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Valus
03-12-2010, 05:44 PM
A lot of people don't know this...

In the early 1900's,
doctors were divided into two camps:
Allopaths and Homeopaths

These terms don't have the same meanings today, but the former meanings are still useful for understanding the conflict and division that still exists within medicine. Briefly, the homeopathic method is to treat disease naturally in order that the body's immune system may rebuild and defend itself, while the allopathic method is to treat merely the symptoms of disease by using synthetic and abrasive methods.

An example of allopathic medicine that was wildly popular in the Middle Ages was bloodletting. One famous example relates the experience of George Washington, who was bled of half the blood in his body by allopathic physicians seeking to cure his strep throat. When this didn't work, they gave him a 650mg pill of Mercury to swallow. He died the next day.

At the turn of the last century, the conflict between these two schools was at a fever pitch. Allopaths were quickly losing their patients to homeopaths, and the future of medicine looked bright. The AMA (American Medical Association) was created as a brotherhood of allopathic doctors, seeking to defend their methods against the rampant success of the homeopaths.

"... we have never fought the homeopath on matters of principle. We fought him because he came into our community and got the business."
(~ Dr. J.N. McCormack, AMA, 1903)

The AMA, in its mission to destroy the homeopaths, began a sustained campaign to slander homeopathy and its practitioners as "charlatans" and "quacks". Big business was quick to ally itself with the AMA, seeing a source of potential wealth in their methods, as opposed to the homeopaths, whose patients were too quickly cured, and, so, could not remain patients (i.e. paying customers). Once this happened, it was all downhill.

With the help of big business, the AMA was able to take control of the press, and to change the curriculum, graduating requirements, and licensing laws in the medical schools of the time. This all served to drive out the competition -- the true doctors. Allopathic medicine emerged as the victor, and the vast majority of us have been the unwitting victims of this scandal ever since.

For more information,
see the documentary:

Healing Cancer from inside out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xkyMAYmrQY

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I --
I took the road less traveled by.
And that has made all the difference."
~ Robert Frost

"I had a fast-growing conviction
that a hospital is no place for a
person who is seriously ill."
~ Norman Cousins

"The thing that bugs me is that people
think the FDA is protecting them. It isn't.
What the FDA is doing, and what the public thinks
it's doing are as different as night and day."
~ Herbert Lay
Former Commissioner of the FDA

"The FDA is serving industry rather than the public."
~ Dr. David Graham
Senior drug safety researcher at the FDA
who blew the whistle on Vioxx

"The Food and Drug Administration (FDA)
is largely controlled by the orthodox medical
profession.. and the industries which the FDA
was set up to regulate."
~ Miles Robinson, M.D.
Head of a Congressional Committee
investigating allegations of a conspiracy
to suppress alternative therapies

"The Inquisition is still with us.
It is called The Food and Drug Administration..
The National Cancer Institute.. The American Cancer Society
and the AMA. They are allied together to destroy
innovation in modern times."
~ Robert G. Houston

"We have a multi-billion dollar industry
that is killing people, right and left,
just for financial gain."
~ Glenn Warner, M.D.

"They lie like scoundrels."
~ Dean Burke, Ph.D.
regarding the American Cancer Society

"It is now illegal to find a cure for Cancer."
~ Pat McGrady, Jr.

"[Chemotherapy is] a marvellous opportunity
for rampant deceit. So much money is there to be made.."
~ George Lundberg, M.D.
editor of the Journal of The American Medical Association

"Half of the modern drugs could well be thrown out
the window, except that the birds would eat them."
~ M. HI Fischer, M.D.

"The cure for cancer will not be found
under a microscope. It's on the dinner plate."
~ Dr. Paul Stitt

"Cancer is most frequent
where carnivorous habits prevail."
~ Scientific American, 1892

Chrysaetos
03-12-2010, 05:58 PM
Well, I much rather go with ''allopathic'' medicine, at least they are tested scientifically.

Homoeopathy so far is all about anecdotal evidence and feel-goody, it works as a placebo for small issues.. and I'm fine with that. But I know what I prefer.

Gracey
03-12-2010, 06:00 PM
huh, i learned a lot today. thanks for sharing.

Moon Willow
03-12-2010, 07:47 PM
I'm definitely side with the homeopathic way of medicine. I see it as everything in nature is perfectly balanced, and nature has a cure for every imbalance so why change perfection. Our bodies are a part of nature and are amazing at healing themselves. If I get sick I like to use herbal medicines to help support my body and then use good foods to help my body repair itself. People say that homeopathic medicine isn't tried and tested...well, it has been used successfully for thousands of years...surely that's enough?

If it got to the point where the homeopathic stuff isn't working, then yes I would give some allopathic things a try but it would be my last resort. I also know that allopathic medicine usually makes me sicker than the original complaint too, which is another reason why I stick with medicinal herbs. It scares me to that most drug trials that are done are not independantly tested and there is just too much money at stake for me to believe that the truth is always told.

Just my thoughts for the day.

Moony x x x

Chrysaetos
03-12-2010, 08:30 PM
People say that homeopathic medicine isn't tried and tested...well, it has been used successfully for thousands of years...surely that's enough? No, homeopathy is recent. Who's saying that ''allopathic'' medicine are not ''natural''? They don't come from another planet. If it got to the point where the homeopathic stuff isn't working, then yes I would give some allopathic things a try but it would be my last resort.Other question: If you need surgery, do you go to the hospital or do you go to a witch doctor?

In the last few centuries we have gotten much older, thanks to science and medicine. Before that, we had thousands of years of ''natural'' remedies, and it wasn't all sunshine.
Homeopathy can function as a placebo for small issues, but it's really unhealthy to challenge your own health because of ideological beliefs.

Scibat
03-12-2010, 08:34 PM
Well, I much rather go with ''allopathic'' medicine, at least they are tested scientifically.

By the same scientists who condemn homeopathy, sort of letting the fox guard the henhouse. Of course allopathy is going to work and homeopathy fail or only be successful due to a 'placebo' effect because that is what is best for the AMA and big pharmaceutical industries.

Chrysaetos
03-12-2010, 08:40 PM
By the same scientists who condemn homeopathy, sort of letting the fox guard the henhouse. Of course allopathy is going to work and homeopathy fail or only be successful due to a 'placebo' effect because that is what is best for the AMA and big pharmaceutical industries.Why don't you do some research into homeopathy? Go and see what they put in it etc.

Valus
03-12-2010, 08:42 PM
Chrysaetos,

"Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn." (~Benjamin Franklin) If you want evidence, you first have to look for it. This means having an open mind to the possibility that there is a bigger picture here. We imagine that, if there were solid evidence, then these alternative treatments would be the norm. But there are many factors which prevent people from examining the evidence, and then changing the way medicine is done.

For instance, just suppose for a moment that a revolutionary breakthrough has occurred, making most modern treatments obsolete. What do you suppose would happen? Would the medical industry re-invent itself overnight? Would diplomas be taken back, tuitions refunded, and billions of dollars worth of equipment thrown out? Would the people who have fortunes to lose simply stand aside gracefully, and allow progress to go forward? OR, would they do everything in their power to prevent the discovery from being recognized and embraced?

The fact is, this is what happened in the 20th century. You can read the book "When Healing Becomes A Crime", and learn about the suppression of the Hoxsey Cancer clinics, and you can read "The Gerson Therapy", and learn about the similar story of Max Gerson. The fact is, the proof is there, but lots of money is being made keeping people sick. The ones who can afford to do so are paying so-called doctors to claim that these things have been discredited (and this is what is taught in the medical schools), when in fact, they continue to show results far exceeding anything the mainstream treatments have produced.

Have you ever been in an intensive care unit? They give you hamburgers and pepsi. In the ICU!!!! This alone should be enough to pique your suspicions, and get you wondering about the truth.


Thanks Gracey.

Well said, Moony.

Valus
03-12-2010, 08:45 PM
Chysaetos,

I hope you are referring to natural cures,
and not to what we commonly refer to today as homeopathy.
In the second sentence of my first post, I made it clear
that these words have different meanings now.

Also, bear in mind that you're only repeating the popular view.
Now consider a view arrived at through independent research.

Here's some healthy food for thought:

"Dying To Have Known"

In DYING TO HAVE KNOWN, filmmaker Steve Kroschel went on a 52-day journey to find evidence to the effectiveness of the Gerson Therapy -- a long-suppressed natural cancer cure.

His travels take him across both the Atlantic and the Pacific Oceans, from upstate New York to San Diego to Alaska, from Japan and Holland to Spain and Mexico. In the end, he presents the testimonies of patients, scientists, surgeons and nutritionists who testify to the therapy’s efficacy in curing cancer and other degenerative diseases, and presents the hard scientific proof to back up their claims. You will hear from a Japanese medical school professor who cured himself of liver cancer over 15 years ago, a lymphoma patient who was diagnosed as terminal over 50 years ago as well as noted critics of this world-renowned healing method who dismiss it out of hand as “pure quackery.”

So the question that remains is, “Why is this powerful curative therapy still suppressed, more than 75 years after it was clearly proven to cure degenerative disease?” The viewers are left to decide for themselves.

from Cinema Libre Studios
http://www.cinemalibrestudio.com/EarthNow/dying.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cinemalibrestudio. com%2FEarthNow%2Fdying.html)

Dying To Have Known (80 min.) WATCH NOW!!!
1http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7357629140536485998#

Charlotte Gerson lecture "The Gerson Therapy":
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8384134159042346609# (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvid eoplay%3Fdocid%3D-8384134159042346609%23)

See Also:
HEALING CANCER From Inside Out, The Beautiful Truth,
The Gerson Miracle, Food Inc., and The Future Of Food

"The most important things are the hardest things to say. They are the things you get ashamed of because words diminish your feelings - words shrink things that seem timeless when they are in your head to no more than living size when they are brought out. But it's more than that, isn't it? The most important things lie too close to wherever your secret heart is buried, like landmarks to a treasure your enemies would love to steal away. And you may make revelations that cost you dearly only to have people look at you in a funny way, not understanding what you've said at all, or why you thought it was so important that you almost cried while you were saying it. That's the worst, I think. When the secret stays locked within, not for want of a teller, but, for want of an understanding ear." ~Stephen King

Chrysaetos
03-12-2010, 08:50 PM
Have you ever been in an intensive care unit? They give you hamburgers and pepsi. In the ICU!!!! This alone should be enough to pique your suspicions, and get you wondering about the truth.Maybe that's just your country's mistake. Is it a reason to ignore ''allopathic'' medicine?

What matters is the science. I won't be convinced with conspiracy, and anecdotal evidence. Science is always willing to change its course if evidence points elsewhere. It keeps getting new information constantly, it is build on trial and error. Homeopathy is a placebo that may work for small issues. Same goes for crystal healing, and applied kinesiology.

It's just popular these days to be anti-science, anti-west. Everything alternative is immediately ''ancient'' and feel-goody. I think it's just naive. Sorry peeps.
Also, bear in mind that you're only repeating the popular view. And you are just repeating the alternative view?

Scibat
03-12-2010, 08:53 PM
Why don't you do some research into homeopathy? Go and see what they put in it etc.
I have, and seen the success rates. And know that the AMA, FDA and big pharm companies DO have an agenda that agenda is to keep them in power, rolling in money and crush any opposition whether its better healthwise or not. We can both provide tons of links supporting our points of view. Valus already pointed out the Gerson Therapy as a good example.

I am simply going to agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.

Valus
03-12-2010, 08:59 PM
Scibat,

Well done. :)

Valus
03-12-2010, 09:02 PM
“I see in Dr. Max Gerson
one of the most eminent geniuses in medical history.”
~ Dr. Albert Schweitzer


Chrysaetos,

The case studies are there.

I'm talking hard statistical evidence.

It's up to you to take the time to look.

I've provided the links.

The rest is up to you.

God Bless,
and you're welcome for this priceless gift.

eraser
03-12-2010, 10:54 PM
Conspiracy theorists are everywhere.

All medicine comes from nature, whatever label you want to hang on it.

This is not to say there aren't serious issues within the medical/pharmaceutical industries but Talus, you're painting with much too broad a brush, in my opinion.

Valus
04-12-2010, 12:59 AM
I understand your thinking, eraser,
but talk to me after you acquaint yourself
with the evidence I've presented.

Moon Willow
04-12-2010, 01:02 AM
No, homeopathy is recent. Who's saying that ''allopathic'' medicine are not ''natural''? They don't come from another planet. Other question: If you need surgery, do you go to the hospital or do you go to a witch doctor?

In the last few centuries we have gotten much older, thanks to science and medicine. Before that, we had thousands of years of ''natural'' remedies, and it wasn't all sunshine.
Homeopathy can function as a placebo for small issues, but it's really unhealthy to challenge your own health because of ideological beliefs.

There is a much bigger picture to this than just the medicines. Homeopathics looks at all the bodies...physcial, emotional, mental, spiritual as often one will affect the other. Where as allopathic medicine will only tend to work on getting rid of the symptons.

Many drugs and vitamins etc these days are synthetic so no they aren't natural and our bodies don't recognise them.

If I need surgery of course I go to the hospital. Allopathic medicine has it's place for sure, but I think people need to be alot better informed than they are. I often take in my natural remedies to help support the body after trauma of surgery and they work incredibly well. I keep an open mind, look at all the options and work with the medical profession to do what's best in each situation.

And no - my mother inlaw is not a 'witch doctor'. She is a highly qualified and trained medicinal herbalist that has helped me way more than the hospital system ever did.


Homeopathy can function as a placebo for small issues, but it's really unhealthy to challenge your own health because of ideological beliefs.

*Deep breath* Why would I use something that makes me sicker than I already am? If homeopathic heals me then that's what I'll use. My health is wonderful thanks.

Rather than just looking at one side, perhaps keep and open mind and get the best from both worlds.

Love, light and blessings,
A happy, healthy Moony:hug:

Racer X
04-12-2010, 02:03 AM
I did not know ....at first.

So I trusted the modern allopathic so called science....

They gave me drugs which ironically caused me to nearly bleed to death.

I changed my mind after that......

Perhaps it is good for people to be "shocked" awake!

I learned twice as much that way.

underlight
04-12-2010, 02:34 AM
I had a homeopath cure me of psoriasis over much of my body. A supposedly incurable disease. My uncle has had it his whole life and tried everything to cure it. Skin specialists give you steroid cream and tell you thats all you can do (yuck!) It took 6 months and wasn't easy but I havent had any issues since.

My homeopath used to be a GP but had his practising licence revoked because of papers he published in support of homeopathy.

Moon Willow you may have heard of him. Im from New Zealand too. His name is Matt Tizard, his practice is on the North Shore in Auckland.

If Im unwell now I will go see him before I go to my GP.

Moon Willow
04-12-2010, 04:20 AM
Hey Underlight....um yes I think I've heard of him but that's about all.

Awesome that he could help you with your psoriasis - it's horrible stuff. I got rid of most of mine just with organic foods and switching to plant-based cleaners, soaps, washing powder etc. I only figured that out by accident....i just switched products as it's much more environmentally friendly and I use to get concerned about all the chemicals getting into our earth and our bodies....and voila, skins as good as new! :D

NZ's such a small place I'll probably see you around some time...:D

Have a fabulous weekend.
Moony:hug:

Chrysaetos
04-12-2010, 08:30 AM
Statistics on random internet sites don't really prove things, and there are always pseudo-scientists that got titles. What matters is real scientific evidence, tested again and again. Not anecdotal evidence.There is a much bigger picture to this than just the medicines. Homeopathics looks at all the bodies...physcial, emotional, mental, spiritual as often one will affect the other. Where as allopathic medicine will only tend to work on getting rid of the symptons.Ah, and what are these ''bodies''? Cultures and religions can't even agree, and it can't be scientifically proved. It's all a wild guess..
Many drugs and vitamins etc these days are synthetic so no they aren't natural and our bodies don't recognise them.Even that is natural.

Moon Willow
04-12-2010, 09:06 AM
There is no point in me replying to your questions any more....

I'm off to play with the faeries (and yes I believe in them even though there isn't scientific evidence).
Moon Willow :hug:

norseman
04-12-2010, 12:02 PM
Several points I would like to make :-

Homeopathy works on the principle that like cures like. ALL vaccines work on the principle that like cures like.
In London, there is a major hospital within the N.H.S. that is based on homeopathic principles - The Royal London Homeopathic Hospital. - staffed by qualified doctors who also qualified in homeopathy.

During my long career as an Industrial Chemist, I include about 9 years in the Pharmaceutical Industry as a Q.C. Officer. Every drug on the market has side-effects, some of them lethal. Risks are balanced against benefits. Many of the drugs prescribed these days are to deal the side-effects of other drugs.
Of course drugs go through rigorous testing but safety is of equal importance as efficiency.
Many modern drugs are synthetic forms of herbal medicines, and that is the area where the pharmaceutical industry is looking for new drugs.

Finally, homeopathy is part of COMPLEMENTARY medicine i.e. homeopathic and allopathic forms can work together.

Uma
04-12-2010, 01:24 PM
Hi Valus,

Thanks for starting this thread and all your great references. I especially love this one:

"The cure for cancer will not be found under a microscope. It's on the dinner plate." ~ Dr. Paul Stitt

In Ontario, Canada people have been fighting a new law (Bill C51 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thepetitionsite.co m%2F1%2FStopC51%2F)) to prevent people from growing herbs in their own backyard - so the pharmaceuticals can take over the alternative herbal market. What does this remind me of? The witch hunt!

I think there are saints and sinners on both sides of the equation. As long as people are making money from sickness, there will always be corruption and resistance to spreading the news about cures.

Silver
04-12-2010, 01:34 PM
An example of allopathic medicine that was wildly popular in the Middle Ages was bloodletting. One famous example relates the experience of George Washington, who was bled of half the blood in his body by allopathic physicians seeking to cure his strep throat. When this didn't work, they gave him a 650mg pill of Mercury to swallow. He died the next day.



After having this presented as an example of an allopathic procedure, that one positions themselves on 'their side,' is highly laughable. {Oh yeah, I wanna get that treatment. Can't wait.} It sure helped GW. It amazes me that some people can swim against the stream of complete and utter common sense and somehow make it appear as though they are the pragmatic and reasonable ones.

{p.s. Norseman, I hear ya.}

Chrysaetos
04-12-2010, 01:36 PM
After having this presented as an example of an allopathic procedure, that one positions themselves on 'their side,' is highly laughable. {Oh yeah, I wanna get that treatment. Can't wait.} It sure helped GW. It amazes me that some people can swim against the stream of complete and utter common sense and somehow make it appear as though they are the pragmatic and reasonable ones.The good thing is, science constantly looks for new and better treatments. It's silly to ignore ''allopathy'' because of rotten apples from the past.

Gem
04-12-2010, 02:15 PM
I'm sure if one has a serious condition the hospital will fix them up ok, and if someone has a small complaint some homopathy would be comforting.

Naturally any doctor would recommend a healthy diet and exersize.

Lostgirl
04-12-2010, 02:18 PM
I work in intensive care.....we dont give out patients burgers.....the generally cant eat......

Gem
04-12-2010, 02:32 PM
I work in intensive care.....we dont give out patients burgers.....the generally cant eat......

Sure, and perhaps when they die a good shot of adreneline perks them up pretty well. Imagine taking such a patient to a homopathologist! He'd be a gonner fer sure.

Lostgirl
04-12-2010, 02:35 PM
And also after the trauma of being in ICU they kinda deserve a burger......or a curry...or a chinese....or some other form of unhealthy food!

norseman
04-12-2010, 03:22 PM
". It's silly to ignore ''allopathy'' because of rotten apples from the past. "

What makes you think it's in the past ?
The list starts here : - Thalidomide, Amphetamines, Cyclamates, Valium, etc, etc.

Half the problem is that doctors have to rely on pharmaceutical reps to "advise" them on new drugs and, surprise, surprise, the downside tends to be marginalised.

LightFilledHeart
04-12-2010, 03:40 PM
“I see in Dr. Max Gerson
one of the most eminent geniuses in medical history.”
~ Dr. Albert Schweitzer


Chrysaetos,

The case studies are there.

I'm talking hard statistical evidence.

It's up to you to take the time to look.

I've provided the links.

The rest is up to you.

God Bless,
and you're welcome for this priceless gift.

Valus, well said! These points have been accurately made in the documented research in regards to veterinary medicine verses the holistic approach. Great harm is done to companion animals with the allopathic veterinary approach :icon_frown:

Uma
04-12-2010, 05:42 PM
Allopathy is great for emergency care. But what about prevention? What about quality of life as opposed to just keeping a person alive? This is where IMHO medicine could be more integrative, not just tolerant, of other "first, do no harm" practices.

Perspective
04-12-2010, 06:31 PM
Allopathy is great for emergency care. But what about prevention? What about quality of life as opposed to just keeping a person alive? This is where IMHO medicine could be more integrative, not just tolerant, of other "first, do no harm" practices. Uma, that's the way I see it.
Some continue unhealthy habits for years until pain becomes too severe to ignore & then they go to the Dr. If we educate ourselves & care accordingly all along, there would likely be less problems.

Until I had some bad experiences with Drs, I relied on them, instead of doing my own research.
Although I know there are excellent Drs out there (some in our family),
I feel very strongly that we have a responsibility to learn & care about the most important tangible lifetime gift we have - our bodies.

On a lighter note, (Laughter's good medicine!)...
Tim Hawkins - Products
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MdVx6UYpHg (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D8MdVx6UYpHg)

Brian Regan - Dr. Visit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUU9CqrtFiU (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525252525252Fvb%2525252 525252Fredir.php%2525252525253Flink%2525252525253D http%252525252525253A%252525252525252F%25252525252 5252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%252525252525252Fvb%25 2525252525252Fredir.php%252525252525253Flink%25252 5252525253Dhttp%25252525252525253A%252525252525252 52F%25252525252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525 2525252525252Fvb%25252525252525252Fredir.php%25252 525252525253Flink%25252525252525253Dhttp%252525252 5252525253A%2525252525252525252F%25252525252525252 52Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525252525252525252Fvb% 2525252525252525252Fredir.php%2525252525252525253F link%2525252525252525253Dhttp%25252525252525252525 3A%252525252525252525252F%252525252525252525252Fww w.youtube.com%252525252525252525252Fwatch%25252525 2525252525253Fv%252525252525252525253DWUU9CqrtFiU)

Valus
04-12-2010, 11:09 PM
Most doctors have no idea what a healthy diet is. And they don't begin to suspect how fundamental what you eat is to how healthy you are. Being healthy is not "good fortune". Being healthy is a way of life. It's a lifestyle, but people don't want to hear that, so a medical industry evolves (and gains ascendancy) which tells them, "It happens to some people. Just take this pill." Or, "It happens. Just surgically remove that tumor."

Parents feed their kids sodas and foods far removed from their natural state, full of preservatives and toxic chemicals, -- then, when the kids react, they take them to a doctor who says the kids have "ADD" or "ADHD", and they give the kids amphetamines (Ridalin, Aderral, etc.)!!! Now the kids have a speed addiction, and are still being fed junk. When they try to come off these "medications", they suffer horrible withdrawals and fluctuations in brain chemistry. They go to the doctor who tells them, "Why did you stop taking the drugs?! That's your problem." And they get back on the drugs. All symptoms are attributed to the disease, when the real culprits are the junk food and the drugs. The corporate thugs behind these policies are laughing all the way to the bank.

Yes, genetics can predispose us to be more vulnerable to certain afflictions, but, if you're living in harmony w/ nature, those tendencies will never manifest as illness. The most important medical advance/invention in the past hundred (maybe thousand) years is the JUICER. How many hospitals have juicers in them?

People who mainstream doctors send home to die are being cured every day by alternative healers. Stop putting toxins into your body! Start putting juice infusions of vitamins and minerals in! Use colon hydrotherapy, enemas, and/or colonics to rid your body of accumulated toxins during a detox. Expect to feel crumby during a detox, and push through to the other side. Thousands have changed their lives.

The truth is out there for anyone with an open mind and the passion to learn.

If you don't want to change your life, fine.
But learn the life-saving truth, and stop spreading deadly lies.


Learn More: http://www.hippocratesinst.org/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.hippocratesinst.org%2525252525252F%252525252 5253Fgclid%2525252525253DCPG4moTh06UCFcTb4Aod6l0Sj w)

Dying To Have Known (80 min.) WATCH NOW!!!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7357629140536485998# (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvid eoplay%3Fdocid%3D-7357629140536485998%23)

Charlotte Gerson lecture "The Gerson Therapy":
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8384134159042346609# (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fvideo.google.com%252525 2Fvideoplay%2525253Fdocid%2525253D-8384134159042346609%25252523)

See Also:
HEALING CANCER From Inside Out, The Beautiful Truth,
The Gerson Miracle, Food Inc., and The Future Of Food

For information on psychemeds and how to ween off: http://breggin.com/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fbreggin.com%2525252525252F)

pre-dawn
05-12-2010, 01:50 AM
Allopathy is great for emergency care. But what about prevention? What about quality of life as opposed to just keeping a person alive? This is where IMHO medicine could be more integrative, not just tolerant, of other "first, do no harm" practices.
If one goes to an 'energy medicine' doctor and thinks that this does not, or should not, include a review of one's lifestyle, with or without the doctor's help, then one has lost the plot even before seeing him.

Ciqala
05-12-2010, 03:28 AM
I side with natural medicine as well, i may be a little suspicious and paranoid :D but i am sure those pill pushers put horrible ingredients like rat poison and deadly chemicals into medicines, and their goal is to make us sicker and insane... so they can brainwash and control the entire population and get away with doing their conspiracies. People think i'm delusional at times. But i personally react horribly to cough medicine. But then again, i also saw dancing skeletons when i smoked natural marijuana and had horrible experiences with that. I'm just too sensitive to things.

Chrysaetos
05-12-2010, 09:44 AM
Most doctors have no idea what a healthy diet is. Ridiculous.

I see conspiracy rhetoric, like making universal conclusions based on bad examples, ''they'' don't take care of poor us enough etc. It's true, you are more or less responsible for your own health. One can lead you to water, but can't make you drink. Doctors don't have infinite knowledge.

and their goal is to make us sicker and insane... so they can brainwash and control the entire population and get away with doing their conspiracies.Sure, and at the same time humans have gotten older. Thanks to science and medicine, not magical thinking.

Gem
05-12-2010, 11:37 AM
The homopathy is ok for slight illness or mental anxiety, but when the situation is life threatening it's a medical professional who saves your life.

I work the streets at night and in fights people get stabbed, glasses smashed in their face, broken jaws, noses and eye sockets, head injuries... They overdose vomit, soil themselves and spit blood... and homopathologists aren't there, don't make me laugh, it's the paramedics who clean it all up and skilled surgeons who put them back together, pump their stomachs, and do has to be done, get splattered by spit and blood and excrement, so next time you lean back on your meditation cushions, drink rosehip tea and place scented oils in those little burners while blissing out whale song music, just remember there's blokes like me who see life in all its blood and mud and guts and glory, and I can tell you.... the medics save the day every night!

Emmalevine
05-12-2010, 12:51 PM
Well said Gem.

Homeopathy has its place but we shouldn't forget the wonderful and amazing advances in medical science. I think we need a balance. I'm trained in alternative therapies and I'm inclined to treat myself holistically, but there are times we need pills and we need hospital treatment. There are some amazing stories of people curing themselves of cancer by homepathy and the like, but these are few and far between. Science has come as far as it has for good reason - it saves lives.

Valus
05-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Gem,

I'm not talking about emergency wounds.

I'm talking about treating disease.

Allopaths send you home to die,
whereas the healers I have in mind
routinely cure "incurables".

The evidence has been presented.

Silver
05-12-2010, 03:37 PM
Ridiculous.

I see conspiracy rhetoric, like making universal conclusions based on bad examples, ''they'' don't take care of poor us enough etc. It's true, you are more or less responsible for your own health. One can lead you to water, but can't make you drink. Doctors don't have infinite knowledge.



From my own personal experiences, esp since the advent of HMO's, they WOULD have you believe their knowledge is not only infinite, but superior to anyone else's. I could write volumes about all the negligence I've experienced. I'm surely glad it doesn't happen to everyone, but it does happen to some. Hence, the congressional hearings a couple of decades ago or so, about gp's difficulty with their HMO's.

Silver
05-12-2010, 03:46 PM
Gem,

I'm not talking about emergency wounds.

I'm talking about treating disease.

Allopaths send you home to die,
whereas the healers I have in mind
routinely cure "incurables".

The evidence has been presented.

So, Everybody~What's wrong with appreciation for both?
Why is there even a tussle over it?
Because allo's want to be the top dog, the ONLY dog.
There IS a time and a place for everything.

Valus
05-12-2010, 05:09 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Green-Medicine-Challenging-Assumptions-Conventional/dp/1556439024/ref=tag_dpp_lp_edpp_ttl_in

Erato
06-12-2010, 02:21 PM
First off, kudos to Valus on starting this discussion!

I don't think there is a conspiracy. Unless you call ignorance a conspiracy. From what I've read, M.D.s get very little education on nutrition in their studies. I told my doctor I preferred raw milk and she had no idea what that was!!! My doctor. The lady with the M.D. who's supposed to advise me on diet. Supposed to know about preventative medicine and all. We just need to get rid of the notion that our doctors know what's best for us. Sometimes they have NO clue. But what do you do when it's a matter of life and death?

And don't even get me started on psych meds.
Read this blog and weep. http://borderlinefamilies.com/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fbor derlinefamilies.com%252F)
There are so many examples out there of where modern medicine is failing us and what we can do to change it. People need to know what's going on. People need to educate themselves and question their doctors.

pre-dawn
06-12-2010, 03:18 PM
There are so many examples out there of where modern medicine is failing us and what we can do to change it. People need to know what's going on. People need to educate themselves and question their doctors.
Most of all people need to question themselves. We know what is going on but we don't care until it is almost too late and the we want a quick fix so that we can go on just as before.
That the system supports this and doctors have little choice but to get roped in, that is the tragedy.

Erato
06-12-2010, 03:30 PM
Agreed, pre-dawn.
We need to do both.
Without education all is lost though. We are walled in from all sides. At home, at work, in our cars.
How do you tell people that they need to wake up from this daze and start living sustainably, make smart food choices and practice preventative medicine? Even if nutrition was instituted as a mandatory subject in school now, how many generations will forgo that knowledge? And how many parents will care and oblige when their children learn in school that eating fresh tomatoes is healthier than eating ketchup?

Silver
06-12-2010, 03:34 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Green-Medicine-Challenging-Assumptions-Conventional/dp/1556439024/ref=tag_dpp_lp_edpp_ttl_in (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FGreen -Medicine-Challenging-Assumptions-Conventional%2Fdp%2F1556439024%2Fref%3Dtag_dpp_lp_ edpp_ttl_in)


I ordered that book yesterday from alibris.com fyi~

Summerland
06-12-2010, 04:15 PM
Valus, I try natural remedies long before I resort to a doctor. I pay attention to the natural ways that Nature provided for us. I am in the medical field and know the ramifications of modern day medicine. I know that the trials are very often biased,fudged and don't take into account the long range variables. Many modern medications come with very dangerous health considerations;diabetes, suicidal ideations, depression, kidney failure, lowered immune response, cardiac risks, deterioratian of muscles; esp the statins. Doctors will put patients on coumadin and not even have them wear a medallion to warn a rescue squad of potential bleeding out. ANYONE on coumadin should be warned of bleeding out and ARE NOT! Big pharma wants their research money and the the 7 year of being able to OWN the medicine before it can be put on the generic list.
And I certainly see why you are concerned about a hospital diet! It is starchy and high in carbs. Salads are smalll little bowls. They push the artificial sweeteners, which are actually toxic. If people were aware of what ingredients are in artificial sweeteners, they would never be purchased.
So I value you sharing all this information and advise anyone on any type of medicine, whether herbal or Western, research all the side effects with a microscope; also always ask the pharmacist to check for drug interactions.

Valus
06-12-2010, 06:53 PM
Erato,

Thank you, and well said. You're right -- most doctors are not involved in any conspiracy. They're just way too trusting and they don't bother to do independent research. I've heard they get about two hours of training in nutrition, when that ought to be the main focus of their discipline. "Food is medicine!" Hippocrates said that. You know,"The Father of Medicine".

As for conspiracies... people are really naive if they think the notion of a conspiracy is far-fetched. Money is the oldest motive in the book, and there's nothing new or unbelievable about rich people disregarding ethics in order to stay rich, or get richer. The people who make the real choices in society are the ones with a boat load of money. And guess what? Anybody with a boat load of money, in a world where people are starving to death, already has some pretty shady ethics. 'Nuff said.


Silvergirl,

Well done. :)
Another great book is The Sunfood Diet Success System,
if you can overlook the bad poetry and "bliss bunny" philosophy.


Summerland.

Very good points.
I think it helps a lot of people
to hear it from an insider like yourself.

harley's mum
06-12-2010, 08:16 PM
HELLO ALL...

To Valus bravo love a big juicy topic and the George Washington example...

To Erato also bravo and yes...

I would like to jump in on this thread and if you would all please indulge me... :cool: ... and sorry in advance this will be big it is a big topic and a pet peeve of mine SO ... to start with a few years back the AMA actually published the following: in the USA the number one leading cause of death was death by medical intervention..!

some of you may know my situation and some of you may not...
my bff made a very succint comment recently regarding my dearest darling "he was broken when you got him" ... my darling departed from me on June 24 and part of the story is this, he was born with a faulty valve and they call it "barrets oesophegus" well the treatment was a pill daily "nexium" add to that a life of motorbikes and horses and the doctors at the tweed heads hospital would shake their heads "not you again" led him to have consumed a fairly large quantity of pain killers... SO... after my darling departed I found a web site "emeds" full of very interesting info and they put out a bulletin... well a recent bulletin included the following...
death by liver failure due to long term use of paracetamol and went into huge detail about it and the dangers to children etc.. and at the bottom of the bulletin had further topics and clicked on the long term use of nexium and wow nexium long term use strips the body of calcium and when I mentioned this fact to bff she replied well no wonder his teeth fell out...

NO DOCTOR EVER MENTIONED ANY OF THAT??

and like another post don't get me started on "mind meds" one day in the middle of a very bad "episode" I phoned a surgery that my son had been to and said urgent assistance required episode etc WELL when we got into the doctors room my darling when asked what is wrong as is the wont of the irish used the "f" word WELL the doctor jumped up agressively launched into a tirade that he was going to call the police and was not there to listen to language...shaking my head and that is only one tiny tiny example and like other posts my darling and I have both "fallen through the cracks" re medical treatment ... BUT... there is a happy ending to this post... recently on my rock we got a new doctor a lovely lovely sri lankan buddhist who actually listens to you and actually cares and actually tries so I will end on that and thank you to all for indulging me and allowing me to vent and share...:hug3:

OH AND BTW re the allopath and homeopath thing... my son when he was young was not well and mother's intuition etc took him to many doctors who kept telling me its a bug its this that and the other and still he got worse and tried all sorts of "health" type things...WELL... one night I phoned my osteopath who is also a yogi and screamed "his life force is about to float out the window" ... well garth got from north bondi to my place in surry hills like something from doctor who beam me up etc.. rushed in the door scooped up my son said grab your keys and we flew to the childrens hospital in randwick where garth started barking orders at the medical staff and said to one nurse "you get rid of the mother" WELL they had to do emergency life saving surgery... funny part of the story and use the word funny sarcastically is that I had recently in fact taken my son to the childrens hospital to see if they could help and the head of the hospital took me into her room and said that as I was a single mother and as I ran a hotel that it was a psychiatric condition and not a medical condition.... please all pick yourselves up off the floor this really shaking my head really happened...!!

Valus
06-12-2010, 10:10 PM
Your story touches my heart, "mum",
and I'm sorry to say I've heard many like it.

The most frustrating thing for me is that,
even when you tell people about all of this,
and present a wealth of evidence for it,
most of them still look at you like you're crazy.

I think human beings have such a deep need
to feel that somebody somewhere is an authority
and is taking care of everything for them.

The truth is a bit harder to digest.

Thank you for sharing your story.
Let's hope the people on the fence are listening,
and won't have to go through this themselves
before they start to question the system.

God Bless,
V.

Gem
06-12-2010, 10:59 PM
Gem,

I'm not talking about emergency wounds.

I'm talking about treating disease.

Allopaths send you home to die,
whereas the healers I have in mind
routinely cure "incurables".

The evidence has been presented.

I'm sure medics routinely cure disease and people die despite allopathy, and there's a grey area... Malaria is a serious disease and you'd seek medical treatment, the medicine is a chinese herbal extract in pill form... cancer is cured medically in many many cases and many things are, and when push comes to shove it has to admitted, when it comes to curing serious ailments medicine leads the way.

If one seeks to find flaws they will find many, and since allopathy is largely unregulated there is alot of malpractice and many people die regardless of that approach.

Is best to understand, never have aversions to these things, become paranoid, because either might be most effective depending on the circumstances, and nothing is ideal.

Valus
07-12-2010, 01:07 AM
I don't think anyone's arguing that there's an ideal.

Bottom line -- The Gerson Clinic, and places like it,
are completely curing the worst cancers, without surgery,
and without chemotherapy; doing things that
make mainstream doctors drop their jaws.

Until one familiarizes oneself with at least SOME
of the evidence I've presented on this thread,
there really is no ground for further discussion.

Peace

Silver
07-12-2010, 02:23 AM
I don't think anyone's arguing that there's an ideal.

Bottom line -- The Gerson Clinic, and places like it,
are completely curing the worst cancers, without surgery,
and without chemotherapy; doing things that
make mainstream doctors drop their jaws.

Until one familiarizes oneself with at least SOME
of the evidence I've presented on this thread,
there really is no ground for further discussion.

Peace

There are so many stories out there, a woman at work was treated in the traditional way for cancer, but due to that very treatment, she messed up her achilles tendon and/or broke bone in that area because it brittles the tendons etc.

Uh, but you shouldn't say there's no more grounds for discussion, otherwise, what's a forum to do?
:wink:

Valus
07-12-2010, 03:20 PM
Silvergirl,

I apologize to you and others if I've oversimplified the matter somewhat in order to streamline my point. No wonder that now attention is being given to providing those details, the importance of which I ought not to have underestimated. Certainly, there are careless practitioners in every field. As Erato put it, education is the answer. We need to always be learning. What I've discovered, as far as Cancer treatment goes, is that mainstream (I do not say "traditional", since this trend is relatively new) medicine routinely makes the problem worse than it would be without any treatment at all. Some have compared chemotherapy to having hot gravel raked through their veins, and the reality of what is actually happening during chemo is not far from this. I do not say that all alternative treatments are better, but that certain treatments, by well-educated and well-trained professionals, are profoundly better than what the mainstream offers. I've indicated the healers I'm referring to. Charlotte Gerson is one of them. If people wish to counter my position, they need to do it with respect to people like Charlotte Gerson, and not with respect to alternative therapies which I do not support, and never intended to appear to support. Again, I apologize, as the misunderstanding is my own fault.

Anyone who wants to know the truth, and/or who is honestly considering making positive changes in their diet (that is, in their life), should read the following paragraphs. But first, there's lots of places on the web for good information.

Here's one: http://www.therawfoodworld.com/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.therawfoodworld.com%2525252525252F)

To begin:

I landed myself in the intensive care unit, and in a coma, the summer before last. This provoked me to adopt an all raw diet, and during the time when I was faithful to it, I never felt more energized or positive in my entire life. Here's some of what I learned.

One of the pieces of advice you'll most commonly find is to start slow, eliminating just a few things at a time, and at a pace you are comfortable with. For a couple of years, before I began juicing, I had already given up beef, pork, and lamb (anything on four legs), and shortly before going raw I had stopped eating chicken. For a while, during my recovery, I gave up all processed and cooked foods, and returned to the sort of diet our prehistoric ancestors would have recognized -- the sort of diet upon which our own physiology evolved, and which we are apparently designed to survive, and thrive, on. Giving up meat was a decision motivated by ethical concerns, foremost being the suffering of animals, but also environmental considerations (as I'd discovered that the leading contributor to environmental instability is the consumption of meat; specifically, factory farmed meat -- I'd learned that factory farms dump more waste into the air and ocean than any other industry, that it takes as much water to produce a pound of meat as one uses in a year of showering, and, also, that the land and materials used for growing grain, which could feed the world's hungry, were alloted to feeding animals for human consumption). We've grown up thinking of our distant ancestors as hunters, or hunter-gatherers, but the evidence I've studied suggests they were gatherers first, and only hunted rarely, usually to supplement the diet during long droughts and frosts when plants were less available.

I've learned that a lot of what we've been told are lies, often intentionally spread for the purpose of making money. For one thing, meat is not necessary for protein. All of the building blocks for proteins can be found in plants. I also learned that cooking food deprives it, and us, of the majority of it's nutrients. If the food is not organic to begin with, it has already suffered a significant depletion of its nutrient content, so this is an even bigger consideration now that foods are being produced with heavy traces of man-made chemicals, proven to be toxic to the human constitution. All in the name of making a small number of people obscenely wealthy, while making the rest of us fat and sick.

The reality of health, I've learned, is far from what I once thought. The reality is that almost all of us are sick. Sickness is so common, we have come to view it as our normal state -- as health! We think of some people as lazy, dull-witted, or irritable people, but the fact is that what they are eating has made them sick, and these are just a few of the symptoms of toxicity in the body. We look at people vibrant and vibrating with health, and we think it's just the luck of the draw; we think we weren't made that way. The truth is, we have no idea of who we are; that is, who we are when we are healthy, and not overloaded with toxins. Our potential is waiting to be unlocked.

The first step, as all true healers will tell you, is to cleanse the colon. The colon is the key. This is where toxins go to be released from the body, and when the colon is impacted (as most modern colons are), elimination of toxins is greatly inhibited. Our organs, primarily the liver, work to expel toxins from the blood, but all that work is in vain when the colon is clogged; toxins just end up being "recycled" back into the blood. Serious practitioners recommend as many as 30 sessions! of colon hydrotherapy in the initial stages of healing. This can get expensive, but the comparison is often made to what we spend fixing our cars. If we are willing to spend large sums fixing our cars, why are we so reluctant to spend them to fix our bodies -- ourselves? At the very least, enemas and/or a home colon cleansing program is recommended. Two sites to look at are:

http://www.drnatura.com/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.drnatura.com%2525252525252F)
and
https://www.herbdoc.com/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttps%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%25252525252 52Fwww.herbdoc.com%2525252525252F)

Simply doing a program like this, before making any significant dietary changes, can rid the body of a lot of accumulated toxic matter and free up a lot of energy for other biological processes. The only thing they recommend at this point is an avoidance of salty and fried foods. The reason you don't want to begin infusing the body with fresh juices right away is because giving the body what it needs (after having been deprived for so long) will trigger a massive release of toxins, and if the colon isn't clean these will be unable to escape from the body, and a healing crisis will almost definitely occur. After cleansing the colon, and possibly doing some of the other cleanses (you'll see on herbdoc a number of cleanses, including liver, kidney, and gallbladder) you can begin drinking serious juices. At least 20 ounces of green juice a day is recommended. Anything green, but especially dark green leafy veggies, is essential to health. Never underestimate these juices, as they are among the most powerful medicines known to "man". You'll feel the difference immediately. Of course, you'll want to mix these with apple and carrot juices, because they can be very bitter on their own. But try not to overdue the sweet veggies and fruits. They provide "good sugars", and can give boosts of energy (some juice enthusiasts recommend a glass or two of fresh orange or grapefruit juice in the morning, to start the day -- works better than coffee, which is a very powerful and destructive drug; much more so than marijuana, for instance), but you don't want to overdo these.

What you take in is important, but even more important is what you leave out. Refined sugars, white flour, meat, etc. should be seen as positively toxic substances. Meat, especially, is very acidic. You've probably heard of the findings concerning alkaline and acidic foods. The body, in order to be healthy, needs to be slightly alkaline, but the modern diet makes the body extremely acidic. Incidentally, fruits like lemons and oranges, which we tend to think of as acidic, actually have an alkalizing effect on the body. Nuts and seeds are wonderful, especially when raw. The real key here is RAW. All that information on the back of packages about serving size, calories, etc. means nothing. The further removed a food is from its natural state, the more toxic it is. This is not an absolute rule, of course, but a general rule which may be relied upon in most cases.

Olive oil is wonderful, and should be used whenever possible in place of Canola or Vegetable oil. Bear in mind that cooking changes the chemical composition; heating oils actually begins turning them into plastics and metals! But olive oil is relatively safe. Oils, and especially the oils found in nuts and seeds, lubricate the cells and provide a very mothering kind of energy. Butter should be avoided, unless it is raw. Raw dairy is a beautiful thing, but is only legal to sell directly from the farm. If you can find a local farm willing to sell raw dairy -- great! Small farms usually treat their animals very well, for one thing. The sort of dairy products you find in stores have been cooked at high temperatures and had their structures changed. They are some of the most acid-producing substances. People find this hard to believe, since drinking milk can often calm a sore stomach, which we've been taught to think of as an acid stomach. People take "antacids", for instance. But the truth is that soreness in the tummy is caused by a lack of acids, needed for proper digestion, and so-called antacids stimulate the body to produce acids in the stomach. While this is one good form of acidity, it is not optimal and the long-term effects are harmful. The best cure for an upset stomach is mint, or about fifteen mintdrops dissolved in water.

Bottom line: begin thinking of foods as either medicines or poisons, because that's what they are. Garlic, ginger, cayenne pepper -- these are some of the most powerful medicines in your arsenal. Also, you want to expect to feel crumby during a detox. When you begin to change your diet in this radical way, your body starts to shed the wastes which it has been using as a substitute for real nutrition. You may break out in acne, you may feel very letharic, you may get headaches, etc. The mainstream doctors will see these things as signs that what you're doing is not working. Many people are advised by their doctors to stop the cleanse at this point, which they do. That's a shame, because true health is just on the other side of those reactions. It has to get worse before it can get better.

The problem with most mainstream medicine is that it's aim is to eliminate symptoms, and not the sources of disease. When you get a cold, for instance, the body is purging itself of toxins. It's a good thing! The last thing you want to do is suppress these attempts to rid the body of toxins, but that's exactly what our doctors do. They make your symptoms disappear, and you think you are well. Meanwhile, toxins are being sequestered in your organs. Tumors form because of deposits of toxins. The body, unable to rid itself of the disease, finds a place for it in the organs, where it continues to accumulate. Doctors who "treat" Cancer think there's a problem with the liver, or the lungs, or the brain -- wherever the tumor or tumors are localized, -- but really the problem is with the whole body. They surgically remove the tumor, or break it up with radiation, and then it just comes back.

I hope this information is helpful for you. Good luck, and remember not to be hard on yourself. Start slow. The sources of disease are on your dinner plate, but the sources of destructive behavior are rooted in psychological issues common to all of us. Being harsh with yourself will only backfire. So be patient, be gentle, and always keep in mind the person you are on your way to becoming. People who make the transition to a truly healthy diet become happier, more energetic, more eager to take on projects, and more attractive. It is not uncommon for these people to have a youthful glow to their skin and a twinkle in their eyes. This is the natural state; as God, or Nature, intended us to be.

Good luck and God bless,
Valus

7luminaries
15-12-2010, 06:35 PM
Valus, there's a lot of truth here....all except the bit on coffee being more dangerous than marijuana...LOL...this is obviously not true for everyone ;) but of course for those who react strongly to caffeine, this may be so...

but yes...tea is better than coffee :D...although either fair trade are pref to marijuana for me...as I react strongly to the chemical. Being around the smoke even 2ndhand interferes with meditative states. And I also think of the tragic loss of Bob Marley...who died of lung cancer due to heavy marijuana use...

generally though great thread...lots of good info...
Cheers :smile:
7L

7he4uthor
16-12-2010, 04:23 AM
Valus, its an interesting post.
I wonder how accurate it is with so much false information on the internet.

I had an experience when I first tried naturopathic medicine.
My partner and I both suffered from what we believed to be intestinal parasites.

We went to a naturopath, he held something in his hnds and hummed whirling the object (i forget) in the air then pointed at my partner and said to take black walnut, then pointed at me and said to take a different herb (forgot)

We both took the prescribed plants ... she got better I didnt.
The thing is I DO see quackery here, we had beoth been infected with the same thing.

OK so mybe he WAS a quack you say, WELL ... I decided later to give this another chance, I went to another naturopath regarding another illness, this doctor had degree in both forms of medicine.

His examination room was barren.
No devices, instruments, nothing.

When it was decided I needed certain tests he said I should return to my regular doctor ... I said *But youre a doctor you can solicit the labwork.*
He replied that he thought my regulr doctor should do it.

I never went back.
I questioned him about other things to get a feel for his capacity as a practicioner.

I must say incompetent would be the best word.

Quack could also apply.


His best treatment/advise was to send me back to my regular doctor.


EDIT

I just checked the George washington Story.
Checks out.
However I might add that because he was president, inevitably with many political rivals.
He may have been deliberately murdered (via blood draining/mercury).
Its possible in my mind.

Lostgirl
16-12-2010, 09:05 AM
I think when it comes to my health i would rather go to a regular doctor and if that doesnt work then i would chose to go down a different route.

Valus
18-12-2010, 05:05 AM
7luminaries,

Yeah, that was a bit of hyperbole; I know people react differently to coffee and marijuana. I do know a number of people, though, who are much more affected by coffee. It makes them extremely anxious, impatient and irritable. It's been blamed for instances of road rage, and I believe it. Marijuana can induce strong states of paranoia or self-consciousness occasionally and in some people, but the majority of reports are of relaxation and only mild distraction. In the long term, I believe coffee is much more harmful. Long term use of pot seems to lead to a very relaxed attitude to life, which some might term laziness. Long term use of coffee seems to do just the opposite, making people overly goal-oriented and anal retentive.

Bob Marley injured his toe playing soccer and developed acral lentiginous melanoma, which could have been settled by amputation, but since amputation is against his Rastafarian beliefs, he died. He did NOT die of lung cancer from smoking (though he did smoke enormous amounts of pot). Not sure where you heard that.


Universa1ove,

For every good physician there must be at least a dozen quacks. This goes for mainstream doctors just as much as it goes for naturopaths. The difference is, when a naturopath doesn't cure you, you make a note of it and never go back. When a mainstream doctor doesn't cure you, you forget it and chalk it up to "win some, lose some". But the fact remains that there are solid clinics out there, where people whom mainstream medicine has given up on are being cured.


lostgirl,

Trust your instincts, of course. But don't ignore the data, and get a second opinion (from a competent naturopath) when your doctor tells you that surgery and/or chemotherapy is your only option. Not only are there other options, but there are far better options. Even doing nothing may be a better option. The record speaks for itself. Again, I would urge you to see some of these documentaries, especially if you ever get diagnosed with something like Cancer.

Deusdrum
20-12-2010, 12:23 PM
The pharmaceutical vs. natural medicine thing is pretty real, in my opinion. They are actively trying to pass laws in Canada which would make vitamins have the same regulation as prescription drugs, or make certain ones illegal, or something completely off the wall. Alarm bells should sort of being going off i feel in cases like this.

Valus, im not sure its fair to deny people their say just because they have not looked at the links you have provided. I understand that if you are going to argue or debate on equal terms then the material should be understood; however those links are to videos that are hours long, not everyone has time to enlighten themselves by investigating as thoroughly as you might like

(you have thrown a lot of promising looking things out here in this thread though, that i will be taking a closer look at, thank you for that, cancer guy especially ill be wikipedia-ing or googling)

The biggest problem i have with general practitioners is the mentality (both society and them) have that presumes that they unquestionably have the answers, end of story. I have had my own emergency ward episode, but harley's mum's story takes care of that point much better than mine would. I personally don't trust doctors, unless they prove themselves worthy of it. I think people should pay attention to their intuition with doctors; you have authority over your body, don't let doctors assume that they know it better than you do, and always a good idea to do your own research before consenting to anything, and getting as many opinions as possible from a variety of sources.

And finally, sometimes the best medicine for your soul, may be sickness! and even death sometimes. Sure you can maintain a healthy diet, but that won't stop you from getting hit by a bus on your way out of the gym.

As you can see, i will use any excuse i can get my hands on to eat, smoke and drink as i please, but in all seriousness your points are well taken, and i do believe that ultimately, we are responsible for our own health, at least from a mental and emotional perspective, in large part. When presented with a disease or sickness, its as much as how we face it, as what we do to 'fix' it, which, in many ways go hand in hand. People tend to overlook the Spiritual components in sickness i feel, (or not believe they exist, which is even more problematic), and as for placebo effect, the fact that just believing you are getting better actually MAKES you better to some degree, should say something about the role that you have in your own health.

OneLove ~

Dean1973
20-12-2010, 01:00 PM
I like this analogy: If you're driving in your car and the oil light comes on, you don't put your hand through the dashboard and remove the oil light (effect), you put oil in the car (treat the cause).

I feel both medicines are just ok, but I do believe that yes homeopathy does treat the cause over time, working on a more holistic (whole) level ..

On an entirely different level I like the idea (it intrigues me) that everything is placebo, that it's got absolutely nothing to do with what we take / put in our body that has any effect, it's merely our belief on some or other level that cures. Love that idea!

God-Like
20-12-2010, 01:06 PM
Hi Guy's

Someone said to me the other day that on the t.v. there was a documentary where 3 pharmaceutical bodies were fighting out the right to distribute and supply drugs for diabetes.

The monies Involved was astronomical. The drugs obviously are designed to control the symptoms and not to cure them :wink:.

Why would they want to mass produce a cure for diabetes? :rolleyes:

x daz x

Lostgirl
20-12-2010, 01:29 PM
Maybe to in the long run cost the NHS less?????

Or are you saying how much diabetes earns the NHS!? Hav i completely missed the point? More than likely yes.

BlueSky
20-12-2010, 01:35 PM
In regards to this subject, as one who understands the 2 methods described here and as one who practiced Shamanism and healing...........I have grown to see and trust whatever method is offered to me when I am in need of healing. When I say trust, I mean be open to all ideas which also can mean being open to not being open to a paticular method at the time.
The reason is that I have grown to see them all, and to see you all as an extension of what we are and I trust that healing can come in many forms from many different methods and people. It is all still me helping me.

healing = balance
Blessings,
James

God-Like
20-12-2010, 01:50 PM
Maybe to in the long run cost the NHS less?????

Or are you saying how much diabetes earns the NHS!? Hav i completely missed the point? More than likely yes.

He He Lostgirl.

There's less money to be made In finding a solution / cure.

There's more money to be made In keeping a patient dependent on drugs for the rest of their days so to speak..

x daz x

Chrysaetos
20-12-2010, 03:00 PM
The monies Involved was astronomical. The drugs obviously are designed to control the symptoms and not to cure them :wink:.
Why would they want to mass produce a cure for diabetes? :rolleyes:
I guess it's harsh but there simply aren't cures for everything.
I'm sure that those who do get cured are all part of the conspiracy..:rolleyes:

On an entirely different level I like the idea (it intrigues me) that everything is placebo, that it's got absolutely nothing to do with what we take / put in our body that has any effect, it's merely our belief on some or other level that cures. Love that idea! Yes, it's great for small ills, but not for any serious disease. If it was, all the people in the Middle Ages would have been cured through faith healing.

Silver
20-12-2010, 03:55 PM
I guess it's harsh but there simply aren't cures for everything.
I'm sure that those who do get cured are all part of the conspiracy..:rolleyes:

You'd (we'd) have to STUDY all the various diseases, starting wiht the more common ones and follow along to see / there are so many variables, BUT I can't believe you think the 'case' against big pharma is a silly conspiracy theory.
c'mon, son.


Yes, it's great for small ills, but not for any serious disease. If it was, all the people in the Middle Ages would have been cured through faith healing.

snicker~maybe they weren't yet enlightened and/or faith-filled enough.
:confused3: :wink:

BlueSky
20-12-2010, 04:11 PM
Yes, it's great for small ills, but not for any serious disease. If it was, all the people in the Middle Ages would have been cured through faith healing.

Seriously, if you look at the facts, you may find that in those times most people were killed way before they needed healing.
I really don't think this statement has any real value to the subject based on that IMO.

Valus
20-12-2010, 05:06 PM
You said it, daz.

As for the power of the mind...

It is infinite.

But you have to master the mind.

It is not enough to say you believe,
or to hold a belief in the conscious mind.
There will still be unconscious doubts.

You have to bring the unconscious
into alignment with the conscious
before you can affect miracles.

This happens very seldom.

And the ones who accomplish it
have overcome the world.

You aren't likely to find them
still roaming the physical realm.

And you certainly won't find them
curing their own diseases, because
they never get sick to begin with.

But don't take my word for it.

Spend some fifteen years, as I have,
researching the evidence of occult powers.

Chrysaetos
20-12-2010, 05:14 PM
Seriously, if you look at the facts, you may find that in those times most people were killed way before they needed healing.
I really don't think this statement has any real value to the subject based on that IMO.
Sorry WS, but I don't really understand what you're trying to say.
Killed before they needed healing?

And the ones who accomplish it have overcome the world.
In what way have they overcome the world?

You aren't likely to find them still roaming the physical realm.
Bummer.:tongue:
Spend some fifteen years, as I have, researching the evidence of occult powers.
Quantity over quality?

BlueSky
20-12-2010, 05:15 PM
You said it, daz.

As for the power of the mind...

It is infinite.

But you have to master the mind.

It is not enough to say you believe,
or to hold a belief in the conscious mind.
There will still be unconscious doubts.

You have to bring the unconscious
into alignment with the conscious
before you can affect miracles.

This happens very seldom.

And the ones who accomplish it
have overcome the world.

You aren't likely to find them
still roaming the physical realm.

And you certainly won't find them
curing their own diseases, because
they never get sick to begin with.

But don't take my word for it.

Spend some fifteen years, as I have,
researching the evidence of occult powers.

I really like this post. Not because I have any evidence or have done any research but because i have always known or sensed that there are no limits to what the mind can do when mastered. Always!
I have also found first hand that when emotions run high and compassion deep, that healing for those closest to us happens because the mind is inadvertently overcome by the deep love we have for one another.
This was the case with my daughter.
James

BlueSky
20-12-2010, 05:35 PM
Sorry WS, but I don't really understand what you're trying to say.
Killed before they needed healing?

Kepp in mind that I have not followed the entire thread and was only commenting on the statement as it stands alone, but yes, my understanding is that peole were killed way before they had a chance to get sick or needed healing.
It really was a fun fact and has nothing to do with anything.
Blessings.....James

Valus
20-12-2010, 08:37 PM
Thank you, James. It made me smile, to hear about your daughter. I think Love is the most powerful healing force in the world. Love and faith. Faith, to me, means believing in the power of God to transform and make all things new. The eyes of faith see what is not yet, and their vision, their faith, brings it to pass. I believe that.

God Bless

BlueSky
20-12-2010, 08:52 PM
Thank you, James. It made me smile, to hear about your daughter. I think Love is the most powerful healing force in the world. Love and faith. Faith, to me, means believing in the power of God to transform and make all things new. The eyes of faith see what is not yet, and their vision, their faith, brings it to pass. I believe that.

God Bless

You are real blessing to this world Valus and you have been a great positive force in my life of lately. For this I am grateful. :smile:
James

Deusdrum
20-12-2010, 09:01 PM
You said it, daz.

As for the power of the mind...

It is infinite.

But you have to master the mind.

It is not enough to say you believe,
or to hold a belief in the conscious mind.
There will still be unconscious doubts.

You have to bring the unconscious
into alignment with the conscious
before you can affect miracles.

This happens very seldom.

And the ones who accomplish it
have overcome the world.

You aren't likely to find them
still roaming the physical realm.

And you certainly won't find them
curing their own diseases, because
they never get sick to begin with.

But don't take my word for it.

Spend some fifteen years, as I have,
researching the evidence of occult powers.
I will disagree with you, in part, on this Valus. In Shamanism, for instance, often times there is an initiatory period of sickness that sometimes will kill the aspiring shaman. I believe that, regardless of our level of Spiritual awareness/development, we may still be stricken with sickness, is so required. The concept of the wounded healer. You will find them healing themselves, because they must in order to understand how to heal anyone else.

I also do not believe miracles are dependent upon perfect mastery of unconscious alignment, more serious issues may require a deeper confronting of inner conditions, but it is possible for anyone with the courage and commitment to do so, in my opinion.

Then again, sometimes miracles just happen.

In any case, when i speak of placebo effect, i am mostly concerned with mental health, versus physical health, although i believe the one effects the other. That, in my opinion, is far less difficult that people believe, hence why it seems so difficult. However, maintaining a healthy mentality takes vigilance in establishing new neural pathways etc. and getting out of the habit of using the old ones. Happier people will always tend to be healthier people, but a person in perfect physical health will not necessarily be a happy person, although i'm sure it helps also.

I wont take your word for it, and i don't have 15 years to spend researching it,
(and what do you mean by 'research?' Field study, school, specific work, what?) and even if i did, i am very likely to come up with somewhat different results. As with any research, what people find ALWAYS amounts to what they are looking for. There is no such thing as scientific objectivity. That which studies is intimately (and ultimately)connected to that which is studied. Hard to separate them at a certain level.

And when you speak of overcoming the world, it is kind of vague. Unless you have 'overcome the world' yourself, i'm not sure why i should consider you any kind of authority, over say, someone else who has spent 15 years researching similar things and come up with different results.

I am playing devils advocate here, somewhat, and as much as i agree with the general jist of what you are saying, i also believe its important to aim for clarity on some points as well.

P.E.A.C.E. ~

Scibat
20-12-2010, 09:10 PM
Here has been my first hand experience from being a frequent flyer (my little joke) at the local hospital for my diabetes and related complications.

The food there, even on diabetic/cardiac diet (which is what I get put on) consists of things like salisbury steak, mashed potatoes w/gravy, a buttered dinner roll.
I am made to eat a snack at night even when my blood sugar is running high. Usually its some kind of fruit cocktail (in syrup) or graham crackers w/ peanut butter.
The solution to my blood pressure or blood sugar being high is to give me a shot of insulin or a pill, not adjust my diet or cut out the snack in the hospital (which is controlled by the hospital dietitian.)
If they even suspect I have an infection (without any lab tests) I get put on the strongest I.V. antibiotics available. Even when the lab tests have come back negative they leave me on them to run the full course.I have been in the hospital for extended periods on average 3 times a year since 2007 and the above has been my experience every time. Occasionally a individual nurse will, on her own hook, talk to me about alternatives such as diet changes or spiritual help, but usually the above is just standard for me.

I don't know if it is big pharmaceutical companies to blame or just the American health system, but something is definitely broken with how treatment for chronic illnesses are given in this country.

Kapitan_Prien
20-12-2010, 09:15 PM
As someone who had Fibromyalgia and Sciatica and was put on anti-depressants and painkillers that did nothing but make me more depressed and as for the latter, tear up my guts (I don't think I will ever forget the one I was on that gave me diarrhea several minutes after I would eat a meal each time...:rolleyes:)

...quit those things and use homeopathy (along with essences, herbs, supplements - but I will focus on the homeopathy aspect here...as that took away my pain from the Fibromyalgia)...

...I will keep my homeopathy.

I have been declared 'Fibro Free' in 4 years (coming next year) thanks to homeopathy.

I continue to use homeopathy to help me and since it works for me - as the saying goes: "If it ain't broke - don't fix it."

People can laugh at me all they want...but remember - I'm not the one on anti depressants and painkillers anymore. :D

BlueSky
20-12-2010, 09:18 PM
As someone who had Fibromyalgia and Sciatica and was put on anti-depressants and painkillers that did nothing but make me more depressed and as for the latter, tear up my guts (I don't think I will ever forget the one I was on that gave me diarrhea several minutes after I would eat a meal each time...:rolleyes:)

...quit those things and use homeopathy (along with essences, herbs, supplements - but I will focus on the homeopathy aspect here...as that took away my pain from the Fibromyalgia)...

...I will keep my homeopathy.

I have been declared 'Fibro Free' in 4 years (coming next year) thanks to homeopathy.

I continue to use homeopathy to help me and since it works for me - as the saying goes: "If it ain't broke - don't fix it."

People can laugh at me all they want...but remember - I'm not the one on anti depressants and painkillers anymore. :D

Awesome!!!!

Valus
20-12-2010, 10:26 PM
Wow, White Shaman,

You continue to put wind in my sails. I hope I don't disappoint you too much when you discover my less sterling qualities. I'm glad you're resonating with some of the same things I am lately. I've been watching Joel Osteen's sermons on YouTube, and he's really inspiring me with his own brand of New Age Christianity (at least, that's how I'd frame it). Although I disagree with him on some things (he still retains some dogmatic and conservative notions which rub me the wrong way), I think his heart is in the right place and he's going in the right direction. In many ways, he's a far better man than I am, and I feel so blessed to have access to so many of his talks. I don't know why I'm telling you this. I guess because he's doing for me right now what you said I'm doing for you. I'm not nearly as together as some of my writing may suggest. I've struggled with depression for most of my life, and compulsive thoughts of suicide (including a very seductive kind of pull towards death) have been a daily occurrence in my life for many years. It's a strange, uncommitted way to live. But lately I've been much more hopeful, and gradually developing more confidence. I credit Joel and his "can-do" philosophy for a lot of that.


Hi Deus,

I'm sorry to say, I'm no stranger to the wounded healer concept. Chiron and I are on fairly intimate terms. It looks like nothing you've said here significantly contradicts my views, but it's not really in my interest to explain that here and now. Naturally, generalizations were made, and clarifications left unmade, for the sake of streamlining my position. That's just par for the course, as are misunderstandings. If I want to be perfectly clear, I'll write a book. Clarity's always appreciated, though. I admire your rigor and encourage you to find your own answers. I certainly don't expect, or even wish, to be taken as some kind of authority. As you said, we're essentially in agreement, and the disagreement, where it exists, is relatively superficial. Take care


Scibat,

Here has been my first hand experience from being a frequent flyer (my little joke) at the local hospital for my diabetes and related complications.
The food there, even on diabetic/cardiac diet (which is what I get put on) consists of things like salisbury steak, mashed potatoes w/gravy, a buttered dinner roll.
I am made to eat a snack at night even when my blood sugar is running high. Usually its some kind of fruit cocktail (in syrup) or graham crackers w/ peanut butter.
The solution to my blood pressure or blood sugar being high is to give me a shot of insulin or a pill, not adjust my diet or cut out the snack in the hospital (which is controlled by the hospital dietitian.)
If they even suspect I have an infection (without any lab tests) I get put on the strongest I.V. antibiotics available. Even when the lab tests have come back negative they leave me on them to run the full course.I have been in the hospital for extended periods on average 3 times a year since 2007 and the above has been my experience every time. Occasionally a individual nurse will, on her own hook, talk to me about alternatives such as diet changes or spiritual help, but usually the above is just standard for me.

I don't know if it is big pharmaceutical companies to blame or just the American health system, but something is definitely broken with how treatment for chronic illnesses are given in this country.
I hope a lot of people read this. Your experience is very telling, and testimonies like yours provide the concrete examples which, ultimately, make the most effective arguments. Thanks for sharing it.


KP,

What I just said to Scibat goes for you, too.
Congrats on being Fibro Free! :smile:

Kapitan_Prien
20-12-2010, 10:31 PM
Thanks, Valus.

I'm also thankful that my dr. is open to alternative remedies. He's not the 'pill pusher' type. So there ARE dr's out there that, while trained in allopathic medicine don't 'fit the mold'.

Valus
20-12-2010, 10:36 PM
Good point. I need to find me one of those.

Deusdrum
21-12-2010, 04:59 AM
Hi Deus,

I'm sorry to say, I'm no stranger to the wounded healer concept. Chiron and I are on fairly intimate terms. It looks like nothing you've said here significantly contradicts my views, but it's not really in my interest to explain that here and now. Naturally, generalizations were made, and clarifications left unmade, for the sake of streamlining my position. That's just par for the course, as are misunderstandings. If I want to be perfectly clear, I'll write a book. Clarity's always appreciated, though. I admire your rigor and encourage you to find your own answers. I certainly don't expect, or even wish, to be taken as some kind of authority. As you said, we're essentially in agreement, and the disagreement, where it exists, is relatively superficial. Take care

Hoighty toighty. Listen, you may not want to clarify things, but when you say "15 years of research" i myself, am interested in you qualifying, in what way?

I do not see this as superficial. I'll tip toe back out of here, and leave you to it.

Much Love & Respect. ~ *

Valus
21-12-2010, 02:14 PM
Hoighty toighty....

Much Love & Respect. ~ *


Deus,

I've spent a large chunk of my life taking people's criticisms to heart, and exhausting myself trying to explain my perspective, so as not to give offense. I tend to take fairly controversial positions much of the time, which means I tend to polarize people quite a bit; some love me, some hate me. I've found that, no matter how many explanations I make, or how much time and effort I put into making coherent arguments, and trying to use tactful, non-inflammatory language, some people are just never satisfied. After seeing my words and intentions systematically disregarded, twisted, and impugned, I eventually lose my cool and show my worst side. Then people say, "At last, your true face shows." Some people will goad and goad and goad you until, at last, you "true face" shows.

I've come to the point where I refuse most attempts to draw me into explaining myself, since this has so often led to frustration and self-doubt. While I may often project confidence, the reality is that I'm very vulnerable to other's projections. Shaking off their labels isn't always easy for me. Am I arrogant? You bet. But who isn't? Mostly, I'm just a very serious, even stiff, person, who has difficulty making light of things. I admire people, like White Shaman, who can shake off criticisms with a good-natured joke or two. I think I often come off as more arrogant or self-righteous than I am on account of my seriousness. My tone is not relaxed or light-hearted, and this can occasionally come across as arrogance. I'm definitely opinionated and frequently very confident in my convictions, but, after swimming in an ocean of chaos and confusion for most of my life, and, finally, after so much research and effort, satisfying myself on a few points, I think I've earned the right to that.

Some of what you are perceiving in my tone, I think, is defensiveness. As I said, I've been drawn into pointless debates more times than I care to remember, and I'm very susceptible to people's projections of me. So, I really have to make an effort to assert my boundaries, and sometimes I do it rather clumsily or defensively. Despite my desire not to spend so much time and energy on these things, I took some time and made a real effort to be tactful in my response to you, without compromising my fiercely honest disposition. That is one thing I know about myself -- for better and often for worse, I am honest. It was not my intention to upset you, or to be dismissive of you. I really made an effort, but I see you took my words in the worst possible way. Let me assure you, Deus, that I am far from perfect. If your aim is to find fault with me, you won't have to look far. But, I believe, that if you train yourself to look for the good, you will find that even more abundantly.

One thing that my study of Astrology has taught me is that some people just rub each other the wrong way. It's not that anything is especially disagreeable about either one of them, but that their planets, or energies, are in opposition. They come from very different perspectives and find it extremely difficult to understand each other. The result, all too often, is heated misunderstandings of meanings and intentions.

When I began posting here, you were kind to me, and I consequently wrote a private message to you, which you responded to, also very kindly. Perhaps I ought to have responded to that, rather than leave it alone, so as not to leave you with any doubt as to my attitude towards you. Perhaps you felt dismissed then, and it has something to do with your feeling dismissed now. I see you've written me a private message, expressing your concern about my "arrogance" and refusal to accept your criticism. Since you've also expressed yourself, somewhat more emotionally, here, I've decided to respond to you here. I hope that wasn't a mistake. And I hope this response will be sufficient for you, because I really hope not to be baited into making any more of this than has already been made of it.

You seem like a good man, and I will continue to assume that we simply approach things differently, and probably have some very challenging aspects between our natal charts. While challenges can be educational, I find that I have enough trouble handling the ones in my own chart, and between myself and those people closest to me. “We must live for the few who know and appreciate us, who judge and absolve us, and for whom we have the same affection and indulgence. The rest I look upon as a mere crowd, lively or sad, loyal or corrupt, from whom there is nothing to be expected but fleeting emotions, either pleasant or unpleasant, which leave no trace behind them.” (~ Sarah Bernhardt)

Please understand, if I refuse to delve into this more than I already have. I wish you the best.

Peace

Kapitan_Prien
21-12-2010, 02:53 PM
Valus: I think I often come off as more arrogant or self-righteous than I am on account of my seriousness. My tone is not relaxed or light-hearted, and this can occasionally come across as arrogance. I'm definitely opinionated and frequently very confident in my convictions, but, after swimming in an ocean of chaos and confusion for most of my life, and, finally, after so much research and effort, satisfying myself on a few points, I think I've earned the right to that.

I understand the feeling Valus...I think this very same thing happens with me.

(Don't mean to steer the thread off topic - but I just wanted to say that because it isn't easy for me to find others whom are in a similar sort of state to mine with regards to these things.)

Deusdrum
21-12-2010, 07:59 PM
Deus,

I've spent a large chunk of my life taking people's criticisms to heart, and exhausting myself trying to explain my perspective, so as not to give offense. I tend to take fairly controversial positions much of the time, which means I tend to polarize people quite a bit; some love me, some hate me. I've found that, no matter how many explanations I make, or how much time and effort I put into making coherent arguments, and trying to use tactful, non-inflammatory language, some people are just never satisfied. After seeing my words and intentions systematically disregarded, twisted, and impugned, I eventually lose my cool and show my worst side. Then people say, "At last, your true face shows." Some people will goad and goad and goad you until, at last, you "true face" shows.

I've come to the point where I refuse most attempts to draw me into explaining myself, since this has so often led to frustration and self-doubt. While I may often project confidence, the reality is that I'm very vulnerable to other's projections. Shaking off their labels isn't always easy for me. Am I arrogant? You bet. But who isn't? Mostly, I'm just a very serious, even stiff, person, who has difficulty making light of things. I admire people, like White Shaman, who can shake off criticisms with a good-natured joke or two. I think I often come off as more arrogant or self-righteous than I am on account of my seriousness. My tone is not relaxed or light-hearted, and this can occasionally come across as arrogance. I'm definitely opinionated and frequently very confident in my convictions, but, after swimming in an ocean of chaos and confusion for most of my life, and, finally, after so much research and effort, satisfying myself on a few points, I think I've earned the right to that.

Some of what you are perceiving in my tone, I think, is defensiveness. As I said, I've been drawn into pointless debates more times than I care to remember, and I'm very susceptible to people's projections of me. So, I really have to make an effort to assert my boundaries, and sometimes I do it rather clumsily or defensively. Despite my desire not to spend so much time and energy on these things, I took some time and made a real effort to be tactful in my response to you, without compromising my fiercely honest disposition. That is one thing I know about myself -- for better and often for worse, I am honest. It was not my intention to upset you, or to be dismissive of you. I really made an effort, but I see you took my words in the worst possible way. Let me assure you, Deus, that I am far from perfect. If your aim is to find fault with me, you won't have to look far. But, I believe, that if you train yourself to look for the good, you will find that even more abundantly.

One thing that my study of Astrology has taught me is that some people just rub each other the wrong way. It's not that anything is especially disagreeable about either one of them, but that their planets, or energies, are in opposition. They come from very different perspectives and find it extremely difficult to understand each other. The result, all too often, is heated misunderstandings of meanings and intentions.

When I began posting here, you were kind to me, and I consequently wrote a private message to you, which you responded to, also very kindly. Perhaps I ought to have responded to that, rather than leave it alone, so as not to leave you with any doubt as to my attitude towards you. Perhaps you felt dismissed then, and it has something to do with your feeling dismissed now. I see you've written me a private message, expressing your concern about my "arrogance" and refusal to accept your criticism. Since you've also expressed yourself, somewhat more emotionally, here, I've decided to respond to you here. I hope that wasn't a mistake. And I hope this response will be sufficient for you, because I really hope not to be baited into making any more of this than has already been made of it.

You seem like a good man, and I will continue to assume that we simply approach things differently, and probably have some very challenging aspects between our natal charts. While challenges can be educational, I find that I have enough trouble handling the ones in my own chart, and between myself and those people closest to me. “We must live for the few who know and appreciate us, who judge and absolve us, and for whom we have the same affection and indulgence. The rest I look upon as a mere crowd, lively or sad, loyal or corrupt, from whom there is nothing to be expected but fleeting emotions, either pleasant or unpleasant, which leave no trace behind them.” (~ Sarah Bernhardt)

Please understand, if I refuse to delve into this more than I already have. I wish you the best.

Peace

I appreciate your honesty Valus. As i said in my pm, I am not looking for a response, i did not call you arrogant, though i did say that i took issue with your projection of authority.

I may well be guilty of prodding and needling a bit, and am the worse of us in this exchange, as i perhaps was more negatively focused, and i apologize for any unnecessary judgement of your character, if that was the case.

However, after all this, and me wanting to just make a note to you in private, rather than draw it out into the public forums, which i specifically stated in *i am not looking for a response* you Still have not explained what you mean by 15 years of research?! lol, come on Valus, please do not take things so personally.

You may be spot on, in your assessment of me, and i am not looking to be your friend, though you seem more than worthy of that, believe me. I would however, just like you to qualify your statements some, when you make them, in order to validate, and hence, strengthen your position, which i do not doubt, you will be able to do.

I apologize again if i have rubbed you the wrong, way, i can be abrasive sometimes, and have to work on my own ettiquete, even insecurity issues myself, I freely admit that.

I wish you and your thread the best here, hopefully we can steer it back on topic. You owe me nothing Valus. We need not be enemies. We need not be friends. But Regardless, OneLove to you, and to all, and Merry Christmas, happy Holidays, however whichway you wish to take it, i mean it with a sincere heart. *

Peace . ~

Scibat
21-12-2010, 08:30 PM
Scibat,


I hope a lot of people read this. Your experience is very telling, and testimonies like yours provide the concrete examples which, ultimately, make the most effective arguments. Thanks for sharing it.


KP,

What I just said to Scibat goes for you, too.
Congrats on being Fibro Free! :smile:

Its one of the reasons I am going to try and cut out meat and switch to a low carb vegetarian/raw diet with lots of juice in the new year. I've observed that when I eat nearly anything that isn't just veggies, I tend to feel a little sick or bloated afterwards. The only time I haven't felt bad after a meal is when for a short time I was only eating salads and drinking water. But that got old after a few weeks and I fell off the wagon as it were. :redface: Hopefully if I can find enough variety with my new diet plans, that won't happen.

And a lot of my diet plans/info has come from you Valus, so thank you for that.

Also with the minimalist healthcare I am able to get under the state's medicaid system I feel I have to do something to heal myself or I won't make it 50 at this rate. (I'm 41 now -- But feel 70 ::tongue:)

Kapitan_Prien
21-12-2010, 08:47 PM
I'm the opposite of Scibat - I have to have high protein all the time...and therefore - give me my meat (and don't give me grief about it!)

Deusdrum
21-12-2010, 09:16 PM
Here is the thing, i do not see my points of contention as superficial. Nor pointless. It is easy to accept people when they agree with you, but if you are going to start a thread, and make statements that i disagree with, *i have the right to disagree*, and i do not believe them to be superficial, otherwise *I wouldn't have brought them up.*

"The truth about medicine".. i am distrustful *whenever* someone makes claim on the truth. This is a HUGE point for me. The ULTIMATE point. It is not, however, anything personal. If my spiritual guru, or the president or anyone other than God Him/Her self had said it, I would make a point of bringing it up.

It is so easy to slide into thinking we know what is best. I may know the truth for me, but that is just it, my truth. I don't know what is best for anyone else. People may roll their eyes, or whatever, but this perception of believing to have authority on the truth has lead historically to all sorts of atrocities. I repeat *huge* thing to me.

I really think tolerance is the name of the game. I have friends that are schizophrenic that may have done some terrible things without their medication. One of them, after trials and tribulations, has now nearly eliminated his need for them, but they got him through some rough times, and who can say what may have happened, had he not had the pysche ward and the medication.

I do believe the medical establishment, the way it is set up, is to keep people like sedated sheep, treating symptoms, rather than causes.

I eat meat, chicken mainly, and drink, and smoke, because i enjoy these things. Maybe i could do with a diet overhaul; but i don't like being made feeling guilty when i do these things, which many people do. I have the freedom to choose what i put in my body.

It may be the truth for you, it may not be for me. Edgar Cayce was a chain smoker, and he seemed to have done alright for himself. Many of my favorite authors, artists, were not the healthiest of people, but what they produced in terms of music and writing i love, and it is really no business of mine what they did or did not do in terms of diet.

"Those who overcome the world do not get sick" Also disagree. Sometimes sickness may be ordained by fate, or destiny, in my opinion. I find this also sort of a vague, blanket statement, and i think i know what you mean by it, though if you have not yourself have overcome the world, then how can you say this with any certainty?

This is how i feel. I have the right to express myself, you all have the right to disregard it, or do what you will with it.

OneLove!!!!

Kapitan_Prien
21-12-2010, 09:19 PM
Deusdrum: I eat meat, chicken mainly, and drink, and smoke, because i enjoy these things. Maybe i could do with a diet overhaul; but i don't like being made feeling guilty when i do these things, which many people do. I have the freedom to choose what i put in my body.

Rock on!

(I drink too :D - don't smoke though)

Chrysaetos
21-12-2010, 09:30 PM
"The truth about medicine".. i am distrustful *whenever* someone makes claim on the truth. I have friends that are schizophrenic that may have done some terrible things without their medication. One of them, after trials and tribulations, has now nearly eliminated his need for them, but they got him through some rough times, and who can say what may have happened, had he not had the pysche ward and the medication. Yeah, good points.
if you have not yourself have overcome the world, then how can you say this with any certainty?
Hehe indeed!
I'd love see a definition of ''overcome the world.'' Oh and proof! :D
And who are these persons? How do we know they never got/get sick?

Scibat
21-12-2010, 10:42 PM
I'm the opposite of Scibat - I have to have high protein all the time...and therefore - give me my meat (and don't give me grief about it!)

I LOVE my meat. I've been a hardcore carnivore all my life, but I've just realized my body won't tolerate it anymore. My mom died when she was only 48, and it was due to smoking, poor diet and general poor health. I'm one up in that I never smoked, but I feel if I don't start taking better care of myself now I won't make it past where she died.

Deusdrum
21-12-2010, 11:16 PM
I'm better now at not eating so much red meat. A friend of mine told me that people who eat white meat (chicken, fish probably iguess) are more healthy and live longer than those with a heavy red meat diet.

However, then there is the issue of how they raise chickens, which i admit, i feel guilty about, as the conditions are quite inhumane, not a big fan of supporting that. Free range eggs i buy, and "organic" chicken would likely be far better.

Where i live at least, there is unfortunately a monopoly kind of thing going on with farmers, where small farms cannot afford all the taxes, red tape and stipulations that the industry requires, and sometimes seemingly purposely targets small run businesses in favour of the big corporate ones, and this kind of scares me. Another facet of the globalization beast that is alarming.

Summerkat
21-12-2010, 11:29 PM
I don't eat red meat very much at all..only if its ground like in a hamburger. If its a slab or more chunky piece, don't want it. Not because I am trying to be more health conscious..just don't like the taste of it at all.

I have used homeopathy for less serious things. And was really pleased with it. I like that its a system you can use with people or animals. The homeopathic remedies are available here in some of the health food stores, not all but many of them. I had heard and I don't know if its true that its more popular in England and that the Royal Family uses homeopathy..I live in the States. Here where I'm at its hard to find a homeopathic physician which is a downside.

I will use alternative treatments always over conventional medicine any day. The only time I will see a conventional doctor is if there isn't a natural healing method that works well for whatever it is or in a life threatening emergency. But I always do a really good search. The AMA has it all sewn up. Even if you've been on a medicine for years and you need it you can't get it without seeing them. They pull more and more products from store shelves so that there isnt really that much left. They are forcing us to be dependant on doctors. You wind up with the cost of the doctor visit and whatever he does just to get a prescription. In todays economy more and more people are going without. They can barely cover the prescription but you add in those visits..they can't go so they do without.

I don't like that unless you bow down to the current medical establishment you cannot do for yourself. They make sure doing for yourself is less and less of a possibility all the time. :(

And I don't even want to go into horrors that were done to my Dad by doctors he trusted. They completely failed him and were negligent.

Valus
22-12-2010, 05:07 AM
Deus,

I can see that you're trying to be respectful, and, with all due respect, I'm not under any moral obligation to explain myself, or any of my perspectives, to you. What would be the point of walking you through fifteen years? Do you think I can even remember all the thousands of instances which have given weight to these conclusions? Nietzsche wrote: "I can scarcely recollect all of my ideas, without having to remember how I came by them." The pieces of evidence are too numerous to count, but it's only the sum of them all which tips the scale. So, I respectfully decline your invitation to prove anything to you. I have nothing to prove. I've proven these things to myself, and I am my hardest critic. Whether or not you believe me is of no consequence. This doesn't have to be a tug-o-war. Thank you for being polite. I wish you well.

Gem
22-12-2010, 05:31 AM
I stopped eating food additives maybe 5 or 6 years ago and have not had even a slight cold since.

Deusdrum
22-12-2010, 06:35 AM
Valus,

in the context of the *thread* when you claim to have 15 years experience of something, i expect people who claim such things to back them up with some sort of validation.

I don't care about whatever personal thing you are turning this into.

Thread. Topic. 15 years? IN WHAT WAY?!?

Otherwise, your claims are unsubstantiated to me, and i do not respect your proclaimed expertise.

All i care to say.

you - "i have 15 years experience, and i know how it is."

me - "oh really? in what field? What exactly, was this research of yours? what did you learn?"

Is this not on the topic of the thread which *you* started regarding the claims *you* made?

Your too good for me? Ok, fine. Have a nice day. buh bye. :happy3:

Valus
22-12-2010, 06:41 AM
Look at yourself, Deus.

You're one of those people
who doesn't know when to quit.

You just have to have you way,
and anyone who won't play along
is too good for you, eh?
Suit yourself.

I'm not trying to persuade you of anything.
I'm just sharing.

Please don't keep pushing.
I'm ashamed of myself for indulging you.
You just want power over people.

That's the real issue here.
And that's why I won't share with you.
It's the principle of the thing.

Good day

Deusdrum
22-12-2010, 07:00 AM
Valus, do you really think i am waiting in the background, sharpening my knives?

*stop making this personal*

bottom line. If you come on a *public forum* and make claims to support an argument, i expect you or *anyone else* to back them up in some way.

if i say "1+1=33, i've done some research, and thats what ive come up with. Sorry, if you don't agree, i won't accept any questions on the matter."

Sorry, that doesnt fly with me.

Im the bad guy. Yes. We've already established that. Im not looking for power over *anyone* And for you to say that, without knowing me.. not cool. Not cool at all.

Im not looking for a big dramatic thing here Valus. Please stop making personal comments as if i am trying to take something from you. That is *not* the case. If you didn't want to respond, then *don't* Im fine with that, i will go about my business. Tak.

I did my best to be the bigger man. I admit my faults. I *do not* want power over you or anyone.

I have a relationship between myself and *God* i do not need yours or anyone elses power.

Please try to stay on topic. Im not too interested in having a little dramatic spat between you here. Let it go. I have. i honestly was interested in the research you have done. Don't want to share? Fine. Let it be.

End of story.

Good day to you sir. ~ *

P.E.A.C.E.

(OneLove)

take it how you will. If you doubt my intentions, i leave it to you to judge how you may.

See this..... I am secure in this space which i emcompass. I have no need to infringe upon yours or anyone elses. Im good. Doubt me all you want. I do not doubt you.

Peace to you. I *mean* that. I don't need you to accept it. I know where i am coming from.

Take care. I apologize again for any infractions on my part.

Deusdrum
22-12-2010, 09:16 AM
And one last thing Valus, and please don't take this personally either, some of your writing is amazing. Wow. You really should write a book. Remind me of the poet Rilke in a way. Beautiful.

In the name of Love. I may indeed be guilty of the charges laid against me. It may be so. God, forgive me for my trespasses. I mean no ill will, to anyone ever. Amen.

OneLove . ~

inspirit
22-12-2010, 09:27 AM
This is a pretty good analogy about how people's emotional and mental and intellectual health can be approached also. I am definitely a supporter of holistic healing and methods.

Kapitan_Prien
22-12-2010, 03:20 PM
Yeah I don't eat much red meat myself - I don't like steak, but I enjoy a good meatloaf!

I, by far, prefer pork, chicken, turkey, seafood (shrimp, scallops, octopi, squid, haddock, salmon, tuna, crab,...)

I really agree with this:

I will use alternative treatments always over conventional medicine any day. The only time I will see a conventional doctor is if there isn't a natural healing method that works well for whatever it is or in a life threatening emergency. But I always do a really good search. The AMA has it all sewn up. Even if you've been on a medicine for years and you need it you can't get it without seeing them. They pull more and more products from store shelves so that there isnt really that much left. They are forcing us to be dependant on doctors. You wind up with the cost of the doctor visit and whatever he does just to get a prescription. In todays economy more and more people are going without. They can barely cover the prescription but you add in those visits..they can't go so they do without.

I don't like that unless you bow down to the current medical establishment you cannot do for yourself. They make sure doing for yourself is less and less of a possibility all the time. :(

Summerkat
22-12-2010, 03:26 PM
I, by far, prefer pork, chicken, turkey, seafood (shrimp, scallops, octopi, squid, haddock, salmon, tuna, crab,...)



Mmmm seafood! I think I could live on seafood!

BlueSky
22-12-2010, 03:38 PM
Mmmm seafood! I think I could live on seafood!

The way I look at seafood is this:
If you get one on the line, it tries like heck to get away. It doesn't willingly jump in the boat.
I figure that it wants to live.

This is not a judgment, it is just what I notice and one reason why I don't eat fish or meat.
Just sharing my story............:smile:

Kapitan_Prien
22-12-2010, 03:43 PM
I wouldn't mind a 'large' seafood diet...but I understand the issue of mercury. There's certain types that should either be avoided altogether or seldom eaten due to the mercury.

I don't care if it tries to get away - I embrace my predatory side. (Shark totem remember...)

BlueSky
22-12-2010, 04:26 PM
I wouldn't mind a 'large' seafood diet...but I understand the issue of mercury. There's certain types that should either be avoided altogether or seldom eaten due to the mercury.

I don't care if it tries to get away - I embrace my predatory side. (Shark totem remember...)

SWIM FISHEY'S SWIM! LOL

Kapitan_Prien
23-12-2010, 03:07 PM
LoL!

(although - technically that can apply to 'me' too as the shark is a fish as well... :D )

Summerkat
23-12-2010, 08:56 PM
LOL White Shaman and Kapitan :D

Good point about the Mercury... what a drag that everything that is good is bad. <runs around now pretending she didn't hear about Mercury> hehe

Kapitan_Prien
23-12-2010, 09:40 PM
Here's a decent guide with the mercury seafood:

http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/mercury/guide.asp

Summerkat
24-12-2010, 12:44 AM
No no no keep me in darkness! I don't want to find out seafood is bad. Please say it ain't so. ;)

incognito1948
24-12-2010, 04:32 AM
Valus, thank you for that informative post. I would just like to say that "disease" and "sickness" in America is BIG BUSINESS for doctors and hospitals. It has been said if a cure for cancer were found tomorrow it would put thousands out of work and the medical "business" would lose billions of dollars. It is a fact 80% of the health care dollars in this country are spent on the last two months of life. My question is why? My answer - there is too much money in the medical industry for a cure for cancer to be found and in letting us die with dignity. It is all about money, not the patient. The FDA and AMA are in bed together for big business and rich & powerful to become even more rich and powerful. Did you know that prior to a new drug hitting the market congress is allowed to buy stock in that drug prior to it's approval? Can you imagine if you owned stock in Pfizer when big blue was approved? What if you were an inside trader like congress and those in the know? Does anyone believe your doctor prescribes a medication solely because he is a believer in it's value as a cure? Medications are not a cure, they are a bandade and it is a racket in this country. Trust me, I have been on medications for years I found out later a homopathic remedy would have been less expensive and more effective. I have been from one doctor to another for a problem only to find it finally went away or was cured through accupuncture.

If you can be cured through homopath than it is wise to do so, keeping drugs out of your system, however; you should never rely solely on that method in serious matters. Having said that, if a doctor tells me I have incurable cancer I will turn completely to homopathy. Just keep in mind our medical system is a for profit system and keeping you alive, even if you are 90, your pace maker has given out and you do not want a new one, just want to die - there is a good chance a doctor will recommend a new pace maker to keep you alive even if only for a short time so the money can be made on that procedure.

NightSpirit
24-12-2010, 04:55 AM
Strangely enough I'm not aligned to synthetic drugs. Luckily, I've been blessed so far with reasonably over-all good health and haven't needed to over-use severe chemicals. I try to use natural mostly, but in those times I need to resort to chemical drugs, my body reacts badly to them. It seems to be low tolerant of anything harsh. If my health meant I needed to use synthetics, then so be it, but I will stick to my natural therapies while I can.

Thanks for the heads-up Valus.

Kapitan_Prien
24-12-2010, 03:28 PM
Re Summerkat:

LoL! :D

incognito1948
24-12-2010, 09:51 PM
I am signing up for a class in pranic healing. I have heard it's much more effective (maybe not much more) than Reiki or laying on of the hands. As someone in my sixties I want to be able to end some of my pain but also help my family and two golden retrievers. Anyone using this method with success?

Valus
28-12-2010, 09:12 PM
Valus, thank you for that informative post. I would just like to say that "disease" and "sickness" in America is BIG BUSINESS for doctors and hospitals. It has been said if a cure for cancer were found tomorrow it would put thousands out of work and the medical "business" would lose billions of dollars. It is a fact 80% of the health care dollars in this country are spent on the last two months of life. My question is why? My answer - there is too much money in the medical industry for a cure for cancer to be found and in letting us die with dignity. It is all about money, not the patient. The FDA and AMA are in bed together for big business and rich & powerful to become even more rich and powerful. Did you know that prior to a new drug hitting the market congress is allowed to buy stock in that drug prior to it's approval? Can you imagine if you owned stock in Pfizer when big blue was approved? What if you were an inside trader like congress and those in the know? Does anyone believe your doctor prescribes a medication solely because he is a believer in it's value as a cure? Medications are not a cure, they are a bandade and it is a racket in this country. Trust me, I have been on medications for years I found out later a homopathic remedy would have been less expensive and more effective. I have been from one doctor to another for a problem only to find it finally went away or was cured through accupuncture.

If you can be cured through homopath than it is wise to do so, keeping drugs out of your system, however; you should never rely solely on that method in serious matters. Having said that, if a doctor tells me I have incurable cancer I will turn completely to homopathy. Just keep in mind our medical system is a for profit system and keeping you alive, even if you are 90, your pace maker has given out and you do not want a new one, just want to die - there is a good chance a doctor will recommend a new pace maker to keep you alive even if only for a short time so the money can be made on that procedure.

You're preaching to the preacher, my friend.

All valid points, which need to be heard.

I'll repeat, for anyone who doesn't know:

Google: Dr. Peter Breggin and learn the truth about psyche-meds.

See his testimony before Congress, and check out his books: "Medication Madness: A Psychiatrist Exposes the Dangers of Mood-Altering Medications" and "Brain Disabling Treatments In Psychiatry"

Although medications list side-effects, most negative effects from the drugs will be mistaken for symptoms of the illness (which often is not an illness, but a sane and healthy reaction to a profoundly disturbed and diseased culture). If you go nuts when you get off meds, it's mainly because you're in WITHDRAWAL from a dangerous drug, not because your symptoms are reasserting themselves.

For natural healing of serious diseases, including cancer -- See: "The Gerson Therapy", "Healing Cancer From Inside Out", "Dying To Have Known", and/or "The Beautiful Truth", and read "When Healing Becomes A Crime"

Ultimately, when we speak of the afflictions of individuals we are always speaking of symptoms. The real causes of disease are in the culture. For insight into the sickness of the culture itself, check out: "Green Psychology", "Food Of The Gods", and "The Chalice And The Blade"

Valus
29-12-2010, 06:19 PM
Kapitan Prien,

You probably already know this, but I'll say it just in case...

There's a world of difference between embracing your predatory side and supporting factory farms, which torture animals for their whole lives, in addition to posing the single greatest threat to the environment and, therefore, the survival of the human species.

BlueSky
29-12-2010, 06:30 PM
Kapitan Prien,

You probably already know this, but I'll say it just in case...

There's a world of difference between embracing your predatory side and supporting factory farms, which torture animals for their whole lives, in addition to posing the single greatest threat to the environment and, therefore, the survival of the human species.

Well said and an important observation that all who eat meat would be good to study.
It just cannot be ignored.
Thanks Valus.........:smile:

Kapitan_Prien
29-12-2010, 06:42 PM
Yeah I know. I'm just tired (sick and tired to be exact) of being demonized because I eat meat...and anymore if people don't like it they can (well you know).

Chrysaetos
29-12-2010, 06:54 PM
The factory farms are problematic, but it isn't just meat but dairy as well. Some individuals might be able to handle a vegan diet for a while. I've been toying around with various vegetarian and semi-veg diet variations, but I can't deny we're omnivores in the end. Maybe we should get a new planet full with forests where we can all hunt for our food, and collect the wild fruits. I think we're too far now with agriculture (which has caused the population boom :tongue:)

BlueSky
29-12-2010, 07:01 PM
The factory farms are problematic, but it isn't just meat but dairy as well. Some individuals might be able to handle a vegan diet for a while. I've been toying around with various vegetarian and semi-veg diet variations, but I can't deny we're omnivores in the end. Maybe we should get a new planet full with forests where we can all hunt for our food, and collect the wild fruits. I think we're too far now with agriculture (which has caused the population boom :tongue:)

You mean that you cannot deny that 'you' are an omnivore in the end.

Personally I cannot make that general claim or deny it. :smile:

John32241
29-12-2010, 10:04 PM
I myself am in the mind over matter group.

I see all physical ills deriving from energetic imbalance. As a result, I devote a lot of attention to how the mind works to stimulate the emotional and physical bodies.

I am fond of science and spiritual insights that supports these contentions.

John

Summerland
29-12-2010, 10:24 PM
Yeah I know. I'm just tired (sick and tired to be exact) of being demonized because I eat meat...and anymore if people don't like it they can (well you know).

Fear not Prien; I am also a meat eater. I mainly have chicken, but once in a while I will get a powerful craving for bar-b-que ribs. I have learned to listen to my body cravings for particular foods. Later it becomes obvious why I craved those particular nutrients. Then there are times that I crave spinach or salads. I have to trust what my cells are telling me.

Kapitan_Prien
29-12-2010, 11:27 PM
My body simply requires high protein diet - I like a mix of protein (like in Mexican dishes - chicken, beans, cheese), but meat is the most 'long lasting' protein for me. Tofu doesn't cut it.

ultra-violet
30-12-2010, 12:06 AM
.................

Valus
30-12-2010, 06:05 PM
I've given up on pushing the vegetarian/vegan diet. For one thing, I'm not always faithful to it myself, so, I'd just end up feeling like one heck of a hypocrite. For another thing, I see how complex an issue it is, how deep an addiction it is (yes, an addiction), and what a personal decision it ultimately is. I don't blame anyone. Not anymore. But, for the record, tofu, and most soy, is bogus. Complete proteins, and lots of them, may easily be acquired through grains and through dark green leafy vegetables. That's my current conclusion, based on a fair amount of research. But the real issue is addiction. By calling it addiction, however, I don't mean to shame anyone. It's just the way I see it. It's a personal struggle, made more difficult by denial and all the justifications we make. But even when we see it directly, it's still a struggle, and it's not isolated; I mean, it brings up everything else; all our issues and dependencies. So, yeah, it's complicated, and I'm in no position to judge. I think minimizing suffering is something we should continue to focus on, but, I also think the real battle is in the mind. We need to think positively, and be understanding towards ourselves, or we will never have the power to overcome the challenges that hold us back.

Valus
30-12-2010, 06:06 PM
Thank you, ultra-violet.

God bless

Chrysaetos
30-12-2010, 08:32 PM
Complete proteins, and lots of them, may easily be acquired through grains and through dark green leafy vegetables. If you mix grains with beans you have a good source of protein.
The average western person gets enough protein, though it's far easier to get the requirements from animal foods.That's my current conclusion, based on a fair amount of research. But the real issue is addiction. By calling it addiction, however, I don't mean to shame anyone. It's just the way I see it. It's a personal struggle, made more difficult by denial and all the justifications we make. I saw it like that too, but after a while I noticed my body asked for it. Even had dreams of eating chicken. Mind over body isn't always working. I do consume soy but try to minimize it as I'm getting bored with the taste. I'm not even touching tofu, it's just an awful food in my opinion.

I have noticed that small amounts of white meat make me more energized and less sleepy. We all have different bodies and our species is very adaptable.

In the end, I think the majority of humans thrive the best on a diet high in vegetables, fruits and seeds, added with small amounts of white meat and/or eggs and dairy. The healthiest populations thrive on such diets (like Japan, Mediterranean). Some people might be able to handle a vegan diet or a lacto-veg diet, but they are probably a minority. It's either lacto-ovo veg or semi-veg (with small amounts of white meat) with me. I'm fine with both.I think minimizing suffering is something we should continue to focus on, Yes.

Valus
31-12-2010, 07:42 AM
Are you familiar with what William Burroughs called the "heroin metabolism"? It's the metabolism of a serious junky, which craves heroin. When the drug is withheld, the person gets sick. This is called "withdrawal". Some recovered addicts never get entirely free of the craving. They have dreams about it. I'm just saying. From what I've experienced, seen, and read, I don't believe meat is a necessary part of a healthy diet, for any human being.

NightSpirit
31-12-2010, 07:56 AM
I'll take a brave step LOL....
Do you realise you can live totally on the energy of Prana? Of course it takes a very disciplined mind/body/soul, but can be done.

Valus
31-12-2010, 07:56 AM
Excellent point.

Chrysaetos
31-12-2010, 09:53 AM
Are you familiar with what William Burroughs called the "heroin metabolism"? It's the metabolism of a serious junky, which craves heroin. When the drug is withheld, the person gets sick. This is called "withdrawal". Some recovered addicts never get entirely free of the craving. They have dreams about it. I'm just saying. From what I've experienced, seen, and read, I don't believe meat is a necessary part of a healthy diet, for any human being.I don't see it like that. Humanity has been eating meat for God knows how long, I don't think it's just an addiction.
I'll take a brave step LOL....
Do you realise you can live totally on the energy of Prana? Of course it takes a very disciplined mind/body/soul, but can be done.Nope it's not possible. We need food and water to live in this world.

NightSpirit
31-12-2010, 10:04 AM
I don't see it like that. Humanity has been eating meat for God knows how long, I don't think it's just an addiction.
Nope it's not possible. We need food and water to live in this world.

I'll debate that Chrysaetos...here's a start...

http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/breatharian.htm

Chrysaetos
31-12-2010, 10:15 AM
I challenge anyone here to try breatharianism for only a week! No food and no water..
And ask some scientists to keep an eye on you.

Breatharians are fooling the public, many examples here: http://www.rickross.com/groups/breat.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .rickross.com%252Fgroups%252Fbreat.html)

http://www.skepdic.com/inedia.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .skepdic.com%252Finedia.html)

People have died because of this ideology. Even a water fast for too long is damaging to the body, which puts breatharianism out of the question.

andrew g
31-12-2010, 10:35 AM
Man who lives without food and water.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm

psychoslice
31-12-2010, 10:40 AM
Who on earth would want to go without food or water ?, like what are they trying to prove? talk about dumb.

NightSpirit
31-12-2010, 10:42 AM
Who on earth would want to go without food or water ?, like what are they trying to prove? talk about dumb.

coming from you Slice..I find that rather funny :D

psychoslice
31-12-2010, 10:47 AM
coming from you Slice..I find that rather funny :D
gee everything I say is funny, but this takes the cake lol.

NightSpirit
31-12-2010, 10:49 AM
gee everything I say is funny, but this takes the cake lol.

Well there's no accounting for humour :D :D

Valus
31-12-2010, 08:08 PM
Man who lives without food and water.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F2%2Fh i%2Fsouth_asia%2F3236118.stm)

Inspiring! Thank you.

Our limits are as real as we believe them to be.

When we learn to influence the unconscious mind,
we can get down to the real spiritual business
of removing blocks in our thinking.

Our doubts keep us imprisoned.

Our faith sets us free.

Chrysaetos
31-12-2010, 10:19 PM
Inspiring! Thank you.
Our limits are as real as we believe them to be.
When we learn to influence the unconscious mind,
we can get down to the real spiritual business
of removing blocks in our thinking.
Our doubts keep us imprisoned.
Our faith sets us free. Why should we believe a story? Because the news (note: they make no conclusions) tells us?

More about the Indian..

Read:
http://www.skepdic.com/skeptimedia/skeptimedia90.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.skepdic.com%2525252525252Fskeptimedia%252525 2525252Fskeptimedia90.html)
Watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0u6eJB9GLY (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.youtube.com%2525252525252Fwatch%252525252525 3Fv%2525252525253Dl0u6eJB9GLY)

As living creatures on earth we need food and water.
If it's simply a case of mind over matter, why don't you people put it to the test?

I challenge anyone who believes in this breatharianism tripe to put it to practice.
(but do quit when your body tells yo to do, please don't ignore it!)

Kapitan_Prien
31-12-2010, 11:51 PM
Chrysaetos: Even a water fast for too long is damaging to the body, which puts breatharianism out of the question.

I remember ...a long long time ago...before the many crashes of SF, that I had brought up about 'extreme fasting' and it is a simple fact what Chrysaetos stated. Our bodies are 80% water. As one who experienced dehydration (and not from fasting - that isn't something that I, someone who is underweight and has CFS would ever think to do) am with Chrysaetos on this. I was fortunate enough that I still had enough 'ability' to drive myself 15 min. to the hospital...but by the time I was laying on the bed I was so out of it that all I knew was that I was in 'a' hospital. I didn't know which one, nor did I remember how I got there. They had to put a 'bag' and a half of fluid in me before I felt better.

I had also experienced dehydration from when I got very ill a year or so ago and vomited and had diarrhea very bad. I dehydrated very quickly and experienced the same weakness and disorientation like I did before. I almost didn't have anyone to come help me as it took me several tries to get my mom (I have no friends whom I could call on or relatives).

So...this unhealthy extreme fasting nonsense...I'm not buying it.

NightSpirit
01-01-2011, 01:15 AM
Well I DID say I'd take a brave step to mention 'prana'... LOL...at least it gave you all something to debate about...:D

*the fly in the ointment*

Valus
01-01-2011, 04:36 AM
Dr. Mark Hyman on
"The overwhelming evidence of the healing power of food"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJkCiYnuVw0

http://www.ultrawellness.com/blog

Valus
01-01-2011, 05:17 AM
"And now we come to what I always say. People come and ask: Is it better not to drink alcohol or to drink alcohol? Is it better to be a vegetarian or to eat meat? I never tell anyone whether he should give up alcohol or drink it, whether he should eat plants or meat. I say to people: Alcohol does so and so. I simply explain its effect, and then they may decide whether to drink or not. I do the same with regard to vegetarian or meat diet: Meat does this and plants do that. And the result is that they can decide for themselves... One does not tire so quickly. From within the organism one does not get so tired because one does not deposit all this uric acid and its salts. One does not tire so quickly and keeps a clearer head and can therefore think more easily, that is, if one thinks at all... We must understand each other precisely as to the purpose of today's lecture and the intention behind it. We are not agitating in favour of particular tendencies, nor are we trying to be reformative. The spiritual scientist is obliged to state the truth of things. His attitude must never be agitatorial, and he must be confident that when a person has perceived the truth of what he says, he will then proceed to do the right thing... Now I do not proselytise, I merely want to state the truth. We shall get to know still other effects of meat diet; we shall be obliged to discuss this subject in some detail. This is why progress in inner anthroposophical life gradually produces a sort of revulsion against meat. It is not as though one has to forbid meat to anthroposophists, but the healthily progressing instinct gradually turns against meat and no longer likes it. And this is much better than becoming a vegetarian out of some abstract principle. The best is when spiritual science causes man to develop a kind of aversion for meat."

~ Rudolf Steiner
Nutrition and Stimulants

The Hidden Truth About Your Food
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFoWXROyAc
Factory Farming vs. Raw Food
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOlEQlzn_t (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOlEQlzn_tE)

Valus
01-01-2011, 05:26 AM
Chrysaetos,

Don't get me started on James Randi, lol.
There's plenty of evidence out there debunking him.

The fact is, what seems miraculous to us
is accomplished by highly spiritual people.

Asking an average person to test this theory
is absurd, since the theory itself clearly states
that these abilities are not at all average.

Nevermind weeks, months, years, or decades --
it take many lifetimes to develop the
discipline of mind to accomplish these things.

Super-rare spiritual powers aside,
let's get back to the protein discussion:

The Protein Myth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae-dlHOmwk4 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.youtube.com%2525252 Fwatch%2525253Fv%2525253Dae-dlHOmwk4)

Chrysaetos
01-01-2011, 10:41 AM
Rudolf Steiner is a theosophist and a karma hugger. I have my reasons to take such people not too seriously.

Valus, if you are so sure about breatharianism and you've done your decades of research then put this baby to the test.
I am only asking for you people to do it for let's say... 4 days.

There are no humans that can live without water and food for too long. Just believing in it doesn't change reality.
Our thoughts about reality do not make it what it is.

NightSpirit
01-01-2011, 10:50 AM
One can only sit one side of the fence....not in the middle and then teeter whatever way the best wind blows from.

Reality is either created and trusted by other then the human mind...or the human mind says 'this world of the 5 senses is our only reality and nothing beyond it can be created or changed'.

Which way is it going to be for each of you?

Chrysaetos
01-01-2011, 01:00 PM
Reality is either created and trusted by other then the human mind...or the human mind says 'this world of the 5 senses is our only reality and nothing beyond it can be created or changed'.

Which way is it going to be for each of you? What people describe as beyond the world of our senses is always subjective and guess work.

If you truly believe your beliefs and ideologies can change biological facts then let's put the baby to the test.
Practice it and let's see how many days you can live without food and water! And use all your spiritual armoury: meditations, chants, prayers, beads, symbols.. Use it all.
Try it out! :icon_wink:

Kapitan_Prien
01-01-2011, 02:34 PM
Chrysaetos: What people describe as beyond the world of our senses is always subjective and guess work.

If you truly believe your beliefs and ideologies can change biological facts then let's put the baby to the test.
Practice it and let's see how many days you can live without food and water! And use all your spiritual armoury: meditations, chants, prayers, beads, symbols.. Use it all.
Try it out! :icon_wink:

It's nice to see there is still common sense here ;)

Kapitan_Prien
01-01-2011, 02:37 PM
And I had a different sort of thought regarding this...

...are some spiritual people so determined to 'separate' themselves from the physical (perhaps because they consider the physical 'unclean' 'unspiritual') that they do this sort of nonsense?

If they didn't like the physical so much - then perhaps they should stop using herbs, crystals, incense, etc. in their spiritual practices.

Why even incarnate in the first place then...?

Valus
01-01-2011, 06:12 PM
Rudolf Steiner is a theosophist and a karma hugger. I have my reasons to take such people not too seriously.
Steiner WAS a theosophist,
before he broke with Theosophy,
and founded Anthroposophy.

Buddha was a "karma hugger" too.

Valus, if you are so sure about breatharianism and you've done your decades of research then put this baby to the test.
I am only asking for you people to do it for let's say... 4 days.

There are no humans that can live without water and food for too long. Just believing in it doesn't change reality.
Our thoughts about reality do not make it what it is.
I already responded to this,
and told you why your "challenge" is absurd.

I am putting the power of the mind to the test,
but I am starting where I am.

What you are proposing is paramount to this:

"If you really think lifting weights can make you
so strong that you can lift a thousand pounds,
then put it to the test; lift weights for 4 days,
and then try to lift a thousand pounds."

lol

Chrysaetos
01-01-2011, 06:46 PM
Buddha was a "karma hugger" too. Yep and karma is very cultural so I don't take it too seriously. I already responded to this, and told you why your "challenge" is absurd.I am putting the power of the mind to the test, but I am starting where I am. I think it's absurd to say humans can live without food and water, when all the evidence and common sense tells us we do need food and water.

I understand you want to take this in small steps, so why not try breatharianism for two days?

NightSpirit
02-01-2011, 02:54 AM
I understand you want to take this in small steps, so why not try breatharianism for two days?


If we believe we are human, then human we shall be. There's no amount of mind-work will change that if we trust too much in it....because under the surface of the minds thoughts, there lies more belief....so the mind can think it, but truly not believe it deep within.

Only the most disciplined and practiced persons can overcome this dilemma we believe so strongly that we are. Thus your challenge is non-sensical to the lay person.

Chrysaetos
02-01-2011, 10:33 AM
Only the most disciplined and practiced persons can overcome this dilemma we believe so strongly that we are. Thus your challenge is non-sensical to the lay person. How would you know people can and where is the evidence for this? Despite having no evidence the lay persons believe in breatharianism and Godman.
This dilemma you speak about are the delusions of the mind that believes it can create everything it wants. If it could then surely some Godman would be able to fly and conjure up a tyrannosaurus.

''Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'' - Carl Sagan.