Question about being in the now vs hope

[Antheia]

Hi there all

I was watching Out of Africa on the weekend and the Robert Redford character said something that raised a question for me. He was talking about the Masai and saying that if you put them in jail, they die. And then went on to explain that it is because they live totally in the now. There is no past and no future. They cannot conceive of a future where they are let out and things are better again and therefore they die.

Now, whether this is actually true or not - it did make me think. Being in the now is taught by all the spiritual teachers out there, but if your now is horrible, then not being able to aspire to things changing somewhere along the line is very demotivating. If it is 'this is all there is' and you cannot see even the possibility of change, then it becomes bleak and depressive. And if you can see the possibility of change, then you are not fully accepting the moment.

Any thoughts on this?

[Baile]

Hi SadFlower. It seems to me you're getting ahead of yourself from a logic perspective at least. If I perceive my life as misery, I am not living in the moment. I am living in the past: thinking about how miserable my life has been. And I am living in the future: comparing my life now to the happiness that could and might be. To live in the moment would be to experience this moment, only. This moment does not contain anything bad - that's all in the past. And it doesn't contain expectations for the future, one is living in perfect alignment with the present and that's enough. The hope question is another, different aspect; it's a very good question, and I have my own experiential views on that. But I'll let you reply first.

[God-Like]

The 'now moment' contains wherever one's attention is at .

The now moment is also where one's attention isn't at .

It is the sum of what is happening on a multitude of levels .

The man who's head and heart is in the past or in the future is 'now' in the past and is 'now' in the future .

What one is aware of 'now' can be looked at, frowned upon, blessed, worked through etc ..

The now moment is wherever the wind blows .


x daz x

[Antheia]

Mmm, Baile, that is an interesting thought. There are times, though, when the now is clearly not what is wanted. Let's say, for example, you are in pain in the now. You can make peace to some extent with that pain, but only if you can conceive of it ending.

[Antheia]

That is lovely, God-Like!

[Baile]

There are times, though, when the now is clearly not what is wanted. Let's say, for example, you are in pain in the now. You can make peace to some extent with that pain, but only if you can conceive of it ending.Not what is wanted... conceive of it ending... All of the above is an example of living in anything other than the moment and NOW of life.
Hope has to do with the future, yes. But it is not longing for change, which takes one out of the moment.
Hope is the faith-catalyst that allows one to relax into the benevolent, perfectness of the NOW of life.

My life is misery and I live in hopelessness.
This is not the life that I want, I want it to end.

Versus

I live in this moment which is eternally full of hope and possibility.
This is my life, and this is how it has unfolded up until now.

[Antheia]

Hi again Baile

I think I sort of get the difference, but I am still not clear on how you are defining hope if you say "this moment, which is eternally full of hope and possibility", because hope implies that the next moment will not be the same as the one you are currently in. Possibility also requires that you are able to see beyond the now that you are in to the 'possibility' that it can be different.

So, the Masai in my original question dies because he is unable to see the possibility of change. In order to be at peace in the now that he does not want, he needs the ability to conceive of a future that is not the same as the one he is in. There has to be hope and possibility, which brings me back to the question, how can you have hope if you are not looking to the possibility of a change in what you are currently experiencing.

[silent whisper]

Hi there all

I was watching Out of Africa on the weekend and the Robert Redford character said something that raised a question for me. He was talking about the Masai and saying that if you put them in jail, they die. And then went on to explain that it is because they live totally in the now. There is no past and no future. They cannot conceive of a future where they are let out and things are better again and therefore they die.

Now, whether this is actually true or not - it did make me think. Being in the now is taught by all the spiritual teachers out there, but if your now is horrible, then not being able to aspire to things changing somewhere along the line is very demotivating. If it is 'this is all there is' and you cannot see even the possibility of change, then it becomes bleak and depressive. And if you can see the possibility of change, then you are not fully accepting the moment.

Any thoughts on this?


Within the moment of now is living in acceptance of what is.

With knowing that with what is in that moment of now, anything is possible. And the now can manifest change both in feeling, awareness and clarity of view...

When your present and in the now it simply means your present with what is as it is. What you feel, what you express, what you perceive in the future, past or anything really. It is what it is, inclusive of all in the now moment..

[Lorelyen]

Hello there SadFlower,

My first reaction is that you shouldn't always believe what you hear/see on movies but what does strike you about them is always worth considering. True, the time is always "now" but animal life has been blessed with memory (of facts and events, and experiences) and prescience (or at least the ability to plan) so it's natural to think along a time line.
Hi there all

I was watching Out of Africa on the weekend and the Robert Redford character said something that raised a question for me. He was talking about the Masai and saying that if you put them in jail, they die. And then went on to explain that it is because they live totally in the now. There is no past and no future. They cannot conceive of a future where they are let out and things are better again and therefore they die.

= = = = = = = = =
Now, whether this is actually true or not - it did make me think. Being in the now is taught by all the spiritual teachers out there, but if your now is horrible, then not being able to aspire to things changing somewhere along the line is very demotivating. If it is 'this is all there is' and you cannot see even the possibility of change, then it becomes bleak and depressive. And if you can see the possibility of change, then you are not fully accepting the moment.

Any thoughts on this?

It would be glib to say that if your "now" is horrible, then that should be the motivation to make it better. (I have experience of the well of despair from my pre-teen years), but you can make small changes. You can decide that things will get better even if right now you can't think how. It's a start. But the paradox you speak of, your last sentence, is word play. Whether you accept the moment or not, you move forward either doing/being nothing new or you+your environment change things - perhaps just incrementally, perhaps in a big way.

Under depression it's difficult if not impossible to think of a way forward except that you hope something will happen to alleviate it. Perhaps it's better for some people to sit it through. Others may look around for something even slightly inspiring to latch on to. I suppose it's best to try not to let yourself fall into depression from despair of "the now" but try to catch onto anything that makes the person feel just a bit better.

We are facing winter. Being one of the S.A.D. crowd I hate winter and have to fight the sense of bleakness and cold it brings. Being able to sleep from November until the end of March would suit me fine.

♀

[Baile]

There has to be hope and possibility, which brings me back to the question, how can you have hope if you are not looking to the possibility of a change in what you are currently experiencing.Yes SadFlower, which is what I was pointing out with my comment, Hope has to do with the future... Hope is the faith-catalyst that allows one to relax into the benevolent, perfectness of the NOW of life.

For me, this isn't a difficult thing to conceptualize because I have made the inner connection to the knowledge that the universe is entirely benevolent. Our natural state is joy and wonder and love. I gravitate towards those ideals by creating them moment to moment in my life. I don't wait around to be joyful, I wake up in the morning and feel joy and love, and express joy and love in my exchanges with the people in my life.

Now of course life can always be better... I can strive to be a better person... and so I carry the understanding in my heart and soul that the universe will help me attain all that, in its proper time. I don't worry or chastise myself about being an incomplete person, or not being loving enough. I know that I am a loving person in this moment, and will be an even more loving and understanding person in a year from now. I am living in the NOW and accepting the NOW, while still focused on that which I hope to achieve in the future, and will achieve with help from the benevolent universe.

[froebellian]

I am guilty of thinking too much about the future rather than the now.

The 'now' determines the future in some respects and it is being in the present, and living that was once our future too.

Hope is having faith that things can be different, get better or turn out how we planned. It may not be exactly as we wish, but we acknowledge that things will be different. It is also realistic ( which I am a fan of) knowing our limitations, but also where we can become stronger.

When other parties (as in the film) are involved they play a part in the outcome. We do not always have to have external influences affecting our path (though perhaps subconsciously), but our actions may affect others.

Levels of hope fluctuate, but even if you don't want change, is that what you hope for?

[Antheia]

Wow, thank you all, the replies are great food for thought. Who would have thought that a throw-away comment from a movie could spark so much discussion! I am thinking of, for example, the difference between say Victor Frankl and this fictitious Masai warrior. Both are locked up and don't know if they will ever be free, but only one of them dies. I have heard the same thing said about the Bushmen in the Namib, that they die if they are locked up.

[kindigo]

I think the possibilities of change still lies in the present moment. When you are planning something, you are still planning it in the Now moment. When you want to change your situation, you are changing it in the Now moment.

The power of change is much powerful in the Now than changing from the past or future.

[Dwerg]

They cannot conceive of a better future, thus they die? I'm skeptical. For them to even see that there is no hope of better times they would have to assume their future will be like that forever. I think what is meant by being in the moment is to forget the past (with emphasis on negative experiences) and not worry about the future. I think time becomes an issue often because we realize that it's limited and inevitably we will all die, it shatters that happy naivety we had as children running around unconcerned and playing. It then brings a person down to an existential crisis and spirituality is often a solution. Also children who don't know about not being in the moment seem to not self-terminate if they are grounded, rather they become annoyed and seek ways out into freedom. I think all anyone have to do is to remember themselves in this state, that's finding the light.

[Antheia]

I think the possibilities of change still lies in the present moment. When you are planning something, you are still planning it in the Now moment. When you want to change your situation, you are changing it in the Now moment.

The power of change is much powerful in the Now than changing from the past or future.

That is true, but you are still looking at the Now moment and seeing it as not quite as what is wanted, you may accept it, but you are still moving towards something that you have conceived as being 'better'. Hope is still implied in that.

[Jyotir]

Hi SadFlower,

The efficacy of Hope is founded upon the essence of Reality which is Promise.

That is the secret of being in the 'now', and the transformation of any unsatisfying condition. It depends on what is focused on. Being aware of 'now' doesn't mean the complacent acceptance of ignorance - although it is a good first step, otherwise we would not be able to identify and work with what needs to change.

If this were not so, life would be an eternal stagnant frustration ruled by the primacy of ignorance, inertia and division. While that is the conditional starting point, and granted, progress often seems slow or even imperceptible - human beings are nevertheless blessed with the ability to progress by a self-conscious attention to a deliberate spiritual aspiration. Being in the now in the positive sense means paying attention to that sacred 'inner promise'.

Whether the Masai people know of this, or whether it is misleading folklore, etc., perhaps remains the purview of social psychologists or 'spiritual anthropologists' if they exist.

~ J

[Mr Interesting]

I think the Masai response to imprisonment might actually be a little more prosaic and more a conditioned response to life in the sense that they are absolutely used to be able to go out each day and forage and hunt and to imprison them doesn't mean they make a decision to lay down and die so much as see their ability to survive taken away so they do nothing... until things change. To accept food and water one hasn't caught or found would mean one is beyond hunting and old and then basically useless to survival and people often in this kind of natural situation accept a quick death to not put a burden on the others.

It is very easy then for a us to romanticize such difference, hold it loftier than what is actually just a way of life adapted to the physical circumstance of the environment.

As for the now, what need is there of hope? Hope defines that something isn't right or could be better. You either accept what is or go about changing it and hope is just a side order of accumulated energy to prompt one forward as if one isn't really interested in the change but with the hope on the side the difference between what is and what will be is somehow endured.

It takes time to acclimatise to the now and realise it's way of being is just so different... but it was kinda always there anyways. It widens out too, gets bigger as the old ways of defining drop away. I find that alot of things just don't need to be done, that I'm happy just with the potentials of them and then in an interesting kind of way stuff ends up getting done without input from me... it just doesn't require mastering.

[Antheia]

Thank you Jyotir and Mr Interesting for very interesting viewpoints. I am rereading many of these posts as they raise such interesting points, but need a bit of time to digest.

This bit was very interesting: "with the hope on the side the difference between what is and what will be is somehow endured" - I wonder, though, if this is not underlining that hope cannot be part of being in the now, but that without hope we may find enduring too challenging.

[nhrob]

All its needs is an eye for the truth and a heart to believe.

To those seeking the earthly path.

“IN THE PRESENTS OF WHERE I AM LIES THE BEAUTY
WITH IN”.

To those seeking the spiritual path

“HERE IN THE PRESENTS OF WHERE I AM IS WHO I AM”.

Being in the NOW is balance. Simple and Hard,Easy and Diffecault. So on and so on ........

[joyfirst]

I think we can always feel good, if we are truly in the moment, possibly with an exception of an ense physical pain. It is place without thoughts, and there is always something in our environment to enjoy. Let's say somebody is screaming, but their hair is wavy and soft and fun to look at.
Eckhart Tolle actually said -there is a beauty and aliveness even in the prison walls.
Being in the moment is also doesn't mean person is not able to think at all, it simply means one is able to experience life too, instead of just thinking about it and never actually living it.