If I'm here

[Tesla_Rain]

Why dont I believe in god?

[Ivy]

This is a forum for spiritual development. You don't need to believe in god in order to develop.

[Ascension]

It's only once developed that you can see the great sea of life
and life is God itself ...
Hold on , be strong because when it's on it's on .

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Why dont I believe in god?
Maybe because you've been thinking God is like what someone else says it is . What if it's not like anything? What if it's everything , and no thing , all at once?. What if you believe that you don't have to believe? What if you can just BE ?

[RedEmbers]

I don't believe in any external god either... therefore I call myself an athiest. The title of Agnostic never felt right.
I am here because I feel connected to 'the all' because I learn from others here and enjoy the colours of life.
I believe in the connection we all share to each other and The world around us...
You don't have to believe in god to be spiritual :)

[BlueSky]

This is a forum for spiritual development. You don't need to believe in god in order to develop.
What does it mean when one says spiritual development?
It implies that we are spirit but what does that really mean?
I honestly think this spiritual thing we do is all a story.
I'm at point where I have to let it all go. No more spiritual stories.
What I think I see beyond the stories, I don't want to see but that's natural. What I am letting go of is the fear of what is beyond the spiritual stories being what I think it is. On the other hand I do realize that what I think I see cannot be seen in the way we see and think.
Sorry to bust in on your post, it's just the term. "Spiritual development" struck me.

[Adept]

Further along the spiritually evolutionary scale.

[BlueSky]

Further along the spiritually evolutionary scale.
More words. More answers.

[Ivy]

What does it mean when one says spiritual development?
It implies that we are spirit but what does that really mean?
I honestly think this spiritual thing we do is all a story.
I'm at point where I have to let it all go. No more spiritual stories.
What I think I see beyond the stories, I don't want to see but that's natural. What I am letting go of is the fear of what is beyond the spiritual stories being what I think it is. On the other hand I do realize that what I think I see cannot be seen in the way we see and think.
Sorry to bust in on your post, it's just the term. "Spiritual development" struck me.

To me, it simply means life. Throughout life we change and develop.

I don't believe in stories as anything but stories. But I appreciate the stories people tell for what they are. A story is a creative expression and we are amazingly creative beings.

Letting go of belief in the stories leaves what is there. But as long as you know what stories are, then they're a joy that appeals to the inner child, like nothing else.

Here you go, it's a story about letting go of the stories... http://walkingthejourneys.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/fireflies.html

Here's a story that confused me for a good long time because the ending it has now, wasn't written until some years after the original - maybe some of it will make sense to you or maybe you'll think it just a silly story. But the fact is, that they are stories, fictions that tell of a part of life experience - and they are happy just being fictions and need to be nothing more: http://walkingthejourneys.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/beginning-and-endings.html

[Baile]

More words. More answers.More words to describe the reality. We're here to develop spiritually, that's the purpose of the physical plane of existence. Answers as to why we exist are not a bad thing, it's okay to evolve, everything else does.

[Baile]

Why dont I believe in god?Because you instinctively understand that everything most of society believes about "god" is a fabricated children's story. You're ahead of your time in fact.

[Lorelyen]

What does it mean when one says spiritual development?
It implies that we are spirit but what does that really mean?
I honestly think this spiritual thing we do is all a story.
I'm at point where I have to let it all go. No more spiritual stories.
What I think I see beyond the stories, I don't want to see but that's natural. What I am letting go of is the fear of what is beyond the spiritual stories being what I think it is. On the other hand I do realize that what I think I see cannot be seen in the way we see and think.
Sorry to bust in on your post, it's just the term. "Spiritual development" struck me.

It's a viewpoint. I'm happy with the term. I carry out practices to enhance my lot and prepare myself for the eventual unity. I am looking for myself, the one I ought to have been in the first place and mean to become at the last of my life here.

...

[BlueSky]

More words to describe the reality. We're here to develop spiritually, that's the purpose of the physical plane of existence. Answers as to why we exist are not a bad thing, it's okay to evolve, everything else does.
I'll respond here to both you and Ivy to elaborate on what I'm trying to share. Yes Ivy, stories that I see as stories can be a wonderful thing and I recognize and embrace that. Stories that I deem spiritual in nature, such as the one Baile just shared are the stories that I find I must let go of. They can be and once were a wonderful thing as well for me but not once they were seen as stories. Letting go of them has been difficult for me up until now because I feared what I thought the reality that underlies them is. That was a story too, so I let that story go and with it the fear.

I hope that explains my meaning better and thanks to you both.

[sunsoul]

Maybe you are a Buddha Rain.......

[BlueSky]

Maybe you are a Buddha Rain.......
Buddha Rain? I never heard that term .

[Badger1777]

Why dont I believe in god?

Why should you?

The buddha was not a god, and he didn't believe there was one (except minor deities, the description of which being like spirits, or the original meaning of the word 'demons' before the church made that word mean something else as part of their systematic destruction of all other belief systems).

Taoists don't believe in god either. In taoism, the nature of reality is just the way, or 'tao/dao'.

Whatever the word 'god' once meant, it has come to mean something quite strange nowadays. The widely held idea of 'god' is some all powerful human shaped (usually man shaped) being that lays down the law but actually does nothing. You don't need to believe in that to be 'spiritual'. A few people seem to have an idea of god that is not like the widely held idea, but more like some sort of divine energy or 'truth'. That's a lot closer to what I think but I still don't believe that. I believe that WE are 'god', each and every one of us, and every thing, and nothing. Except I don't call it god because its too far out from what the word 'god' usually means. The universe and everything that is part of it is divine. It also happens to be omnipotent and omnipresent, so I guess it even ticks some of the boxes on the 'accepted' definition:smile:

[Greenslade]

Why dont I believe in god?
Welcome to Spiritual evolution. Hellfire and damnation for you then :smile: but make room for me.


Whatever the word 'god' once meant, it has come to mean something quite strange nowadays. The widely held idea of 'god' is some all powerful human shaped (usually man shaped) being that lays down the law but actually does nothing. You don't need to believe in that to be 'spiritual'. A few people seem to have an idea of god that is not like the widely held idea, but more like some sort of divine energy or 'truth'. That's a lot closer to what I think but I still don't believe that. I believe that WE are 'god', each and every one of us, and every thing, and nothing. Except I don't call it god because its too far out from what the word 'god' usually means. The universe and everything that is part of it is divine. It also happens to be omnipotent and omnipresent, so I guess it even ticks some of the boxes on the 'accepted' definition:smile:

If you go to where this all starts it begins to make sense - depending on what you take as evidence and truth. The Biblical God is the Sumerian Enki, who was one of the Elohim. Zarathustra was the first to come up with the unified God, and while Abraham is credited the ideas well (as in the Abrahmic religions) it's been said he was brought up as a Pagan but unified the Pagan Gods because nobody was listening to him. The Truth seems to be relative to one's own agenda after all. I think consciousness is evolving collectively and getting away from God is getting away from concepts that simply don't serve any more. In other ways people are still stuck in thinking that was fine 2,000 years ago but just isn't appropriate any more, but if they brought God into the modern context they'd see that they were right all along. God being omnipotent and omnipresent isn't that far away from the 'Divine' really, us humans sometimes need something to hang our hats on. "The Tao that can be told is not the Eternal Tao."

[Lorelyen]

It's "as above so below."

The god is within me - that's what being gnostic is about.

[no1wakesup]

Why dont I believe in god?

A belief or non belief in god is the same thing. The belief that a spiritual path brings you closer or not is more story to favor that one who thinks they are doing something to arrive. More concepts to hold onto upon that without concepts. That is all the mind is apparently doing

[krishna]

When you are ready-then you will believe in the divine.
In pure light and truth.
Krishna.

[silent whisper]

Why dont I believe in god?


YOu tell us?

The answer is in you.

[no1wakesup]

Belief in any god is no different and no more purposeful, meaningful or powerful than the belief in santa claus. It's the belief which is there because we feel we are separate to begin with that makes concepts, in it's many forms, seem possible. Ultimately, the core belief in your individuality, in this idea of "me" which is the last concept to be seen for what it is and has only appeared to be, real

[Tesla_Rain]

YOu tell us?

The answer is in you.


Then I was just soaking up the answers here, not intending to reply.



So anyway. I hope youll all keep adding on. :)

[Tesla_Rain]

Because you instinctively understand that everything most of society believes about "god" is a fabricated children's story. You're ahead of your time in fact.
Thanks for clarifying.

[Ivy]

I'll respond here to both you and Ivy to elaborate on what I'm trying to share. Yes Ivy, stories that I see as stories can be a wonderful thing and I recognize and embrace that. Stories that I deem spiritual in nature, such as the one Baile just shared are the stories that I find I must let go of. They can be and once were a wonderful thing as well for me but not once they were seen as stories. Letting go of them has been difficult for me up until now because I feared what I thought the reality that underlies them is. That was a story too, so I let that story go and with it the fear.

I hope that explains my meaning better and thanks to you both.

Are you sad to see the stories go?

[silent whisper]

Then I was just soaking up the answers here, not intending to reply.



So anyway. I hope youll all keep adding on. :)

I see.

Its about you not anyone else.

Often so many adding on is what creates the god issue..:)

But then if that is what you need.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Because you instinctively understand that everything most of society believes about "god" is a fabricated children's story. You're ahead of your time in fact.

From the Bill Nelson song 'Rocket To Damascus'

"Electricity made us angels
And money made us fools
But fear of future jackaled us
With Gods who ride the backs of mules "

(wake up or leave the planet, attenuate gaddanmit )"

[wstein]

Why don't I believe in god? Because you don't. Belief comes from within. Roughly your personality and experience interact, then you interpret what happened and form beliefs from that.

Unless you had some 'experience', 'cause' or 'need' for God you probably won't believe in one. Really, in modern society, one can get through life quite well without bothering with the 'God' issue.

[LadyMay]

Because maybe you don't want to. That's fine.

I'm a transtheist. Like an atheist, theist, pantheist, deist.. everything all in one and more. Something like that anyway. It's just the way you perceive things. Some believe in God, others don't. Same thing different view.

[silent whisper]

Because you don't. Belief comes from within. Roughly your personality and experience interact, then you interpret what happened and form beliefs from that.

Unless you had some 'experience', 'cause' or 'need' for God you probably won't believe in one. Really, in modern society, one can get through life quite well without bothering with the 'God' issue.

I think sometimes we can believe their are no atheist in this world when sitting in a big forum full of spirituality of many differing ideas. But really their are plenty who have had no conditioning of god and who view the world from within self. I feel they might have more of a grasp on the nature of what is than those who have been conditioned with some kind of belief. I know quite a few who can be very refreshing, with their open mind with nothing attaching to the whole belief/god thing.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I think sometimes we can believe their are no atheist in this world when sitting in a big forum full of spirituality of many differing ideas. But really their are plenty who have had no conditioning of god and who view the world from within self. I feel they might have more of a grasp on the nature of what is than those who have been conditioned with some kind of belief. I know quite a few who can be very refreshing, with their open mind with nothing attaching to the whole belief/god thing.
A good friend on another board is a real atheist. One of the most perceptive, intelligent, and articulate people I've run across ; very practical, and I do see a clarity and thoroughness that he's used to look at "the nature of what is" that a lot of people operating out of 'blind' faith haven't even come close to using . He doesn't discount or ignore the possibility , but he hasn't seen it, or any concrete evidence of it , so he doesn't believe it. There are million things under the sun to be amazed and inspired by, without having to defer to an individual creator/deity .

One line I like came from the latest Penny Dreadful , spoken by the African man wqho works for Sir Malcom . I forgot the exact wording of the question posed to him, but his response was "I beleive in everything " . Me, I don't know what I believe, and frankly, I don't care all that much , because beliefs are fickle , and may not have much to do with what really is . :D

[Lorelyen]

Then I was just soaking up the answers here, not intending to reply.



So anyway. I hope youll all keep adding on. :)

Not so likely. You get to know the personas of people here when discussion gets hot. You spend perhaps hours keeping up with a thread. Then it's deleted. How aggravating is that? I reckon you're taking the you-know-what.

[silent whisper]

A good friend on another board is a real atheist. One of the most perceptive, intelligent, and articulate people I've run across ; very practical, and I do see a clarity and thoroughness that he's used to look at "the nature of what is" that a lot of people operating out of 'blind' faith haven't even come close to using . He doesn't discount or ignore the possibility , but he hasn't seen it, or any concrete evidence of it , so he doesn't believe it. There are million things under the sun to be amazed and inspired by, without having to defer to an individual creator/deity .

Oh I love that, I have friends like that who have taught me so much..its really wonderful to have around you.

One line I like came from the latest Penny Dreadful , spoken by the African man wqho works for Sir Malcom . I forgot the exact wording of the question posed to him, but his response was "I beleive in everything " . Me, I don't know what I believe, and frankly, I don't care all that much , because beliefs are fickle , and may not have much to do with what really is . :D

me likes too..:)

[Miss Hepburn]

Maybe because you've been thinking God is like what someone else says it is . What if it's not like anything?
What if it's everything , and no thing , all at once?
I thought this was an excellent post, Dar. Haven't read all the pages yet...

So many concepts of "God".
Why believe in something because others have said it exists?
I say, see or feel for yourself...so if you have not felt or seen anything
called "God"...then why believe in one.

BUT, if it intriques you that centuries of poets and mystics have spoken of
the immense, intoxicating love of this Being...then, I say search , research on how
to experience "It" for yourself.

If intoxicating love, power, freedom, joy, bliss don't interest a person....then don't.

[Miss Hepburn]

Why don't you believe in God?

Probably because you don't care for "blind faith".

I don't like blind faith either. Sorry, it is nice I guess, but why have
blind faith in something you can directly, personally experience...

I say, if millions have said something exists....and of those a few have said this
"Thing" is absolutely Divinely Holy and Sacred beyond imagination and is eternal
Pure Love...it would interest me enough to look for it.

( I wouldn't bother with anyone that has not experienced this
Power of the Universe themselves.) Oh, and you can always tell when someone has
not exp'd this All pervasive Divine Presence because they place limits on it...usually
that you must believe "a certain way' before finding "It"...very funny and obvious that
they are spouting concepts from something they read and blindly believe.


No one that has directly exp'd "God" would say anything other than this Spirit is
anything but awesome Pure Love and judgment or wrath is not in "It/Him/Her".

Fun, thread, Tesla! :smile:

[Gem]

Why dont I believe in god?

I don't know.

[Jyotir]

Hi Tesla Rain,

You don't believe in God because you don't believe in yourself.
You don't believe in yourself because you haven't discovered your true self.
That search is God, and what all of us are doing in various ways.
That Self is God. There is nothing else.

~ J

[God-Like]

Hi Tesla Rain,

You don't believe in God because you don't believe in yourself.
You don't believe in yourself because you haven't discovered your true self.
That search is God, and what all of us are doing in various ways.
That Self is God. There is nothing else.

~ J


So J do you feel that what one believes in matters .

Nice to read your thoughts by the way ..

x daz x

[Badger1777]

Hi Tesla Rain,

You don't believe in God because you don't believe in yourself.
You don't believe in yourself because you haven't discovered your true self.
That search is God, and what all of us are doing in various ways.
That Self is God. There is nothing else.

~ J


Would the same apply to me? I do not believe in god, but I DO believe in myself. I also believe in a handful of others around me, who I know are true to themselves and to others, but who are all atheist.

Unless by 'God' you mean the divine in everything and everyone, and not, as many define god, some sort of superior being?

[Tesla_Rain]

Would the same apply to me? I do not believe in god, but I DO believe in myself. I also believe in a handful of others around me, who I know are true to themselves and to others, but who are all atheist.

Unless by 'God' you mean the divine in everything and everyone, and not, as many define god, some sort of superior being?
I believe in myself too 99 percent of the time. Its just when people come in and tell me stuff like that, that I doubt, it kinda plants a thought in my head.

I question things too much. -_-


I guess I learned that THE world is NOT PERFECT. Yay for that. Expectations of the world being a perfect place are far for realistic. I know this should be obvious, but I'm just learning this. Maybe the guy meant well. Maybe he didnt.

I guess *I can't wait to dream* either.

[LadyMay]

I use the word God sometimes because language is limiting and there's not really any other way it can be said so simply. But for me my understanding of God is more like Brahman. Not what is widely accepted as a superior being.

[Jyotir]

So J do you feel that what one believes in matters .

Nice to read your thoughts by the way ..

x daz x

Thanks, God-Like.

Yes, imo it does matter.
Spirituality aside - human beings couldn’t accomplish anything without belief.

~ J

[LadyMay]

Thanks, God-Like.

Yes, imo it does matter.
Spirituality aside - human beings couldn’t accomplish anything without belief.

~ J

I agree with this. Beliefs help us understand otherwise incomprehensible things. Our brains wouldn't be able to function without them much I don't think.

[Ivy]

Ideas and imagination help us explore the unknown. Belief helps us kid ourselves that we understand it.

[Jyotir]

You don't believe in God because you don't believe in yourself.
You don't believe in yourself because you haven't discovered your true self.
That search is God. What all of us are doing in various ways.
That Self is God. There is nothing else.

Would the same apply to me? I do not believe in god, but I DO believe in myself. I also believe in a handful of others around me, who I know are true to themselves and to others, but who are all atheist.

Unless by 'God' you mean the divine in everything and everyone, and not, as many define god, some sort of superior being?

Hi Badger1777,

A spiritual master said,
“So an atheist doesn’t believe in God. That means they believe in themselves, which is the same thing.”

Another spiritual master said,
“An atheist is simply God playing hide-and-seek with Himself.”

Do you get the implications of those statements?

- - - - -
I’m fine with atheism, did a stretch myself once, but respectfully positing this bit of reasoning based on extracted from your quote above:

“God the divine in everything and everyone” - - yet, that isn’t “superior being“?…“sort of“…?… That, you apparently reject in favor of believing in ‘others’ - human beings whose ignorance (defined as the un-divine in everything and everyone, and therefore inferior) will (imo) eventually fail you unless and until that ignorance is transformed.

But you can’t do that for them. It is only the ‘Superior’ within any individual life (and that is the latent potential, the hidden but emergent actual in ’believing in myself’) that can. It is that alignment - when conscious and deliberate - which makes life ‘spiritual‘. And it is not external to any self. To me that is the eventual ‘fatal flaw’ of atheism - “God doesn’t exist”, when simply ‘hiding’ within, that divinity assumed undiscoverable because ‘non-existent‘.
- - - - - -- -
additional thoughts and comments:

The generic problem (imo) with this theme - meaning the controversy if there even needs to be one - comes from a few confusions and attachments. iow... Why not lose the conventional 2000 year old symbol imagery and expand the definition according to new awareness or necessity vs. restricting potential experience because of an aversion to an old symbolism (or name) - which, btw is understandable. This is a problem however of formal obsolescence or insufficiency in symbol identification, not existence or being.

That ‘Being’ doesn’t exist exclusively as a ‘white haired old man on a throne’, even if that is the chosen (yet antiquated) ideal image of many. That Being regardless of variable individual preference of symbol image is within all, IS all; and in the Universe is becoming through the multiplicity what that One Is in Being through an evolution of consciousness.

That means “God” is any and all of it, contains all, and is also within all of it, Self-Conscious in each of those statuses which qualifies as ‘superior’/Divine. But the catch is: because of the previous, that means we are That as well, we are becoming and gradually realizing That. And That is still That even if the white-haired-old-man thing isn’t many people’s cup-of-tea anymore, which is ok. It just means they have simply grown out of a limited/limiting conception, and have experienced an expanded awareness of God, rendering the old-man obsolete. It’s not that ‘God’ doesn’t exist - its just that God’s self-awareness has increased in and through any particular individual being through an evolution of consciousness, in this example as an atheistic view which has rejected the traditional symbol form. But…

To equate that with “God doesn’t exist” is (imo) faulty, because it returns one to a material monism where ‘all’ is simply material process, which is actually not a cause - but, a result (of involution of Spirit), a false appearance, and traps one in endless doubt, confusion and stasis - because it doesn’t acknowledge the aspirational force within Nature which is the result of that involution, which is the origination of the evolution. How to self-discover the Highest within oneself if ‘there is no Highest’?, there is just ‘stuff happening’, chemical reactions, etc., and people ‘making up stories because they are afraid of the unknown‘? No transformation, no transcendence - just ‘ethical behavior’ as the greatest possibility for human beings, and the occasional ‘a-ha’ moment from random synaptic firings in the brain. For me, no thanks.

Do you claim that you ‘don’t exist’ every time you have new experiences, grow, change, acquire new friends, try new foods, visit another country? There is a continuity of being regardless of what is apparently evolving in experience. Name is just a convenience of identification for Absolute Being and all its relative manifestations which are still that Being - including us unaware of That, that we are That... until we permanently become that fully Self-Conscious awareness. That is an inspiring Ideal upon which to found an aspiring spiritual life - it is already present within by Nature - vs. ’there is no God’ - now what?, oh, how about endless arguing, wasting years asserting that negation, self-doubt, rejection of possibility and opportunity?

Why be limited by a misidentification, rejection of content because of an insufficiency of form?, i.e., God is exclusively an anthropomorphic personal deity, therefore if that chosen image is insufficient or obsolete, there must be no “God“. That would be like saying, “Food doesn’t exist”, because McDonald’s became unsatisfying, so I decided to cook for myself for a while.

God can be experienced/appear in many forms (or no form); personal or impersonal, one or many. Many Yogis, spiritual masters and saints have reported all kinds of manifestations of the Highest in their preferred form, or as the Divine Will chose to appear to them - as infinite light, power, peace, bliss, infinity, Mother, Child, Krishna in every grain of sand; but possibly too, a white-haired old man. So what?

Then there is the antiquated dualist conception which may be so unappealing, separative and fear based, and really makes no sense for many: i.e., God is/must be separate from ‘Creation’, because there is so much pain and suffering in the world, therefore “God” cannot be extant in the Cosmos. It’s just ‘physics’ happening (observe the explosion of responsible rational Jr. Physicists on spiritual forums everywhere!) …The universe itself is just some ‘stuff’ that is phenomenally separate and distinct from its Source: Absolute Being. (huh??) So there are really 2 realities (e.g. dualism) separate and distinct from each other and never do they intersect: God and Reality. And we’re in ‘reality’, helpless and sinful, spinning into eternal damnation and oblivion. This doesn’t seem to make intuitive ‘sense’ that God is separate, therefore if the old model is that God is separate, there must be ‘no God‘.

It’s understandable that this is happening for many people…

…choosing atheism as a provisional transition out of traditional religion because for many, a faulty, antiquated and obsolete conception that no longer serves their personal necessity such as some religions propose. For instance, that God has created inferior creatures who will praise and glorify Him for his eternal goodness and omnipotence and try feebly to come one centimeter closer to that goodness in order to experience the joy, on pain of eternal punishment when the vast majority fail in that attempt by their very imperfection. To that unsatisfying dogma…

…there is always possible the retort that a God, himself all-blissful, who delights in the suffering of creatures or imposes such suffering on them for the faults of his own imperfect creation, would be no Divinity and against Him the moral being and intelligence of humanity must revolt or deny His existence. - Sri Aurobindo, The Life Divine, ‘The Divine and the Undivine’

That model just needs to be replaced by one with more effective utility.
And for many, for now, that is atheism.

jmv fwiw,

~ J

[srpurple]

Well, why do you have to believe in 'God'?

[Seawolf]

Ideas and imagination help us explore the unknown. Belief helps us kid ourselves that we understand it.
Belief and faith is a beautiful thing. The world would be a cold and dark place without belief. We can learn from children who believe and aren't jaded and calloused like adults often are.

[Seawolf]

Why dont I believe in god?
There are many religions in the world, some have one god, some have multiple gods and some have no gods. Buddhism has no gods. But if spirituality to you is about god, there's nothing wrong with that either. Many will tell you religion is something bad, but look at their lives and see how they turn out in life as result of that negativity. A scientific study showed that religious people were the happiest in the UK.

[LadyMay]

Ideas and imagination help us explore the unknown. Belief helps us kid ourselves that we understand it.

We can't function much without beliefs though. I don't touch a flame because I believe from what I've seen that touching it would hurt me. If I went against that belief I would probably need a trip to the hospital.

[srpurple]

"Its okay to doubt what you have been taught to believe"

[Ivy]

Belief and faith is a beautiful thing. The world would be a cold and dark place without belief. We can learn from children who believe and aren't jaded and calloused like adults often are.

We can learn a lot from children by being as open to learning as they are. To believe in belief is to kid ourselves that we already know. Children believe in a momentary idea, but are quick to let it go when something new comes to light, whereas adults more often fight to be right.

[Ivy]

We can't function much without beliefs though. I don't touch a flame because I believe from what I've seen that touching it would hurt me. If I went against that belief I would probably need a trip to the hospital.

I may have a different interpretation of what belief is. Knowing that flames are hot is understanding, rather than belief.

[LadyMay]

I may have a different interpretation of what belief is. Knowing that flames are hot is understanding, rather than belief.

You said yourself that beliefs kid us into thinking we understand..

[Ivy]

You said yourself that beliefs kid us into thinking we understand..

Yes I did.

I didn't say that everything we understand is based on belief :confused:

We understand that a flame burns us based on physical receptors in our skin that send that message to our brain and the visible damage it leaves behind.

We believe that angels are looking out for us based on experiences that we are as yet unable to understand. So rather than say, I don't know how/why/what happened at that moment, we say that an angel intervened and saved us (as an example).

[Badger1777]

Ideas and imagination help us explore the unknown. Belief helps us kid ourselves that we understand it.

Nah. Belief helps us to strive to understand it. When we strive to understand something we do not understand, we learn loads of brilliant new things along the way:smile:

[Ivy]

Nah. Belief helps us to strive to understand it. When we strive to understand something we do not understand, we learn loads of brilliant new things along the way:smile:

Ideas and imagination help us to strive to understand the unknown.

To save argument about the definition of what 'to believe' means, this is the oxford dictionaries definition. It really doesn't lend itself to the idea that belief creates an openeness to learning:

(1)To accept that something is true, especially without proof.

(1.2) Accept the statement of someone as true.

(1.3) Have religious faith.

(1.4) [to believe something of] to believe that someone is capeable of something.

[Badger1777]

To save argument about the definition of what 'to believe' means, this is the oxford dictionaries definition. It really doesn't lend itself to the idea that belief creates an openeness to learning:

(1)To accept that something is true, especially without proof.

(1.2) Accept the statement of someone as true.

(1.3) Have religious faith.

(1.4) [to believe something of] to believe that someone is capeable of something.

(my bold for emphasis)

With respect, I think the exact opposite. The Oxford dictionary definition as you quoted lends itself perfectly to learning. "To accept that something is true, especially without proof". So if you know its true, you'll have no qualms about testing that belief, and so learning as you go. If on the other hand you don't believe something, then a task or learning exercise may seem daunting and you may be put off trying. For example, I believe that I could could run 10 miles. If I tried it now, I'd get half a mile down the road and run out of energy, but if I really wanted to run 10 miles, because I believe it can be done, I'd have nothing stopping me from persevering. If I didn't believe it could be done, I would never try, and I would never find out just how much I could do.

[Ivy]

If that is what helps you There is help and hinderance to found in everything.

I've not found a need to believe in an end goal, I don't feel driven by that and instead I find it holds me back. In terms of religious and spiritual beliefs, I can see a lot that causes harm in our world due to people fighting for their beliefs to be true. So that is where my view comes from... but it is a point of view from my eyes, not a belief that is true or that I would need to be true for you.

[Badger1777]

If that is what helps you There is help and hinderance to found in everything.

I've not found a need to believe in an end goal, I don't feel driven by that and instead I find it holds me back. In terms of religious and spiritual beliefs, I can see a lot that causes harm in our world due to people fighting for their beliefs to be true. So that is where my view comes from... but it is a point of view from my eyes, not a belief that is true or that I would need to be true for you.

What shape is the earth? And before you answer, consider carefully, how you know.:smile:

[Ivy]

I don't know what shape the Earth is. But what is the belief you are trying to prove in your questioning?

[LadyMay]

Yes I did.

I didn't say that everything we understand is based on belief :confused:

We understand that a flame burns us based on physical receptors in our skin that send that message to our brain and the visible damage it leaves behind.

We believe that angels are looking out for us based on experiences that we are as yet unable to understand. So rather than say, I don't know how/why/what happened at that moment, we say that an angel intervened and saved us (as an example).

Ideas and imagination help us to strive to understand the unknown.

To save argument about the definition of what 'to believe' means, this is the oxford dictionaries definition. It really doesn't lend itself to the idea that belief creates an openeness to learning:

(1)To accept that something is true, especially without proof.

(1.2) Accept the statement of someone as true.

(1.3) Have religious faith.

(1.4) [to believe something of] to believe that someone is capeable of something.

But now I'm thinking that it depends on what you mean by proof. For me it is not proof until I have experienced it for myself. And until I have I will continue to believe that it is dangerous to touch a flame because that is what others have told me through their testing of experiential proof.

[Ivy]

My son is talented in science. When he very young, he would climb up on the chair to watch me iron, and I would constantly be reminding him not to get to close, not to touch the iron etc. But one day, quite deliberately, he touched the hot plate of the iron with the end of his finger - just to see if it really would burn. I've done similar things in my life, because I feel an urge to find out for myself.

But in many other areas, I accept where science has got to in their discoveries - but at the same time - I accept that there remains an unknown and that proof is not truth, it is simply what we have realised in that moment.

[Seawolf]

We can learn a lot from children by being as open to learning as they are. To believe in belief is to kid ourselves that we already know. Children believe in a momentary idea, but are quick to let it go when something new comes to light, whereas adults more often fight to be right.
'The belief in no belief' seems to be a popular trend in New Age religion right now. I wonder how those people would feel if they realized how much belief they actually have.

It's basically another way to put down religions different than our own and see ourselves as superior -- religious intolerance is spiking currently in Western society and New Age is following.

[Ivy]

'The belief in no belief' seems to be a popular trend in New Age religion right now. I wonder how those people would feel if they realized how much belief they actually have.

It's basically another way to put down religions different than our own and see ourselves as superior -- religious intolerance is spiking currently in Western society and New Age is following.

I have no idea what new age is, nor am I a follower of it. So the discussion here has nothing to do with new age, or with religious intolerance. It is a personal view, based upon my personal experience.

Could I ask you to explain what you mean more directly, with regard to what I've said on this thread please.

[Seawolf]

I have no idea what new age is, nor am I a follower of it. So the discussion here has nothing to do with new age, or with religious intolerance. It is a personal view, based upon my personal experience.

Could I ask you to explain what you mean more directly, with regard to what I've said on this thread please.
So you have no spiritual beliefs at all? Strange that you would be in a spiritual forum.

[Ivy]

Like a child, I have temporary ideas that I believe in - but I don't believe them to be an absolute truth. However, I get a lot from exploring different ideas.

Why do you question my being here if I don't have anything that I believe to be the truth of spirituality?

[Lorelyen]

Looks like the original poster was a wind-up. She's certainly achieved her objective on page 3.

Then I was just soaking up the answers here, not intending to reply.

So anyway. I hope youll all keep adding on. :)

[Seawolf]

Like a child, I have temporary ideas that I believe in - but I don't believe them to be an absolute truth. However, I get a lot from exploring different ideas.

Why do you question my being here if I don't have anything that I believe to be the truth of spirituality?
I didn't say anything about truth.

This is a spiritual forum. You started making an argument against belief. But this is forum specifically centered on spiritual belief.. all kinds.

I've never heard that spiritual belief has to be about absolute truth. I would research it more, it sounds like you're basing your idea of belief on fringe fundamentalist ideas that use words like 'absolute truth'.

[Ivy]

Lorelyen, I can't see anyone being a wind up. Although I do get the impression that there is something more going on between you and the op, that I'm not aware of. But whatever it is, it doesn't effect me, so I don't see what you've quoted as anything but someone saying they want to hear the replies, rather than discuss them. Lots of people do that.

[Ivy]

I didn't say anything about truth.

This is a spiritual forum. You started making an argument against belief. But this is forum specifically centered on spiritual belief.. all kinds.

I've never heard that spiritual belief has to be about absolute truth. I would research it more, it sounds like you're basing your idea of belief on fringe fundamentalist ideas that use words like 'absolute truth'.



Nope, I'm basing my arguments on the generally agreed definition of what to believe means. As I said earlier...

To save argument about the definition of what 'to believe' means, this is the oxford dictionaries definition. It really doesn't lend itself to the idea that belief creates an openeness to learning:

(1)To accept that something is true, especially without proof.

(1.2) Accept the statement of someone as true.

(1.3) Have religious faith.

(1.4) [to believe something of] to believe that someone is capeable of something.

Apart from 1.4, 'to believe' is generally interpreted as relating to the idea that something is true.

[Badger1777]

I don't know what shape the Earth is. But what is the belief you are trying to prove in your questioning?

Good answer:smile:

Most people would automatically say that quite obviously, as everyone knows, the earth is roughly spherical. To which I would ask how they know, have they personally seen it from space with their actual eyes:D

[Seawolf]

Nope, I'm basing my arguments on the generally agreed definition of what to believe means. As I said earlier...

To save argument about the definition of what 'to believe' means, this is the oxford dictionaries definition. It really doesn't lend itself to the idea that belief creates an openeness to learning:

(1)To accept that something is true, especially without proof.

(1.2) Accept the statement of someone as true.

(1.3) Have religious faith.

(1.4) [to believe something of] to believe that someone is capeable of something.

Apart from 1.4, 'to believe' is generally interpreted as relating to the idea that something is true.
I can believe something is true without it having to be 'abolutely true'. I can believe something knowing that I may be wrong about it. Religious(spiritual) faith is believing something without knowing. It's a beautiful part of being human and inspires much charity and social work among the religious, not to mention peace in the individual. Religious belief in individuals can change and often does, because it's not about facts, it's about faith. If it was about facts, it would generally not change in the individual, like the fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

[LadyMay]

I can believe something is true without it having to be 'abolutely true'. I can believe something knowing that I may be wrong about it. Religious(spiritual) faith is believing something without knowing. It's a beautiful part of being human and inspires much charity and social work among the religious, not to mention peace in the individual. Religious belief in individuals can change and often does, because it's not about facts, it's about faith. If it was about facts, it would generally not change in the individual, like the fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

You know you have (to me) some bizarre ways of understanding things but I love reading about them. Fresh perspective.. love it.

[Ivy]

Most people would automatically say that quite obviously, as everyone knows, the earth is roughly spherical. To which I would ask how they know, have they personally seen it from space with their actual eyes


Jean Baudrillard created a philosophical model of 4 stages of reality. It's beautiful to study because it blows the minds preconceptions of reality open.

If I remember rightly (I might not lol), the first stage is the representation of reality - the photograph - and I guess film form space would be in this first stage.

The second stage is the distortion of reality - you might think of it as being like a photo-shopped image - there is a representation of reality in it, but it is distorted in some way.

The third stage is when the representation is disguised as fact, when there is no reality being represented.

The fourth stage is a hyperreality, where the representation itself becomes reality.

To me, to look at philosophies and theories, is like being allowed to consider ideas that invite questioning of the unanswerable or unknown - this is what sparks me. For me, belief is like the answers given and taught as found, and there is no spark of curiosity for me in that. I like to be teased by the unfathomable or unknown.

I can believe something is true without it having to be 'abolutely true'. I can believe something knowing that I may be wrong about it. Religious(spiritual) faith is believing something without knowing. It's a beautiful part of being human and inspires much charity and social work among the religious, not to mention peace in the individual. Religious belief in individuals can change and often does, because it's not about facts, it's about faith. If it was about facts, it would generally not change in the individual, like the fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

There is beauty and ugliness, help and harm, love and hate in all things - beliefs are no exception as todays news shows. But this was never the point of discussion that I took.

My point was simply that to believe, is to kid ourselves that we already know the truth. The conclusions that you have drawn from that so far, are interesting, in that they have little to do with anything I have said or thought. So where do they come from, is what I ask myself, and that question doesn't take me down a route of religious belief, it takes me down a path of belief in the perspective you see as being an actuality.