We Have To Stop Enabling Each Other

[Cmt12]

This is one of those posts I've been avoiding making but the longer I'm around this forum, the more I realize it's needed and hopefully I've established enough credibility by this point to make it.

Ego is like an addiction to a drug which is why I used the word 'enabling' in the title. As we know, a lot of behaviors that are welcomed by ego are actually harmful to our real Self/higher self/soul/whatever you want to call it.

One of ego's strongest impulses is the desire to avoid pain. This is apparent in any situation that has the potential to be painful (public speaking, approaching an attractive member of the opposit sex). During these situations, the ego will flood your mind with excuses and reasons to avoid the situation.

After investing so much time and effort in spiritual development, one thing that I have come to realize is that our Self has a different relationship with pain. Pain is a necessary evil and is essential for our growth. Now, let me be clear that I am referring to psychological/emotional pain and NOT physical pain.

There is an epidemic in our society that when we interact with someone who is experiencing pain and suffering, the default reaction is to pacify them and help them avoid it. This is our ego projecting how it would react to that pain onto the other person.

Those moments when we are experiencing enough pain to wake us up and strive for change, strive for growth are rare opportunities. Those moments are sacred. If we enable each other to bypass these opportunities, then whatever benefits that pain can provide are wasted. There would be no point, from a higher perspective, of having all the unnecessary suffering that we have in this reality we are living in. Can you guys see this?

There is no better springboard for growth than pain. We can read all the books we want, have countless discussions, but nothing can compare. We have to learn to go into the pain at the times when we most want to avoid it. We have to learn to isolate ourselves when we most want to reach out for comfort and soothing. And most importantly, we have to learn to withhold pacification when others are seeking it and guide them toward their suffering.

Only when we face intense pain can we overcome and transcend it. The ego cannot transcend pain - it can only avoid it. So when we go into the pain by feeling it fully, we are transcending the ego and becoming more of who we truly are. THIS is the definition of spiritual development.

[Ivy]

I like. It certainly suits my life.

For me it has always been difficult to share pain because of the reactions that it gets. It is sad that people don't know how to be supportive when someone is feeling pain.

[Emmalevine]

There is no better springboard for growth than pain. We can read all the books we want, have countless discussions, but nothing can compare. We have to learn to go into the pain at the times when we most want to avoid it. We have to learn to isolate ourselves when we most want to reach out for comfort and soothing. And most importantly, we have to learn to withhold pacification when others are seeking it and guide them toward their suffering.

Only when we face intense pain can we overcome and transcend it. The ego cannot transcend pain - it can only avoid it. So when we go into the pain by feeling it fully, we are transcending the ego and becoming more of who we truly are. THIS is the definition of spiritual development.

Yes, I agree.

But it is one of the hardest things in the world to surrender to pain and to support others as they surrender to it. I can appreciate this having been in therapy - it is even hard for therapists to allow their clients to surrender to their pain. A good therapist can and will, but it goes against every human instinct which is to take someone's pain away rather than let them have it.

I like what you say that we need to go fully into pain and in doing so we transcend it. This has been the case for me. But it is so very hard to do and that's why so many have not reached this point.

[Mr Interesting]

Oh, I don't know... I agree with what you are saying to a degree but when we're in situations like this each circumstance creates it's own response and while we might hold some apparent 'how to's' within our arsenal I don't think it pays to have them too near the surface.

I'm kinda working with someone at the moment and I've even created this working with mentality which I'm not altogether sure of but it seems as though there's a line drawn. Those people who are close to me in a sense of how they are in the world... they're my friends, companions as it were and they kinda realise their pain is there own to dismantle and integrate at their leisure whereas the people I kinda work with they're friends too but they don't get some things and can often almost use their pain as a weapon somehow, to create dominance and it always seems to come when they might be losing ground as it were.

So this idea of the ego shying away from pain... I don't know, I think it's wider than that and not that simple.

And what's wrong with enabling? Sometimes it's the only thing to get that person closer to the edge where they have to jump off.

Every situation has it's own needs and being there within your own balance of thinking and feeling, to me, is where it's at. Okay the arsenal of do's and don't's certainly has it's place but in the hand's of people unable to feel it's just another flag of unfounded discrimination.

[silent whisper]

Oh, I don't know... I agree with what you are saying to a degree but when we're in situations like this each circumstance creates it's own response and while we might hold some apparent 'how to's' within our arsenal I don't think it pays to have them too near the surface.

Yes ego likes to decide *how to do things* that in itself is a pattern related to how to rather than trusting yourself to be as you need to be in every situation as it is in each moment before you or as yourself.

I'm kinda working with someone at the moment and I've even created this working with mentality which I'm not altogether sure of but it seems as though there's a line drawn. Those people who are close to me in a sense of how they are in the world... they're my friends, companions as it were and they kinda realise their pain is there own to dismantle and integrate at their leisure whereas the people I kinda work with they're friends too but they don't get some things and can often almost use their pain as a weapon somehow, to create dominance and it always seems to come when they might be losing ground as it were.

That is interesting Mr I.

So this idea of the ego shying away from pain... I don't know, I think it's wider than that and not that simple.

yes you can't view it all through your own simple eyes, you can of course but not all views are that simple when you look at the whole process of each one of us. Our view of how to, is not the view of the life and how it will be in process as it needs to be..

And what's wrong with enabling? Sometimes it's the only thing to get that person closer to the edge where they have to jump off.

yes life is full of ways of being and doing, so what works for a time is what works. We don't choose the path of others nor do we choose how they choose to be in connection to grow and learn. So I am with you. I was pushed off the edge and it served me well..:wink:

Every situation has it's own needs and being there within your own balance of thinking and feeling, to me, is where it's at. Okay the arsenal of do's and don't's certainly has it's place but in the hand's of people unable to feel it's just another flag of unfounded discrimination.

Yes unique people are and unique are their needs.
No one size determines one way..
Do's and dont's seemed to rely on conditioned patterns of what has been taught...to unlearn patterns..
Where as fully trusting in yourself in the essence of you as a whole being, knowing and aware offers the interaction with awareness of the whole your working with..

Great post Mr I..

[silent whisper]

This is one of those posts I've been avoiding making but the longer I'm around this forum, the more I realize it's needed and hopefully I've established enough credibility by this point to make it.

Ego is like an addiction to a drug which is why I used the word 'enabling' in the title. As we know, a lot of behaviors that are welcomed by ego are actually harmful to our real Self/higher self/soul/whatever you want to call it.

One of ego's strongest impulses is the desire to avoid pain. This is apparent in any situation that has the potential to be painful (public speaking, approaching an attractive member of the opposit sex). During these situations, the ego will flood your mind with excuses and reasons to avoid the situation.

After investing so much time and effort in spiritual development, one thing that I have come to realize is that our Self has a different relationship with pain. Pain is a necessary evil and is essential for our growth. Now, let me be clear that I am referring to psychological/emotional pain and NOT physical pain.

There is an epidemic in our society that when we interact with someone who is experiencing pain and suffering, the default reaction is to pacify them and help them avoid it. This is our ego projecting how it would react to that pain onto the other person.

Those moments when we are experiencing enough pain to wake us up and strive for change, strive for growth are rare opportunities. Those moments are sacred. If we enable each other to bypass these opportunities, then whatever benefits that pain can provide are wasted. There would be no point, from a higher perspective, of having all the unnecessary suffering that we have in this reality we are living in. Can you guys see this?

There is no better springboard for growth than pain. We can read all the books we want, have countless discussions, but nothing can compare. We have to learn to go into the pain at the times when we most want to avoid it. We have to learn to isolate ourselves when we most want to reach out for comfort and soothing. And most importantly, we have to learn to withhold pacification when others are seeking it and guide them toward their suffering.

Only when we face intense pain can we overcome and transcend it. The ego cannot transcend pain - it can only avoid it. So when we go into the pain by feeling it fully, we are transcending the ego and becoming more of who we truly are. THIS is the definition of spiritual development.



Defining seems to me to only create solid meaning in knowing of what your walking through..where as to me spiritual development is a flow of process that only I can only determine at the point of meeting it as it is in that moment ...

So in the flow of pain or love, fear or anything really who are we to determine another's process?

How life is faced is as unique to each person as is their path and process..

I am a predominate feeler, I walk through fully feeling and letting go.

But that is only myself.

IF you look at people who share NDE, what happens to their pain when passing through the light, often they feel extreme love that takes away what was in that moment...

Of course that is only one example, their are many other miraculous moments shared by many...in shifts in ways we might deem as a miracle..that simply only require one to feel something.....:)

[Cmt12]

Oh, I don't know... I agree with what you are saying to a degree but when we're in situations like this each circumstance creates it's own response and while we might hold some apparent 'how to's' within our arsenal I don't think it pays to have them too near the surface.

I'm kinda working with someone at the moment and I've even created this working with mentality which I'm not altogether sure of but it seems as though there's a line drawn. Those people who are close to me in a sense of how they are in the world... they're my friends, companions as it were and they kinda realise their pain is there own to dismantle and integrate at their leisure whereas the people I kinda work with they're friends too but they don't get some things and can often almost use their pain as a weapon somehow, to create dominance and it always seems to come when they might be losing ground as it were.

So this idea of the ego shying away from pain... I don't know, I think it's wider than that and not that simple.

And what's wrong with enabling? Sometimes it's the only thing to get that person closer to the edge where they have to jump off.

Every situation has it's own needs and being there within your own balance of thinking and feeling, to me, is where it's at. Okay the arsenal of do's and don't's certainly has it's place but in the hand's of people unable to feel it's just another flag of unfounded discrimination.
I admit a lot of the post is theoretical for me right now. In my real life, I'm not actively doing this when other people are complaining to me or masking their pain and stuff. It is a very sensitive topic and most people are not interested, so social tact is usually the way to proceed.

I do think the advice is applicable to forums like this though. Enabling is only a problem when it's appeasing the ego. Especially on a forum like this, it is usually everyone's instinct to make the person who is in pain feel better in the present and so appeasing and soothing things are said. However, with a more aware perspective, you might realize that avoiding the pain now is even more harmful for the future.

I don't understand your last sentence. I'm not saying we should inflict pain on others. I'm just saying when they are already suffering due to living life, even though our instincts are to make them feel better right away, we should be aware of the more beneficial opportunity for growth. Where the ego is impulsive, spirituality to me is about what is beneficial in the long-term. If you disagree that that is a universal truth, then I disagree with you. Feeling your emotional pain is ALWAYS more beneficial than avoiding it. The more you evolve, the more you realize this to be true.

People that have harmful habits either toward themselves or others are people that have not reacted well to, or avoided facing, their pain. That is not to say that people who don't have emotional issues are better at dealing with pain, but it's more likely that they haven't had to, or don't have to, deal with as much pain. With that said, the solution is not to try to shield people from pain, which is a losing battle. The more effective strategy is to teach people to better deal with pain by facing it, which allows them to grow stronger from it.

This is an extreme and idealistic idea for mainstream society right now but at some point it's going to have to be implemented at a wide scale.

[Riboflavin]

People that have harmful habits either toward themselves or others are people that have not reacted well to, or avoided facing, their pain. That is not to say that people who don't have emotional issues are better at dealing with pain, but it's more likely that they haven't had to, or don't have to, deal with as much pain. With that said, the solution is not to try to shield people from pain, which is a losing battle. The more effective strategy is to teach people to better deal with pain by facing it, which allows them to grow stronger from it.
Easily said but very difficult to do. I've tried this on many occasions but from personal experience, people don't want to do this. If they are complaining, if they are in pain, or having difficulties and talking to anyone about it, it's because they want sympathy, or comfort.

They want someone to hold them and tell them everything is going to be ok. However... this isn't ego as you think of it CMT.. Being carried along in a situation against your will and surrendering to your helplessness.. that's actually quite a bit less egocentric than trying to control or fix every situation you come across or emotion you feel.

[Cmt12]

Easily said but very difficult to do. I've tried this on many occasions but from personal experience, people don't want to do this. If they are complaining, if they are in pain, or having difficulties and talking to anyone about it, it's because they want sympathy, or comfort.

They want someone to hold them and tell them everything is going to be ok. However... this isn't ego as you think of it CMT.. Being carried along in a situation against your will and surrendering to your helplessness.. that's actually quite a bit less egocentric than trying to control or fix every situation you come across or emotion you feel.
Only the ego needs to be appeased. Our 'true Self' is always self-sufficient and never helpless. Striving for perfection is as congruent for Self as it gets. Ego says we are already perfect or can't be perfect so don't try. We see it differently I know. I'm aware from your previous posts that 'true Self' probably has no meaning for you.

I'm actually having doubts that this was the post I wanted to make. I think the message I wanted to get across is that in extreme suffering, there is opportunity for huge leaps in growth. And that those moments are rare and fleeting and need to be seized if you have high aspirations.

[silent whisper]

I admit a lot of the post is theoretical for me right now. In my real life, I'm not actively doing this when other people are complaining to me or masking their pain and stuff. It is a very sensitive topic and most people are not interested, so social tact is usually the way to proceed.

I do think the advice is applicable to forums like this though. Enabling is only a problem when it's appeasing the ego. Especially on a forum like this, it is usually everyone's instinct to make the person who is in pain feel better in the present and so appeasing and soothing things are said. However, with a more aware perspective, you might realize that avoiding the pain now is even more harmful for the future.


I am sure your looking into only what you are focusing on, missing the view on many levels of process and trust..
Awareness works with knowing that all pain for each one is a situation that is suited best to their whole self unfolding. The body has its own remarkable ability to let go and let in in its own time. Not the way you or I might see as the best way..
I don't understand your last sentence. I'm not saying we should inflict pain on others. I'm just saying when they are already suffering due to living life, even though our instincts are to make them feel better right away, we should be aware of the more beneficial opportunity for growth. Where the ego is impulsive, spirituality to me is about what is beneficial in the long-term. If you disagree that that is a universal truth, then I disagree with you. Feeling your emotional pain is ALWAYS more beneficial than avoiding it. The more you evolve, the more you realize this to be true.

People that have harmful habits either toward themselves or others are people that have not reacted well to, or avoided facing, their pain. That is not to say that people who don't have emotional issues are better at dealing with pain, but it's more likely that they haven't had to, or don't have to, deal with as much pain. With that said, the solution is not to try to shield people from pain, which is a losing battle. The more effective strategy is to teach people to better deal with pain by facing it, which allows them to grow stronger from it.

This is an extreme and idealistic idea for mainstream society right now but at some point it's going to have to be implemented at a wide scale.

Perhaps its just where you are in theory right now, the nature of others as they are might show you the realistic nature of pain in many forms and what we expect is not always what is expected in the process we see in theory.

Being aware and listening to what is shared beyond your own conditioned ideas either by society or yourself, opens you to trust what you need to give..

And in trust, I can trust that you need this now, but not everyone does.

Some fill up before they let go

Some let go and then fill up.

Your view is very much guided by your own principles of pain and letting go...and how things need to be done and in what order you deem it should be..

The order is of itself in the process of itself for the knowing of itself to be in this life as it needs to be..

And seeing life as unique in needs of the walk through each aspect of pain, is what we can only welcome along with your own view if it is needed.

[Mr Interesting]

Have no doubt cmt12 that this is a good set of questions you have raised or that your opinions are entirely valid.

It's like when you go to a chiropractor loaded with pain and he or she will get you into a position of rest and wait till your totally relaxed then BAM! and twist it all back into the shape it needs to be. But even then there's muscle memory to contend with and if you don't keep on the ball you'll slip right back into the habits that gave you pain in the first place.

I've had that mentioned from quite a few healers that people just keep coming back with the same problems... which indeed may be the type of buried pain you're talking about or alluding to. I don't know.

Personally I have no idea most of the time what's going on and rely on spirit coming through and let that be when it needs to be whatever it wants and some form of understanding always comes afterwards but at the same time in a new situation that understanding might give me a certain courage to be in a position to listen it doesn't define how I work.

So I suppose in the bigger picture I entirely agree with you but, there's the but, with the proviso that pain needs to be taken on when it and the person carrying it are ready. Enabling may be a way to get there or it may not but once the point is reached any one in the vicinity is duty bound, if they're able... (and willing) to enable the pain lifting, releasing, integrating...

[Cmt12]

Defining seems to me to only create solid meaning in knowing of what your walking through..where as to me spiritual development is a flow of process that only I can only determine at the point of meeting it as it is in that moment ...

So in the flow of pain or love, fear or anything really who are we to determine another's process?

How life is faced is as unique to each person as is their path and process..

I am a predominate feeler, I walk through fully feeling and letting go.

But that is only myself.

IF you look at people who share NDE, what happens to their pain when passing through the light, often they feel extreme love that takes away what was in that moment...

Of course that is only one example, their are many other miraculous moments shared by many...in shifts in ways we might deem as a miracle..that simply only require one to feel something.....:)
SW I have to say I have come to realize that it takes a masculine approach to succeed in spiritual development. As we evolve, we develop an increased capacity for the feminine side - more compassion, sensitivity, tolerance, etc. but those qualities can be counterproductive to actually walking the path. Anyone, male or female, can access the masculine mindset (non-reactive, persistent, determined, etc) but it is the only way.

I'm just telling you this to explain why I don't respond to your posts in this forum. I could talk 'Spirituality' with you from your perspective but not 'Spiritual DEVELOPMENT'. I hope you understand.

[silent whisper]

SW I have to say I have come to realize that it takes a masculine approach to succeed in spiritual development. As we evolve, we develop an increased capacity for the feminine side - more compassion, sensitivity, tolerance, etc. but those qualities can be counterproductive to actually walking the path. Anyone, male or female, can access the masculine mindset (non-reactive, persistent, determined, etc) but it is the only way.

I'm just telling you this to explain why I don't respond to your posts in this forum. I could talk 'Spirituality' with you from your perspective but not 'Spiritual DEVELOPMENT'. I hope you understand.

It is both as you grow into both in balance you will become aware why you choose to not respond to me because you are blinded by what you deem as the only way through the many paths of being and becoming.

I understand the whole and how it works in the principles one chooses and where one chooses to focus....so of course I understand your view and why you choose it as the way, but it doesn't stop me from interacting...your choice is your own through what you deem as yourself to be as the way.

This thread/op is only about you and your realization and choice in this moment for what is about choices and others where they are and need to be.

MY interaction is just sharing what I see in what YOU deem as being about the way of all..

Where you hold others under headings for what is in the whole an open awareness of connection within the whole spectrum of balance unfolding is just your limited view....I don't have any need to place you under any heading other than seeing you for where you are and need to be for now..and its just how your seeing it needs to be in yourself...

So naturally you will bring it into the bigger picture as needed by all.

It just is..

[Ivy]

I would say it takes a balanced approach, masculine and feminine.

I disagree with a lot of what people believe comes from spirit though - a significant amount of the time, it comes from their inner voice. However, an inner voice starts in the subconscious, the unconscious, the emotions, so much of what people believe is from spirit isn't helpful to the person they're reflecting on. It's the advice that would be useful to them in that situation, based on how they would feel in that situation.

But in the end, if people aren't forcing their advice down your throat because they have permission from spirit to do so, it's really up to anyone asking for advice to sort through what to take and how they want to enable themselves.

For me that is often to retreat and talk it over with spirit (or my own inner voice), because historically, I've found it more upsetting when people don't understand what I'm trying to speak about.

Having been through therapy and seen how its done and how they listen and ask, then give the other a chance to speak has taught me a great deal about what does work for me.

[Gem]

I sure do see a lot of what I call 'incense smoke' being blown around, and this brings about a certain cloud nine kinda feel which is somehow luvvy duvvy and comforting, however, what we're getting at is becoming conscious of self, not in the 'True Self' sense, but in the sense of deeper and more holistic self awareness.

7 billion individual pathways seem to indicate that there is no one way, but there is a central principle of self determination, and the trend of being helpful and suggesting answers, having the solution and giving advice isn't actually conducive; it's just distracting, and I know just about everyone will disagree with that because there's level of subtlety sensitivity and delicacy that is rarely understood, but the supportive role requires a fair understanding of that, along with a deep understanding of the ethics.

[silent whisper]

I sure do see a lot of what I call 'incense smoke' being blown around, and this brings about a certain cloud nine kinda feel which is somehow luvvy duvvy and comforting, however, what we're getting at is becoming conscious of self, not in the 'True Self' sense, but in the sense of deeper and more holistic self awareness.

7 billion individual pathways seem to indicate that there is no one way, but there is a central principle of self determination, and the trend of being helpful and suggesting answers, having the solution and giving advice isn't actually conducive; it's just distracting, and I know just about everyone will disagree with that because there's level of subtlety sensitivity and delicacy that is rarely understood, but the supportive role requires a fair understanding of that, along with a deep understanding of the ethics.

That's just being practical,
knowledgeable
ethical
and picking up on the subtle aspects of distraction, sensitivity and delicacy...

SO much to discern through, its good we can build that in self first.

Understanding is born of everything we understand of in self and others..but then some use theory to understand that..not personal experiences one with others and becoming it.

[Mr Interesting]

Hey Ivy... maybe that's true, well, essentially it is actually but the inner can go alot further in than the subconscious... which is actually quite near the surface. And the timbre, for want of another word, for me, is what it's all about and within that each level kinda feels different. Very subtle. But at the same time the information that comes along can also be a good clue.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Hey Ivy... maybe that's true, well, essentially it is actually but the inner can go alot further in than the subconscious... which is actually quite near the surface. And the timbre, for want of another word, for me, is what it's all about and within that each level kinda feels different. Very subtle. But at the same time the information that comes along can also be a good clue.

Which reminds me of .... how all these surface interactions - words and words and more words , sloshing about - may not be what's 'really happening'. Now I'm thinking of an analogy of water, the surface and atmosphere, and then the deeper content.

And... that's about as far as I feel like going with it, in the way of elaboration. Funny , earlier I was thinking how I have a decreased interest in what other people are thinking, from a few months ago here. The funny part was when I thought "I don't even feel all that interested in what I myself am thinking " , half jokingly , but partially serious.

I've heard and read a lot of ideas, and thought a lot, and 'changed my mind' a lot , and what I'm thinking and pondering about .... well , here I go again:
the surface , and the deeper content . My thoughts and ideas are more surface, but of course, the thought bone is connected to the deeper-content bone . Still , these discussions go on and on , and around and around, and what else is going on ... the deep water stuff ?

Tangent over; please resume normal thread proceedings :brushteeth:

[dryad]

Pain like that can be a very effective transformational tool I agree but it is walking a razors edge between transformation and suicide. For some people it may be the only available path at this time but it is certainly not essential or the only way.

I have experienced pain but I didnt have to go to those depths to learn to transcend it. The key to my being able to transcend it was actually learning to suppress it. I had six months without the emotional pain after I blocked it from my conscious mind. In that six months I gained so much mental strength from being calm and happy and having fun that when the block fell and the emotional pain came flooding back I transcended it because I knew there was an alternative. It became a choice. If you know nothing but the pain you cant see the way out of it.

[silent whisper]

Pain like that can be a very effective transformational tool I agree but it is walking a razors edge between transformation and suicide. For some people it may be the only available path at this time but it is certainly not essential or the only way.

I have experienced pain but I didnt have to go to those depths to learn to transcend it. The key to my being able to transcend it was actually learning to suppress it. I had six months without the emotional pain after I blocked it from my conscious mind. In that six months I gained so much mental strength from being calm and happy and having fun that when the block fell and the emotional pain came flooding back I transcended it because I knew there was an alternative. It became a choice. If you know nothing but the pain you cant see the way out of it.

Experiencing speaks for itself which we can learn from, in how it may be for those who may not know this way through their own experience...

It was good to read your perspective..

[Gem]

That's just being practical,
knowledgeable
ethical
and picking up on the subtle aspects of distraction, sensitivity and delicacy...

SO much to discern through, its good we can build that in self first.

Understanding is born of everything we understand of in self and others..but then some use theory to understand that..not personal experiences one with others and becoming it.
Well, I find that people expect advice or some kind of solution or suggestion, and probably appreciate receiving it, especially as it relieves the immediate sense of uncertainty, and the adviser feels helpful too, but there's a deeper aspect than the superficial issue which is expressed, and that experienced sense of uncertainty enables a person to inquire deeply and holistically. That's why it's more sensitive and delicate when it involves the whole person, and we're not dealing with an issue anymore, but with a person's life, and since it's a life, it's a huge ethical consideration.

[Ivy]

Hey Ivy... maybe that's true, well, essentially it is actually but the inner can go alot further in than the subconscious... which is actually quite near the surface. And the timbre, for want of another word, for me, is what it's all about and within that each level kinda feels different. Very subtle. But at the same time the information that comes along can also be a good clue.

It does indeed go a lot further - but those who tend to want to be helpers/guides rarely do go deeper.

I feel that when people realise that their subconscious mind is theirs and recognise the subtle feeling of their inner self, they offer less advice with the claim that it must be right because it came from somewhere deep (spirit.God. oneness etc). That's certainly how it is for me, I'm aware of my own inner landscape and how it feels/looks/sounds etc.

Sometimes I still share from there, often I don't. But I tend to share as "I" or "For me this is what is...", and make no claims that spirit says or higher self says, or that I am one with the other person. It creates a space for the person to reflect on themselves and what resonates with them.

[Mr Interesting]

What I find more than anything is that it's about the long haul.

And it's more about just being with people in your own calm than it ever is about actively problem solving.

One of the things I notice is that with people who are kinda taking the time and effort to heal themselves is that while I sit and listen to what they're thinking and doing lot's of connections come in that I can have and apply to my life and while I could kind of impress them with my intelligence by making them listen to this it seems to be far more about just taking that knowledge into myself in a way that balances with what I might already have and it's almost as if doing that is felt by the other person and they themselves get a chance to feel integration on that level. That most of the healing is actually a much slower process of not speaking.

Just being yourself I suppose... and yes, people get drawn to that. That sense of calm they might not have and at some level know they need and while you might know of their pain in an abstract kind of way and even see it come up occasionally that hitting it head on with words doesn't make a blind bit of difference for until they themselves are ready and willing to feel it balanced in intellect and heart then just applying intellect alone, even while you might feel, isn't going to do anything and may even further the distance between them and their pain.

And the ethics, the responsibility, I think is also in realising that while they might be attracted to our calm that we are also attracted to their pain, which resonates with what we still carry within us.

[Ivy]

That seems very much like you envision yourself in a position of being more healed/above/beyond/further on a path than others Mr I.

[Mr Interesting]

So while I was writing my response, Ivy, you came in a wrote yours, and after posting mine I noticed yours. Neato, and in doing this came up with a fitting ending for mine.

That I'm healing myself... I don't see myself as healer any other way, well I kinda do but healing myself comes first, and that that, of course, will go out into the world and be part of the world... and come back to me, again, to aid the healing within me, which is now more about integration after watching a little of Teal Swan.

We're always integrating and swapping and building everything a little better a little bit at a time.

(You're too fast for me Ivy... it's not really above, beyond, further unless I might be aware of the consequences of my actions, or the illusion of thinking I know them, so I try to create distance or perspective, let myself sit with ideas a little longer maybe... I realise I'm fallable.)

[Ivy]

That, in my eyes is far more useful than the belief shown in your initial reply.

[Cmt12]

Again, if you don't believe in or prioritize truth, then you won't be interested in much of anything I share on this forum. So, I guess, read my posts at your discretion.

[7luminaries]

Defining seems to me to only create solid meaning in knowing of what your walking through..where as to me spiritual development is a flow of process that only I can only determine at the point of meeting it as it is in that moment ...

So in the flow of pain or love, fear or anything really who are we to determine another's process?

How life is faced is as unique to each person as is their path and process..

I am a predominate feeler, I walk through fully feeling and letting go.

But that is only myself.

IF you look at people who share NDE, what happens to their pain when passing through the light, often they feel extreme love that takes away what was in that moment...

Of course that is only one example, their are many other miraculous moments shared by many...in shifts in ways we might deem as a miracle..that simply only require one to feel something.....:)

Great post, SW. Nothing else to add here :smile:

Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

This is one of those posts I've been avoiding making but the longer I'm around this forum, the more I realize it's needed and hopefully I've established enough credibility by this point to make it.

Ego is like an addiction to a drug which is why I used the word 'enabling' in the title. As we know, a lot of behaviors that are welcomed by ego are actually harmful to our real Self/higher self/soul/whatever you want to call it.

One of ego's strongest impulses is the desire to avoid pain. This is apparent in any situation that has the potential to be painful (public speaking, approaching an attractive member of the opposit sex). During these situations, the ego will flood your mind with excuses and reasons to avoid the situation.

After investing so much time and effort in spiritual development, one thing that I have come to realize is that our Self has a different relationship with pain. Pain is a necessary evil and is essential for our growth. Now, let me be clear that I am referring to psychological/emotional pain and NOT physical pain.

There is an epidemic in our society that when we interact with someone who is experiencing pain and suffering, the default reaction is to pacify them and help them avoid it. This is our ego projecting how it would react to that pain onto the other person.

Those moments when we are experiencing enough pain to wake us up and strive for change, strive for growth are rare opportunities. Those moments are sacred. If we enable each other to bypass these opportunities, then whatever benefits that pain can provide are wasted. There would be no point, from a higher perspective, of having all the unnecessary suffering that we have in this reality we are living in. Can you guys see this?

There is no better springboard for growth than pain. We can read all the books we want, have countless discussions, but nothing can compare. We have to learn to go into the pain at the times when we most want to avoid it. We have to learn to isolate ourselves when we most want to reach out for comfort and soothing. And most importantly, we have to learn to withhold pacification when others are seeking it and guide them toward their suffering.

Only when we face intense pain can we overcome and transcend it. The ego cannot transcend pain - it can only avoid it. So when we go into the pain by feeling it fully, we are transcending the ego and becoming more of who we truly are. THIS is the definition of spiritual development.

A great thread, cmt12...although this is a complex topic, to be sure, I'm so glad you've raised it for discussion.

And I agree that there are many, many spiritual goods than we can mine from facing our pain with our authentic presence.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

SW I have to say I have come to realize that it takes a masculine approach to succeed in spiritual development. As we evolve, we develop an increased capacity for the feminine side - more compassion, sensitivity, tolerance, etc. but those qualities can be counterproductive to actually walking the path. Anyone, male or female, can access the masculine mindset (non-reactive, persistent, determined, etc) but it is the only way.

I'm just telling you this to explain why I don't respond to your posts in this forum. I could talk 'Spirituality' with you from your perspective but not 'Spiritual DEVELOPMENT'. I hope you understand.

Hey there Cmt12...I do hear you that there is a great need for balance in humanity as a whole. I do agree that at the most general level, everything you say is true. We do need to allow everyone their space to realise their full capacity for humanity, and this would certainly mean supporting them in loving ways and not undermining them by enabling their weaknesses or encouraging or bolstering them whilst they continue on a self-destructive path. There is just loads further to be said on this topic.

The devil, as they say, is in the details -- at the level of the individual, often it feels like our loving presence may be making no headway or difference to another as they continue with addictive or self-destructive behaviours but yet it may be that the example of our presence was in fact decisive in some way.

And as as women walking the path, I can see where we most often realise the need in ourselves to develop traits that modern society has not openly encouraged us to develop either at all, or not in a healthy, balanced manner. There is a book I could say on this topic as well, all round.

But in all fairness :wink: I will also say that those traits you've listed are not the natural purview of either gender, necessarily. Meaning, we've all just got to develop those in our own time and in our own way.

One last thing, whilst some manner of expressions differ...SW's style is very stream-of-consciousness, for example...nonetheless I find nuggets of wisdom everywhere these days which do encourage me to stretch. And that's a good thing.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Well, I find that people expect advice or some kind of solution or suggestion, and probably appreciate receiving it, especially as it relieves the immediate sense of uncertainty, and the adviser feels helpful too, but there's a deeper aspect than the superficial issue which is expressed, and that experienced sense of uncertainty enables a person to inquire deeply and holistically. That's why it's more sensitive and delicate when it involves the whole person, and we're not dealing with an issue anymore, but with a person's life, and since it's a life, it's a huge ethical consideration.

Nice post, Gem. Agreed. I do think it helps to flesh out the macro level ethics, and many traditions do or seek to do exactly that. That's necessary so that we can apply those general ethical considerations to the specifics of individual lives, where things are usually more complex.

Peace & blessings,
7L

Peace

[silent whisper]

Well, I find that people expect advice or some kind of solution or suggestion, and probably appreciate receiving it, especially as it relieves the immediate sense of uncertainty, and the adviser feels helpful too, but there's a deeper aspect than the superficial issue which is expressed, and that experienced sense of uncertainty enables a person to inquire deeply and holistically. That's why it's more sensitive and delicate when it involves the whole person, and we're not dealing with an issue anymore, but with a person's life, and since it's a life, it's a huge ethical consideration.


Yes I am with you, I like taking the view of the whole person into consideration.
I have also learned that sometimes the surface in that consideration becomes the place your relating to for them in their need. And that too is considered in the whole in my view, some people are not ready to inquire deeper, reflected in their surface nature.

Remembering of course that we cant rush peoples process, so often they reveal exactly where they are and what they need, just by listening to them and where they wish to go.

Listening is a biggy on every level of listening to others.

[silent whisper]

Great post, SW. Nothing else to add here :smile:

Peace & blessings,
7L


Thankyou for sharing how you felt 7L.:hug3:

[7luminaries]

Again, if you don't believe in or prioritize truth, then you won't be interested in much of anything I share on this forum. So, I guess, read my posts at your discretion.
Cmt12, I just want to say that the topic you've raised, and the search for truth both at the individual and collective level, are all very worthy of discussion IMO and I'm sure that's true for many if not most of us.

The topic is complex and is being discussed on many levels and in various aspects, but this is all a good thing as I see it. In modern society, it's perhaps to be expected that many may relate somewhat less to the search for truth, particularly in good times, in times of relative ease, and in the absence of war, disease, or totalitarianism. Many things are taken for granted, and much seems to run on autopilot, rather mysteriously it seems to me :tongue:

In other times and places, the search for truth was and is deep and heartfelt and passionate, even. But there are many in all times and places who still have this heartfelt passion for truth, so please continue to speak your mind and your truth. And we will continue to muddy the waters alongside you :)

Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Thankyou for sharing how you felt 7L.:hug3:

Back atcha, SW :smile:

[Riboflavin]

Only the ego needs to be appeased. Our 'true Self' is always self-sufficient and never helpless. Striving for perfection is as congruent for Self as it gets. Ego says we are already perfect or can't be perfect so don't try. We see it differently I know. I'm aware from your previous posts that 'true Self' probably has no meaning for you.

I'm actually having doubts that this was the post I wanted to make. I think the message I wanted to get across is that in extreme suffering, there is opportunity for huge leaps in growth. And that those moments are rare and fleeting and need to be seized if you have high aspirations.
Interesting. I do have a concept of "true self". I just don't believe that it exists. Basically to me they are all the same. If you think that any single voice reflects you're true nature, it's just because that's what you think is the best. There is value in this. By giving all your energy to a single voice, it takes prevalence in your life and "makes or breaks" you in those situations you speak of.

However, you should ask yourself if it is possible for you to become your arm or your leg.

[Maguru]

This is one of those posts I've been avoiding making but the longer I'm around this forum, the more I realize it's needed and hopefully I've established enough credibility by this point to make it.

Ego is like an addiction to a drug which is why I used the word 'enabling' in the title. As we know, a lot of behaviors that are welcomed by ego are actually harmful to our real Self/higher self/soul/whatever you want to call it.

One of ego's strongest impulses is the desire to avoid pain. This is apparent in any situation that has the potential to be painful (public speaking, approaching an attractive member of the opposit sex). During these situations, the ego will flood your mind with excuses and reasons to avoid the situation.

After investing so much time and effort in spiritual development, one thing that I have come to realize is that our Self has a different relationship with pain. Pain is a necessary evil and is essential for our growth. Now, let me be clear that I am referring to psychological/emotional pain and NOT physical pain.

There is an epidemic in our society that when we interact with someone who is experiencing pain and suffering, the default reaction is to pacify them and help them avoid it. This is our ego projecting how it would react to that pain onto the other person.

Those moments when we are experiencing enough pain to wake us up and strive for change, strive for growth are rare opportunities. Those moments are sacred. If we enable each other to bypass these opportunities, then whatever benefits that pain can provide are wasted. There would be no point, from a higher perspective, of having all the unnecessary suffering that we have in this reality we are living in. Can you guys see this?

There is no better springboard for growth than pain. We can read all the books we want, have countless discussions, but nothing can compare. We have to learn to go into the pain at the times when we most want to avoid it. We have to learn to isolate ourselves when we most want to reach out for comfort and soothing. And most importantly, we have to learn to withhold pacification when others are seeking it and guide them toward their suffering.

Only when we face intense pain can we overcome and transcend it. The ego cannot transcend pain - it can only avoid it. So when we go into the pain by feeling it fully, we are transcending the ego and becoming more of who we truly are. THIS is the definition of spiritual development.I agree with your defintion and I live by it. I'm going through it now and as painful and lonely as it is, I do not fight it or try to fix it. Others do have a hard time with my pain. They don't understand it and think it is wrong. It's a perfectly normal response to life, nothing more, nothing less. Thankyou.

[Cmt12]

However, you should ask yourself if it is possible for you to become your arm or your leg.
It's not like that, not about becoming anything. It's like if you're wearing a shirt that smells but you've never looked in a mirror or looked down at yourself. You'll think of yourself and the shirt as one until you look down and realize that there is a shirt and then there is you. Then, you take off the shirt and you no longer smell.

The ego hides itself from us behind pain. If we bring our awareness to the pain, then we start to realize what is ego and what is Self.

[Cmt12]

Btw, thanks to those who have given kind feedback. I don't always acknowledge it but I do see it and I appreciate it.

[Gem]

Yes I am with you, I like taking the view of the whole person into consideration.
I have also learned that sometimes the surface in that consideration becomes the place your relating to for them in their need. And that too is considered in the whole in my view, some people are not ready to inquire deeper, reflected in their surface nature.

I think the sense of uncertainty indicates that a deeper inquiry is taking place.

Remembering of course that we cant rush peoples process, so often they reveal exactly where they are and what they need, just by listening to them and where they wish to go.

Listening is a biggy on every level of listening to others.

It's for people to say what they need and that's not something I suggest. I'm usually happy to listen, but since people want a solution, and people usually try to offer that, the whole story is rarely told.

[Mr Interesting]

So while it's not actually healing in this sense I remember learning how to do this in the 90's. I'd get inspirations to do things, even fully formed visions, and with that I'd also get a kind of insider information which I initially thought I could use but whenever I did as in ego for my own ends it was turned to custard.

So I learned there was a way to do things, keep listening for the 'inspired' thought and keep to the program even whilst in a lot of cases I'd have to just let events transpire no matter how much I thought a good intention might make it better.. it never did.

And it's not rocket science but it might be etiquette.

Healing of people or helping them along when we get the message to do so is exactly the same. Being a healer is the furthest thing form my mind, well not the furthest but it;s definitely on the edges, but being in places, even being sent to places where it's required... well, it's really just a continuation of the same skills. Whether it's making an artwork, or making a garden or driving a bus, or whatever... even healing people, it's all creative expression based in the widest view we can bring to it. And hopefully the view isn't hot air!

[Riboflavin]

It's not like that, not about becoming anything. It's like if you're wearing a shirt that smells but you've never looked in a mirror or looked down at yourself. You'll think of yourself and the shirt as one until you look down and realize that there is a shirt and then there is you. Then, you take off the shirt and you no longer smell.

The ego hides itself from us behind pain. If we bring our awareness to the pain, then we start to realize what is ego and what is Self.
I have to disagree. The mind isn't a body. You can shed perceptions, but those perceptions are generated from your own mind. Also, completely shedding them is usually very difficult unless you really believe they are truly wrong.

This process tends to make for some nasty conundrums. If you try to deny a perception that experientially proves to be true, you will become internally divided. At some point, you end up with an imaginary friend that constantly misbehaves that you name "ego". In my country, we have this problem in the form of "Political correctness". I consider the whole line of thought to be a logic error personally.