Dogmeat

[primrose]

I just listened to a news story about how many dogs are killed and eaten in China. They don't want to be criticized as Westerners eat beef which to them is the same thing.

[Tobi]

I know. This hurts me to read about.
Especially as I had (and still have) a deep Soul friendship with my dog.
But it is still excruciating to me to read about the dog meat trade, and I find I can't even look at the pictures any more. I just sign the petitions with squinted eyes.
Then I go out and watch the cows in the field, and watch them closely, and see they have characters too, and they dream, and they lick each other in friendship, and they show affection, and intelligence too. The cows where I live are not treated so badly. They enjoy being in the fields, and have some natural life and contact with nature and each other which is worthwhile. But their fate is not really great. And their young are taken away from them, to produce milk for us.
The conditions for the cows in my area are nothing like as bad as those in factory farms. And no comparison to the suffering those dogs endure.

But I often do think if humans had closer connections with cows, maybe they would feel differently about eating them or using them as milk machines.

I am glad I don't use milk now and no longer eat meat.

[Visitor]

I just listened to a news story about how many dogs are killed and eaten in China. They don't want to be criticized as Westerners eat beef which to them is the same thing.
The Chinese have bred the Chow Chow for eating.

[Lilyth Von Gore]

I'm sorry. When I saw the title of this thread my first thought was about Dogmeat from Fallout 3 xD
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111124065712/fallouting/images/thumb/e/e4/Dogmeat.jpg/500px-Dogmeat.jpg

[LPC]

Dear primrose, I don't want to distress you, as I know that you are such a caring and sensitive person. I don't know whether they mentioned it on the programme you listened to, but the blunt truth is that most dogs in Korea and China are boiled alive, as the claim is that they taste better. The pain they suffer is incredible. I will refrain from giving any links to sites describing the procedure (although I have seen plenty in the past), as it upsets me, too.

Tobi is, of course, absolutely correct in her comments about cattle. The young males, and older females no longer needed, all go to the abattoir. Eating a lovely, gentle cow or veal meat (from a baby male) is not really any better.

There is only one difference: at least the cows and calves don't get boiled alive. I will stop there, as I am getting upset even writing this. This cruel method of killing dogs must be stopped. There are plenty of online petitions if anyone has the time to sign them (with some links to organisations trying to get it stopped in the countries concerned).

[linen53]

I am a meat eater. Yes, the animals actually give their lives for us. It is something to be thankful for.

I was talking to a friend about my hunter husband. She said, "I would never eat deer or antelope meat because of the way they are killed." I looked at her in astonishment. I asked, "Do you eat meat?" to which she responded she did. I said, "Do you know what goes on those slaughtering houses on that meat you buy in the supermarket?" She didn't want to discuss it any further. A hunter's game is killed humanely and quickly in the open fields, their homes. And my husband thanks the spirit of the animal for giving us meat to eat.

Someone once told me that animals do not fear death as humans do because they know they will live beyond the body they have sacrificed, unlike us humans who protect to preserve our bodies.

We raise ducks. Yes, we eat ducks also. We are humane when it is time to fill the freezer. It is quick and happens even before they know what has happened. I have had one duck actually give me a sign that she was alright on the other side. I cried. I don't like it when it is time to thin our flock, but it is necessary.

The fact that Chinese eats meat of their choice is no different than us eating our animals. We just have a cultural aversion to dogs.

[elisi]

if we have to eat meat, then the animals should be treated humanely.

we have a cherokee myth that in the beginning, deer offered to feed man as long as we respected them. if not, they would cause us disease.

when i was little, we were poor and daddy had to hunt for food. he only used a bow. he always thanked the deer for sacrificing itself and he used every part of the deer so there would be no waste.

[LPC]

linen53, you have completely sidestepped the important point: the dogs are boiled alive. You state, "Someone once told me that animals do not fear death as humans do". This may or may not be true, depending on the animal concerned, but the important issue is this - they DO feel pain, and the pain in the case of being boiled alive is excruciating. Do you regard this as acceptable, or not? Please clarify.

If you regard such treatment of animals as unacceptable, then are you willing to do something about it? If you need evidence, just Google "Dogs boiled alive in China" - but only if your stomach is strong enough for it. If you have any compassion, then sign one of the petitions.

[primrose]

LPC, I feel as you and Tobi do, it is so upsetting to see and hear about these
atrocities….I've been a vegetarian for many years now, I sign petitions, and talk to those who see nothing wrong in consuming flesh.

[innerlight]

The fact that Chinese eats meat of their choice is no different than us eating our animals. We just have a cultural aversion to dogs.

That's exactly it, and why so many that are meat eaters take offense to those that would eat a dog or a cat.. The answer being, those animals are pets to us in the west. And as those pets they are family. And find it appalling to eat such a beast.. But to those where they are wild animals, it is no different than eating a hamburger...

[linen53]

linen53, you have completely sidestepped the important point: the dogs are boiled alive. You state, "Someone once told me that animals do not fear death as humans do". This may or may not be true, depending on the animal concerned, but the important issue is this - they DO feel pain, and the pain in the case of being boiled alive is excruciating. Do you regard this as acceptable, or not? Please clarify.

If you regard such treatment of animals as unacceptable, then are you willing to do something about it? If you need evidence, just Google "Dogs boiled alive in China" - but only if your stomach is strong enough for it. If you have any compassion, then sign one of the petitions.

It is unfortunate the dogs are not humanely treated. It is not our custom and it is not my country. So no, I will not interfere in another people's lifestyle by signing a petition.

But, on the other hand, we do the same thing with lobster and crab. Boiled alive.

And then there are the true satanist groups right here in the ol' U. S. of A. who place the legs of babies and children in boiling water to absorb their life essence when they start screaming. Want to sign a petition for that too?

[sea-dove]

Boiling a lobster or crab alive is actuallly illegal in some countries if not done humanely. Here in Australia the law says one has to spike them to kill them first or put them in a freezer so they loose consciousness (put them to sleep) and dont feel the boiling.

[beloved_ofmars]

The dog meat industry is sick and heartbreaking, it's so upsetting that there are parts of the world that are so primitive they still participate in this barbaric act. Makes me very sad to see those beautiful babies treated in such a disrespectful and cruel way :icon_sad:. I think it is only a small part of China though, and I hope that people are becoming more educated today. There are charities who help to rescue these babies. I get very upset by this horrible 'industry' and hope that this savagery will soon become a thing of the past.
All animals are lovely though, I prefer not to eat anything with a face :smile:

[Tobi]

Petitions are the voice of the people worldwide, and can and do effect legal changes. I feel that if those who are deeply hurt by horrendously cruel practices concerning animals, make their voices heard, it can make changes happen, and is always worthwhile.
In the case of horrific child abuse caused by Satanists, that's the police or FBI's territory. And anyone with any knowledge of such practices can also effect changes by reporting those people.

But going back to the original discussion....it's not just the fact that the dogs are killed and eaten. (which is bad enough!)
True, we have stronger connections with dogs as they become family members, which is not always the case in some countries.
But the main issues are the unbelievable horrific conditions these poor creatures endure, and the method of their slaughter, which is horrendous. Laws can be strengthened and new legislation implemented, as direct results of successful worldwide petitions.

[linen53]

In the case of horrific child abuse caused by Satanists, that's the police or FBI's territory. And anyone with any knowledge of such practices can also effect changes by reporting those people.

Tobi, I have always respected your opinion in the past but I believe you are passing the buck here. The police or the FBI? Do you understand the Satinist groups, the true ones, not the kids you see on the news, are way under the radar? They pay off the local police and the FBI. They have major funding and pretty much decide who know and who doesn't.

So you are talking about dogs, and that is what you want to get back to discussing, and I am talking about children and that needs to be passed by. Because people really don't want to know what really happens in America. The don't want to know about Satinist groups and they don't want to know about pimps who abduct people into slavery and prostitution and they don't want to talk about child rape. We want to talk about dogs.

[LPC]

linen53, you are overlooking one important fact: this thread is in the animal section of this forum! I do not think you should raise issues about satanic abuse of children here. If you wish to do so, then raise the matter in a more appropriate section of the forum, not the animals section. Tobi is not "passing the buck", as you say. She is trying to point out to you that this section is not the right place to discuss your concerns about children.

If you have any information yourself about bribes or police corruption in the USA, then you should pass that information on to the authorities, not post about it on the animal section. The animal section is, not surprisingly, for discussion about animals.

Now let's return to the issue which primrose originally raised.

[linen53]

You're the one who brought up the issue about signing a petition against China.

I still think we need to stick to the problems in our own country rather than running all over the world sticking our noses where they don't belong. If you want to talk about animal cruelty, we have our own issues right here.

[Tobi]

Well....no....not exactly, linen. I think anyone, anywhere in the global population, who sees or learns of brutality or cruelty has a duty to do anything they can to possibly effect change.
Is it interference in long-standing traditions of a country? Well, yes, maybe it is, but why not -where there is obvious cruelty being practiced?
Remember we are not telling another country what they can and can't eat. We (well many of us in 'The West') can't know what it's like to be dirt-poor, or unable to sustain ourselves except by eating Dog.

Actually I seriously question if there are such dire circumstances where Dog meat as a food-source is the only option, and without it, innocent people might die (?) But I am willing to concede that there might be....(although I personally would be willing to permanently leave my physical body via starvation if that were my only option.)

We are only helping to (hopefully) reduce horrendous transport/slaughter conditions for them. That is probably all our voices can do from a distance. Yes, we should do this for dogs....but we also should do this for any animal.


I do believe anyone, worldwide who has a heart and a conscience, should challenge any 'traditions' which include acts of animal cruelty....whether that means asking the Queen of England why she still supports the Pate de Foie Gras industry.....or it means challenging the traditions of boiling dogs alive in China.

Tradition does not always know best. Compassionate change is always welcome. And the world population can help to bring that about. Compassion knows no boundaries or oceans.

[linen53]

You know, I've never been a mover and shaker so I am glad you have your agenda and can change the world. Happy 4th of July! If you are so inclined (sorry if I offended)

[sea-dove]

The dog meat industry is sick and heartbreaking, it's so upsetting that there are parts of the world that are so primitive they still participate in this barbaric act.

The whole world is barbaric, I dont think we can judge one country as being so when all countries are committing cruelity to a shocking level. eg one could say that the farming practices where animals are kept in a tiny pen all their life for something before being killed, when they are no longer useful is even worst then boiling a dog who gets a quick death.

I bet the chinese look at the things being allowed to done in the Western world, who are complaining about the chinese practices and wonder how on earth the westerners can complain due to what is being done in these countries.

Its a bit like saying to a child, violence is wrong but then hitting the child. The whole world needs a animal cruelity overhall.

[linen53]

I own Muscovy ducks and while I was acquiring my flock, I would visit farms. The living conditions these lovely birds are forced to live in is atrocious! Filth, and just barely enough food to survive. So afraid of humans they would cringe and go into hysterics when I just walked by them.

When the fox come and gets in and kills half a dozen, the farmers say, oh well, I'll just get some more. They don't take the action necessary to protect their flock.

Here in America, you always hear about horses, cats, dogs but you never hear about the cruelty of poultry.

Oh, and I own 3 dogs. 2 livestock guardian dogs to protect my ducks and a cross breed dog that is my husband's companion.

[OftheSun]

The whole world is barbaric, I dont think we can judge one country as being so when all countries are committing cruelity to a shocking level. eg one could say that the farming practices where animals are kept in a tiny pen all their life for something before being killed, when they are no longer useful is even worst then boiling a dog who gets a quick death.

I bet the chinese look at the things being allowed to done in the Western world, who are complaining about the chinese practices and wonder how on earth the westerners can complain due to what is being done in these countries.

Its a bit like saying to a child, violence is wrong but then hitting the child. The whole world needs a animal cruelity overhall.

Excellent point.

Many countries treat the animals horrendously for the entirety of their life and them slaughter them "humanely".

Others keep the animal well during it's life and slaughter it horribly.

In which system does the animal suffer more? The 18 months of bad life, or the few minutes it takes to die a painful death?

I don't have an answer, it's just something to think about.

I do not think that animals are fine with death because they know they will live on on the other side. I have never met an animal that doesn't fight to live when they feel threatened.

Even a worm or cricket desperately tries to escape. Hunting would take no cunning if the animals had no fear or resistance to death.

I am not opposed to eating meat or raising animals for meat. And I don't think that it's an issue which species of animal it is, that is a cultural issues as much as anything. I think the issue IS humane treatment during life and at slaughter.

Rabbits, cows, chickens, deer all have personalities and feelings too. though more people are familiar with dogs and cats and feel a deeper revulsion to eating them.