forgivness resolution

[kkfern]

New years is my favorite holiday. I love the looking back and seeing what you did and figuring out what you can do better at next year. That is what new years resolutions are all about. Spiritual development is also about that. It is something you have to admit you are weak at and resolve to do better. Let me start with a little history.

Last year my resolution was to work on patience. I am a cashier at walmart. Customers have recently thanked me for being so patient. So I do think I have improved in this area. There was one condition to this attempt. The patience thing was suspended while I was driving. I knew I would have failed with that. Maybe I will save that for another year. I know about failure. I failed for three years running with my last resolution. Yes, I am stubborn.

The resolution for those three years was to make friends with the dvr/dvd recorder player thingie my son gave me for christmas. I failed and failed and failed. Finally I just got rid of it. But that taught me a lesson. I would not fail at my next attempt. So I picked patience. I found patience, which is something I was not very good at was a different shade of being stubborn, something I am very good at. (shade here is how colors are seen in the aura.) I have often wished I could see my own aura. Life would be easier then. So I used my stubbornness to gain access to being patience. It worked.

That brings me to this year. This year I resolve to work on forgiveness. Something that is rampant in the I wish I were more category that I see. It is also something that I have been working on and have had some success with. But when you are working spiritually, things will be thrown in your path that make you work harder. There are many that ask for a guide. Watch what you ask for. You will get it.

I have been married 37 years. My husband and I rarely fight. But because I wanted to work on forgiveness. We had a fight. Funny how spirit works so fast. Last year for christmans he got me a vacuum. I mean it was a nice vacuum. But I did not want a vacuum. But I forgave him and did not mention it. Then, this year he got me a fancy steam cleaning machine. Talk about doubling down. I was mad. I wondered if I was being too sensitive. I googled vacuum for christmas and it was divided but most said NEVER to do it. So I told him about it this year. Thus the fight.

My hope is to keep this thread going for the year with updates on forgiveness. We will see.

kk

[Thunder Bow]

It seems you got family issues rather than a patience issue. Therapy may help you understand it and help you feel better.

[kkfern]

yup lots of family issues. when i mentioned to friends that my resolution would be forgiveness they laugh and say good luck with that. forgiveness is a hard one. that is why i am doing it for a year. i want to explore it and see. i have a foundation in it already but i will see what else i get.

i see two or three things so far. one, it is easy to forgive someone you love. my husband and i are on good terms again. second, when i forgave him for the vacuum and did not tell him about it, he just compounded the issue. the issue in me or him i am not sure of yet. as a cashier, i asked random people about getting a vacuum for christmas. the people just laugh and say it was not a good idea. so i think it is just a man thinking he is giving me a tool. something he always likes.

more on this later. he is waiting for me to go to menards now. menards is a hardware store. there he goes again.

kk

[Miss Hepburn]

If my friend's husband gave her a vacuum she would throw it across the room and scream at him.
( I know this because 24 years ago she broke, threw the stereo system he bought for her.)

She taught him to never buy her something that impersonal...she wanted something romantic and sweet and personal...not
things from the hardware store he might want ...no washers, refrigerators, etc.

Now, he buys them vacation tickets, romantic classy restaurant reservations, a 4 day
weekend at a Hot Springs...things like that.

Just a story about another marriage...she is a very expressive Italian NYer
if that means anything!
And an excellent therapist trying to teach him to be the best partner ever....and now he is.
They have a very passionate relationship, he adores her. LOL.

(OMG, I wrote hardware store before reading about Menard's!)


Just a story for you kkfern. Not suggesting you do this.
Ha!

[kkfern]

thank you for your story and support. he is a good husband. it took me 20 years to train him. i wrote a piece about him once. i was being all sad and lonely. you see, my daughter was killed. before it was she and i and my husband and son. we had a partner that understood us. but then as now, there was not another female that would understand.

i told my husband that i missed having a girl to talk with. he looked at me and said " i will try to talk like a girl for you". i must say, he is doing pretty good at it at times. "OMG look at what she is wearing he will say and laugh."

i do not know if it progress but there is nothing to forgive today. maybe that is another aspect of forgiveness. looking at the good times and seeing how they overpower the bad. it is easy to forgive someone you love. but with strangers there no balm to sooth the hurt.

this looking at forgiveness might take the whole year.

[Miss Hepburn]

kkfern...omg, so sorry about losing your daughter and friend. :(

Forgiveness 101....get ready for a year study....yes!

It took me longer than that to get what forgiveness is.
But, when I say what I learned ...not many get it...so I stopped.

[kkfern]

kkfern...omg, so sorry about losing your daughter and friend. :(

Forgiveness 101....get ready for a year study....yes!

It took me longer than that to get what forgiveness is.
But, when I say what I learned ...not many get it...so I stopped.

thank you for that. loosing someone is hard especially the young. you loose not only the person but the future is lost also.

now to the second part. i have ideas about forgiveness. my guides too have their idea. but there is also the the thing about not being able to tell people, they have to go thru it themselves to really get it. my guides tell me god is not a noun. not a thing. god is action. god is a verb. energy is action ,a verb. so how do we talk about something that is not a noun.

i do not know how this year will end. i think i will learn much about forgiveness. if i knew the end, i would stack the deck to make it so. so i will just explore it before i define it.

i am off to work now. at work there were two people that have wronged me. one of them turned out to be my best friend there. the other one i still will not talk to. i have forgiven both of them. i must think about this. somehow i suspect that something will come up today at work to show me more. no wonder people laughed when i told them my resolution. it is going to be hard.

kk

[Miss Hepburn]

I want your Guides!

Yes, I know about losing the whole entire future ...that is
such a huge part of grief. Oh, brother...:(

If this helps at all...before you go to work...really really imagine
you have won the lottery...$10 million...see where all your
unforgiveness goes!
Haha...it a funny phenomenon.

See how nothing anyone says or does means a darn thing to you!
Water off a duck's back...even laughable! :smile:

[7luminaries]

thank you for that. loosing someone is hard especially the young. you loose not only the person but the future is lost also.

now to the second part. i have ideas about forgiveness. my guides too have their idea. but there is also the the thing about not being able to tell people, they have to go thru it themselves to really get it. my guides tell me god is not a noun. not a thing. god is action. god is a verb. energy is action ,a verb. so how do we talk about something that is not a noun.

i do not know how this year will end. i think i will learn much about forgiveness. if i knew the end, i would stack the deck to make it so. so i will just explore it before i define it.

i am off to work now. at work there were two people that have wronged me. one of them turned out to be my best friend there. the other one i still will not talk to. i have forgiven both of them. i must think about this. somehow i suspect that something will come up today at work to show me more. no wonder people laughed when i told them my resolution. it is going to be hard.

kk
KK, first off, I'm so very sorry for your loss :hug:. You have the heart of a lion; may it serve you well.

2ndly, I really admire how you've brought back the real spirit of the New Year -- the reflection and the inner work for the coming year.
Forgiveness is perhaps as tough as anything else we could strive to do -- and I really love that you are pushing your limits. That really speaks to me.

For me, forgiveness is more a process you have to work with as you go -- it's never done and finished off just so. I work on it with my father all the time; he's a bit of a rear end and it's just not easy. But the main thing is that I bite my tongue and I do forgive him over and over again, so that I can feel in my heart that I've done all I reasonably could.
After all, first & foremost, we have to live with ourselves.

3rdly, I love what your guides say about God. About how God is being loving and doing loving things and giving and receiving love.
Because God is not a noun. God is a verb. That is among the most profound things I've heard, and it's good to hear it as frequently as possible.
I'm going to have to quote you on that :smile:

Peace & blessings,
7L

[kkfern]

I want your Guides!

Yes, I know about losing the whole entire future ...that is
such a huge part of grief. Oh, brother...:(

If this helps at all...before you go to work...really really imagine
you have won the lottery...$10 million...see where all your
unforgiveness goes!
Haha...it a funny phenomenon.

See how nothing anyone says or does means a darn thing to you!
Water off a duck's back...even laughable! :smile:

my guides are pretty fabulous. so many people ask how to meet their guides. i do not have the heart to tell them they have to be pretty messed up first. i did not get them because i was so wonderful. my first guide was my imaginary friend. he never left me. then when i had a low in my life. he sent me to a group of guides that helped.

the millions thing could not work for me. i know i would not be there is i had money so if i pretended that, i would have walked out.

i have been at walmart only just over two years. only twice has there been a problem. so i guess that we are not called on to forgive all that often. we can look at this two ways. one, we are lousy at forgiveness because we do not have to do it too often. second good thing we do not get called on to do it so often. the world could be so much worse if we had more to forgive.

kk

[kkfern]

KK, first off, I'm so very sorry for your loss :hug:. You have the heart of a lion; may it serve you well.

2ndly, I really admire how you've brought back the real spirit of the New Year -- the reflection and the inner work for the coming year.
Forgiveness is perhaps as tough as anything else we could strive to do -- and I really love that you are pushing your limits. That really speaks to me.

For me, forgiveness is more a process you have to work with as you go -- it's never done and finished off just so. I work on it with my father all the time; he's a bit of a rear end and it's just not easy. But the main thing is that I bite my tongue and I do forgive him over and over again, so that I can feel in my heart that I've done all I reasonably could.
After all, first & foremost, we have to live with ourselves.

3rdly, I love what your guides say about God. About how God is being loving and doing loving things and giving and receiving love.
Because God is not a noun. God is a verb. That is among the most profound things I've heard, and it's good to hear it as frequently as possible.
I'm going to have to quote you on that :smile:

Peace & blessings,
7L

thank you for the hug.

interesting that you mention your father. that too is a common place where forgiveness is needed. none of us are perfect are we? neither are our parents. i needed to forgive my father. a year working with forgiveness is nothing compared to the lifetime of learning to forgive him.

my guides speak of the conflict of storms. the weather fronts that come and go causing a storm between them. that is how they see the conflict of generations. we are so much a product of the times we live in. i grew up in the 60's and 70's. so i am all about the freedom. my parents were all about the child is the possession and they will do as told. my child is all about the success that freedom can bring. the next generation, as i see it, is the pendulum swinging to far. the freedom is seen as a given and is rotting the desire to really work. it will swing back.

someday i will get around to sharing how i forgave my dad and my mother. i still walk softly when speaking about my guides and my spirit life. i test the waters and see if it is safe to come out of the closet. in another thread just yesterday i was called pretentious for something i revealed. i think i will have to learn to forgive that poster.

kk

[VisionQuest]

New years is my favorite holiday. I love the looking back and seeing what you did and figuring out what you can do better at next year. That is what new years resolutions are all about. Spiritual development is also about that. It is something you have to admit you are weak at and resolve to do better. Let me start with a little history.

Last year my resolution was to work on patience. I am a cashier at walmart. Customers have recently thanked me for being so patient. So I do think I have improved in this area. There was one condition to this attempt. The patience thing was suspended while I was driving. I knew I would have failed with that. Maybe I will save that for another year. I know about failure. I failed for three years running with my last resolution. Yes, I am stubborn.

The resolution for those three years was to make friends with the dvr/dvd recorder player thingie my son gave me for christmas. I failed and failed and failed. Finally I just got rid of it. But that taught me a lesson. I would not fail at my next attempt. So I picked patience. I found patience, which is something I was not very good at was a different shade of being stubborn, something I am very good at. (shade here is how colors are seen in the aura.) I have often wished I could see my own aura. Life would be easier then. So I used my stubbornness to gain access to being patience. It worked.

That brings me to this year. This year I resolve to work on forgiveness. Something that is rampant in the I wish I were more category that I see. It is also something that I have been working on and have had some success with. But when you are working spiritually, things will be thrown in your path that make you work harder. There are many that ask for a guide. Watch what you ask for. You will get it.

I have been married 37 years. My husband and I rarely fight. But because I wanted to work on forgiveness. We had a fight. Funny how spirit works so fast. Last year for christmans he got me a vacuum. I mean it was a nice vacuum. But I did not want a vacuum. But I forgave him and did not mention it. Then, this year he got me a fancy steam cleaning machine. Talk about doubling down. I was mad. I wondered if I was being too sensitive. I googled vacuum for christmas and it was divided but most said NEVER to do it. So I told him about it this year. Thus the fight.

My hope is to keep this thread going for the year with updates on forgiveness. We will see.

kk


Master PATIENCE by DRIVING 100% within the speed limits, making complete stops, signalling and BEING the DRIVER you want others to be.

This will provide plenty of FORGIVENESS lessons , and with every JUDGMENT we need FORGIVE to cancel the effect of our own error to Judge!

If you can't slow down and drive safely ..... Cancel your car insurance! Then you will find the ability by necessity to drive safe. The problem is never "other drivers" , we find road rage disappears at the speed limit. Flip your rear-view mirror into NIGHT-Mode , their is no need to see grimaces from those WANTING you to go faster, they can pass you.

Self Discipline is needed to become a TRULY PATIENT and FORGIVING Being. You do not TRY to be these things, rather, you FIND you ARE them once you wash away the foolish notions standing in your way.

Teach Only Love by Gerald Jampolsky MD
SuperMind by Vernon Howard
The Secret Of Letting Go by Guy Finley
The Power Of Now by Eckhart Tolle

Those works , if put into daily PRACTICE, will yield not only Forgiveness, but also Patience, Kindness, Compassion, and a host of other Divine traits which are INSIDE your Consciousness NOW. They cannot go anywhere, we just get lost in a host of false beliefs which makes them appear lost.

Turn off ALL nonsense music (bitter) , and put on the Moody Blues or SuperTramp, or classical , or even Eckhart Tolles "Realizing The Power Of Now" and just INPUT the Creative Energies. Train and Tame the Mind , the Ego, and the Desires!! Then you ALIGN your Consciousness with the Divine and IT too seeks YOU!! Thus the ANSWERS come DIRECTLY when properly prepared.

[VisionQuest]

Start with apologizing to your husband for getting upset over the vacuum cleaner.

It isn't about "things" at all. That is an example of a "thwarted WANT" and it is the want itself which stands between the two of you. Then FORGIVE yourself for making a Mountain out of a molehill , in this way you take RESPONSIBILITY for YOUR STATE of BEING and then the turmoil simply vanishes!

[kkfern]

love means never having to apologize. i never understood this before. then after many years of marriage i did. you see, we are entitled to our feelings and thoughts. we own them. we need not appologise for them.

kk

[7luminaries]

thank you for the hug.

interesting that you mention your father. that too is a common place where forgiveness is needed. none of us are perfect are we? neither are our parents. i needed to forgive my father. a year working with forgiveness is nothing compared to the lifetime of learning to forgive him.

my guides speak of the conflict of storms. the weather fronts that come and go causing a storm between them. that is how they see the conflict of generations. we are so much a product of the times we live in. i grew up in the 60's and 70's. so i am all about the freedom. my parents were all about the child is the possession and they will do as told. my child is all about the success that freedom can bring. the next generation, as i see it, is the pendulum swinging to far. the freedom is seen as a given and is rotting the desire to really work. it will swing back.

someday i will get around to sharing how i forgave my dad and my mother. i still walk softly when speaking about my guides and my spirit life. i test the waters and see if it is safe to come out of the closet. in another thread just yesterday i was called pretentious for something i revealed. i think i will have to learn to forgive that poster.

kk
KK much wisdom here! You're very welcome for the hug & I'm glad to give it :hug: I appreciate your understanding regarding my father...yes it is very difficult, isn't it? It is the work of a lifetime, just as you say. In retrospect (to date), no form of abuse or neglect is ideal to say the least, but ultimately it's really the lack of love shown or stated that colours the depth of the trauma. If abuse or neglect stops, then love can shine forth more steadily from that point forward and true healing can progress, all else equal. If there is no love forthcoming, however, then healing is always going to be a slow work in progress, buffered by the boundaries we establish as adults for our own wellbeing.

You are so right on being a product of our times. Typically our greatest personal and spiritual challenges will always be coloured and shaped by our culture and our times. It is these which we must navigate and seek to deconstruct and reconstruct more positively. To think otherwise is simply blindness and ignorance...and that too is rampant of course.

I am deeply impressed by the wealth of wisdom and insight forthcoming these days from you and others. I have the utmost respect when persons share from their experience and from their work with their guides. I hope that you and others always feel comfortable sharing here. This information is extremely valuable and educational for the rest of us.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[KevinO]

New years is my favorite holiday. I love the looking back and seeing what you did and figuring out what you can do better at next year. That is what new years resolutions are all about. Spiritual development is also about that. It is something you have to admit you are weak at and resolve to do better. Let me start with a little history.

Last year my resolution was to work on patience. I am a cashier at walmart. Customers have recently thanked me for being so patient. So I do think I have improved in this area. There was one condition to this attempt. The patience thing was suspended while I was driving. I knew I would have failed with that. Maybe I will save that for another year. I know about failure. I failed for three years running with my last resolution. Yes, I am stubborn.

The resolution for those three years was to make friends with the dvr/dvd recorder player thingie my son gave me for christmas. I failed and failed and failed. Finally I just got rid of it. But that taught me a lesson. I would not fail at my next attempt. So I picked patience. I found patience, which is something I was not very good at was a different shade of being stubborn, something I am very good at. (shade here is how colors are seen in the aura.) I have often wished I could see my own aura. Life would be easier then. So I used my stubbornness to gain access to being patience. It worked.

That brings me to this year. This year I resolve to work on forgiveness. Something that is rampant in the I wish I were more category that I see. It is also something that I have been working on and have had some success with. But when you are working spiritually, things will be thrown in your path that make you work harder. There are many that ask for a guide. Watch what you ask for. You will get it.

I have been married 37 years. My husband and I rarely fight. But because I wanted to work on forgiveness. We had a fight. Funny how spirit works so fast. Last year for christmans he got me a vacuum. I mean it was a nice vacuum. But I did not want a vacuum. But I forgave him and did not mention it. Then, this year he got me a fancy steam cleaning machine. Talk about doubling down. I was mad. I wondered if I was being too sensitive. I googled vacuum for christmas and it was divided but most said NEVER to do it. So I told him about it this year. Thus the fight.

My hope is to keep this thread going for the year with updates on forgiveness. We will see.

kk

I'm surprised he's still alive. Unless you're not telling us...

[kkfern]

KK much wisdom here! You're very welcome for the hug & I'm glad to give it :hug: I appreciate your understanding regarding my father...yes it is very difficult, isn't it? It is the work of a lifetime, just as you say. In retrospect (to date), no form of abuse or neglect is ideal to say the least, but ultimately it's really the lack of love shown or stated that colours the depth of the trauma. If abuse or neglect stops, then love can shine forth more steadily from that point forward and true healing can progress, all else equal. If there is no love forthcoming, however, then healing is always going to be a slow work in progress, buffered by the boundaries we establish as adults for our own wellbeing.

You are so right on being a product of our times. Typically our greatest personal and spiritual challenges will always be coloured and shaped by our culture and our times. It is these which we must navigate and seek to deconstruct and reconstruct more positively. To think otherwise is simply blindness and ignorance...and that too is rampant of course.

I am deeply impressed by the wealth of wisdom and insight forthcoming these days from you and others. I have the utmost respect when persons share from their experience and from their work with their guides. I hope that you and others always feel comfortable sharing here. This information is extremely valuable and educational for the rest of us.

Peace & blessings,
7L

thank you again. your speaking about your father brings up something i have been thinking about with forgiveness. forgiveness as a tool of healing.

i have to remember to not be hurt. that is another aspect of forgiveness. if you do not feel hurt, there is no need to forgive in the first place. in the last two days, upon sharing what my guides/teachers have given i have been called pretentious and then arrogant. i have to learn two things. first it is their problem not mine when they strike out. and second they are in the minority. most people are wonderful.

it seems hard enough to forgive when there is no abuse or neglect. in my family of origin there was both. i need not forgive the neglect. i planned it that way. yes i was neglected. by the time i was born (5th out of 6) my mom was drained and could not really care for others. my mother had divorced my father because of the abuse.

i knew this as an incoming soul. i new that i would have to raise myself. it was needed to make me strong for my task. it also was needed to be able to keep my spirit gifts. you know how most people loose their connection as they start to grow. i never lost mine. my imaginary friend is with me still. he is now known as a guide also as a friend.

the abuse suffered by my mother and my siblings is another story. i was three at the time of the divorce and only saw my father three times in my life. but the effect of the abuse on my siblings does show. so i had/have a good set of subjects to examine in my quest for this life. more on forgiving an alcoholic later. i hate long posts.

kk

[kkfern]

I'm surprised he's still alive. Unless you're not telling us...

hahahah yes he lives.

kk

[Miss Hepburn]

thank you again. your speaking about your father brings up something i have been thinking about with forgiveness. forgiveness as a tool of healing.

i have to remember to not be hurt. that is another aspect of forgiveness. if you do not feel hurt, there is no need to forgive in the first place. in the last two days, upon sharing what my guides/teachers have given i have been called pretentious and then arrogant. i have to learn two things. first it is their problem not mine when they strike out. and second they are in the minority. most people are wonderful.

it seems hard enough to forgive when there is no abuse or neglect. in my family of origin there was both. i need not forgive the neglect. i planned it that way. yes i was neglected. by the time i was born (5th out of 6) my mom was drained and could not really care for others. my mother had divorced my father because of the abuse.

i knew this as an incoming soul. i new that i would have to raise myself. it was needed to make me strong for my task. it also was needed to be able to keep my spirit gifts. you know how most people loose their connection as they start to grow. i never lost mine. my imaginary friend is with me still. he is now known as a guide also as a friend.

the abuse suffered by my mother and my siblings is another story. i was three at the time of the divorce and only saw my father three times in my life. but the effect of the abuse on my siblings does show. so i had/have a good set of subjects to examine in my quest for this life. more on forgiving an alcoholic later. i hate long posts.

kk
Boy, do I relate to this.

Funny, isn't it ...if a close person does something compared to a stranger...
it sure doesn't hurt as bad...so nothing to really forgive.

Ah, family stories are sure fascinating things!
My father was terrible from the moment he saw me in the hospital
thru the window!
Till the day he passed..ah, such special moments at his bedside...not.
He made fun of my Czeck head when born...we Slavic people know each other!
My uncle looked just like Pope John Paul! Spitting image.

[7luminaries]

KK and Miss H...:hug:
I really appreciate what you have both shared...our forgiveness has teeth (or traction) when we have real "skin in the game". It's difficult and yet it's always worth the doing.

Love and hugs to you both!
7L

[kkfern]

i have two things on my mind today. i wanted to do one a day but i got two.

the first is to finish up on apologies. many people think apologizes are part of forgiveness. i do not. apologies mean nothing to me. coming into an alcoholic family i also married into a problem. i married an addict. trust me when i say i have heard many apologies. my husband has now been clean since 1997. so things are different because he is different.

the 12 steps is actually a spiritual path. one of them is to make amends. making amends is more then apologizing. it is showing up and being different. it is looking at yourself and resolving to do better, to be better.

i am so grateful he did. he was clean five years when our daughter was killed. he had time to make amends with her. they were at peace with each other. had he not made amends everything would have been different.

i know i said two but i will save the next for tomorrow. stay tuned. it is about the forgiveness in the our father and it is not what you think.

kk

[kkfern]

thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others.

well i hope the second one is not true. that would be hell and i do not believe in hell. in the first part, we want to extend heaven/spiritual way to earth. in the second, we want to infect heaven/spirit with the ways of earth.

when i had my NDE. there was not judgements and therefore no need for forgiveness. the first thing you feel is absolute acceptance. you see what happened as a set. your life review merges into other lives kind of like when you shuffle a deck of cards. you see the reasons and the effect and the causes. you examine, you do not judge. it was so cool. in the end, there is only acceptance.

much much more to think about with this.

kk

[A human Being]

You know, it's funny how many people try to forgive, and only end up resentful. Forgiveness doesn't mean you bottle up your grievances - suppress them, deny them, get angry at them. It means, imo, that you simply don't have grievances to begin with, which, in practical terms, means that you exercise non-judgment. So, not 'he bought me a vacuum, and he shouldn't have,' but instead, simply, 'he bought me a vacuum.' If you truly want to forgive, your perception has to be clear, which means - no value judgments.

[kkfern]

You know, it's funny how many people try to forgive, and only end up resentful. Forgiveness doesn't mean you bottle up your grievances - suppress them, deny them, get angry at them. It means, imo, that you simply don't have grievances to begin with, which, in practical terms, means that you exercise non-judgment. So, not 'he bought me a vacuum, and he shouldn't have,' but instead, simply, 'he bought me a vacuum.' If you truly want to forgive, your perception has to be clear, which means - no value judgments.

yup that is part of it. just like i wrote about in the post above. it is about no-judgements. but there is also the bottling it up and not even bottling it it. i did the non judgement thing last Christmas when he got me the vacuum. so to compound things, this year it was a steam cleaning machine.

it is over with the machines. we had our talk and we are going to get a good night out at a local vacation spot. so maybe that is another element of forgiveness. the talking and deciding and making amends. making amends and changing things.

still more to come on examining forgiveness. i am sure there will be more within the next year. forgiveness is something so many struggle with. so the resolution is to learn about it. OK people. teach me more so i can learn. tell me about your forgiveness trials.

kk

[kkfern]

throwing something else into the mix. judgements as opposed to discernment. there are families where it is better to distance yourself. it is not a matter of forgiveness for them. it is a matter of survival for you.

they teach this in naranon. families of the addict. and in alanon, families of the addict. you do forgive them 70 times 7 times but for the sake of healing you just gotta go.

kk

kk

[Miss Hepburn]

... but for the sake of healing you just gotta go.

Oh, yeah. Get away.

[Astral Jane]

in the second, we want to infect heaven/spirit with the ways of earth.
...?? isn't it saying the other way around? that heaven's will should be done on earth?

[Tanemon]

yup that is part of it. just like i wrote about in the post above. it is about no-judgements.
I'm in favor of forgiveness and working to resolve our memories and retained pains.

But this point about "no judgement" (or "non judgement" as a lot of people say) is tricky.

Yes, we can look at our own miseries and 'misfortunes' as, for example, our karma coming into this life, or our task, or our burden, etc. And if we've had a less than perfectly rosy experience in life, we can work on healing, "rising above", resolving, learning from experience, etc. I'm involved with this process myself, and I agree that we've reached the resolution when a state of no-judgement is reached.

But the principle of non-judgement can't very well be extended to an "anything goes" attitude to life: "if it happens to him/her, it's his/her fault, so don't look at me." I reject that, because I feel people (individually and collectively) need guidelines for acceptable behavior. We need the moral element, both for our individual lives and for public life (politicians, public servants, big-businessmen).

I'm very comfortable with society making at least some sort of basic "judgements" (e.g., don't murder, don't rape, don't bully, don't defraud... this sort of thing).

What do you think?

[KevinO]

I'm in favor of forgiveness and working to resolve our memories and retained pains.

But this point about "no judgement" (or "non judgement" as a lot of people say) is tricky.

Yes, we can look at our own miseries and 'misfortunes' as, for example, our karma coming into this life, or our task, or our burden, etc. And if we've had a less than perfectly rosy experience in life, we can work on healing, "rising above", resolving, learning from experience, etc. I'm involved with this process myself, and I agree that we've reached the resolution when a state of no-judgement is reached.

But the principle of non-judgement can't very well be extended to an "anything goes" attitude to life: "if it happens to him/her, it's his/her fault, so don't look at me." I reject that, because I feel people (individually and collectively) need guidelines for acceptable behavior. We need the moral element, both for our individual lives and for public life (politicians, public servants, big-businessmen).

I'm very comfortable with society making at least some sort of basic "judgements" (e.g., don't murder, don't rape, don't bully, don't defraud... this sort of thing).

What do you think?

I think earth is a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live here.

[kkfern]

I'm in favor of forgiveness and working to resolve our memories and retained pains.

But this point about "no judgement" (or "non judgement" as a lot of people say) is tricky.

Yes, we can look at our own miseries and 'misfortunes' as, for example, our karma coming into this life, or our task, or our burden, etc. And if we've had a less than perfectly rosy experience in life, we can work on healing, "rising above", resolving, learning from experience, etc. I'm involved with this process myself, and I agree that we've reached the resolution when a state of no-judgement is reached.

But the principle of non-judgement can't very well be extended to an "anything goes" attitude to life: "if it happens to him/her, it's his/her fault, so don't look at me." I reject that, because I feel people (individually and collectively) need guidelines for acceptable behavior. We need the moral element, both for our individual lives and for public life (politicians, public servants, big-businessmen).

I'm very comfortable with society making at least some sort of basic "judgements" (e.g., don't murder, don't rape, don't bully, don't defraud... this sort of thing).

What do you think?

i think. i think it is not about the don't it is about the do's. a positive approach of live. do honor life. do respect others. do be honest. live impeccably.

living a good life is the best revenge. show them what YOU are made of. show them the way.

kk

[kkfern]

...?? isn't it saying the other way around? that heaven's will should be done on earth?

yup that is the point. it should be as in heaven is here. but then we turn it around. we mess it up.

forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others. it should have stopped at forgive us our trespasses. then we put a condition on it. forgive us as we forgive. so we have to learn to get this forgiveness stuff right. we only get as good as we give.

kk

[kkfern]

ok so it has been a few days. there was nothing to forgive. i am glad.

today started off bad again. there is someone on this board i have to forgive AGAIN. when i post things, he goes out of his way to cause trouble. he does not comment on what i post, all he does is attack me. last time he called me pretentious. this time he called me childish. this man has a pproblem so i forgive him again.

there are two things i could do. i could just stop posting. i could confront him. too late, i already did the second. ahhaha

now, to the reflection part of this. forgiveness as the resolution to explore and learn about forgiveness. i pondered if this is me holding a grudge. i am often very good at this. i am giving that up also this year. so i just ignored his posts. it does not seem to work. he found me anyway.

i also could have stopped posting in Christianity. that is his home. but a post interested me. it is a matter of "freedom to speak" . such as the post that was recently here. i liked reading the comments. even the freedom of speech as is being discussed as in Paris's issues.

then again, personally, my whole life's plan is to learn to speak up. it is kind of a long story, mostly because i am old. 60. it is about the closet of where i keep things i cannot speak of. an imaginary closet. it is the premise of a book i am writing.

so again, it seems i am on a teeter-tauter and do not know how to balance the two sides. up and down up and down. speak and not speak. speak and not speak.

at least i am not on a teeter tauter about forgiveness. i forgive and forgive and forgive. but it still seems i am not making progress.

wait, kind of an update. there was another person that was at odes with me on this board. we have since talked it out and we are fine. three steps forward and two steps back. it will be a long year.

kk

[Miss Hepburn]

Or...you could place him on ignore...ahh, the peace when
I do that.
For some reason I feel a sisterhood with you, kk...
really more of an affection. :hug:

[Miss Hepburn]

You know, it's funny how many people try to forgive. I was actually tormented for 2 days bec my new 'thing' is learning that 'forgiveness is the thing'....
we will have to forgive and that is just that...or be stuck.
Great!
I have one big unforgiveness in me...I did and Do Not want to let
go of it, he deserves my shunning! Grrrr.

So great, I must learn how to forgive him. Dammit.

Then, I had a lightbulb go off!! And started a thread it was such
a breath of fresh air....because I am not used to torment! Haha.

The realization was basically....Oh! Give me your burdens....I don't have
to learn how to forgive him....the Holy Spirit in me will
teach me and do it for me within me, as usual....sigh, what a load off!


And hi, 7L :hello:

[kkfern]

Or...you could place him on ignore...ahh, the peace when
I do that.
For some reason I feel a sisterhood with you, kk...
really more of an affection. :hug:

cool how do i do the ignore thing. is it part of the sight?

i like your posts too. you are much more calm then i. you give good replies.

kk

[kkfern]

Or...you could place him on ignore...ahh, the peace when
I do that.
For some reason I feel a sisterhood with you, kk...
really more of an affection. :hug:

WOW this is wonderful. i did ignore the bully and i feel wonderful. i need a ignore app on my phone. not for calls, but for people. that too would be wonderful.

this is very meaningful in the forgiveness exploration. for someone is supposta feel better but i did not feel any better after the many times i forgave the bully. THEN i learned about the ignore on this board and i feel so free. so i think the important thing is from something we already posted. (i say we because i feel i am not alone in the resolution. i feel support from each of you). the NARANON teaches that sometimes you just gotta go. you have to leave the toxic situation and person behind (get behind me devil).

the ignore and leaving the offending people is part of the forgiveness healing.

kk

[kkfern]

OK i am over it. well almost. i am working on it. it is not exactly forgiving but it is close. there is a grudge i am/was holding against someone. that someone is famous and i have never really met him but he is one of the leaders in the spiritual field.

i found him a disappointment because i know he is better then he knows and he is stuck. IMHO. well, i am reading his new book and he has finally made the breakthrough. joy joy joy.

so forgiveness is also about thinking less of a person. they say familiarity breed contempt. well i find that not to be true. familiarity, or knowing more about the person gives you insight into why they acted as they did.

my dad was not a looser alcoholic. well he was. but he also had a dysfunctional brain chemistry that made him that way. so that little glimmer made forgiveness possible. my mom was not a disconnected mother. she was insulating herself form more damage. so that opens a glimmer of forgiveness.

this person whom wrote the book was not underachieving. he just took his time getting there. he was busy doing other things. i would recommend his book but then i would have to say whom he was. hahahahahahaha

kk

[kkfern]

forgiveness is easy. well it is when i have nothing to forgive.

there was something that came up. i m on the side of not forgiving. have you seen the movie Philomena. there is that scene towards the end where the mean old sister that could have made everything better still refused to help. the child that was taken returned later to talk with the sisters. the sisters would not help. the man dies and was buried behind the church and still they would not help Philomena.

in this part Philomena said she forgave the nun and the man that wow helping her said he did not. i am on his side. i would not forgive. they were nuns. they had never been a mother. a mother needs to know about her child. the nun. the nun was jsut bitter and mean.

in this case forgiving them did not serve any purpose. it did not make them think about how evil they were. when you do not have to face up to what you have done, there is no need to change and learn and grow.

what side are you on?

kk

[Molearner]

[QUOTE=kkfern]in this part Philomena said she forgave the nun and the man that wow helping her said he did not. i am on his side. i would not forgive. they were nuns. they had never been a mother. a mother needs to know about her child. the nun. the nun was jsut bitter and mean.

in this case forgiving them did not serve any purpose. it did not make them think about how evil they were. when you do not have to face up to what you have done, there is no need to change and learn and grow.

what side are you on?

kkfern,

This brings up a very good point. It points out the difficulty of forgiveness. We find it difficult to forgive those that we hold to a higher standard. Forgiveness is of little value if we can only forgive those whose imperfections are obvious or even expected. The benefit of forgiveness is as much if not more for the benefit of the one who forgives as opposed to the one that is forgiven. In this case it might not have served a purpose for the one that was forgiven but it served a purpose for the one that forgave. It helps to remove the emotion of hate from one's heart which, if retained, is detrimental in every way to your spiritual growth. If it is a consolation of any sort, it is left to karma to deliver justice. John 20:23...."If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained".

The relevance of this verse is this: What does one do with the retained sins? Carry them around with you for the rest of your life? It is better to forgive and forget.....justice will be meted out by a higher force.

[Molearner]

Let's carry this a little further. If we hold others to a higher standard where does our right to do this come from? We are essentially saying that others should be held to a higher standard. This is our own projection. By saying this we, in essence, are disavowing that all men are created equal. We admit our own inferiority......this is wrong.......it is a false humility. If we believe that we are equal then we should be held to equal standards. Acceding a higher position to someone else does not give me carte blanche to hold them in judgment. If anything it gives me the responsibility of wishing, hoping or praying for their success. They have accepted a mission, for the good of many, that I have avoided.

[athribiristan]

kkfern...omg, so sorry about losing your daughter and friend. :(

Forgiveness 101....get ready for a year study....yes!

It took me longer than that to get what forgiveness is.
But, when I say what I learned ...not many get it...so I stopped.

Funny how that works huh?

[kkfern]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
kkfern...omg, so sorry about losing your daughter and friend. :(

Forgiveness 101....get ready for a year study....yes!

It took me longer than that to get what forgiveness is.
But, when I say what I learned ...not many get it...so I stopped.

Funny how that works huh?
__________________
With Love,
athribiristan
Reply With Quote

i hope she will tell us of her learning. i hope i can get it.

kk

[kkfern]

[QUOTE=kkfern]in this part Philomena said she forgave the nun and the man that wow helping her said he did not. i am on his side. i would not forgive. they were nuns. they had never been a mother. a mother needs to know about her child. the nun. the nun was jsut bitter and mean.

in this case forgiving them did not serve any purpose. it did not make them think about how evil they were. when you do not have to face up to what you have done, there is no need to change and learn and grow.

what side are you on?

kkfern,

This brings up a very good point. It points out the difficulty of forgiveness. We find it difficult to forgive those that we hold to a higher standard. Forgiveness is of little value if we can only forgive those whose imperfections are obvious or even expected. The benefit of forgiveness is as much if not more for the benefit of the one who forgives as opposed to the one that is forgiven. In this case it might not have served a purpose for the one that was forgiven but it served a purpose for the one that forgave. It helps to remove the emotion of hate from one's heart which, if retained, is detrimental in every way to your spiritual growth. If it is a consolation of any sort, it is left to karma to deliver justice. John 20:23...."If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained".

The relevance of this verse is this: What does one do with the retained sins? Carry them around with you for the rest of your life? It is better to forgive and forget.....justice will be meted out by a higher force.

interesting. you know that brings up something i have always wondered about. it involves people we have expectations of. when a person was raped as a child (my sister). i see so many of them hating and blaming the mother for not protecting them. yet, i never see them hating the assailant. why do they deflect the anger away form the male (my father that hurt my sister). they are afraid to verbally attack the assailant and will verbally attack the mother for ot protecting them? i do not get it.

what does one do with the retained sin. a child that is raped is damaged for life. in this case it is not about forgiveness. it is more about living with an injury so deep that it bends the person.

kk

[Molearner]

[QUOTE=kkfernwhat does one do with the retained sin. a child that is raped is damaged for life. in this case it is not about forgiveness. it is more about living with an injury so deep that it bends the person.

kkfern,

There is no way to say that this is not difficult. But one cannot actually 'live' with injury(sin). Make this synonymous in your mind.....injury and sin. Sin can only bring death. There is no life in sin. Memory should be used to bring things to life such as the words at communion...."Do this in remembrance of me"........i.e. thru memory we bring Christ to life. We know that in some extreme cases people are given the grace of having no memory of traumatic events. It is erased from their memories in order that they might live. The opposite of memory is to forget. We should use memory to bring to life things that can live(love, etc.). We should employ forgetfulness to put to death things that have no life in them(sin, injury,etc). You are not betraying yourself by forgiving and forgetting. Instead you are putting a premium on life and love over sin and death. People will say..."I know this philosophically and intellectually but it is impossible for me to do". We have to convince ourselves that this is simply not true by saying "that with God all things are possible". Perhaps this is a facility that needs to be developed and strengthened. If we consciously work with sins(injuries) that are not so grievous as the one of your experience and work to develop an attitude of forgiving and forgetting it can eventually become of avail when we are forced to deal with greater sins.
What would God do........and what has He done? We read in Isaiah 43:25......"I am he who blots out your transgressions FOR MY OWN SAKE, and I will not remember your sins".

[kkfern]

injury and sin are not the same. i do not think of sin the same way you do. sin is simply a mistake. a learning process. it does not bring death.

an injury can bring death. it can bend the being you were meant to be when you are raped. it does not matter if you are 3 or 30 or70. rape is a vile act. it injures a person and that person's spirit.

even as you say to have no memory of the event is an injury. you know it happened but it is like a sliver that is under your skin still causing pain and infection. eventually that sliver must come out.

they are not the same.

kk

[Molearner]

kkfern,

As we know things are easier said than done. I know that I would like to approach a similar situation in the way that I described. However, faced with that situation I am not sure that I could. Right now I realize that it is important to you to hold to that memory. I still advocate attempting to release that memory.

[kkfern]

things do not happen to you. they happen for you. sometimes things need to be held onto so you can change them. i was never raped. my sister was my daughter was. it was very damaging.

some of us have different archetypes built into us for each journey into earth. one of mine was a warrior. i knew things would not be easy and i would need to fight. there was the aspect we discussed about need. soem need to preach. some need to stand up for others. it depends what your mission is.

kk

[Miss Hepburn]

Ah, the nuns and Philomena.

This is what I see. We have 2 sides, a split mind....the ego mind or
'lower ego self' as Wayne Dyer says...and our higher self or ego self.

Sure, all of us can relate to never forgiving those nuns.
But, when we go to our higher self, that I picture as angelic, above all
this muss and fuss...like a mother looking at her quarreling children and lovingly,
smiling shaking her head...we can forgive.

In fact because of what I am reading now and learning...forgiving
is the only way we are getting outta this place
(3rd dimension and reincarnating over and over xs 3000) Ha!

It's like ...face it...(I'm talking to myself)...you (I) will come to this realization one day..why have it
happen in 1000 lifetimes from now?
When right here and now I can start the process of forgiving.

AND, when we get that...it is not really 'us' that forgives (bec our ego can't)...when we
ask the Holy Spirit (or use your word) to help us or even 'do it'...because we can't...He does.
Voila.

And when we forgive someone we are forgiving ourselves ...bec there
really is only One...when I got that ....whoa.
(Before that it is someone pontificating about some lofty thing.)
Gotta 'get' what the situation is 'here'...as in existence in regards to the Creator... and the life after life after life
after life after life after life drama.

I want to 'get it' so a couple books came my way 2 months ago.
Since then ...everything has changed. :smile:
I'm different than last WEEK!

[kkfern]

In fact because of what I am reading now and learning...forgiving
is the only way we are getting outta this place
(3rd dimension and reincarnating over and over xs 3000) Ha!

It's like ...face it...(I'm talking to myself)...you (I) will come to this realization one day..why have it
happen in 1000 lifetimes from now?
When right here and now I can start the process of forgiving.

good thing i do not believe in reincarnation.

kk

[Molearner]

kkfern,

Looking back to your original posting I am not quite sure why you started this thread. You mentioned forgiving your husband for giving you gifts of a vacuum and a cleaning machine. It is hard for me to perceive the sin in giving. What is to forgive in that situation? That he could not read your mind? I think those particular things fall more aptly under the category of understanding. The forgiving that you speak of seems to be more conditional in nature......i.e. if it is apparently minor....then forgiveness can be given. I was addressing a broader concept of forgiveness.....one that is all encompassing and unconditional. So we are probably on different pages.

[athribiristan]

I'm in favor of forgiveness and working to resolve our memories and retained pains.

But this point about "no judgement" (or "non judgement" as a lot of people say) is tricky.

Yes, we can look at our own miseries and 'misfortunes' as, for example, our karma coming into this life, or our task, or our burden, etc. And if we've had a less than perfectly rosy experience in life, we can work on healing, "rising above", resolving, learning from experience, etc. I'm involved with this process myself, and I agree that we've reached the resolution when a state of no-judgement is reached.

But the principle of non-judgement can't very well be extended to an "anything goes" attitude to life: "if it happens to him/her, it's his/her fault, so don't look at me." I reject that, because I feel people (individually and collectively) need guidelines for acceptable behavior. We need the moral element, both for our individual lives and for public life (politicians, public servants, big-businessmen).

I'm very comfortable with society making at least some sort of basic "judgements" (e.g., don't murder, don't rape, don't bully, don't defraud... this sort of thing).

What do you think?

That all comes from natural law. Do no harm. It is referred to in modern times as the Common Law, although it is rarely practiced any more as we have been tricked into using either equity law or maritime law. Its not really a societal judgement. Natural law goes back thousands of years.

Do no harm.....nothing more is really needed. All of the hundreds of thousands of 'laws' we have on the books now are a complete waste of time.

Judgement belongs to the Divine, not to us. Only our own arrogance/ego brings us to a place of judgement, as if we know better than God what something should be or not be.

[athribiristan]

yup that is the point. it should be as in heaven is here. but then we turn it around. we mess it up.

forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others. it should have stopped at forgive us our trespasses. then we put a condition on it. forgive us as we forgive. so we have to learn to get this forgiveness stuff right. we only get as good as we give.

kk

But that is true with everything....not just forgiveness. Just one small example of a much broader spiritual Law.

[athribiristan]

kkfern,

Looking back to your original posting I am not quite sure why you started this thread. You mentioned forgiving your husband for giving you gifts of a vacuum and a cleaning machine. It is hard for me to perceive the sin in giving. What is to forgive in that situation? That he could not read your mind? I think those particular things fall more aptly under the category of understanding. The forgiving that you speak of seems to be more conditional in nature......i.e. if it is apparently minor....then forgiveness can be given. I was addressing a broader concept of forgiveness.....one that is all encompassing and unconditional. So we are probably on different pages.

The anger comes from stereotypes. A woman's place is in the home. That vaccuum cleaner proves the stereotype. My wife has wanted a vaccuum cleaner for several years now, she would be happy to receive one. Its all about perspective. When you examine the root causes of the 'hurt' that others cause we find that they can only be our own issues. So forgiving is not saying 'its ok, I understand that you are imperfect and are doing the best you can with what you have.' Instead it is seeing our own responsibility for the judgement of hurt.

This is where people jump down my throat about rape, and abuse, and how is that my fault? Things can either happen to you or because of you. One is a state of victim, the other is power. I'm not saying its pretty, or easy, but it IS how it works. To the extent you take responsibility, you are empowering yourself to make changes. To the extent the you are a victim, you are powerless. Forgiveness is more about taking back your power than anything.

[Molearner]

But that is true with everything....not just forgiveness. Just one small eaxample of a much broader spiritual Law.


There is an even broader spiritual law in conjunction with forgiveness. God does not forgive us on a 'quid pro quid' basis. Our forgiveness of 1 sin can result in the forgiveness of MANY of our own sins.

[kkfern]

kkfern,

Looking back to your original posting I am not quite sure why you started this thread. You mentioned forgiving your husband for giving you gifts of a vacuum and a cleaning machine. It is hard for me to perceive the sin in giving. What is to forgive in that situation? That he could not read your mind? I think those particular things fall more aptly under the category of understanding. The forgiving that you speak of seems to be more conditional in nature......i.e. if it is apparently minor....then forgiveness can be given. I was addressing a broader concept of forgiveness.....one that is all encompassing and unconditional. So we are probably on different pages.

i was deciding on a new year's resolution. it seemed as soon as i thought of what i wanted to work on for a year, we had a fight. spirit works that way. the first year, we will call it the year of the vacuum. i just forgave and said nothing. then this year i tried something different because of the resolution.

i am examining forgiveness in whatever aspect comes up this year. one month down 11 to go.

another thought come to me. the flag most often waved by spiritual people is the "unconditional love" flag. my teachers spoke on the many conditions of love. the different types of love. perhaps forgiveness is like that too. many stages of forgiveness and may aspects of forgiveness.

kk

[kkfern]

The anger comes from stereotypes. A woman's place is in the home. That vaccuum cleaner proves the stereotype. My wife has wanted a vaccuum cleaner for several years now, she would be happy to receive one. Its all about perspective. When you examine the root causes of the 'hurt' that others cause we find that they can only be our own issues. So forgiving is not saying 'its ok, I understand that you are imperfect and are doing the best you can with what you have.' Instead it is seeing our own responsibility for the judgement of hurt.

This is where people jump down my throat about rape, and abuse, and how is that my fault? Things can either happen to you or because of you. One is a state of victim, the other is power. I'm not saying its pretty, or easy, but it IS how it works. To the extent you take responsibility, you are empowering yourself to make changes. To the extent the you are a victim, you are powerless. Forgiveness is more about taking back your power than anything.


hahahhah sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

that is soooo old school. seriously? a women's place is in the home? if i wanted a vacuum i would buy it myself. we did have a good weekend at a local spot. much better.

about the rape? seriously??? old school again. rape is not about sex, it is about power. it is about the woman being powerless. you do not take your power back by forgiving. you double down on the power loss. this transformed into a rape debate with the idea of those we hold to a higher standard. my comment was that the person raped would attack the mother but not the male because he was held to a higher standard. so he was kind of untouchable. the way bill cosby was.

the MANY victims of bill crosby are taking back their power now by speaking up/ finally, there is no superior standard given to the man.

again the idea of forgiveness needs to be updated to include making amends. the changing of one's way. it is not up to the victim. and yes, there is a victim here. it is about stopping the crime. rape is a crime.

[athribiristan]

hahahhah sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

that is soooo old school. seriously? a women's place is in the home? if i wanted a vacuum i would buy it myself. we did have a good weekend at a local spot. much better.

I'm not saying I believe that, but that is clearly a button for you. I think this is why the household items upset you. The only thing that makes one gift 'better' than another is our perception or judgement of the gift.

about the rape? seriously??? old school again. rape is not about sex, it is about power. it is about the woman being powerless. you do not take your power back by forgiving. you double down on the power loss. this transformed into a rape debate with the idea of those we hold to a higher standard. my comment was that the person raped would attack the mother but not the male because he was held to a higher standard. so he was kind of untouchable. the way bill cosby was.

That is exactly what I'm saying. Its about power. The victim does not feel powerful with regard to the aggressor so they take it out on a third party. You're not forgiving the aggressor, you're forgiving yourself for being powerless. Then and only then can you change from the role of victim to the role of responsibility. Then when you are confronted with the next A-hole who would take advantage of you, you have the power to say no. Its not about making the past situation 'right'. Its about changing our perception of ourselves so that we can act in a way that is in our own best interests moving forward.


the MANY victims of bill crosby are taking back their power now by speaking up/ finally, there is no superior standard given to the man.


again the idea of forgiveness needs to be updated to include making amends. the changing of one's way. it is not up to the victim. and yes, there is a victim here. it is about stopping the crime. rape is a crime.

Not arguing that point. The other side of forgiveness that you talk about....making amends. Its nice, it requires the other person to repent (turn away from), to understand that they have caused harm and to seek to stop doing the same harm in the future. It is not necessary for forgiveness though.

[kkfern]

athribiristan

i am amazed you can say things you do not believe. you have no integrity. or you make false assumptions and pin that on me. so not the way it is. you are judging what you have no clue of. thinking you have all the answers. that is ok i forgive you. for you know what you do.

kk

[athribiristan]

athribiristan

i am amazed you can say things you do not believe. you have no integrity. or you make false assumptions and pin that on me. so not the way it is. you are judging what you have no clue of. thinking you have all the answers. that is ok i forgive you. for you know what you do.

kk

Maybe I'm just part of the lesson of forgiveness. I was just trying to give an example, not state a belief. Is that so hard to see? I don't assume anything, I just look at the facts. The fact is that you get defensive about domestic objects, on multiple occasions. I think there is a connection there. You got very excited when I chose 'a woman's place is in the home' as an example. It was just that, an example, I don't believe a woman's place is in the home. Some of my happiest days were as a stay at home dad while my wife worked. A judgment implies right or wrong, I merely talk about what I see, I do not judge that perception. I don't say that my perception of things is the only valid perception, that it is 'right' and yours is 'wrong'. The lack of a disclaimer on my posts is simply an assumption that everyone here understands that we can only speak the truth as we know it.

You say that you forgive me, because I don't know what I do.

Would you still forgive me if I did?

[Molearner]

again the idea of forgiveness needs to be updated to include making amends. the changing of one's way. it is not up to the victim. and yes, there is a victim here. it is about stopping the crime. rape is a crime.

kkfern,

Forgiveness...probably plays little part in stopping the crime. Stopping the crime is the function of justice. Perhaps there can be ideal forgiveness....in other words.....the one receiving forgiveness repents. But for that to happen that person has to be on an adequately high spiritual level. We cannot only extend forgiveness to those we perceive capable of receiving it in the right spirit.

[kkfern]

Maybe I'm just part of the lesson of forgiveness. I was just trying to give an example, not state a belief. Is that so hard to see? I don't assume anything, I just look at the facts. The fact is that you get defensive about domestic objects, on multiple occasions. I think there is a connection there. You got very excited when I chose 'a woman's place is in the home' as an example. It was just that, an example, I don't believe a woman's place is in the home. Some of my happiest days were as a stay at home dad while my wife worked. A judgment implies right or wrong, I merely talk about what I see, I do not judge that perception. I don't say that my perception of things is the only valid perception, that it is 'right' and yours is 'wrong'. The lack of a disclaimer on my posts is simply an assumption that everyone here understands that we can only speak the truth as we know it.

You say that you forgive me, because I don't know what I do.

Would you still forgive me if I did?

of course i would forgive. i would also know never to trust you again. you have shown your colors. you have no integrity. that is ok. maybe i am in your path to teach you the difference between perception and projection. that is something i have noticed about "religious people". they are quick to take everybody's inventory and seek a problem to attach to others. they have a negative blaming aspect to themselves. spiritual people are willing to look at themselves and work on things.

i wish you well

kk

[kkfern]

kkfern,

Forgiveness...probably plays little part in stopping the crime. Stopping the crime is the function of justice. Perhaps there can be ideal forgiveness....in other words.....the one receiving forgiveness repents. But for that to happen that person has to be on an adequately high spiritual level. We cannot only extend forgiveness to those we perceive capable of receiving it in the right spirit.

so true. forgiving someone does not mean forgetting the lesson. it does not mean you have to remain silent about the crime. or to being it back to the simpler idea. the wrongdoing. maybe that is why everyone says forgiveness if for yourself. that does make sense. let it go.




i am not responsible for another person. i cannot help another person to repent.

i like to live by quotes. one of them is " my life is hard enough i do not want to live anyone else's." so i stay away from judging.

another one i think of often is. "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. you gotta make him thirsty first."

just some things to think about on forgiveness for this year. the second one is about helping the offender to see the error of his ways. i got so good at forgiving because my husband is an ex addict. the codependent/enabling wife will forgive almost on a daily basis. i had to learn that forgiveness is not enough. you have got to act. my husband has been clean since 1997. soooo much more to this story.

kk


well back to Philomena. this post kind of got hijacked as is often the case.

[kkfern]

i was forgiven. this is a different take this time. i did something wrong and i was forgiven. my son recently had surgery. they throw you out of the hospital in 24 hours these days and you have to have a caregiver to go home. so i spent the next three days at my son's house taking care of him. he needed it. walking and doing most things were impossible. i tapered off and went home to sleep. and came back the next day. then i stayed home except for when he needed something.

his dad wanted to make a special diner for him and he made ribs. when we went to deliver them i let myself in as usual because i had the keys and i did not want him to have to get up. he was busy doing work. (IT he works from home many times) so dad and i just left. about an hour later he called to say we should have called first. he was right. he left a message because we were both out at the time. later i called to apologize. we are still good.

flash back to my youth. my mom would come over on weekends and just stop by. she never called. many times we, the family wanted to do thins but could not because mom might stop by. more then once she stopped when my husband and i were doing THE thing. finally i had to ask her to call first. she was mad and never came by again. only when she was invited for an event. we could not be just friends anymore. she never forgave me for what she thought was her right.

i am glad i did not get mad. i am glad my son forgave me.

kk



i

[kkfern]

joy joy JOY doing the dance of joy. someone just apologized to me. joy joy joy.i was feeling hurt because of what was said and done and he thought enough to apologize. joy joy joy.

kk

[linen53]

Forgiveness had stages for me.

First of all, and for many years, I had to forgive myself. I focused on that. I had thought there was something wrong with me to attract such abuse. At that stage forgiving those who had wronged me just seemed wrong and a betrayal to myself. So I concentrated on me.

It was much later after my spiritual awakening and I realized that they were playing a part in my play, that I was able to let go of the past and forgive. Then forgiveness was so easy. I forgave them for themselves. They were no longer captive in the web of my emotions (even though they were dead). Now, I can honestly say that I love them and wish them the best.

[kkfern]

Forgiveness had stages for me.

First of all, and for many years, I had to forgive myself. I focused on that. I had thought there was something wrong with me to attract such abuse. At that stage forgiving those who had wronged me just seemed wrong and a betrayal to myself. So I concentrated on me.

It was much later after my spiritual awakening and I realized that they were playing a part in my play, that I was able to let go of the past and forgive. Then forgiveness was so easy. I forgave them for themselves. They were no longer captive in the web of my emotions (even though they were dead). Now, I can honestly say that I love them and wish them the best.

So glad you found your way
Kk

[Miss Hepburn]

It was much later after my spiritual awakening and I realized that they were
playing a part in my play,.... Hi linen,
I don't know if you know about my decades struggle not forgiving my horrible father*...
went to therapy about it...I knew it was affecting my relationships...I tried to no avail.
I would talk to his spirit and ask him,'WHY? Why? Did you even have children you were so horrible?
Don't you even think when I cross over of being there to greet me!!'
It was bad.

Short version...then suddenly maybe 2 yrs now...I got a vision...could hardly move, that kind...
I saw the whole deal....he was actually my closest friend/buddy.
He loved me so much he agreed, saying "OK, I'll be your father and you'll be a female and
I will treat you the way you treat women.
So you will see how it feels and stop it!"...not respecting their feelings, pooing-pooing
them as frivolous creatures...around 1840-70 in the West.

He was mean to me from the very START as a cute, little, blue-eyed blonde...for NO reason!

That vision of our past erased everything and humbled me to no end...total reversal.
Someone else I care for has been mean to me...and I get that one, also,
and why it was happening and my thing now is,
"Bring it on, Lord...lemme have it to..please teach me to always be kind!"

Put a whole new level on , "Don't judge....ye know not..."


* Gosh so many pages ago...I hope I haven't told this story before on this thread!!
LOL

[linen53]

So appreciated your story Miss Hepburn. It sent chills down my spine, literally. What an awakening you had.

It changes everything. You go from being the victim to being the conqueror. I agree.

[kkfern]

this resolution is easier then last years resolution. last year it was patience. i had to work on it daily. this year forgiveness only comes periodically.

this week at work, it came up again. another part of forgiveness is not really caring. there is a girl at work that has an attitude problem. she and i exchanged words. for me it is kind of like instand karma. if you come at me with an attitude, you will get it right back. she reported me and i reported her. end of story for me.
now to the next step. she is on her second write up for this. one more and she is fired. i really do not care about her being mouthie. but others do. people came to me and wanted me to take the next step and get her fired. they said she is like a cancer in the store and she needs to be gone. they are right. but i have forgiven her even as it happened because i understand the girl.

so it is more then forgiveness. it has turned into doing the right thing, whatever that is, for others. ??????? i haet for her to loose her job but many hate her being around.

kk

[Arcturus]

"Things happen for us not to us"...I like that! I think buying functional presents is a bit of a cheek to be true true. I did get my lad some socks for xmas, which is not a proper pressie I don't think, but I got him other stuff too, so..

As for forgiveness, though, I tend to side with what's attributed to the Buddha on this matter; that forgiveness is a selfish act designed to relinquish the bearer from the burden of their resentment. Why even resent in the first place? Could it be more important to understand why a vacuum as a pressie got your heckles up? I understand why and it would do the same to me but I would ask why it caused me to become annoyed? I don't want to be annoyed, ruffled etc...why don't I say,,,actually I prefer treats for presents, or similar, and leave it at that. We are as guilty for taking offence as the person offending, I think. Why should I allow someone's insensitivity to ruffle me? My emotional wellbeing needs to be independant of the moods and insensitivities of others. If I may, I think you misconstrued Arthri though I haven't read the whole thread. Forget the forgiveness and bear no resentment in the first place, it's much easier and quicker I feel. Tc

[Molearner]

another part of forgiveness is not really caring. there is a girl at work that has an attitude problem. she and i exchanged words. for me it is kind of like instand karma. if you come at me with an attitude, you will get it right back. she reported me and i reported her. end of story for me.


kkfern,

Well, that seems biblical....albeit Old Testament. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Not quite sure that it equates to forgiveness for me but we all have our own understandings.

[kkfern]

not really. i do not do it to get even. it is more of putting a mirror up so they can see themselves. i was not raised with my three brothers for nothing. i have learned not to back down when attacked. so it is not the vengeance of an eye for an eye.

i have become a bit of a hero at work. people come up and say good job standing up to the bully. that is one of the archetypes that i identify with. the stepping in and helping people. with a simple smile or a tough word. i will fight for others before i fight for myself.

kk

[kkfern]

ok update on the Christmas gift. i did get upset with my husband over a bad gift. but it paid off. he learned something.

the next opportunity for a gift was mothers day. i know i am not his mother. but ever since our daughter was killed we get gifts for each other and say it is from her.

for mother's day my "daughter" got me a trip to Washington and Baltimore for the family. my husband son and i will be going. baseball is the theme. we will go to ball games. he likes that part but i like the traveling.

i forgave him long ago and started working on forgiveness as a resolution this year. i did not suspect that not forgiving and speaking up would pay off. maybe just quick forgiving is not the answer. must ponder this.

kk

[kkfern]

OK i thought about it. maybe the whole take on forgiveness is more complicated then doing it for yourself. forgiveness sometimes is equal to "i really do not care enough to make it matter'. but the deep injuries, the ones that wound us greatly, need to be not forgiven sometimes.

those kind of injuries can motivate us to make a difference in this world. to make us strive to make things better. to empower the victim. i have heard of people that have lost loved ones to a disease that motivates them to become doctors.

so maybe we are to quick to forgive.

more pondering needed.

kk

[7luminaries]

OK i thought about it. maybe the whole take on forgiveness is more complicated then doing it for yourself. forgiveness sometimes is equal to "i really do not care enough to make it matter'. but the deep injuries, the ones that wound us greatly, need to be not forgiven sometimes.

those kind of injuries can motivate us to make a difference in this world. to make us strive to make things better. to empower the victim. i have heard of people that have lost loved ones to a disease that motivates them to become doctors.

so maybe we are to quick to forgive.

more pondering needed.

kk

Great thread, KK, and I really liked this last...:hug3:

Peace & blessings,
7L

[kkfern]

i did forgive my sister. i really did. i still have not spoken to her in 10 years because she is toxic. i do understand why she was toxic. more then most people do. she was my sister and i knew everything about her. so i did forgive her.

she passed this morning. i am crying.

kk

[kkfern]

thinking more on forgiveness. one of the four agreements. take nothing personally. if you know it is not about you....then there is nothing to forgive, only pity the person.

when i was young i wrote poetry. one of them was about how i hurt a boy i was going with.

do you not know it is not you.
you are only the one that took the hit.

i was wrong i was bad, i hurt him.

kk

[7luminaries]

KK I'm so sorry for your loss. It's harder when you know that you did what you could but that there was never a true communion of souls.
Letting go is something you do for yourself. Giving for yourself, where the other has not and will not do so.

If they ever do give to you, such that you have their remorse, their turning away (repenting) from cruelty and abuse...then you have the potential for true reconciliation. Absent that, you can always just let go...

You love them regardless, of course, but you also realise that the authentic love you can exchange is stunted if there is no or very little reciprocity.
Water on the rock largely runs off...smoothing it slowly over the aeons.
Only if the rock crumbles into earth can the water and the earth mutually participate and directly reciprocate and nourish one another in the water cycle and in the fullness of life on the planet.

Therefore the love you give to them is always dimmed in its fullness, even when you potentially could or even do give more right this moment. Its fullness is limited because they could neither receive it nor give it in kind. If they cannot, c'est la vie and it is what it is. That's why in many toxic, harmful, or dehumanising situations, it's best to just remove yourself and send love and blessings.

I wish I could remove myself completely from visiting my father. Instead, I steel myself and try to limit the visits. It's bad enough the letter bombs and other things he can send from afar, punctuated with cruelty and thoughtlessness, alongside some well wishes etc.

I completely sympathise with you regarding your sister.
Continually letting go and sending love & blessings from afar is really the ideal in just so, so many situations. That is love and kindness, and once freed of the constraints they impose upon our interaction, we are free to send them unbounded compassion and well wishes. As our hearts should be, free and unbounded.

We deserve some love and kindness, too, though KK, and sometimes we have to be the ones to give that to ourselves by NOT forcing ourselves to show up for toxic folks and toxic sitations.

Peace & blessings :hug:
7L

[Lucyan28]

"Thank you, I forgive you, Forgive me, I love you"

It is such a nice way to forgive everything and move on =)

[kkfern]

well it is almost the end of the year of forgiveness. another thought came to me. my husband is an ex-addict. there was much to forgive with him. he mended the fences with our daughter five years before she was killed. i am soooo grateful for that.

part of forgiveness is not in our hands. it is in the hands of the offender. for that person to change and show a better side. to create a new history of the relationship. my husband has been clean for almost 20 years now. in the beginning it was not about forgiveness. it was about change. i changed by not being a co-dependent. he changed by going to the meetings and learning. he worked at it. it took time.

fast forward 20 years. i never tried to forgive him. i just loved and lived with him. i never forgave him. i just enjoyed how he changed. now, we have a wonderful retirement life. i am grateful. forgiveness is not in our hands . it is in change.

kk

[Lorelyen]

I have been married 37 years. My husband and I rarely fight. But because I wanted to work on forgiveness. We had a fight. Funny how spirit works so fast. Last year for christmans he got me a vacuum. I mean it was a nice vacuum. But I did not want a vacuum. But I forgave him and did not mention it. Then, this year he got me a fancy steam cleaning machine. Talk about doubling down. I was mad. I wondered if I was being too sensitive. I googled vacuum for christmas and it was divided but most said NEVER to do it. So I told him about it this year. Thus the fight.

My hope is to keep this thread going for the year with updates on forgiveness. We will see.

kk

Good God! You forgive someone for giving you a present???

Why not just be grateful and if you don't want it slap it on ebay or give it to someone who wants whatever you don't but can't afford one.

(I volunteer at a food bank occasionally and we get to hear of people who would LOVE a new cleaner or a TV or kettle, etc....)

:rolleyes:

[yeshee camar]

i would addition that knowing a people is not same as passing them on or dar-e porp a different meaning before them.

gone to make proud,
gone to make pay,
a your world.

we adults may be old fool kids, let us sherish the unbounds and glorys our not so trivial world pop up it through, is yea.

we raise ourselfs by wiz, us, so lets halt the tazz angrey withins. we're on it be wise.
we raise ourselfs by wiz, us, so let us halt the tazz angrey withins. was on it is good.








.
.
.
.
.

[yeshee camar]

we be staring at a tv called life all our days where its all pro projected slurp in our day on days, lets take it to that, its an fresh open, so its not serious what i big or what is coorsed, only thing serious is letting off as we do as we are as we be on rain reaction, and we will figure out. and well'en hope forever yer rannor so true.













.

[7luminaries]

well it is almost the end of the year of forgiveness. another thought came to me. my husband is an ex-addict. there was much to forgive with him. he mended the fences with our daughter five years before she was killed. i am soooo grateful for that.

part of forgiveness is not in our hands. it is in the hands of the offender. for that person to change and show a better side. to create a new history of the relationship. my husband has been clean for almost 20 years now. in the beginning it was not about forgiveness. it was about change. i changed by not being a co-dependent. he changed by going to the meetings and learning. he worked at it. it took time.

fast forward 20 years. i never tried to forgive him. i just loved and lived with him. i never forgave him. i just enjoyed how he changed. now, we have a wonderful retirement life. i am grateful. forgiveness is not in our hands . it is in change.

kk

Once again, beautifully said. Agreed, full stop.
The change has been the continual repenting (literally, the turning away) from his prior words and and deeds. And equally important was your change, where you no longer accepted or enabled his old ways.

And the change on both sides made it possible to go forward together, rather than separately.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[ocean breeze]

Good God! You forgive someone for giving you a present???



One of the reasons why i simply give money when i give someone a gift. Its sounds dull but its less hassle on me and it gives them the option to buy whatever the hell they want. I don't have to worry about someone getting mad over a gift or receiving a fake "thank you" only to find out later that the gift has never been used. If a relative gets mad over receiving money then i can just tell them to give it back because i sure as hell would put it to good use.

[kkfern]

well the year is ending and i still need to figure out a new resolution to work on.i learned a lot about forgiveness this year. this year we already opened our gifts. well not really opened, we had it delivered. new living room furniture. my husband learned something too.

what resolutions are people doing this coming year.

kk

[sky]

well the year is ending and i still need to figure out a new resolution to work on.i learned a lot about forgiveness this year. this year we already opened our gifts. well not really opened, we had it delivered. new living room furniture. my husband learned something too.

what resolutions are people doing this coming year.

kk

Why not make a resolution not to make resolutions :smile:

I don't make any so I can't really help you.

[Shivani Devi]

well the year is ending and i still need to figure out a new resolution to work on.i learned a lot about forgiveness this year. this year we already opened our gifts. well not really opened, we had it delivered. new living room furniture. my husband learned something too.

what resolutions are people doing this coming year.

kkI'm making a resolution to go vegetarian and see some natural health practitioners, seeing as how doctors don't know anything. I'm also going to do a course or some educational endeavour.