i can no longer be locked up as crazy. sure, they still trash talk me but i can handle that. i am what i am. i am.

kk

Molearner
02-02-2015, 03:51 PM
We cannot question the right to speak but we should contemplate the need to speak.

skygazer
02-02-2015, 04:16 PM
In my world I censor myself all the time, if not I couldn't hold a job and would be living a life on the street...where of course I wouldn't have to censor myself at all, so maybe that's the way to go for me....

There is only one exception, and that is cruelty to animals and children, then, I am on you like flees. I speak out for them because they can't speak for themselves and have no rights. Oh, I know there's laws, blah, blah, blah, but behind a closed door, or when they think no one is noticing or even cares, adults can and do behave like deranged empty shells, passing for human beings, and animals and children have to endure the suffering they inflict.

I've done away with traps and set animals free and I've knocked on doors and insisted they give water and shade to dogs or take them inside or face being reported.
I've fed hungry children and reported bruises, self harming, and much more.

Most people are unconscious to their vicious ways. They have endless excuses for their behavior.

VinceField
02-02-2015, 05:05 PM
perhaps this or perhaps that. the problem is when people take offense with things.

everyone is free to speak. at least in this country. at least in this life.

kk

If one is speaking to another person without taking into consideration how the person will respond, then the person speaking is coming from a place of selfishness. The compassionate approach to speaking is to ensure one is not hurting others with their words. Even if the speaker knows that the person taking offense has no good reason to take offense, they are still knowingly hurting that person, and there is no goodwill in that.

We cannot question the right to speak but we should contemplate the need to speak.

Right on.

LadyMay
02-02-2015, 05:31 PM
If one is speaking to another person without taking into consideration how the person will respond, then the person speaking is coming from a place of selfishness.

On the other hand you could say the person is speaking from a place of fear...

Octy
02-02-2015, 05:43 PM
We cannot question the right to speak but we should contemplate the need to speak. ^ love

The more I hold myself back from voicing my opinion, the more I see.

Octy
02-02-2015, 05:54 PM
On the other hand you could say the person is speaking from a place of fear...
Yes! Being afraid of the other person's reaction...

I believe if we speak with kindness our words can still get twisted or taken the wrong way. At the same time, I believe we should do it anyway.

I'm learning to filter more. Not because I'm worried about how the other person is going to interpret my words... instead, I have less of a need to share them

Miss Hepburn
02-02-2015, 05:58 PM
I'm a bad example, too.
I will not talk to anyone about what is imp to me if
I already know they will not care or understand.

People can't be everything to me...best friend, counselor, helper with
projects...this one I share deep spiritual stuff with and this one I don't.
This one I drink with and this one I dont. This one helps with my roof, this one
I would never ask.
I keep clear boundaries....this one may enter...
This one may enter just so far.

dryad
02-02-2015, 06:46 PM
Be careful what you say scarlett. People dont always react well. Their comments can make you doubt yourself and that can make you vulnerable. When I first started talking to my spirit guides I told my brother about it. He was a born again christian at the time (still christian but less extreme now). He told me they were demons. I did not agree with him but the doubt still affected me and made me vulnerable to actual demons. I met a few angels. He told me they couldnt possibly be angels because he'd never met one. And why would they visit me and not him right?

That was where I stopped telling him about anything spiritual because his self centred egotistical perspective was a bit too obvious there. Imagine if I tried to explain the "I am god" concept to him. It does make it funny when he tries to tell me that jesus is god though because my reaction now is yes...but so am I.

Also be careful about teaching people. You may have the best of intentions but it is entirely possible to scare people away from the spiritual path. You cant teach someone unless they are ready to learn. And even then start from where they are not where you are.

kkfern
02-02-2015, 06:49 PM
If one is speaking to another person without taking into consideration how the person will respond, then the person speaking is coming from a place of selfishness. The compassionate approach to speaking is to ensure one is not hurting others with their words. Even if the speaker knows that the person taking offense has no good reason to take offense, they are still knowingly hurting that person, and there is no goodwill in that.



Right on.

that is only if one thinks he is superior and is there to preach. that is why they label or judge others as selfish. so they can keep feeling superior. they are forwarding their own faith or the words of others to show how they are better. they have a better way.

for me, it is not knowingly hurting anyone. it might even be a bit of helping them. i only speak of what i have experienced. that is what people find offensive. it is like coming out of the closet because i have hid for so long. it is parallel to the gays. their speaking their truth is offensive to some. some would like to silence them. but they NEED to speak their truth. because it is the truth.

kk

Molearner
02-02-2015, 06:52 PM
I'm a bad example, too.
I will not talk to anyone about what is imp to me if
I already know they will not care or understand.

People can't be everything to me...best friend, counselor, helper with
projects...this one I share deep spiritual stuff with and this one I don't.
This one I drink with and this one I dont. This one helps with my roof, this one
I would never ask.
I keep clear boundaries....this one may enter...
This one may enter just so far.

Miss Hepburn,

We are all bad examples. We all do this. The ego constructs these impenetrable walls and we judge that people will not understand or care. We all have probably also had the experience that our judgments were incorrect and we have found beauty in unexpected places. It all boils down to we were afraid to share and they were afraid to share. When we have situations where both parties are willing to share and to trust then love can be the result. Egos are overcome.....fear is overcome......and love can find a birthplace. Nevertheless, we tend to trust our discernment....anything beyond that is a leap of faith.

kkfern
02-02-2015, 07:02 PM
Be careful what you say scarlett. People dont always react well. Their comments can make you doubt yourself and that can make you vulnerable. When I first started talking to my spirit guides I told my brother about it. He was a born again christian at the time (still christian but less extreme now). He told me they were demons. I did not agree with him but the doubt still affected me and made me vulnerable to actual demons. I met a few angels. He told me they couldnt possibly be angels because he'd never met one. And why would they visit me and not him right?

That was where I stopped telling him about anything spiritual because his self centred egotistical perspective was a bit too obvious there. Imagine if I tried to explain the "I am god" concept to him. It does make it funny when he tries to tell me that jesus is god though because my reaction now is yes...but so am I.

Also be careful about teaching people. You may have the best of intentions but it is entirely possible to scare people away from the spiritual path. You cant teach someone unless they are ready to learn. And even then start from where they are not where you are.

so so so true. my sister, a cloistered nun, told me i was going to hell. my second grade teacher called me a devil child. i do try to do it with a bit of a joke. that is how my teachers say is the way with the tough nuts that are hard to crack. that is how they did me. i was that thought nut.

do you know what laughter is. laughter is when you accept something and the realize you must reject it. in that moment of rejection...you laugh. i love to laugh. it is also a way to show how you CAN reject what you have accepted. it helps you to think. to really think about things.

when sitting with my teachers, there was one that always seemed out of place. i called him the joker. he was disrespectful and challenging. he challenged thought streams. and broke up the stream. in spirit, there are actually streams of thought. they flow together. kind of like ribbons. you must do this. you must think this. you must follow or go to hell. he could untangle the ties of the ribbon. and free the flow.

there is more, there is always more.

kk

athribiristan
02-02-2015, 07:03 PM
I no longer offer advice/interpretation unless specifically asked. If someone asks a question, I will answer it fully and unapologetically. Otherwise, I keep my knowledge/opinions to myself. Mostly.

One of my favorite bible quotes speaks to this:

Ma 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


Meaning that when we offer knowledge to people who are not ready to receive it, they tend to turn on the person doing the offering.

kkfern
02-02-2015, 07:05 PM
Miss Hepburn,

We are all bad examples. We all do this. The ego constructs these impenetrable walls and we judge that people will not understand or care. We all have probably also had the experience that our judgments were incorrect and we have found beauty in unexpected places. It all boils down to we were afraid to share and they were afraid to share. When we have situations where both parties are willing to share and to trust then love can be the result. Egos are overcome.....fear is overcome......and love can find a birthplace. Nevertheless, we tend to trust our discernment....anything beyond that is a leap of faith.

i love to leap. i love to dive into the flow. i love exiting the ego and merging with the all.

kk

VinceField
02-02-2015, 07:14 PM
that is only if one thinks he is superior and is there to preach. that is why they label or judge others as selfish. so they can keep feeling superior. they are forwarding their own faith or the words of others to show how they are better. they have a better way.

A person doesn't necessarily have to be coming from a place of superiority, and at times may even be coming from a place of kindness. Perhaps the speaker has a true intention to help someone, but they are untimely in their advice, or they approach it in an off-putting way, or they don't think it through as to how that particular person may respond. The intentions are well but the application is unskillful.

for me, it is not knowingly hurting anyone. it might even be a bit of helping them. i only speak of what i have experienced. that is what people find offensive. it is like coming out of the closet because i have hid for so long. it is parallel to the gays. their speaking their truth is offensive to some. some would like to silence them. but they NEED to speak their truth. because it is the truth.

kk

If you say something that you know will offend someone, then that is probably selfish because it probably only benefits you. If you say something that has demonstratively offended people but you are not sure if some will be offended, then perhaps caution and discernment should be used if you wish to take the compassionate approach.

The truth does not need to be spoken if it is inappropriate or not beneficial to do so. As an example, if your father dies and he was a real @ssh@le in his life, it is probably inappropriate to mention this at his funeral. There is a time and a place for truth. As another example, if a person finds comfort and happiness in their religion, it is a source of spiritual growth for them, and it is not causing harm to themselves or others, but you disagree with that religion, it is selfish to speak out against that religion and put doubt in their mind simply for the sake of expressing your truth. There are times when this urge, this NEED to speak one's truth is simply coming from the ego's attachment or aversion to whatever the topic at hand is, and again, in these cases is unlikely to be of real benefit to anyone.

VinceField
02-02-2015, 07:26 PM
I no longer offer advice/interpretation unless specifically asked. If someone asks a question, I will answer it fully and unapologetically. Otherwise, I keep my knowledge/opinions to myself.

Actions speak louder than words.

How many of your posts on this forum have been in response to a direct question to you, and how many have been cases of you doing the opposite of keeping your knowledge/opinions to yourself?

Of course, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with sharing knowledge and opinions, particularly if the intention is wholesome. I do this all the time. The issue here is truth.

...Mostly.

Ah ha. It seems this last word invalidates the statements that came before it.

I simply bring this up because it is a great example what we are talking about here: Truth is an important part of right speech. Even the "mostly" is likely a distortion of truth, if your activity on this forum is any indicator of your speech in other aspects of your life and as a whole.

We can't be truthful with others until we are truthful with ourselves.

Ciona
02-02-2015, 07:41 PM
I'm doing a lot of self analysis and exploration concerning this topic from a variety of angles right now, both emotionally and intellectually so I can be more effective. I hate talking in general most of the time and really hate wasting my time or other's time. Lots to work on in myself.

A human Being
02-02-2015, 08:02 PM
I think you can over-think these things, and maybe even talk yourself out of talking. Sensitivity to the listener is very important, I think, which means giving them all of your attention.

So really, I think being present is the answer (as is so often the case) - be fully in the moment, and you'll just know what to say, without agonising about it.

Ciona
02-02-2015, 08:04 PM
I think you can over-think these things, and maybe even talk yourself out of talking.

Lol, you can definitely talk yourself out of talking! I do it all the time! :laughing6: :smile:

Mr Interesting
02-02-2015, 08:04 PM
I was reading through this and reading the answers then decided to go back and see what the actual question was, I tend towards that as forgetting the question and reading the replies sometimes ends up with a different idea of what the question is or where it might actually be leading to, and in this one I went back and was surprised to see 'opposing' in the question.

In that respect I guess I don't have opposing opinions. I might have an idea that the people who might be expressing an opinion might have a way to go before they my encompass my opinion but that tends to be with me thinking my own opinion could possible fall short in a lot of way under things I might learn as time goes on.

Then the idea of challenging opinions doesn't really appear and I suppose that's because in the past it really hasn't served any purpose that has a substantial use. I suppose them my own ideas resolve around offering other people idea about how to look at their own opinions... that an opinion is always an end result of a study of some sort or even a chosen belief but in either case is an end.

Anything then that sheds new light or widens such then is apply able even while me coming out as a possibly knowledgeable person is often completely sidelined.

And I tend to reflect alot and let people speak their minds and that by it own does alot of work for me. People talk themselves out and eventually feel that this reflective pondering is actually going somewhere and that something might want to be said. Whether something is actually said is then beside the point.

The Back Seat
02-02-2015, 08:19 PM
On the other hand, perhaps it is just as egotistical to push one's views onto someone who we know has no desire to entertain them and will not benefit from them.

Well that's if you consider debating differing views as "push one's views onto someone". It is possible to discuss differing views with out pushing your view onto someone. Pushing ones views onto someone is like telling someone to believe in my religion or I will behead you. Or you have to believe in global warming or your an idiot that can't understand science. Pushing your views into someone like that is egotistical and not openminded. However, debating your point of view with the openminded that someone else will not agree, is not "pushing your view in someone". and then allowing the other person to counter with their own point is the whole idea of debate without ego (something society is losing touch of). After the debate is over, there are no hard feelings towards the other, no revenge needed, no character assassination, no beheading etc. Just open minded debate

You say it is egotistical to push (I've already clarified that debating is not pushing, but anyway) ones views onto someone with no desire to entertain them and will not benefit from them. That's why I mention it's always important to feel the other person out and see if they are open to debate. But let me ask you something,,, is it not egotistical and closed minded if someone has no desire to entertain a differing view point? (Of course they don't have to if they don't want to and there is nothing wrong with that). I mean how egotistical does someone have to be to run away from a differing point in order to protect their own view. Must not be a strong view point if they refuse to even hear the other side to the story. Now, if someone was going around egotisticaly pushing their beliefs without being open to debate, well your prob better off not entertaining them...

kkfern
02-02-2015, 08:59 PM
A person doesn't necessarily have to be coming from a place of superiority, and at times may even be coming from a place of kindness. Perhaps the speaker has a true intention to help someone, but they are untimely in their advice, or they approach it in an off-putting way, or they don't think it through as to how that particular person may respond. The intentions are well but the application is unskillful.



If you say something that you know will offend someone, then that is probably selfish because it probably only benefits you. If you say something that has demonstratively offended people but you are not sure if some will be offended, then perhaps caution and discernment should be used if you wish to take the compassionate approach.

The truth does not need to be spoken if it is inappropriate or not beneficial to do so. As an example, if your father dies and he was a real @ssh@le in his life, it is probably inappropriate to mention this at his funeral. There is a time and a place for truth. As another example, if a person finds comfort and happiness in their religion, it is a source of spiritual growth for them, and it is not causing harm to themselves or others, but you disagree with that religion, it is selfish to speak out against that religion and put doubt in their mind simply for the sake of expressing your truth. There are times when this urge, this NEED to speak one's truth is simply coming from the ego's attachment or aversion to whatever the topic at hand is, and again, in these cases is unlikely to be of real benefit to anyone.

i wish you a blessing an Irish blessing. may you see yourself as others see you. your intention may be different then what is received. so i wish you blessings.

if you speak of being gay or spiritually gifted and people take offense with it because of their religion. that is their problem. i am going to let my little light shine. they do cause harm by speaking against the natural inborn part of so many. they call names and even in days gone by killed people for it.

it benefits my son whom is gay and myself whom is spiritually gifted. my son almost died because of the depression form the wonderful religious people that condemned him. i simply will not allow it. this is a better world now that the gays are more accepted. someday spiritually inclined people will be too.

kk

athribiristan
02-02-2015, 09:03 PM
Actions speak louder than words.

How many of your posts on this forum have been in response to a direct question to you, and how many have been cases of you doing the opposite of keeping your knowledge/opinions to yourself?

Of course, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with sharing knowledge and opinions, particularly if the intention is wholesome. I do this all the time. The issue here is truth.



Ah ha. It seems this last word invalidates the statements that came before it.

I simply bring this up because it is a great example what we are talking about here: Truth is an important part of right speech. Even the "mostly" is likely a distortion of truth, if your activity on this forum is any indicator of your speech in other aspects of your life and as a whole.

We can't be truthful with others until we are truthful with ourselves.

This forum is the exception. It is the purpose of the forum to discuss our truths and perhaps learn from the truths of others, or at least that is my purpose for being here. Further, the general population of the forum is sufficiently evolved/open minded that i feel I can let my guard down a bit on this one without breaking people. I add 'mostly' to the statement because sometimes I am moved to speak about something, besides we wouldn't want to entertain any absolutes. In short, this forum is NOT a good example of my life as a whole.

The Back Seat
02-02-2015, 09:20 PM
Truth is in the eye of the beholder. Each one of us lives our life in a different parallel universe. So what may be a truth in someone's parallel universe may not be in a different persons universe. The only one that knows if something is a truth is the beholder because only they can feel it. Our different universes are connected by warm holes that can be opened or closed. So we may share some truths in our own universes while we may not share others.

So if we discuss our points of view/truths with others, we open the warm hole that connects our universes. These points of view can then be examined by the other persons universe, where they either accept it or deny it as a truth. At which point either person can decide to close off that warm hole of discussion and both universes go on as independent. Or if we like that warm hole, we can keep it open in kinship of mutuality where both universe resonate with the same truths.

So while we may not always agree with a parallel universe's truth. We may find it distasteful or incomprehensible. But when we realize that others exists in a parallel universe that we may not even be able to comprehend, we can start opening up to a feeling of mutual respect, which spans the gap between parallel universes.

kkfern
02-02-2015, 09:22 PM
i just watched the news. we should not tell isis that they have a wrong idea of their faith. it is helping them. it is selfish to want to not be beheaded. it is selfish to not want bombs.

kk

The Back Seat
02-02-2015, 09:32 PM
i just watched the news. we should not tell isis that they have a wrong idea of their faith. it is helping them. it is selfish to want to not be beheaded. it is selfish to not want bombs.

kk

Sarcasm?.....

ocean breeze
02-02-2015, 09:47 PM
Depends really. There are times when i feel it is better to keep quiet just like there are times when i feel the need to speak up. The older i get the more i have a knack of knowing what to say and how to say it. Though i still have a lot to learn. For the most part i pretty much keep quiet, i don't really care to express my opinions as much as i use to.

skygazer
02-02-2015, 10:01 PM
:icon_rolleyes: i'm censoring myself right now.

Miss Hepburn
02-02-2015, 10:09 PM
Miss Hepburn,

We are all bad examples. We all do this.
The ego constructs these impenetrable walls and we judge that people will not understand or care.
We all have probably also had the experience that our judgments were incorrect
and we have found beauty in unexpected places.
It all boils down to we were afraid to share and they were afraid to share.
When we have situations where both parties are willing to share and to trust then love can be the result.
Egos are overcome.....fear is overcome......and love can find a birthplace.
Nevertheless, we tend to trust our discernment....anything beyond that is a leap of faith. I have friends that are atheists and one a militant atheist...another
a strict and boisterous Catholic filled with ideas that 'we are all worms and
dirty rags'. I just laugh.
I just know who to say what to...if they say something like
'God doesn't exist." I don't say word one.
Don't care to change them, not my job...don't want them changing me.
No fear, no ego...wisdom from experience.

Miss Hepburn
02-02-2015, 10:11 PM
:icon_rolleyes: i'm censoring myself right now.
That is TOO funny...so cute!!!:wink:

VinceField
02-02-2015, 10:59 PM
Well that's if you consider debating differing views as "push one's views onto someone". It is possible to discuss differing views with out pushing your view onto someone. Pushing ones views onto someone is like telling someone to believe in my religion or I will behead you. Or you have to believe in global warming or your an idiot that can't understand science. Pushing your views into someone like that is egotistical and not openminded. However, debating your point of view with the openminded that someone else will not agree, is not "pushing your view in someone". and then allowing the other person to counter with their own point is the whole idea of debate without ego (something society is losing touch of). After the debate is over, there are no hard feelings towards the other, no revenge needed, no character assassination, no beheading etc. Just open minded debate



I suppose I see "pushing views onto someone" as trying to convince someone of something. There is that intention of making an effort to change their minds and influencing their opinion. This is different from simply sharing a perspective, as there is no intention of trying to convince and influence inherent in sharing.

I can't say I totally agree that there is no ego involved in open-minded debate. I assume when you say "ego" you mean egotism or unwholesome qualities of ego (attachment, ill-will, ignorance, etc). I believe that in most cases of debate there is a degree of attachment to one's views, and hence the felt need to explain and defend one's views. There is usually some degree of attempted convincing involved. These ideas can be true regardless of how open-minded the debaters are. There may be exceptions.

One Buddhist teaching touches this subject nicely:

The Buddha was once approached by an Indian scholar who was seeking to debate the Buddha regarding his philosophical beliefs in an ego-driven confrontation.

The pundint asked, "What teachings and philosophies do you proclaim as true?"

The Buddha replied, "I proclaim such a teaching that one does not quarrel with anyone in the world."

The pundint's mission was rendered futile and he left.

The Buddha described the confrontation to his disciples, telling them that when the mind doesn't cling to views, that is what brings the end to quarrels, disputes, malicious speech, violence, and most other forms of unskillful speech and action.

Perhaps a bit of wisdom to consider when looking to engage in debate.

But let me ask you something,,, is it not egotistical and closed minded if someone has no desire to entertain a differing view point?

Sure it is. I acknowledged this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Back Seat
Some people are just egotistical and just don't want to hear differing views, while some are more openminded to others views (whether or not they agree)

On the other hand, perhaps it is just as egotistical to push one's views onto someone who we know has no desire to entertain them and will not benefit from them.

VinceField
02-02-2015, 11:05 PM
i just watched the news. we should not tell isis that they have a wrong idea of their faith. it is helping them. it is selfish to want to not be beheaded. it is selfish to not want bombs.

kk

You missed a critical point:

As another example, if a person finds comfort and happiness in their religion, it is a source of spiritual growth for them, and it is not causing harm to themselves or others, but you disagree with that religion, it is selfish to speak out against that religion and put doubt in their mind simply for the sake of expressing your truth.

I doubt those engaging in mass murder receive much comfort or happiness from their beliefs, nor enjoy much spiritual growth from it. They are harming themselves and others. Your example shows a lack of understanding of the ideas I've shared.

It is wise to be careful not to allow our preconceived notions cloud our ability to understand the logic and views of others.



Take care

n2mec
02-02-2015, 11:57 PM
When it turns into a contest, something is in error. Seems like there are never enough words, right words, or the time to say them.

The trap is in thinking there's something to say.

MIND POWER
03-02-2015, 12:02 AM
If i feel very passionate about something, i am honestly not going to censor myself. But the types of things i get passionate about are world issue's, like people being slaughtered, people being lied to and pawned.

But sometimes it depends on who you are talking to, if you are talking to somebody who has a herd like mentality. If you tell these people anything, that the herd has not been conditioning to think from the mainstream media and the unbiased no agenda news channels hahahahaha! and through education. If you tell some of these people certain concepts and theories, and new perceptions and paradigms. You may get some strange reactions, some of them make act all offended as if you have just pulled you willy out and weed on their leg. But then you get some of them who know deep down, that the herd mentality is silly and if you present these people with new information a alternative view! they may feel liberated and energized at the possibilities in life.

I don't go around on some sort of pilgrimage, telling people this or that. I am ether all or nothing, i am not that much into censoring.

All or nothing!

I don't really think this is a time to be ballet dancing around certain issues.

Cmt12
03-02-2015, 12:37 AM
The issue here is truth.
Exactly, the truth matters. I take strong positions on this forum but that doesn't mean I'm not mindful of the risk and potential for harm in trying to influence others. I allow myself to do this because I've established such a high threshold for truth over the years and am comfortable enough with my process to try to reach out and help others.

athribiristan
03-02-2015, 01:35 AM
Consider also that sometimes a slap in the face is exactly what is needed.

VinceField
03-02-2015, 01:48 AM
Consider also that sometimes a slap in the face is exactly what is needed.

Very true.

revolver
03-02-2015, 02:04 AM
I think two intelligent people should be able to talk together with opposing opinions, if you can't then don't talk at all.

Octy
03-02-2015, 06:52 AM
Meaning that when we offer knowledge to people who are not ready to receive it, they tend to turn on the person doing the offering.

Oh I so know the meaning of this! Been there, done that enough times to know it is best I keep what I know to myself and let others discover it in their own time and without my input.

This is where the rule "silence is golden" come in.

Octy
03-02-2015, 07:13 AM
I have friends that are atheists and one a militant atheist...another
a strict and boisterous Catholic filled with ideas that 'we are all worms and
dirty rags'. I just laugh.
I just know who to say what to...if they say something like
'God doesn't exist." I don't say word one.
Don't care to change them, not my job...don't want them changing me.
No fear, no ego...wisdom from experience.

It is so refreshing to read this! I too have friends from different walks of life and I enjoy them for that. I have no intentions to have friends who live by MY standards and MINE alone. How boring would that be?

Embracing diversity. Embracing those different to ourselves is part of being secure within ourselves and of our own beliefs.

If you believe in something whole heartedly - you become rock like, and no amount of opposition can move you.