Is Atheism Becoming a Religion?

[002 Cents]

I couldn't help but notice a news story that really stood out to me recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYUlhEMTCdk

Am I the only one who finds this to be tasteless?

Are they becoming their own religion?

[Chrysaetos]

No it's not (becoming) a religion, because of this.. (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.etymonline.com%2Fi ndex.php%3Fterm%3Dreligion)

[Valus]

It fits the definition alright.

"particular system of faith"

They BELIEVE that there is no God,
based on no evidence whatsoever,
but, rather, on what they take to be
the absence of evidence.

An odd position, to be sure.

[Chrysaetos]

Absence of belief.
The burden of proof lies with those who claim God/tooth fairy/angel/croc monster etc. exists..

More.. (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatc h%3Fv%3DsNDZb0KtJDk)

[002 Cents]

I can actually see both arguments being made here.

Atheism as a term to define where you stand spiritually is not something I have a problem with. I know many atheists who are good honorable people. However, I can say the same for Agnostics, Christians, Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, Unitarian, Taoist, Humanist... on the flip side of that coin I also know plenty of dishonorable people who fall into each category...

My concern is that the way this group is representing themselves as, "Speaking on Behalf of Atheists" is imposing on Peaceful, Respectful Atheists a belief system and personal conduct they may not agree with.

Generally, I feel they should not incorporate the term Atheist in their Agenda nor do I feel, if they celebrate the Holiday, they should call it Christmas. They don't have to believe in God, but if they insist on Hijacking a holiday dedicated to Jesus, the least they can do is be respectful.

They could have just as easily placed a banner that said "May the Season bring you Joy".

[Scibat]

Absence of belief.
The burden of proof lies with those who claim God/tooth fairy/angel/croc monster etc. exists..


I politely disagree.

[Valus]

I distinguish between atheism and agnosticism.

"The atheist forgets that what he is affirming is, precisely, a negation."
~ Marcel Proust

[BlueSky]

The way I see it.........they (atheists) don't believe in a God and those that do, cannot come to an agreement on what the word God even means.
Sounds like everyone is in the same boat. lol
James

[Valus]

Unconditional love, the spirit of truth and goodness which unites, surrounds, purifies, transforms, and makes all things new... I call this "God", because I can think of no greater word, and because it is worthy of the name.

[pre-dawn]

Am I the only one who finds this to be tasteless? Not at all. makes you think, doesn't it?
I also think that both are right. There is no problem.

[Lovely]

By definition, no because they are not worshiping any supernatural
being. However they are defiantly acting like a fundamental religion
which they are so against. There wasting money that could be used
for a greater cause (such as being spent on food for the starving) and
they're using it to spread their beliefs which is something religious people
do. Not to mention they are against anyone and everyone who disagrees
with them. Just like most religious people.

[psychoslice]

No I don't think Atheism is becoming a religion, I think that those who don't believe in religion are closer to the truth than most religions. They live for the now, they don't cling to life like most religious people would, they live their life as if its their last, to me this is really living. the religious cannot prove anything they believe in, they live on faith and hope, many religious people wast their whole life searching for something thats not even there.

[Saladkiller]

everyone should just drop this facade. theres no athiesm, nor is there any religion. Theres just a bunch of scared people holding on to whatever they feel will give them what they want out of life.

[Greenslade]

I must have missed something here, so being on the road to Enlightenment I ask. If Atheists don't believe in anything, how can they have a religion?

It fits the definition alright.

"particular system of faith"

They BELIEVE that there is no God,
based on no evidence whatsoever,
but, rather, on what they take to be
the absence of evidence.

An odd position, to be sure.

What evidence does people need to believe in God? Last I heard it wasn't about proof but about faith and people go to war about religion.

So when is Jesus' birthday? Or will any old Pagan date do? Christmas is a Pagan festival and nobody is sure when Jesus was actually born. The general consensus of opinion seems to be the 11th of September but sometime in April has been put forward as well.

When you're putting up your Christmas tree remember the Druids that started it, the Yule (Thule) log and the holly and the ivy - all Pagan symbology. Santa Claus originated in Finland, and came from a religion that the Catholic church tried to wipe out by sending Charlemange and his army. What I don't agree with about what the guy is saying is that Christianity is a religion not worthy of respect. I respect everyone's beliefs regardless of whether they believe in God or not. But please, don't hijack some other religions holidays and traditions to use as your own then tell me about Truth.

[SeaZen]

I couldn't help but notice a news story that really stood out to me recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYUlhEMTCdk

Am I the only one who finds this to be tasteless?

Are they becoming their own religion?

Not only is it tasteless but its presumptuous "you know its a myth"! Atheism definitely is a religion. They have a set of core beliefs about the nature of life, death and the universe that they fervently cling to that are unyielding. As with all religions there are some really pleasant people and some obnoxious proselytizers as evidenced by this billboard.

[HipDavid]

Organization does not constitute religion.

[SeaZen]

Organization does not constitute religion.

But unyielding hardcore beliefs do and thats what atheism wishes to project

[Scibat]

But unyielding hardcore beliefs do and thats what atheism wishes to project

By promoting their own unyielding hardcore belief? That's called hypocritical.

[Greenslade]

Not only is it tasteless but its presumptuous "you know its a myth"! Atheism definitely is a religion. They have a set of core beliefs about the nature of life, death and the universe that they fervently cling to that are unyielding. As with all religions there are some really pleasant people and some obnoxious proselytizers as evidenced by this billboard.

Historically speaking it's not a myth. By the way, Christianity is based on Paganism.


But unyielding hardcore beliefs do and thats what atheism wishes to project

Not my Atheism, but I could say the same about some Christians. Do you actually understand Atheism and what are you basing your beliefs on?

By promoting their own unyielding hardcore belief? That's called hypocritical.

Isn't that what some Christians do? Do you actually understand Atheism and what are you basing your beliefs on?

How many have actually sat down and talked to an Atheist before commenting? Or do you feel you are enlightened enough not to? Being honest, if you don't then you can't call yourself any kind of Enlightened and it's little wonder that religion gets a bad name. I really don't see anything here that would persuade me otherwise. It's not the religion or the lack of it that's the problem here but the people. So by all means hang onto something that has little Truth in it, because Christ wasn't born on Christmas day and almost everything you do (apart from going to your Christian church) is based on Paganism, a religion that Christians have tried to systematically wipe out.

Like it or not, Christmas and Christianity is Pagan-based. If you want to get away from the Paganism, don't celebrate Christ's birthday on the 25th of December because that is not when he was born. Christmas trees, holly and ivy, 25th of December, Santa Claus are all Paganistic.

[Greenslade]

No I don't think Atheism is becoming a religion, I think that those who don't believe in religion are closer to the truth than most religions. They live for the now, they don't cling to life like most religious people would, they live their life as if its their last, to me this is really living. the religious cannot prove anything they believe in, they live on faith and hope, many religious people wast their whole life searching for something thats not even there.


Give that man a beer - or many :-)

[hybrid]

atheism is not a religion.
they don't have a definite set doctrines and dogmas to speak of,
they are not organize in a way that they have hierarchy of leaderships
and tithe their members with money and favors.
neither do they have sacred traditions and rituals.

atheism is more like a movement.
an idea that spreads itself.
so more of a philosophy than a religion.


.

[SeaZen]

atheism is not a religion.
they don't have a definite set doctrines and dogmas to speak of,
they are not organize in a way that they have hierarchy of leaderships
and tithe their members with money and favors.
neither do they have sacred traditions and rituals.

atheism is more like a movement.
an idea that spreads itself.
so more of a philosophy than a religion.


.

As one has already posted, organization and hierarchy does not make a religion. Unyielding beliefs however do and the atheists definitely have those. Note, the keywords here are unyielding beliefs
For example:

1) When you die you forever cease to exist

2) There is no God or higher power or creative force in the universe

3) The only dimension is the 3D world

etc. etc. etc.

Agnostics have an open mind and are highly more evolved than atheists. Atheists close theirs the same way religionists do by subscribing to a set of unyielding beliefs. Though I feel atheists are far more evolved than most religionists, they are nevertheless the opposite side of the same coin. Many have a smug sense of superiority and ridicule religionists. Just go to an atheist forum and you will see what I mean. "Reason" and "physical science" is their god.

Nothing wrong with that. To each his own. But to say that atheists are some kind of objective, neutral movement is folly. It is a belief system like any other. Agnostics on the other hand are the ones who are truly objective, open minded and neutral.

[SeaZen]

Not my Atheism, but I could say the same about some Christians. Do you actually understand Atheism and what are you basing your beliefs on
.

Yes, I have seen documentaries on atheism and read their online material and it is very "belief based" (see my previous post). Explain to me the difference between an atheist and an agnostic and you will see what I mean

How many have actually sat down and talked to an Atheist before commenting? Or do you feel you are enlightened enough not to? Being honest, if you don't then you can't call yourself any kind of Enlightened and it's little wonder that religion gets a bad name. I really don't see anything here that would persuade me otherwise. It's not the religion or the lack of it that's the problem here but the people. So by all means hang onto something that has little Truth in it, because Christ wasn't born on Christmas day and almost everything you do (apart from going to your Christian church) is based on Paganism, a religion that Christians have tried to systematically wipe out.

Like it or not, Christmas and Christianity is Pagan-based. If you want to get away from the Paganism, don't celebrate Christ's birthday on the 25th of December because that is not when he was born. Christmas trees, holly and ivy, 25th of December, Santa Claus are all Paganistic

Yes, I have spoken with many atheists online and have read their message boards. Everything I have posted about it is accurate according to my observations. Why are you automatically bringing up christianity and its foibles? Do you assume that you are addressing "christians"? If you do you are wrong. I found that it is very typical of atheists such as the guy who wrote the "god delusion" to assume that anyone who has an open mind about dimensions other than 3D and spirituality in general are some kind of 12th century religionists or religious fanatic. Most here have dropped affiliation with religious dogma and doctrines of any kind and have an open mind about things such as enlightenment and tolerance of others and their beliefs.

Atheists have even come up with labels that separate themselves from others. They now refer to themselves as "brights" and to everyone else as "supers". Supers being short for "supernaturalists". As if supernaturalists are not "bright". This kind of labeling encourages separateness and a subtle superiority which does not seem "enlightened" to me.

[002 Cents]

I actually like the points being brought up here.

Because, it is very true. I have heard many arguments be made from an atheist perspective referring to faith as supernatural even fairytale. And I have to say that is a very self important perspective to have. To deem another person's belief system as supernatural is to suggest that they are out of touch with reality and you are more so.

In the case of making an argument that the stories circulating about the birth of Jesus are a Myth... again, It is drawing a conclusion without knowing all the facts. The tale as it is may not make sense to us but it is entirely possible we don't have all the information. This makes certain elements of the story Questionable but not necessarily Myth.

No matter what side of the fence you stand on, where your belief system is involved, you should not to work in absolutes. It is best to remain objective and recognize when something is neither here nor there.

So, Questionable? Yes

Fact or Myth? Can not be determined without more information.

That is where faith comes in for people who chose one side over the other.

Yes Faith, Either Faith in that the stories are fact or faith that in light of current scientific knowledge there is no possible way it could have happened. Either way you are filling in blanks with your faith to draw a conclusion where the only possible conclusion is an unknown.

[inspirit]

Atheists will strongly argue that atheism is not a belief system at all or anything of the sort. But it seems obvious to me that it is. They have their gurus and their points of contentions. They even have their own mock deities which they use to make fun of those who believe in something that cannot be seen.

[Chrysaetos]

1) When you die you forever cease to exist
3) The only dimension is the 3D worldAn atheist may say that, but if you make those statements you are a materialist.
An atheist just doesn't believe in deities. And in that sense, we are all atheists, because we can't believe in every deity out there.

[hybrid]

For example:

1) When you die you forever cease to exist
atheist would say there is no proof that when one dies he will go to heaven.
so there is no compelling need to believe it.

2) There is no God or higher power or creative force in the universe
atheist would say there is no proof of the existence of god,
so there is no need to believe it.

3) The only dimension is the 3D world
atheist would say there is no proof of a world other than this
so there is no need to believe in a spiritual world.


.

[hybrid]

so it is wrong to say - atheist believe there is no god.
it's not even fair to attribute this to atheists.
since no god means non existent.
no one can believe in something that doesn't exist.
belief to be a belief must have an object of faith.

,

[SeaZen]

atheist would say there is no proof that when one dies he will go to heaven.
so there is no compelling need to believe it.
.

Thats not what I heard on the documentary I saw on TV. They showed an atheist summer camp for kids and they showed the female camp counselor teaching the kids that we only have this one life and when its over, thats it, you cease to exist.

[inspirit]

Teaching kids there is no God is a little like teaching them that there is no Love and that "it's all just chemicals in the brain." It just feels wrong to me.

[SeaZen]

Teaching kids there is no God is a little like teaching them that there is no Love and that "it's all just chemicals in the brain." It just feels wrong to me.

I agree. Teaching kids that there is no god or afterlife is just like teaching them that god is some kind of angry, vengeful a-hole that we need to fear. We need to get rid of the doctrines and let them come to their own conclusions.

[SeaZen]

No matter what side of the fence you stand on, where your belief system is involved, you should not to work in absolutes. It is best to remain objective and recognize when something is neither here nor there.
.

Buy 002 cents a beer! Atheists fail miserably at this as do religionists. Opposite sides of the same dogmatic coin. That is why there is a designation called agnostic which is much more enlightened and open minded than either. I belonged to an agnostic forum previous to this one and I remember atheists coming on line challenging us calling us cowards, deluded etc. for keeping an open mind.

[Chrysaetos]

Teaching kids there is no God is a little like teaching them that there is no Love and that "it's all just chemicals in the brain." It just feels wrong to me.Every child is born atheist. All the stories about gods are just hearsay.
Just because chemicals show us how the body reacts to, or creates ''love'', does not mean ''love'' does not exist.
I agree. Teaching kids that there is no god or afterlife is just like teaching them that god is some kind of angry, vengeful a-hole that we need to fear. We need to get rid of the doctrines and let them come to their own conclusions.There's no absolute certainty about the afterlife, and even if you say there is, then we're left with the question: what afterlife?
The answer to this question is a limited cultural phenomena. Why teach that? Let children just enjoy life.

[Lostgirl]

I didnt think it could become a religion because they have no faith?! Or is it faith in not having a faith?! Who knows?!

[hybrid]

Thats not what I heard on the documentary I saw on TV. They showed an atheist summer camp for kids and they showed the female camp counselor teaching the kids that we only have this one life and when its over, thats it, you cease to exist.
isn't that plain obvious and observable in life?


.

[hybrid]

Buy 002 cents a beer! Atheists fail miserably at this as do religionists. Opposite sides of the same dogmatic coin. That is why there is a designation called agnostic which is much more enlightened and open minded than either. I belonged to an agnostic forum previous to this one and I remember atheists coming on line challenging us calling us cowards, deluded etc. for keeping an open mind.
perhaps, you are agnostic because you wanted to be open minded just like the atheists. it's just that you won't give up the desire to live forever whereas the atheist has no desire and need for that.

if you really sincere to know this stuff, first you have to ask yourself who is it that wants to live forever .

.

[inspirit]

I didnt think it could become a religion because they have no faith?! Or is it faith in not having a faith?! Who knows?!

It's not a religion. Even worse, it is a cult belief system.

[Lostgirl]

Thats what i thought, how can people who have no religion become a religion?!

I wouldnt quite call it a cult, i dont think there is anything wrong with not having a religion it is each to their own and if they chose to to believe then fine. As long as they dont sit there and slate what i believe or the fact that i believe in something then i have no problem. There is nothing worse than having someone stomp on your beliefs and tell you that you are wrong because you believe something.

[Chrysaetos]

It's not a religion. Even worse, it is a cult belief system.Well, why don't we put this baby to the test?

Cult:
1 a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object:the cult of St Olaf
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members:a network of Satan-worshipping cults
a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular thing:the cult of the pursuit of money as an end in itself
2 a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society:the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK[as modifier] :a cult filmhttp://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0196740#m_en_gb0196740 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Foxf orddictionaries.com%252Fview%252Fentry%252Fm_en_gb 0196740%2523m_en_gb0196740)

What are the beliefs of 'atheism' ? The only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in deities. If we take further steps, we simply dabble in philosophical materialism.

[hybrid]

It's not a religion. Even worse, it is a cult belief system.
i'm not aware that they have any strange or secret rituals and extreme practices to qualify atheism as a cult.

perhaps there are some charismatic proponents of atheism advancing a particular cause.
like say freeing man's mind from the bondage of religious beliefs whom they perceived as backward, superstitious and stuff of childish myths.

if they have any beliefs, they believed in reason.

.

[002 Cents]

Yet at the same time they criticize Christianity.

Granted I have my own beef with people who practice their faith as a method of reaffirming their own sense of self importance. However, in making reference to Christianity they are also making reference to Christ. Weather they believe he was the living God or not, it is in poor taste to bash him. After all he is not simply a Christian Idol he was a person with a strong moral character who left behind some very valuable teachings. And regardless of what you believe where it pertains to an omnipotent being one should be respectful of what he lived and died for. It would be like spiting in the face of Mother Teresa, Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. You just shouldn't do it. And more than it would tarnish the character of any of these tremendously respectable people, unbeknownst to the basher, it reveals a weakness in the integrity of their own character.

The glue of self importance is a strong binding adhesion between like minded folks, believers and disbelievers alike.

And perhaps that is the common link I am seeing here. Self Imposed Self Importance.

[SeaZen]

Every child is born atheist. All the stories about gods are just hearsay.
.

How do you know this? You cant prove this. I can just as easily say every child is born agnostic

There's no absolute certainty about the afterlife, and even if you say there is, then we're left with the question: what afterlife?

There is very strong evidence that there is. There are highly scientific studies on NDE's and reincarnation that indicate otherwise

The answer to this question is a limited cultural phenomena. Why teach that? Let children just enjoy life

If you re-read my OP, I never said to teach children either but to let them make their own determinations

[SeaZen]

isn't that plain obvious and observable in life
.

Depends on your experiences. People who have had NDE's or experienced astral projection who recall details of a previous life may rightfully observe otherwise

[SeaZen]

perhaps, you are agnostic because you wanted to be open minded just like the atheists. it's just that you won't give up the desire to live forever whereas the atheist has no desire and need for that.

if you really sincere to know this stuff, first you have to ask yourself who is it that wants to live forever .

.

Im not agnostic, I am spiritual. I merely belonged to an agnostic forum. I should have made that clear earlier. Agnostic's don't believe in an afterlife, they merely do not disbelieve in it as atheists do. They keep an open mind about things that they cannot prove or disprove as opposed to creating a definitive belief about it as atheists do.

[hybrid]

Yet at the same time they criticize Christianity.

Granted I have my own beef with people who practice their faith as a method of reaffirming their own sense of self importance. However, in making reference to Christianity they are also making reference to Christ. Weather they believe he was the living God or not, it is in poor taste to bash him. After all he is not simply a Christian Idol he was a person with a strong moral character who left behind some very valuable teachings. And regardless of what you believe where it pertains to an omnipotent being one should be respectful of what he lived and died for. It would be like spiting in the face of Mother Teresa, Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. You just shouldn't do it. And more than it would tarnish the character of any of these tremendously respectable people, unbeknownst to the basher, it reveals a weakness in the integrity of their own character.

The glue of self importance is a strong binding adhesion between like minded folks, believers and disbelievers alike.

And perhaps that is the common link I am seeing here. Self Imposed Self Importance.
of course it all boils down to what is important to one's self. but i don't see any wrong in critical thinking. it's not the same as bigotry, religious discrimination or persecution.

besides criticism on both parties usually happen in symposium and open forums. which make it a fair and square battle of ideology. atheist holds no sacred cows, so when you argue with them, you've got to really hold on tight to your jesus marbles, hehe

.

[hybrid]

Depends on your experiences. People who have had NDE's or experienced astral projection who recall details of a previous life may rightfully observe otherwise
this can be explain thru neuroscience and doesn't have to resort to myths or speculation for explanation.


.

[hybrid]

Im not agnostic, I am spiritual. I merely belonged to an agnostic forum. I should have made that clear earlier. Agnostic's don't believe in an afterlife, they merely do not disbelieve in it as atheists do. They keep an open mind about things that they cannot prove or disprove as opposed to creating a definitive belief about it as atheists do.
as i have explained earlier, it's arbitrary on your part to insist in defining an atheist who is someone who believes in the non existence of god. they don't and can't believe in someone or something who does not exist. how can that be? and how can anyone in general do that? can you explain how can anyone believed and hold on to something that does not exist to them?

do you see how futile it is to ascribe to them some kind of belief on something? if they believe, they believe or hold on to an idea. but that does not fall in the category of religion, it is more philosophy.

.

[SeaZen]

this can be explain thru neuroscience and doesn't have to resort to myths or speculation for explanation.


.

I beg to differ. One case in question. A 70 year old woman who went totally blind at 18 was operated on when 70 and flatlined for a while. She reported floating above the OR and was able to see again and described the OR in detail along with the Doctors hair color, watch etc. The Doctors were flabbergasted and reported the incident to the NDE researcher who wrote the book (i believe his name was moody). Neuroscience cannot explain or justify that.

[SeaZen]

as i have explained earlier, it's arbitrary on your part to insist in defining an atheist who is someone who believes in the non existence of god. they don't and can't believe in someone or something who does not exist. how can that be?
.

They also believe in the non-existence of life after death when a plethora of evidence suggests otherwise. NDE research, Ian Stevensons highly scientific research on reincarnation etc. . Neuroscience cannot explain the NDE incident I detailed earlier nor can it explain the 3 year olds who vividly described a previous life, in another city and how they died. It is definitely a belief.

and how can anyone in general do that? can you explain how can anyone believed and hold on to something that does not exist to them?

A 16th century person could not believe in bacteria and viruses but that doesnt mean that they didnt exist. That is how I view atheists, they only see what is in front of them. They refuse to consider possible realities and dimensions that may exist but instead refute them because they cannot experience it.

do you see how futile it is to ascribe to them some kind of belief on something? if they believe, they believe or hold on to an idea. but that does not fall in the category of religion, it is more philosophy.

No, their very specific non-beliefs are in and of themselves beliefs

[002 Cents]

Sea Zen- Just for a moment I ask you to consider the possibility you are taking this too far.

This was thread was not meant to Bash Atheist beliefs or lack there of as I have said there are plenty of honorable atheists in the world. And I do not judge according to how one defines their system of beliefs rather how they conduct themselves. The group who posted the billboard, is misrepresenting what it means to be Atheist by publicly tacking onto their non-belief a blatant disrespect for those who do believe.

The way you are attacking atheism is no better.

[002 Cents]

of course it all boils down to what is important to one's self. but i don't see any wrong in critical thinking. it's not the same as bigotry, religious discrimination or persecution.

besides criticism on both parties usually happen in symposium and open forums. which make it a fair and square battle of ideology. atheist holds no sacred cows, so when you argue with them, you've got to really hold on tight to your jesus marbles, hehe

.

I appreciate what you bring to the discussion. Self Important is a term I use to describe people who cling to the idea of superiority based on religion, sexual preference, gender, ethnicity, social status... the list is endless.

To have belief is not what makes them self important. It comes down to "Do they believe it somehow makes them superior?"

One can hold a belief and say "it is what works for me" and at the same time accept it isn't for everyone. Diversity is a beautiful thing, why ruin that?

There is common ground to be found between all faiths, believers, non-believers, in every walk of life but one who shrouds themselves in their own superiority only keeps themselves from experiencing that beautiful diversity.

I am not going to comment on the "Jesus Marbles"... not exactly sure what you were referring to. I actually hold Jesus in very high esteem and I defend him as a beautiful honorable being who deserves the utmost respect. That said I am most certainly not Christian.

[hybrid]

I beg to differ. One case in question. A 70 year old woman who went totally blind at 18 was operated on when 70 and flatlined for a while. She reported floating above the OR and was able to see again and described the OR in detail along with the Doctors hair color, watch etc. The Doctors were flabbergasted and reported the incident to the NDE researcher who wrote the book (i believe his name was moody). Neuroscience cannot explain or justify that.

it can also mean consciousness is non local or non dual. if that is the case, there is no life after death. only life here and now.

.

[hybrid]

I appreciate what you bring to the discussion. Self Important is a term I use to describe people who cling to the idea of superiority based on religion, sexual preference, gender, ethnicity, social status... the list is endless.
this superiority plagues humanity in general.
this is not exclusively atheist.


To have belief is not what makes them self important. It comes down to "Do they believe it somehow makes them superior?"

One can hold a belief and say "it is what works for me" and at the same time accept it isn't for everyone. Diversity is a beautiful thing, why ruin that?
beliefs are like virus . only this time it is ideas that that that attached to a human host and multiplies itself by spreading the idea to others.

they even have a name for this. its called meme
meaning "me-me".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FMeme)

There is common ground to be found between all faiths, believers, non-believers, in every walk of life but one who shrouds themselves in their own superiority only keeps themselves from experiencing that beautiful diversity.
yes, i can even see the common thread of all the major religions in the world.
i believed they call it perennial philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FPerennial_philosophy)

I am not going to comment on the "Jesus Marbles"... not exactly sure what you were referring to. I actually hold Jesus in very high esteem and I defend him as a beautiful honorable being who deserves the utmost respect. That said I am most certainly not Christian.
i mean when atheist debate with a christian it is unavoidable that an atheist would question the credibility of jesus. specially the issue as to whether he was really born and lived in canaan,

,

[002 Cents]

Never said it was exclusive to atheists, nor did I say all atheists behave as self important.

Comparing beliefs to virus seems like an imperfect analogy. In deed those that resonate with individuals can spread like wild fire. And if that is the basis of your comparison I will agree. However, Virus also comes with a negative connotation of being harmful in which case I have to disagree as not all beliefs are harmful.

At any rate. I found your links informative. You seem to be quite versed in terminology pertaining to "Beliefs".

As for arguing the credibility of Jesus. I am not trying to convert anyone. I do however believe people who get caught up in the argument over his immaculate conception and weather or not he was the incarnation of God and had profound super hero like abilities and is coming to send all us heathens to hell on judgment day... are really missing out on the "Who" he was and "What" he lived for. It is entirely possible to admire and respect Jesus and disagree with Christianity. Even still there are ways to disagree with taste and tact.

[SeaZen]

Sea Zen- Just for a moment I ask you to consider the possibility you are taking this too far.

This was thread was not meant to Bash Atheist beliefs or lack there of as I have said there are plenty of honorable atheists in the world. And I do not judge according to how one defines their system of beliefs rather how they conduct themselves. The group who posted the billboard, is misrepresenting what it means to be Atheist by publicly tacking onto their non-belief a blatant disrespect for those who do believe.

The way you are attacking atheism is no better.

Please use specific examples to reveal to me how I am "bashing" atheism. I have stated specific "non-beliefs" of theirs to validate the point of this thread that it has become like a religion. I have not, in any of my postings, communicated any disparaging value judgments concerneing them as individuals or their "non-beliefs". I do not understand how you came to this conclusion. Please advise.

[SeaZen]

it can also mean consciousness is non local or non dual. if that is the case, there is no life after death. only life here and now.

.


If consciousness can survive bodily death intact and take on some kind of mutually exclusive subatomic "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) form from the physical body, wouldn't that constitute some kind of "life" after death? After all, it is in perfect correlation with the law of physics that says nothing can be destroyed, it only changes form.

[hybrid]

If consciousness can survive bodily death intact and take on some kind of mutually exclusive subatomic "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) form from the physical body, wouldn't that constitute some kind of "life" after death? After all, it is in perfect correlation with the law of physics that says nothing can be destroyed, it only changes form.
perhaps but without the belief in stupid myths.

[002 Cents]

It does seem strange to me that you went from trying to elaborate the point that they have a belief system to trying to prove the existence of an afterlife???

I think you have successfully proven that as a solid atheist belief.That said... Making the case that there is an afterlife to someone who doesn't believe in afterlife is a cyclical argument. You may as well be trying to hammer a nail into an iron bar. And in that way I suggest it is airing on the side of "Knowing" which is not unlike them claiming to "know".

I do see that this was the progression of the conversation as opposed to blatant bashing.

I do however feel it has exhausted it's ability to serve as productive.

But you are welcome to continue your debate if you like.

I will simply say, your belief system in the "Afterlife" is not one I agree with nor is it one I care to discuss.

Blessings

[hybrid]

It does seem strange to me that you went from trying to elaborate the point that they have a belief system to trying to prove the existence of an afterlife???

I think you have successfully proven that as a solid atheist belief.That said... Making the case that there is an afterlife to someone who doesn't believe in afterlife is a cyclical argument. You may as well be trying to hammer a nail into an iron bar. And in that way I suggest it is airing on the side of "Knowing" which is not unlike them claiming to "know".

I do see that this was the progression of the conversation as opposed to blatant bashing.

I do however feel it has exhausted it's ability to serve as productive.

But you are welcome to continue your debate if you like.

I will simply say, your belief system in the "Afterlife" is not one I agree with nor is it one I care to discuss.

Blessings
is the word "perhaps" implies a belief?
and i'm not an atheist. fyi

although it strikes me dumb that educated people would believed that earth was created in 6 days. beliefs are powerful to delude. specially the belief in beliefs. whereas all one's resources blindly used to depend one's beliefs. a belief's own defense mechanisms. where the host's mind is powerless to think for itself. it is totally taken control by the belief system and becomes a slave to its propagation.

.
.

[Shim]

How can you disbelieve in God, seeing you were dead (the particles atoms that had long been appointed to constitute the body of each of you were dispersed in air, water, and earth, then transferred to the worlds of plants and animals according to certain laws and principles, and taken as food, formed into sperm in the loins of your fathers, thereafter placed as a drop of seed in the wombs of your mothers. Having undergone several stages, they came to the point of formation where God breathed into them out of His Spirit) and He gave you life. (You live until the hour He appointed for each of you, and) then He causes you to die. Then (you stay as long as He wills in the world of the grave, between this world and the next, until, following many mighty revolutions) He will bring you back to life; and then (passing through a series of tremendous revolutions and several worlds) you will be returned to Him. -- The Qur'an

[Squatchit]

The question strikes me as a bit potty.

Atheists don't believe - they disbelieve.

It's got nothing to do with religion.

[hybrid]

How can you disbelieve in God, seeing you were dead (the particles atoms that had long been appointed to constitute the body of each of you were dispersed in air, water, and earth, then transferred to the worlds of plants and animals according to certain laws and principles, and taken as food, formed into sperm in the loins of your fathers, thereafter placed as a drop of seed in the wombs of your mothers. Having undergone several stages, they came to the point of formation where God breathed into them out of His Spirit) and He gave you life. (You live until the hour He appointed for each of you, and) then He causes you to die. Then (you stay as long as He wills in the world of the grave, between this world and the next, until, following many mighty revolutions) He will bring you back to life; and then (passing through a series of tremendous revolutions and several worlds) you will be returned to Him. -- The Qur'an

you probably meant life is awesome and then weave a story around it.

,

[hybrid]

The question strikes me as a bit potty.

Atheists don't believe - they disbelieve.

It's got nothing to do with religion.
yes. i don' t know how they see a rejection or absence of belief is also a belief.
must be one of those irrational beliefs they clung to about atheism. hehe

.

[002 Cents]

is the word "perhaps" implies a belief?
and i'm not an atheist. fyi

although it strikes me dumb that educated people would believed that earth was created in 6 days. beliefs are powerful to delude. specially the belief in beliefs. whereas all one's resources blindly used to depend one's beliefs. a belief's own defense mechanisms. where the host's mind is powerless to think for itself. it is totally taken control by the belief system and becomes a slave to its propagation.

.
.

My bad that was meant as a response to SeaZen. I really should utilize that "quote" feature more often.

[002 Cents]

As defined by the organization that posted the bilboard.

http://www.atheists.org/atheism

What is Atheism

Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.


The following definition of Atheism was given to the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560, 10 L.Ed.2d (MD, 1963), to remove reverential Bible reading and oral unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools:


“Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.


An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.


An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.


He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.


He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.


He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”

[002 Cents]

As defined by the organization that posted the billboard

http://www.atheists.org/religion

Religion

In the history of the world, nothing has been the catalyst of more grief, hatred, war, and crime than religion. Religion allows a person to hate, kill, torture, or steal, while allowing him to recuse himself of all blame. Religion causes people to break the laws of ethics and morality in the name of a god.


Religion dulls the mind and weakens the senses. It makes "God did it" seem like a reasonable answer to anything at all, squelching questions of why, and how, and when, and replacing these questions with repeated mantras and prayers to nobody.


Religion is exquisitely profitable, with most adherents tithing a portion of their income. The churches, synagogues, and mosques, which do little to serve their community outside of "outreach programs" (marketing and recruiting), pay almost no taxes.


Religion spreads like disease through societies, rarely coexisting with pre-existing mythologies, rather preferring to conquer or be conquered. Religion is anything but tolerant.


American Atheists is not afraid to point out that which is true: religion is ridiculous. Mythology and religion are synonymous, and none is better than another. Religion is malicious, malevolent, and unworthy of respect.
You probably knew that already.



We're respectful of the American People's individual rights to practice as they see fit (equal to our rights to do the same), but this does not mean we have to respect the decision. If you choose to ignore logic and knowledge in order to believe in an invisible magic man in the sky, or Santa Claus for that matter, you've made a ridiculous decision and we're not going to pretend it's "just another way of looking at things".



We challenge the ethics of the professional liars who claim to speak for gods to bilk parishioners into giving away their money in exchange for an immortality that will never be granted. We also challenge the ethics of the politicians who use government to further their religious agenda, and vice versa. We will not let anyone's religion infiltrate our schools, our government, or our pockets, at least not without a good fight.


Atheism, the absence of religion, is the only "ism" that obeys the laws of physics. There is never a "well you have to have faith about that part" in atheism. Nowhere in atheism is there a text that must be obeyed, or a preacher that knows the "one true way". In atheism, "god did it" is not acceptable, but "I don't know" is just fine -- because it's the truth.

[hybrid]

yes atheists have beliefs too.
but not belief in god so as to qualify it to become a religion.

actually humans are creatures of beliefs.
we can't sit on a chair without believing it will carry our weight,
so we are a people of faith after all.

we put our faith in the manufacturer's competence, on contracts, on justice system, etc etc,

[002 Cents]

Still waiting to see your response to what they had to say about Religion.

I am trying to point something out here.

If you don't feel this is a misrepresentation of Atheism... by all means continue to defend it. But as this group continues to grow and continues to preach the belief that:

that which is true: religion is ridiculous. Mythology and religion are synonymous, and none is better than another. Religion is malicious, malevolent, and unworthy of respect.

It is only going to tarnish the reputations of those like my husband who use it as a term to express a lack of belief in God and maintain that all who give respect are so deserving regardless of their beliefs.

[hybrid]

Still waiting to see your response to what they had to say about Religion.

I am trying to point something out here.

If you don't feel this is a misrepresentation of Atheism... by all means continue to defend it. But as this group continues to grow and continues to preach the belief that:



It is only going to tarnish the reputations of those like my husband who use it as a term to express a lack of belief in God and maintain that all who give respect are so deserving regardless of their beliefs.
well this is where i can't make any comment in behalf of atheism any further,
personally i welcome the wisdom of all religions but reject its superstitious aspects.

.

[002 Cents]

Fair enough.

I would say I am about where you are spiritually.

personally i welcome the wisdom of all religions but reject its superstitious aspects.

However, I do conceive the idea of God. Not as an omnipotent being but rather as a universal oneness.

[hybrid]

Fair enough.

I would say I am about where you are spiritually.



However, I do conceive the idea of God. Not as an omnipotent being but rather as a universal oneness.

yes among many things that the word or concept of god may refer to, although to me i don't consider it as a belief but as a model or a pointing

.

[SeaZen]

It does seem strange to me that you went from trying to elaborate the point that they have a belief system to trying to prove the existence of an afterlife???


Well, thats how the discussion flowed.

I think you have successfully proven that as a solid atheist belief.That said... Making the case that there is an afterlife to someone who doesn't believe in afterlife is a cyclical argument. You may as well be trying to hammer a nail into an iron bar. And in that way I suggest it is airing on the side of "Knowing" which is not unlike them claiming to "know".

I was not trying to make a case for the afterlife but merely trying to point out how that "when you die you cease to exist" is a belief in light of solid evidence that indicates otherwise which proves my point that atheism is like a religion in which they cling to a solid set of unyielding beliefs

I do see that this was the progression of the conversation as opposed to blatant bashing.

Thanks for clearing that up

I do however feel it has exhausted it's ability to serve as productive.

Now that I have clearly and unequivocally made my point with evidence, yes, it has been exhausted

But you are welcome to continue your debate if you like.

Thanks

I will simply say, your belief system in the "Afterlife" is not one I agree with nor is it one I care to discuss.
Blessings

It is not my belief system but a real world example I used to make a point in the affirmative about the thread topic of whether atheism is becoming a religion. Sometimes a point can and should be debated in and of itself, but as long as it doesn't go beyond the scope of the thread topic and hijack the thread, I think its appropriate. I don't feel I overstepped that boundary. I understand that you do not care to discuss the particulars of the afterlife and neither do I.

[SeaZen]

perhaps but without the belief in stupid myths.

I think we have found some common ground. I wholeheartedly agree! :smile:

[SeaZen]

that which is true: religion is ridiculous. Mythology and religion are synonymous, and none is better than another. Religion is malicious, malevolent, and unworthy of respect.

This is an opinion and atheists are allowed opinions. It is an alienating opinion that doesn't foster oneness but when you see the world going to **** because of religious zealotry and extremism and how certain religious beliefs have served to crush the human spirit and sexuality, it tends to bring out the brutal honesty in people. Its an opinion I tend to agree with when it comes to traditional islam and fundamental christianity.

[hybrid]

I was not trying to make a case for the afterlife but merely trying to point out how that "when you die you cease to exist" is a belief in light of solid evidence that indicates otherwise which proves my point that atheism is like a religion in which they cling to a solid set of unyielding beliefs
.
yes, this may be a belief regardless it has basis or not. but it fell more on the family of beliefs that consciousness is an emergent property of matter, a materialist view that may also be shared by atheism. but again, i just don't think that this belief qualifies atheism as a religion.

.

[SeaZen]

yes, this may be a belief regardless it has basis or not. but it fell more on the family of beliefs that consciousness is an emergent property of matter, a materialist view that may also be shared by atheism. but again, i just don't think that this belief qualifies atheism as a religion.

.

Not just that, they believe that the randomness of atoms smashing into each other during the big bang somehow created highly complex planets and living organisms. Thats just like saying that if you place a monkey in front of a piano and he bangs on the keys long enough, he will create beethoven's 9th symphony. I do not wish to commit to a position either way or debate this particular point, but my point is that it is another belief that has quite a plethora of valid logic, evidence and theory that indicates otherwise. In other words, its not a definitive fact.

My point is that they have very definitive naturalistic world/universe/life beliefs that they ascribe to their self designated label of "atheists" which IMO makes them a religion. Whether the beliefs are natural or supernatural, they are still beliefs not grounded in definitive fact.

[Greenslade]

My point is that they have very definitive naturalistic world/universe/life beliefs that they ascribe to their self designated label of "atheists" which IMO makes them a religion. Whether the beliefs are natural or supernatural, they are still beliefs not grounded in definitive fact.


How many religions can you say that about?

There are no absolutes in belief systems, by their very nature they are beliefs and not facts - maybe that's why they call them belief systems. Science says that the physical Universe has evolved since the Big Bang and is a collection of atoms come together by seemingly random chance. Science also says that Love is not much more than a bunch of electrons whizzing around in our heads. Until they put a meter on God and bring back photos of them in Heaven it'll always be a matter of belief.

For my money (going back the the billboard) I don't have a problem with it because they're doing what others have been doing for long enough - making their views public. Whether you agree with them or not is another matter. If you are truly seeking Enlightenment then you should try and understand where they're coming from, or at least simply accept that they are as entitled to their views as anyone else. So many times I see the Christians saying this is Jesus' birthday and Christmas is a Christian festival. What I don't see is Christians giving this time of year back to the Pagans where it originally come from. Nobody is really sure when Jesus was born but I remember reading that a priest once worked it out as the 9th of September. Christmas is a Pagan festival co-opted by Christians that tried to wipe out Pagan beliefs. Religion didn't start with Christianity. That's historical fact, and as far as I'm aware about the only facts there are around Christianity - or any religion. While I'm aware that the Bible is supported in part by historical evidence that Jesus existed, there's also evidence to say he didn't. All it boils down to is what you decide is evidence to support your beliefs.

Being brutally honest I can actually understand from my own perspective where they're coming from. It seems that apart from the beliefs they're not so different from anyone else - religion isn't such a bad idea until people start believing in it. If you care enough or wanted to be Enlightened enough you'd look behind that mask and see that. Calling one religion right and another wrong and criticising it isn't particularly Enlightened, and if you don't have respect for other's beliefs how can you expect someone to have respect for yours? And putting people in boxes and dealing with them from that perspective? Not all Athiests have the same views, and doesn't Christianity have different 'flavours'?

I worked with a devout Christian who saw me as the spawn of the devil because I had no problem in talking about my Spiritual beliefs. She didn't believe in Hallowe'en because it was a Pagan festival, but then one day I caught her hanging up Christmas decorations and told her that it was a Pagan festival, the holly and the ivy were sacred to the Druids. The Yule log is actually a Thule log. It wasn't until one day she joined in a conversation I was having with a devout Muslim that she found out that none of any of our beliefs were so far away after all. The moral of the story? There's only a difference if you want to make one.

[SeaZen]

How many religions can you say that about?


All of them


There are no absolutes in belief systems, by their very nature they are beliefs and not facts - maybe that's why they call them belief systems. Science says that the physical Universe has evolved since the Big Bang and is a collection of atoms come together by seemingly random chance. Science also says that Love is not much more than a bunch of electrons whizzing around in our heads. Until they put a meter on God and bring back photos of them in Heaven it'll always be a matter of belief.


Agreed, however there are no absolutes in in science when it comes to the big things like creation etc. Its all theory and beliefs.


For my money (going back the the billboard) I don't have a problem with it because they're doing what others have been doing for long enough - making their views public. Whether you agree with them or not is another matter. If you are truly seeking Enlightenment then you should try and understand where they're coming from, or at least simply accept that they are as entitled to their views as anyone else. So many times I see the Christians saying this is Jesus' birthday and Christmas is a Christian festival. What I don't see is Christians giving this time of year back to the Pagans where it originally come from. Nobody is really sure when Jesus was born but I remember reading that a priest once worked it out as the 9th of September. Christmas is a Pagan festival co-opted by Christians that tried to wipe out Pagan beliefs. Religion didn't start with Christianity. That's historical fact, and as far as I'm aware about the only facts there are around Christianity - or any religion. While I'm aware that the Bible is supported in part by historical evidence that Jesus existed, there's also evidence to say he didn't. All it boils down to is what you decide is evidence to support your beliefs.


Though I found it divisive, I completely understood where they were coming from and I didnt blame them. I explained my position in an earlier post. I agree with what you said about christianity.


Being brutally honest I can actually understand from my own perspective where they're coming from. It seems that apart from the beliefs they're not so different from anyone else - religion isn't such a bad idea until people start believing in it. If you care enough or wanted to be Enlightened enough you'd look behind that mask and see that. Calling one religion right and another wrong and criticising it isn't particularly Enlightened, and if you don't have respect for other's beliefs how can you expect someone to have respect for yours? And putting people in boxes and dealing with them from that perspective? Not all Athiests have the same views, and doesn't Christianity have different 'flavours'?


Im not sure if you are venting in general or referring to me. If you are referring to me, I never called one religion right or another wrong or criticizing it or disrespecting it. I merely pointed out the fact that atheism has a certain set of core beliefs that cannot be proven without a doubt and that is why I consider it as a religion of sorts and Im sure a religion with different flavors. I wasnt making any value judgments on this. I was contrasting this with Agnosticism which witholds beliefs and judgments on things that are inconclusive which doesnt make it a religion.


I worked with a devout Christian who saw me as the spawn of the devil because I had no problem in talking about my Spiritual beliefs. She didn't believe in Hallowe'en because it was a Pagan festival, but then one day I caught her hanging up Christmas decorations and told her that it was a Pagan festival, the holly and the ivy were sacred to the Druids. The Yule log is actually a Thule log. It wasn't until one day she joined in a conversation I was having with a devout Muslim that she found out that none of any of our beliefs were so far away after all. The moral of the story? There's only a difference if you want to make one


You are preaching to the choir

[Saladkiller]

Interesting thread. I believe athiesm is its own religion, if not technically, then in experience.

People cant live without "religion" in some form, if you dont hold one thing as sacred then it just ends up being something else. A lack of faith in god simply means that energy is placed elsewhere. In other words, if its not one thing, its another.

Its like this article that NASA did recently about the microbes that can eat arsenic, and a counter article about how the experiment was faulty. Most likely, the people who did that experiment simply did not think to account for that variable, but now there is this huge "outrage" about it. An inquiry is understandable, but who in their right mind would be outraged over someone else's ineptness?

Really, whatever you hold most dear to you, as being important.. is your religion.

[Greenslade]

It wasn't all about you, SeaZen :-)

[002 Cents]

Greenslade- I am surprised you of all people are defending this billboard with the pretense that, "they're doing what others have been doing for long enough".

This "Eye for and Eye" reasoning is not good enough for me. Misconduct is misconduct regardless of which side it comes from. This is not the first nor will it be the last group I call out for their conduct. I spoke far more harshly of the reverend who was organizing the Quran burning. For who is he to both preach the word of and at the same time do such disservice to the name of Christ to defend his own sense of self importance? Likewise, the posting of this billboard as well as their a fore defined religion as "malicious, malevolent, and unworthy of respect." is exactly that, Self Important.

http://www.atheists.org/religion (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.atheists.org%252525 2Freligion)

Atheism is and should remain, simply a term used to define where one stands spiritually. Organized Atheism is proving to be no better than any other organized religion in the way that they are preaching Self Importance.

"In the history of the world, nothing has been the catalyst of more grief, hatred, war, and crime than religion. Religion allows a person to hate, kill, torture, or steal, while allowing him to recuse himself of all blame. Religion causes people to break the laws of ethics and morality in the name of a god."

You see while they blame Religion for all that is wrong with the world, I see that the problem does not lie in Faith but rather the idea of self importance.

As an Atheist, given that this group plans to show the world what it means to be Atheist, should you not have a vested interest in how they do this? How can you not be offended that rather than letting these funds be used to reflect the capacity of their character, they use it to preach self importance associated to their own system of beliefs?

[Greenslade]

002 Cents, I'm not defending it, all I'm saying is that I can see their point of view. You can argue historical fact until the cows come home, but there seems to be little hard evidence that Jesus - and Christianity - is what it is supposed to be. Until such time as that evidence is found, there will always be a for and an against argument if you want to make one. Keeping it to the subject of Christmas, Christians have called it a Christian festival for long enough. It's not a Christian festival but a Pagan festival. Jesus was not born on the 25th of December, one of the more accurate theories is that he was born on the 11th of September. As for the billboard itself, I've seen any amount of Christian literature decrying Paganism - the very religion Christianity was born from. I can actually understand where they're coming from, but I don't agree with their reasoning around the billboard. By all means state your beliefs as you see them, but if you can't respect another's beliefs or religion then don't expect people to respect yours? As the man says "An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind".

Religion is actually a great idea until people start believing in it. While I say I'm an Athiest I don't align myself with any particular group or religion. To me, Atheism is my belief and not a religion. If the Christians and the Atheists want to be self-important that's entirely up to them, I don't have any strong views either way. What I would say is decrying one religion for another isn't particularly Enlightened. If you're going to do Truth then let's do it properly and base it on what actual evidence can be found for and leave the rest to belief. But at least be open and honest about those beliefs. Being brutally honest 002 Cents, I'm fed up with the whole argument of this religion versus that religion and until such time as someone bans religion (which I don't agree with) or until religions start talking to each other as adults it's always going to be there. I don't have a problem with any religion, what I have a problem with is what people use it for.

I don't take offence, I believe it's as bad to take offence as it is to give. But self-importance can be attached to many religions, and if you cut across the mask of religion and see the people behind it, none of the religions are so far apart after all. It would be so easy to go into the 'Christianity has a lot to answer for' argument but it's only conducive to perpetuating the difference. I received a PM from a Spiritualist that lives the the Bible belt of America, she's very wary of even giving people the slightest hint that she's not staunch Christian. My own personal experience reflects this. So whose capacity of character would you care to reflect? From what I can see, one is as bad as the next. With attitudes like that there's little wonder there's an anti-Christian Atheism coming into being. Self importance is not confined to Atheism, but is turning away from one brand of self-importance and picking up another any the more Enlightened?

I'm not anti-Christian because I can - from my perspective at least - understand much of Christianity. I understand the belief in God, in what Jesus taught and the power of prayer. If that doesn't compute with some people then maybe they should start to think outside of their boxes, because all of my beliefs of there not being a God could be used to argue that he exists. I have read the Bible, and I have a copy of it on my bookshelf. Even the Mary Magdalene text that came up in another forum resonated with me. But then, so did the Popul Vuh.

Perhaps if people spent the energy in taking offence to dig a little deeper in order to gain a better understanding we might all get along a little better. My question would ask about the reasons they feel they need to put up that billboard? What's really behind it?

Look behind the mask.

[002 Cents]

I get the feeling there is a terrible miscommunication going on between us and I am not understanding why.

Do you think I am Christian?

Do you think I am not familiar with the history of Christmas and Christianity?

"I'm fed up with the whole argument of this religion versus that religion and until such time as someone bans religion (which I don't agree with) or until religions start talking to each other as adults it's always going to be there. I don't have a problem with any religion, what I have a problem with is what people use it for."

Right here, I couldn't agree with you more. For me I have taken this frustration to a point where I am more than just the person standing in the median criticizing all that is wrong with the world. Instead I try to encourage others to see what I have seen my whole life. That we aren't so much different as we are the same. Trust me in my case it is an uphill battle, as I was raised in a home that taught every kind of self importance, those who are closest to me will never see what I see.

Why is it you presume I don't understand the motivations behind his actions?

Without knowing him personally one can't assume to know his back history with religion to know why he has such a distaste for it. But you don't need to know the back story to know the difference between right and wrong.

As I have stated I see this as an "Eye for an Eye" maneuver on his part.

I am not going to dispute with you your idea of what constitutes enlightened. I don't assume I am or claim to be such. Nor do I believe 99% of the people who do, have any clue what enlightenment is. So I am not sure where you get that from. I think I would be best defined as a critical observer and a cheerleader of sorts. Trying to empathize for one mans blatant disregard for the beliefs of others is not a valuable investment of my time.

Regardless, :hug2:

[002 Cents]

Although, all that said I popped out of here and the first thread I saw was "Is Atheism just an excuse to be selfish?"

Believe me the presumptuousness of that title alone makes me a little insane... but... this is a friendly forum.

Undoubtedly, Atheism is an idea that catches a lot of unnecessary criticism. My criticism is not unnecessary. It would be a shame to see Atheism associate itself with a behavior that hyperjudgemental people have been labeling it with for centuries.

They are defending their beliefs but at the same time they are taking a sucker punch at the other guy.

I don't just Know an Atheists, I am married to one. And even he has a problem with what this man is doing in the name of Atheism. I respect his lack of belief and over the course of our marriage we have come to understand the only difference between his beliefs and my own are 1. How we define what we believe and 2. the emphasis we put on what is important. And that emphasis has nothing to do with him being Atheist and me being... I don't even know what I am. Guess that would be Agnostic...

[hybrid]

an atheist core belief is this ... religion is the opium of the masses.

.

[Celtaine]

it is my understanding an aetheist just doesnt beleive because there is no proof and they are very big on science and technology (which owing to the advances for doctors ability to cure most things nowadays, who could blame them, science is fantastic) the two tie into eachother science requires evidence and tried and tested theory put into practise.

Truth be told though I think most aetheists are in some small way agnostic atleast sometimes in their life. One will not beleive the same thing now in 50 years unless it truly sticks in the mind and soul.
And I dont think aetheists should be subject to prejudice either just because maybe they think you think a load of rubbish is no reason you cant like them for another reason, (there maybe plenty other things you do have in common, hobby, fashion tastes, or whatever, a persons beleif or lack of is no reason to simply dislike someone), people can atleast make the effort to be civil to one another(even if only for the 3rd parties sake). "do unto others" and all that jazz. ^_^

[hybrid]

Truth be told though I think most aetheists are in some small way agnostic atleast sometimes in their life. One will not beleive the same thing now in 50 years unless it truly sticks in the mind and soul.

on a personal level, this is how i got around.
first i was a ...

1. catholic and nominal christian (born to this)
2. agnostic
2. born again evangelical
3. spiritual
4. and now an atheist in the name of god

.

[Celtaine]

on a personal level, this is how i got around.
first i was a ...

1. catholic and nominal christian (born to this)
2. agnostic
2. born again evangelical
3. spiritual
4. and now an atheist in the name of god

.
Well I comend you. :) It's good to try new things even if they don't stick. As the saying goes "never try, you'll never know".
Is this list in order? If so do you mind me asking how many years it took altogether to get from catholic and nominal, to Atheist ITNOG?

[hybrid]

Well I comend you. :) It's good to try new things even if they don't stick. As the saying goes "never try, you'll never know".
Is this list in order?
yes in that order.

If so do you mind me asking how many years it took altogether to get from catholic and nominal, to Atheist ITNOG?

a lifetime.

[Celtaine]

Good answer ;)

[Greenslade]

I get the feeling there is a terrible miscommunication going on between us and I am not understanding why.

Do you think I am Christian?

Do you think I am not familiar with the history of Christmas and Christianity?

"I'm fed up with the whole argument of this religion versus that religion and until such time as someone bans religion (which I don't agree with) or until religions start talking to each other as adults it's always going to be there. I don't have a problem with any religion, what I have a problem with is what people use it for."

Right here, I couldn't agree with you more. For me I have taken this frustration to a point where I am more than just the person standing in the median criticizing all that is wrong with the world. Instead I try to encourage others to see what I have seen my whole life. That we aren't so much different as we are the same. Trust me in my case it is an uphill battle, as I was raised in a home that taught every kind of self importance, those who are closest to me will never see what I see.

Why is it you presume I don't understand the motivations behind his actions?

Without knowing him personally one can't assume to know his back history with religion to know why he has such a distaste for it. But you don't need to know the back story to know the difference between right and wrong.

As I have stated I see this as an "Eye for an Eye" maneuver on his part.

I am not going to dispute with you your idea of what constitutes enlightened. I don't assume I am or claim to be such. Nor do I believe 99% of the people who do, have any clue what enlightenment is. So I am not sure where you get that from. I think I would be best defined as a critical observer and a cheerleader of sorts. Trying to empathize for one mans blatant disregard for the beliefs of others is not a valuable investment of my time.

Regardless, :hug2:


Unless you call spleen-venting communication, 002 Cents lol. From the snapshot of what I see of you in these forums, many of your views and beliefs are not so far apart from mine being honest. Perhaps the only major difference is you uphill battle, whereas I just wave my arm at it all and let people get on with it. People are going to think and believe what they want, it has been long since I stopped trying to change people's beliefs, I just state my case and have done with it. Laissez-faire works for me.

Billboard guy coming in from an anti-Christian standpoint won't endear him to many people I don't think, unless he wants to attract anti-Christian people. He's not the kind of guy I would like to have a friendly beer with anyway, although on saying that it might be interesting just the same. While I don't agree with his methods what I'd rather do is try and understand his reasoning behind them. Everyone can justify their own actions using the right words, and to him perhaps he's doing the right thing. Other than that, it's not for me to judge whether he's right or wrong.

I don't find the religion so interesting in itself, I prefer to look at the people themselves - which is why the Mary Magdalene texts caught my attention. It's as though there was a story of real people and not puppets for the metaphor as some of the Bible characters come across as.

Perhaps Atheism is becoming a religion and perhaps it already is. From what I can see it's an opportunity to observe, because there could well be the story of so many other religions and how they formed. Yes, the core beliefs might be different but I often wonder how many of the same old attitudes are still here 2,000 years on. I did a little digging into Christian history and before the Council of Nycea there were any number of sects, did these sects separate themselves by decrying another sect? Do the different 'flavours' of Christianity talk to each other? It makes me wonder if all we are seeing is history repeating itself over and over again.

Oh, by the way. I can't seem to find the shotgun icon.

[002 Cents]

I'm good with that.

Don't know if you ever watched this but it is a truly informative 4 hour history of Christianity.

It's 2 parts and I am hoping you can access them both from this page if you are interested. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fwgbh%2Fp ages%2Ffrontline%2Fshows%2Freligion%2F)

Covers the different sects and how they were whittled down to just the Orthodox which spawned the faith as we know it today. From what I can tell Orthodox wanted to dominate the faith and were able to do so with the aid of Constantine. Much was omitted from the final text, the "Bible" as we know it. Mary's gospel was belonging to the Gnostic branch of Christianity as was the Gospel of Thomas. Another interesting read.

Not getting the shotgun blurb... unless you just don't like hugging smileys... :dontknow:

[Greenslade]

Sorry 002 Cents, the shotgun reference wasn't aimed at you :-) Sometimes I want to use a metaphorical one on some of the people in these here hallowed forums, but no doubt the moderators would frown on it. :hug3:

I believe that if you take the candy floss from around religion, none of them are so far apart after all. A rose by any other name, etc? At this time of year, the message is the same no matter if you're Christian or Pagan. Most Pagan religions all say the same about this time of year, the darkest day being the turning point to lighter days and more sunshine - Hope springs eternal and all that. Christian beliefs are not too far behind, but then they wouldn't be. Mind you, in all of these Atheist versus Christian discussions I have never seen anything that says that Atheists could well be doing God's work after all, that didn't seem to occur to people. Looking behind the mask, perhaps billboard guy is doing some good after all because both Atheists and Christians are up in arms about it. Not many people seemed to pick up on that one. Perhaps behind the shock and horror there's something else worth looking at?

Thanks, I'll take a bimble through the link and see what's there. I tend to dib and dab all over the place when it comes to this kind of stuff. Have a look at http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/genesis.php What they're doing is taking a different slant on the Biblical Genesis by looking at a more direct translation. The first line at the very top of the page captures my imagination - ". . . and the ruah of the Shining Ones hovered over its waters ". The Shining/Golden Ones crop up all over the place in history.

[iolite]

I personally think that atheism provides needed balance against the extreme fundamentalists.

[Greenslade]

I personally think that atheism provides needed balance against the extreme fundamentalists.

Perhaps there are already extreme fundamentalist Atheists already waiting in the wings. It's never religion that's the problem but what people do with it.

[002 Cents]

Looking behind the mask, perhaps billboard guy is doing some good after all because both Atheists and Christians are up in arms about it. Not many people seemed to pick up on that one. Perhaps behind the shock and horror there's something else worth looking at?

See this is why I like conversing with you so much cause every now and again you have this brilliant little bit that I had not considered myself.

Sorry I had to lol at the "Atheists doing God's work". The irony of the concept cracks me up.

Thanks for the link.

[Greenslade]

See this is why I like conversing with you so much cause every now and again you have this brilliant little bit that I had not considered myself.

Sorry I had to lol at the "Atheists doing God's work". The irony of the concept cracks me up.

Thanks for the link.


More than welcome, and if it brought a smile to your face even better :-)

It's been said that once upon a time there was a single Consciousness in the Universe, all alone in the night. Then one day that Consciousness did something that changed the Universe forever. It asked the question - Who Am I? In order to answer that question it split itself into two so that it could look at itself. Whether that's true or a metaphor I don't know because I wasn't there at the time, but it makes so much sense. Everything in this Life - including these forums - is about I Am and I am Not. I Am not one to take offence as I believe it is as bad to take offence as it is to give it. Paradoxically I Am someone who doesn't see things as black and white in this Universe but as shades of grey. While I'm still human I seek that place beyond right and wrong, beyond judgement. I Am someone who tries to look behind the mask of what's in front of my face while still very much aware that I'm in Plato's Allegory of the Cave.

What has all that to do with the billboards? Everything. What I see is two diverse religions (if Atheism in this case is classed as religion but the jury is still out on that one) doing what they believe in is right for them. Being honest, if it came to court it would be an interesting case because while there is evidence to support Christianity and its beliefs there's just as much to support the Atheist case on this one. If it came down to the Truth about Christmas then my money is with the Pagans here. While there's historical evidence around Christianity to be what it purports to be, there's also enough to say it isn't. Coming down the the core, the original belief system in that area came from the Sumerians and everything that came after - including Christianity - is a variation of that theme. Like it or not religion is based on beliefs and not facts, and there aren't enough facts to state a solid case either way. I Am someone who gets past his indignation and offence and tries to see the reasons behind what is really going on here. I can also see reasoning on both sides and none of them have the right to take any moral high ground.

[Fresco]

Atheism is definitely becoming more popular, thats for sure. Especially militant atheism!
I almost get the feeling guys like Hitchens and Dawkins wont be happy till Christianity (and its followers) has been entirely removed from earth.

Its kinda funny since most atheists are Liberals, and Libs tend to pride themselves on their tolerance :D :rolleyes:

[Chrysaetos]

Its kinda funny since most atheists are Liberals, and Libs tend to pride themselves on their tolerance :D :rolleyes: Tolerance is not the same as moral nihilism.
And Dawkins does a good job for showing the bad sides of religion, Hitchens is just a douchebag.

[Greenslade]

Moral nihilism? Where did that come from? While I'm an Atheist I can't talk for all Atheists, but moral nihilism doesn't even get a look in for me.

[Mabuz Luciferi]

Religion requires a belief and worship of entities.

Atheism rejects religion, worship, faith and the idea of entities.

At best Atheism could be a dogma.

[Greenslade]

It doesn't really matter what the belief system is, it can turn into something akin to a religion. Atheists will get together and pretty soon there will be all the trappings of a religion.

[psychoslice]

I don't think they could do as bad as most other religion have done.

[SeaZen]

Religion requires a belief and worship of entities.

Atheism rejects religion, worship, faith and the idea of entities.

At best Atheism could be a dogma.

This is incorrect. In order for something to be classified as a religion does not require a belief and worship of entities even though some specific religions may. According to the 2nd definition below, atheism and communism can qualify as they definitely have a specific set of fundamental beliefs (you cease to exist when die etc.) as can Monadic Luciferianism. That is why I prefer to not identify or adhere to a specific philosophy or set of beliefs that are labelled such as atheist, islamist etc.

re·li·gion   
[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

[Chrysaetos]

This is incorrect. In order for something to be classified as a religion does not require a belief and worship of entities even though some specific religions may. There is no universal definition of religion/religious. But a belief in some supernatural entity is the closest you can get,
in which case atheism is not a religion (if we, at least, go by the idea of deities).

[Greenslade]

Call it a cult, call it a religion. It doesn't really matter what label you give it the process is pretty close to the same thing over and over. It's all about people who pin their hopes on something/someone other than themselves.

[Perinelle]

I wouldn't call it a religion because they are against religion, right? They don't have any real rules, beliefs, or a central religious book/leader. They believe in not believing in religion. So I would call Atheism more of an organization or a philosophy...

[Fresco]

I wouldn't call it a religion because they are against religion, right? They don't have any real rules, beliefs, or a central religious book/leader
Yes they do, his name is Hitchens. And his right-hand man is Dawkins.

And even though Hitchens has the whole evolution thing figured out, and how life became abundant on earth, he cant cure a simple DNA mutation thats happening inside his body.

Sorry if that sounds mean, but its the truth

[Chrysaetos]

Yes they do, his name is Hitchens. And his right-hand man is Dawkins.
And even though Hitchens has the whole evolution thing figured out, and how life became abundant on earth, he cant cure a simple DNA mutation thats happening inside his body.
Sorry if that sounds mean, but its the truthHow does that relate to Perinelle's post? Perinelle said that atheists don't follow any real rules, beliefs, and/or central religious books and leaders.
To that, you say ''yes they do''. But for a starters, I know atheists who never heard about Hitchens and Dawkins.

There's only one thing all atheists have in common: they don't believe in deities.

[Silver]

They believe in not believing in religion.

...so, we can't not believe in something...

[ThoughtOnFire]

One thing that I find particularly interesting about Atheism is the image of the God that they disbelieve in. They think of "God" as the Archetypal "Sky Daddy", who is sitting on a throne made of clouds and has a big white beard just like Santa Claus. Now, if that is "God", then call me an Atheist. And if that's "God", then you probably are an Atheist as well. Next, I find that many Atheists will agree that Nature and the Universe is 1) Amazing 2) Mysterious 3) Higher Order 4) Etc. 5) Etc.

You see they are just too stubborn to redefine and revise their imagination of what "God" could and could not be. They are unwilling to question deeper. And so they reject some Fantastical Idea of God that nobody since the Dark Ages believes in, anyway.

ATHEIST!!! /watch?v=d0A4_bwCaX0

[Greenslade]

You see they are just too stubborn to redefine and revise their imagination of what "God" could and could not be. They are unwilling to question deeper. And so they reject some Fantastical Idea of God that nobody since the Dark Ages believes in, anyway.

ATHEIST!!! /watch?v=d0A4_bwCaX0

Religious people can be like that as well.

[ThoughtOnFire]

Religious people can be like that as well.

That's true, yes they can.

[Chrysaetos]

One thing that I find particularly interesting about Atheism is the image of the God that they disbelieve in. They think of "God" as the Archetypal "Sky Daddy", who is sitting on a throne made of clouds and has a big white beard just like Santa Claus. Now, if that is "God", then call me an Atheist. And if that's "God", then you probably are an Atheist as well. I don't believe in the skydaddy deities, but any other kind of god definition is to be questioned as well.Next, I find that many Atheists will agree that Nature and the Universe is 1) Amazing 2) Mysterious 3) Higher Order 4) Etc. 5) Etc.I think most atheists would agree with that, except for nr. 3.
You see they are just too stubborn to redefine and revise their imagination of what "God" could and could not be. They are unwilling to question deeper. And so they reject some Fantastical Idea of God that nobody since the Dark Ages believes in, anyway.ATHEIST!!! /watch?v=d0A4_bwCaX0But what is your idea or definition of ''God''..?

[ThoughtOnFire]

But what is your idea or definition of ''God''..?

I haven't defined God. I do believe in God. But beyond the known Universe I cannot define God. Maybe God is one way, Maybe God is another way, I simply don't know. Maybe God is Brahma the Universal Man. Where each day of Brahma opens his eyes and the Universe is born, (big bang), and each night of Brahma closes his eyes and the Universe is destroyed, (big crunch). Maybe, maybe not. I do believe in God, I just simply don't know everything there is to know about God.