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luntrusreality
06-01-2015, 11:30 PM
It is our natural "state". It can't really be veiled, only seemingly.
The sun is shining even when there are clouds.
Only when we believe to be on the earth looking up at the sun, we seem to not see the sun when its a cloudy day.


"I was happy before the body wakes up in the morning."
"Happiness is never personal. We have to understand that happiness is simply our true nature being aware of itself."
Francis Lucille about Happiness as our true nature. (3:30 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usr5eLt57Q8

God-Like
07-01-2015, 08:57 AM
It is our natural "state". It can't really be veiled, only seemingly.
The sun is shining even when there are clouds.
Only when we believe to be on the earth looking up at the sun, we seem to not see the sun when its a cloudy day.


"I was happy before the body wakes up in the morning."
"Happiness is never personal. We have to understand that happiness is simply our true nature being aware of itself."
Francis Lucille about Happiness as our true nature. (3:30 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usr5eLt57Q8

I get what you are saying but happiness is just an emotion felt ..

Where has our natural state gone beyond emotion?

If emotions are of the mind .. then happiness is a state of mind .

x daz x

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 09:03 AM
I get what you are saying but happiness is just an emotion felt ..

Where has our natural state gone beyond emotion?

If emotions are of the mind .. then happiness is a state of mind .

x daz x

maybe excitement or pleasure or whatnot, but happiness and peace are not an emotion. the effects of peace and happiness maybe are felt as a certain emotion but they are not a temporary state or mind.
they are the foundation out of which all states of mind arise.
also happiness is not caused by a single thing.
you might experience some joy in something and then say
"that makes me happy"
but it is rather like the happiness was just clouded before and briefly revisited.
it was not gone or came to you as a new emotion like sadness.
the happiness of just being is not caused by any object, but just by being.
it is not the opposite of sadness. it has no opposite, otherwise it would be a temporary state of mind.

luntrus

silent whisper
07-01-2015, 09:23 AM
It is our natural "state". It can't really be veiled, only seemingly.
The sun is shining even when there are clouds.
Only when we believe to be on the earth looking up at the sun, we seem to not see the sun when its a cloudy day.


"I was happy before the body wakes up in the morning."
"Happiness is never personal. We have to understand that happiness is simply our true nature being aware of itself."
Francis Lucille about Happiness as our true nature. (3:30 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usr5eLt57Q8

Then why are you thinking about it.:wink:

silent whisper
07-01-2015, 09:27 AM
Feelings are fleeting.

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 09:38 AM
Feelings are fleeting.

Feelings are fleeting, yes.

God-Like
07-01-2015, 10:03 AM
maybe excitement or pleasure or whatnot, but happiness and peace are not an emotion. the effects of peace and happiness maybe are felt as a certain emotion but they are not a temporary state or mind.
they are the foundation out of which all states of mind arise.
also happiness is not caused by a single thing.
you might experience some joy in something and then say
"that makes me happy"
but it is rather like the happiness was just clouded before and briefly revisited.
it was not gone or came to you as a new emotion like sadness.
the happiness of just being is not caused by any object, but just by being.
it is not the opposite of sadness. it has no opposite, otherwise it would be a temporary state of mind.

luntrus

What are you comparing this natural state too / with?

If you say this happiness has no opposite then this happiness cannot be a natural state in comparison to this state having no opposite .

If it is a natural state then there is an unnatural state in it's wake .

The comparison it's self in regards to being natural or having no opposites illustrates that the mind engages within the experience of it .

As niz puts it's .. consciousness is movement .. and it relates to something that is moving in experience of a dual reality .

Happiness is experienced by someone that experiences happiness in mind and happiness comes and goes within mind .

One can be happy all day long in the realization of self, but self will 'feel' happy cos they are living in the realization of self, not because happiness is one's natural state .

Happiness is a side effect of something .

x daz x

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 10:26 AM
What are you comparing this natural state too / with?


Happiness, because there is no lack.
Peace, because there is no fear.


If you say this happiness has no opposite then this happiness cannot be a natural state in comparison to this state having no opposite .


Only something that has no opposites can by definition be our natural, ever-present state.


If it is a natural state then there is an unnatural state in it's wake .


No, there is only the one natural state.
To say that being a separate entity is our unnatural state is not entirely true, because unhappiness or lack is not something a person has, it is what a person IS.
It just is this way. If we believe ourself to be a separate entity there will be seeking, lack and fear. How subtle it might be.


The comparison it's self in regards to being natural or having no opposites illustrates that the mind engages within the experience of it .

The mind reflects this experience, yes. But thoughts just arise. There is no mind-entity who reflects for itself or engages in anything.



Happiness is experienced by someone that experiences happiness in mind and happiness comes and goes within mind .

Mind comes and goes within happiness.


There is no experiencer other than happiness itself.
The belief to be a separate entity is itself an experience arising.
Only from the point of view of this separate entity, happiness is something that it "sometimes" has, something that is caused.
It is looking at the clouds and sometimes when there is an apparent cause, we see the blue sky. We believe that the cloud suddenly turned blue until it veils the sky again.
The blue sky (happiness) is always there.
From the perspective of the separate entity on earth it seems to not be there when looking up at the clouds.

This analogy has its limits, because there is not really a person looking up, and there are no clouds.
The looking up itself is the clouds/person.

There is never an unhappy person. There is only unhappiness.
It is not experienced by an entity. It is just what is.

We believe life needs someone to live it. But it works fine without an entity.
Look at a plant. No entity inside a plant other than pure consciousness.

Consciousness is also not being happy. It IS happiness.

Happiness is the absence of lack (the absence of lack is the absence of seeking) and peace is the absence of fear.

It can't be a state of mind. Otherwise it would not be omnipresent.
A "state" is only a state if it goes away. Happiness never goes away.
Only seemingly from something (illusion of separation/individuation) that itself arises in this happiness of being and creation.

Luntrus

silent whisper
07-01-2015, 10:32 AM
I would say your natural state of being is still, quiet awareness. It is one with a feeling of inner peace, joy and love. Happiness is more a perspective emotion that you feel for your own reasons another may not feel that same feeling about the reason you have but feel happy for something else.

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 10:39 AM
I would say your natural state of being is still, quiet awareness. It is one with a feeling of inner peace, joy and love. Happiness is more a perspective emotion that you feel for your own reasons another may not feel that same feeling about the reason you have but feel happy for something else.

I like your words as well. I think there are two kinds of "happiness". (but only one that is real ..the other is a process inside this happiness/aware space of being)
Enjoyment for the Ego (this is not real happiness, not a "geneal happiness of being") and uncaused happiness.
Ego-enjoyment is something like gossiping or telling problems, or also using the experience of happiness (mostly object related, new job etc. ) for itself to strengthen the illusion of being a separate entity.
The happiness of a new job is not caused by the new job. It just temporariyl ends the seeking and longing of the person and puts it on pause. Then happiness can shine through the clouds of ego.
If a new job really was the cause for happiness, there would never be unhappiness in the job.
If a new Ipad was really the cause for happiness, it would make us eternally happy.

For example when we look at nature.
In this moment of awe there is no person. There is nobody saying:
"I am happy because I see the nature right now. It is good for ME". Maybe that can happen, too but then someone is still in their head.
There is just life knowing itself through human eyes.
This is happiness.
But it is not CAUSED by nature. Nature just puts all the other things to pause.
That is why we love being in nature, it temporarily pauses the illusion and the contractions of being a separate entity.
This is happiness. We don't have to go to nature to experience that. It is always in everything.

If you don't use the word it is no problem :D but I think I have explained by now that I don't mean a personal feeling by that word.
Also I used it in relation to the video I posted by francis lucille who uses the word "happiness" for our nature as awareness which I think it is quite fitting, because that is exactly what happiness is.
Only the mind makes it into a feeling that has opposites.
Just like Love is not the opposite of Hate.
Only egoic, personal Love from one person to another person is the opposite of hate.
Love for Everything is not personal.
So you could also use the word Love for our true nature. It doesn't make a difference. It is the same thing.

Luntrus

God-Like
07-01-2015, 10:56 AM
Happiness, because there is no lack.




So happiness is felt / expressed because one senses no lack and not because it is one's natural state . Happiness is the result of no lack .

Only something that has no opposites can by definition be our natural, ever-present state.



I understand what you are saying but suggesting a natural state by it's own merit suggests it's opposite . It could be said that every state is our natural state . If the self is all there is then every state that self entertains is natural . Otherwise a self in expression of anger is not naturally being angry in relation to self . Self in my eyes naturally feels what self feels in relation to whatever makes one feel as they do .


No, there is only the one natural state.
To say that being a separate entity is our unnatural state is not entirely true, because unhappiness or lack is not something a person has, it is what a person IS.
It just is this way. If we believe ourself to be a separate entity there will be seeking, lack and fear. How subtle it might be.




I would kind of agree that if we speak along the natural lines then there is only one natural state . That state encompasses all states .



The mind reflects this experience, yes. But thoughts just arise. There is no mind-entity who reflects for itself or engages in anything



Our point of awareness had is the point of reflection had . Your thoughts that happiness is our natural state is reflected upon such a point of awareness you have . Do you see, it's like looking in the mirror saying there is no reflection .


There is no experiencer other than happiness itself.




You relate to no experiencer and yet you relate to their being happiness . This can point to happiness being the experiencer of it's self, or happiness experiencing happiness . You are just shoving the experiencer out of the door and letting in happiness . We could just as well say 'self experiencing self' or 'awareness experiencing awareness' or whatever word suits .

Come what may there is experience happening, the experiencer, the observer, the witness, the self, God or whatever is digesting what is happening ..

The fact that you can relate to happiness being our natural state is illustrating my point . What you are is relating what you are to happiness being your natural state . Without a point in awareness one cannot reflect such a position .


x daz x

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 11:06 AM
So happiness is felt / expressed because one senses no lack and not because it is one's natural state . Happiness is the result of no lack .

You could say it like that, yes.


I understand what you are saying but suggesting a natural state by it's own merit suggests it's opposite . It could be said that every state is our natural state . If the self is all there is then every state that self entertains is natural . Otherwise a self in expression of anger is not naturally being angry in relation to self . Self in my eyes naturally feels what self feels in relation to whatever makes one feel as they do .


Anger (or any emotion/feeling) is not our natural state because it arises in our natrual state of happiness/love/awareness.
Hate has its root in love. Love and Hate are not two equal polarities.
Hate arises out of Love. Love doesn't arise out of hate.
Sadness arises out of happiness, happiness doesn't arise out of sadness.
These are not polarities like day and night or birth and death.





I would kind of agree that if we speak along the natural lines then there is only one natural state . That state encompasses all states .

Exactly.




Our point of awareness had is the point of reflection had . Your thoughts that happiness is our natural state is reflected upon such a point of awareness you have . Do you see, it's like looking in the mirror saying there is no reflection .

These thoughts are not MY thoughts. This body, thoughts and emotions are not MY body thoughts and emotions. Just A body, thoughts and emotions.
They arise in the happiness of ME (and you, and everyone else because there is only one).




You relate to no experiencer and yet you relate to their being happiness . This can point to happiness being the experiencer of it's self, or happiness experiencing happiness . You are just shoving the experiencer out of the door and letting in happiness . We could just as well say 'self experiencing self' or 'awareness experiencing awareness' or whatever word suits .

Yes, you could use these words as well. They point to the same experience of peaceful, happy, aware being.



Come what may there is experience happening, the experiencer, the observer, the witness, the self, God or whatever is digesting what is happening ..

Yes, we are this experiencer, God, witness, obersever, awareness.
Because it doesn't lack anything and is complete in itself one could describe it as happiness or peace, or stillness. But these are just words.
Happiness can not be defined.


The fact that you can relate to happiness being our natural state is illustrating my point . What you are is relating what you are to happiness being your natural state . Without a point in awareness reflects such a position .


No what I am is not what is relating to happiness.
This relating to happiness just happens. Not from a point of awareness but IN awareness. There is nobody having a position. No entity separate from awareness, no chooser or experiencer separate from happiness.

Luntrus

God-Like
07-01-2015, 11:42 AM
So happiness is our natural state, then somewhere down the line you mentioned peace, now love and awareness . So our natural state encompasses many things . It seems only the light and fluffy bits are natural and everything else is out the window . I understand that beyond mind there is no self so beyond mind there are no opposites .



The love that you speak of for example is within mind and is in relation to self or what you are within mind . In mind there are always opposites because we have a point of awareness that perceives what they are or what they mean to us in relation to what we are (or our point of perception) .

It's like saying I am oneness from a 'point' of perceiving oneness . A 'point' of awareness in mind cannot perceive oneness and be oneness . It's likened to being the sugar and tasting the sugar . The mind environment allows one to taste .



Anger (or any emotion/feeling) is not our natural state because it arises in our natrual state of happiness/love/awareness.
Hate has its root in love. Love and Hate are not two equal polarities.
Hate arises out of Love. Love doesn't arise out of hate.
Sadness arises out of happiness, happiness doesn't arise out of sadness.
These are not polarities like day and night or birth and death.



I haven't really touched on how things arise, maybe thats another thread in it's self but if we speak of the mind being the environment for experience then everything arises in mind . We can speak of hate not arising out of love and all that jazz or we could just say that love and hate arise in mind . Then one can relate what we are in relation to what arises .



Exactly.



But you suggest the natural states are the light and fluffy ones . All states include all states not just the light and fluffy .


These thoughts are not MY thoughts. This body, thoughts and emotions are not MY body thoughts and emotions. Just A body, thoughts and emotions.
They arise in the happiness of ME (and you, and everyone else because there is only one).




It doesn't matter who/m you relate the thoughts too or not, what is happening is that you have a point of awareness that makes sense of what our natural state is .


No what I am is not what is relating to happiness.
This relating to happiness just happens. Not from a point of awareness but IN awareness. There is nobody having a position. No entity separate from awareness, no chooser or experiencer separate from happiness.



In or of awareness is illustrating that one has a position in or of mind or a point in or of self reference . You see my point here . You have said what I am is not what is relating to happiness and yet this is a position attained by your very evaluation of it .

It doesn't matter if you relate what's happening to a person or a non person what is happening is there is relating happening . It doesn't matter if this relating is real or illusory or a dream of sorts . My point in making is that evaluation is being had in relation to what is happiness and what is our true nature .

This self reference is what is in experience .


x daz x

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 12:02 PM
I haven't really touched on how things arise, maybe thats another thread in it's self but if we speak of the mind being the environment for experience then everything arises in mind . We can speak of hate not arising out of love and all that jazz or we could just say that love and hate arise in mind . Then one can relate what we are in relation to what arises .

The mind is not an environment for experience.
The mind is itself an experience. There is no real mind.
We are that which is aware of thoughts, feelings, emotions and perceptions.
All we know of these things is that we are aware of them.
We don't see a real thought that happens in a mind.
This thought we see is experienced as mind, not by a mind.







But you suggest the natural states are the light and fluffy ones . All states include all states not just the light and fluffy .


Our natural state is "light and fluffly" just by being itself.
It is at ease (light) and happy (fluffy).
What for example does the experience of sadness entail?
It is always in relation to a person. Awareness is never sad.
Awareness is "happy" because it lacks nothing and encompasses all emotional states.
There is a 24/7/30/365 Happiness in which sometimes even sadness can appear.
For example the death of a loved one can cause sadness, but there is still a peaceful knowing underneath (that is if we know ourselves to be this pure awareness, not a person) that nothing can ever be lost.
From a persons point of view death is real and the death of a familiy member for example is related to a story of "this person was a real person separate from awareness and is now gone forever". This is suffering.
Sadness , hate , anger are only real from the illusionary point of view of a separate entity.



It doesn't matter who/m you relate the thoughts too or not, what is happening is that you have a point of awareness that makes sense of what our natural state is .

This point of awareness is the One Awareness. There are not multiple points of awareness, only multiple eyes awareness has to experience itself.
But the eye (human or any other lifeform) itself has no individual awareness.
The one awareness is right now looking through "your" eyes and "my" eyes.
But "that" with which it knows, the consciousness itself is the same.

If we know ourselves to be this one consciousness what could be lacking?
What could be feared ? Therefore it IS happiness and not a state of mind.
Life IS Happy just because it is Life. A separate entity is not happy, there is no separate entity.

Luntrus

silent whisper
07-01-2015, 12:08 PM
I like your words as well. I think there are two kinds of "happiness". (but only one that is real ..the other is a process inside this happiness/aware space of being)

Everything is real in feeling for those walking through it in the moment..:wink:
Enjoyment for the Ego (this is not real happiness, not a "geneal happiness of being") and uncaused happiness.

People can still be open in joy/happiness and still be affected by ego. I would say more that we can experience a fullness and lasting expression of joy from our centre all the same when we are not tied to the painbody and its affect emotionally. When one is immersed in the painbody, love and joy can still be present. I wouldn't say it comes from ego, but more the nature of pain and love present in most interactions and people are loving those aspects and bringing joy into them, and that is always present one with the whole self.
Ego-enjoyment is something like gossiping or telling problems, or also using the experience of happiness (mostly object related, new job etc. ) for itself to strengthen the illusion of being a separate entity.
The happiness of a new job is not caused by the new job. It just temporariyl ends the seeking and longing of the person and puts it on pause. Then happiness can shine through the clouds of ego.

I don't dispute how people find their happiness, of course opening to feel happy in this way allows people to build that feeling regardless of what or where it comes from. The capacity to let go through the external affects of happiness, can open the internal affects seeking happiness. So it all serves.
If a new job really was the cause for happiness, there would never be unhappiness in the job.
If a new Ipad was really the cause for happiness, it would make us eternally happy.

It doesn't matter how people seek to find happiness, the created path is created by them leading them home their way. And we know what home feels like..:)Some people need to relearn cause and affect in loving ways. And sometimes old ways of cause and effects and love need to be seen to see more. This what you saying may pertain to instant gratification and where and how that stems into adult behaviour...but that too is another subject..

For example when we look at nature.
In this moment of awe there is no person. There is nobody saying:
"I am happy because I see the nature right now. It is good for ME". Maybe that can happen, too but then someone is still in their head.


The natural arising of joy for no reason. I can relate, but that natural connection has been made possible by the human experience so it all serves to the space of joy or happiness in the long run..
There is just life knowing itself through human eyes.

There is life knowing itself, through the whole self as it is in each moment of awakening to life.
Some of us feel and sense.The eyes can view and be still in presence of what is. The feeling arising in that view is the nature of connection and opening to connect. And that source without the painbody, is often emitting joy, love, peace, whatever you wish to call it..
This is happiness.
But it is not CAUSED by nature. Nature just puts all the other things to pause.


Nature is in everything. We are nature in essence.
That is why we love being in nature, it temporarily pauses the illusion and the contractions of being a separate entity.

When you connect to the real nature of others you can love.
This is happiness. We don't have to go to nature to experience that. It is always in everything.

If you don't use the word it is no problem :D but I think I have explained by now that I don't mean a personal feeling by that word.

I don't mind what word you use. Your experience is your own.
Also I used it in relation to the video I posted by francis lucille who uses the word "happiness" for our nature as awareness which I think it is quite fitting, because that is exactly what happiness is.

yes you resonate with him in a shared meaning.
Only the mind makes it into a feeling that has opposites.

The mind is creating this, all this you are articulating. SO perhaps the mind can create anything to be anything. Yet pure direct knowing and pure direct feeling just is an arising from connection in feeling , to something that is connected also. All life is connected. All life is alive and a living breathing pulse is the thread connecting all..
Just like Love is not the opposite of Hate.
Only egoic, personal Love from one person to another person is the opposite of hate.
Love for Everything is not personal.
So you could also use the word Love for our true nature. It doesn't make a difference. It is the same thing.

Love is another whole different topic..:wink:

Love just is, you can love ten or fifty thousand. Love is seeking itself so the more you seek it through many you way, the more you have to reflect on in your external nature of love when you understand love and life is not personal.

Luntrus



Bed time and storm time here..summer storms can be quite intense..:smile:

kkfern
07-01-2015, 12:31 PM
It is our natural "state". It can't really be veiled, only seemingly.
The sun is shining even when there are clouds.
Only when we believe to be on the earth looking up at the sun, we seem to not see the sun when its a cloudy day.


"I was happy before the body wakes up in the morning."
"Happiness is never personal. We have to understand that happiness is simply our true nature being aware of itself."
Francis Lucille about Happiness as our true nature. (3:30 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usr5eLt57Q8

life is like this

some happiness and some pain.
some sunshine and some rain.

it is not that one is natural or predominate. they are both and many other things also. there is also the dark when we are away from the sun. the dark even has a good side or reason. i love to side in the dark and think. i love to sleep and rest. so even the dark is good.

God-Like
07-01-2015, 12:34 PM
The mind is not an environment for experience.
The mind is itself an experience. There is no real mind.
We are that which is aware of thoughts, feelings, emotions and perceptions.
All we know of these things is that we are aware of them.
We don't see a real thought that happens in a mind.
This thought we see is experienced as mind, not by a mind.






Our natural state is "light and fluffly" just by being itself.
It is at ease (light) and happy (fluffy).
What for example does the experience of sadness entail?
It is always in relation to a person. Awareness is never sad.
Awareness is "happy" because it lacks nothing and encompasses all emotional states.
There is a 24/7/30/365 Happiness in which sometimes even sadness can appear.
For example the death of a loved one can cause sadness, but there is still a peaceful knowing underneath (that is if we know ourselves to be this pure awareness, not a person) that nothing can ever be lost.
From a persons point of view death is real and the death of a familiy member for example is related to a story of "this person was a real person separate from awareness and is now gone forever". This is suffering.
Sadness , hate , anger are only real from the illusionary point of view of a separate entity.



This point of awareness is the One Awareness. There are not multiple points of awareness, only multiple eyes awareness has to experience itself.
But the eye (human or any other lifeform) itself has no individual awareness.
The one awareness is right now looking through "your" eyes and "my" eyes.
But "that" with which it knows, the consciousness itself is the same.

If we know ourselves to be this one consciousness what could be lacking?
What could be feared ? Therefore it IS happiness and not a state of mind.
Life IS Happy just because it is Life. A separate entity is not happy, there is no separate entity.

Luntrus


This isn't really addressing my point (I am sure your answer is in your mind) :D .

My point is that you make sense of what you are saying in relation to your experience of what is happening . What is happening is you are relating what is our natural state and such likes .

If you say 'This point of awareness is the One Awareness'. Then surely the position you hold is of the 'one awareness' . This therefore is a position you hold in relation to what you relate your self to be .

If you actually home in on where your evaluations are happening and arising from then perhaps we can come to common ground .

Suggesting terms of 'just by being itself' and 'awareness of awareness' and such likes comes from a place where you make sense of them .

At the moment it is likened to what I said earlier in regards to there being something looking in the mirror suggesting there is no reflection .

It would be beneficial if I could just get this point of reference straight in my mind because it's kinda like talking to someone who suggests they are not there ..

Where is your point of reference had in relation to your experience and how do you make sense of your experience in relation to who/m or what you are .

x daz x

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 12:48 PM
Where is your point of reference had in relation to your experience and how do you make sense of your experience in relation to who/m or what you are .



There is nobody that makes sense of anything.
You said it is like talking to someone who says he is not there, this is in a way true , if you are talking about a separate entity.
Also there is no separate entity Daz talking to me right now.
Everything - the talking - the "making sense of this experience" by the mind - all just happens in Awareness.
This awareness is not an entity, neither does it have a point of reference. A body/mind has a point of reference.
"I stand here- you stand there " referring to two body/minds. But awareness stands in both and neither.

Who do you adress when you ask me where my point of reference is? I guess you adress a body/mind, but this body/mind talks about not being a body/mind.
So it is indeed hard to find common ground in that :P


Luntrus

God-Like
07-01-2015, 03:20 PM
There is nobody that makes sense of anything.




So this is your point of reference . Your reference point is a point where nobody makes sense of anything .





You said it is like talking to someone who says he is not there, this is in a way true , if you are talking about a separate entity.
Also there is no separate entity Daz talking to me right now.


Agreed no separate entity but a point of reference is in experience .



Everything - the talking - the "making sense of this experience" by the mind - all just happens in Awareness.
This awareness is not an entity, neither does it have a point of reference. A body/mind has a point of reference.
"I stand here- you stand there " referring to two body/minds. But awareness stands in both and neither.

Who do you adress when you ask me where my point of reference is? I guess you adress a body/mind, but this body/mind talks about not being a body/mind.
So it is indeed hard to find common ground in that :P



It all just happens according to the one that evaluates that it all happens . I say that if you evaluate something that I do not then you have made a point in reference regarding that which is referenced in relation to what you are .

I see the sun rise here, you see the sun set there at the same time . It may all be one awareness but there is reference made to the sun rising and one that is setting and to that which you are in relation to it .

When I address you I address you in relation to how I perceive myself . I am aware of an existence then I am aware of your existence . Call that existence an entity, or two or no entity matters not . One can only perceive self as they do and how they perceive self will be in relation to everything else .

One human being mirrors another, one spirit mirrors another, love mirrors love, fear mirrors fear .. etc .. what you see is what you get .


x daz x

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 03:27 PM
I think I get closer to understanding what you mean by reference point, but not quite fully.

So the reference point is the human body/mind appearing in awareness?
With that I would agree.
But I wouldn't agree that we ARE this reference point. There is "one step" further so to speak.
This reference point of a human body/mind is just there. It is there like a chair is there.
The chair is seen from the reference point of a human body/mind but the reference point itself is arising in awareness.

So:

Pure Awareness -> Human body/mind or any other life-form -> Perceived objects/world from the point of view of a body

Pure Awareness doesn't split up into these other parts but they arise in it. A human body/mind reference point does not have its own independent consciousness.
When the separate entity is "dropped" all there is left is pure awareness. The body and mind are still there, but they are not personal.
Also this experience is not a personal experience of an individual body and mind.
With the end of the person, it is also the end of all persons.
There has never been an enlightened separate entity. That is impossible.

God-Like
07-01-2015, 03:49 PM
I think I get closer to understanding what you mean by reference point, but not quite fully.

So the reference point is the human body/mind appearing in awareness?
With that I would agree.
But I wouldn't agree that we ARE this reference point. There is "one step" further so to speak.
This reference point of a human body/mind is just there. It is there like a chair is there.
The chair is seen from the reference point of a human body/mind but the reference point itself is arising in awareness.

So:

Pure Awareness -> Human body/mind or any other life-form -> Perceived objects/world from the point of view of a body

Pure Awareness doesn't split up into these other parts but they arise in it. A human body/mind reference point does not have its own independent consciousness.
When the separate entity is "dropped" all there is left is pure awareness. The body and mind are still there, but they are not personal.
Also this experience is not a personal experience of an individual body and mind.
With the end of the person, it is also the end of all persons.
There has never been an enlightened separate entity. That is impossible.


One's point of reference is in relation to the observer and that which is observed .

If one relates what they are to be of a mind body experience then so be it .

That's why I said it matters not what you think you are, It matters not if you think you are separate or not you are still perceiving through such a point .

So when you conclude that awareness is awareness or something arises out of something then your point of self reference is at the heart of your understandings in relation to whatever that is .

If you perceive life as a dream then the dream is in relation to how you perceive what you are . There has to be a point of reference in relation to what you are and the dream .

x daz x

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 04:18 PM
One's point of reference is in relation to the observer and that which is observed .

If one relates what they are to be of a mind body experience then so be it .

That's why I said it matters not what you think you are, It matters not if you think you are separate or not you are still perceiving through such a point .

So when you conclude that awareness is awareness or something arises out of something then your point of self reference is at the heart of your understandings in relation to whatever that is .

If you perceive life as a dream then the dream is in relation to how you perceive what you are . There has to be a point of reference in relation to what you are and the dream .

x daz x

So in your model my point of reference would be that of pure awareness, right? Please say yes or I still don't understand :D

Miss Hepburn
07-01-2015, 04:25 PM
Hi luntrus,
Yes, my true state is bubbling like a puppy or a baby giggling.

But, for me, I only know this because of the stillness in meditation.
Ha, I do absolutely nothing and bingo...happiness, peace, contentment....
a feeling of all is perfect is there.
Not a plug for meditation...but, ah, the peace and joy that
bubbles up within when all is still is where it's at for me!

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 04:31 PM
Hi luntrus,
Yes, my true state is bubbling like a puppy or a baby giggling.

But, for me, I only know this because of the stillness in meditation.
Ha, I do absolutely nothing and bingo...happiness, peace, contentment....
a feeling of all is perfect is there.
Not a plug for meditation...but, ah, the peace and joy that
bubbles up within when all is still is where it's at for me!

Yes, there are many "portals" for us to put the separate entity on pause.
For some it is meditation, others listen to music or go into nature,
Meditation is probably the "purest portal" we can walk through in the waking state.
But formal meditation is not even necessary actually (although it has many other benefits).
The good stuff would be to know it not only in meditation but let it be your natural state (which it already is)


Luntrus

lemex
07-01-2015, 04:34 PM
It is our natural "state". It can't really be veiled, only seemingly.
The sun is shining even when there are clouds.
Only when we believe to be on the earth looking up at the sun, we seem to not see the sun when its a cloudy day.



The physical world doesn't seem to be set up for bliss, but is set up for balance which always happens. I sometimes think the material world is some kind of test. What is the norm, pain or happiness and why. Are we living only a norm. :smile:

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 04:51 PM
The physical world doesn't seem to be set up for bliss, but is set up for balance which always happens. I sometimes think the material world is some kind of test. What is the norm, pain or happiness and why. Are we living only a norm. :smile:

Yes, the physical world is a balance of polarities.
But what is it in which the physical world appears?
"THAT" doesn't have any polarities. We are not something in a physical world. That is what I mean that our true nature is happiness.
Happiness itself, not happiness of a person.

Luntrus

Ivy
07-01-2015, 05:14 PM
I'm with God-like in my understanding that happiness is a human emotion. You say it's not that type of happiness that has a polar opposite, but linguistically, happiness does have meaning and connotations within the make up of the mind. Whilst you have given it a new meaning that is personal to you, it can't be argued that happiness IS our natural state. Because it isn't, it's a word that has meaning in peoples minds.

So far (and I've only skimmed through) the really real nature of us all has been described as happiness, peace, joy, love, still, quiet, awareness, at ease, light and fluffy. That's 10 words all claiming to be the real reality, natural state, true self (more words).

I say 'being' and even that is one word more than is needed to be.

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 05:22 PM
I'm with God-like in my understanding that happiness is a human emotion. You say it's not that type of happiness that has a polar opposite, but linguistically, happiness does have meaning and connotations within the make up of the mind. Whilst you have given it a new meaning that is personal to you, it can't be argued that happiness IS our natural state. Because it isn't, it's a word that has meaning in peoples minds.



No, it is actually a word that is used for our true nature in Neo-Advaita circles, I just picked it up from Francis Lucille.
Watch the video, if you are interested (only 3 minutes), then you don't have to read it all :P
He basically says the same thing with a cooler accent.

Luntrus

lemex
07-01-2015, 05:54 PM
I'm with God-like in my understanding that happiness is a human emotion. You say it's not that type of happiness that has a polar opposite, but linguistically, happiness does have meaning and connotations within the make up of the mind. Whilst you have given it a new meaning that is personal to you, it can't be argued that happiness IS our natural state. Because it isn't, it's a word that has meaning in peoples minds.

So far (and I've only skimmed through) the really real nature of us all has been described as happiness, peace, joy, love, still, quiet, awareness, at ease, light and fluffy. That's 10 words all claiming to be the real reality, natural state, true self (more words).

I say 'being' and even that is one word more than is needed to be.

I purposely use the world bliss which some have experienced few times. It is so much different then happiness. I can't even remember why or when I did experience it. For me being older it is harder almost impossible now. You see I was never taught about this. I use the word almost only because if I did it once the potential must be there. In the experience you are in total peace more like a state of being. Is it even real or possible? Then the world came back in.

Is the experience real? If one continually tries to go through the metaphorical wall can one slip for a moment into the true self under the body where being resides. What I realize is the advantage of modern society were you are allowed to explore. Is it possible to experience the spiritual self. Unfortunately it takes years of study and practice right now hence the concept of a norm. Do we teach this way...... I'd say still not yet.

silent whisper
07-01-2015, 08:06 PM
[B][QUOTE=luntrusreality]Yes, there are many "portals" for us to put the separate entity on pause.
For some it is meditation, others listen to music or go into nature,
Meditation is probably the "purest portal" we can walk through in the waking state.
But formal meditation is not even necessary actually (although it has many other benefits).
The good stuff would be to know it not only in meditation but let it be your natural state (which it already is)

Yes be it as a walking meditation itself, as an integrated, fully living embodiment in this way.


There are many paths to experience ones true self centre, its making *connection* to you in the interaction with life in some form that opens up feeling and how you feel in you, what feelings no longer serve the true self and how it can feel in a more harmonised state of being in that state of balance.


Often *lifestyle* as *it is*will only show how we have integrated that embodiment in feeling thus far- what we know so far in experience, so life itself often continues to challenge us to find that centre and live it with awareness and understanding with all life. Many life experiences and interactions will continue awaken us to feel and maintain balance within.
Nature seeks balance. So really there is a constant purification through the experience of life occurring in every moment. It will call itself to both experience and purification to show you you.

Being fully present or mindful in each moment is good waking practice.
But how you understand, become aware is really just opening you to see how things can be in you and give you the choice, understanding, awakening to be something that your mind and feelings might tell you otherwise.



.........................:smile:

Ivy
07-01-2015, 09:03 PM
No, it is actually a word that is used for our true nature in Neo-Advaita circles, I just picked it up from Francis Lucille.
Watch the video, if you are interested (only 3 minutes), then you don't have to read it all :P
He basically says the same thing with a cooler accent.

Luntrus

Well since he is a Frenchman who learned about Advaita from another French man, who learned about Advaita from an Indian man, and I'm an English born, graduate of English - So I'm going to cheekily call you on the linguistics of this one.... I'm only jesting, that's not my style (it's just banter :D )

I think God-like said something along these lines earlier though - that you have found someone that uses this word with a shared resonance of meaning and that works for you. That's cool, but the meaning of happiness remains related to the emotion for the vast majority of people. So it is unwise at the moment to make claims that happiness is the true nature, simply because, for those that understand happiness as an emotion that is naturally fleeting, it would indicate that true nature comes and goes.

luntrusreality
07-01-2015, 09:15 PM
Well since he is a Frenchman who learned about Advaita from another French man, who learned about Advaita from an Indian man, and I'm an English born, graduate of English - So I'm going to cheekily call you on the linguistics of this one.... I'm only jesting, that's not my style (it's just banter :D )


:D Alright, fair enough !


I think God-like said something along these lines earlier though - that you have found someone that uses this word with a shared resonance of meaning and that works for you. That's cool, but the meaning of happiness remains related to the emotion for the vast majority of people. So it is unwise at the moment to make claims that happiness is the true nature, simply because, for those that understand happiness as an emotion that is naturally fleeting, it would indicate that true nature comes and goes.

Still, true happiness is not an emotion.
It is not a feeling in the body and it is usually uncaused by a specific object.
Happiness shines through (as our true nature) when the "person" is put on pause.
Person meaning: seeking and sense of lack or resistance to what is Now or anticipation of a better future etc.

So our true nature doesn't come and go, but rather other things come and go (as long as we believe to be a separate entity) and in the breaks of these other things happiness shines through.

What is this emotion happiness you talk about?
I know excitement, or ecstasy but the peaceful, "cool" happiness (cool meaning, very even and not agitated in this sense) is an impersonal experience, not an emotion a person has. Because when there is happiness, the person is gone.

Luntrus

Ivy
07-01-2015, 09:17 PM
I purposely use the world bliss which some have experienced few times. It is so much different then happiness. I can't even remember why or when I did experience it. For me being older it is harder almost impossible now. You see I was never taught about this. I use the word almost only because if I did it once the potential must be there. In the experience you are in total peace more like a state of being. Is it even real or possible? Then the world came back in.

Is the experience real? If one continually tries to go through the metaphorical wall can one slip for a moment into the true self under the body where being resides. What I realize is the advantage of modern society were you are allowed to explore. Is it possible to experience the spiritual self. Unfortunately it takes years of study and practice right now hence the concept of a norm. Do we teach this way...... I'd say still not yet.

Bliss is word number 11 here. And bliss is wonderful and perhaps has fewer connotations than happiness does. For me, I could genuinely say about many of these beautiful feelings, "I don't know what 'it' was, but the consequence was that it made me feel happy; blissful; deep love; peace" etc.

But when I am in that meditative state of 'being' there is nothing but being. When I am back in this sensory/emotional dimension - I interpret that experience in the only way that I know how = with my emotion and my aesthetic senses - from here it is absolute beauty/bliss/peace/love and all the words from god to happiness, that people choose for it.

But at the same time, it IS none of those emotions, but it doesn't matter, because from a human perspective, those emotions are wonderful to experience in themselves.

God-Like
08-01-2015, 09:24 AM
So in your model my point of reference would be that of pure awareness, right? Please say yes or I still don't understand :D


Based on my line of thought where 'One's point of reference is in relation to the observer and that which is observed' .

You perhaps declare that what you are is pure awareness . Awareness therefore in your eyes is the observer of awareness, and what is observed is awareness . So a point of reference had is a point within or of awareness .

However, if we relate your understandings to my analogy of sugar and the taste of sugar, and to a drop in the ocean and the ocean then I suggest that one's point of reference is either the drop of the ocean or the taste of sugar.

Can 'oneness' (the entire ocean) evaluate there is 'oneness' from a vantage point where 'oneness' is not 'oneness' .

Basically if one is the sugar or one is the ocean in entirety then there would be no (point) in awareness had that could ascertain / evaluate that one is the entire ocean or the sugar or awareness its self .

If one is the sugar or the ocean in entirety from a particular point within self then there would be no evaluation made that what one is, is that . It would be like when one is one in entirety from a point in awareness one would have no tongue to speak of such, One would not have the intellectual mind present to evaluate as such . There would be no-one in to attain any point in awareness .

Do you see what I mean it's like saying I am the moon in entirety, you know the moon over there high in the sky ...

The vantage point is one's reference point in relation to what they are, from a particular position in mind .

The fact that there is awareness pointing to awareness in that 'I am that' means that one's point of awareness or reference point is coming from where one is pointing from and not from where one is pointing too .

From where one is pointing from and to where one is pointing too doesn't mean separation but there is a point from where one is pointing .

Whist there is a point there is a reference of self and whilst there is a reference point of self there is not entirety had in awareness although there is no separation .

x daz x

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 09:33 AM
What else could be the observer of awareness other than awareness?
to claim it to be an experience something has to be known by some aware presence. is this aware presence really a separate reference point in the mind?

God-Like
08-01-2015, 09:36 AM
What else could be the observer of awareness other than awareness?
to claim it to be an experience something has to be known by some aware presence. is this aware presence really a separate reference point in the mind?

Some will say whatever one thinks they are, they are not ..

Would you say you are what you think you are ..

My last sentence in my post above mentions no separation between the perceiver and the perceived but makes note of one's point of reference .

The monkey perceives luntrus, the lion perceives the antelope . All are points of reference in relation to what they perceive themselves to be in relation to everything else .


x daz x

silent whisper
08-01-2015, 09:41 AM
What else could be the observer of awareness other than awareness?



to claim it to be an experience something has to be known by some aware presence. is this aware presence really a separate reference point in the mind?

Its a culmination of process into a state of you becoming aware, your story/experience building and creating the bridge to awareness, and realization at that point that awareness is you in the whole.

The realization at that point is that the whole process to awaken you to become aware of awareness, was awareness itself. And as the one being that as the experiencer of it all to that point, you are of course no longer separate in the experience of you here and now as it all is one as YOU.

(not sure if that makes sense or whether I missed something)

(was trying to flow, sense and articulate in me my experience )

OF course that bridge is just a symbol of movement and unifying, that I sense and interpret in my shifting into experience and realization within me..(so don't worry to much about my use of that term )

God-Like
08-01-2015, 09:49 AM
Or put it this way, can entirety perceive entirety from a point in/of entirety .


x daz x

silent whisper
08-01-2015, 09:54 AM
Or put it this way, can entirety perceive entirety from a point in/of entirety .


x daz x

What is you meaning of entirety when you look within yourself as that?

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 09:57 AM
Or put it this way, can entirety perceive entirety from a point in/of entirety .


x daz x

yes it can , there is nobody else there other than the entirety (awareness).
if a human body/mind is a reference point in your book, is it really the mind that experiences, or is the mind itself an experience?

God-Like
08-01-2015, 10:10 AM
What is you meaning of entirety when you look within yourself as that?

I am relating to points of awareness / perception / reference in regards to what we are .

I am suggesting that if one perceives through a point as in there is an observer observing the observed then it is likened to a drop in the ocean observing the ocean (or another drop in the ocean) .

Can the drop or one's point of reference perceive the entire ocean whist still attaining a point within or of it .

x daz x

God-Like
08-01-2015, 10:18 AM
yes it can , there is nobody else there other than the entirety (awareness).
if a human body/mind is a reference point in your book, is it really the mind that experiences, or is the mind itself an experience?

You see I have mentioned it matters not if someone is there or not but experience is still happening . We have established that what you see is different from what I see even though there is no separation between what we are and to that which is perceived differently .

When I had my realizations the universe was no more but it could be said that what you relate yourself to be, whether it is pure awareness was still in experience of it .

Your point of reference remained . If we were strictly joined at the hip then your point of awareness would of entertained no universe at the same point in time that I had (disappeared) . lols

I see the mind as the environment for experience to be . I don't see it that the mind experiences anything . The mind is likened to the artists canvas, it just provides the means for a painting to exist .



x daz x

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 10:32 AM
Your point of reference remained . If we were strictly joined at the hip then your point of awareness would of entertained no universe at the same point in time that I had (disappeared) . lols



My point of reference as this particular body/mind remained.
I am not saying that there are multiple experiences at the same time going on.
But they are all experienced with the knowing of awareness.
So our bodies are not joined at the hip (thank god :D) but the awareness that WE are (that I am) has experienced your experience just as much as "this" one.
What we are is dimensionless and unconditioned, not bound by one particular experience.
I get what you mean, but you are speaking of being this reference point.
That "my experience" is different to "your experience".
That is true, but what is it that experiences?
It is not a mind, it is not an object of any form.
Only because I don't have memories in 2this particular body/mind ("my mind") of your experience, does it mean that the experiencer is not the same?

silent whisper
08-01-2015, 10:47 AM
I am relating to points of awareness / perception / reference in regards to what we are .

I am suggesting that if one perceives through a point as in there is an observer observing the observed then it is likened to a drop in the ocean observing the ocean (or another drop in the ocean) .

Can the drop or one's point of reference perceive the entire ocean whist still attaining a point within or of it .

When you view the ocean from where you stand on the shore what is your point of reference to take in that view? Are you only using your eyes, or are you aware of the expanse of ocean as it is through your understanding of its expansiveness beyond that moment on the shore? The one who creates that point of reference is the one who understands the whole and makes that the point of reference..

x daz x

.............................

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 10:57 AM
There are two natural sides to reality, birth and death, positive and negative, and together they work hand in hand to create all things and ways.. Negative freed energy, and causes motion from one point to another, and thus creates positive. Positive ventures out from the space left from negative.. Startig at zero leaves us with a full potential to become anything and everything. You can not plant corn in a crop of already planted beans, no you just first harvest and remove the beans n order to make space for the corn. The two sides of positive and negative ensure that one thing becomes two.. To remove one's life is to allow that life to go free, into a new dimension or way, to be reaped and added to the totality of creation.. To bring birth into the world requires an act of love, and the act of creation brings us joy whereas the act of death and destruction brings us sorrow. The two states joy and sorrow are our natural emotions, however death, the reaping of the crop is an act of the unknown, being we do not know where death will lead us anew. The loss brings us sorrow, and yet so does life, being disconnected form the source of all that we come from.. Separation brings sorrow, loss, and as well brings new things, and new life to us, and to add to the totality of creation and destruction. Both life and death brings us both joy and sorrow.. But ultimately our natural state is everything, for we are created to create all possibility and all life, all ways and paths, and they all lead to the this totality. Every emotion and every feeling is our natural state of omnipresence and omnipotency. This means we are everything and we are nothing, totally complete and totally free, totally all ways and no ways.

God-Like
08-01-2015, 11:03 AM
My point of reference as this particular body/mind remained.



Yes, and it matters not what such a point is, it matters that a point is, and that a point remained .

When niz realized self, I was probably out playing on my bike or playing football or eating burgers, or liver and cabbage if my mum had anything to do with it :)

So there is a sense of being in or of awareness with points of reference otherwise we would all be in experience of the same thing at the same time .

This has been my point (excuse the pun) all along . The very fact that you perceive self as pure awareness illustrates that you indeed have a point in reference relating what you are to being pure awareness .

Now we have hopefully established this point of reference thingy ma jig I ask you to try and perceive the entire ocean / self / awareness (whatever word suits) from the same point of self reference that you did when you concluded that what you are is pure awareness or from the same point of self reference when I was playing on my bike and you were dancing the tango, and then get back to me . :)

I haven't for the record spoke of one 'being' this reference point but rather the reference point is in relation to the observer and that which is observed .

It is however a point of reference that is in relation to what one perceives themselves to be but the point of reference it's self is just a point .

If all there is is what you are then it could be said that even the point is what you are . Everything is .


Only because I don't have memories in 2this particular body/mind ("my mind") of your experience, does it mean that the experiencer is not the same?


I agree that the experiencer is the same experiencer and that's why I speak of no separation but it doesn't nullify one's diverse experiences had in relation to what one relates themselves to be . You your self have agreed with multiple experiences happening at the same time and it is these multiple experiences had that entertain multiple points of self reference, otherwise one would not be able to distinquish if I had gone to work today or whether or not is was you that did .

x daz x

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 11:09 AM
And where does then your idea of "individual consciousness" come from if the experiencer (the consciousness) is the same?

Who/what are you?
The reference point relating to itself as a consciousness? Or the consciousness which is experiencing this.
The consciousness in which the contemplation of itself through the human mind happens.
This is what I mean that there is no individual consciousness. Not even "individual experiences".
Just multiple experiences "for" the one consciousness that "we" are.
In some of these experiences it can happen that there is "enlightenment" and the sense of separation falls away.
It is just as much consciousness experiencing itself as if there isn't enlightenment. Not by individual consciousnesses. What properties would the individual consciousness have?
Only the individual consciousness, not thoughts, memories and experiences that happen in consciousness.
You can't find properties of the "individual consciousness" that are any different from the one consciousness. The only two properties are : Knowing (as in being aware) and Being.
Why then assume the CONSCIOUSNESS, not the particular experience, is individuated?

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 11:20 AM
There is both the known and the unknown. The question and the answer. Any question may be posed and any answer to gleam. The truth... will set you free!

God-Like
08-01-2015, 11:29 AM
When you view the ocean from where you stand on the shore what is your point of reference to take in that view?


I am aware that I am aware of the ocean . My point of reference is that I exist as does the ocean . What I am is not separate from the ocean but there are differences had within our design / properties and that can reflect within our experiences / notions had of each other . My point of reference is that I exist in mind where I can make reference to what I am and what is perceived through such a point of reference .




Are you only using your eyes, or are you aware of the expanse of ocean as it is through your understanding of its expansiveness beyond that moment on the shore? The one who creates that point of reference is the one who understands the whole and makes that the point of reference..



For sure .. it does depend on how one perceives what they do . If one perceives something with intellectual reasoning or with an emotional charge or just gazing unwittingly at the sky for instance then what is perceived will be in relation to how they perceive . These are all points within points in relation to self and what is perceived .

I understand your thoughts when you say 'The one who creates that point of reference is the one who understands the whole and makes that the point of reference..

but somewhere in between there is a point where one doesn't know or realize or understand or agree with that notion so that emphasises my point about the drops of the ocean and the ocean .

x daz x

God-Like
08-01-2015, 11:55 AM
And where does then your idea of "individual consciousness" come from if the experiencer (the consciousness) is the same?




I don't see individuality as separate from the whole but rather like peas from the same pod .

Who/what are you?



Lets put it this way in the realization of what you are there is only what you are in relation to no self / no mind / no universe / no light . Within mind there is what you are relation to self so whatever IS, within mind is what you are .


The reference point relating to itself as a consciousness? Or the consciousness which is experiencing this.



I say often that what we are is experiencing what we are and find that works well . When I engaged with the consciousness and awareness discussions it was just like explaining what a knife is used for in comparison to a fork . There is a process of design that allows one to know / understand what they are in relation to self . What we are is everything that is of the mind and beyond, there is only what we are .

In regards to consciousness as mentioned earlier it is the means to know what self appears to be in mind . What we are is experiencing a conscious self, consciousness is not experiencing anything, what we are is experiencing consciousness .

x daz x

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 12:02 PM
What we are is experiencing a conscious self, consciousness is not experiencing anything, what we are is experiencing consciousness .



If what we are is experiencing consciousness, what we are must be aware, right? Otherwise how would an experience be possible?

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 12:03 PM
One way exists, then two and three and so on, it creates direction.. Just because one way exists does not mean we can not choose another way, or from the fertile empty field create a totally new direction.. now we have an infinite number of ways, and all in one, and all expanding forever creating newness and life's choice..

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 12:11 PM
One way exists, then two and three and so on, it creates direction.. Just because one way exists does not mean we can not choose another way, or from the fertile empty field create a totally new direction.. now we have an infinite number of ways, and all in one, and all expanding forever creating newness and life's choice..

I didn't understand your post, what do you mean by directions. Directions to what? To Happiness?

God-Like
08-01-2015, 12:25 PM
If what we are is experiencing consciousness, what we are must be aware, right? Otherwise how would an experience be possible?

Consciousness and awareness are means for 'what we are' to be consciously aware of 'what we are' within mind .

Thats why 'what we are' is consciously aware of what that is .

x daz x

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 12:26 PM
I didn't understand your post, what do you mean by directions. Directions to what? To Happiness?One becomes two, like a woman giving birth.. one road splits into two.. it create individuality.. separation and division... you ask why individual, and yet one becomes two, one road splits to create more then one desitination more then one choice.. division and separation create direction which is needed for choice.. now we have not just one life but infinite life, and directions.. we have choice.. and it is more infinite then one realizes, going far beyond one dimension of Earth but into infinite dimension of onipresence, and omnipotency.. one plaits to become two and yet all this life, and all this way is always added again to the source, the one... it create the body of creation, which is any and every way/choice. Not just to happiness but to everything at once.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 12:31 PM
Consciousness and awareness are means for 'what we are' to be consciously aware of 'what we are' within mind .

Thats why 'what we are' is consciously aware of what that is .


So if I understand you correctly:

"What we are" -> Awareness/Consciousness -> "What we are"

Is this your direct experience?
Or is your direct experience in THIS moment that you are just aware of experiencing?
Do you ever experience "what you are" outside of awareness? What would have an experience which is not experienced? What would that be and who could claim to have had such an experience if there
was no awareness?
If not, how do you know that "what we are" is not awareness, but uses awareness as a means to know itself?

Luntrus

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 01:00 PM
IN other words lun, we are merely creating directions, destinations, fullfilling possibilities and potential to add to the total collective of the omni.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 01:07 PM
IN other words lun, we are merely creating directions, destinations, fullfilling possibilities and potential to add to the total collective of the omni.

Who is this "we" that is creating anything?
That is what I mean.

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 01:13 PM
Life creates life.. we are given life, to live and to create. it is a gift to us, and in living life we add to its totality. Infinity perpetuates itself through life, and giving birth, from creating and form dreaming.. we have creative facilities like the imagination, in which we create from.. we create new things all the time, inventions etc. we channel, and we do anything we put our minds/will to. You speak of awareness and consciousness but you leave out the intent and the will, which are not things to be missed out on discovering... we will life to live and intend to sustain it. our awareness lives because we intend it and we will it to live.. our knowledge also sustains it, but not without the intent and the will..

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 01:15 PM
it is in the math, and math is everything.. 1+1=2 says it all..

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 01:16 PM
Life creates life.. we are given life, to live and to create. it is a gift to us, and in living life we add to its totality.

Life can't create new life. It is already all there ever is.
Only new forms and manifestations that are ever-changing and fleeting.
But in reality, nothing new comes into existence and nothing that exists (life) can ever not exist.

So who is given life?
A human body/mind? Yes it is created by life, but are we a human body/mind?

Luntrus

God-Like
08-01-2015, 01:19 PM
So if I understand you correctly:

"What we are" -> Awareness/Consciousness -> "What we are"

Is this your direct experience?
Or is your direct experience in THIS moment that you are just aware of experiencing?
Do you ever experience "what you are" outside of awareness? What would have an experience which is not experienced? What would that be and who could claim to have had such an experience if there
was no awareness?
If not, how do you know that "what we are" is not awareness, but uses awareness as a means to know itself?

Luntrus




'What we are' is consciously aware of 'what we are' .

In the absence of consciousness and awareness what we are still remains . (beyond mind)

'What we are' beyond mind isn't anything for anyone to relate too . There is no point of reference . Nothing to be conscious of nor aware of . No-one to be conscious nor aware .

Only within mind can one relate to what is beyond, that is why 'I' and many speak of what we are to be this and that (only after the realization) for during the realization one is the ocean not the drop and there are no means to relate to what is happening or what is beyond .

There is no-one to be in direct experience of the realization, there is only what one concludes after the event .

It's like one can relate to being asleep by comparing what it is like to be awake . There has to be comparison of both states to know either state .

Self and no self, mind and no mind allows comparison to be had in relation to what we are that is of the mind and beyond .

What I have ascertained (within mind) is that what you are is within and beyond .

I am aware that I am existing within mind because I am aware of a self that is in experience .

There is no experience/r beyond there is no awareness present . There is only awareness when there is thought of one that is aware .

x daz x

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 01:27 PM
In the absence of consciousness and awareness what we are still remains . (beyond mind)
How do you know? Is this a belief or direct experience?
If it is a belief, it is hard to find common ground. If it is direct experience, there must have been awareness. Experience can not happen without it. The experience and the experiencer are One.
If there was only experience but no experiencer then how do you know?



There is only awareness when there is thought of one that is aware .


So a newborn baby is not aware? Maybe not aware of being a baby, of being a human body/mind as a thought. But there is awareness.
Just like in deep sleep, there is awareness.

Luntrus

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 01:31 PM
Life can't create new life. It is already all there ever is.
Only new forms and manifestations that are ever-changing and fleeting.
But in reality, nothing new comes into existence and nothing that exists (life) can ever not exist.

So who is given life?
A human body/mind? Yes it is created by life, but are we a human body/mind?

Luntrus

Infinity is infinite. limitless, all is possible, including newness and growth, and expansion..

You can make anything you want with your life.. including uncharted and new terrain..

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 01:34 PM
I can indeed give birth to new life and new creation.. I discovered the source of reality and it is anything and everything... Infinite.. vast and all yes. but all includes new..

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 01:36 PM
Infinity is infinite. limitless, all is possible, including newness and growth, and expansion..

I agree, there are absolutely no limits in creation.
But Awareness is prior to all creation. It is what creation is made out of.

You can make anything you want with your life.. including uncharted and new terrain..

From the perspective of a body/mind not. I can't suddenly fly now.
But from the "perspective" of awareness (which is the only reality) everything that happens is already exactly what I want to happen.
There is no such thing as "my life". Only a body/mind appearing IN life. This life is awareness.

Luntrus

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 01:38 PM
I can indeed give birth to new life and new creation.. I discovered the source of reality and it is anything and everything... Infinite.. vast and all yes. but all includes new..

Yes, as Awareness you can.
As a human body/mind you can't do anything.

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 01:59 PM
i am my awareness of my body.. my awareness shifts my body.. i have been many animals already, light, ghost, shadow, and have even flown into the air above the trees. The first time I did I looked at my feet while in the air and in doing so planted my feet back onto the ground instantly and in doing so stretched my body and legs all the way to the ground. anything is possible when you seek it, believe it or know it to be so..

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 02:05 PM
You have not even been MANY animals but ALL animals. Not "have been" but right now even.
What is it that experiences all of this?
What doesn't change in all the bodies you might experience?

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 02:11 PM
Yes you are right, but now I am in the form of man and my awareness is not aware of the totality at this time. I am actually energy, my consciousness makes me youthful and so I am old but in the form of a 25 year old.. that is my choice, as well as not to be in the totality position of omni.. I am living a sorcerer's dream which was my choice from creation to live as such.. I am not a dog right now nor wolf nor dragon.. I am a singular energy generating being in a world of other energy generating beings, all living their creative existences as per my choice.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 02:15 PM
Yes you are right, but now I am in the form of man and my awareness is not aware of the totality at this time. I am actually energy, my consciousness makes me youthful and so I am old but in the form of a 25 year old.. that is my choice, as well as not to be in the totality position of omni.. I am living a sorcerer's dream which was my choice from creation to live as such.. I am not a dog right now nor wolf nor dragon.. I am a singular energy generating being in a world of other energy generating beings, all living their creative existences as per my choice.

So you have memories of past lives etc, thats fine
But what is it that has never changed?
What is the common ground to all your experience?
The "I" right? "I" experience. This "I" is our true nature which doesn't lack anything and is therefore "happy and peaceful". (as a description , not as a human emotion)

Luntrus

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 02:27 PM
Not all life is happy and peaceful... Life has become all things and ways, not just love and peace.. all things make a choice from and of all things..

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 02:37 PM
Not all life is happy and peaceful... Life has become all things and ways, not just love and peace.. all things make a choice from and of all things..

What do you mean not "all life"? There is only life.
And this life doesn't lack anything because it is the totality of all there will ever be and is.
This life is awareness. This awareness right now. Not an awareness that we can sometimes access through meditation. That is the same awaraness.

Gem
08-01-2015, 02:40 PM
What do you mean not "all life"? There is only life.
And this life doesn't lack anything because it is the totality of all there will ever be and is.
This life is awareness. This awareness right now. Not an awareness that we can sometimes access through meditation. That is the same awaraness.

Hehehehe, try tellin' that to a meditator.

God-Like
08-01-2015, 02:44 PM
How do you know? Is this a belief or direct experience?




I have made sense of what occurred after the realization .

Only in mind in relation to self can one say that there is no self beyond and no awareness beyond .

Beyond mind there is no experience/r of anything so how can there be direct experience of no awareness when no awareness is present .

It became an experience the moment I was aware of self within mind having realized what is beyond .


So a newborn baby is not aware? Maybe not aware of being a baby, of being a human body/mind as a thought. But there is awareness.
Just like in deep sleep, there is awareness.



A new born baby is aware of something in relation to something . A new born baby feels hungry does it not . It is aware of it's hunger .

It is aware that there is hunger felt in relation to what it is that feels hungry . There doesn't require the knowing of what it is that feels hungry .

So only in reference to their being something in mind is there awareness of that .

The thought that I am hungry is self in awareness of hunger .


x daz x

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 02:49 PM
yes life is now, but cut your hand and pass it over a flame that burns hot.. you will soon see that all of life is not happy.. sure you can tame the flame and make it not burn, but you can also make it hurt.. if you have not mastered all of the elements then life is not always peaches and candy.. sure positive choices and living only now can make life blissful and powerful but not all people are masters of reality, thus not all of life is peaches and candy.. people suffer.. I mean i do not want this, and do not want to judge it, but i unched a wall the other day and have not mastered pain completely yet and it hurt.. still does.. I can make the pain leave yes, and i heal very fast, but nontheless it hurt.. and i was not happy.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 02:53 PM
yes life is now, but cut your hand and pass it over a flame that burns hot.. you will soon see that all of life is not happy.. sure you can tame the flame and make it not burn, but you can also make it hurt.. if you have not mastered all of the elements then life is not always peaches and candy.. sure positive choices and living only now can make life blissful and powerful but not all people are masters of reality, thus not all of life is peaches and candy.. people suffer.. I mean i do not want this, and do not want to judge it, but i unched a wall the other day and have not mastered pain completely yet and it hurt.. still does.. I can make the pain leave yes, and i heal very fast, but nontheless it hurt.. and i was not happy.

I am not talking about bodily pain.
I am talking about the happiness that goes beyond bodily emotions and sensations.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 02:54 PM
Hehehehe, try tellin' that to a meditator.

I wouldn't dare :D ...or would I :cool:

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 02:56 PM
@God-like

What is this mind you talk about?
Maybe we use mind differently.
For me "mind" is the combination of thoughts, emotions, feelings and sense perception.
This "mind" is not a real entity.
There can not be something "in the mind". The mind itself is IN awareness.

Gem
08-01-2015, 02:56 PM
I wouldn't dare :D ...or would I :cool:

Oh, that's right, I'm right into meditation... what am I saying?

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 03:00 PM
I am not talking about bodily pain.
I am talking about the happiness that goes beyond bodily emotions and sensations.
It is still life dude.. all, everything is life, including sorrow and pain.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 03:00 PM
Oh, that's right, I'm right into meditation... what am I saying?

Absolutely nothing wrong with meditation.
I sometimes do it myself, just don't have a regular formal practice.

I was just saying that awareness is never changing. Whether we are in a deep meditative state or totally thought identified or watching a movie.
The awareness is always aware and never more or less deep.

Not hatin against the meditatin here!
Luntrus

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 03:02 PM
It is still life dude.. all, everything is life, including sorrow and pain.

Yes of course! Sorrow and pain arise and are made out of life.
But they are not our true unconditioned, dimensionless nature.
Otherwise there would always only be pain and sorrow. and everything would arise out of that.
But all there ever is is "happiness" even when there is sadness.

True happiness is not a personal emotion. The effects of it might express themselves in the body as a pleasant feeling.
But happiness is impersonal. It just seems to be veiled by all the seeking and resistance to what already is.
When there is no more separate entity, happiness is the only reality.

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 03:16 PM
WHen I went to the source of all life it was intensity and all things at once, simultaneously everything. But in my opinion life is natural in every state and way because infinity perpetuates all things of creation endlessly, thus all things are the natural state of being. Our natural state is just to be, whatever it is we are being..

God-Like
08-01-2015, 03:18 PM
@God-like

What is this mind you talk about?
Maybe we use mind differently.
For me "mind" is the combination of thoughts, emotions, feelings and sense perception.
This "mind" is not a real entity.
There can not be something "in the mind". The mind itself is IN awareness.

Is see the mind as an arena for self to be in existence .

The mind is the environment for self to experience thought, emotion, feelings and a sense of perception .

Everything arises within mind .

Everything is in or of the mind, for it houses self in experience .


If the mind was likened to a pond, then everything that the pond contains is in or of the mind .

The frogs and the fish are aware of themselves to some degree cos the mind / pond exists that allows them to experience what they are . :fish: :kermit:

x daz x

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 03:18 PM
WHen I went to the source of all life it was intensity and all things at once, simultaneously everything. But in my opinion life is natural in every state and way because infinity perpetuates all things of creation endlessly, thus all things are the natural state of being. Our natural state is just to be, whatever it is we are being..

With that I would agree :
"Our natural state is just to be" .
But does the being itself lack something or change its forms?
The forms that arise in and out of being change. But the aware presence of being does not change and is complete in itself.
Therefore it doesn't lack or fear anything and could be described as
"happy or peaceful". But these words seem to be too much for many.

Luntrus

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 03:21 PM
Is see the mind as an arena for self to be in existence .

The mind is the environment for self to experience thought, emotion, feelings and a sense of perception .

Everything arises within mind .

Everything is in or of the mind, for it houses self in experience .


If the mind was likened to a pond, then everything that the pond contains is in or of the mind .

The frogs and the fish are aware of themselves to some degree cos the mind / pond exists that allows them to experience what they are . :fish: :kermit:

x daz x

In this description Awareness NEEDS the mind to know itself.
If the mind is an arena for awareness to be inside of, then the mind would be an independent reality and not awareness.
Awareness could come and go but the mind would stay.

Is this your experience? That awareness comes and goes but the mind stays?

In my experience it is the other way around.
The mind comes and goes - in deep sleep there is no mind.
Awareness stays - in deep sleep there is still awareness.

Awareness never leaves but the mind does.
So Awareness has to be primary to the existence of the mind.

Luntrus

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 03:25 PM
Every life is natural, and when a baby cries at birth that is natural too. The baby is being unhappy thus its natural expression is to be upset.. when the baby recieves for the first time it's mother's tender positive love then it becomes happy and has learned of positive generating energy.. when it gets in trouble it learns negative, or when it gets hurt it learns negative.. all states of being from our unformed potential are learned from experience.. which is natural. positive and negative produce all things to experience.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 03:26 PM
Every life is natural, and when a baby cries at birth that is natural too. The baby is being unhappy thus its natural expression is to be upset.. when the baby recieves for the first time it's mother's tender positive love then it becomes happy and has learned of positive generating energy.. when it gets in trouble it learns negative, or when it gets hurt it learns negative.. all states of being from our unformed potential are learned from experience.. which is natural. positive and negative produce all things to experience.

You didn't answer my question though:
Does the presence of being ever change?
no matter if we are a tree or a baby or a dog or a superintelligent philosopher?
What is the common reality of all these expressions of life?

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 03:30 PM
To be or not to be - that is the question.. every answer may be, and the truth will set you FREE, and so decide my friend decide? Or jump on in and find out the unknown answer for YOUR being.

God-Like
08-01-2015, 03:35 PM
In this description Awareness NEEDS the mind to know itself.
If the mind is an arena for awareness to be inside of, then the mind would be an independent reality and not awareness.
Awareness could come and go but the mind would stay.

Is this your experience? That awareness comes and goes but the mind stays?

In my experience it is the other way around.
The mind comes and goes - in deep sleep there is no mind.
Awareness stays - in deep sleep there is still awareness.

Awareness never leaves but the mind does.
So Awareness has to be primary to the existence of the mind.

Luntrus

The mind is just an environment .

The mind is not aware of the mind and awareness isn't something that needs to know anything .

What we are is aware of what we are in or of mind because the mind entertain there being a self .

There is always awareness in mind whilst self exists, awareness doesn't come and go unless there is no existence happening in mind in totality .

I am not sure what deep sleep is to be honest, I just relate to self always being aware of self whilst in or of the mind .

Nothing sleeps lightly or deeply in my understanding .


x daz x

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 03:38 PM
I will ignore the poem or whatnot :P This is the important part:

answer for YOUR being.

This is exactly what I am trying to say.
What is this being ?

Not a body. Because the body changes all the time.
Not a mind - because it disappears while awareness remains.

Not some object we perceive because they change and disappear as well.

That which never changes, and that which cant be any further reduced is just the pure knowing of awareness.
It never leaves our experience because it is that which experience arises in.

One last try :D
When I say our true nature is happiness, I use the word synonymously with the knowing of this true nature.
Happiness might be felt as the opposite of sadness or just another human emotion but it is actually the cesation of all other emotions.
The moment when seeking and resistance is gone and there is no lack or fear.
A silent moment in nature for example can be a portal for some people who "still believe to be a separate entity".
In this moment the separate entity is put on pause - happiness can shine through.

Luntrus

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 03:40 PM
The mind is just an environment .

The mind is not aware of the mind and awareness isn't something that needs to know anything .

What we are is aware of what we are in or of mind because the mind entertain there being a self .

There is always awareness in mind whilst self exists, awareness doesn't come and go unless there is no existence happening in mind in totality .

I am not sure what deep sleep is to be honest, I just relate to self always being aware of self whilst in or of the mind .

Nothing sleeps lightly or deeply in my understanding .


x daz x

Have you ever experienced this "mind" environment directly without awareness?
I'm not trying to be annoying :P just point to the fact that no experience can ever be outside awareness.
This mind-environment you speak of can only be an experience if there is an aware presence to experience it.

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 03:43 PM
I will ignore the poem or whatnot :P This is the important part:



This is exactly what I am trying to say.
What is this being ?

Not a body. Because the body changes all the time.
Not a mind - because it disappears while awareness remains.

Not some object we perceive because they change and disappear as well.

That which never changes, and that which cant be any further reduced is just the pure knowing of awareness.
It never leaves our experience because it is that which experience arises in.

One last try :D
When I say our true nature is happiness, I use the word synonymously with the knowing of this true nature.
Happiness might be felt as the opposite of sadness or just another human emotion but it is actually the cesation of all other emotions.
The moment when seeking and resistance is gone and there is no lack or fear.
A silent moment in nature for example can be a portal for some people who "still believe to be a separate entity".
In this moment the separate entity is put on pause - happiness can shine through.

Luntrus

The fluid waters are also part of life/creation.. thus things change so not always to be the same.. things always change and yet all things are also retained.. earth wind fire water spirit, all elements of creation, as well as what is beyond and unknown to us.. not yet made into creation.. the unknowable..

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 03:48 PM
The fluid waters are also part of life/creation.. thus things change so not always to be the same.. things always change and yet all things are also retained.. earth wind fire water spirit, all elements of creation, as well as what is beyond and unknown to us.. not yet made into creation.. the unknowable..

You said it yourself. THINGS always change.
Awareness of things doesn't.

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 03:49 PM
I also ssaid there is perfect retention, things are fluid and in motion like water, and solid like stone.. it is a choice.. tings may change or things may not.. to be or not to be was not just a dumb poem.. things have meaning i do not say them otherwise..

there is even adam-ment-ium if you can believe it

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 04:13 PM
I also said there is perfect retention.. things can also never change.. it is a choice to be or not to be.. we are given life and choice both

What would "not-being" look like?
Nothingness? How could something that is disappear into nothingness or arise out of nothingness?
No, being is not a choice. It is.

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 04:20 PM
In my reality their was such as a thing as oblivion and ceasing to be.. things that were evil or not any longer needed were cast into nothingness.. in my reality, my choice with God I took it away. when i asked God for this he took me out and showed me that He could cast me into oblivion and then He tried and I stopped Hi from doing it... I had known that only God could do this, and since I asked Him to make me perfectly capable of intending not to be made into oblivion he tried and I succeeded in stopping Him. It was the essence of my choice with God. I had already given my life to God at that point in time.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 04:22 PM
In my reality their was such as a thing as oblivion and ceasing to be.. things that were evil or not any longer needed were cast into nothingness.. in my reality, my choice with God I took it away. when i asked God for this he took me out and showed me that He could cast me into oblivion and then He tried and I stopped Hi from doing it... I had known that only God could do this, and since I asked Him to make me perfectly capable of intending not to be made into oblivion he tried and I succeeded in stopping Him. It was the essence of my choice with God. I had already given my life to God at that point in time.

If there was an experience of non-being, how can you claim it to be an experience?
If it was non-being it would just not be there and you wouldn't even know it.

Luntrus

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 04:22 PM
Of course I trusted God to give me anything I asked of Him.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 04:27 PM
Of course I trusted God to give me anything I asked of Him.

So it was an experience, right?
If something is an experience, there is being.
There is no such thing as non-being, it would never be our experience.

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 04:32 PM
No, He didn't cast it onto me, I stopped it I said, because I asked Him to make me invincible to it. I felt it, and saw it though, and other things from Hell too then, but God helped me and saved us all then.. It is not an experience I usually share openly with people.. They couldn't understand but suffice to say there was oblivion in my world, but you would just end and no longer be if He cast it onto you.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 04:36 PM
No, He didn't cast it onto me, I stopped it I said, because I asked Him to make me invincible to it. I felt it, and saw it though, and other things from Hell too then, but God helped me and saved us all then.. It is not an experience I usually share openly with people.. They couldn't understand but suffice to say there was oblivion in my world, but you would just end and no longer be if He cast it onto you.

So there would still be God.
Didn't you just say non-being is possible?
If there is still God then there is being.
God is everything there is.
Awareness = God

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 04:38 PM
So there would still be God.
Didn't you just say non-being is possible?
If there is still God then there is being.
God is everything there is.
Awareness = God

there would be being yes, but not for you, just for God and rest of creation, if He cast it onto you, your being would be lost and not just changing but ended. I didn't say there was no-being, I said there WAS.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 04:40 PM
there would be being yes, but not for you, just for God and rest of creation, if He cast it onto you, your being would be lost and not just changing but ended. I didn't say there was no-being, I said there WAS.

Who is this "you" you refer to?
This body/mind? I agree. This body/mind had a beginning and will have an end.
But I am not a body/mind.
I am the awareness in which a body and a mind appear and are made out of.
This can never disappear by God's will because "it" and God are the same.
God doesn't make himself disappear.

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 04:48 PM
No, God can make anything vanish away. Life and death, He commands both. Are you saying you are God again? Because you are not! Neither am I. God is omnipotent and can do anything, including ending your existence and denying you to merge again with His totality. God is Judge. If he commands your ending then ending you shall receive.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 04:53 PM
No, God can make anything vanish away. Life and death, He commands both. Are you saying you are God again? Because you are not! Neither am I. God is omnipotent and can do anything, including ending your existence and denying you to merge again with His totality. God is Judge. If he commands your ending then ending you shall receive.

I am sorry, you are losing me here a little, because I don't really want to go into religion.
I am saying that what the Bible is actually pointing to is that EVERYTHING is God and yes, you and me are both God. Because there is no "you" and "me" , only God.
There is no God who has a will or a judgement. This is a reflection of the human mind that believes to function God in similar ways of "right and wrong" judgement and agena.
But God is just pure Being, Life - the only thing there is.


Luntrus

Ivy
08-01-2015, 04:54 PM
:D Alright, fair enough !



Still, true happiness is not an emotion.
It is not a feeling in the body and it is usually uncaused by a specific object.
Happiness shines through (as our true nature) when the "person" is put on pause.
Person meaning: seeking and sense of lack or resistance to what is Now or anticipation of a better future etc.

So our true nature doesn't come and go, but rather other things come and go (as long as we believe to be a separate entity) and in the breaks of these other things happiness shines through.

What is this emotion happiness you talk about?
I know excitement, or ecstasy but the peaceful, "cool" happiness (cool meaning, very even and not agitated in this sense) is an impersonal experience, not an emotion a person has. Because when there is happiness, the person is gone.

Luntrus

Happiness is the word that you have chosen and given meaning to. At last count there were 11 other words that the collection of people have chosen to denote a feeling within them.

So it becomes futile to argue that happiness is not one meaning, but is another meaning. It misunderstands the arbitrary nature of words and the way in which language is created.

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 04:58 PM
I am sorry, you are losing me here a little, because I don't really want to go into religion.
I am saying that what the Bible is actually pointing to is that EVERYTHING is God and yes, you and me are both God. Because there is no "you" and "me" , only God.
There is no God who has a will or a judgement. This is a reflection of the human mind that believes to function God in similar ways of "right and wrong" judgement and agena.
But God is just pure Being, Life - the only thing there is.


Luntrus

God gives us, and gave us life of our own. Our own choice to make apart from Him or with Him. You must choose God in order to have Him in your life. You give God glory and Power, and that is good, but you have accpeted that with your choice, and you follow yourself more then Him. Others have not even given Him any power. Some people say God is dead, and for them God does not answer their prayers. He says you must choose Him, trust Him and give Him Power and Glory. If you give God no power and trust then you are on your own.. I know this, and see it everywhere.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 05:00 PM
@Ivy,

In spirituality, where we talk about something that is in the end unimaginable by the mind and undescribable with words there will always be a little misunderstanding possible.
Every word has associations, no word is completetly true.
We use the words that seem to be closest to what we want to describe.

In a spiritual context if we use words like God , Happy, Being etc.
they don't necessarily need to have the same meaning we usually in conventional discussions use them for.

This is the problem with language and spirituality and this is why we have to be willing to accept the limitations of words and make the best of it.

I was just trying to say that the happiness we describe as an emotion is not actually an emotion itself.
The emotion is an after effect in the body.
Happiness itself is always uncaused by any object. Only seemingly an object like "being in nature" or "christmas" or "seeing a family member" or "a new ipad" causes happiness.
But these objects are not the root cause of happiness.
They are just a portal through which happiness can shine even through the separate entity, because it temporarily lifts the burden of being separate - we become full for a little while.
When there is no more separate entity, then happiness is all that is "left" and seen to be all there really ever was.

So, it is not like I use the word Happiness for Awareness and don't really mean happiness, I really mean that Happiness is not an emotion like sadness.
Not its polar opposite.
Happiness is not-lacking, Peace is not-fearing.

Luntrus

blackraven
08-01-2015, 05:09 PM
It is our natural "state". It can't really be veiled, only seemingly.
The sun is shining even when there are clouds.
Only when we believe to be on the earth looking up at the sun, we seem to not see the sun when its a cloudy day.


"I was happy before the body wakes up in the morning."
"Happiness is never personal. We have to understand that happiness is simply our true nature being aware of itself."
Francis Lucille about Happiness as our true nature. (3:30 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usr5eLt57Q8 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwat ch%3Fv%3DUsr5eLt57Q8)

luntrusreality - One can't know happiness without having awareness of or experiencing sadness. Both I feel are states of mind. Sometimes people choose to be sad or happy and sometimes emotions just happen.

Blackraven

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 05:13 PM
luntrusreality - One can't know happiness without having awareness of or experiencing sadness. Both I feel are states of mind. Sometimes people choose to be sad or happy and sometimes emotions just happen.

Blackraven


Hi, Blackraven, I just quote my post from a few seconds ago again because it adresses that.


I was just trying to say that the happiness we describe as an emotion is not actually an emotion itself.
The emotion is an after effect in the body.
Happiness itself is always uncaused by any object. Only seemingly an object like "being in nature" or "christmas" or "seeing a family member" or "a new ipad" causes happiness.
But these objects are not the root cause of happiness.
They are just a portal through which happiness can shine even through the separate entity, because it temporarily lifts the burden of being separate - we become full for a little while.
When there is no more separate entity, then happiness is all that is "left" and seen to be all there really ever was.

So, it is not like I use the word Happiness for Awareness and don't really mean happiness, I really mean that Happiness is not an emotion like sadness.
Not its polar opposite.
Happiness is not-lacking, Peace is not-fearing.

Also to add:
Love is non-separation
But Peace, Love and Happiness are all the same experience. It is what we ARE. Not something we experience as something else.

Ivy
08-01-2015, 05:21 PM
And if I argued that happiness is an emotional feeling and is known in by its comparative meaning to other emotional meanings. I would be equally correct as you, because happiness is not an object of fact, it is a word ascribed to a feeling.

To convey a feeling that has no agreed upon word, we can describe it using the many descriptive language techniques available to us. We don't need to give it a single name. Moreover, it is more misleading to borrow a name given to a common emotion and argue that it's agreed upon meaning is wrong, and 'really' it means something completely different.

To me happiness is a pleasurable state of being that compares with a less pleasurable state of being, and also a more pleasurable state of being.

Thus, the common, never changing state in all of that is better described as 'being'... without words that connote pleasure or displeasure added onto it. It's difficult to imagine more being or less being, but being more happy or less happy, the majority of people relate to.

BlueSky
08-01-2015, 05:33 PM
Try smiling with your heart and it becomes immediately known that there is something primordial about how that feels.

Shabby
08-01-2015, 05:41 PM
Emotions are reactions...feelings are divine. There are only three divine feelings: Love, Peace and Joy. These feelings are not dependent on any "outside" source. Feelings are aspects of our true Self.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 05:42 PM
Emotions are reactions...feelings are divine. There are only three divine feelings: Love, Peace and Joy. These feelings are not dependent on any "outside" source. Feelings are aspects of our true Self.

Yes, they are inherent in our true nature. They are it.
But I would even say that although these aspects are split into multiple aspects when talking about it the experience of them are one.

Luntrus

Lucyan28
08-01-2015, 05:55 PM
Emotions are reactions...feelings are divine. There are only three divine feelings: Love, Peace and Joy. These feelings are not dependent on any "outside" source. Feelings are aspects of our true Self.

I like this very much.

@Luntrus :director: (lol it's lovely that emoticon :D)
There is a saying from Hermes: "All is mind"

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 05:58 PM
There is a saying from Hermes: "All is mind"

Which I would disagree with ; )

Lucyan28
08-01-2015, 06:00 PM
Moreover, it is more misleading to borrow a name given to a common emotion and argue that it's agreed upon meaning is wrong, and 'really' it means something completely different.


This is really accurate Ivy.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 06:44 PM
I stumbled upon an article, in which it is very well explained.

"The degree of happiness that we experience at any moment is directly proportionate to the degree of clarity with which we are then conscious of our true and essential being. Therefore happiness is not only our essential being, but is also our consciousness of our being. In fact, since we are the consciousness that experiences our own being as ‘I am’, we are both being and consciousness. In other words, our essential being is consciousness, or more precisely it is self-consciousness — consciousness that knows itself clearly as ‘I am’. Therefore, since our unobstructed consciousness of our own being is experienced by us as happiness, in our essential nature we are non-dual being, consciousness and happiness."

http://www.happinessofbeing.com/

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 06:54 PM
I have experienced emotions or feelings that i didn;t even know existed before and have no name for them. All i did was intend them to me and voila!

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 06:59 PM
I have experienced emotions or feelings that i didn;t even know existed before and have no name for them. All i did was intend them to me and voila!

I guess there are many states of mind avaiblable for us that I have never even been close to experiencing.
I never experienced trancendental meditation, I never shot heroin and I never got tortured.
These are all states of minds, emotions, sensations.

Not speaking about an emotion or a state of mind here, but about that which prevails all states of minds.
That which is there when everything else is not.
That which is complete in itself and does not fear - because it only knows itself in itself by itself.
This is the experience of Happiness and Peace, not of an emotion or a feeling.

Luntrus

Kerubiel
08-01-2015, 07:04 PM
Yes, I can relate that with trust and faith both. As well as with absolute power.

Ivy
08-01-2015, 07:32 PM
I stumbled upon an article, in which it is very well explained.

"The degree of happiness that we experience at any moment is directly proportionate to the degree of clarity with which we are then conscious of our true and essential being. Therefore happiness is not only our essential being, but is also our consciousness of our being. In fact, since we are the consciousness that experiences our own being as ‘I am’, we are both being and consciousness. In other words, our essential being is consciousness, or more precisely it is self-consciousness — consciousness that knows itself clearly as ‘I am’. Therefore, since our unobstructed consciousness of our own being is experienced by us as happiness, in our essential nature we are non-dual being, consciousness and happiness."

http://www.happinessofbeing.com/

I do understand the feeling you are trying to convey Luntrus - and no, it's not a state of mind.

I understand also that some teachers have used the word happiness (or perhaps used a word in which there is no accurate English translation) for this feeling.

But perhaps what the discussion on the thread shows is that using the word happiness doesn't convey the feeling terribly well.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 07:33 PM
But perhaps what the discussion on the thread shows is that using the word happiness doesn't convey the feeling terribly well.

Yes, I definetely get that impression as well :D At least here.
This is of course not a representative discussion because it was mostly a discussion
between people whose glass is already full with their own spiritual lingo and viewpoints.
(they rarely "lead" anywhere, because it is not a teacher-student relationship)
We are just conversing here and very rarely someone really gets a new insight if two parties try to convey a viewpoint which is already very settled. Not never but rarely.
It is just a dancing round and round, like God-Like and I for example discussed "individual consciousness" (if there is such a thing or not) in multiple threads already and still are not any further since day one because we
both are absolutely certain we are "right".

It would be much easier to explain this to someone who has never heard of spirituality than someone
who has been reading and doing stuff for years, I think.

Mr Interesting
08-01-2015, 07:57 PM
Gosh and golly, should I even wade into this potential mire and hope that it turns into a crystal clear pool at the bottom of a lovely cascading waterfall... oops, should spend more time describing the mire, that oozy mud trampled through countless times and bit's of old shoe sticking out where others lost their footing, or at least, the seemingly protective guise that went around their feets... but I'm barefoot at the mo', still want to be able to run up and down gravel driveways like I did as a kid protective of the skin hardening and being useful instead of getting all soft 'cause some clever impressario's can make a living and buy big houses convincing me my God given flesh and blood needs hiding behind blue and red stripes with pointy ends... this season.

Happiness is a state of mind. A state measured out and written out constitution like and a flag made and hung to flap from a high pole. And then each morning we parade out into the two square and salute our allegiance.

Happiness, to me, is more like a hamburger add from the big chain corporations. All these people who are specialists get together in a room to make like the actual ideal of hamburgers. They set up lights and the measure colours and some others spend hours on the edge of a lettuce leaf so it's like a heavenly enactment of absolute certainty and the little glistening edges of mustard...

So you go buy one... and it's crazy, lazy and wilted. Sad and ponderously under-inflated.

But we got the internet now so we flick on the phone and find out about homemade... umm, yummy.

lemex
08-01-2015, 08:12 PM
But perhaps what the discussion on the thread shows is that using the word happiness doesn't convey the feeling terribly well.

Yes it does. You have both pointed out it's the physical body. The word happiness as you used it conveys it terribly well which was explained. People just don't like to agree it seems, of course this is MO to. :smile: There are a hundred of ways to say the same thing. You both have said the same thing. Isn't there no common ground.

Lucyan28
08-01-2015, 08:20 PM
It is just a dancing round and round, like God-Like and I for example discussed "individual consciousness" (if there is such a thing or not) in multiple threads already and still are not any further since day one because we
both are absolutely certain we are "right".

It would be much easier to explain this to someone who has never heard of spirituality than someone
who has been reading and doing stuff for years, I think.

Let's dance Luntru :blob3: :blob3: :blob3:
This is how we increase, refine our knowledge repository :D

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 08:22 PM
Yes it does. You have both pointed out it's the physical body. The word happiness as you used it conveys it terribly well which was explained. People just don't like to agree it seems, of course this is MO to. :smile: There are a hundred of ways to say the same thing. You both have said the same thing. Isn't there common ground for us. I understand what others are saying.

I would like to say we were saying the same thing (as long as you speak about Ivy and me) but we were not I think.
I have not pointed out anything about happiness being in a physical body, actually quite far from it.

Luntrus

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 08:23 PM
Let's dance Luntru :blob3: :blob3: :blob3:
This is how we increase, refine our knowledge repository :D

:)

At least we increase our discussing-skills, which is also not a bad!

lemex
08-01-2015, 08:56 PM
[QUOTE=luntrusreality]Hi, Blackraven, I just quote my post from a few seconds ago again because it adresses that.


QUOTE]

Let me take you back here and the reference made on affect. ??? Not sure you didn't say it. Anyway let it drop then. Sorry, then you probably should not have mentioned it. I hate to say this then I'm not getting what you're trying to say then. Sorry.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 08:58 PM
Let me take you back here and the reference made on affect. ??? Not sure you didn't say it. Anyway let it drop then. Sorry, then you probably should not have mentioned it. I hate to say this then I'm not getting what you're trying to say then. Sorry.

Are you refering to a specific post or the whole thread?
What shouldn't I have mentioned ?
And what are you not getting?

Thanks,

Luntrus

lemex
08-01-2015, 09:02 PM
Are you refering to a specific post or the whole thread?
What shouldn't I have mentioned ?
And what are you not getting?

Thanks,

Luntrus

The body....... the physical..... you seem to know that answer but talk around it. ???????? Can you explain what you were trying to say but not use the word you want to avoid.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 09:09 PM
The body....... the physical..... you seem to know that answer but talk around it. ???????? Can you explain what you were trying to say but not use the word you want to avoid.

Ah okay, (what word am I trying to avoid? I didn't know that was the case ^^)
I mentioned the physical body as in that what we feel in the body as happiness is not a "new state" but rather the end of the contraction that is inherent in the belief to be a separate entity.
Why do people say happiness is an emotion?
Because it is not their natural state.
If happiness would be there 24/7 it would be seen as a normal way of being.
Not as an emotion that is sometimes felt and is caused by an apparaten outside object.

When we feel "happy" (while the illusion of separation is still there) the body relaxes and just eases into the moment.
There is a sense of awe, peace, enjoyment, playfulness (whatever you want to use to describe it)
At some point the contractions of separation come back (they can be very subtle and might only be realized when they fall away).
"Oh, I am not happy anymore"

So Happinness is not an emotion that gets added to our natural state.
Rather everything else gets added to happiness.
Even sadness is made out of happiness in its core.
Just as hate is made out of love.
Those are not polar opposites.

So from the perspective of a separate entity of course happiness is an emotion.
It can't be any other way. If there was no separate entity there would only be happiness.
If there would only be happiness there would be no separate entity.
Not a separate entity that enjoys happiness, but happiness enjoying itself.
Awareness being aware of itself.


Luntrus

silent whisper
08-01-2015, 09:23 PM
Ah okay, (what word am I trying to avoid? I didn't know that was the case ^^)
I mentioned the physical body as in that what we feel in the body as happiness is not a "new state" but rather the end of the contraction that is inherent in the belief to be a separate entity.
Why do people say happiness is an emotion?
Because it is not their natural state.
If happiness would be there 24/7 it would be seen as a normal way of being.
Not as an emotion that is sometimes felt and is caused by an apparaten outside object.

When we feel "happy" (while the illusion of separation is still there) the body relaxes and just eases into the moment.
There is a sense of awe, peace, enjoyment, playfulness (whatever you want to use to describe it)
At some point the contractions of separation come back (they can be very subtle and might only be realized when they fall away).
"Oh, I am not happy anymore"

People can still be in a state of perpetual awareness of inner joy and happiness and feel sad in clarity of feeling.

So Happinness is not an emotion that gets added to our natural state.
Rather everything else gets added to happiness.
Even sadness is made out of happiness in its core.
Just as hate is made out of love.
Those are not polar opposites.

So from the perspective of a separate entity of course happiness is an emotion.
It can't be any other way. If there was no separate entity there would only be happiness.
If there would only be happiness there would be no separate entity.
Not a separate entity that enjoys happiness, but happiness enjoying itself.
Awareness being aware of itself.


Luntrus

When you look at the sun or moon being itself is it revealing happiness at you being its natural sun or moon self?

And when you feel the core of happiness in you as you look at both, what is it in you that makes you feel that?

Is the moon smiling and feeling happy one with you or something else in you that creates your core of happiness?

Yes we have an emotional body to express, but at the core are we really anything but the same as the moon and the sun. Just that we can choose how we relate and name it whatever we choose in that relating space of being because we can feel and express whatever we feel?

Life is connecting of itself as it is.

Being itself.

So it can be anything it chooses to be or name it to be in the being of itself.

At the core of connection their is a breath that is a living breathing thread that life flows through. We create our own meaning through the whole of self.

When you empty and peace falls upon you at the core.

There is nothing and everything.

So in your choice of connection in you. You feel and you name it.

If you sit in stillness in your core where life just is

The core just is. It is still and it is aware.

The rest is the human experience telling itself a story and expressing that story through feeling or otherwise.

Ivy
08-01-2015, 09:35 PM
Nicely spoken SW.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 09:46 PM
The core just is. It is still and it is aware.



This is absolutely true.

I didn't think I was contradicting that.

Of course, it is expressed through words.
"still" and "aware" are also just words.
The nature of our being is so indescribably beautiful in itself that
not one word applies alone.
Still and aware are good because they are very neutral.
But we could also say : love, peace and happiness are words that come close
to describing our true nature as awareness.
Love, peace and happiness are in fact the same experience.
The mind just attributes different causes to them and makes them into an emotion of a human body.
If we just take the expression of the feeling of peace, love and happiness as a non-contracted and pleasant feeling in the gut, then of course it is a human emotion. But only thought makes it to be that way.
It is not our actual experience of true happiness, peace and love that it is just a feeling in the gut.
Also it is not a thought or otherwise definable.

Love is non-separation, Peace is non-agitation/fear and happiness is not-lacking.
All these attributes apply to the still, aware presence of our being and therefore ARE it as one.
Awareness is not aware of non-separation not-fearing and not-lacking as objects but as itself.


Luntrus

silent whisper
08-01-2015, 09:48 PM
Nicely spoken SW.

thankyou. :)

silent whisper
08-01-2015, 10:06 PM
This is absolutely true.

[QUOTE]I didn't think I was contradicting that.

Did I say you were or did you think that yourself?

Of course, it is expressed through words.
"still" and "aware" are also just words.
The nature of our being is so indescribably beautiful in itself that
not one word applies alone.


Beauty is you describing what is in you to express that which you are feeling, creating then giving meaning to that feeling.

The nature of our being is just to be. What you feel is what you feel.

and aware are good because they are very neutral and have no associations of an emotion.
But we could also say : love, peace and happiness are words that come close
to describe our true nature as awareness.
Love, peace and happiness are in fact the same experience.
The mind just attributes different causes to them and makes them into an emotion of a human body.
If we just take the expression of the feeling of peace, love and happiness as a non-contracted and pleasant feeling in the gut, then of course it is a human emotion. But only thought makes it to be that way.
It is not our actual experience of true happiness, peace and love that it is just a feeling in the gut.
Also it is not a thought or otherwise definable.

Love is non-separation, Peace is non-agitation or even fear and happiness is not-lacking.
All these attributes apply to the still, aware presence of our being and therefore ARE it as one.


silent whisper



THe mind likes to work out feelings and give reasons to them. It likes also to relate that feeling to *Something* that is trying to realize feeling with the mind and experience as one.

Life offers many experiences to share that feeling and all feelings with greater awareness of all life, without any need for the mind to give reason for it. It just feels and it relates in that feeling with awareness of it all.

You seem to use your mind to relate to and understand feeling in a more constant flow of being content and in harmony within you and life. You also like to share what you know to be in feeling and the core as one in harmony in you.

So as you continue to articulate all this in your own state of being aware, understanding feeling and its relationship in you to you whole state of being you in this moment, and you reveal yourself to us in this way and offer us great insight in this way, I feel really happy that you are part of this forum.

In my view relating to what you are and what you share, I enjoy the sharing you offer here and love reading what you have to say.

So thankyou.

luntrusreality
08-01-2015, 10:19 PM
Beauty is you describing what is in you to express that which you are feeling, creating then giving meaning to that feeling.

The nature of our being is just to be. What you feel is what you feel.


"to be" is a little to little for my taste (which is just a taste), because in
my experience it is "more" than just being. Not more as in more "things" or attributes (it doesn't have any attributes)
but just "being" alone without qualifying it as peaceful, happy (as in not lacking anything), aware, knowing doesn't quite hit it for me.

Yes, it is dimensionless and no words we use really apply, this is why there
are more than one.
Awareness is not just present(being), it is complete in itself and knows itself.

What is the experience of beauty really?
If we listen to a beautiful piece of music for example.
Or are in nature and appreciate its beauty.
This is not suddenly realized as something new, but rather as a going home.



THe mind likes to work out feelings and give reasons to them. It likes also to relate that feeling to *Something* that is trying to realize feeling with the mind and experience as one.


Yes, I agree with that.
Also all that is happening here is just mind.
Words and interpretation. But words have the mysterious ability
to be taken beyond itself as a pointer ;)



I feel really happy that you are part of this forum.



:hug3: thanks :)

lemex
09-01-2015, 05:17 AM
Love, peace and happiness are in fact the same experience.


The mind just attributes different causes to them and makes them into an emotion of a human body.

But only thought makes it to be that way.



What you are saying is emotion interferes with the natural state you speak of. I don't agree with the idea things are added to happiness, but :wink: , just too alien for me. If that is the case, then it's added here. Emotion does not come from the mind but the body, the mind doesn't know the difference. The fact you see all these things you mention, love, happiness, peace is the same is exceptional. Like you I think it is true.

All's you're saying is feeling that come because of emotion such as happiness is not happiness. You experience only the body.

The point though that individual's know when they are not happy though is also true in reality. This is not an ideal world. In nature humans by default instinctively seeks balance that is positive that is in fact a natural state. If a person in this illusionary world isn't happy it crates disharmony and ultimately leads to harm of the individual, likewise it can promote healing. Whether we like it or not it is natural in us.

Though I feel there is universal consciousness we are that consciousness in limited ways.

Gem
09-01-2015, 07:42 AM
Absolutely nothing wrong with meditation.
I sometimes do it myself, just don't have a regular formal practice.

I was just saying that awareness is never changing. Whether we are in a deep meditative state or totally thought identified or watching a movie.
The awareness is always aware and never more or less deep.

Not hatin against the meditatin here!
Luntrus
That's OK, meditation is a very healthy and beneficial practice to those who find it suits them, but it's been poisoned by promises that arouse temptations and entraps individuals in desire, and been reduced to something of dogma and awe. I think it lost the way with the gurus and the systems and the religions and the new age hype, and in so many ways it's become somewhat of a travesty.

Yep, the awareness itself that enables the perception is a constant presence that is so very obviously here right now, and as all change occurs, the awareness endures as a constant presence, yet, due to it's ever-presence, it is overlooked (like does a fish know what water is?) or it seems so mundane, that people tend more to the experience of change, seeking heightened states of mind rather than be present with the current actual state of consciousness, which is you just as you are.

God-Like
09-01-2015, 07:46 AM
Have you ever experienced this "mind" environment directly without awareness?




There needs awareness within mind in order for self to be in experience .



I'm not trying to be annoying :P just point to the fact that no experience can ever be outside awareness.



I don't mind the questions and I agree with what you say here, although my thoughts on what awareness is in relation to what we are differs, I have mentioned however beyond mind there is no experience/r there is no awareness . This emphasises my point in that what we are in mind is aware because what we are in mind is everything in experience, everything that is observing and observed .



This mind-environment you speak of can only be an experience if there is an aware presence to experience it.


Yes, this is what I have been saying . In mind there is awareness of self experiencing, beyond there is neither .


x daz x

silent whisper
09-01-2015, 08:21 AM
Happiness is not a state of mind!

I have my proof!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mjEMvTUpko

silent whisper
09-01-2015, 08:25 AM
And More proof!~!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE2Vdcv9Q_o

luntrusreality
09-01-2015, 10:43 AM
All's you're saying is feeling that come because of emotion such as happiness is not happiness. You experience only the body.



I am saying that the emotion we feel in the body comes from happiness.
Not happiness from the emotion in the body.
The emotion in the body we feel as happiness is actually not very agitated (that would be extasy or excitement).

But happiness is energetically speaking very "cool". It just feels like
a contraction is lifted. (the contraction of being a separate entity)
It is not something new, but just our natural way of being.

This lifting of contraction can be sometimes viewed as the actual experience of happiness but it is just a nice side-effect that is fleeting.

If we know ourselves to BE this happiness how can there be the feeling of a lifted burden all the time?
For that there would have to be a burden.

So, the emotion we feel in the body is just a side-effect.
Not the actual happiness itself.

Luntrus

silent whisper
09-01-2015, 12:16 PM
Natural arising in feeling for no apparent reason other than you just feel something arising that feels more balanced in feeling that what you previously know to be in feeling in the old ways of feeling or not feeling, depending on your logic versus feeling self...

The middle path where every man walks but some just stick around a bit longer...because they know it feels great, and their life feels more happy and content in this balanced state of being. Lucky it arises naturally without to much force or effort required...

Luntrus-speak!

luntrusreality
09-01-2015, 12:18 PM
Natural arising in feeling for no apparent reason other than you just feel something arising that feels more balanced in feeling that what you previously know to be in feeling in the old ways of feeling or not feeling, depending on your logic versus feeling self...


Luntrus-speak!

You make me laugh :D:D

silent whisper
09-01-2015, 12:20 PM
You make me laugh :D:D

You make me laugh..:D (not sure if is the same reason :wink: ) but feeling the humour in it all is good fun in shared feeling lol.

luntrusreality
09-01-2015, 12:24 PM
You make me laugh..:D (not sure if is the same reason :wink: ) but feeling the humour in it all is good fun in shared feeling lol.

And I ALREADY try to be as direct and clear as I can be and not overcomplicate these things.

Luntrus

silent whisper
09-01-2015, 12:29 PM
And I ALREADY try to be as direct and clear as I can be and not overcomplicate these things.

Luntrus

You are directing your directness and clarity, you get my drift? Complication is the curse of direction did you know that? So I promise in my drifting and you in your directness and clarity being directed, things are fine!!

And I don't mean car drifting...although that might be scary happy fun for some !

luntrusreality
09-01-2015, 12:31 PM
You are directing your directness and clarity, you get my drift?

No, sorry. Could you be more direct?

silent whisper
09-01-2015, 12:33 PM
No, sorry. Could you be more direct?

Um I am now lost in my head..and its time for bed ..

Goodnight again!

blackraven
09-01-2015, 01:51 PM
So Happinness is not an emotion that gets added to our natural state.
Rather everything else gets added to happiness.
Even sadness is made out of happiness in its core.
Just as hate is made out of love.
Those are not polar opposites.

So from the perspective of a separate entity of course happiness is an emotion.
It can't be any other way. If there was no separate entity there would only be happiness.
If there would only be happiness there would be no separate entity.
Not a separate entity that enjoys happiness, but happiness enjoying itself.
Awareness being aware of itself.


Luntrus

Luntrus - I'm a little confused. You said, "Sadness is made out of happiness at the core." Can you explain why you said this? Some individuals come into this world in treacherous living situations and their lives may never get to the point of happiness, but they may know happiness through observing what other people appear to have. I do see sadness and happiness as opposites on the varying spectrum of human emotions.

I also don't get a clear picture of the 'separate entity' example. What are 'we' being separate from?

Blackraven

luntrusreality
09-01-2015, 02:06 PM
Luntrus - I'm a little confused. You said, "Sadness is made out of happiness at the core." Can you explain why you said this? Some individuals come into this world in treacherous living situations and their lives may never get to the point of happiness, but they may know happiness through observing what other people appear to have. I do see sadness and happiness as opposites on the varying spectrum of human emotions.

I also don't get a clear picture of the 'separate entity' example. What are 'we' being separate from?

Blackraven

We are not truly separate from anything.
The "normal" human experience we are used to is the belief to be
an "individual consciousness" residing in a body.
We believe that this is the "I".
We feel that who we are is this "I" that shares the fate of the body and was therefore born and will die.
Also we attribute a story of thoughts, feelings and memories to this "I" - Consciousness.

In reality, there is no separate inside consciousness.
It is rather the other way around.
A body and a mind appears IN consciousness. The one and only consciousness.
There is only ever consciousness, no real universe, no real persons.

This is what I mean when I say "separate entity".

There is actually not even an entity that can feel separate or not-separate.
The entity and the separation is one and the same experience.
If there was no separation, there wouldn't be an entity.
If there was no entity, there wouldn't be separation.

Maybe someone says: "I don't feel separate , I feel connected to the whole".
While this is a slightly "better" version of separation it is still separation.
To be connected there must be separate things that are connected to each other.
There is really only One "thing". Only one consciousness.
Nothing is connected and nothing ever is outside of it.


Our true nature as this consciousness is not imaginable by the mind.
It can only be known by direct experience of itself.

Knowing this true nature as oneself is the experience of happiness, love, or peace. The knowing that you are eternal and not touched by any seemingly separate object that arises in you.

This is the core teaching of nonduality.

So what is sadness?
It is an emotional reaction in the body as a result to resistance to the situation of the body and mind.
But who is resisting? Only the body and mind itself.
Consciousness doesn't resist anything. It is just aware.

So, as long as we believe ourselves to be an individual, separate entity (which is the normal way most humans live) of course , we believe happiness to be just another emotion, because it is not our 24/7 reality.
We only experience fleeting moments of it when the sense of lack or the seeking for something temporarily comes to an end.

This sense of lack and seeking is inherently not there when we know ourselves to be the Awareness rather than the illusionary separate person arising in this Awareness. This awareness IS happiness (no lack, no fear, no seeking).
It is complete in itself, knowing itself.

Sadness always only refers to a story of a body/mind or to a situation of a body/mind and the separate consciousness we believe to be inside of this body/mind.
We suffer when we are identified with objects, thoughts, feelings and the reality of all of these things.
When we believe death to be real and seem to feel that something that exists can suddenly go into nonexistence.

I am not negating the experience of sadness.
But our true nature is never sad.
Sadness arises in it as an experience.
Happiness doesn't arise.
It is that which remains when everything else subsides.

Luntrus

Lucyan28
09-01-2015, 04:34 PM
We are not truly separate from anything.
The "normal" human experience we are used to is the belief to be
an "individual consciousness" residing in a body.
Luntrus

Hi Luntrus how you doing today?

That consciousness is wonderful, we all are part of "it".

I wonder why in the first place we've created the illusion of an "individual consciousness", if we are part of the same consciousness already :confused:

At some point did we feel lonely and have created some characters for some movie called life?

luntrusreality
09-01-2015, 04:54 PM
Hi Luntrus how you doing today?

I wonder why in the first place we've created the illusion of an "individual consciousness", if we are part of the same consciousness already :confused:
At some point did we feel lonely and have created some characters for some movie called life?



Hi Lucyan28, I'm good, thanks ;) How about you?

Why-questions are very difficult to answer, because a why-question assumes cause and effect.
Reason and purpose.
But all of these are concepts of the mind.

What we are is beyond any concept. Beyond time and beyond cause and effect.

Life doesn't need a reason to be exactly as it is.
It is beyond reason.

The best answer would probably be: the pure joy of limitless creation.


Our natural state is just pure unconditioned awareness.
It doesn't lack anything and also doesn't seek anything.
But still "I" (and "you" , because what we really are is One)
create and there are no limits to creation.
Who knows what is possible? Everything!
We don't even need this universe to be exactly as we are as consciousness.
We were there before the big bang, before the dinosaurs, as Buddha, Jesus and no time has passed since then. Only from the perspective of our human mind time has passed, because we only know how to make sense of life through time.

So , no we didn't create it because we as our nature as awareness were lonely. Lonely is a symptom of separation.
Of not-belonging somewhere, not the cause of separation.
Awareness could never be lonely because it ever only knows itself, even when apparently creating the illusion of separation and multiplicity.

It is just right now an experience that is happening for no reason whatsoever.

What comes after the universe? Who knows, but we will be there to be aware of it ;)

Luntrus

jonesboy
09-01-2015, 04:59 PM
It is our natural "state". It can't really be veiled, only seemingly.
The sun is shining even when there are clouds.
Only when we believe to be on the earth looking up at the sun, we seem to not see the sun when its a cloudy day.


"I was happy before the body wakes up in the morning."
"Happiness is never personal. We have to understand that happiness is simply our true nature being aware of itself."
Francis Lucille about Happiness as our true nature. (3:30 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usr5eLt57Q8


Very true, happiness is our clear sky. Unhappiness is the clouds/thoughts that keep us from our clear sky self.

Good stuff.

Caleb
09-01-2015, 05:10 PM
It is our natural "state". It can't really be veiled, only seemingly.
The sun is shining even when there are clouds.
Only when we believe to be on the earth looking up at the sun, we seem to not see the sun when its a cloudy day.


"I was happy before the body wakes up in the morning."
"Happiness is never personal. We have to understand that happiness is simply our true nature being aware of itself."
Francis Lucille about Happiness as our true nature. (3:30 min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usr5eLt57Q8

Very excellent! Yes, True Joy is impersonal and is not a fleeting state, nor even an emotion, being unconditional beyond description.

Whereas emotional joy is a vibration, Unconditional Joy/Love is actually "beyond" all vibration/movement/time/space.

Whereas emotions are relative, their Divine Source isn't, being Absolute.

That which is Universally Natural (the Absolute) is unchanging.

Lucyan28
09-01-2015, 05:16 PM
Hi Lucyan28, I'm good, thanks ;) How about you?

Why-questions are very difficult to answer, because a why-question assumes cause and effect.
Reason and purpose.
But all of these are concepts of the mind.

What we are is beyond any concept. Beyond time and beyond cause and effect.

Life doesn't need a reason to be exactly as it is.
It is beyond reason.

The best answer would probably be: the pure joy of limitless creation.


Our natural state is just pure unconditioned awareness.
It doesn't lack anything and also doesn't seek anything.
But still "I" (and "you" , because what we really are is One)
create and there are no limits to creation.
Who knows what is possible? Everything!
We don't even need this universe to be exactly as we are as consciousness.
We were there before the big bang, before the dinosaurs, as Buddha, Jesus and no time has passed since then. Only from the perspective of our human mind time has passed, because we only know how to make sense of life through time.

So , no we didn't create it because we as our nature as awareness were lonely. Lonely is a symptom of separation.
Of not-belonging somewhere, not the cause of separation.
Awareness could never be lonely because it ever only knows itself, even when apparently creating the illusion of separation and multiplicity.

It is just right now an experience that is happening for no reason whatsoever.

What comes after the universe? Who knows, but we will be there to be aware of it ;)

Luntrus

I am Lucyan and I am not Lucyan, I am Luntrus and I am not Luntrus.

We are pure Awareness :hug3:

Usually that realization is the light at the end of the tunnel when death comes. This consciousness and peace come when we are integrated again with the awareness (note: we were never separated of the awareness, just we thought we were separated, so the integration is just metaphorical), out of this dream of "individual consciousness".

luntrusreality
09-01-2015, 05:21 PM
Very true, happiness is our clear sky. Unhappiness is the clouds/thoughts that keep us from our clear sky self.



Very much to the point , yes !


Very excellent! Yes, True Joy is impersonal and is not a fleeting state, nor even an emotion, being unconditional beyond description.

Whereas emotional joy is a vibration, Unconditional Joy/Love is actually "beyond" all vibration/movement/time/space.

Whereas emotions are relative, their Divine Source isn't, being Absolute.

That which is Universally Natural (the Absolute) is unchanging.



This is a very good way to put it as well.
I like that you use the word vibration for "emotional excitement/joy" etc.
It is a good description for the non-vibrant happiness in relation to what vibrates "on top of it".

Luntrus

luntrusreality
09-01-2015, 05:25 PM
I am Lucyan and I am not Lucyan, I am Luntrus and I am not Luntrus.

We are pure Awareness :hug3:

Usually that realization is the light at the end of the tunnel when death comes. This consciousness and peace come when we are integrated again with the awareness (note: we were never separated of the awareness, just we thought we were separated, so the integration is just metaphorical), out of this dream of "individual consciousness".

Exactly,
for the majority humanity there seems to be no "death before the body dies."
But if it happens (by grace) then it is a beautiful realization that has effects for the body/mind which are then in their natural state and not identified
with a false sense of self as a separate entity anymore.

Luntrus

blackraven
10-01-2015, 10:41 PM
Consciousness doesn't resist anything. It is just aware.
Luntrus

This I feel is the jist of your thread! :wink:

Blackraven

luntrusreality
10-01-2015, 10:57 PM
This I feel is the jist of your thread! :wink:

Blackraven

You feel this because it is :P