Idolatry: a common practice in today's world?

[A Glass named Esther]

When I first tried to understand idolatry I thought of the literal version:
a person worshiping a little statue asking it to bring rain, fertility, success, etc. etc.

To some people in this scenario might seem a little ridiculous. I know it seemed a little ridiculous to me :wink: I mean, how can a tiny little figure have that kind of power? While it's possible that someone might pull out a statue of a deity and ask it for a new car, there is a more likely type of idolatry that we can fall prey to.

The essence of idolatry is attributing power to something that does not have such kind of power.

Idolatry began with worshiping nature. I heard that it started with the thought that even though there is G-d, He has "ministers" that should be thanked for doing their job. For example, since the Sun brings light, what's wrong with thanking the Sun? But this easily becomes thanking the Sun without realizing that the Sun's light is actually from G-d. Then it can slide one step further: if you don't thank the Sun, the Sun will stop shining for you, and you will suffer from lack of Sunlight. So, if you want Sunlight, you need to worship the Sun.

With idolatry there is commonly the situation of "getting the cookie". If you worship <insert deity here> you will get what you want. Doing something for a reward is routed in selfishness.

So how does this apply to today's world? Let's say you want a promotion at work because it will give you enough money to buy a new sports car. So, you believe that your boss holds the power to your promotion and the way to get your sports car. There is an important work function that your boss wants you to attend on the same day as your brother's wedding. Your boss dangles the carrot of a promotion telling you that you need to attend the work function if you want to be considered for a promotion. So you skip your brothers wedding. This is essentially idolatry.

Why?

1) You are attributing complete power to something other than G-d. If you are working hard and G-d desires to give you more money, G-d will do so the way He decides. You should ask G-d for more money rather than believing that your boss is the ultimate decider of your wealth.

2) Your focus is on "getting the cookie" rather than doing the right thing.

Idolatry can easily be used to justify selfishness.

The economy is bad, and my money is tight, so I'm not going to have any children.
(I don't believe that G-d will help provide for my family. I believe in the economists and would like to keep my two vacations a year)

I have to make other people look bad at work in order to be successful.
(I don't believe that G-d is One and is everywhere. I believe that the industry/society sets our measures of what is ethical at work)

I know I'm married, but I have an "agreement" with my spouse that we can have some fun on the side as long as we are open about it. We decided it's ok because it's between consenting adults and scientists proved that humans (who are essentially like animals right?) by nature are not monogamous.
(I don't believe in G-d's plan for humanity. I believe in the scientists who can determine what is moral behavior for humans.)


And even...

If I get people to believe in <insert deity here> I will be rewarded in heaven with riches and beautiful women. If I don't believe in said deity, I will experience an eternity of suffering.
(I don't believe that G-d teaches selflessness. I believe that <insert deity here> is important to worship because if I do whatever I'm told I will get lots of rewards.)

-esther

[AHIYAH]

Cool and I was just wondering if disobeying the commandments of YHWH given to Moses is a form of idolatry. Yes that was a rhetorical statement. Since there is a commandment that forbids a certain people from mentioning the names of other gods and they go along and use a name of a pagan deity for their calendar month if that is seen as idolatry. I'd say so. Oh and by the way that so called Jewish calendar doesn't even line up with the so called scriptural calendar so I was wondering if that was idolatry.

[dybmh]

Cool and I was just wondering if disobeying the commandments of YHWH given to Moses is a form of idolatry. Yes that was a rhetorical statement. Since there is a commandment that forbids a certain people from mentioning the names of other gods and they go along and use a name of a pagan deity for their calendar month if that is seen as idolatry. I'd say so. Oh and by the way that so called Jewish calendar doesn't even line up with the so called scriptural calendar so I was wondering if that was idolatry.

My opinion...

Question: "A Jewish person disobeying the commandments of YHWH given to Moses is a form of idolatry?"

Answer: "Yes, if it is done **knowingly**"

But in regard to the OP...

The most common form of idolatry from a Jewish perspective: Anger.

Reference: Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, chapter 29:

"Our Rabbis of blessed memory said furthermore, "If anyone becomes angry it is considered as though he worships idols, and the torments of Gehinnom will be inflicted on him as it is written, "Therefore, remove anger from your heart and put away evil from your body."

What is the "Kitzur Schulchan Aruch"? It is, arguably, the most common, most popular reference used for Halacha, Jewish Law. Per Wikipedia: It "establishes what is allowed, and what is not allowed without ambiguity".

[little.nation]

So, a spiritual source I believe was God itself took me through idolatry.

To appreciate the lesson, there are crucial facts to know.

In 2007 I set out on a journey that started by prayer and faith. The journey came to rest almost 2 years later in a town with a biblical name.

Bethel means: house of god, house where god lives, house of idolatry, a holy place.

Imagine how utterly blown my mind was when the name of the road I live on is the last name of some people I had been idol worshiping (without consciously knowing I had been idol worshiping).

Here's what happened: I was taken up into a vast empty space where nothing existed but the idol. It was revealed through knowing that he was not God. I knew all the things he could not do for me. He couldn't, because he isn't God.

An idol can be anything but most commonly occurs in the form of who it is we love and look to the most.

With that particular idol, he spoke to me personally (although indirectly) and so he became my idol. His messages were deeply and incredibly and powerfully personal and so you can see how idolatry formed.

It's funny you mentioned statues. That's been coming up in my world a lot lately, and just this morning I clicked a link of pictures showing a bunch of Catholics bowing to statues. That is certainly idol worship and something God forbids.

[Fernworm]

Incredibly interesting post. It's blowing my mind to think of all the ways I am accidentally idol worshipping - and I love what OP quoted above about anger. I am really trying to work on my irritability as I know when I react in such a way, I'm straying from G-d's path. I will keep that in mind next time I feel as if it's my responsibility to tell someone off and only cause more pain in the world.

[BigJohn]

Cool and I was just wondering if disobeying the commandments of YHWH given to Moses is a form of idolatry. Yes that was a rhetorical statement. Since there is a commandment that forbids a certain people from mentioning the names of other gods and they go along and use a name of a pagan deity for their calendar month if that is seen as idolatry. I'd say so. Oh and by the way that so called Jewish calendar doesn't even line up with the so called scriptural calendar so I was wondering if that was idolatry.

I understand the Jewish calendar, but what is the scriptural calendar?

[BigJohn]

Incredibly interesting post. It's blowing my mind to think of all the ways I am accidentally idol worshipping - and I love what OP quoted above about anger. I am really trying to work on my irritability as I know when I react in such a way, I'm straying from G-d's path. I will keep that in mind next time I feel as if it's my responsibility to tell someone off and only cause more pain in the world.


The love of money can be a form of idolatry.

[Still_Waters]

The love of money can be a form of idolatry.

While the love of money is an obvious form of idolatry, theology can also be a form of idolatry as it can obscure the clear vision. Theological concepts can interfere with one's re-connection with God.

(We discussed this subject at length in a Bible study group focusing on 1 Samuel as theological concepts were raised and questioned during the discussion.)

[sky]

While the love of money is an obvious form of idolatry, theology can also be a form of idolatry as it can obscure the clear vision. Theological concepts can interfere with one's re-connection with God.

(We discussed this subject at length in a Bible study group focusing on 1 Samuel as theological concepts were raised and questioned during the discussion.)


Excessive devotion to anything is a form of idolatry, including religion....

[Still_Waters]

Excessive devotion to anything is a form of idolatry, including religion....

Most people don't realize that when it applies to "religion" but it's true, as you duly indicated. :smile: :thumbsup:

[sky]

Most people don't realize that when it applies to "religion" but it's true, as you duly indicated. :smile: :thumbsup:

I presume when you are totally immersed in something you become blinkered....

[BigJohn]

POP GOES THE WEASEL!



.................:spam4: .................:spam4: .................:spam4:


.................:spam4: .................:spam4:

[Still_Waters]

POP GOES THE WEASEL!



.................:spam4: .................:spam4: .................:spam4:


.................:spam4: .................:spam4:


At least, that account got suspended quickly. It's too bad that the moderators didn't delete that SPAM post as well. Such is life.

[BigJohn]

While the love of money is an obvious form of idolatry, theology can also be a form of idolatry as it can obscure the clear vision. Theological concepts can interfere with one's re-connection with God.

(We discussed this subject at length in a Bible study group focusing on 1 Samuel as theological concepts were raised and questioned during the discussion.)

Hmmmmmm.....................

that is why I seek out source material.


Good point, Still_Waters!

[Still_Waters]

Hmmmmmm.....................

that is why I seek out source material.


Good point, Still_Waters!



I too try to go directly to the Source. :biggrin:

[BigJohn]

When it comes to source material, I believe I have a copy of all
the main texts used as the source material for the various Bibles.
One of my favorites is the Westcott and Hort text.

[Still_Waters]

When it comes to source material, I believe I have a copy of all
the main texts used as the source material for the various Bibles.
One of my favorites is the Westcott and Hort text.

I shall check that one out. Thanks for the info.

[BigJohn]

Masoretic Text
Nestle-Aland Text
Westcott and Hort Text
Received Text (Textus Receptus)
Majority Text (Byzantine text)
and there are others...........

[Pewdiepie]

What about celebrity idolatry?

We've all seen it. Typically you see pre-pubescent women and sometimes full grown men fawning and screaming in the presence of their favorite celebrity, asking for an autograph, not washing their hand for months if they manage to "touch" their idol.

Same thing with politicians. The democrat party literally worshipped Obama and Hillary as their saviors. Now the Republican Party is doing something similar with Trump.

I truly believe celebrity obsession is the idol worshipping of the 21 century.

Same thing with electronics. You see how some people react when they don't have their smartphone.

Same thing with Big Government. Big government will give you everything, it is the beast in the Bible.

[BigJohn]

What about celebrity idolatry?

We've all seen it. Typically you see pre-pubescent women and sometimes full grown men fawning and screaming in the presence of their favorite celebrity, asking for an autograph, not washing their hand for months if they manage to "touch" their idol.

Same thing with politicians. The democrat party literally worshipped Obama and Hillary as their saviors. Now the Republican Party is doing something similar with Trump.

I truly believe celebrity obsession is the idol worshipping of the 21 century.

Same thing with electronics. You see how some people react when they don't have their smartphone.

Same thing with Big Government. Big government will give you everything, it is the beast in the Bible.

You seem to be very observant. Nice points.

[Still_Waters]

What about celebrity idolatry?

We've all seen it. Typically you see pre-pubescent women and sometimes full grown men fawning and screaming in the presence of their favorite celebrity, asking for an autograph, not washing their hand for months if they manage to "touch" their idol.

Same thing with politicians. The democrat party literally worshipped Obama and Hillary as their saviors. Now the Republican Party is doing something similar with Trump.

I truly believe celebrity obsession is the idol worshipping of the 21 century.

Same thing with electronics. You see how some people react when they don't have their smartphone.

Same thing with Big Government. Big government will give you everything, it is the beast in the Bible.


I agree with BigJohn. You have raised some very good points about "idolatry".

[Pewdiepie]

You seem to be very observant. Nice points.


Thanks.

Also I'm Jewish and I was taught that worshipping Jesus is a form of idol worship. I tend to take a more moderate view of that, and so I personally admire the personality traits and actions of the textual Jesus but at the same time I don't think that he is the Son of God

[7luminaries]

Agreed...worshipping anyone is a form of idol worship :D Definitely including Jesus, Buddha (i.e., Siddharta Gautama), or whomever...

As is the worshipping of / obsession with / enslavement to any of our desires or any material aspect of existence:

Money, sex, violence, power, control...
Ego worshipping and ego gratification...
Reification or deification of any concept or thing or person...

..what else did I leave out?

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Altair]

Idolatry: 1) The worship of idols, 1.1) Extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/idolatry

To me, ''Idolatry'' is not a negative thing. It's also about a reverence for all the beautiful and worthwhile things in life. Many people enjoy sunbathing, others love exploring nature, enjoying the frequent company of other people. With definition 1.1 we can also include any sort of religious practice, whether that is worship of a divinity or a love of a spiritual practice.

Is ''idolatry'' common in today's world? Most certainly! And guess what, it has always been and always will. It is part of the human experience. Accusing other people or belief systems of ''idolatry'' hints at religious supremacism, another way of saying ''We don't do that, we eschew and hate the external world. Bah! We don't need any art! Our God is invisible!'' It's sober, almost depressingly so. The term ''idolatry'' is then used in insulting ways, to condemn other beliefs.

[BigJohn]

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/idolatry

To me, ''Idolatry'' is not a negative thing. It's also about a reverence for all the beautiful and worthwhile things in life. Many people enjoy sunbathing, others love exploring nature, enjoying the frequent company of other people. With definition 1.1 we can also include any sort of religious practice, whether that is worship of a divinity or a love of a spiritual practice.

Is ''idolatry'' common in today's world? Most certainly! And guess what, it has always been and always will. It is part of the human experience. Accusing other people or belief systems of ''idolatry'' hints at religious supremacism, another way of saying ''We don't do that, we eschew and hate the external world. Bah! We don't need any art! Our God is invisible!'' It's sober, almost depressingly so. The term ''idolatry'' is then used in insulting ways, to condemn other beliefs
.
I always found it interesting to see picture(s) of God Jesus in the Catholic Catechism ....... they do not look the same.

[Still_Waters]

Agreed...worshipping anyone is a form of idol worship :D Definitely including Jesus, Buddha (i.e., Siddharta Gautama), or whomever...

As is the worshipping of / obsession with / enslavement to any of our desires or any material aspect of existence:

Money, sex, violence, power, control...
Ego worshipping and ego gratification...
Reification or deification of any concept or thing or person...

..what else did I leave out?

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L


You left out THEOLOGY, the conceptual stuff that gets one bogged down in intellectualism and obscures the clear vision.

:D :D :D

[sky]

You left out THEOLOGY, the conceptual stuff that gets one bogged down in intellectualism and obscures the clear vision.

:D :D :D


Thankfully the voice of reason prevails.... :hug2:

[Still_Waters]

You left out THEOLOGY, the conceptual stuff that gets one bogged down in intellectualism and obscures the clear vision.

:D :D :D


Thankfully the voice of reason prevails.... :hug2:

Yes. The voice of reason eventually does prevail but sometimes it takes so long for that to happen. :smile:

[sky]

Yes. The voice of reason eventually does prevail but sometimes it takes so long for that to happen. :smile:



Better late than never.... You have to have patience and that's a virtue according to Piers Plowman

[Still_Waters]

Better late than never.... You have to have patience and that's a virtue according to Piers Plowman

Eventually, when one meditates with no expectations, all that is important to know is revealed.

Patience is indeed necessary ! Things happen quite naturally when the "timing" is right ! :biggrin:

[7luminaries]

You left out THEOLOGY, the conceptual stuff that gets one bogged down in intellectualism and obscures the clear vision.

:D :D :D
Hehehehe....NO I did not :wink: as that can be included in
"Reification or deification of any concept or thing or person...",
depending on one's individual relationship to the thing or concept... and NOT on the "thing" or "concept" itself.

That is the "easy out" too many look for, to point the finger at something externally 1st, rather than 1st looking within.
Granted, if it is imposed upon you externally on pain of death, like rape or slavery, it's understood it make take time to extricate the heart and mind from the trauma.

But for most of our iniquities, we ourselves choose them repeatedly, and we idolise them & fetishise them above all else in pure service to self-gratification. We ourselves, and not another.
No matter what is put forward or where we find ourselves, it is we who choose to connect to what is right-aligned or misaligned, in any situation, environment, or larger context.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[7luminaries]

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/idolatry

To me, ''Idolatry'' is not a negative thing. It's also about a reverence for all the beautiful and worthwhile things in life. Many people enjoy sunbathing, others love exploring nature, enjoying the frequent company of other people. With definition 1.1 we can also include any sort of religious practice, whether that is worship of a divinity or a love of a spiritual practice.

Is ''idolatry'' common in today's world? Most certainly! And guess what, it has always been and always will. It is part of the human experience. Accusing other people or belief systems of ''idolatry'' hints at religious supremacism, another way of saying ''We don't do that, we eschew and hate the external world. Bah! We don't need any art! Our God is invisible!'' It's sober, almost depressingly so. The term ''idolatry'' is then used in insulting ways, to condemn other beliefs.

Altair, IMO, with all due resepct, IMO it's best to not get too hung up on the word or the term itself. It's simply about holding your self-gratification and your pleasures and fetishes above all else, most importantly other sentient beings (and the sacred contained within them), and the trauma you do to them in the name of getting what you want.

That's what is meant by the term in all its normal usage, including many religious text BTW. Not that I don't get that when the term is used callously by religious extremists who approve of the use of violence, it's dangerous.

But on that same point, when men see women as tools to use for their pleasure -- including the epidemic levels of rape, assault, and coercion -- that too is dangerous. To elevate one sort of violent obsession or fetish or "idolatry" (say extreme Islam's condoning violence toward non-believers) over another (widespread sexual violence and sexual access to others on demand as normative) reflects your massive privilege as a Western male.

Just saying :wink:...I see truth all round, so even if I may focus on one side or the other, I often come down somewhere in the broad middle just shining a little light on what has been ignored.

Meaning, when you pick one side over the other regarding the iniquity of humanity, you are bound to end up displaying some bias or privilege. But for many of us, we have to face many of the SAME sorts violent outcomes of "idolatry" in either social or cultural setting.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Altair]

Altair, IMO, with all due resepct, IMO it's best to not get too hung up on the word or the term itself. It's simply about holding your self-gratification and your pleasures and fetishes above all else, most importantly other sentient beings (and the sacred contained within them), and the trauma you do to them in the name of getting what you want.
That's what is meant by the term in all its normal usage, including many religious text BTW. Not that I don't get that when the term is used callously by religious extremists who approve of the use of violence, it's dangerous.

I think that's more how you view it, 7L. If we look throughout history we can find people of Abrahamic faiths tearing down beautiful statues, burning libraries, and cutting down old, sacred oaks all because they didn't like other people having different beliefs. The art, literature, and nature was all seen as idolatry.

We've lost many treasures, man-made and natural, because of this desire to fight idolatry, and replace all of the joy in the world with a colourless world of doom and gloom. That's been the theme whenever certain groups gain significant power. You can look at Protestant fundies [throughout history and many sects today] or Islamic extremists [like ISIS] if in need of examples.

As for pleasure. What you think of here is a context in which it is used as violence. Still, we all hold pleasure in a high regard, whether that's food, drink, sex, exercise, movies, books, holidays, or anything spiritual. We all seek and want pleasure: 1] A feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment [https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pleasure].

[Still_Waters]

You left out THEOLOGY, the conceptual stuff that gets one bogged down in intellectualism and obscures the clear vision.

:D :D

Hehehehe....NO I did not :wink: as that can be included in
"Reification or deification of any concept or thing or person...",
depending on one's individual relationship to the thing or concept... and NOT on the "thing" or "concept" itself.

That is the "easy out" too many look for, to point the finger at something externally 1st, rather than 1st looking within.
Granted, if it is imposed upon you externally on pain of death, like rape or slavery, it's understood it make take time to extricate the heart and mind from the trauma.

But for most of our iniquities, we ourselves choose them repeatedly, and we idolise them & fetishise them above all else in pure service to self-gratification. We ourselves, and not another.
No matter what is put forward or where we find ourselves, it is we who choose to connect to what is right-aligned or misaligned, in any situation, environment, or larger context.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

Well said. Your verbiage did indeed include THEOLOGY. :smile:

[7luminaries]

I think that's more how you view it, 7L. If we look throughout history we can find people of Abrahamic faiths tearing down beautiful statues, burning libraries, and cutting down old, sacred oaks all because they didn't like other people having different beliefs. The art, literature, and nature was all seen as idolatry.

We've lost many treasures, man-made and natural, because of this desire to fight idolatry, and replace all of the joy in the world with a colourless world of doom and gloom. That's been the theme whenever certain groups gain significant power. You can look at Protestant fundies [throughout history and many sects today] or Islamic extremists [like ISIS] if in need of examples.

As for pleasure. What you think of here is a context in which it is used as violence. Still, we all hold pleasure in a high regard, whether that's food, drink, sex, exercise, movies, books, holidays, or anything spiritual. We all seek and want pleasure: 1] A feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment [https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pleasure].

Altair, I am not supporting ISIS for chrissake :tongue: Not any religious orthodoxy that condones violence or uses their beliefs to treat other people and cultures cruelly, violently, or without lovingkindness or compassion. However, it's not religion or spiritual traditions per se that inflict oppression and conformity. It's any and all totalitarian power structures, regardless of belief. Loads of dictators inflict the same context on their peoples today. It's the insatiable lust for power and the need to control that produce oppression and conformity, not the particulars of the belief set behind it.

And no, we as individual humanity don't all seek and want pleasure first and foremost.
We seek (some of us) and want meaning and peace and honour in our lives. We seek to live first and foremost in authentic love (lovingkindness and equanimity) with ourselves and others and with All that Is.

I have to disagree with your statement about pleasure seeking. For example, mums for one -- and many others -- find joy and peace in service and in love and in commitment to right-alignment. It cannot be in search of your feels or you will raise a stunted child who lacks love. Which is a deeply abusive act to perpetrate on another. This is a really, really basic lesson.

Ultimately seeking something for pleasure of self-gratification is hollow, desultory, and self-serving, and this is a lesson we learn very early on in the journey, in my experience.
What I said still stands. And we simply can't justify our own inability to take ownership and look in the mirror by pointing to the past OR to other (even more egregious) actors at present like ISIS, LOL...or Epstein, etc.,... :rolleyes:

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Altair]

And no, we as individual humanity don't all seek and want pleasure first and foremost.

''Pleasure'', broadly defined, is a feeling of happy satisfaction and enjoyment. This moves every human being every day. It is inescapable. Even spiritual practices, with the aim to ''go beyond'', still show us the hard mirror of us wanting something and seeking experiences. You mention peace and love but they too are an experience of satisfaction and enjoyment. Or do you think peace is unsatisfactory or is peace an unenjoyable experience?

Humans are pleasure seekers. The fact that some want violence or only pleasure for themselves does not make the idea of pleasure itself bad. But lets put it to the test, practically. Did you enjoy your meal today, or did you make it very distasteful just to make sure you wouldn't enjoy it? :wink:

[7luminaries]

Hey there Altair, TBH...hahaha...I am not a huge foodie and eat simple foods mainly, to fuel the body, but I do prefer clean and sustainable food because it's better for us and Gaia.
BUT I recognise that a satiation response for food or liquid is key to survival and that lets us know that it's good to nourish and water the body.

That is different that obsessing over food or drink.
I enjoy most meals if they are clean and nourishing..and many would find much of what I eat plain or distasteful...even unpleasant unless they like GF whole grains, a lot of raw veggies and white proteins, and very little cooking oil. I prefer my fats raw and unheated if possible and just use what I must to cook eggs or protein in a skillet. My main liquids are water, tea or coffee if needed. And fruit or sweet is my least favourite taste but I eat them daily anyway :D When I was sad or low I discovered the occasional piece of dark chocolate helped mood but in the main I just crave fat & protein to fuel the brain & the body - and I recognise that we do each have a sacred temple which we must care for.

Having issues (have to eat GF and cannot do cow's dairy or anything too heavy or bad fats *gag*)...I most appreciate food that is pure and unadulterated, just like I cannot stand artificial scent on folks. Soap is good when it smells of simple and natural origins, or else of nothing :D
I am not caught up in most of the stuff that many would label as pleasure and I don't find it to be nourishing to the soul, beyond items needed for survival and health, such as nature, meditation, and engaging with self, Source and others in deep, meaningful, and challenging ways.

I do agree that the sublime joy of being IS the reward for being here now and being love now.
But that is not about focusing on the feels and the rush for their own sake, nor pursuing them for their own sake, and so that is not the pleasure seeking you describe.

When you too can see the difference then we'll be having a different conversation.
More about that sublime joy of being and how it is so much more encompassing and amazing than any momentary thing :hug3:
This is why I speak of authentic love...because it is always relevant, to any context, moment, relationship, or lifetime.

Peace & blessings :wink:
7L

[Altair]

I do agree that the sublime joy of being IS the reward for being here now and being love now.
But that is not about focusing on the feels and the rush for their own sake, nor pursuing them for their own sake, and so that is not the pleasure seeking you describe.

But 7L, what is the ''pleasure'' that I do describe?? :tongue:
I am not advocating some lavish, over-indulgent lifestyle or anything. Never have advocated for such, although I think it's fine if others want to do so, provided it does not cause harm to other humans or animals. I'm rather modest myself in lifestyle, and also do not partake in such things as meat, alcohol, coffee. Pleasure is simply satisfaction/enjoyment, and nothing more. So it can be anything you want it to be, and I think that's a good starting point. And in that sense we are all pleasure seekers, just towards different things, either beneficial or harmful.

Back to ''idolatry''. I feel the same about that one. Idolatry can be anything you want it to be. Some religions just decide what is and what isn't, but to another religion the worship of a personal god, even without an image representation, can be viewed as idolatrous. I don't really see any important difference, and I view any physical 'idol' as just a useful focus point for worship or spiritual practice. It shouldn't matter if someone else worships ''idols''. What really matters are the fruits of any belief or spiritual practice.:smile:

[BigJohn]

Back to ''idolatry''. I feel the same about that one. Idolatry can be anything you want it to be. Some religions just decide what is and what isn't, but to another religion the worship of a personal god, even without an image representation, can be viewed as idolatrous. I don't really see any important difference, and I view any physical 'idol' as just a useful focus point for worship or spiritual practice. It shouldn't matter if someone else worships ''idols''. What really matters are the fruits of any belief or spiritual practice.:smile:
This is the Jewish sub-forum.

As for idolatry.... Jew are careful as to what they eat and drink. As for drinking, grape juice is not allowed unless it is koshered.

REASON: Idolaters generally use grape juice in idolatry worship.

[Still_Waters]

This is the Jewish sub-forum.

As for idolatry.... Jew are careful as to what they eat and drink. As for drinking, grape juice is not allowed unless it is koshered.

REASON: Idolaters generally use grape juice in idolatry worship.

Your "reason" is classic ! :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:

[BigJohn]

Your "reason" is classic ! :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:
Your words always rises my spirit, thank you.

[7luminaries]

But 7L, what is the ''pleasure'' that I do describe?? :tongue:
I am not advocating some lavish, over-indulgent lifestyle or anything. Never have advocated for such, although I think it's fine if others want to do so, provided it does not cause harm to other humans or animals. I'm rather modest myself in lifestyle, and also do not partake in such things as meat, alcohol, coffee. Pleasure is simply satisfaction/enjoyment, and nothing more. So it can be anything you want it to be, and I think that's a good starting point. And in that sense we are all pleasure seekers, just towards different things, either beneficial or harmful.

Back to ''idolatry''. I feel the same about that one. Idolatry can be anything you want it to be. Some religions just decide what is and what isn't, but to another religion the worship of a personal god, even without an image representation, can be viewed as idolatrous. I don't really see any important difference, and I view any physical 'idol' as just a useful focus point for worship or spiritual practice. It shouldn't matter if someone else worships ''idols''. What really matters are the fruits of any belief or spiritual practice.:smile:
Altair :D
Not to be too nitpicky...but...

I don't resonate with worship of a physical being...or non-physical being like a guide, a master, or a transcendental. It's neither helpful nor necessary and TBH I see it as a simplistic and often harmful way to put one's personal ownership onto others. Why not simply directly ask for and directly seek guidance, and then look to others as examples of true spiritual virtue (like the transcendentals) but not as gods or objects of worship?

Also, as you discuss, it feels like you still may have it backwards. It's not the seeking of pleasure (even from doing good stuff) that is the focus, IMO. It's doing and being authentic love. Lovingkindness and equanimity. That is the focus. One outcome - and NOT the main thing itself -- is a resultant sublime joy of being, which is another way of saying it is simply your ground of being at centre. It is just WHAT YOU ARE :hug3: Many miss it entirely if they are looking for big feels or a rush or a high.

But if we align with centre with a focus on being and doing authentic love, then what we are is simply that...what the Vedic mystics refer to as ananda...and which we would call both ahava and yirah...the sublime joy which is the ground of being. And without which, the universe cannot exist.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Still_Waters]

Altair :D
Not to be too nitpicky...but...

I don't resonate with worship of a physical being...or non-physical being like a guide, a master, or a transcendental. It's neither helpful nor necessary and TBH I see it as a simplistic and often harmful way to put one's personal ownership onto others. Why not simply directly ask for and directly seek guidance, and then look to others as examples of true spiritual virtue (like the transcendentals) but not as gods or objects of worship?



Hazrat Inayat Khan once said, "The ideal is the means; breaking it is the goal".

Hence, I don't criticize people who "look to others as examples" (as you wrote) or even worship them (temporarily). My sense is that it's just a stage until one becomes a light unto one's self.

[Altair]

7L, what you may grasp at here is the underlying sense of an eternal source, which as a consequence of whatever reason [karma? experiencing the universe for adventure's sake?] is often experienced momentarily. Many forms of pleasures can be misguided but the underlying desire is one of being in that moment. You are adding a layer on top of what I mentioned. I don't see any cause here for disagreement.

As for worshipping representations and images; in a way this does relate to what I just said previously. The image/representation is a temporary means, something that [may] change, but there's an underlying sense or experience [possibly] of connecting to something greater. In any case, I think there's a lot more to ''idolatry'' than that it's just about worshipping something physical or imaginary. That's how I feel about it when people worship deities, or the Sun and Moon, and so forth. There's much more to it than physical worship. It can for instance also be about focus and remembering what you like to be(come). There's a lot to it, and you'll have to ask each individual person what it means to them. It can be as complicated [or simplistic] as you want it to be. It's in the eye of the beholder.

The purely physical aspect is just the surface, but still I think that is, from a cultural point of view, also a beautiful part of human creativity.. :smile:

[BigJohn]

If one 'worships' in truth and love, idolatry disappears.