Free will and quantum mechanical aspects

[sarek]

Under traditional physics, there is no escape from the fact that our will is pre-determined and therefore not free.
Under quantum mechanics, at first sight one would think this to be different. Our will is not pre determined in the sense that we do not know in advance which processes will happen in certain areas of our brain.
However, its easy to see that randomness does not equate to free will either. Rather, it is absence of will, it is pure chance.

Consider, however, the following.

As the All that Is is equal to Nothing, this means there can not be a net amount of time. If there were there would be "something" other than nothing. From the point of view of the All, time does not exist.

This means that from that POV, there is no "timespace" between present and future.

Our human perception is limited. We perceive linear time, and as such quantum mechanics presents us with unpredictability.
Every time a quantum effect occurs and a measurement is made, the multitude of possible outcomes collapses into only one.

There is a philosophy within quantum mechanics that says that all the other possible choices, that haven't materialised in our timeline, are still out there in branched timelines. This is called the many world hypothesis.

Let us now observe an experiment conducted from the POV of a timeless observer.
The same experiment is conducted not just once (our timeline) but many times (the many worlds).

Subsequently, and from our POV after the fact the best outcome is chosen by the experimenter.

It is important to see that for us, humans, there is no way to see that the experiment has been rigged because the outcome we observe is still an outcome within the range of all possible random outcomes. We do not see any aberrations or impossibilities.

Still, Will has been exercised! But its not our own free will, it is the will of the timeless experimenter.

So, what if our higher self, or God, or Brahman or whatever we may call it, is that timeless experimenter?

Personally, i find it rather intriguing that we just may be living in a universe that is set up in such a way as to make it fundamentally impossible for us to determine if there really is free will or not.

[God-Like]

Personally, i find it rather intriguing that we just may be living in a universe that is set up in such a way as to make it fundamentally impossible for us to determine if there really is free will or not.



Hi sarek

As something else reveals it's self one can then and only then relate to that something . Many have already related to awakening to some degree whilst never being aware of having slept .

Some are aware of a feeling of free will without realizing they were never something that can be free nor incarcerated .

x daz x

[Rawnrr]

So, what if our higher self, or God, or Brahman or whatever we may call it, is that timeless experimenter?

Seeing as time/space is only an aspect of 3 dimensional existence, I quite strongly believe that the root of our consciousness is pushed out from a 2 dimensional experience into the 3d manifestation. Therefore from that 2d existence, the experience would be timeless (from our 3d point of view of time)

[sarek]

Seeing as time/space is only an aspect of 3 dimensional existence, I quite strongly believe that the root of our consciousness is pushed out from a 2 dimensional experience into the 3d manifestation. Therefore from that 2d existence, the experience would be timeless (from our 3d point of view of time)

Time itself would have to be at least two dimensional, but may very well be more than 2D. I have reason to believe its at least 3D but thats what I am working on.
That is in addition to all spatial dimensions, currently presumed to be 3 although string theory may change that yet.

You have the timeline which we perceive, which is one dimensional.
The appearance of the many worlds probability space adds a second dimension.

[Rawnrr]

According to modern physics "Space/time" is a 3 dimensional manifestation.
I would postulate that 2 dimensions are what is found at the quantum level (and below)...and early indications are that quantum level events act outside of time (as we know it).

[Baile]

Still, Will has been exercised! But its not our own free will, it is the will of the timeless experimenter.

Personally, i find it rather intriguing that we just may be living in a universe that is set up in such a way as to make it fundamentally impossible for us to determine if there really is free will or not.Fascinating topic to say the least. I grokked everything until I read the quote above. How does this reality - if that's how things in fact work - eliminate or prove the absence of "our own" free will? It entirely depends upon how one sees and views the initiator of that free will.

According to your description, this is really about the lower self supposedly not having free will. The timeless experimenter - the supposed keeper of one's free will - would be the higher self. That's fine, but one thing your description doesn't do is discount the possibility that the lower self is still capable of exercising free will while taking part in the timeless experimenter's (current) experiment.

[sarek]

According to your description, this is really about the lower self supposedly not having free will. The timeless experimenter - the supposed keeper of one's free will - would be the higher self. That's fine, but one thing your description doesn't do is discount the possibility that the lower self is still capable of exercising free will while taking part in the timeless experimenter's (current) experiment.

No, it doesn't discount that possibility. However, consider this:

If our brains run purely on classical rules of physics we are predetermined. There's no two ways about that.

If our brains run partially or completely on quantum mechanical principles (ie if microscopic quantum effect are significantly felt in the macroscopic world) then we still do not have free will because in that situation our will would be randomised. Random is not predetermined, but it is not real will either. Its just, random.

From our one dimensional temporal POV we can by definition not see will in a random process.
In order to see will, you would need a higher dimensional vantage point.

Perhaps to clarify my ideas: I arrived at this standpoint in July last year. At that point I had not begun actively engaging in spirituality. Shortly after that I began reading Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous which pretty much confirmed to me that I had been on the right track. It established for me that aforementioned "experimenter" is in fact our higher consciousness.

[Baile]

Shortly after that I began reading Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous which pretty much confirmed to me that I had been on the right track. It established for me that aforementioned "experimenter" is in fact our higher consciousness.

If our brains run purely on classical rules of physics we are predetermined. There's no two ways about that.Logic tells us 2 + 2 = 4. But using a different reasoning philosophy, the answer would be 4 and it would not be 4. My understanding is Ouspensky was familiar with this level of spiritual reasoning. It's the same idea I try and get across to others when they use terms like "purposeful design" to verify why God must exist. Purposeful design, based on what? Our human understanding of what it means to design a new sunroom for the house? Our expansive knowledge and understanding regarding the purpose of such things as a universe billions of light years in across?

We know nothing. We don't even know in which manner we need to arrange our thought processes in order to begin to explore the makeup of creation and how it functions. In fact, we don't know if knowing that is even possible. The one and only starting point of all knowledge and all true wisdom - and should be for all spiritual and religious beliefs, but like that's going to happen with people - is that we haven't got a clue.

[sarek]

Indeed, we know nothing. That is where logic lets us down because spiritual matters transcend and transform logic. I do believe it is one of Ouspensky's limitations in working with Gurdjieff's Fourth Way in that Ouspensky had a predilection for intellectualism.

What I have been trying to explain is mainly that I find great elegance in the way that the universe is set up as to make it impossible for science to make a final statement about free will. Its like it has been deliberately left to faith.

No calculation of any kind will ever show us the answer, and those who are stuck believing that it will, will never have the faith necessary to make the leap forward into experiencing rather than thinking.

[r6r6]

"All" = non-occupied( beyond ergo 'meta'-physical ) our finite-- and --- occupied space.

Occupied Space = The Great Illusion

Interfering and non-interfering patterns operating in pure principle.

<< past << OUT )(IN << future <<

Our abilities to will a plane to come out of downward tailspinning spiral is limited.

Gravitational essence is cause and efffect determinate eternally.

Biological = temporal manifestation to question the the Great Illusion and "All" non-occupied and occupied space.

<<<<(>)(*Y*)(<)<<<<

Synergetic Evolutionary Pattern?

r6

[Baile]

What I have been trying to explain is mainly that I find great elegance in the way that the universe is set up as to make it impossible for science to make a final statement about free will.Yes, I picked up on all that and found it all very fascinating. I wasn't suggesting you know nothing, and sorry if I gave that impression. I was simply trying to add another idea to the discussion as it relates to what we can and cannot assume to know.

Its like it has been deliberately left to faith.See, there again is another fascinating thought, an idea I've never heard or read anywhere else that I can recall. Deliberately left to faith... That's not too far off from what I've come to understand for myself. There appear to be universal laws at work on some real level. But past that, it's as if we're creating our individual and collective reality as we go along. For me, the journey IS the enlightenment experience, and true wisdom is entirely experiential. Rather than left to faith, I would say things appear to have been left open to interpretation according to one's experience and level of understanding.

[Baile]

BTW, when I say we don't know anything, I don't mean we can't ever know things. I just mean the starting place for any exploration should be from a place of not having preconceived thoughts, ideas and beliefs. Likewise, it's fundamental we continually discard old understandings and replace them with new ones. That's why religion doesn't work for me. And why much of what spirituality is assumed to be, doesn't work for me either.

[r6r6]

r6r6r}--"All" = non-occupied( beyond ergo 'meta'-physical ) our finite-- and --- occupied space.

Specifically metaphysical-2 is non-occupied space.


Occupied Space = The Great Illusion
Interfering and non-interfering patterns operating in pure principle.
<< past << OUT )(IN << future <<
Our abilities to will a plane to come out of downward tailspinning spiral is limited.
Gravitational essence is cause and efffect determinate eternally.
Biological = temporal manifestation to question the the Great Illusion and "All" non-occupied and occupied space.
<<<<(>)(*Y*)(<)<<<<
Synergetic Evolutionary Pattern?[/QUOTE]

[wstein]

Under traditional physics, there is no escape from the fact that our will is pre-determined and therefore not free. How so? just because energy (matter) follows rules, does not mean it can not be affected by 'will' (or consciousness, spirit, inter-dimensional beings, etc).

This is more or less the same argument against free will if the universe is timeless (all there 'now'). Just because it has all 'played out' does not mean we didn't assert our free will already.

Only if the space-time universe is the fundamental form of reality does the above have any valid context. This is way far from proven. Even now physicists are positing other parallel realities.

[r6r6]

Even now physicists are positing other parallel realities.

So what. All realities--- universes ---are connected minimally by gravity i.e. we live in one finite, occupied space Universe, that, is eternally determinatically cause and effect minimally by the ultra-micro and ultra-micro complex set of gravitational interrelationships as the underlying essence. imho

It is only humans inability to ever observe or total accounting of the ultra-complex set of interrelatiomships that forever maintain the uncertainty principle.

Uncertainty does not neccesitate chaos.

Disorder is temporary state of mind/intellect i.e. inability to integrate the current conditions/circumstances for a temporary period of time, in general.

<< past << OUT )( IN << future <<

<< (>)(*Y*)(<) <<

<< OUT-spirited << )( IN-spirited <<

[sarek]

How so? just because energy (matter) follows rules, does not mean it can not be affected by 'will' (or consciousness, spirit, inter-dimensional beings, etc).

This is more or less the same argument against free will if the universe is timeless (all there 'now'). Just because it has all 'played out' does not mean we didn't assert our free will already.

Only if the space-time universe is the fundamental form of reality does the above have any valid context. This is way far from proven. Even now physicists are positing other parallel realities.

Is that not exactly what I have been saying? Try not to get stuck in apparent contradictions. Remember as an analogy that particles do not exclude waves. What you see, depends on how you see it.

The key is in perception.

[Baile]

<< past << OUT )( IN << future <<

<< (>)(*Y*)(<) <<

<< OUT-spirited << )( IN-spirited <<Hi r6. I notice you post these obscure words and symbols without ever explaining what they mean. Can I ask: Are you wanting to engage in a dialogue about any of this? Or are you creating a kind of "I am quantum/anonymous" internet persona, and do this as a fun thing and to mess with peoples' minds? I honestly can't tell.

[Baile]

Is that not exactly what I have been saying?Indeed it is: What I have been trying to explain is mainly that I find great elegance in the way that the universe is set up as to make it impossible for science to make a final statement about free will.

[r6r6]

Baile--} Hi r6. I notice you post these obscure words and symbols without ever explaining what they mean.

Hi Baile,

1) first of all I have given more explanation to some if not all of my texticonic symbolisms in other threads around, so others have seen and read those explanations, clarifications, elaborations etc...

2) humans have been using picto-graphic symbolisms for thousands of years to communitate,

3) humans have recently began to incorporate picto-graphic symbolisms more and more into our everyday lives in computers, in cars etc.....

4) if your curious to know what a symbol may mean to me then you can ask,

5) ex << past << )( << future << is explained for you as follows;

..5a) "<<" these are liken to directional arrows i.e. they point the observer in specific direction sometimes you may see arrow when driving on the road to point us in this direction of that direction,

...5b) "past" has to do with time i..e "pas"t is what we observe after future and present has occurred and sometimes this known as the 'arrow-of-time' or the flow-of-time in a specific direction wherin the past follows the future and there both going in the same direction

...5c) ex we cannot revert back to the fetus > egg > womb we go from womb > egg > fetus > baby > child > adult,

..5d) ")(" these two marks are the set that delinenates the past from the future and is oftens referred to as the 'present' or NOW and I have sometimes used those words in between those two lines but I also use other words or symbolsims at differrent at differrent times inbetween those two lines to offer a diffferrent perception of what how we may want to identify what exists, if anythig between ")(".


Can I ask: Are you wanting to engage in a dialogue about any of this?

I have engaged in other threads around here and other forums or groups or even gone on to elaborate on my own etc to better my own feelings for a better expression of what it is I want to convey. Practice makes perfect is an old saying.

Again, if you have a question please share.

Or are you creating a kind of "I am quantum/anonymous" internet persona, and do this as a fun thing and to mess with peoples' minds? I honestly can't tell.

I'm trying to express my thoughts and I use texticons, words, sentences, links/URL's to graphics etc..in attempt to offer various ways of communicating ideas.

When you go to a public bathroom you may find they sometimes use a picto-graph to represent female( xX ) or male( Xy ), on bathroom doors and you may find that, they use slight differrent picto-graphs in differrent public places.

<< (>)(*Y*)(<) <<

(><) = IN, INward, gravity is and INward attractive contractive essential bosonic force of nature, or so it is presumed to be by many in scientific community, even tho it is has never been quantized or quantified, like many other forces have been ex the photon has been observed via the electron, the graviton has not.

(**) = biological awareness ergo a temporal awareness of << past and future << flow of time that we then use our mind/intellect to conceptualize as the arrow-of-time. John Gribbon( 1980's) was first time heard of the 'arrow-of-time' in print.

Y = in the above I'm using Y to represent spirit-2 and specifically spirit-2 as being radiative) OUTward i.e. we radiate OUTward our spirit-2 and spirit-1.

What is hard for humans to get their heads around, is NOW, or present or whatever resides between those two lines ")(" between past and future.

For now I put that aside as it is difficult to grasp but Ive elaborated greatly on it on other threads around here.

<< OUT-spirited )( IN-spirited <<

So now we come to OUT-spirited and IN-spirited.

To begin our lives as a independent individual human, we need to become IN-spirited and in this case I'm refering to our first IN-ward breath of oxygen, for without the first INward breath of oxygen, we do not exist as independently existent, individual organism( biological life ).

As for the OUT-spirited being on the "past" side of the directional arrow or flow-of-time, then I think it should be obvious that first we breath IN our first breath then we breath OUT our last breath and then we have past aka passed or passed away and we are now regarded to be in the past.

I would love to go into the space )( between past and future as that actually may be where most people believe any alledged free will occurs.

I will leave you with this << past << )|( << future <<

In this picto-graphic-like scenario, the single | line is representative of any 2D planar existence. A 2D cross section--- equaltorial bisection --- of our finite occupied space Universe anywhere at anytime.

I hope that helps you to understand these relatively simple texticonic symbols meanings, at least within the context of how I used this time.

Gravity binds and coheres our finite occupied Universe as integral whole.

Free will is causally deterministic at the gravitational scales there is only order and disorder is only the inability of mind/intellect to ingrate the current set of environmental circumstances. imho

r6

[Baile]

Free will is causally deterministic at the gravitational scales there is only order and disorder is only the inability of mind/intellect to ingrate the current set of environmental circumstances. imhoOkay, thanks for all that.

Free will is causally deterministic at the gravitational scales. I don't understand that at all given I have no idea what "gravitational scales" means. Generally, I would say all discussion regarding free will is interesting but ultimately pointless theorizing. I know the sky is blue because that's the experience of life. I know who my mother and father are because that's the experience of life. Likewise, I know I am free to apply or not apply my will in any situation that arises, because that's what I experience in life. To speculate beyond the certainty of our human experience is the equivalent of a fun little mind exercise, one that has no bearing whatsoever on the much deeper, and much more relevant, wisdom and truth that's inherent in experiential reality.

There is only order and disorder. Again, human experience tells us there are a lot of grey areas between those two extremes. And if life teaches us anything, it's that extremism in any form is a recipe for disaster: it creates illness, war, hatred, etc. But in general, yes, I agree. The world and the universe appear by nature to run on something we could call order. Or well-ordered chaos.

[r6r6]

Baile--}Okay, thanks for all that.

Sure welcome.



Free will is causally deterministic at the gravitational scales. I don't understand that at all given I have no idea what "gravitational scales" means.

Sorry for poor grammar and typing attention.

Gravitational level = ultra-micro/small.

Causality = cause and effect ergo deterministice Universe means there is only order. Disorder is only our inability to integrated our environmental circumstances temporarily at some times.


Generally, I would say all discussion regarding free will is interesting but ultimately pointless theorizing.

There are limits to what a persons free will can do to pull a plane out of downward spiral tailspin.

But in general, yes, I agree. The world and the universe appear by nature to run on something we could call order. Or well-ordered chaos.

Well good then you and I are in agreement on orderly Universe seems to be the underlying underpenning underlayment that we are underinformed about....Ha ha :wink:

r6

[wstein]

Indeed it is: What I have been trying to explain is mainly that I find great elegance in the way that the universe is set up as to make it impossible for science to make a final statement about free will. Obviously its your belief which of course no one can argue with. What I am saying is that your 'justification' (AKA evidence) supplied does not support nor refute that conclusion.

[Mazulu]

Free-will is deterministic in the same way that quantum systems are deterministic. You can choose anything you like in the moment, but averaged out over a life-time you have to exert your WILL if you want to do better than your karma, your fate.

[r6r6]

[QUOTE=r6r6r]
<< (>)(*Y*)(<) <<[QUOTE]
Come to think of it, this is good one also;

(*)(*) = biological contemplating what exist between past and future...ha ha...:D

(**) = biological awareness

*)|(* = virtual biological contemplating finite 2D planar existence between past and future...:smile:

*)(* = a virtual biological--- not real biological --- contemplating a virtual reality between past and future?

(>) = gravity

(>)B(*Y*)B(<) wherein 'B' = the buffer-zone of an indetermintate nature ergo non-observed connection between gravity and our observed reality as biologicals composed of spirit-2.

r6

[Mazulu]

[QUOTE=r6r6r]
<< (>)(*Y*)(<) <<[QUOTE]
Come to think of it, this is good one also;

(*)(*) = biological contemplating what exist between past and future...ha ha...:D

(**) = biological awareness

*)|(* = virtual biological contemplating finite 2D planar existence between past and future...:smile:

*)(* = a virtual biological--- not real biological --- contemplating a virtual reality between past and future?

(>) = gravity

(>)B(*Y*)B(<) wherein 'B' = the buffer-zone of an indetermintate nature ergo non-observed connection between gravity and our observed reality as biologicals composed of spirit-2.

r6

I think this is the last whimper of a dying philosophy called atheism. It made no sense when it was alive, nobody really believed it, and its last supporter has uttered such meaningless nonsense that it deserves no further thought.

[sarek]

Obviously its your belief which of course no one can argue with. What I am saying is that your 'justification' (AKA evidence) supplied does not support nor refute that conclusion.

Exactly, its only a belief. Or rather, a working hypothesis which I can use until I obtain better understanding, preferably experiential.

[sarek]

Free-will is deterministic in the same way that quantum systems are deterministic. You can choose anything you like in the moment, but averaged out over a life-time you have to exert your WILL if you want to do better than your karma, your fate.

Exactly that, quoting for truth.

[Baile]

Obviously its your belief which of course no one can argue with. What I am saying is that your 'justification' (AKA evidence) supplied does not support nor refute that conclusion.The comment you quoted was mine, yes, but they are not my words or my "belief." I was quoting sarek. I was supporting him in his response to your first post. You seem to want to argue that sarek is incorrectly concluding that will is predetermined. Yes, he said free will is predetermined. But he also made it clear that it was simply a working thesis and that ultimately we cannot know the truth one way or the other, and that's what I was pointing out.

[Baile]

I think this is the last whimper of a dying philosophy called atheism. It made no sense when it was alive, nobody really believed it, and its last supporter has uttered such meaningless nonsense that it deserves no further thought.Two things: Could you explain how you made the leap that any of this has to do with atheism, and why it is you would choose to introduce such an divisive discussion point into this conversation? Or did I miss the part of the discussion where quantum mechanics has to do with peoples' specific religious beliefs? Second, I've asked the moderators for clarification regarding the rules for posting. I want to know if calling someone's post "meaningless nonsense that deserves no further thought" is allowed.

[r6r6]

Causality = cause and effect ergo deterministic Universe means there is only order. Disorder is only our inability to integrate our environmental circumstances temporarily at some times.

Aka << past arrow-of-time << ie. we cannot return to the womb.

It also means that our thoughts are predetermined ultra-micro gravities ahdherence to cause and effect determinism.

r6r6r}---All realities--- universes ---are connected minimally by gravity i.e. we live in one finite, occupied space Universe, that, is eternally deterministically cause and effect operating minimally by the ultra-micro complex set of gravitational interrelationships as the underlying essence. imho

"U"niverse = "G"od{ ess }
--------------------------------------------
Universe = God{ ess }

The Great Mama-- X --
...eternally reproducing quanta aka mutiplication-by-division ergo xyxyxyxy...

The Great Spirit-- Y --
...quanta divergent and convergently appearing....

The Great Illusion
...no solids except as the finite, subdivided plane/polygon...

The Cosmos.....etc....
...Carl Sagan, in memorial( recalling patterns of existence )....

*)(* = virtual, or 2D wave-linear or perhaps even ghostly for those who believe in ghosts, contemplation of that which exists between past and future.

*)|(* = 2D wave-linear, contemplation of 2D equatorial bisection of our finite 3D + time Universe.

Contemplation is the differrnetial catagorizing of the eternally existent, as the eternal repeating patterns of recall.

Recall = cause and effect reproductions eternally.

Free-will is the superficially appearing, application of past patterns, into present environment circumstances, and most often, in regards to anticipation of possible future scenarios.

Quanta = discrete phenomena, that, are only superficially discrete from gravitiesomni-embracive, interrelated binding of total, finite whole, as an integral whole.

Universe = one verse that, at most may become two seeming left and right universes, with a seemingly subidivided, triangular based--- Z -- 2D plane of existence between the two, that in reality, inherently splits itself--- asymmetry ---with a 2:1 ratio.

I.e. 2 parts of the subdivison infold to left or right universe, and 1 part infolds into the other left or right universe. This whole scenario is best accounted for at some alledge heat death of Universe sometime in the future.

That leaves one aspect, of the triangular based sudidivided plane, that is shared by both left and right universe's. Here again we find a 2D plane that can also be likened to the 2D planar bisection of our finite occupied space Universe.

O = left skew universe

Z = sudivided triangular based, superficially appearing, 2D plane/polygon

O = right skew universe

OZO

Replace Z with S and we have Spirit-2 as the heat death 2:1 ratioed reality.

OSO

Or replace it with | as the illusionary, equaltorial bisection of our finite occupied space Universe, as coordinated with arrow/flow-of-time << past < OUT )|(IN < future <<

O|O

r6

[Baile]

Contemplation is the differrnetial catagorizing of the eternally existent, as the eternal repeating patterns of recall.

Free-will is the superficially appearing, application of past patterns, into present environment circumstances, and most often, in regards to anticipation of possible future scenarios.Past patterns of behavior mirroring the repeating patterns of the eternal. As above, so below. Now that makes total sense to me. That's an inspired and informed view of reality.

Universe = one verse that, at most may become two seeming left and right universesWhy only two? That seems entirely arbitrary. Once spiritual theory digresses into one particular set of hardened facts and figures, it becomes dogma and doctrine. And it's no longer insightful in any way.

[r6r6]

Baile}--Past patterns of behavior mirroring the repeating patterns of the eternal. As above, so below. Now that makes total sense to me. That's an inspired and informed view of reality.

Hi Baile, well good we appear to agree on 2nd item/idea/scenario.

Why only two? That seems entirely arbitrary. Once spiritual theory digresses into one particular set of hardened facts and figures, it becomes dogma and doctrine. And it's no longer insightful in any way.


I can elaborate on the "why only two" tangental and/ or overlapping universe's but I dont think that is appropriate for me in this thread.

I recommend you go to my thread:

"OZO Time / Spirit - Wave - Cycle - 720"

Located in the "philosophy and theory" topics.

It has to do with some non-arbitrary geometrical based patterns ergo a branch of mathematical studies.

Happy to converse with you there inn these latter regards.

r6

[Baile]

I can elaborate on the "why only two" tangental and/ or overlapping universe's but I dont think that is appropriate for me in this thread.

I recommend you go to my thread:Okay, thanks. I'm not saying you're wrong and I probably should have worded that differently. I understand mathematics is a fundamental aspect of physical existence, and it makes sense that only certain and specific mathematical realities might be possible.

[r6r6]

So what. All realities--- universes ---are connected minimally by gravity-- check with David Deutsch on that one also --- i.e. we live in one finite, occupied space Universe, that, is eternally deterministically cause and effect minimally by the ultra-micro and ultra-micro complex set of gravitational interrelationships as the underlying essence. imho


At most we have two tangental universe's confunctioning as one finite, occupied space, Universe within context of heat death of Universe scenario:

O = left skew universe
Z or S or | as ultra-large, low frequency, low amplitude photon
O = right skew universe

imho. r6

[Mazulu]

If a quantum system can manifest eigenstates at random, does that quantum system have free will? The answer will demonstrate how we do have free will.

If there really was a life form that existed as a quantum field, that could manifest itself; if it had enough energy it could choose which eigenstate(s) to manifest, would it have free will?

[Visitor]

A side story:
I was staying at my aunties place. We were isolated from any town. And she was preparing Christmas Eve dinner for arriving family.
That morning I told my auntie about a dream I had of her receiving a silver teapot.
I described every detail, because the dream was so vivid.
After Christmas dinner, presents got passed around. I watched the reply of my dream, exactly how it unfolded, except for one thing, I was viewing it from a different position in the room.

I was in shock, my concept of time just flew out the window.
Also my concept of free-will was challenged.
From this, it occurred to my that there is predestination with options of changing along the way.

[Mazulu]

A side story:
I was staying at my aunties place. We were isolated from any town. And she was preparing Christmas Eve dinner for arriving family.
That morning I told my auntie about a dream I had of her receiving a silver teapot.
I described every detail, because the dream was so vivid.
After Christmas dinner, presents got passed around. I watched the reply of my dream, exactly how it unfolded, except for one thing, I was viewing it from a different position in the room.

I was in shock, my concept of time just flew out the window.
Also my concept of free-will was challenged.
From this, it occurred to my that there is predestination with options of changing along the way.

So you saw the future. I have heard of people seeing the future in the astral plane. It is certainly possible. There is no conflict with free-will because if you see the future, because someone was thinking about it or planning, and then they change their mind, it just means that your view of the future will be incorrect. But it is definitely interesting that you saw the future. :smile:

[r6r6]

At most we have two tangental universe's confunctioning as one finite, occupied space, Universe within context of heat death of Universe scenario:

Or two overlapping universe's to whatever degree. Remember, the higher the frequency the less Euclidean and more geodesic-like Rieman curvature they will have.

I.e. a perfect sphere only exists as metaphyical-1 concept, and same goes for 2D planar circle.

High frequency polgons and polyhedra approach perfecton but are never so. imho.

One Universe, as two tangental or overlapping, most.

r6

[Gracey]

A side story:
I was staying at my aunties place. We were isolated from any town. And she was preparing Christmas Eve dinner for arriving family.
That morning I told my auntie about a dream I had of her receiving a silver teapot.
I described every detail, because the dream was so vivid.
After Christmas dinner, presents got passed around. I watched the reply of my dream, exactly how it unfolded, except for one thing, I was viewing it from a different position in the room.

I was in shock, my concept of time just flew out the window.
Also my concept of free-will was challenged.
From this, it occurred to my that there is predestination with options of changing along the way.

I dream of the future with great detail on a regular basis, for decades now. For the longest time I have struggled to believe in the concept of free will for many many years. After a recent experience, I currently think that things can change. I got some science formulas in the works to try and explain it.

[Mazulu]

I dream of the future with great detail on a regular basis, for decades now. For the longest time I have struggled to believe in the concept of free will for many many years. After a recent experience, I currently think that things can change. I got some science formulas in the works to try and explain it.
If science told you that you had free-will, what would you do with it that you can't do now?

There is a problem with the scientific conception of free will. Science is the ability to predict what a system will do. But human decision-making is often unpredictable. It's too complex to predict. And the things that really drive human behavior, our feelings, are completely outside the realm of science. Even if science could detect our feelings, sometimes we make decisions that are based on something of a higher order than mere feelings.

[Gracey]

If science told you that you had free-will, what would you do with it that you can't do now?

There is a problem with the scientific conception of free will. Science is the ability to predict what a system will do. But human decision-making is often unpredictable. It's too complex to predict. And the things that really drive human behavior, our feelings, are completely outside the realm of science. Even if science could detect our feelings, sometimes we make decisions that are based on something of a higher order than mere feelings.
I am currently reading a book on the human brain and I learned that feelings are produced in our brains in order to conserve energy in our brains thinking process. Based on this book where technology is taking us via our brains, our reality is going to change immensely. The book is called "The future of the mind" by Kaku. If anything, it will get you thinking.

[Mazulu]

I am currently reading a book on the human brain and I learned that feelings are produced in our brains in order to conserve energy in our brains thinking process. Based on this book where technology is taking us via our brains, our reality is going to change immensely. The book is called "The future of the mind" by Kaku. If anything, it will get you thinking.
It sounds really interesting.

[whoguy423]

Hi all and the All,

My thoughts bout this.... Free will and QM, ofcourse they are related since our brains run on electrons, influenced by chemical, structural and genetic factors as individuals. Electrons are definately governed by QM effects!!!! NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

But all this gibberish ya da ya da.... Humans as a collective behave no different to a herd of dangerous buffalos or a pride of lions. Humans are mostly driven by EGO (survival, greed ya da....). Every so often there is a rarity of Goodness done out of Spirit (self sacrifice... ya da)

All the rest is just bull dust!!!

[Mazulu]

But all this gibberish ya da ya da.... Humans as a collective behave no different to a herd of dangerous buffalos or a pride of lions. Humans are mostly driven by EGO (survival, greed ya da....). Every so often there is a rarity of Goodness done out of Spirit (self sacrifice... ya da)

All the rest is just bull dust!!!

I think people behave the way they're told that they should behave. If we're told that we should behave with care and love, most of us will. If we're told that we should behave violently, like in some countries, we will. It's good to strive to be good people, because those are going to be the people who we live with in our neighborhoods, at work, on the bus, and in our daily lives.

[whoguy423]

I think people behave the way they're told that they should behave.

Yep... you got that right Mazulu!!! Those in power ( The Rich, The Pollies who listen to the rich, The Media who do thy bidding of the rich... etc) want all of us to behave in such ways for their benefit.... we are nothing but mindless cattle always tugging at the noose round our necks.

Is there a way out??? Possibly... with free and infinite power just round the block, this may become a reality.

[sarek]

Hi all and the All,

My thoughts bout this.... Free will and QM, ofcourse they are related since our brains run on electrons, influenced by chemical, structural and genetic factors as individuals. Electrons are definately governed by QM effects!!!! NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

But all this gibberish ya da ya da.... Humans as a collective behave no different to a herd of dangerous buffalos or a pride of lions. Humans are mostly driven by EGO (survival, greed ya da....). Every so often there is a rarity of Goodness done out of Spirit (self sacrifice... ya da)

All the rest is just bull dust!!!

You are quite right about the herd mentality and ego. This is why its so important to become self aware and see ourselves with inner sincerity so that we can identify the various EGO programs running inside of us.

Only then can we (re)gain contact with our conscious free will.

[r6r6]

Ego = "I" and is metaphysical-- i.e. mind/intellect/concept ---resultant of our sensorial feelings as positive and negative charges.

I-ness is conceptual inflection or inflexion

U-ness in conceptual uninflected, non-inflected, exflection or exflexion, outflexion, exflection.

The concept is unchanging( absolute ) but what that which is being inflected or uninflected upon is ever changing, or a least for the time period of living existence( life span ). imho

r6

[bartholomew]

Under traditional physics, there is no escape from the fact that our will is pre-determined and therefore not free.
Under quantum mechanics, at first sight one would think this to be different. Our will is not pre determined in the sense that we do not know in advance which processes will happen in certain areas of our brain.
However, its easy to see that randomness does not equate to free will either. Rather, it is absence of will, it is pure chance.

Consider, however, the following.

As the All that Is is equal to Nothing, this means there can not be a net amount of time. If there were there would be "something" other than nothing. From the point of view of the All, time does not exist.

This means that from that POV, there is no "timespace" between present and future.

Our human perception is limited. We perceive linear time, and as such quantum mechanics presents us with unpredictability.
Every time a quantum effect occurs and a measurement is made, the multitude of possible outcomes collapses into only one.

There is a philosophy within quantum mechanics that says that all the other possible choices, that haven't materialised in our timeline, are still out there in branched timelines. This is called the many world hypothesis.

Let us now observe an experiment conducted from the POV of a timeless observer.
The same experiment is conducted not just once (our timeline) but many times (the many worlds).

Subsequently, and from our POV after the fact the best outcome is chosen by the experimenter.

It is important to see that for us, humans, there is no way to see that the experiment has been rigged because the outcome we observe is still an outcome within the range of all possible random outcomes. We do not see any aberrations or impossibilities.

Still, Will has been exercised! But its not our own free will, it is the will of the timeless experimenter.

So, what if our higher self, or God, or Brahman or whatever we may call it, is that timeless experimenter?

Personally, i find it rather intriguing that we just may be living in a universe that is set up in such a way as to make it fundamentally impossible for us to determine if there really is free will or not.


I've read something very similar before...

What you propose sounds like a report that has existed for quite a while in which the arcane aspects of mind are explained in terms of the relationships between time and elemental particles.

There certainly is a hard relationship 'tween these two. Specifically as we delve further and deeper into the origins of physical matter we find that time as slowed. It is this fact (whether or not it is recognized by mathematicians) that changes the straight lines of static anaylsis to the curves of the dynamic corresponences.

When considering the interactions of mind as it might be in a time flow variable field, if there is naught but matter, however small the bits, we can easily see that probabilities now can be used to sort things out. At the other end of this computation are revealed the choices as well as the one that we chose. All together neatly bound.

The above is pretty straightforward. What is less so is that which is yet to be dealt with. You speak of this factor using the term "timeless experimenter". Now we have left the realm of physics and gone where no math can follow. Going farther we find that we understand the question that Einstein had. We realize why he had made up his mind that there was something else he called a "universal field" into which all else would key. A single coherant package with no loose ends.

All of the above is in the realm(s) of the objective. Although wildly dynamic what is known is only a base from which new avenues will be discovered. The physicist is at the point beyond which the physical universe yields to the spiritual one that supports (informs) it. Only those who are free of preconcieved, limiting ideas can pass. Einstein knew it had to be there but attemped to define it in terms of the mathematics which had served so well before.

There is more, much more to creation. The physical universe is only one result. Attempts to define and explain the greater aspects to conscienceness (for example) will have to wait until science develops a new mathematics equal to the task. Quantum physics has revealed to us the fact of energy. More specifically that all is energy. OK. The next step is to begin to realize that energy is of many variations. The energy of the quark is not the energy of the place where the timeless experimenter resides. They are much different.

The energy of the quantum physicist, compared to the energy found on the mental plane, is inelligant, coarse and heavy. When the true nature of energy is studied this and much more will become known.

We have to begin by allowing for a monent that the easterners are correct when they say that creation is a series of fields, each both seperate from the others but all interacting. Imagine the earth with numerous concentric shells. The physical is the lowest and is matter. The etheric is next. It is matter too but the timeflow here is much slower than in the lower plane. Next is the astral then the mental and there are others. Seven major ones in all. Looking at all seven we find that the time which is fo our familiar physical matter is not constant because the mediums changes as we move outward from the earth. To shorten this point up lets just say that the presumed free choice that a man has while on earth is seen from the seventh plane as a pre-determined action. The religious will wonder that God gives us free choice but that He, being all powerful and knowing all things, will already know how we will choose. Here we have a metaphor for the timeless experimenter. The timelessness is that of the seventh plane (heaven) and the experimenter is the much needed entity without which any hope of explaination would be lost forever. Back to the religious. God (who is on the highest plane) exists in a timeless field. Since there is no timeflow at all to hamper observation it is seen how we really do have free choice and that there is no conflict between this and the fact that God knows how we will choose. There is no "before and after" in the mind of God because He exists "where" there is no timeline at all.

Now we have seen the "timeless experimenter" although the experimenting part may be not quite the right word. We've left out considerations of reason though. Why all of this? That's too much for this forum.

Quantum physics then is correct as you relate it. In any situation our choice options are finite. We select one "branch" and off we go. It is reasonable to suppose that in a finite universe we are finite beings.

Physics deals with physical matter and yet it allows that all is energy. The next step for theorists will be the study of energy. Not physical energy but energies as they exist on the other subtle planes that correspond with the physical. It is for this that a new math is needed. It is this, I believe, that Einstein sought.

I am not trying to say you are wrong and that I am a big know it all or anything like that. On the contrary. The only part in your statement that I find inclusive is the experimenter. Everything else is quite plain and easy to understand.

The next part is as regards the human mind. I'll just do a short paragraph here. The mind is in two parts. First is that which results from the brain. Here we see genetics, physical condition and experience as modifiers. This is the finite mind. It is of the body/personality. It dies when the body passes. Second is the mind of the human soul. This is our higher, abstract, mind. It is not of the body. It is not dependent upon nor is it subservient to the body. It is not temporal. The human soul is what we all are in essence. Souls are of the mental plane in creation. They are made of mental matter. Their energy is mental energy (different from physical energy). The mental plane is, with the earth as a baseline, the fourth plane out into the concentric circles. The reason humans are capable of abstract thought, the reason they can dream and visualize, is because of the existence of the higher mind (soul).

Science has determined that there are areas in the brain that seem to be responsible for this "high mind" but these are only connecting points which exist so that the soul mind can connect with the body.

May I digress and relate to you the out of body experiences of so many? Many of these claim to have floated around the hospital listening in on conversations and so on when their bodies were clinically dead. The reason this can happen is the fact that the soul mind is always active. Whether or not the body is dead makes no difference because the soul mind is only connected to the brain. It is not of the brain. I mention this to strengthen the idea of the existence of much more in creation than the physical universe.

Eventually science will prove the soul. When this happens so much will be apparent. Until that time faith is required. But combine faith with determination and fearlessness, get rid of limiting pre-conceptions and watch the doors to knowledge open wide.

Just like in Star Trek we will then go where no (occidental) man has gone before.

So... Yes viewed from the physical plane where time flows fast there is free will but No when viewed from the highest plane where time does not exist. There is no conflict in any of this. It makes perfect sense. It answers all objections.

Sorry for the length of this answer. It's too long to proof read so also pardon whatever typos may be found.

[whoguy423]

Hi all,

Wasn't there a scientist who measured the mass of the body before and after passing and found the human soul weighs 7 pennies???

Therefore, the soul exists.... ha ha ha

[bartholomew]

Hi all,

Wasn't there a scientist who measured the mass of the body before and after passing and found the human soul weighs 7 pennies???

Therefore, the soul exists.... ha ha ha



Yes. Only It was not the soul that was being measured but the ethereal body which is almost as dense as the physical.

[lemex]

No, it doesn't discount that possibility. However, consider this:

If our brains run purely on classical rules of physics we are predetermined. There's no two ways about that.

If our brains run partially or completely on quantum mechanical principles (ie if microscopic quantum effect are significantly felt in the macroscopic world) then we still do not have free will because in that situation our will would be randomised. Random is not predetermined, but it is not real will either. Its just, random.

From our one dimensional temporal POV we can by definition not see will in a random process.
In order to see will, you would need a higher dimensional vantage point.

Perhaps to clarify my ideas: I arrived at this standpoint in July last year. At that point I had not begun actively engaging in spirituality. Shortly after that I began reading Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous which pretty much confirmed to me that I had been on the right track. It established for me that aforementioned "experimenter" is in fact our higher consciousness.

A way to understand this is to say you always have the option for free-will, only that it doesn't materialize. In the quantum field, chance is a weighted occurance which says the likelihood is probable, greater at some point (based on what went before it). Therefore change is as well, the 2 c's. IOW the opposite will not happen because the tendency is it won't happen. The odds are greater if it preexisted, you don't break the thought. The influence of its neighbor. Stability is so important. Randomness is an illusion. There is always order and a reason.

[Lorelyen]

There is only order and disorder. Again, human experience tells us there are a lot of grey areas between those two extremes. And if life teaches us anything, it's that extremism in any form is a recipe for disaster: it creates illness, war, hatred, etc. But in general, yes, I agree. The world and the universe appear by nature to run on something we could call order. Or well-ordered chaos.

I also questioned that in terms of the original hypothesis of quantum mechanics applied to "free will" It seemed to be quantisation carried to the extreme where it became simply binary and Boolean. It's somewhat word-spinning in which case one also asks if they're mutually exclusive or not? If not it simplifies the maths considerably.

I fall in agreement with your comment.

...

[sarek]

I've read something very similar before...

What you propose sounds like a report that has existed for quite a while in which the arcane aspects of mind are explained in terms of the relationships between time and elemental particles.

There certainly is a hard relationship 'tween these two. Specifically as we delve further and deeper into the origins of physical matter we find that time as slowed. It is this fact (whether or not it is recognized by mathematicians) that changes the straight lines of static anaylsis to the curves of the dynamic corresponences.

When considering the interactions of mind as it might be in a time flow variable field, if there is naught but matter, however small the bits, we can easily see that probabilities now can be used to sort things out. At the other end of this computation are revealed the choices as well as the one that we chose. All together neatly bound.

The above is pretty straightforward. What is less so is that which is yet to be dealt with. You speak of this factor using the term "timeless experimenter". Now we have left the realm of physics and gone where no math can follow. Going farther we find that we understand the question that Einstein had. We realize why he had made up his mind that there was something else he called a "universal field" into which all else would key. A single coherant package with no loose ends.

All of the above is in the realm(s) of the objective. Although wildly dynamic what is known is only a base from which new avenues will be discovered. The physicist is at the point beyond which the physical universe yields to the spiritual one that supports (informs) it. Only those who are free of preconcieved, limiting ideas can pass. Einstein knew it had to be there but attemped to define it in terms of the mathematics which had served so well before.

There is more, much more to creation. The physical universe is only one result. Attempts to define and explain the greater aspects to conscienceness (for example) will have to wait until science develops a new mathematics equal to the task. Quantum physics has revealed to us the fact of energy. More specifically that all is energy. OK. The next step is to begin to realize that energy is of many variations. The energy of the quark is not the energy of the place where the timeless experimenter resides. They are much different.

The energy of the quantum physicist, compared to the energy found on the mental plane, is inelligant, coarse and heavy. When the true nature of energy is studied this and much more will become known.

We have to begin by allowing for a monent that the easterners are correct when they say that creation is a series of fields, each both seperate from the others but all interacting. Imagine the earth with numerous concentric shells. The physical is the lowest and is matter. The etheric is next. It is matter too but the timeflow here is much slower than in the lower plane. Next is the astral then the mental and there are others. Seven major ones in all. Looking at all seven we find that the time which is fo our familiar physical matter is not constant because the mediums changes as we move outward from the earth. To shorten this point up lets just say that the presumed free choice that a man has while on earth is seen from the seventh plane as a pre-determined action. The religious will wonder that God gives us free choice but that He, being all powerful and knowing all things, will already know how we will choose. Here we have a metaphor for the timeless experimenter. The timelessness is that of the seventh plane (heaven) and the experimenter is the much needed entity without which any hope of explaination would be lost forever. Back to the religious. God (who is on the highest plane) exists in a timeless field. Since there is no timeflow at all to hamper observation it is seen how we really do have free choice and that there is no conflict between this and the fact that God knows how we will choose. There is no "before and after" in the mind of God because He exists "where" there is no timeline at all.

Now we have seen the "timeless experimenter" although the experimenting part may be not quite the right word. We've left out considerations of reason though. Why all of this? That's too much for this forum.

Quantum physics then is correct as you relate it. In any situation our choice options are finite. We select one "branch" and off we go. It is reasonable to suppose that in a finite universe we are finite beings.

Physics deals with physical matter and yet it allows that all is energy. The next step for theorists will be the study of energy. Not physical energy but energies as they exist on the other subtle planes that correspond with the physical. It is for this that a new math is needed. It is this, I believe, that Einstein sought.

I am not trying to say you are wrong and that I am a big know it all or anything like that. On the contrary. The only part in your statement that I find inclusive is the experimenter. Everything else is quite plain and easy to understand.

The next part is as regards the human mind. I'll just do a short paragraph here. The mind is in two parts. First is that which results from the brain. Here we see genetics, physical condition and experience as modifiers. This is the finite mind. It is of the body/personality. It dies when the body passes. Second is the mind of the human soul. This is our higher, abstract, mind. It is not of the body. It is not dependent upon nor is it subservient to the body. It is not temporal. The human soul is what we all are in essence. Souls are of the mental plane in creation. They are made of mental matter. Their energy is mental energy (different from physical energy). The mental plane is, with the earth as a baseline, the fourth plane out into the concentric circles. The reason humans are capable of abstract thought, the reason they can dream and visualize, is because of the existence of the higher mind (soul).

Science has determined that there are areas in the brain that seem to be responsible for this "high mind" but these are only connecting points which exist so that the soul mind can connect with the body.

May I digress and relate to you the out of body experiences of so many? Many of these claim to have floated around the hospital listening in on conversations and so on when their bodies were clinically dead. The reason this can happen is the fact that the soul mind is always active. Whether or not the body is dead makes no difference because the soul mind is only connected to the brain. It is not of the brain. I mention this to strengthen the idea of the existence of much more in creation than the physical universe.

Eventually science will prove the soul. When this happens so much will be apparent. Until that time faith is required. But combine faith with determination and fearlessness, get rid of limiting pre-conceptions and watch the doors to knowledge open wide.

Just like in Star Trek we will then go where no (occidental) man has gone before.

So... Yes viewed from the physical plane where time flows fast there is free will but No when viewed from the highest plane where time does not exist. There is no conflict in any of this. It makes perfect sense. It answers all objections.

Sorry for the length of this answer. It's too long to proof read so also pardon whatever typos may be found.

You got it, that is absolutely perfectly worded.