Surrendering TO addiction?

[BurningBush]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about surrendering to a higher power or something like from a 12 step program, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever let themselves be fully overwhelmed by their addictions.

I guess there's a difference between, for example, caffeine and heroin, and the level of danger inherent in your addiction would dictate your behavior, but it seems that following it could allow you to break it and maybe learn something in the process. I definitely have a few addictions and I never fight them, but over time, I seem to be less addicted. I think it might be that I've slowly become immune to the payoff so that there's less reason to act out those behaviors. Thoughts?

[Mazulu]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about surrendering to a higher power or something like from a 12 step program, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever let themselves be fully overwhelmed by their addictions.

I guess there's a difference between, for example, caffeine and heroin, and the level of danger inherent in your addiction would dictate your behavior, but it seems that following it could allow you to break it and maybe learn something in the process. I definitely have a few addictions and I never fight them, but over time, I seem to be less addicted. I think it might be that I've slowly become immune to the payoff so that there's less reason to act out those behaviors. Thoughts?
Drink all the coffee you want. Stay away from heroin. If I were you, maybe you should surrender to a Higher Power. I wish you the best.

[Adept]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about surrendering to a higher power or something like from a 12 step program, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever let themselves be fully overwhelmed by their addictions.

I guess there's a difference between, for example, caffeine and heroin, and the level of danger inherent in your addiction would dictate your behavior, but it seems that following it could allow you to break it and maybe learn something in the process. I definitely have a few addictions and I never fight them, but over time, I seem to be less addicted. I think it might be that I've slowly become immune to the payoff so that there's less reason to act out those behaviors. Thoughts?

I was addicted to pain meds for 3 years. The more you give in the more you take, the more you take the more you overdose. Suffice to say when I felt addiction creeping hack after this last surgery I took control.

[Ivy]

There is a stage of addiction in which a person is in denial = they are fighting the reality that they are addicted. To surrender is to accept that that is what is there, an addiction.

To surrender further to the feelings is to accept the feeling of need and let yourself feel the pain of that need. It's in surrendering to the feelings, the emotions that are there, rather than to the object of addiction, that brings healing.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about surrendering to a higher power or something like from a 12 step program, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever let themselves be fully overwhelmed by their addictions.

I guess there's a difference between, for example, caffeine and heroin, and the level of danger inherent in your addiction would dictate your behavior, but it seems that following it could allow you to break it and maybe learn something in the process. I definitely have a few addictions and I never fight them, but over time, I seem to be less addicted. I think it might be that I've slowly become immune to the payoff so that there's less reason to act out those behaviors. Thoughts?

Maybe you weren't really addicted. Addiction, by my understanding , involves short-circuiting the decision making process that allows you to
"say no" .There are some newer studies that support the idea that willpower has more to do with saying no than 12-step approaches concede, but it has been shown that prolonged use in some people does effect changes in brain chemistry which do show up as the apparent inability to decide not to use.

Encouraging people to embrace their addiction isn't a good idea, because some % of people who actually are addicted are at risk of taking it over the edge and dying . To me, there's a difference between addiction and indulgence. True addiction is a destructive force in a person's life , and isn't something that's easy to control or stop , and it ruins their life and adversely affects the lives of people around them. When you're talking about drugs like meth, coke, heroin , or alcohol, or oxy , and you mean genuine addiction, people in these situations don't just stop when they feel bad , or just gradually become less addicted. It's not a casual thing that a person
regulates ; it's a dangerous force which kills . I know, because I almost died .
I don't treat the phenomenon, or the subject , lightly :smile:

That's the hard line , but it sounds to me like you're somewhere in the middle . More than a casual user, and less than a diehard drunk or drug addict . Ending up seeing diminishing payoff is a fortunate place to get ,because most people who are addicts and embrace their addiction lose the war, It's that simple, and the numbers are bad ;the odds are only 5%
in a person's favor.

My addictions were/are

food (anorexia/bulimia)
tobacco
alcohol
pot
caffiene

25 years without drugs, smokes , or booze .
1 year without caffiene, but I still eat food .

By the end of my boozing I was doing 1.5 liters of vodka every day ,
and almost croaked . I got there by embracing my addiction :icon_eek: :D
I kept living by un-embracing it :angel3:

those are some of my thoughts :hug3:

[silent whisper]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about surrendering to a higher power or something like from a 12 step program, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever let themselves be fully overwhelmed by their addictions.

I guess there's a difference between, for example, caffeine and heroin, and the level of danger inherent in your addiction would dictate your behavior, but it seems that following it could allow you to break it and maybe learn something in the process. I definitely have a few addictions and I never fight them, but over time, I seem to be less addicted. I think it might be that I've slowly become immune to the payoff so that there's less reason to act out those behaviors. Thoughts?

Well your journeying and self aware, so it would make sense that you would be less inclined for the pay off now. You have probably addressed a lot of the issues in the payoff over time without realization of what you were using to fill up the void... But those who are not addressing the payoff, I imagine might continue to stay in the addiction, suppress whatever it is they are maintaining through that addiction and might not find themselves journeying like you through them.

For those ones, there may come a saturation point anyway, which brings about self reflection and new direction, either way you do it, it makes no difference, its the way you need to do it.

[12meadows]

Dar, thank you for your post. While I have never had an addiction myself, I grew up around many. I think a lot of people use the word "addiction" to describe a lack of willpower (an excuse) - when in truth it is so much more. I commend you for being able to overcome and for sharing. Warm wishes :)

[LadyMay]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about surrendering to a higher power or something like from a 12 step program, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever let themselves be fully overwhelmed by their addictions.

I guess there's a difference between, for example, caffeine and heroin, and the level of danger inherent in your addiction would dictate your behavior, but it seems that following it could allow you to break it and maybe learn something in the process. I definitely have a few addictions and I never fight them, but over time, I seem to be less addicted. I think it might be that I've slowly become immune to the payoff so that there's less reason to act out those behaviors. Thoughts?

I was somewhat addicted to alcohol this time last year. I jumped into it, and that eventually made me less addicted too, but I wouldn't recommend it for everyone since it's playing with your health and those who have no control to begin with may just carry on even though the addiction has technically faded (talking of sever addicts).

Yeah it takes longer and longer to get the same effects. There's also the fact by immersing yourself into the experience it ceases to become a problem because you are 'owning' it. So eventually the behaviour becomes boring.

Yes, there's lot to be learned in our lowest moments. I always see these things as a lesson.

[LadyMay]

There is a stage of addiction in which a person is in denial = they are fighting the reality that they are addicted. To surrender is to accept that that is what is there, an addiction.

To surrender further to the feelings is to accept the feeling of need and let yourself feel the pain of that need. It's in surrendering to the feelings, the emotions that are there, rather than to the object of addiction, that brings healing.

Yes this is what I was trying to say. Perfectly put.

[Baile]

You drop addictions when you're ready, when your higher self takes over. Nothing more to it.
And no, intentionally surrendering to addictions isn't wise, it's just plain old avoidance. Is that bad? No, we do what we need to do in its proper time.

[12meadows]

Baile, I think you are absolutely correct :)

[BurningBush]

There is a stage of addiction in which a person is in denial = they are fighting the reality that they are addicted. To surrender is to accept that that is what is there, an addiction.

To surrender further to the feelings is to accept the feeling of need and let yourself feel the pain of that need. It's in surrendering to the feelings, the emotions that are there, rather than to the object of addiction, that brings healing.
I think that surrendering to the object gives you the chance to get close enough to those feelings to address them.

Encouraging people to embrace their addiction isn't a good idea, because some % of people who actually are addicted are at risk of taking it over the edge and dying . To me, there's a difference between addiction and indulgence. True addiction is a destructive force in a person's life , and isn't something that's easy to control or stop , and it ruins their life and adversely affects the lives of people around them. When you're talking about drugs like meth, coke, heroin , or alcohol, or oxy , and you mean genuine addiction, people in these situations don't just stop when they feel bad , or just gradually become less addicted. It's not a casual thing that a person
regulates ; it's a dangerous force which kills . I know, because I almost died .
I don't treat the phenomenon, or the subject , lightly :smile:
I look at at surrendering to addiction as a subset of just generally being honest with yourself and your actions could vary widely based on the type of addiction. I've felt a compulsion to jump in front of the morning train on more than one occasion, but I resisted because, in full honesty, I knew that my fear of dying outweighed the feelings of wanting to escape.

There are definitely addictions that are more serious and threatening, but I tend to look at it as a wider spectrum. There are probably many people addicted to sugar or caffeine or certain thought patterns, which effectively serve the same purpose of avoiding pain (really, I think that thought is the most basic and powerful addiction there is). The difference between that and hard drugs is a matter of degree in my opinion in that someone addicted to hard drugs is more willing to throw his or her life away.

Well your journeying and self aware, so it would make sense that you would be less inclined for the pay off now. You have probably addressed a lot of the issues in the payoff over time without realization of what you were using to fill up the void... But those who are not addressing the payoff, I imagine might continue to stay in the addiction, suppress whatever it is they are maintaining through that addiction and might not find themselves journeying like you through them.

For those ones, there may come a saturation point anyway, which brings about self reflection and new direction, either way you do it, it makes no difference, its the way you need to do it.
I agree that if you're not addressing the full cycle, you're going to remain stuck.

[Seawolf]

"say no" .There are some newer studies that support the idea that willpower has more to do with saying no than 12-step approaches concede, but it has been shown that prolonged use in some people does effect changes in brain chemistry which do show up as the apparent inability to decide not to use.

Which is basically who 12-step approaches are for, those who's addiction are at the level where they have no control. I used to be doubtful of this idea of powerlessness until I saw it first hand. Brain chemistry changes apparently and the addict has no control, which is why they often die from it, even when facing the very real threat of death towards the end doesn't bring any control.

Causing family members to suffer greatly, going to prison, losing job, family, home, etc, none of it brings any control to the advanced addict. Doctors and courts are quite familiar with this condition, as well as the poor families of the addict that have to suffer through it. It's such a horrible experience that there has to be support groups just for the people around the addict, like Al-anon, Ala-teen, and ACOA.

[Baile]

Baile, I think you are absolutely correct :)I've quit alcohol, rec drugs, smoking, coffee and food addiction in the past two decades. My higher self has always been responsible for that.

[Baile]

I think that surrendering to the object gives you the chance to get close enough to those feelings to address them.There's this new age belief that whatever we decide to do is best for us. That is correct. But it's often misrepresented as an excuse to avoid that which our higher self is telling us we in fact need to deal with. I'd say your comment above falls into the latter category. If one is addicted, it needs to be dealt with and healed. Surrendering to it is the exact opposite of that process. You don't surrender to the addiction, you surrender to the knowledge that your lower self isn't strong enough to deal on it's own, it requires help in the form of intervention of the higher self.

[Ivy]

I think that surrendering to the object gives you the chance to get close enough to those feelings to address them.

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by surrendering. Could you explain further please.

[BurningBush]

There's this new age belief that whatever we decide to do is best for us. That is correct. But it's often misrepresented as an excuse to avoid that which our higher self is telling us we in fact need to deal with. I'd say your comment above falls into the latter category. If one is addicted, it needs to be dealt with and healed. Surrendering to it is the exact opposite of that process. You don't surrender to the addiction, you surrender to the knowledge that your lower self isn't strong enough to deal on it's own, it requires help in the form of intervention of the higher self.
In terms of "spirituality," my only method, principle, or whatever you'd like to call it is to be honest with myself and I don't make the differentiation between higher or lower selves.

What I hope to achieve from this is a total certainty that everything that I think, do, etc. is a perfect reflection of who I most deeply am and when things come into conflict, for example, "I want to eat 5 cookies" versus "I shouldn't eat 5 cookies," I always choose whatever is more powerful in that moment and that can change at different times. If we were talking about something that could pose a more immediate threat to my life, I might surrender to the fear of doing it as the most powerful force.

If you don't do something only because you're afraid to do it, I wouldn't call than an ideal situation. I'm not saying that that's the case for you, but it might be something to think about. Personally, I'd rather live a short but free life than a long life in bondage to fear.

[Seawolf]

When a person is so far in their addiction that they can't stop, that's when surrender becomes important. The addiction always tells them, 'I can beat it this time', so it's stops them from giving up control and getting help. 12 step programs require the addict to face the reality of their situation, effectively surrendering to a higher power, which gives the addict a new perspective of honesty. They 'let go' of control, realizing they don't have it in the first place -- speaking of course of advanced addicts.

[BurningBush]

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by surrendering. Could you explain further please.
Specifically, I'm talking about acknowledging the reality of your experiences, including your desires, fears, etc.

I used a read a website that, among other things, talked about conquering fear and the advice was generally to just go out and do the thing. While I understand that following that advice could help a person to replace an idea about a situation being dangerous with an idea about it not being so dangerous, it's ultimately very limiting because it reinforces idea-based perception, which leads to a filtering of reality, including the reality of oneself.

To fully acknowledge a fear means to not do the thing that one is afraid of unless there is some other, more powerful influence. Fear can be broken through decision which makes it permanently disappear because the resulting fearlessness is independent of external circumstances.

[Baile]

If you don't do something only because you're afraid to do it, I wouldn't call than an ideal situation. I'm not saying that that's the case for you, but it might be something to think about. Personally, I'd rather live a short but free life than a long life in bondage to fear.So you seem to equating facing and dealing with one's additions as a form of fear. You're saying it's more courageous and freeing to accept one is addicted, and to just give into the addiction. New age anything goes spirituality is what that is, and what I said in my last post applies, even more so after reading that.

[BurningBush]

When a person is so far in their addiction that they can't stop, that's when surrender becomes important. The addiction always tells them, 'I can beat it this time', so it's stops them from giving up control and getting help. 12 step programs require the addict to face the reality of their situation, effectively surrendering to a higher power, which gives the addict a new perspective of honesty. They 'let go' of control, realizing they don't have it in the first place -- speaking of course of advanced addicts.
One thing that I should also mention is that in order for what I'm saying to "work," you have to be awakened to your inner sense of truth, which I think is probably exceedingly rare. I guess it also depends on what beliefs you have to begin with. For me, I had (and still have but to a lesser degree) the belief that I need to be financially successful and that belief came from my upbringing. That belief has kept me employed during the complete meltdown that's been the last three years of my life. If someone lacks an inner sense of truth or has nothing in place to encourage their survival, they might be in trouble.

Then again, they might know something that none of us do. All of you recovered for some reason, but maybe the ones that don't recover lack this desire. Maybe they know that there's no point in fighting to keep this fictional life going.

I remember reading about how Ramana Maharshi gave up trying to survive and was only kept alive through the care others. He's now regarded as one of the most well-respected spiritual teachers ever to have lived.

[BurningBush]

So you seem to equating facing and dealing with one's additions as a form of fear. You're saying it's more courageous and freeing to accept one is addicted, and to just give into the addiction. New age anything goes spirituality is what that is, and what I said in my last post applies, even more so after reading that.
I'm saying that it's up to the individual to decide what's fear and what's not, so sure, anything goes. I'm not sure what your particular brand of spirituality is but you're not going to escape the negative aspects of duality by only embracing one side. If you already know the answer before you ask the question, you might miss the full truth.

[pdizzle45]

Addictions that become overwhelming tend to become this way when we allow them to become a part of who we are. For example, although coffee is really not that bad of an addiction, many of us feel incomplete when we do not have our fix in the morning. The key is to recognize the feelings that are attached to whatever it is that we can't get control over.

[BurningBush]

Baile, would you be willing to consider the possibility that your life is totally meaningless, that you are an accident of atoms colliding at random in the universe, and that when you die, there will be no more Baile?

By no means am I saying that this is how it is, I'm just wondering you'd be able to consider that as a possibility?

[Ivy]

Specifically, I'm talking about acknowledging the reality of your experiences, including your desires, fears, etc.



That's pretty much what I said. And yes, by acknowledging the reality of ones experience and of the emotion felt for that, is helpful in letting go of addiction.

[Baile]

Baile, would you be willing to consider the possibility that your life is totally meaningless, that you are an accident of atoms colliding at random in the universe, and that when you die, there will be no more Baile?

By no means am I saying that this is how it is, I'm just wondering you'd be able to consider that as a possibility?No. Impossible for me to even consider that, understanding what I do about spirit.

[Baile]

I'm saying that it's up to the individual to decide what's fear and what's not, so sure, anything goes. I'm not sure what your particular brand of spirituality is but you're not going to escape the negative aspects of duality by only embracing one side. If you already know the answer before you ask the question, you might miss the full truth.Okay, that's fair enough. I'm simply saying that courage is facing one's additions, healing one's self, and becoming the higher self individual one truly is. Fear is giving in to addiction, because healing it would mean the individual no longer has that crutch. I'd say your assessment is exactly backwards.

We are terrified of our own brilliance and true self.

[BurningBush]

That's pretty much what I said. And yes, by acknowledging the reality of ones experience and of the emotion felt for that, is helpful in letting go of addiction.
Sorry, I might have gotten a little mixed up with who was saying what.

I certainly agree that you have to acknowledge the reality of the emotions that might underlie addiction, but I find that sometimes it takes some digging through the forces that keep those underlying emotions hidden. The forces that I'm talking about are the thoughts and desires of the addiction, which can have their own reality, e.g., "I need to eat this cookie." That's just my take.

[Baile]

e.g., "I need to eat this cookie."Then eat the blankety blank cookie!

And actually you're correct here: give in, eat five, eat the whole pack, eat a crateful. You'll be so sick of cookies you'll never want one again. Addiction healed.

[BurningBush]

No. Impossible for me to even consider that, understanding what I do about spirit.
What is it that you know about spirit?

Okay, that's fair enough. I'm simply saying that courage is facing one's additions, healing one's self, and becoming the higher self individual one truly is. Fear is giving in to addiction, because healing it would mean the individual no longer has that crutch. I'd say your assessment is exactly backwards.
That may very well be true, but if it is, you're talking about something that's so buried in my subconscious that I haven't gotten a glimpse of it yet. We might as well be talking what's going on in a galaxy far, far away.

I'm guessing that you made this determination through self-reflection. Are you 100% positive that I'm like you in regard to giving into addiction being an act of fear?

We are terrified of our own brilliance and true self.
Some people call that manic depression.

Just joshing you.

[Mazulu]

Baile, would you be willing to consider the possibility that your life is totally meaningless, that you are an accident of atoms colliding at random in the universe, and that when you die, there will be no more Baile?

By no means am I saying that this is how it is, I'm just wondering you'd be able to consider that as a possibility?

Life is not totally meaningless, that just the "I give up, it's too hard" attitude. God wants us to be strong, resourceful, wise and Holy. No slugs who give up when life gets hard. Go find your strength, your inner power, and prepare for war.

[Baile]

What is it that you know about spirit?

Are you 100% positive that I'm like you in regard to giving into addiction being an act of fear?

Just joshing you.These comments are all related to what I understand about spirit: don't take life too seriously; what's correct for me is not necessarily what's correct for you (from a relative versus absolute perspective anyway); and live your truths. I don't ever wonder if I'm 100% positive. All I do is practice awareness of that which I know and understand right now, in this moment, and live that truth.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I was somewhat addicted to alcohol this time last year. I jumped into it, and that eventually made me less addicted too, but I wouldn't recommend it for everyone since it's playing with your health and those who have no control to begin with may just carry on even though the addiction has technically faded (talking of sever addicts).

Yeah it takes longer and longer to get the same effects. There's also the fact by immersing yourself into the experience it ceases to become a problem because you are 'owning' it. So eventually the behaviour becomes boring.

Yes, there's lot to be learned in our lowest moments. I always see these things as a lesson.

My take is that that's how it works for more casual users , people I wouldn't really call addicted . Or for people who have got it together well enough emotionally and with life, 'spiritually' that they don't need the drugs. When you have a life that's good and fulfilling you're less likel;y to want what drugs and booze offer. BUT , if a person is less together , and more of an 'addictive personality' , addiction doesn't care how good your life is, it won't let you go easily. You don't care how good your life is; you won't let it go easily.

Long term use alters brain chemistry; addicted brains don't produce enough natural derotonoin and dopamine, so people crave it fro outside sources . Coupled with impaired decision making ability , it is a recipe (that works quite well) for continued substance abuse . I don't have numbers , but most real addicts don't get better by themselves, they get worse . That's the reality for most addicts and alcoholics .

Me , I never got better until one day I accidentally didn't drink enough , then I went into DT's, went to jail and then a padded cell, then rehab for 5 weeks. Before that I went from drinking every night to drinking all day, in a steady downward spiral . I was headed for death , but I jumped on board what I saw as my only way out (rehab) and learned about addiction , and how to not surrender to it . For real addicts , surrendering to addiction is like running head on into a tornado ; chances are overwhelmingly in favor of the tornado :D

[Baile]

God wants us to be strong, resourceful, wise and Holy. No slugs who give up when life gets hard. Go find your strength, your inner power, and prepare for war.A slug who gives up is still a brilliant being and eternal soul, just one who isn't ready to let go of their addiction or what have you. I'd say God is much more interested in having us cultivate that loving view of ourselves than in having us prepare for war.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

You drop addictions when you're ready, when your higher self takes over. Nothing more to it.
And no, intentionally surrendering to addictions isn't wise, it's just plain old avoidance. Is that bad? No, we do what we need to do in its proper time.
There's some physiology and psychology involved . I would say that when an addicted person is ready for their higher spirit to take over , it allows the mind and body to go through the dramatic and substantial canges that are needed . Bodies can die when they just up and stop using , and it takes a bit of work to replace old realities with new ones .

I would say there are some details involved , and not everyone who gets sober does so because their higher self takes over . Having that happen makes the transformation much smoother , I can attest to that from personal experience, but even with that , there was mopping up to do , because the old life had left quite a mess :icon_eek: :D .

That's what I think.

[Baile]

There's some physiology and psychology involved .I would say that what many call coming to a psychological understanding is really just one's higher-self awareness kicking in.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

There's this new age belief that whatever we decide to do is best for us. That is correct. But it's often misrepresented as an excuse to avoid that which our higher self is telling us we in fact need to deal with. I'd say your comment above falls into the latter category. If one is addicted, it needs to be dealt with and healed. Surrendering to it is the exact opposite of that process. You don't surrender to the addiction, you surrender to the knowledge that your lower self isn't strong enough to deal on it's own, it requires help in the form of intervention of the higher self.

Totally agree . recovery is about dealing with what made one want to escape life with drugs in the first place. First thing they said in treatment was
"Drinking is the symptom ; we're going to address the disease here" .

There are some new approaches I've heard a little bit about , that take a different tack than surrendering to an higher power , and the success rate is about the same as AA : 5% :icon_eek: . Some people get sober without a spiritual transformation , but all I wanted was one. It's part of why I drank so much for so long, because I wasn't having the real one . Then one day I went to the place between worlds (delerium tremens; not a nice place to visit) , came back here and said "oh **** , I need to clean up, because if I die like this, it won't be pretty on the other side " . The ball was already rolling at that point , though I didn't understand until later that summer (1988) .

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I would say that what many call coming to a psychological understanding is really just one's higher-self awareness kicking in.
Yeah, that's what it looks like from this side :wink:
I have been working in this thread upwards from the bottom , from the perspective of being trapped in addiction and somewhat miraculously
(though not without some devilish details ) escaping it's clutches.

From the top end , it was death of who I used to be and rebirth as a different sort of being ; one without the burden of the miserable old , tormented self . One with a newfound connection and clarity .

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Then eat the blankety blank cookie!

And actually you're correct here: give in, eat five, eat the whole pack, eat a crateful. You'll be so sick of cookies you'll never want one again. Addiction healed.

Funny story :


Actually , that worked for me with creme-filled cookies and Creme de Menth liqueur :D . I was 13 , and gorged on cookies and CdM , and I got SO disgutingly sick , I never ate those cookies or that liqueur again in my life ! :D

I did go on to become a raging alcoholic and bulimic though, so I'm not sure how well aversion therapy really works, overall :wink: :tongue: maybe not that well :cool:

[BurningBush]

Life is not totally meaningless, that just the "I give up, it's too hard" attitude. God wants us to be strong, resourceful, wise and Holy. No slugs who give up when life gets hard. Go find your strength, your inner power, and prepare for war.
I used to pray all the time and God, more or less, slowly disappeared. Where you at, God?

[Ivy]

Sorry, I might have gotten a little mixed up with who was saying what.

I certainly agree that you have to acknowledge the reality of the emotions that might underlie addiction, but I find that sometimes it takes some digging through the forces that keep those underlying emotions hidden. The forces that I'm talking about are the thoughts and desires of the addiction, which can have their own reality, e.g., "I need to eat this cookie." That's just my take.

That's fair enough. But from my perspective it seems to misunderstand what addiction is. Have you ever been addicted to something?

[LadyMay]

My take is that that's how it works for more casual users , people I wouldn't really call addicted . Or for people who have got it together well enough emotionally and with life, 'spiritually' that they don't need the drugs. When you have a life that's good and fulfilling you're less likel;y to want what drugs and booze offer. BUT , if a person is less together , and more of an 'addictive personality' , addiction doesn't care how good your life is, it won't let you go easily. You don't care how good your life is; you won't let it go easily.

Long term use alters brain chemistry; addicted brains don't produce enough natural derotonoin and dopamine, so people crave it fro outside sources . Coupled with impaired decision making ability , it is a recipe (that works quite well) for continued substance abuse . I don't have numbers , but most real addicts don't get better by themselves, they get worse . That's the reality for most addicts and alcoholics .

Me , I never got better until one day I accidentally didn't drink enough , then I went into DT's, went to jail and then a padded cell, then rehab for 5 weeks. Before that I went from drinking every night to drinking all day, in a steady downward spiral . I was headed for death , but I jumped on board what I saw as my only way out (rehab) and learned about addiction , and how to not surrender to it . For real addicts , surrendering to addiction is like running head on into a tornado ; chances are overwhelmingly in favor of the tornado :D

Yeah that's why I didn't recommend that approach for more severe cases- I mean I wasn't in a good place this time last year and I turned to alcohol but it wasn't severe in that sense. It could've been- but when I started getting negative affects (anxiety attacks, ect) I had enough control left to stop. With severe cases they probably would carry on for the reasons you suggested and probably more. So it's not an answer- but I still think that often addicts will need to reach the bottom before they realize that they need to own the emotions behind the addiction in order to heal and get better.

I actually have to agree with Baile that for me the only reason I didn't get that low was because my Higher Self stepped in. During my awakening I became aware to how it was affecting me and afterwards the habit just suddenly stopped completely. I went from addicted to now not having drank in months. But I get many don't have that option. Many have to learn the hard way- like it sounds you did. But you surrendered to your emotions driving the behaviour and not the addiction itself- and that's what matters. Dealing with the root and not the symptoms. Less chance of the tornado effect then haha.

[BurningBush]

That's fair enough. But from my perspective it seems to misunderstand what addiction is. Have you ever been addicted to something?
Like I said, I have a much broader definition of addiction than some others here and I would say I have several addictions right now.

None of my additions would kill me immediately, but seemingly all have a negative effect on me. One example is that I eat very poorly and specifically eat a lot of sugar. I've known that this was a problem for a while and undoubtedly it has a negative effect on me (although it's sometimes hard to differentiate this from other Kundalini-like symptoms). Despite me knowing that my eating habits negatively affect the way I feel on a daily basis, I've continued to eat poorly for years. Would you call that an addiction?

However, I know that I could eat better at any given point, but, despite the fact that I feel like ****, I don't see a reason for doing so. Also, generally, I want my body to lead the way and not my mind and the force within me that leads me to eating poorly seems more fundamental than the force that would prevent me from doing so. My body will figure it out in time and I've seen evidence of this, albeit in a very slow fashion.

[Seawolf]

and the success rate is about the same as AA : 5% :icon_eek:
I wonder how that percentage is determined since it's anonymous in the first place. If you counted all the people forced to go to AA from the courts, I guess it would look pretty bleak. But the people bad off enough off that they're desperate and choose to follow without being forced probably have a better chance.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Like I said, I have a much broader definition of addiction than some others here and I would say I have several addictions right now.

None of my additions would kill me immediately, but seemingly all have a negative effect on me. One example is that I eat very poorly and specifically eat a lot of sugar. I've known that this was a problem for a while and undoubtedly it has a negative effect on me (although it's sometimes hard to differentiate this from other Kundalini-like symptoms). Despite me knowing that my eating habits negatively affect the way I feel on a daily basis, I've continued to eat poorly for years. Would you call that an addiction?

However, I know that I could eat better at any given point, but, despite the fact that I feel like ****, I don't see a reason for doing so. Also, generally, I want my body to lead the way and not my mind and the force within me that leads me to eating poorly seems more fundamental than the force that would prevent me from doing so. My body will figure it out in time and I've seen evidence of this, albeit in a very slow fashion.

That sounds reasonable , with the distinction that some of your behavior may just be lack of self-control. Arguably, that's a contributing factorin addictive behavior , so it's hard to draw clear lines defining all the components.

I tend to do things until they stop working or work against me to the point that I need to do something . I quit all main self-destructive activities a long time ago, but it's taken another 25 years to finally get the food thing 'right' ; eating great, instead of just 'okay'. But getting obsessed with doing everything 'right' can be another form of addiction .

I really do understand about 'the force inside' that is like a hunger for certain things . I was really bad when I was young, eating garbage, drinking and using drugs, bingeing and purging. It was an insatiable appetite and I fully indulged it because I couldn't seem to stop and I wasn't at peace inside . I have considered that going almost all the way , praying for something to cure the bulimia, and that thing being alcohol , and then that almost killing me, living that hell for 15 years effectively got it out of my system .

I also consider that the bigger picture involves what Baile and I were just going over , that some kind of big 'spiritual' transformation is what 'it's really all about' . The evolution away from the illusion of us as our little selves can be a painful, extended process , and especially so when we're
attached and addicted to the things of this world and must let go of the attachments and addictions . It can get ugly :smile:

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I wonder how that percentage is determined since it's anonymous in the first place. If you counted all the people forced to go to AA from the courts, I guess it would look pretty bleak. But the people bad off enough off that they're desperate and choose to follow without being forced probably have a better chance.

I've heard "5%" a few places . 'Penn & Teller - Bullspit' , in treatment , and from an addiction specialist (M.D.) , but yeah, you do have to wonder
exactly who they're talking about and how they get that number.

[Ivy]

Like I said, I have a much broader definition of addiction than some others here and I would say I have several addictions right now.

None of my additions would kill me immediately, but seemingly all have a negative effect on me. One example is that I eat very poorly and specifically eat a lot of sugar. I've known that this was a problem for a while and undoubtedly it has a negative effect on me (although it's sometimes hard to differentiate this from other Kundalini-like symptoms). Despite me knowing that my eating habits negatively affect the way I feel on a daily basis, I've continued to eat poorly for years. Would you call that an addiction?

However, I know that I could eat better at any given point, but, despite the fact that I feel like ****, I don't see a reason for doing so. Also, generally, I want my body to lead the way and not my mind and the force within me that leads me to eating poorly seems more fundamental than the force that would prevent me from doing so. My body will figure it out in time and I've seen evidence of this, albeit in a very slow fashion.

the substance is still something fulfilling an emotional need though - as soon as you abstain from the substance, the emotions and need is apparent.

That is the basics of addiction. Understanding the need and either letting it go if no longer needed, or learning new ways to meet that requirement. That is the core of many addiction programs. And similarly, the ethos of the serenity prayer, is a core element of spiritual development for many people.

I just don't understand what is being said here that is different. it just seems different words for the same common healing.

[silent whisper]

Like I said, I have a much broader definition of addiction than some others here and I would say I have several addictions right now.

None of my additions would kill me immediately, but seemingly all have a negative effect on me. One example is that I eat very poorly and specifically eat a lot of sugar. I've known that this was a problem for a while and undoubtedly it has a negative effect on me (although it's sometimes hard to differentiate this from other Kundalini-like symptoms). Despite me knowing that my eating habits negatively affect the way I feel on a daily basis, I've continued to eat poorly for years. Would you call that an addiction?

However, I know that I could eat better at any given point, but, despite the fact that I feel like ****, I don't see a reason for doing so. Also, generally, I want my body to lead the way and not my mind and the force within me that leads me to eating poorly seems more fundamental than the force that would prevent me from doing so. My body will figure it out in time and I've seen evidence of this, albeit in a very slow fashion.


Well sometimes the wake up calls come for all levels.

With knowing of what one is creating for themselves the unknown of what that is doing can awaken at any time too..

With the amount of knowing you have about your physical body, I wonder if your toying with a wake up call when their is no need for it.

I get that your just flowing along as things are with awareness of yourself and I have seen people change over time as I have done myself, slowly through the natural cycles of change that often arise naturally.

But then spirit began sending me wakeup calls about the nature of the physical body and taking care of myself. It really opened my view into a new realization of my life and health and long term view. Especially if you are here for a long time. Your level of self care will be heightened in ways to get you to build a physical body that will sustain you for your own longevity.

There are points where if you let things go to far it can take you a long time to bring them back into balance. It can also create many unnecessary issues with your body all because you are not aligning the *take action* with your awareness as one...

I know people who have done what your doing and ended up with more physical issues than they ever imagined they would have to deal with. And they too were aware of themselves over the whole process..

But regardless of my view, its your choice and journey to be and do it your way.

[pdizzle45]

the substance is still something fulfilling an emotional need though - as soon as you abstain from the substance, the emotions and need is apparent.

That is the basics of addiction. Understanding the need and either letting it go if no longer needed, or learning new ways to meet that requirement. That is the core of many addiction programs. And similarly, the ethos of the serenity prayer, is a core element of spiritual development for many people.

I just don't understand what is being said here that is different. it just seems different words for the same common healing.

This is great!

[BurningBush]

Now we're talking. Someone who knows where I'm coming from.
Well sometimes the wake up calls come for all levels.

With knowing of what one is creating for themselves the unknown of what that is doing can awaken at any time too..

With the amount of knowing you have about your physical body, I wonder if your toying with a wake up call when their is no need for it.
Can you elaborate? I take it that the wake up call is the desire to start taking care of things for the sake of doing so, but why do you think I might be toying with that and not needing it?

I get that your just flowing along as things are with awareness of yourself and I have seen people change over time as I have done myself, slowly through the natural cycles of change that often arise naturally.

But then spirit began sending me wakeup calls about the nature of the physical body and taking care of myself. It really opened my view into a new realization of my life and health and long term view. Especially if you are here for a long time. Your level of self care will be heightened in ways to get you to build a physical body that will sustain you for your own longevity.

There are points where if you let things go to far it can take you a long time to bring them back into balance. It can also create many unnecessary issues with your body all because you are not aligning the *take action* with your awareness as one...
Is the "take action" that you speak of about fear or could it be likened to fear, i.e., the knowledge that one should do something without the true desire to do so? If so, it's not necessarily true that I don't take action. I sleep a lot, brush my teeth, shower, etc. Sleep is a big one in my opinion.

I know people who have done what your doing and ended up with more physical issues than they ever imagined they would have to deal with. And they too were aware of themselves over the whole process..

But regardless of my view, its your choice and journey to be and do it your way.
I'm curious to know what the difference is between people who messed themselves up and others. It also seems unusual that you are aware of other people doing this because this isn't the kind of thing that I talk about with people I know.

Let me be clear here. I'm looking for the biggest thing I can get out of this. I'm looking for the most powerful, integrated, and natural state I can find and I'm willing to address the outright terror that's lodged in my body. I find that this is one way to do that.

However, there are forces that pull me back towards balance. Sleep is one. Other forces are the mini lightening bolts (for lack of a better term) that I feel in my head all of the time. They somehow serve to even things out. I once read that willpower can get you to the finish line (of enlightenment) but God (or at least, something other than what I know to be "me") takes the final step. I always thought that was very interesting and it does make sense in that the dualistic identity has placed itself on one side of the fence and does not want to take the step to the other side. By reason and will, it can get itself close to unity, but because its only tool is duality, something else has to finish the job. I think that these lightening bolts occur when I've moved myself close enough to the cliff that only a stiff breeze is needed, but like everything else, it happens slowly.

I don't really know what's going to happen but I know that I slowly feel better over time although it is true that my ****tyness becomes more polarized and more entrenched over time. I think I've used this analogy before on the forum, but it's like I'm pushing mud through a funnel. Every time I push, the funnel gets packed a little tighter, but a small amount of mud slips through the other side. It's like the movement of the arrow in Zeno's paradox in that each movement is relative to the current position, but, like the arrow, I think I'll eventually reach the target.

The one assumption that I made before I started down this path was that I can know what is true. If I can't know what's true then my experiences are completely without meaning. I didn't know that assuming that I could know what was true and asking myself what was true would lead to the kind of things I'm discussing, but that's what happened. If this doesn't get me "there," nothing will.

[running]

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about surrendering to a higher power or something like from a 12 step program, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever let themselves be fully overwhelmed by their addictions.

I guess there's a difference between, for example, caffeine and heroin, and the level of danger inherent in your addiction would dictate your behavior, but it seems that following it could allow you to break it and maybe learn something in the process. I definitely have a few addictions and I never fight them, but over time, I seem to be less addicted. I think it might be that I've slowly become immune to the payoff so that there's less reason to act out those behaviors. Thoughts?

Addictions could be good. If you trade them or have ones that help you become more what you want. For me I went from alcohol to pot to meditation and spirituality.

Luckily I never suffered physical addiction. So switching was fairly easy. For me I found alcohol is hard on the body especially as I got older. Pot was okay but it sure is nice not
doing it.

Meditation and my personal spiritual journey addiction I have found to not have anything to complain about. Its pretty awesome really. I get to enjoy myself and life more. And the people whom I become in contact with get a healthier, happier person around them.

So my current addiction is a good one for me. The previous ones gave me motivation to break free from them for a natural high.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Yeah that's why I didn't recommend that approach for more severe cases- I mean I wasn't in a good place this time last year and I turned to alcohol but it wasn't severe in that sense. It could've been- but when I started getting negative affects (anxiety attacks, ect) I had enough control left to stop. With severe cases they probably would carry on for the reasons you suggested and probably more. So it's not an answer- but I still think that often addicts will need to reach the bottom before they realize that they need to own the emotions behind the addiction in order to heal and get better.

I actually have to agree with Baile that for me the only reason I didn't get that low was because my Higher Self stepped in. During my awakening I became aware to how it was affecting me and afterwards the habit just suddenly stopped completely. I went from addicted to now not having drank in months. But I get many don't have that option. Many have to learn the hard way- like it sounds you did. But you surrendered to your emotions driving the behaviour and not the addiction itself- and that's what matters. Dealing with the root and not the symptoms. Less chance of the tornado effect then haha.

That's all reasonable to me. My way happened differently, with a full bottoming out , DT's , verging on NDE, and what I made sense of later as a death/rebirth/ walk-in transformation. The old life was mostly destroyed , and the 'new me' arose from the ashes and made a new kind of life.

There wasn't really a battle with addiction; I dove deeply into it and did not expect to survive . The expectation was to die of liver disease or lung cancer.
There was a different future for this body though ; Dave aint here . Me Dar now :wink:

[RedEmbers]

I personally couldn't do it... for me to surrender to addiction, well I'd probably start and never stop... the only gain is a deepening anxiety.

I have though, been surrendering to that which drives the urge... which is self medicating an entrenched blueprint of anxiety...
So... I can surrender to that anxiety, let it take me wherever it wants but can't surrender to its symptom of addiction.

I dont need to hit rock bottom... I just look around me to my family, the dark roads they have travelled and their inability to shake the core of their anxiety and depression...that alone motivates me to try and break those moulds.
As much as I am subtly reminded by those family members that the cause is futile...they seem to have almost succumed to what they believe is 'just the nature of who they are'...
Well... I guess that I was born a rebel smashing through ideas which no longer work... perhaps I'll just apply that same spirit to this...
HA.
Bye now.

[LadyMay]

That's all reasonable to me. My way happened differently, with a full bottoming out , DT's , verging on NDE, and what I made sense of later as a death/rebirth/ walk-in transformation. The old life was mostly destroyed , and the 'new me' arose from the ashes and made a new kind of life.

There wasn't really a battle with addiction; I dove deeply into it and did not expect to survive . The expectation was to die of liver disease or lung cancer.
There was a different future for this body though ; Dave aint here . Me Dar now :wink:

Haha, I guess you were ready to give up everything. Often that's needed before a transformation can take place.. sounds like as hard as it was it was meant to happen :hug2: I mean, looking back, would you take it all back and do it a different way or let it play out the way it did still?

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Haha, I guess you were ready to give up everything. Often that's needed before a transformation can take place.. sounds like as hard as it was it was meant to happen :hug2: I mean, looking back, would you take it all back and do it a different way or let it play out the way it did still?

One very shocking , wonderful realization that hit me shortly after I left rehab and felt the connection I'd wanted for years, but didn't have , was how it had taken all of that awful stuff to get the job done. Every bit of weirdness , unpleasantness, nasty things I'd done, etc., every one was a piece in the puzzle, a step on the way , to get me to that certain point of clarity. That was quite a stunning thing to see all at once, because before that it was all self-pity and hating my life , and being a victim of the world .
That old way of seeing and being got flipped on it's head and left behind, and I got to see that everything had it's place .

That was the start of the new life , and it was a culmination of the old one going down in flames , and it had all been necessary , so I knew then that
for me, it couldn't have happened any other way . The end of the drinking , the 4 days of waking nightmares that were my (one and only, because I only ever quit drinking this once) experience of the DT's pretty much left me ready to leave the booze behind. It basically scared me straight , because
it was such a physically and psychologically traumatic event , and because I did things that I know could have killed me , and because I know that I did things I don't remember , things that got me arrested twice , I knew as soon as I came back to this reality that I just might not live through the DT's a second time . I knew it was time to change, and I knew that rehab was my only shot :D

But it wasn't all crazy nightmartes :D for a few hours I was in Middle Earth, playing cards with the guard in city lockup, before they put me in the padded cell for the night :D

Even now, 26 years later, memories of how I was come up and I can only cringe . Addicts and alcoholics do some awful things and have some awful , twisted emotional things stored very deeply ; things that can take years and years to surface and get sorted out , but that flip-flop , that reversal and expansion of perspective that happens when you get to see life from the bigger, spiritual vantage point , makes it all perfectly alright. Accepting all the yucky stuff as part of your wholeness is essential to becoming integrated and functional . Besides , all this stuff , all the stuff in everyone's life is simply their individual version of doing exactly what it takes to reach that point of clarity .... and moving on to the next one (giant grins :D )

[silent whisper]

Now we're talking. Someone who knows where I'm coming from.

Can you elaborate? I take it that the wake up call is the desire to start taking care of things for the sake of doing so, but why do you think I might be toying with that and not needing it?

For me personally its like a readiness point. You just know and act when its time. For me the whole picture is a little more complex because I have been shown in the past during my awakening a bigger picture that had not fully come into manifestation. I was shown awareness of what was, what is and what was coming in me during that walk with spirit. So the future was really a space of timing and readiness and alignment. My wake up call was to see what wake up calls were about if that makes sense and how important the integration of the physical one with the mind and spirit is..After reading here more of your journey through those last paragraphs, my intuition immediately spoke to me with these words. *He is rolling the dice*. I wont say anymore just share that, perhaps you require that message for some reason.
Is the "take action" that you speak of about fear or could it be likened to fear, i.e., the knowledge that one should do something without the true desire to do so?

There are many reasons. For me personally as stated I had early awareness so as I evolved things aligned as they needed too. Much of this self care comes back to wanting to live fully, I suspect. And taking care fully..If so, it's not necessarily true that I don't take action. I sleep a lot, brush my teeth, shower, etc. Sleep is a big one in my opinion.

Your taking action for you basic needs that you obviously deem as important to you at this time. You mentioned in a post that you eat far to much sugar, yet your knowing knows you shouldn't,but you still do. That conflict speaks to me that you for some reason measure a greater need of sweetness in something external over the sweetness of life in you..* just my view of course*..I guess if your diagnosed with candida or diabetes things will change in that view..and you might take action then. It seems to me you are rolling a dice in some way. When I said toying, it feels to me that you on some level like playing with death..death by sugar..lol..no its not death, its more that you may like playing with fire..The elements we hold within self can be alluring to us on some level, they fuel us in some way and sometimes we like toying/playing with them to learn more for our own journey. I must say I relate on some level, but not when it comes to food addictions. For some reason food is one aspect of me that knows and listens more often than not. It is kind of like... I like to PUSH the LIMITS feeling...In some ways part of that nature is building resilence, deepening experience, understanding both sides. I had to learn both sides with a richer and a deeper level of awareness for my own personal journey. Maybe your going to become a master health chef...:D


I'm curious to know what the difference is between people who messed themselves up and others. It also seems unusual that you are aware of other people doing this because this isn't the kind of thing that I talk about with people I know.

I am aware. Awarness knows.

That in itself is what allows me to observe others one with my own experience of awareness of course.

There is a few aspects within my awareness that could create my answer to this. One aspect of me is that we have a journey to take and every part of that journey, is as it needs to be at each level, for our own greater purpose whether here or in spirit world. Then there is another part of me that is aware that we learn from each other and operate in ways that people who have walked through things fully can often use that awareness to bring a new view and way for others..In saying both of these things, everything is as it is, in the greater of you as the individual and the greater of the whole as one. I can look into my friend who has had massive heart attack, has over thirty stents in his body, has had cancer but continues to smoke as someone who just doesn't get it. But who am I to say this. If this is his journey every detail of it, it is what it is and was always going to be. Or was it? My other friend who is a diabetic, refuses to give up all the foods he is not supposed to eat because he wants to live out his life doing and eating what he loves even if it kills him. I am not sure but part of me feels that they are controlling and toying with life and death...but maybe they are meant too, my awareness as mentioned sees a few sides in all this. But in my knowing through my journey, it doesn't necessarily mean they will find or need that knowing... I know one thing,I know what my own awareness says I need and its more about balance for me. But then I have balanced my other levels so I understand why that is so for me. And I understand my greater journey beyond the experiences I have had.

Let me be clear here. I'm looking for the biggest thing I can get out of this. I'm looking for the most powerful, integrated, and natural state I can find and I'm willing to address the outright terror that's lodged in my body. I find that this is one way to do that.

So what is this terror? It seems that is the first time you have brought this up over the whole thread. That most powerful integrated state is coming home back to your natural self on all levels. If you want it in its fullness you have to build it through all levels, so I would be listening fully to all those things your awareness knows and is showing you even if your still doing the opposite..if its here and now and revealing, do you recognise its time? Or is there a part within you still not speaking that it is time? Everything has a place and order of unfoldment within self. But if your walking more aware I suspect that becomes a more pro active point of action..that not everyone has..

However, there are forces that pull me back towards balance. Sleep is one. Other forces are the mini lightening bolts (for lack of a better term) that I feel in my head all of the time. They somehow serve to even things out. I once read that willpower can get you to the finish line (of enlightenment) but God (or at least, something other than what I know to be "me") takes the final step. I always thought that was very interesting and it does make sense in that the dualistic identity has placed itself on one side of the fence and does not want to take the step to the other side. By reason and will, it can get itself close to unity, but because its only tool is duality, something else has to finish the job. I think that these lightening bolts occur when I've moved myself close enough to the cliff that only a stiff breeze is needed, but like everything else, it happens slowly.


yes your spirit takes over....and that is why my spirit guides came into my space as my support and reflection. At that point of surrender, whatever doesn't fit, certainly goes through the ringer for transformation...but again you are part of taking action at that physical level. That for me was another mountain to conquer. Being is one aspect, walking your talk, inner and outer all comes into the picture..For some its slow, for me it was a fast process, flashes of insight, fears uprooted, awareness revealed all at the same time. Falling off the edge for me required support, most people I know have never done it like I did, I feel fortunate I had guides to hold my energy and space, otherwise I cant imagine how that spiral would have been otherwise..Now of course as I rebuild my physical strength and take care of my body fully, I integrate this as a way of being and living with conscious awareness of it all now. how can I not I am aware of it all...

I don't really know what's going to happen but I know that I slowly feel better over time although it is true that my ****tyness becomes more polarized and more entrenched over time. I think I've used this analogy before on the forum, but it's like I'm pushing mud through a funnel. Every time I push, the funnel gets packed a little tighter, but a small amount of mud slips through the other side. It's like the movement of the arrow in Zeno's paradox in that each movement is relative to the current position, but, like the arrow, I think I'll eventually reach the target.

The one assumption that I made before I started down this path was that I can know what is true. If I can't know what's true then my experiences are completely without meaning. I didn't know that assuming that I could know what was true and asking myself what was true would lead to the kind of things I'm discussing, but that's what happened. If this doesn't get me "there," nothing will.


Being open to what is true for you fully warts and all is how its done..Nothing is disregarded. And everything is taken with you on that walk or entering the void.. If its true for you, it is part of you. No matter what truth that is. People will tell you not to do this or not to do that. All spirit is interested in for you to transform, is that you are not afraid of your own truth no matter what it is...The meaning is gathered through the whole, and the whole you walk through is your own unique journey. Some get to experience the whole view here and now, some see it when they leave their body..some only need bits of the whole. But ultimately everyone offers a new view and if we need to change ours, we will if its meant to be for our journey here and now.

[Baile]

That's all reasonable to me. My way happened differently, with a full bottoming out , DT's , verging on NDE, and what I made sense of later as a death/rebirth/ walk-in transformation. The old life was mostly destroyed , and the 'new me' arose from the ashes and made a new kind of life.In other words, your higher self kicked in and took over. Which is the process, and which I pointed out, and which you seemed (?) to disagree with. Yet here you explain how your higher self took over (walk-in), kicked your lower ego tendencies to the curb (old life destroyed), which in turn united your I with your higher self (new me) and healed your addiction.

[Ecthalion]

In other words, your higher self kicked in and took over. Which is the process, and which I pointed out, and which you seemed (?) to disagree with. Yet here you explain how your higher self took over (walk-in), kicked your lower ego tendencies to the curb (old life destroyed), which in turn united your I with your higher self (new me) and healed your addiction.
Your interpretation.
Others may not share your beliefs oh Guru.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

In other words, your higher self kicked in and took over. Which is the process, and which I pointed out, and which you seemed (?) to disagree with. Yet here you explain how your higher self took over (walk-in), kicked your lower ego tendencies to the curb (old life destroyed), which in turn united your I with your higher self (new me) and healed your addiction.
I can have a somewhat fluid perspective on the whole thing. I can see it from a few different vantage points , and they won't all be consistent with each other. From a strictly clinical perspective , it isn't about anything spiritual, but since this is a spiritual forum and I'm a spiritual person, I talk about that too. From that perspective , everything is about Spirit, and higher self .

Please note, if you're going to look for complete self-consistency in everything I write , you won't find it :hug3: , and I am aware of the contradictions (real or imagined) as they happen, generally speaking :D
(when I pay attention , anyway; sometimes it takes all I have just to get the words out in semi-intelligible terms :icon_eek: )

[BurningBush]

For me personally its like a readiness point. You just know and act when its time. For me the whole picture is a little more complex because I have been shown in the past during my awakening a bigger picture that had not fully come into manifestation. I was shown awareness of what was, what is and what was coming in me during that walk with spirit. So the future was really a space of timing and readiness and alignment. My wake up call was to see what wake up calls were about if that makes sense and how important the integration of the physical one with the mind and spirit is..After reading here more of your journey through those last paragraphs, my intuition immediately spoke to me with these words. *He is rolling the dice*. I wont say anymore just share that, perhaps you require that message for some reason.

Your taking action for you basic needs that you obviously deem as important to you at this time. You mentioned in a post that you eat far to much sugar, yet your knowing knows you shouldn't,but you still do. That conflict speaks to me that you for some reason measure a greater need of sweetness in something external over the sweetness of life in you..* just my view of course*..I guess if your diagnosed with candida or diabetes things will change in that view..and you might take action then. It seems to me you are rolling a dice in some way. When I said toying, it feels to me that you on some level like playing with death..death by sugar..lol..no its not death, its more that you may like playing with fire..The elements we hold within self can be alluring to us on some level, they fuel us in some way and sometimes we like toying/playing with them to learn more for our own journey. I must say I relate on some level, but not when it comes to food addictions. For some reason food is one aspect of me that knows and listens more often than not. It is kind of like... I like to PUSH the LIMITS feeling...In some ways part of that nature is building resilence, deepening experience, understanding both sides. I had to learn both sides with a richer and a deeper level of awareness for my own personal journey. Maybe your going to become a master health chef...

I am aware. Awarness knows.

That in itself is what allows me to observe others one with my own experience of awareness of course.

There is a few aspects within my awareness that could create my answer to this. One aspect of me is that we have a journey to take and every part of that journey, is as it needs to be at each level, for our own greater purpose whether here or in spirit world. Then there is another part of me that is aware that we learn from each other and operate in ways that people who have walked through things fully can often use that awareness to bring a new view and way for others..In saying both of these things, everything is as it is, in the greater of you as the individual and the greater of the whole as one. I can look into my friend who has had massive heart attack, has over thirty stents in his body, has had cancer but continues to smoke as someone who just doesn't get it. But who am I to say this. If this is his journey every detail of it, it is what it is and was always going to be. Or was it? My other friend who is a diabetic, refuses to give up all the foods he is not supposed to eat because he wants to live out his life doing and eating what he loves even if it kills him. I am not sure but part of me feels that they are controlling and toying with life and death...but maybe they are meant too, my awareness as mentioned sees a few sides in all this. But in my knowing through my journey, it doesn't necessarily mean they will find or need that knowing... I know one thing,I know what my own awareness says I need and its more about balance for me. But then I have balanced my other levels so I understand why that is so for me. And I understand my greater journey beyond the experiences I have had.
On the topic of rolling the dice, it seems that what I'm doing is "working." I eat far more fruit than I used to (in fact, I often crave it) and I eat less processed sugar than I used to. It's just that I eat more processed sugar than I "should." The way that I look at it, if there were no such thing as fear, I would have no concept of what I "should" be eating. I would eat whatever I craved, which is pretty much what I'm doing. There are plenty of times when I place the reality of my fears as the priority over any related desires, i.e., I respect my fears despite wanting something, but generally food is not an area where this is the case.

In regard to your friend with diabetes, that doesn't sound like what I'm doing. I'm not making the statement that I'm going to eat a certain way. I'm just explaining what my tendencies have been but I act as I feel that I should in each moment. As I said in my last post, if my deepest sense of truth misleads me, then I never had a chance to begin with.

So what is this terror? It seems that is the first time you have brought this up over the whole thread. That most powerful integrated state is coming home back to your natural self on all levels. If you want it in its fullness you have to build it through all levels, so I would be listening fully to all those things your awareness knows and is showing you even if your still doing the opposite..if its here and now and revealing, do you recognise its time? Or is there a part within you still not speaking that it is time? Everything has a place and order of unfoldment within self. But if your walking more aware I suspect that becomes a more pro active point of action..that not everyone has..
The terror that I speak of is just fear in general. I just wanted to use a strong word. Again, I believe that it is the thought of what I "should" be doing that is fear, not the behavior of eating poorly, however, sometimes it's hard to differentiate between the two. Desires easily become beliefs and vice versa.

[silent whisper]

On the topic of rolling the dice, it seems that what I'm doing is "working."

You can work anyway you choose of course. Its always a choice how you play the game of life in the ways your speaking about..

I eat far more fruit than I used to (in fact, I often crave it) and I eat less processed sugar than I used to. It's just that I eat more processed sugar than I "should." The way that I look at it, if there were no such thing as fear, I would have no concept of what I "should" be eating. I would eat whatever I craved, which is pretty much what I'm doing. There are plenty of times when I place the reality of my fears as the priority over any related desires, i.e., I respect my fears despite wanting something, but generally food is not an area where this is the case.

I don't think its about fear at all. I think its about lack of motivation in most instances. For some of us we need a kick up the bum to get things moving in the right direction, for others there is the extreme end of needing wake up calls to bring about change. For others they have found that balance for themselves that works. Either way you will get what you need for your journey and where your balance is at this point in time is where it is..If one is open and growing, not facing it all through the movements of growth, then whatever is not being attended to and needs to be will come around in the face of balance for ones own journey and health.

In regard to your friend with diabetes, that doesn't sound like what I'm doing. I'm not making the statement that I'm going to eat a certain way. I'm just explaining what my tendencies have been but I act as I feel that I should in each moment. As I said in my last post, if my deepest sense of truth misleads me, then I never had a chance to begin with.

Your acting how you feel in the moment of food, but with awareness one with that eating you could ask yourself why does one side lead and the awareness of what I know I could be doing not lead me...if your ready to ask yourself of course.


The terror that I speak of is just fear in general. I just wanted to use a strong word. Again, I believe that it is the thought of what I "should" be doing that is fear, not the behavior of eating poorly, however, sometimes it's hard to differentiate between the two. Desires easily become beliefs and vice versa.

Food fits into the balance of our integration, so sometimes it can be as simple as we are too lazy to do the thing we know we should be doing, sometimes it is just a way of living we have always known and that too like all growth takes time to move through.

[BurningBush]

Your acting how you feel in the moment of food, but with awareness one with that eating you could ask yourself why does one side lead and the awareness of what I know I could be doing not lead me...if your ready to ask yourself of course.
I had my answer before I even got to the question. The reason that I pick the side that I do is that I feel no purpose that stretches across time or at least, not one that's powerful enough to move me consistently.

[silent whisper]

I had my answer before I even got to the question. The reason that I pick the side that I do is that I feel no purpose that stretches across time or at least, not one that's powerful enough to move me consistently.

Today I noted that I was very behind in my housework, everything had piled up on me and I had a *mountain load* of things to do. Kept putting off what I knew needed to be done, thinking I would get to it all soon enough... Anyhow I found most recently that I function better when I have incentive to get moving and take action where my imbalances kick in.. So I was most pleased when I had a booking today to do a reiki on some one and tomorrow another incentive..That space of my purpose and love of doing, has been slow too, so that particular incentive to get organised hasn't been there... But today in that allignment of getting back to my work, I pulled my finger out of that whole and got moving and got everything that needed to be done and came back into balance...Everything once more, feels renewed and balanced on the whole both within me and outside of me and it feels great...:)

[BurningBush]

Today I noted that I was very behind in my housework, everything had piled up on me and I had a *mountain load* of things to do. Kept putting off what I knew needed to be done, thinking I would get to it all soon enough... Anyhow I found most recently that I function better when I have incentive to get moving and take action where my imbalances kick in.. So I was most pleased when I had a booking today to do a reiki on some one and tomorrow another incentive..That space of my purpose and love of doing, has been slow too, so that particular incentive to get organised hasn't been there... But today in that allignment of getting back to my work, I pulled my finger out of that whole and got moving and got everything that needed to be done and came back into balance...Everything once more, feels renewed and balanced on the whole both within me and outside of me and it feels great...:)
What are you getting at in general here?

[BurningBush]

SW, I've thought about this a little more and I think I have a better answer.

What I'm doing in choosing addictive behaviors is crossing some kind of line. It reminded me of something I'd read a while back:
http://www.swamij.com/kundalini-awakening-5.htm

I'm guessing that you've come across that site before since it's one of the top hits on Google for "kundalini." The part that I specifically want to put out is about the "three knots." While this particular page is talking about a late stage of Kundalini awakening (a stage that I'm probably not in) and is likely referring to "knots" that are something other than purely physical, my thought as that these knots probably have physical equivalents, or at least they can be felt in some way. The locations of these knots are also interesting, because, personally, I can't feel 7 specific chakras. I feel a top, a bottom, and a kind of valve between the two in the heart area. Specifically and maybe unexpectedly since we're talking about physical things, the knot that I feel that I'm breaking is the one between chakras 6 and 7 (I've thought about changing my username to "6to7" in the past).

Here's something I wrote on this topic on another forum almost a year ago. The topic is the same.

As I mentioned above, a lot of what I've been doing was to cross a perceived finish line of certainty. In my opinion, there's sort of a paradox here because there is a finish line and there isn't a finish line. There isn't a finish line because chasing external certainty will never get you actual certainty. Every time you cross a perceived finish line by pursuing external certainty, a new one will appear, so there is no real finish line when it comes to external certainty. When it comes to externally-based finish lines, the only way to really cross is to forget about the finish line altogether when the time is right. However, when it comes to the necessary physical changes that must occur before and alongside mental change, there is a finish line. That finish line is about establishing a certain level of connectivity within your body and, also paradoxically, in my experience, that occurs through pursuing all of the false external finish lines. The reason that occurs is that pursuing the external things that, with full self-honesty, you know you have to pursue (for example: eating a half dozen donuts for dinner because you know your body wants it more than it wants to each grilled chicken and broccoli - and yes, I've done **** like this before) results in a release of tension within the body. I think the release occurs because you do cross an external, albeit temporary finish line and the cumulative effect of repeatedly doing this is a release of tension, which expands the flow of energy in the body, which unveils more desires. If, as in my case, the desires being unveiled are fear-based desires, this inevitably leads to the realization of the futility of the process and you can start to do things because you want to, not because you unconsciously believe you have to.

I think that the black hole is not just a mental idea, but a physical one, and when you have extended the energy in your body to a certain part of the brain, you have effectively crossed the finish line.

[silent whisper]

SW, I've thought about this a little more and I think I have a better answer.

What I'm doing in choosing addictive behaviors is crossing some kind of line. It reminded me of something I'd read a while back:
http://www.swamij.com/kundalini-awakening-5.htm

I'm guessing that you've come across that site before since it's one of the top hits on Google for "kundalini." The part that I specifically want to put out is about the "three knots." While this particular page is talking about a late stage of Kundalini awakening (a stage that I'm probably not in) and is likely referring to "knots" that are something other than purely physical, my thought as that these knots probably have physical equivalents, or at least they can be felt in some way. The locations of these knots are also interesting, because, personally, I can't feel 7 specific chakras. I feel a top, a bottom, and a kind of valve between the two in the heart area. Specifically and maybe unexpectedly since we're talking about physical things, the knot that I feel that I'm breaking is the one between chakras 6 and 7 (I've thought about changing my username to "6to7" in the past).

Here's something I wrote on this topic on another forum almost a year ago. The topic is the same.

Ok now I see you even more so with this explanation.

So you linking this knot in you to your own bondage of thoughts? To reach pure knowing of what your body needs, rather than what you have been conditioned as a need one with those emotions?

This would make sense to what you body needs versus what you desire through the mind and emotions linked to those bondage of thoughts.

If your only feeling the root chakra and crown and valve for the heart chakra, it could be more about your grounded more in your head than the fullness of your whole being, of course.

The line your crossing makes sense to me. When I had gone as far as I could in my higher learning, as in crown and brow I was moved back into my lower chakras, to ground that learning and integrate it all, by my guides. It basically felt to me like once you reach a level at that level, you cant have the fullness of the physical and spiritual or mind body spirit integration if you remain in your head or higher chakras. So I did reach a point where by my awareness kicked in and I had to do the ground work.

I must add though if your waiting for some kind of miracle moment to awaken this reconnection it may happen with awareness, but you still have to do the work yourself by taking action to change the way your habits are..
If you are pushing the line, you will receive the pull back through the consequence of your push one with your awareness, to find your own unique balance..It sounds like that is in process now anyway.

It sounds like your slowly becoming aware through some changes, the fact that your aware of those knots and chakras, might be a stepping stone to opening your awareness further to another level very soon..:)

[silent whisper]

What are you getting at in general here?

That sometimes the order of flow is what creates the imbalance or block, when the order of flow changes, everything then flows with that new flow..

I am speaking from the physical level of being through what I shared.