Mer-Ka-Ba

[God-Like]

Hi Guys ..

Something that has come up a few times in my meditation so if anyone has anything to add I will appreciate it . I only related merkaba to a crystal lol, and that was as far as my thoughts on it went .

I looked it up as you do and was interested in what I read ..

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/sep2/merkaba.htm


The Mer-Ka-Ba is alive. It is a living field, not a purely mechanical field of energy. Because it is a living field, it responds to human thought and feeling, which is the way to connect to the field. So the ''computer'' that guides the Mer-Ka-Ba is the human mind and heart. The possibilities are endless.

At a certain and specific moment (not necessarily in this lifetime), a person's Mer-Ka-Ba field can become alive. When this happens, an electro-magnetic change occurs which results in a disc of energy that comes out from a tiny place near the base of the spine and quickly expands to about 27 to 30 feet in radius around the body.

x daz x

[Saggi]

So, that's what it is!!

Thanks God-Like, I was wondering,,, :tongue:

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

[7luminaries]

Hey Daz...fascinating and very timely...in Kabbalah, it is said that Isaac activated this through prayer on behalf of Rebecca, in direct communication with God and his inner being, in order to manifest a miracle on her behalf which would allow her to bear children. But also in right living generally. His gift was finding the channels (the waters) beneath the surface, and digging wells to water replenish the earth.

Here are some quotes from your link that struck me...

It was believed in ancient times, and even written about by the Hebrews,[2], that the Merkavah could be turned on by certain principles in meditation. This involves breathing changes, and mind, heart, and body changes that alter the way a person perceives the Reality. From my perspective, it is the beginning of ''Enlightenment.''

And yet it is clear that the Mer-Ka-Ba can also be ''activated,'' as the New Agers say, by other methods beside the male-style instructions using the breathing changes mentioned above. It can also become functional through methods that are purely female. Through the true living of qualities such as love, faith, trust, truth, and compassion, the Mer-Ka-Ba can spontaneously become alive. In other words, very pure human character can translate into a living Mer-Ka-Ba field around the person, even if that person doesn't initially know it is there.

And yes, absolutely, the Mer-Ka-Ba is alive. It is a living field, not a purely mechanical field of energy. Because it is a living field, it responds to human thought and feeling, which is the way to connect to the field. So the ''computer'' that guides the Mer-Ka-Ba is the human mind and heart. The possibilities are endless.

This bit above reminded me of Isaac, who brought forth his chariot through prayer and love and the way of the heart.

At a certain and specific moment (not necessarily in this lifetime), a person's Mer-Ka-Ba field can become alive. When this happens, an electro-magnetic change occurs which results in a disc of energy that comes out from a tiny place near the base of the spine and quickly expands to about 27 to 30 feet in radius around the body. This disc can easily be perceived by scientific means, and if the United States Airforce is correct it can be put up on their computer screens via satellite. In other words, the military can see people who activate their Mer-Ka-Bas, and watch as they move around the surface of the Earth.

Since the number of people who have done this is now in the millions, it is a fairly common sight now. It is the enormous magnetic burst that results from the disc expanding that brings attention to itself. This can easily be made invisible by people who activate their Mer-ka-Bas, if they so desire.


That is disturbing but not surprising. Hopefully any serious level of monitoring would reveal that these are people and not targets. LOL...

But regardless of government experimentation, Mother Earth, the human race, and we as individuals can profit from this understanding and knowledge. The remembering of the Mer-Ka-Ba is unfolding all over the world. From my point of view, this unfoldment is all part of the evolving cosmic DNA. The Mer-Ka-Ba will be remembered now because this is the time to remember.

Yes, I believe, as did almost all the ancient civilizations, that there are specific moments in the history of mankind where great jumps in human understanding take place, as in the ancient Sumerian, Egyptian, and Indus Valley civilizations.[3]

Now is the time to remember, and so we will. That resonates. I really do hope that this trend continues. And that we are able to add this era to the above list, perhaps even adding to their accomplishments in meaningful ways.

So, to close, I will say again: Your character is the key to your ascension. Regardless of who you are at this moment, good or bad, you can change your character. Like losing weight, it is completely within your control if you focus.

In changing yourself, your Mer-Ka-Ba can become alive. And once it is alive, everything is possible.

I agree that one's character and heart are key, really to almost anything.
We could also say, in finding yourself, or in being true to who you really are, you will be on your own path to ascension. And whatever you do to support yourself on your path, is in service to self in the truest sense.

Thank you for sharing :hug3:

Peace & blessings,
7L/Amanda

[Carwen*Angel]

Very interesting. One or two questions arise from it:

How does one consciously activate their Mer-Ka-Ba field?

Is it possible that one may have unconsciously activated it without realising through spiritual activity?

[God-Like]

So, that's what it is!!

XxXx

Lols Jo .. That's what I said .. :smile:


x daz x

[God-Like]

This bit above reminded me of Isaac, who brought forth his chariot through prayer and love and the way of the heart.



Hey :)

This bit interested me as I had a golden winged griffin in circle the day before merkaba came to mind in meditation .


As researched quote ''the four-wheeled vehicle driven by four hayyot ("living creatures"), each of which has four wings and the four faces of a man, lion, ox, and eagle''

Well the griffin is half lion and half eagle .

Very Interesting, it also jogged my memory of a channeled reading 4 or 5 years ago when she said when you are met with a pair of golden wings don't look back and go ... perhaps the griffin is coming for me .. Eeek!! lols ..


x daz x

[God-Like]

Very interesting. One or two questions arise from it:

How does one consciously activate their Mer-Ka-Ba field?

Is it possible that one may have unconsciously activated it without realising through spiritual activity?

I think Carwen that certain self energy related aspects are just automatically aligning and activating through a certain way of being .

However certain practices like meditation and yoga can help along the process, but I would say if one's heart isn't in it, then it's not going to happen to it's full capacity .

I think there needs the right ingredients for anything to happen ..

In regards to 'Is it possible that one may have unconsciously activated it without realising through spiritual activity' I would say yes, similar to the kundalini awakening but there are always tell tale signs but one doesn't always recognise them as being that .

One can't help notice difference within their energies though but perhaps just put down to something else .. (I did) .

x daz x

[Saggi]

Hey :)

This bit interested me as I had a golden winged griffin in circle the day before merkaba came to mind in meditation .


As researched quote ''the four-wheeled vehicle driven by four hayyot ("living creatures"), each of which has four wings and the four faces of a man, lion, ox, and eagle''

Well the griffin is half lion and half eagle .

Very Interesting, it also jogged my memory of a channeled reading 4 or 5 years ago when she said when you are met with a pair of golden wings don't look back and go ... perhaps the griffin is coming for me .. Eeek!! lols ..


x daz x

Your sharing just brought something to mind for me,,,

I've had a wee plastic griffin, on the ledge of my screen for a good while now,,,

I have no idea when it came from and I have no idea where it is now,,,

I recently moved rooms, yet, everything that was there is still there, except the griffin,,, :confused:

Hmmm,,,

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

[God-Like]

Your sharing just brought something to mind for me,,,

I've had a wee plastic griffin, on the ledge of my screen for a good while now,,,

I have no idea when it came from and I have no idea where it is now,,,

I recently moved rooms, yet, everything that was there is still there, except the griffin,,, :confused:

Hmmm,,,

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

Spooky music now playing in my head ... :D

x daz x

[God-Like]

Also adding on from what carwen angel spoke of and my reply to that is Bala .

Bala just came to mind so I looked it up .. Bala The Five Strengths (Sanskrit, Pali: pañca bala) in Buddhism are faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom. They are one of the seven sets of "qualities conducive to enlightenment." They are parallel facets of the five "spiritual faculties."


A few months ago I had Iman . Its most simple definition is the belief in the six articles of faith, known as arkān al-īmān. Iman must be accompanied by righteous deeds and the two together are necessary for entry into Paradise.

Something is pointing me along these lines at present .


x daz x

[God-Like]

I am on a roll woop woop ..

Something else interesting is that part of my meditation work, (well prior to meditation) I connect with the elements and draw up from the heart of the earth to my heart and the heart of the sun to my heart .

I have always worked on the chakras in some shape or form but needed to address the earth energy more than ever before over the last 6 months or so .

This link http://lightworkers.org/blog/110072/activating-and-programming-your-merkaba-light-body

Points out the meditation for activation is exactly that . scroll down to diagrams .

I don't believe in coincidence


oh and the flower of life in meditation is also what the link mentions .


x daz x

[Saggi]

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/27900000/The-Twilight-Zone-the-twilight-zone-27984305-498-500.jpg

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

[Rah nam]

Hi Guys ..

Something that has come up a few times in my meditation so if anyone has anything to add I will appreciate it . I only related merkaba to a crystal lol, and that was as far as my thoughts on it went .

I looked it up as you do and was interested in what I read ..

http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/sep2/merkaba.htm (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritofmaat.com%2 Farchive%2Fsep2%2Fmerkaba.htm)


The Mer-Ka-Ba is alive. It is a living field, not a purely mechanical field of energy. Because it is a living field, it responds to human thought and feeling, which is the way to connect to the field. So the ''computer'' that guides the Mer-Ka-Ba is the human mind and heart. The possibilities are endless.

At a certain and specific moment (not necessarily in this lifetime), a person's Mer-Ka-Ba field can become alive. When this happens, an electro-magnetic change occurs which results in a disc of energy that comes out from a tiny place near the base of the spine and quickly expands to about 27 to 30 feet in radius around the body.

x daz x

I talked to my "coach" the other day, she is non physical. And the Merkaba came up, because I asked, since what we where doing was not similar, but somehow it reminded me of what I have read about the Merkaba.
She laughed, and called it the mechanical one. All energies respond to intent, and the Merkaba is an instrument which enables the constructor to move through.
By the way, your bubble can be as big as you like, and it does not just extend from you base, at least this is not what you would like.
A natural "Merkaba" would extent out of a center between the heart and the throat. Not many have this center activated or are aware of it.

[God-Like]

I talked to my "coach" the other day, she is non physical. And the Merkaba came up, because I asked, since what we where doing was not similar, but somehow it reminded me of what I have read about the Merkaba.
She laughed, and called it the mechanical one. All energies respond to intent, and the Merkaba is an instrument which enables the constructor to move through.
By the way, your bubble can be as big as you like, and it does not just extend from you base, at least this is not what you would like.
A natural "Merkaba" would extent out of a center between the heart and the throat. Not many have this center activated or are aware of it.

Thanks for adding Rah nam, it is most interesting . :smile:


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Hey Daz :) this is from your 2nd link, above...

The Merkaba is an artificial geometric body that we can activate when we want to. This body is in the shape of a galaxy and its size is depended on our perception. If we can perceive/feel the whole universe, then we can enlarge our Merkaba so that it will contain the whole universe.

The Merkaba actually represents the way we perceive ourselves and the universe. This is how our perception limits the Merkaba: If we believe that we are multi dimensional beings, unhindered by time or space, then that is what will be and that is what our Markaba will be.

Since we are creators, and we can create what we want into our lives – The Merkaba will be a projection of our beliefs about our creation powers.
We can program the Merkaba using our logic, and then our Merkaba will be limited by our logic: If we will believe something is logical then the Merkaba will be able to do it.

If we believe that it isn’t logical – then our Merkaba will not be able to do it either.
This is why it’s better to program the Merkaba intuitively, using our feminine creative side. This way we avoid using our logical male side, and our Merkaba will be able to do anything, unhindered by time or space. The Merkaba will become an instrument, through which we can create the lives we want for our selves.


I think it's easier seen and felt than described, and I absolutely think it is linked to the heart-led consciousness, and that the resonance or "coherence" described within our system when we align and live by a heart-led consciousness is another way of describing this living vehicle, or chariot that extends from our centre.

Look at the pictures in these links from Heartmath.org...they are very powerful, I think, and they also are very similar to what you describe.

http://www.heartmath.org/free-services/articles-of-the-heart/each-individual-impacts-field-environment.html


http://store.heartmath.org/e-books/energetic-heart

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L/Amanda

[God-Like]

Hey Daz :)

I think it's easier seen and felt than described, and I absolutely think it is linked to the heart-led consciousness, and that the resonance or "coherence" described within our system when we align and live by a heart-led consciousness is another way of describing this living vehicle, or chariot that extends from our centre.



Hey .

I think for sure in that where anyone is coming from will reflect that in some shape or form within their energy field (Mer-ka-ba), the heart-led consciousness being one way to express self or (be) self .

I would say the heart-led Mer-ka-ba opens doors where the more logical intellectual mind-led doesn't .

Thanks for adding interesting links .

x daz x

[7luminaries]

Hey Dazzer :smile:...been off a few days & just saw this.

I would say the heart-led Mer-ka-ba opens doors where the more logical intellectual mind-led doesn't .

I thought your comment was interesting & wanted to hear more.
Just wanted to ask -- what doors would be (or could be) opened with the heart-led approach that would not (or could not?) be opened with the mind-led approach?

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L/Amanda

[God-Like]

Hey Dazzer :smile:...been off a few days & just saw this.



I thought your comment was interesting & wanted to hear more.
Just wanted to ask -- what doors would be (or could be) opened with the heart-led approach that would not (or could not?) be opened with the mind-led approach?

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L/Amanda


Hey :)


The intellectual doors that open will just present more intellectual understandings whereas the heart will open doors that present realizations that are beyond evaluation ..

x daz x

[Lunarvilly]

There is only one teaching that I know of that can truly give you access to this kind of information, and show you have to (permanently) activate your merkaba by going into the 'tiny space' in your heart - the center of true creation. This is the 'real deal'. I will be taking the workshop in April, in Leeds.

Drunvalo Melchizedek Presents The School of Remembering®

Greetings from Drunvalo

We here at One Lotus, are pleased to announce The School of Remembering®. My life's work will be presented in this school by Certified Teachers with a complete understanding of the human consciousness revolution that is now occurring. The training will go far beyond the Mer-Ka-Ba and is a living-ness process.

The Mer-Ka-Ba, including all possible forms of it in existence, needs to be connected within the body including the heart and brain with external connections that were not presented in earlier teachings. This is in order for human potential to reach the levels that are necessary for ascension to higher levels of consciousness. If you have only taken a Mer-Ka-Ba training, you have much, much more to realize.

By itself, the Mer-Ka-Ba is incomplete. It is the heart that contains the original instructions of Life, and when the heart is again in control of a person's life, Life responds with joy and power. When the Mer-Ka-Ba is directly connected to the Sacred Space of the Heart, that person's life becomes interconnected to all life everywhere and moves into higher consciousness naturally.

Using the latest in available technologies and partnerships we will be sharing information with you as quickly as we can.

From my heart to yours,
Drunvalo

A few books to read would be 'The Flower of life Vol 1 & Vol 2' as well as 'Living in the Heart' by Drunvalo Melcheizedek. They are very interesting.

[God-Like]

There is only one teaching that I know of that can truly give you access to this kind of information, and show you have to (permanently) activate your merkaba by going into the 'tiny space' in your heart - the center of true creation. This is the 'real deal'. I will be taking the workshop in April, in Leeds.



Thanks for adding Lunarvilly . I hope the workshop goes well for you :)

I wonder though if 'anyone' can teach the heart led Mer-ka-ba .

Wouldn't that be like teaching someone how to love ...


x daz x

[muffin]

Thanks for adding Lunarvilly . I hope the workshop goes well for you :)

I wonder though if 'anyone' can teach the heart led Mer-ka-ba .

Wouldn't that be like teaching someone how to love ...


x daz x
That of yourself.

[God-Like]

That of yourself.

What do you mean muffin ... My heads not yet screwed on tight ....:D


x daz x

[muffin]

Wouldn't that be like teaching someone how to love ...


x daz x
That of yourself, to open up ones own heart.

[God-Like]

That of yourself, to open up ones own heart.

lols ... head screwed on tight now .. I hear you :hug3:

I think in a way it's quite difficult to teach anyone anything that is energy related ... Perhaps one can lay down some foundations or make another aware of some mindful tools but I would say many or if not all find their own pace or their own rhythm depending on where they are at within themselves ..


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Hey :)


The intellectual doors that open will just present more intellectual understandings whereas the heart will open doors that present realizations that are beyond evaluation ..

x daz x

Hey Teddy :)

Makes perfect sense to me!... just wanted to be sure that's what you meant.

As I understand it, you can only get there in the fullest sense through the heart-led consciousness because the mental prayers meditations and exercises done by the holy men & gurus are all just to focus and direct the mind in service of heart. Once the "interdimensional singularity" is open, centred on the heart, then you can do all sorts of healing or "travel" via consciousness. You can "build the crown" for what I call the cosmic sight, but it is not fully functional unless it is in service to the heart.

The cosmic sight or cosmic consciousness or whatever we want to call it is something I have used very occasionally for a very high-level view -- to spot the 'seed of iniquity' (a term I love in healing context only as it is built into the fabric of our mortality...it is our weak spot physically from spirit, as we are not intended to live forever in this particular temple of our soul). But you can find that anyway with regular "higher level" healing scans and/or "talk therapy" in spirit.

Building the crown is not necessary for 99% of what we can do in the MKB, nor is it necessary for the vast majority of realising our spiritual potential IMO. I think any exercise designed to take or keep intellectual awareness or even pure consciousness away from service to the heart-led consciousness is neither good nor bad in and of itself. Critical thinking is important, for example, and this may be best learnt prior to bringing critical thought in service to heart. However, character, compassion, and self-awareness are arguably even more important. Ultimately intellectual pursuits alone are a side activity (perhaps a very interesting one) and even may misdirect us on our path, until and unless it's integrated in service to one's divinity within.

As we know, no amount of intellectual knowledge brings wisdom or clarity or balance or curiosity. Intellectual knowlegde is larger of the material realm and its workings, and lies outside the realm of spiritual knowledge. Consciousness itself is ineffable (for us) except as experienced through individuated existence, where it is given colour and texture through our singularity. It's opening the heart and bringing the energy flow of the higher chakras back into the heart or aligned with the heart (in service to the heart) that is the key -- as I understand it and have experienced it. I think this is more or less in line with what a few others here have also said.

And all that's something that just has to be experienced or realised by each person, I figure.

Peace & blessings Teds :hug3:
7L/Amanda

[silent whisper]

Thanks for adding Lunarvilly . I hope the workshop goes well for you :)

I wonder though if 'anyone' can teach the heart led Mer-ka-ba .

Wouldn't that be like teaching someone how to love ...


x daz x


All teaching can open awareness in any form, which in turn can open up the deeper seeds of love laying doormant within. The nature of love in its many forms requires many levels of awakening. Resonation, triggers, reactions, feelings, experiences, etc... leading to the heart space, that can naturally arise through the process.

[God-Like]

Once the "interdimensional singularity" is open, centred on the heart, then you can do all sorts of healing or "travel" via consciousness. You can "build the crown" for what I call the cosmic sight, but it is not fully functional unless it is in service to the heart.


Hey :)

I agree .

Building the crown is not necessary for 99% of what we can do in the MKB, nor is it necessary for the vast majority of realising our spiritual potential IMO. I think any exercise designed to take or keep intellectual awareness or even pure consciousness away from service to the heart-led consciousness is neither good nor bad in and of itself.




My understanding is that the heart-led-consciousness is activated when all chakras are fully functional, so when the heart-led-consciousness is activated one is already lit up like a christmas tree .. It's like a circuit so when all energies are up and running one is quite literally up and running, it's like if one's solar plexus centre is ego and fear driven then one's heart will not activate . You need a full house as they say ...

It's opening the heart and bringing the energy flow of the higher chakras back into the heart or aligned with the heart (in service to the heart) that is the key .



This is a bit more inline with what I said above it's just I am swayed in my understandings that the chakra system needs to be addressed, purified, cleansed or whatever the word is so that that the heart-led-consciousness can have it's day ...


An interesting spirit link I had last night I feel is connected to what has been ongoing with me lately he was into the knowledge of sacred geometry and was a grand master .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_P._H._Bromwell


x daz x

[God-Like]

All teaching can open awareness in any form, which in turn can open up the deeper seeds of love laying doormant within. The nature of love in its many forms requires many levels of awakening. Resonation, triggers, reactions, feelings, experiences, etc... leading to the heart space, that can naturally arise through the process.

Yes I agree that certain teachings can open up one's awareness in some shape or form .

I suppose it depends on what is being taught and whom is teaching and whom is being taught lols, that will reflect in how different anyone feels from such teachings ...

From one point of view if you can't sing it don't matter how many singing lessons you have ... :D


x daz x

[silent whisper]

Yes I agree that certain teachings can open up one's awareness in some shape or form .

I suppose it depends on what is being taught and whom is teaching and whom is being taught lols, that will reflect in how different anyone feels from such teachings ...

Not really because wherever you are lead its all leading you there no matter what you feel....:wink:

From one point of view if you can't sing it don't matter how many singing lessons you have ... :D

hey, really off key singers like me can be really ordinary and still take out the prize,for the worse singer..lol:D




x daz x


..............:bom:

[God-Like]

Not really because wherever you are lead its all leading you there no matter what you feel....



I understand that if I happened to come across a lecture of sorts on the radio about statistics for economic growth I would yawn profusely and then quickly switch channels, It wouldn't matter if the teacher spoke in dutch or english or came across in a way that most people could understand, it wouldn't do anything for me but rather confirm to me that I am not interested in what he has to say ... lols ..

So depending on what is being taught will reflect in what awareness is had from such teachings ...

If I was speaking to someone who was coming from a place that resonated with me then what I would be aware of something different from that of the lecturer that spoke of economic growth, this is my meaning ..

It depends on the teacher and what is being taught that will reflect in one's awareness of such ..

I would agree wherever we are at or led too so to speak is showing us something if we care to look at that something ..

I tend to be drawn away from that which doesn't resonate with me more so now than ever before, perhaps thats part of the program of knowing self .

hey, really off key singers like me can be really ordinary and still take out the prize,for the worse singer..lol



You and me both ... :hug3:


x daz x

[Papa Bear]

Hi Daz,
it's just I am swayed in my understandings that the chakra system needs to be addressed, purified, cleansed or whatever the word is so that that the heart-led-consciousness can have it's day ...
Harmonized in balanced symmetry comes to mind Daz. As the manifest condition must discover a symmetry in harmony with the ethereal elemental nature of what chakra balance involves.


An interesting spirit link I had last night I feel is connected to what has been ongoing with me lately he was into the knowledge of sacred geometry and was a grand master .
Maybe there is a sacred geometry to aligning the Mer-Ka-Ba, (“a person's Mer-Ka-Ba field can become alive. When this happens, an electro-magnetic change occurs”) and its symmetry with the chakra system.

Bala The Five Strengths (Sanskrit, Pali: pañca bala) in Buddhism are faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom. They are one of the seven sets of "qualities conducive to enlightenment." They are parallel facets of the five "spiritual faculties.
The pentacle with five points may be recognized to be `inclusive` of most symbolisms across paradigms.

Iman . Its most simple definition is the belief in the six articles of faith, known as arkān al-īmān.
The pentacle with six points may also be recognized to be` inclusive` of most symbolisms across paradigms.

Something is `pointing me along these lines` at present.
That may be more accurate than you first thought. lol

But as a mind may observe two natures in energy activity, the Mer-Ka-Ba (Bio)-electromagnetic in nature, and the ethereal nature of the chakra system. I am sure such minds have discovered what happens, when symmetry with heart `leads` mindfulness to a fuller understanding, of the requirements of harmonized symmetries between them both. As that would then be defined and reflected as a sacred geometry, in all paradigms.
Maybe reflecting why “the heart-led Mer-ka-ba opens doors where the more logical intellectual mind-led doesn't .” :D

[God-Like]

Hi Daz,

Harmonized in balanced symmetry comes to mind Daz. As the manifest condition must discover a symmetry in harmony with the ethereal elemental nature of what chakra balance involves.



Maybe there is a sacred geometry to aligning the Mer-Ka-Ba, (“a person's Mer-Ka-Ba field can become alive. When this happens, an electro-magnetic change occurs”) and its symmetry with the chakra system.


The pentacle with five points may be recognized to be `inclusive` of most symbolisms across paradigms.


The pentacle with six points may also be recognized to be` inclusive` of most symbolisms across paradigms.


That may be more accurate than you first thought. lol

But as a mind may observe two natures in energy activity, the Mer-Ka-Ba (Bio)-electromagnetic in nature, and the ethereal nature of the chakra system. I am sure such minds have discovered what happens, when symmetry with heart `leads` mindfulness to a fuller understanding, of the requirements of harmonized symmetries between them both. As that would then be defined and reflected as a sacred geometry, in all paradigms.
Maybe reflecting why “the heart-led Mer-ka-ba opens doors where the more logical intellectual mind-led doesn't .” :D


That was a lovely post Mr Bear, thanks for adding some wisdom and humour and taking the time out to read and add aspects of my posts made throughout the thread . :hug3:

What came to mind was Dr . Masaru Emoto who claims that human consciousness has an effect on the molecular structure of water . I was really interested in and agreed with what he said .

So when loving thoughts were projected upon the water a particular geometric shape / structure manifested as a result of such loving thoughts ..

So loving self or emanating love on many levels would produce a structure and a field of sameness reflected within our geometric design and likewise the more negative projections would also likewise result in sameness through geometric design .

So linking this line of thought with the Mer-Ka-Ba then what arises and manifests through our way of being will result in a particular awareness had that is energy related in such a way where the so called space that one entertains within mind (awareness) is pretty much contained within a geometric web that is of the self that is experiencing the mind body and beyond .

So it's no surprise really when an individual works on themselves and undergoes self reflection, self enquiry and heals and strengthens their weaknesses that self realizations happen not by accident but through design .

Here we go again about there not being any choice lols ...

Its just quite simply energy reacting to energy ..


x dazzle x

[7luminaries]

Hey :)

I agree .



My understanding is that the heart-led-consciousness is activated when all chakras are fully functional, so when the heart-led-consciousness is activated one is already lit up like a christmas tree .. It's like a circuit so when all energies are up and running one is quite literally up and running, it's like if one's solar plexus centre is ego and fear driven then one's heart will not activate . You need a full house as they say ...



This is a bit more inline with what I said above it's just I am swayed in my understandings that the chakra system needs to be addressed, purified, cleansed or whatever the word is so that that the heart-led-consciousness can have it's day ...

Hey :)
It's really nice to see you talking about the heart-led consciousness.
I really enjoy reading and hearing about this generally from others.
It's a good place for us to be.

An interesting spirit link I had last night I feel is connected to what has been ongoing with me lately he was into the knowledge of sacred geometry and was a grand master .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_P._H._Bromwell (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525252525252Fvb%2525252 525252Fredir.php%2525252525253Flink%2525252525253D http%252525252525253A%252525252525252F%25252525252 5252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%252525252525252Fvb%25 2525252525252Fredir.php%252525252525253Flink%25252 5252525253Dhttp%25252525252525253A%252525252525252 52F%25252525252525252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252525252 525252Fwiki%25252525252525252FHenry_P._H._Bromwell )


x daz x

That's very interesting. I feel the geometry does naturally arise in healing and meditation, both alone and with others, and it's quite lovely.

I really resonate with what you said here to PB:


What came to mind was Dr . Masaru Emoto who claims that human consciousness has an effect on the molecular structure of water . I was really interested in and agreed with what he said .

So when loving thoughts were projected upon the water a particular geometric shape / structure manifested as a result of such loving thoughts ..

So loving self or emanating love on many levels would produce a structure and a field of sameness reflected within our geometric design and likewise the more negative projections would also likewise result in sameness through geometric design .




I completely agree & am a huge fan of his work. I believe the intentions, thoughts and especially our actions (manifested here as spoken and written words), have great impact on our reality, as he demonstrates with the impacted water molecules.

I agree with Dr. Emoto that we need to understand the impact of our intentions, thoughts, words, and deeds. Particularly what we manifest in word and deed. If we want to bring forth love, balance, harmony, and grace (among others) in both ourselves and others around us...then we need to offer words and deeds of kindness, love, and truth.

IMO, if we expose dissonance in search of truth, it should be done with love and kindness, with the intention of bringing love and healing to the situation. Otherwise, IMO it is best to avoid intentionally bringing forth or reveal dissonance when the intention is not to bring love and healing, but instead to wound &/or control others.

That is, there may be exceptions (physical self-defense aside) where revealing truth is perceived as unkind, but if the intention is to heal and bring love, connection and healing, all may be in the right ultimately. Truth and love in communication and intention, and the application of lovingkindness, are all key here. Otherwise, it is difficult to justify the dissonance and damage, IMO.

Generally, harsh words, unkindness in speech and unkindness in action and deed, the absence of compassion, the perpetration of cruelty, violence, etc,...are to be avoided. Harsh words and actions designed and used to punish, to bring control, distance, power, and to control, dominate, and/or manipulate others intellectually, emotionally and/or physically (and other tools of autocracy and command) -- these are generally to be avoided if we seek to nurture the good in self and others.

Particularly in light of Emoto's understanding of the effects of manifestation of intention via word and deed.
I think his work is very timely indeed and our full attention to it is long overdue :)

Peace & blessings,
7L/Amanda

[God-Like]

I believe the intentions, thoughts and especially our actions (manifested here as spoken and written words), have great impact on our reality .



Hey :)

Absolutely and if one could notice the actual effects had upon themselves then it would stop many in their tracks mid way through expressing in a particular way .. it brings it back around to what one does to others is also doing to one's self .

I think many realise eventually that certain thoughts and actions / intentions bring to them a sense of something, be it satisfaction on some level or peace of mind or a feeling of guilt for example ...

We are our own measure in that respect but until one is ready to look at themselves in this way and take note of such reflections then one endures a merry-go-round of sorts and gets caught in a loop of self destruction .

Sometimes things need to be reduced in to rubble in order to rebuild something with a solid foundation ...


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Hey :)
Sounds like good stuff to me!

As with everything, it's in the doing that we truly see/express who we are.
And it all starts with intention and lovingkindness :smile:


Peace & blessings,
7L

[Papa Bear]

Hi G-L,
Its just quite simply energy reacting to energy ..
What then, if love was `not` an energy as we define energy? What if love was the primal cause of the existence and evolution of energy? And by being such, existed `only` within the `source` of all energy?

This would then mean, that only conscious awareness could reflect its presence/influence within any energy. While that reflection would identify loves presence `within` the witness/observer, `within` conscious awareness.

If by nature all energy reacts, then reflecting the presence of the source of any energy, within conscious awareness of that source love. Would enable an alchemy of design, to be `created` by that conscious awareness. For what element of any energy, any nature, would be beyond the nature of interconnectivity, produced by conscious awareness reflecting the presence of love from its source?

So when conscious awareness creates by design, a symmetry in shared harmony, which adjusts, abridges awareness `into` sameness with other energies, which may result in reflections of awareness of the presence of love. Then meaning is given to harmony, balance, symmetry and sameness, producing a geometry of design, in the perceptions of human understanding.

It is simply how energy reacts to the presence of loves reflection in conscious awareness. And what conscious awareness understands love to be. :cool:

[God-Like]

Hi G-L,

What then, if love was `not` an energy as we define energy? What if love was the primal cause of the existence and evolution of energy? And by being such, existed `only` within the `source` of all energy?

This would then mean, that only conscious awareness could reflect its presence/influence within any energy. While that reflection would identify loves presence `within` the witness/observer, `within` conscious awareness.

If by nature all energy reacts, then reflecting the presence of the source of any energy, within conscious awareness of that source love. Would enable an alchemy of design, to be `created` by that conscious awareness. For what element of any energy, any nature, would be beyond the nature of interconnectivity, produced by conscious awareness reflecting the presence of love from its source?

So when conscious awareness creates by design, a symmetry in shared harmony, which adjusts, abridges awareness `into` sameness with other energies, which may result in reflections of awareness of the presence of love. Then meaning is given to harmony, balance, symmetry and sameness, producing a geometry of design, in the perceptions of human understanding.

It is simply how energy reacts to the presence of loves reflection in conscious awareness. And what conscious awareness understands love to be. :cool:

Hi Pap's ..

Well the thing is with the old Love chestnut is that we only relate to it within mind ... I have an understanding that all is love when I relate the self to be all that is of the mind . The sameness being self / love / source .

The self or love isn't anything' until one relates to 'it' being something .

While there is awareness of 'it' being something, by design that something is subjected by the conditions of such a design .

From a 'love is all there is' perspective energy is also love . The awareness of love is the awareness of self .. Self awareness is reflected in our perception of everything that is ..

We have spoken of interconnectivty .. that's perhaps at the heart of loves reflection ... for one to recognise or perceive a reflection there is a connection as such made in order for one to perceive ...

One is not however disconnected at any one point but rather one perceives a self that is seemingly separated from what they are in reflection of lols ...


x dazzle x

[silent whisper]

Hi G-L,

What then, if love was `not` an energy as we define energy? What if love was the primal cause of the existence and evolution of energy? And by being such, existed `only` within the `source` of all energy?

This would then mean, that only conscious awareness could reflect its presence/influence within any energy. While that reflection would identify loves presence `within` the witness/observer, `within` conscious awareness.
Papa Bear in reflection and flow this is what comes to me..as I connect to your sharing..
As we deepen our own connection in conscious awareness of source within, the energy would become one with feeling and awareness, and with this more direct open connection we can transcend the energy body and move into the ethereal layer of pure love/source. In many ways that feels to me like the veil has lifted to the nature of light and pure love. In connecting to this space in this moment with vision of this light and love and feeling, it is almost like a fluffy white cloud..its soft, light, cannot be grasped, yet it breathes life and from into being through the process of creation, from and of itself.
For some reason in my visual connection in this moment, I see the dark sky of the universe around this cloud, both as one,creating form through many dense layers manifested to reach the human experience. I cannot see the density yet I know it is there. What comes to me in this moment is an intuitive connection of how humans are confused by the space of darkness which manifests this density and energy layer. This also feels like the unknown,made known in this moment of my view and feeling.

If by nature all energy reacts, then reflecting the presence of the source of any energy, within conscious awareness of that source love. Would enable an alchemy of design, to be `created` by that conscious awareness. For what element of any energy, any nature, would be beyond the nature of interconnectivity, produced by conscious awareness reflecting the presence of love from its source?

So when conscious awareness creates by design, a symmetry in shared harmony, which adjusts, abridges awareness `into` sameness with other energies, which may result in reflections of awareness of the presence of love. Then meaning is given to harmony, balance, symmetry and sameness, producing a geometry of design, in the perceptions of human understanding.

It is simply how energy reacts to the presence of loves reflection in conscious awareness. And what conscious awareness understands love to be. :cool:1


:hug3:

[Papa Bear]

Hi Daz,
Hi Pap's ..

Well the thing is with the old Love chestnut is that we only relate to it within mind ... I have an understanding that all is love when I relate the self to be all that is of the mind . The sameness being self / love / source .
A consideration to ponder, does mind create the perceptions of the heart in mind, or reflect and translate it`s awareness, in reflective kind? Is there a heart of mind? For love/source reflect `more` than `any` self, in a `shared` sameness in love and source. So how does a self-in-mind, share, that sameness?

The self or love isn't anything' until one relates to 'it' being something .
What reality `is` in nature, is often beyond the self-in-mind, because the self-in-mind, is not the heart-in-love. For heart-led-consciousness (7L), may consciously reflect `being` love, interconnected shared love, raising the self-in-body-mind to awareness before the thought of it.

While there is awareness of 'it' being something, by design that something is subjected by the conditions of such a design .
As a source reflection, any design must be natural, so the conditions of such design must reflect its nature. As its reflective awareness, must by nature reflect, sameness with the observers nature. So the nature of design within reflective awareness, becomes two natures reflecting sameness, by natural design.


From a 'love is all there is' perspective energy is also love . The awareness of love is the awareness of self .. Self awareness is reflected in our perception of everything that is ..
As mind is all there is, energy in mind may become loves reflection. So awareness of self, may reflect an energy reflected `from` love, in mind.
But the perceptions of the energies of mind, are not the perceptions of heart-led-consciousness, for they may reflect how the energies of mind are reflections of love called source.

We have spoken of interconnectivty .. that's perhaps at the heart of loves reflection ... for one to recognise or perceive a reflection there is a connection as such made in order for one to perceive ...
Love `is` interconnectivity, which means beyond being the primal cause, it magnetizes, gravitates, all difference back to sharing sameness. And as all energies give each other reason for being different. The heart of a human mind, gives perception in reflection of sameness because of its natural connection to love.
Your own words reflect such; “interconnectivity…the heart…loves reflection…recognize…reflection…connection� �for one to perceive.

One is not however disconnected at any one point but rather one perceives a self that is seemingly separated from what they are in reflection of lols ...
Human nature perceives in separation from everything it is interconnected with. Because it naturally reflects from an element of self-consideration. When that perception at inception opens to the sentience of loving harmony, the reflections of balance in symmetry may `become` any shared awareness of sameness.

As becoming aware has no natural limitation, what awareness may become is beyond the nature of self, but within its capacity to harmonize in balanced symmetry `as`, what it reflects, may become the geometry of the whole of self-in-consideration.

As the ethereal nature of self, is as close as your next breath, the Spirit beyond self, may be reflected in that breath in the perception and reflections of a heart in mind.

(Check out Silent`s Whispered reflection in the next post. It’s a good example of the point in question.)

The subtleties of our varied perspectives reflect the same love, it is in the experiential awareness of that source love, that we may `meet` in sameness, while different.

In nature we still share more in sameness than difference Daz. Lol
Thanks for freeing up my hearts expressed reflections in mindful words. :wink:

[Papa Bear]

Hi Silent,
Papa Bear in reflection and flow this is what comes to me..as I connect to your sharing..
As we deepen our own connection in conscious awareness of source within, the energy would become one with feeling and awareness, and with this more direct open connection we can transcend the energy body and move into the ethereal layer of pure love/source. In many ways that feels to me like the veil has lifted to the nature of light and pure love. In connecting to this space in this moment with vision of this light and love and feeling, it is almost like a fluffy white cloud..its soft, light, cannot be grasped, yet it breathes life and form into being through the process of creation, from and of itself.
For some reason in my visual connection in this moment, I see the dark sky of the universe around this cloud, both as one, creating form through many dense layers manifested to reach the human experience. I cannot see the density yet I know it is there. What comes to me in this moment is an intuitive connection of how humans are confused by the space of darkness which manifests this density and energy layer. This also feels like the unknown, made known in this moment of my view and feeling.
Mind reflects perception, perception in sensitivity causes mind to reflect `that` perception in sensitivity. What may become understood to be the perception of experience in mind, may also be understood to be a reflection `perceived- in -sensitivity`. What the heart may experience, the mind may reflect in translation. As `only` the heart may perceive the experiential nature of ethereal awareness. Mind may give an energy reflective substance to it.

Understanding that the ethereal nature of experiential awareness, is as close as our next breath. That it may integrate within our human experience in consciousness, requires an openness to that which you have just expressed, in reflection of conscious awareness of your ethereal nature.

I am drawn to offer a self-reflection for you. To demonstrate what has just been reflected. Read the highlighted section of your expression slowly, as if someone else wrote it, seeking your explanation/reflection of its meaning.

Give it the same consideration you would give another’s open expression.

Highlighted words;

“Reflection…flow…me…connect…sharing…deepen… own connection…source within…energy…become one…feeling…awareness…open… connection… transcend…energy body…into…ethereal…love/source…feels like…veil lifted… nature of light…love…connecting…vision…love…feeling…white… soft light… breathes…form into being…process…creation…itself... reason…visual connection… see…dark…universe…cloud…both…one form... dense… manifested …human experience…cannot see…density…know it is…me…this…moment… intuitive...connection…humans…confused… space…darkness…manifests…density…energy…feels… unknown…known in…my…feeling.”

Now what would you translate their reflective experience in awareness to be? Remembering the answer is for `you` in self-reflection. For it is your expression in reflection.

Silent we do share more in sameness, than difference.:hug3:

[silent whisper]

Hi Silent,

Mind reflects perception, perception in sensitivity causes mind to reflect `that` perception in sensitivity. What may become understood to be the perception of experience in mind, may also be understood to be a reflection `perceived- in -sensitivity`. What the heart may experience, the mind may reflect in translation. As `only` the heart may perceive the experiential nature of ethereal awareness. Mind may give an energy reflective substance to it.

Understanding that the ethereal nature of experiential awareness, is as close as our next breath. That it may integrate within our human experience in consciousness, requires an openness to that which you have just expressed, in reflection of conscious awareness of your ethereal nature.

I am drawn to offer a self-reflection for you. To demonstrate what has just been reflected. Read the highlighted section of your expression slowly, as if someone else wrote it, seeking your explanation/reflection of its meaning.

Give it the same consideration you would give another’s open expression.

Highlighted words;

“Reflection…flow…me…connect…sharing…de epen… own connection…source within…energy…become one…feeling…awareness…open… connection… transcend…energy body…into…ethereal…love/source…feels like…veil lifted… nature of light…love…connecting…vision…love…feelin g…white… soft light… breathes…form into being…process…creation…itself... reason…visual connection… see…dark…universe…cloud…both…one form... dense… manifested …human experience…cannot see…density…know it is…me…this…moment… intuitive...connection…humans…confused… space…darkness…manifests…density…energy… feels… unknown…known in…my…feeling.”

Now what would you translate their reflective experience in awareness to be? Remembering the answer is for `you` in self-reflection. For it is your expression in reflection.

Thankyou.:hug3:
Silent we do share more in sameness, than difference.:hug3:


>>>>O<<<<

:cool: :hug3:

[God-Like]

Hi Daz,

A consideration to ponder, does mind create the perceptions of the heart in mind, or reflect and translate it`s awareness, in reflective kind? Is there a heart of mind? For love/source reflect `more` than `any` self, in a `shared` sameness in love and source. So how does a self-in-mind, share, that sameness?




Hi Monkey, I mean Bear :D

I have spoken of the clay analogy before where clay is all there is . The plates and pots that manifest from such clay are the very same . The mind is the environment that allows the pots and plates to be . What allows such things to exist is the same as what exists, so when we speak of the pots in reflection of the plates, or the plates in reflection of the pots it is really all the same reflection . In one respect there are no pots or plates . lols .

The heart-led-consciousness reflects the self, just as the ego does, an awareness of sameness or supposed difference of that same self just reflects one's point of perception had .

When you say 'Is there a heart in mind', I would say 'yes' in such a way where the heart is reflecting an awareness of self that is love . In one respect there is no heart just as there are no pots and plates .. all there is, is awareness of self had from infinite points of perception .. (until one doesn't see any point) . lol .



As a source reflection, any design must be natural, so the conditions of such design must reflect its nature.




Yep so if we relate the nature of a tree or to the nature of a human being our design naturally reflects an experience of such a design .. but as touched upon before 'what we are has no nature as such' but rather one can reflect human traits and elemental traits because that's what we think ourselves to be through experiencing such designs . As many know 'what they are can transcend human nature' ..


The subtleties of our varied perspectives reflect the same love, it is in the experiential awareness of that source love, that we may `meet` in sameness, while different.



There appears or seems to be difference within sameness but when one breaks down sameness to the bare bones sameness remains, when one breaks down difference to the bare bones, there sameness is . I suppose an experience of difference is just as much part of the journey as human nature is or the ego self is .. It's quite an interesting thought regarding 'what makes one different' cos in some respect it won't hold much weight .

Perhaps difference is no more than ego ..

Lovely connection had with you as always Panda, I mean Papa .. :)


x daz x

[7luminaries]

LOL...PB is not I :tongue: and I am not he...why you say dat?

So anyway Dazzer why don't you speak more on the heart-led consciousness/MKB
and all that which is beyond intellect, from your own experience?

:smile:

Panda (not Papa)
:wink:

[silent whisper]

LOL...PB is not I :tongue: and I am not he...why you say dat?

So anyway Dazzer why don't you speak more on the heart-led consciousness/MKB
and all that which is beyond intellect, from your own experience?

:smile:

Panda (not Papa)
:wink:

Yes Miss panda why don't you..:tongue:

[God-Like]

LOL...PB is not I :tongue: and I am not he...why you say dat?

So anyway Dazzer why don't you speak more on the heart-led consciousness/MKB
and all that which is beyond intellect, from your own experience?

:smile:

Panda (not Papa)
:wink:

Hey Trev,

The heart-led-consciousness allows moments of union felt ... I could be looking at he sun or eyes closed within meditation or making tea .. The moments come and go in levels of intensity depending on each moment .

When the tide is high there is more opportunity for flooding to occur, when the self has become aware of it's self in a certain light there is a greater opportunity for the love of what they are to flood their awareness .

Everything is how it is, and everything is good in that moment ... The trouble is, every so often the tide goes out . lols .


x daz x

[Papa Bear]

Hi, Oh great Observer, (bows)
Hey Trev,

The heart-led-consciousness allows moments of union felt ... I could be looking at he sun or eyes closed within meditation or making tea .. The moments come and go in levels of intensity depending on each moment .

When the tide is high there is more opportunity for flooding to occur, when the self has become aware of it's self in a certain light there is a greater opportunity for the love of what they are to flood their awareness .

Everything is how it is, and everything is good in that moment ... The trouble is, every so often the tide goes out . lols .
Its not trev…or Panda.. its Monke y..I mean.. Papa..I think!!

Do you have a pebble I can snatch from your hand, are you a bald Buddhist, do you take on chela`s of an aging kind, can you teach me Kung Fu?

Where do you get those great metaphors and insights from? Is it a book I can get a loan of! Lol or is it only found in the great observatory in the sky?

“Everything is how it is” can I use that, Please!! Please!!lol (Bummer about that tide going out..) Just have an earl grey and meditate till it comes back. :D

[God-Like]

Hi, Oh great Observer, (bows)

Its not trev…or Panda.. its Monke y..I mean.. Papa..I think!!

Do you have a pebble I can snatch from your hand, are you a bald Buddhist, do you take on chela`s of an aging kind, can you teach me Kung Fu?

Where do you get those great metaphors and insights from? Is it a book I can get a loan of! Lol or is it only found in the great observatory in the sky?

“Everything is how it is” can I use that, Please!! Please!!lol (Bummer about that tide going out..) Just have an earl grey and meditate till it comes back. :D

Hi Grasshopper,

That's so darn funny .... (bows) If I tell ya where I get my understandings from I gonna have to kill ya (slowly) like in kung fu, a sort of kill bill (kill papa) paralysing death strike :D

could be kinda liberating :) for both of us teehee .. (just putting on my ninja costume) see you in 5 .


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Yes Miss panda why don't you..:tongue:

I'm bout to :D

[silent whisper]

I'm bout to :D

*Waits in anticipation for the heart to lead*

[7luminaries]

Hey Trev,

The heart-led-consciousness allows moments of union felt ... I could be looking at he sun or eyes closed within meditation or making tea .. The moments come and go in levels of intensity depending on each moment .

When the tide is high there is more opportunity for flooding to occur, when the self has become aware of it's self in a certain light there is a greater opportunity for the love of what they are to flood their awareness .

Everything is how it is, and everything is good in that moment ... The trouble is, every so often the tide goes out . lols .


x daz x
Hey Daz :)
(It's Panda to you)

my thoughts...
You are right that the MKB is of the heart, and in turn the heart is of water, flow, and tides.

There is a natural balance to water and a natural rhythm and balance to the tides, cultivated by the effect of the moon on the earth. (The sun also plays into the water cycle, seen with the heart in the presence of the 3rd chakra, and the will -- but is more a preceding or underlying support).

There is also a natural ebb and flow, a giving and receiving in the way of the heart. The flow of the tide comes into the heart, and then it goes out. This is a natural cycle, and the imbalance or lack is only ever felt when the reciprocity or balance of these two forces, ebb and flow, in and out, are disrupted or impeded or unattended in any way.

One must openly receive the tides of the heart, or the influx may feel like an overflowing or an unwelcome flooding. At this time, one is on the shore of the heart, receiving the flow openly.

Likewise one must openly give with the outflow of the tides. At this time, one is in the ocean. At every moment, one is centred within the bounty of the flow. One with the flow. As long as the receiving yields to giving, and then giving yields to receiving. This is the way. We can most fundamentally understand it as the way of the heart. Or the way of God.

If one only gives, one feels a lack when one's giving must yield to receiving the tides from the ocean. One will feel this whether they prefer giving or whether they resist or fear receiving. And the receiver too feels it, for the empty space created by the imbalance then has a reality of its own.

If one only receives, one feels a lack when one's receiving must yield to giving the flow back to the shore. One will feel this whether they prefer receiving or whether they resist or fear giving. And likewise the giver also feels it.

If we observe the emptiness on the shore when the tide has gone out, in the material world, we must go naturally with the flow on our rafts and boats to where the ocean waters lie. Likewise, when the shore of the heart is dry, we must flow with the tides to the ocean of the heart until the tides come in once more to water the shores.

In the natural, primordial and seamless way of all things where receiving yields to giving, and giving to receiving, we are one with the love within us, between us, and amongst us. And in this way, we will never be apart from it.

Peace & blessings,
Panda

[God-Like]

As long as the receiving yields to giving, and then giving yields to receiving


Hey Dave,

In some respect giving is receiving . Many feel when in service to mankind that they want for nothing, for what can measure up to self satisfaction attained through such a service .. I suppose that when an individual is selfless in such a way everything becomes them in some shape or form, or they get what they need somehow ...

Is what is received 'for them' or is it for those that they are in service too ..

nice post by the way .

x daz x

[7luminaries]

Hey Daz :)

Before I respond, who is Dave? Just FYI, I am Amanda :wink:
I thought it was for another (?) but then it seemed as if you were responding to my post, since you quoted me (?).

Did you intend to respond to someone else? To Dave? Don't know all the names here, sorry...not certain if that is PB.
Or did you intend to respond to me?

Just checking coz I know there was that time before you were on some pain meds for your wisdom teeth removal and you were a bit loopy, but you had an excuse :D

But if that response is for me, you'd best use 7L or Amanda or something per usual. (Else I would normally skip over and not respond unless "jumping in")

Peace & blessings Dazzer! :hug3:
7L/Amanda

[God-Like]

Hey Daz :)

Before I respond, who is Dave? Just FYI, I am Amanda :wink:
I thought it was for another (?) but then it seemed as if you were responding to my post, since you quoted me (?).

Did you intend to respond to someone else? To Dave? Don't know all the names here, sorry...not certain if that is PB.
Or did you intend to respond to me?

Just checking coz I know there was that time before you were on some pain meds for your wisdom teeth removal and you were a bit loopy, but you had an excuse :D

But if that response is for me, you'd best use 7L or Amanda or something per usual. (Else I would normally skip over and not respond unless "jumping in")

Peace & blessings Dazzer! :hug3:
7L/Amanda

Yer post was for you Panda ... :smile:

x dave x

[7luminaries]

In some respect giving is receiving . Many feel when in service to mankind that they want for nothing, for what can measure up to self satisfaction attained through such a service .. I suppose that when an individual is selfless in such a way everything becomes them in some shape or form, or they get what they need somehow ...

Is what is received 'for them' or is it for those that they are in service too ..

nice post by the way .

x daz x

This is a somewhat esoteric question eh? :tongue:

But even holy men and women experience doubt, lack, abandonment, darkness, and despair. All of them.
They choose not to live there, and that is why they are awakened...
but nonetheless these experiences throughout the human experience of any one life...these moments arise and recur.
Jesus himself was tempted and he also experienced despair and darkness of the soul.
In his final mortal moments, he experienced great despair, isolation, lack, and abandonment.

So...in response to your post, clearly no one person is ever sufficient unto themselves for all times and places,
no matter their level of awakening or their degree of selflessness and service. And that is surely by design.

It is bound up in the human condition that we by definition cannot meet all our own needs.
Nor can the most loving and caring of others fully meet these needs for us at all times.
Nor even can God or Spirit meet all those needs for us at all times.
This is because we are fashioned as we are...to always seek for wholeness and connection.

The very fact that we can never be fully satisfied in all moments -- no matter the depth of our peace, balance, and awareness --
is our impetus to grow and expand and reach out/in from our centre to the rest of existence.

So ultimately the ends we seek can never be about the needs themselves...
even though with love and connection, we will meet our most fundamental needs in all the ways that truly matter.
But ultimately the ends we seek must be the love and the connection themselves. With ourselves, with Spirit, and with others.

As many have said, it truly is all about the love we have and the love we share.
Likewise it is all about the journey we take and the journey we share.

Peace & blessings Teddy :hug3:
Panda

[Nada]

I have nothing to add...
Except to express that I like the name Mer-Ka-Ba.

Mer-Ka-Ba.
I like it! :D

[muffin]

Hey Dave,

In some respect giving is receiving . Many feel when in service to mankind that they want for nothing, for what can measure up to self satisfaction attained through such a service .. I suppose that when an individual is selfless in such a way everything becomes them in some shape or form, or they get what they need somehow ...

Is what is received 'for them' or is it for those that they are in service too ..

nice post by the way .

x daz x

The art of giving, if you look for something in return it's not giving.

[God-Like]

I have nothing to add...
Except to express that I like the name Mer-Ka-Ba.

Mer-Ka-Ba.
I like it! :D

I kinda like Daz-Zl-Er :D

What do you think N-Ad-A :hug3:

x daz x

[God-Like]

The art of giving, if you look for something in return it's not giving.

I agree muffin, I think even one that acknowledges that one is giving can tarnish such givings .

One cannot remove themselves from the effects of 'what goes around comes around' so in some respect this can be applied to giving and receiving .

Whatever anyone gives out will become you in some shape or form .


x daz x

[God-Like]

This is a somewhat esoteric question eh? :tongue:

But even holy men and women experience doubt, lack, abandonment, darkness, and despair. All of them.
They choose not to live there, and that is why they are awakened...
but nonetheless these experiences throughout the human experience of any one life...these moments arise and recur.
Jesus himself was tempted and he also experienced despair and darkness of the soul.
In his final mortal moments, he experienced great despair, isolation, lack, and abandonment.

So...in response to your post, clearly no one person is ever sufficient unto themselves for all times and places,
no matter their level of awakening or their degree of selflessness and service. And that is surely by design.

It is bound up in the human condition that we by definition cannot meet all our own needs.
Nor can the most loving and caring of others fully meet these needs for us at all times.
Nor even can God or Spirit meet all those needs for us at all times.
This is because we are fashioned as we are...to always seek for wholeness and connection.

The very fact that we can never be fully satisfied in all moments -- no matter the depth of our peace, balance, and awareness --
is our impetus to grow and expand and reach out/in from our centre to the rest of existence.

So ultimately the ends we seek can never be about the needs themselves...
even though with love and connection, we will meet our most fundamental needs in all the ways that truly matter.
But ultimately the ends we seek must be the love and the connection themselves. With ourselves, with Spirit, and with others.

As many have said, it truly is all about the love we have and the love we share.
Likewise it is all about the journey we take and the journey we share.

Peace & blessings Teddy :hug3:
Panda

Hey :)

I am trying to make a connection of my post on giving is receiving and your post of jesus's doubts on the cross :D :tongue:

I'll have to read it again me thinks and get back to you :smile:


x daz x

[God-Like]

So...in response to your post, clearly no one person is ever sufficient unto themselves for all times and places, no matter their level of awakening or their degree of selflessness and service. And that is surely by design.

It is bound up in the human condition that we by definition cannot meet all our own needs.


Hey :)

I suppose it can also boil down to what are one's needs and how self sufficient they are . I think the world entertains both give and take but the giver rarely takes and the taker rarely gives ...

The giver however receives without taking for it's never about them .

For some one needs to remain strong in order to be of service for they do not ask for anything for themselves .


x elvis x

[silent whisper]

I agree muffin, I think even one that acknowledges that one is giving can tarnish such givings .

One cannot remove themselves from the effects of 'what goes around comes around' so in some respect this can be applied to giving and receiving .

Whatever anyone gives out will become you in some shape or form .


x daz x


Imagine you as the infinity symbol as a whole all as you..in the flow of being you....then you see in being you how this works.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae22/green-witch/Symbols%20and%20Tools/infinity.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/green-witch/media/Symbols%20and%20Tools/infinity.jpg.html)

[God-Like]

Imagine you as the infinity symbol as a whole all as you..in the flow of being you....then you see in being you how this works.

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/ae22/green-witch/Symbols%20and%20Tools/infinity.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/green-witch/media/Symbols%20and%20Tools/infinity.jpg.html)

I think the infinity symbol is as good as any when referring to a self that is experiencing a cycle of sorts, a cycle that contains only 'self' . There's no getting away from what they are in each moment and there's no getting away from what their expression contains ...

You can run but there's nowhere to hide as the saying goes .. lols ..

Are we not running from ourselves .. doh!! :)


x daz x

[muffin]

Hey :)

I suppose it can also boil down to what are one's needs and how self sufficient they are . I think the world entertains both give and take but the giver rarely takes and the taker rarely gives ...

The giver however receives without taking for it's never about them .

For some one needs to remain strong in order to be of service for they do not ask for anything for themselves .


x elvis x
For that which has already been given.

[7luminaries]

Hey :)

I suppose it can also boil down to what are one's needs and how self sufficient they are . I think the world entertains both give and take but the giver rarely takes and the taker rarely gives ...

The giver however receives without taking for it's never about them .

For some one needs to remain strong in order to be of service for they do not ask for anything for themselves .


x elvis x


even holy men and women experience doubt, lack, abandonment, darkness, and despair. All of them.
They choose not to live there, and that is why they are awakened...
but nonetheless these experiences throughout the human experience of any one life...these moments arise and recur.
Jesus himself was tempted and he also experienced despair and darkness of the soul.
In his final mortal moments, he experienced great despair, isolation, lack, and abandonment.

So...in response to your post, clearly no one person is ever sufficient unto themselves for all times and places,
no matter their level of awakening or their degree of selflessness and service. And that is surely by design.

It is bound up in the human condition that we by definition cannot meet all our own needs.
Nor can the most loving and caring of others fully meet these needs for us at all times.
Nor even can God or Spirit meet all those needs for us at all times.
This is because we are fashioned as we are...to always seek for wholeness and connection.

The very fact that we can never be fully satisfied in all moments -- no matter the depth of our peace, balance, and awareness --
is our impetus to grow and expand and reach out/in from our centre to the rest of existence.

So ultimately the ends we seek can never be about the needs themselves...
even though with love and connection, we will meet our most fundamental needs in all the ways that truly matter.
But ultimately the ends we seek must be the love and the connection themselves. With ourselves, with Spirit, and with others.

As many have said, it truly is all about the love we have and the love we share.
Likewise it is all about the journey we take and the journey we share.


Hey Dazzer :)
To show the reality that no one ever fully be satisfied or have their needs met, I chose the most extreme cases of selflessness, i.e. holy men and women, including Jesus...who lived lives dedicated to loving service.
Even they, as fully awakened human beings, experienced times of great doubt, darkness, lack, abandonment, and despair. This is the human condition, and it is ultimately what keeps us ever striving toward Love and Spirit.

IMO ultimately it's not and can never be about meeting one's needs or about the degree of self-sufficiency attained. For two primary reasons:

1) It is by design that we are not perfect, not satisfied, and ever yearning for and desirous of love and spirit. Consciousness, growth, learning, and love are never-ending.
2) Seeking needs met or self-sufficiency puts the satisfaction of the needs or the degree of self-sufficiency, or both, as the end goal(s). This is what I call a utilitarian perspective, even though it's within a spiritual perspective. Where the ends are other than the person, the soul, and seeking love and the good of all, not just seeking for one's own needs and one's own perceived good.
For this reason, reciprocity is always the way of all things in truth and love, for just as we seek love and good for self AND others, so will and should they do for us. Otherwise the truth of the way is imbalanced. Existence seeks balance and harmony, not one-sided giving or receiving.

Whilst it is the example of giving that can motivate and inspire us to give to one another, nonetheless it is for naught as water on the rocks without a loving receiving of the gift. Receiving in turn naturally returns the giving as a natural outflow of a fullness of heart. Here too the giver must then become the receiver in due course, or again the natural flow is interrupted. As the giving and the receiving yield to one another in natural harmony, we find the way of all things in love in truth.

That is why ultimately it is and only ever can be about our humanity, our souls, our consciousness, our experiences, and discovery of the way of love and truth, in which there is a natural reciprocity and harmony. This incarnation, and all incarnations, are the moments we have to experience ourselves in God (within existence), or multiplicity in oneness. Likewise the One can experience Oneness in multiplicity through us. Only the perspective changes...although our experience remains the same.

I think that it is very helpful to read this short conversation between Rabindranath Tagore and Einstein on the Nature of Reality. Just a few pages. WELL worth the time if you have not read previously. And always a good re-read if you have.
Here one can clearly see that for all Einstein's wisdom and mysticism, he was IMO a few steps behind Tagore in conceptualising the relevance of the heart of consciousness as the origin of reality. Including the heart of human consciousness, as it continues to expand. Not that they weren't both brilliant :D

http://intinno.iitkgp.ernet.in/courses/888/wfiles/183704 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525252525252Fvb%2525252 525252Fredir.php%2525252525253Flink%2525252525253D http%252525252525253A%252525252525252F%25252525252 5252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%252525252525252Fvb%25 2525252525252Fredir.php%252525252525253Flink%25252 5252525253Dhttp%25252525252525253A%252525252525252 52F%25252525252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525 2525252525252Fvb%25252525252525252Fredir.php%25252 525252525253Flink%25252525252525253Dhttp%252525252 5252525253A%2525252525252525252F%25252525252525252 52Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525252525252525252Fvb% 2525252525252525252Fredir.php%2525252525252525253F link%2525252525252525253Dhttp%25252525252525252525 3A%252525252525252525252F%252525252525252525252Fww w.spiritualforums.com%252525252525252525252Fvb%252 525252525252525252Fredir.php%252525252525252525253 Flink%252525252525252525253Dhttp%25252525252525252 525253A%25252525252525252525252F%25252525252525252 525252Fintinno.iitkgp.ernet.in%2525252525252525252 5252Fcourses%25252525252525252525252F888%252525252 52525252525252Fwfiles%25252525252525252525252F1837 04)

Peace & blessings Teddy,
Panda

[silent whisper]

I think the infinity symbol is as good as any when referring to a self that is experiencing a cycle of sorts, a cycle that contains only 'self' . There's no getting away from what they are in each moment and there's no getting away from what their expression contains ...

True daz, the natural flow of cycles definitely..

I was referring more to the nature of flow in continual being, at the core level of spirit. As you fully embrace the Mer Ka Ba/Merkabah, your own embodiment in the infinite flow, just is in the space of being/giving...naturally.

You can run but there's nowhere to hide as the saying goes .. lols ..

This is true. Every reflection of you is there to reveal you, once you are fully feeling, connected..:) Its a bit like people who pass over and you hear how their *feelings* awaken to *feel the love* *letting go of all else* *everything else in that moment of love and light merges into your whole being*...you in feeling fully the love available to you through that passage, *remember*..of course the tunnel and light is ourselves..So here I am, here you are..:wink:

That funny saying that I have heard people say...*I was dying to see you*...seems to fit here. :)





Are we not running from ourselves .. doh!! :)

We can I suppose, run from anything through our own perceived ideas about the nature of what running away means....but in fact it doesn't matter where we are, once we merge into the space of feeling fully, we are everywhere, so you can run but you cant hide, because your everywhere you are and no matter when you have your chance to merge to the experience of death/life/love/light, its going to happen......:wink:


x daz x


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbhUnV7QBG4

Gold Gold Gold
MER KE BA

GOLD
MERKEBAH

[Nada]

I kinda like Daz-Zl-Er :D

What do you think N-Ad-A :hug3:

x daz x

I like them both! :D

[God-Like]

For that which has already been given.

Amen to that sister :smile:


x da-zz-le x

[God-Like]

It is by design that we are not perfect, not satisfied, and ever yearning for and desirous of love and spirit. Consciousness, growth, learning, and love are never-ending.



Hey :)

As said to papa, What we are has no nature, nor design but one entertains as such . It is possible to experience beyond our associated design .. It's kinda like fighting your way out of a paper bag or trying to intellectually transcend the intellect, there will always be needs in some shape or form while we entertain the one that needs likened to a drug dealer and an addict .

I wouldn't say all are still caught up in a fight within themselves nor do they all want for love other than the love of themselves, I suppose the wanting and the taking from others is showing them on some level what they are supposedly missing or lacking from within ..

There's nothing wrong with any of it due to circumstance but what does it say about an individual that continually takes and continually wants, compared to another whom entertains their opposites .

For this reason, reciprocity is always the way of all things in truth and love, for just as we seek love and good for self AND others, so will and should they do for us. Otherwise the truth of the way is imbalanced. Existence seeks balance and harmony, not one-sided giving or receiving.



We always get what we need in some shape or form, and the thing is our needs differ greatly, one might relate to having nothing as such but would feel content within themselves regardless . One might feel as if they have everything one could dream for and be empty inside so what does the one that is content need from the man who seeming has everything .

If anything the man with nothing other than contentment would offer something of themselves to the man that has it all lols .

If he could the man with everything will still take the contentment from the man with nothing .. And thats how the story goes ..


x daz-zler x

[God-Like]

I was referring more to the nature of flow in continual being, at the core level of spirit. As you fully embrace the Mer Ka Ba/Merkabah, your own embodiment in the infinite flow, just is in the space of being/giving...naturally .



Hey :)

I suppose everything is just happening or not happening where the individual is not seemingly orchestrating any of it .. There is always only one way of being in each moment and that will facilitate the needs of others in some way .

If one entertains that space within mind and still interacts in the physical realm the effect had upon others will supersede their own individual will and understandings . The one that reaches such a state is of service and it's all about what they can do for you rather than what they can for him/her ..

x daz x

[God-Like]

I like them both! :D

x daz-a-nada x


lols :D

[silent whisper]

Hey :)

I suppose everything is just happening or not happening where the individual is not seemingly orchestrating any of it .. There is always only one way of being in each moment and that will facilitate the needs of others in some way .

If one entertains that space within mind and still interacts in the physical realm the effect had upon others will supersede their own individual will and understandings . The one that reaches such a state is of service and it's all about what they can do for you rather than what they can for him/her ..

x daz x

Uhuh..:smile:

[God-Like]

Uhuh..:smile:

Was that your Elvis impression, Uhuh, Uhuh .. :D


x daz x

[silent whisper]

Was that your Elvis impression, Uhuh, Uhuh .. :D


x daz x


funny man..lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZUZ_twxVwY

[God-Like]

funny man..lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZUZ_twxVwY


You'll like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtV0je-liEg

x daz x

[muffin]

“You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give.”
― Kahlil Gibran

[7luminaries]

Hey :)

As said to papa, What we are has no nature, nor design but one entertains as such . It is possible to experience beyond our associated design .. It's kinda like fighting your way out of a paper bag or trying to intellectually transcend the intellect, there will always be needs in some shape or form while we entertain the one that needs likened to a drug dealer and an addict .

Hey there Daz :)

All is possible, and all possibilities derive from our grounded, centered human experience. The more grounded and centred we are, the more immaterial and expansive we become. (All transcendence = all groundedness)happens right here, right now, just as we are. It's all about integrity, body and soul.


I wouldn't say all are still caught up in a fight within themselves nor do they all want for love other than the love of themselves, I suppose the wanting and the taking from others is showing them on some level what they are supposedly missing or lacking from within ..

There's nothing wrong with any of it due to circumstance but what does it say about an individual that continually takes and continually wants, compared to another whom entertains their opposites

There are spiritual needs or lack and abundances, riches or surplus, and there intellectual, emotional and material needs and abundances. Jesus, Buddha, and all other holy men and women certainly experienced great needs on all levels, just as they experienced great abundances. This is part and parcel of the human experience. We are at the very least no different than they in our core humanity :wink: When we experience whatever we may label as lack, we flow to the shore to receive the abundance of self, God, and others. When we experience abundance, we flow to the ocean to give of that abundance.

I hear what you're saying regarding unbalanced giving and unbalanced taking (as this is not true receiving). This imbalance is perhaps one of the most pre-eminent metaphysical and spiritual problems of our age. However, for me, certainly we are once awakened, there is no real point in labeling or ranking either end of the spectrum. All of our experience, if connected to and in service to heart, serves a purpose. For us, for Spirit, and for others (and by extension, all else).

Once awakened, we can see that we now call "need" and "abundance" are both from God, and both are "all good". Both lead us toward God, and we can and do flow to the shores and the ocean with love and with regard for the highest good of self and others, and all in Spirit.

Trying to escape one ("needs"="bad") whilst trying to attain the other ("abundance"="good") -- or as much as we can do -- is ultimately a fruitless endeavour because it is not the way of all things. It is only by embracing both that we can attain either. As we gain awareness and clarity, we can see that which we run from is that which we "need" most deeply in order to attain "abundance" regarding whatever it is that we truly seek, whether transcendence, balance, God, or what have you :hug3:


We always get what we need in some shape or form, and the thing is our needs differ greatly, one might relate to having nothing as such but would feel content within themselves regardless . One might feel as if they have everything one could dream for and be empty inside so what does the one that is content need from the man who seeming has everything .

If anything the man with nothing other than contentment would offer something of themselves to the man that has it all lols .

If he could the man with everything will still take the contentment from the man with nothing .. And thats how the story goes ..

x daz-zler x

I hear you describing blind giving and blind taking, lacking connection and personalistic orientation beyond the self. What you say is all too accurate in the land of the blind.

In this land of the blind, the givers pour water on the rocks without consideration until their wells run dry from lack of self-care (whether spiritual, intellectual, emotional, or simply physical). Having spent their abundance, they must return to the ocean by force to replenish the spent frailty of their beings. Having denied the natural instinct of all life toward flow and reciprocity in all things, they have fundamentally failed to grasp the nature of reality in harmony and balance, in the ebb and flow. Lastly, their blind, indiscriminate and impersonal giving has done neither the givers nor the takers any true or lasting good, for only in personalistic apprehension and connection could any true metamorphosis occur as a result of the gift. True giving can only be appreciated by true receiving, person to person, and soul to soul. And the same is true in reverse.

Likewise, because the takers will not receive in love and gratitude, they must then look to steal instead the water that was already freely offered previously. There is no love or gratitude offered for what was stolen, and nor is there remorse or shame for the desecration of the gift and the giver. Moreover, the ongoing denial or repression of persistent human needs will, for the taker, only result in continued, desperate acts of thievery and desecration. They become insatiable monsters, never satisfied, the "hungry ghosts" of the Buddhist hell realms.

All of which creates an even more penetrating and traumatic tear in the tapestry of all things. From both sides.
Moreover, the system is fundamentally broken to ever greater degrees because in the land of the blind, we are fear-driven and isolated within our self-imposed chains, and no one moves far from their fixed location -- there is no flow with the nature of life, of love, and of spirit.

The key thing is that is not the story for all times and all places. Nor does it have to continue to be our story. Once we awaken, we no longer live in the land of the blind, and we do not assign labels or judgments of good or bad to needs or abundance. All become us in our humanity, and it is a measure of trancendence and love that we can seek both to give and to receive from one another so as to fulfill or deliver needs and abundance regardless of any judgment but whether it serves the good equally of self and others. In that capacity, we can all both give and receive, in various unique, individual and ever-expanding ways.

In other times and in other places, we don't focus on who is giving or taking, or who needs or doesn't need (says he or says she) -- because all will both give and receive with one another, person to person, and soul to soul, in the relationships, connections, times and places that are appropriate. I.e., sometimes from the shore, and sometimes from the ocean, but always soul to soul in Spirit. And that can be us, all of us, right here, right now. The land of the blind is often described as a hell on earth. But as Kabbalah instructs, hell is really heaven in disguise, for we have the power to transform it through love and connection.

Peace & blessings,
7L/Amanda

[God-Like]

This imbalance is perhaps one of the most pre-eminent metaphysical and spiritual problems of our age. However, for me, certainly we are once awakened, there is no real point in labeling or ranking either end of the spectrum. All of our experience, if connected to and in service to heart, serves a purpose. For us, for Spirit, and for others (and by extension, all else).



Hey :)

Without the givers they would be no takers, without those to serve, there would be no-one in service, in that respect I agree all of our experience serves a purpose . I agree with aspects of your thought regarding those that blindly give and take .

Once awakened, we can see that we now call "need" and "abundance" are both from God, and both are "all good". Both lead us toward God, and we can and do flow to the shores and the ocean with love and with regard for the highest good of self and others, and all in Spirit.


Agreed, 'it's all good' .


Trying to escape one ("needs"="bad") whilst trying to attain the other ("abundance"="good") -- or as much as we can do -- is ultimately a fruitless endeavour because it is not the way of all things. It is only by embracing both that we can attain either.


My mum spend 8 years living in a self made wooden cabin with no mod cons, no toilets, no electricity, she had rats nibbling at the bottom of her duvet, she used to **** in the woods, she had the basic essentials of shelter and food and clothing .. she would spend what little money she had more on her dogs than her self ... I suppose being 'enlightened' said loosely, reflected her basic needs, for there was nothing that could come close to fulfilling her needs than that of her own light . I watched a house/property programme a while back and some woman couldn't possibly move into a 5 bedroom house with only 2 bathrooms . Apparently she needed at least 3 bathrooms . My mum didn't have a bathroom, she didn't need one .

Which woman could be trying to escape or deny their needs ... I think needs are reflected within their awareness of self .

The key thing is that is not the story for all times and all places. Nor does it have to continue to be our story. Once we awaken, we no longer live in the land of the blind, and we do not assign labels or judgments of good or bad to needs or abundance.



Agreed, In some respect it is a never-ending story it could be said that as one awakens so to speak a new chapter begins or one's awareness just perceives another reflection different in someway than before, I would say our needs are forever changing also, our needs fit the moment in relation to our self awareness as mentioned ..


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Hey :)

Without the givers they would be no takers, without those to serve, there would be no-one in service, in that respect I agree all of our experience serves a purpose . I agree with aspects of your thought regarding those that blindly give and take .

Hey there :)

Right. The important thing is the potential for transformation of one-sided blind giving and blind taking.
Into reciprocal giving and receiving. Meaning, the givers and receivers are ALSO the receivers and the givers.
Where we will not give, we hoard. Where we will not receive, we take.

All givers must receive, and all receivers must give.
This is the natural way of things, which (granted) many are yet to accept in their day-to-day existence.
To deny this truth is simply to live in a place of denial apart from the reality of existence and the truth of all things.

Once we are beyond that denial, there is no martyrdom, and there is no thievery. No martyrs and no thieves.
And then we can stop castigating one side versus the other, giving "versus" receiving...as if only one was desirable.
Both are absolutely fundamental not just to the whole of existence, but to our individual existence and development.

Agreed, 'it's all good' .

My mum spend 8 years living in a self made wooden cabin with no mod cons, no toilets, no electricity, she had rats nibbling at the bottom of her duvet, she used to **** in the woods, she had the basic essentials of shelter and food and clothing .. she would spend what little money she had more on her dogs than her self ... I suppose being 'enlightened' said loosely, reflected her basic needs, for there was nothing that could come close to fulfilling her needs than that of her own light . I watched a house/property programme a while back and some woman couldn't possibly move into a 5 bedroom house with only 2 bathrooms . Apparently she needed at least 3 bathrooms . My mum didn't have a bathroom, she didn't need one .

Which woman could be trying to escape or deny their needs ... I think needs are reflected within their awareness of self .

First, I'll say that most at a certain place on their path do not overly stress unnecessary or spurious material needs. I agree it is not where their focus is.

In your example, one woman (mum) focused on her non-material needs, to the near-total exclusion of her material needs. She of course would have been forced at some point to bring some balance to her situation in order to care for the body and other basic material needs. Her position, whilst lovely in her personal spiritual experience of it, could nonetheless be viewed as excessive with regard to a balance of giving/receiving regarding the material self. It may have seemed necessary or right to her for her needs as she understood them at that time, and that is fair enough, but it is not required for awakening nor even recommended by our greatest spiritual masters. They have all stressed a balance of love and discipline, and compassion toward all and in all, including regarding all aspects of our material existence.

Buddha mortified the flesh for years & nearly starved himself searching for enlightenment, which always eluded him and for a core reason -- he was not balanced and thus not loving and compassionate toward the self. He refused to receive love in the form of the basic care and sustenance required for existence, (and interestingly therefore, he can also be seen as refusing to give to the body in a loving way).

Finally on point of death, he was forced to receive sustenance and admit the prerequisite for fully grounding in his existence here and now in the flesh, prior to awakening.

As soon as his attitude toward receiving and the material changed -- that is, as soon as he became more accepting of the need to receive as well as to give -- he became more balanced and loving in his care of his material needs. His awakening under the bodhi tree followed almost immediately. It was the lesson he'd been blocking for several years prior to enlightenment, and he finally received the wisdom of it.

On the other hand, clearly, the other woman in your example is focusing on unnecessary material needs, which she may somehow still feel are necessary, given her level of emotional and spiritual development. Many tend to think material fortifications are important to survival, until they realise that they really are not so important to the spiritual survival. And of course, even given the natural instinct in most to self-preservation, her position is excessive. I think her position of taking on the material level rather than giving and receiving on all levels tends to fall away with further development on one's path. If she goes there.

But the tendency to be imbalanced in one way or the other remains even after external material needs fall away or diminish. And this is because we all have needs and abundances. On all levels. Physical/material, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual. Where we seek abundance, we acknowledge some lack (i.e., spiritual awareness, for example)...and clearly this is by design and is not in any way bad in and of itself. Where we have abundance, we may and can freely give of that, and IMO we often will tend to do so as we progress on our paths.

Where we do not give or receive, it is there that fear has interfered with our natural tendency to seek abundance for needs and to give of abundance where needed.



Agreed, In some respect it is a never-ending story it could be said that as one awakens so to speak a new chapter begins or one's awareness just perceives another reflection different in someway than before, I would say our needs are forever changing also, our needs fit the moment in relation to our self awareness as mentioned ..

x daz x

I agree :)

Peace and blessings,
7L/Amanda

[God-Like]

It may have seemed necessary or right to her for her needs as she understood them at that time, and that is fair enough, but it is not required for awakening nor even recommended by our greatest spiritual masters. They have all stressed a balance of love and discipline, and compassion toward all and in all, including regarding all aspects of our material existence.



Hey :)

The lesser the ego the lesser the needs for whom would be needy .. The lesser the person the lesser the need for an abundance of food and wealth and material gains, it really is just a reflection of self awareness .. It doesn't mean you can't live in a nice house or drive a nice car but the attachment to these things are not there in the same way where one might believe that they actually do need these things for whatever reason .

I have mentioned before about not having a choice in matters, when I was drawn into meditation each day I was likened to a drug addict with a bad habit where I needed my meditative fix . My mum in a particular state of self awareness hardly ate and fasted often, because her mind body relationship reflected in the need for little food .. She didn't need creature comforts, those things were not in her mind .. If they are not in mind, then they do not exist . The lure of the sports car in mind reflects what's in mind in relation to the self . Is it love in mind is it fear, is it sex, is it pizza .. :)

I think many recognise a pattern for those that are selfless in that they are the givers .. You can't be a selfless taker, it doesn't work like that, the more aware one is of themselves the more they let go of until there is nothing left other than themselves, that's why even the attachment to food falls away and one only eats to survive ..

I like the saying as said before, one eats to live and not lives to eat ..


Where we do not give or receive, it is there that fear has interfered with our natural tendency to seek abundance for needs and to give of abundance where needed.



The more one is aware of self the more love reflects within their expression ... There is an 'abundance' of love already present what more do they need other than that and a survival kit lols, the universe provides one with all their needs in some shape or form, what their needs are and what one thinks their needs are can be miles apart .

In an ideal world everyone would have x amount of money, x amount of kids, 3/4 bedroom house, car, 1 holiday a year, 3 meals a day etc etc ..

It don't work like that .

Everyone's experience reflects their needs or requirements in the moment, from the selfish to the selfless . As every thread goes it will boil down to the awareness of self, because the self is everything in mind ..

x daz x

[starfox777]

Don't trust anything this guy Drunvalo says. He isn't an ethical person.

Here is a letter exposing his past:





This was sent into the Flower of Life Office at a time when Drunvalo and Bob Dratch were having conflicts with each other. This individual wrote in and was stating how deceived we all were by Dru and how if we knew his history would be shocked. I cannot vouch for the actual incidents in here cause I was not there, however Drunvalo’s character and repeating patterns and habits are soooo similar to what is happening today in and around our court events.

Below is a personal statement from an eyewitness to the beginning of Drunvalo Melchizedek's career. They have asked that they remain anonymous. This is a professional person and author that I have known for many years. --xxx

Original email received by xxx on 6 November 2002
************************************************** *
Hi xxx:
Here is a rendering of my years with Drunvalo. As you can see, it is of two levels. The first is a surface story, the later part is analysis and background. I am quite able to stand on the factual nature of every statement. However, I am not desirous of having my name attached to this as of yet, as I am seeking to build credibility by my own work, not as someone who let Drunvalo's cat out of the bag. If this can be shared in a discreet fashion, with people who need to know, I am OK with that. I am not sure how you can reassure me that this will not be made public, as we all know how email can propagate, even innocently.

[xxx adds: The author's name, and certain identifying details have been deleted from this version.]

Like Winter, Bernard Perona's (Drunvalo Melchizedek's) tale is long and weird. I believe these guys are ill and unlikely to be motivated by much other than their own greed and insecurity, their twisted pasts and tortured dreams. Unfortunately, they have found willing audiences in the New Age, among people who want to find something wrong with everything they have been taught before. The audiences are willing dupes, taken in by these reptilian-minded men. They are sad cases, really, very lost and insightless.

I hope this can be of some help. If it is too much, let me know what you need and I will see how to shorten it. It needs context to make it believable, which is why I have written this as I have. Yikes, what a long strange tale it is....and it ain't over yet. (wan smile) Hope you are doing very well,

[Name deleted as per request]
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is a bit of the tale:
I have had the odd distinction of having been present when a number of unusual events happened in the last 30+ years, and have played some small roles in them. Here I relate some details relating to one such era… I am very familiar with a time in the lives of Drunvalo Melchizedek, Bob Dratch and others. I worked closely with them for about 5 years. Thru this association I was introduced to many folks whose names you may recognize: Dan Winter, Stan Tenen, Slim Spurling, Mary Caroline Meadows, Gregg Braden, Glen Rein, the HeartMath mob (Lew Childres), Adam Trombly, Doug Gunton and a host of others. Some still have my admiration. Most do not. Spin Doctors...except for Tenen, Trombly and Braden, each is responsible for many years of confusion in many people's lives. And of them all, only Tenen has remained above suspicion entirely, in my opinion.


We begin:
I met Akbar, as he was known then, when a third party I will call B, introduced us. B had shown me a strange wire sculpture, a folding star that spun and wove a weird energy in the air. I asked where it came from and B offered to introduce me to the man who had given it to him. We met in a school bus outside of Taos, where Akbar lived. He had a small sewing machine repair business in the outskirts of Taos, where he had moved after living some years at the Lama Foundation. He showed us some drawings, talked about the wire sculpture-thing and offered to teach me a meditation about it, if I would promise to bring another person to learn it with me.
(B. and I) encouraged Akbar to gather his work into a curriculum. We helped him hone it, and helped him when he chose to move farther out of town to set up a school. We helped with the bills and visited often, setting things in motion.

B moved all of his belongings to the school and took up residence, and I kept working thru a divorce and the sale of my home in Colorado, planning to move to the new school. We convened a group of friends, kindred spirits, to focus energy into the founding of our new school and to work out a name for it. About 40 showed up. As we went around the circle, each describing our dreams for the school, some common themes came out. I still have my notes from that meeting.......

When it got to Akbar, he said he had something important to tell us. He announced then that he was no longer Akbar, but Drunvalo Melchizedek, that he was a walk-in who had stepped into the body of a man who had been killed in an alchemical experiment in Canada. He was taking over
the life of Akbar, and would appreciate it if we would refer to him from then on as Drunvalo. He then told us the school was to be called The Naakal Mystery School. He said the Naakals were the warrior/scholar/priests of Atlantis who spread the teachings of Atlantis around the world as it was disappearing under the waves.

We were all a bit taken aback by this peremptory style and the seeming overtaking of our democratic process, but the name for the school seemed like a good one, and we all agreed to proceed. Drunvalo was in his element. He was high on making new plans, and decided to buy the property next door, divide it up and sell lots to friends, thus affording a lot for himself. He said he was under orders from his Egyptian Guide to build an underground house to withstand the
coming planetary destruction, and he wanted to live with his friends there. He offered to hire me to build his house for him. I had been a commercial woodworker, furniture designer/craftsman and all around wood wizard for many years and this was a tantalizing offer. I finally sold the house in Colorado and moved to New Mexico, to build his underground house for him.

I moved to Garcia, a small town nearby, and began working on Drunvalo's house site. Several weeks into the project, I was walking between the site and the school offices, about 300 yards, and I came upon a large rattlesnake, lying across the path. We had dealt with an abundance of snakes that summer, disposing of them by picking them up on a shovel, dropping them in a five-gallon bucket and quickly closing the lid on them. We would then drive them to a location far from houses and release them.

I was not scared, as I had had many encounters with them in the days of my desert wanderings, so I stopped, watched and eventually sat down by the snake. He curled up under a sagebrush, very tense, watching and flicking his tongue to taste the volatile oils of my body that were in the air. Rattlesnakes can't hear you, but can feel you and "see" your scent, and they can 'see' your heat. This one could tell I wasn't dangerous, so he gradually relaxed. I sat quietly, watching, observing his breathing, and trying to match it. His head swung slowly back and forth, tongue flickering and waving but became finally still. He lowered his head, and lay still. At that moment, Drunvalo came upon me, sitting. He asked what I was doing, and I pointed to the snake.

He exclaimed and grabbed a steel post. He said, "We have to start killing them all! We can't let these snakes hurt anyone!" With that, he smashed the post down, stabbing the snake behind its head. He stomped and stabbed until the head came off, the body torn and bleeding, writhing in the dust.

The body continued to writhe. Squirming mindlessly, it twisted over and over.

I was stunned. Shocked, I could say nothing. Drunvalo told me to come in the house for lunch.....

After lunch I went home, very disturbed by what I had seen. I stopped off at the house that Drunvalo was living in, up the road, to see his girlfriend. She had asked me to stop by to discuss something important, but hadn't told me what it was about.

When she saw me, she knew something was bothering me, and asked what it was. I told her about the snake incident, and she gasped. She was horrified, angry. She had told Drunvalo that the snake situation was important, that we must treat all the snakes with reverence, and that she took a personal interest in protecting the snakes. She was furious. She told me she had asked me to stop by to propose that I be nominated, by her, to be the Supervisor of the Naakal Mystery School. She said she felt there were too many problems between Drunvalo and B, who by this time was living at the school, in the bus that Drunvalo had been living in when I met him, and that someone needed to be an intermediary. She felt that I was the most likely person for the job, since both respected me, I was living nearby, and had played an important role so far. I was a bit taken aback and also very proud of this sudden turn of events. Perhaps the snake represented a past that was being shed, and a passage from fear to freedom, a release of a primal energy into a new, higher form.

As I drove home to Garcia, I was filled with a powerful mixture of feelings. I had started off befriending the snake, overcoming all natural fears, moving with a sort of pure grace into relationship with a deadly adversary. Then, a cherished friend betrayed me, my new symbolic relationship and a whole set of dreams, by the senseless mutilation and killing of an innocent. From that, I was offered a position that was like the culmination of all my dreams. One day... Up, down, Up again..... Could I let the lesson of the snake be lost? Could I allow the plainly unaware, stupid actions of Drunvalo go un-noticed? The life of the snake was merged into my own. I was the reason it stopped, I was the one who pointed him out. I had been entranced by his beauty, his pure snake self. I could not let his death go for naught....

On reflection, and then discussing things with B, I came to see the situation in a clear but distressing light. B, whom I trust implicitly, lives by the Golden Rule. He gives where is need. He trusts completely in the cycle of life, that whatever he gives will eventually be returned. He trusts the flow, and he begins each relationship with trust. If he has come to distrust you, it is because the trust he originally gave you has been destroyed. Drunvalo, on the other hand, was convinced that by serving his needs well, creatively and completely, he would have such a surplus he could afford to give much away. He was capable of living simply, so he could give much to others once there was enough. He was not forthcoming, with trust, with intimacy or the personal parts of a human life. He was impersonal, distant. One had to earn his trust, if at all. His claim to being a walk-in was put in a new light. He was different than we were, his values seemed strange. He was walking his talk, alright…

These are two antithetical lifestyles, yet the two of them were trying to work and live side by side. B was committed to the idea that the school itself was the teaching, and that it should demonstrate all the points we were teaching, about a new relationship to the earth. We should have gardens, beauty, grace, sustainability, economic communalism. Much of B's time was spent on working on gardens, recycling systems, kitchen management, maintenance tasks and general improvements to everything.

He was contributing to the growth of the school by his endless lists of contacts, bringing them to the school for 3 day seminars. He was the one who lined up the food for the classes, made sure the firewood was cut, fixed the tankless hot water heater, got flat tires fixed in town, and all the endless chores of living remote. He also arranged for the building of a kiva/sweatlodge, a magical half underground round room with a firepit in the middle and wide adobe benches in a circle around the walls, a wonderful space for us to dream, meditate and teach.

Drunvalo spent his days on the phone, writing, meditating or entertaining the many visitors. Especially the female visitors....there are many women who were taken to his bed, whose lives were made turbulent by his cold and impersonal search for a female companion. It was sad scene to those of us who watched…

Drunvalo was, according to him, a master of "Egyptian Tantra", a secret system of sexual energy control that was part of the Atlantean legacy. He taught vague ideas around the subject, and a few clear meditation images, and was thinking of offering special classes in this. Many of the women who came were invited to his bed. He was searching, and finally had invited one to live with him several months earlier. She had invited me to consider being the Supervisor of the school....

I was nominated, accepted and installed as Supervisor. Drunvalo and I had been working for some time on a system for him to have slides of his images, the basic teachings about the geometric forms, that he could project onto the rear of a screen, that would show through, so he could be in front of it to talk. I had loaned him a camera, helped him locate the sources for the rear-projection system, and helped photograph the images one of my close friends had drawn for him. B had done his usual magic, contacting people in California, setting up a series of workshops for Drunvalo.

He set off in his trusty Volkswagen camper, to do several weeks of engagements, as fully prepared as we could help him to be. I settled into the quagmire of taxes, the situation of the school and its sales tax reporting, and the income taxes for the school which had never been filed in two years of existence. It was a mess, and a lot of tiny s****s of receipts and check stubs had to be sorted out and made into a report. It was the least favorite of all occupations for my time that I could think of, but the house building was on hold until Drunvalo could return with money to continue.

Upon Drunvalo's return, we had a meeting. We congratulated him on his successful trip, the reports of his classes were glowing, the people very excited by what they had heard from him. When we asked him how much money had been earned, he told us he had $15,000 in cash from the trip! We were excited....we could pay some outstanding bills, make some improvements to some necessary things, and do more classes. I gave them my report on the taxes, telling them I was only the preparer, and was not going to sign the documents, since I was not involved in the management of the corporation during the time covered by the report. The name on the corporation papers was Drunvalo's (Bernard Perona). B told of his work on various projects, and prospects for the next series of classes.

At that point, Drunvalo quietly told us that we were mistaken in thinking that we were going to spend any of the money on Naakal, that he had earned the money, and it was his. He was planning on hiring a professional builder to finish his house, and he had no intention of signing the tax report. With that, it all dissolved. We could hardly believe our ears. We had been betrayed. There was nothing to be done at that point, but find a way out. In the end, he signed the tax papers. B packed his things onto a truck and moved to land his family owned, about 100 miles away. He had moved his entire lifetime of collections to Naakal to be part of the school. He had committed himself and his assets, and was now out of the picture. Drunvalo went on to make entirely unfounded public accusations against me and B. He told public gatherings that we were agents of the government, drug dealers, and he had had to banish us from his list of friends. We were both damaged by these lies, but did not want to contend with his madness anymore.

I reeled about for a while, dizzy from the turn of events. I had been on a high since the day of the snake, walking with purpose in every step, powerfully aware of the life that had been given on the day of my stepping into my role, my supervisory role of a school of ancient mysteries....

Eventually Drunvalo sold the property to Gregg Braden, who had been a student. When it was sold, Drunvalo made off with the $35,000 down payment funds that had been supplied by friends of B's and mine, when the property was originally purchased. He never would pay it back,refusing when confronted, making up a story that he had been relieved of the debt verbally, in a conversation that had never happened.....

Now, some background details that have come to light since those days: Drunvalo Melchizedek is mentally ill, in my opinion. He suffers from a New Age disease, perhaps identifiable in traditional psychology (split personality disorder? Multiple personality disorder?). He claims to be a "walk-in". He sees himself as not responsible for anything he does as Drunvalo, since that is a 13th dimensional being of the Order of Alpha and Omega of the Melchizedek lineage, who has overshadowed his personality. He claims to have died in a failed alchemical accident in 1972 and was entered into by DM. He has told me, face to face, many times over, that he cannot be held responsible for what DM does. He told me in September, 1997, that he could not recall actions of his own, often only 20 minutes later. He then demonstrated this by trying to steal a portion of my life's work while standing right behind my chair, less than twenty minutes later. This happened after apologizing profusely, and apparently sincerely to me, while on his knees next to my chair in a public dining room.

I recall his pride in being so powerful that he could have conversations with Lucifer and all of the dark hordes. On several occasions he led us as a group into dark realms, causing on one memorable occasion a near catastrophic whirlwind on a calm day, when windows were blown open, animals outside ran around screeching and neighing in terror and chaos was set loose. After about five minutes of this, Drunvalo calmly led us into a new part of his experimental Group Merkabah, and everything returned immediately to calm. The winds stopped, the animals returned to their normal activities.

He claimed to have helped to restore the Angel of Light, Lucifer, to his former status as the First Son of God, by special ceremonies he had conducted in Egypt and the South Pacific, where he claimed to have done rituals that re-balanced the planet, making it once more a Sacred World, now that Lucifer was redeemed.

Let's put his story in perspective:
He was a live-in student at the Lama Foundation for years, where the ISC was (Intensive Studies Center). This was a sufi repository of texts and manuscripts built around an amazing library (since destroyed by fire....). He was among some heavies there. It is likely that he gained access to some ancient texts while there, and began assembling his story of divine revelation. What he was working with is described as dangerous in the original literature, for good reason. The Catholic Inquisition was set in motion centuries ago to root out this very set of teachings, as it was making people go mad, setting Satan loose…

He left there in some kind of upset that I never got to the bottom of. He took up residence in a school bus, where he was discovered by B. He claimed to be in direct contact with a 35,000 year old, still-living being named Chik-U-Tet or Thoth, who was transmitting to him a series of lessons he was to give to the world. He also claimed to have been given the Masonic Keys by a mysterious visitor and the Metatron's Cube wire-model by a stranded ET whom he helped return home.

All this was compounded into his Flower of Life teachings, which we now know are nothing but a hodgepodge of stolen, irresponsible and incomplete meditation techniques that he cobbled together with amateur geometry and claimed to be an inspired revelation from an unquestionable source.

He always maintained that he had no problem with sharing his work with all sides, all agencies, all types of people, that the work was so powerful in itself it would not be possible for it to be abused. He taught that Lucifer had been healed, in part due to his (Drunvalo's) intervention and mediation, had been forgiven, and was now on the side of good, working to restore what he had damaged. And that ALL aliens are good and not to be feared....

And he is a pathological liar, incessantly remaking his stories, embroidering more fanatsies onto the robe with which he surrounds truth. There are two "tectonic plates" in his being, and they don't meet well. He is a sick man, also charming and polite, who is dangerous on many levels, having used the resources of many to aid his own personal agendas. He is supremely selfish....His many abandoned children could tell the story....

If we look at the activities of the last five years, only a few of them, all public, will reveal something of the man. He was involved with a man named Slim Sperling and another named Bob Dratch for a while. Drunvalo claimed that they had created a set of devices that cleared the atmosphere of all pollution, and attested in public that this had been done under government auspices and a test had been done in Mexico City, where a wall of pollution could be seen as it boiled against the force field of their instruments. Many other claims were made, such as a reduction in crime in Denver as a result of their experiments, and many people were induced to buy these devices.

Then it all began to fall apart, as people discovered they had been duped. Drunvalo retracted it all, ended his relationship with Sperling and Dratch and they now refuse to answer any questions about the episode. Another story: in the last few years Drunvalo took the story of the Kogi Indians of South America and tried to make advantage for himself out of them. They are a weird tribe who practice a fascist-type feudalism with slaves and cocaine eating priests who were made famous by a pseudo documentary.

Drunvalo began claiming he was being taught by them to communicate without words, across any distance. Drunvalo asked for financial support for his work, which he assured his followers was going to be made available to them all and would save the world. Eventually, as you will see if you visit his web sites, Drunvalo claimed that he was not going to talk about any of this any more "to protect the Kogi" and asked that no one visit them in any attempt to verify anything he had said, as this would make things difficult for the Kogi. In other words, Drunvalo had been caught out in another lie.

And one final bit:
I am a close friend of his personal assistant for many years. She was fired by Drunvalo when she confronted him for misusing non-profit funds. A few weeks after her removal, Drunvalo forged her signature on a check and put more non-profit money into his own accounts. This came under FBI investigation, and may still be under investigation. [Tenen adds: I can verify this. I spoke with Melchizedek's wife of the time this incident occurred, and she confirmed this information independently. Also, because of our ongoing lawsuit against Mr. Daniel Winter, Cynthia and I were in communication with this personal assistant of Melchizedek's both just before, and just after, she left or was fired. Until I read this email, I did not know that the author of this personal statement knew these facts.]

Drunvalo is the type of man who claims that any legal actions against him are inspired by dark forces trying to keep the truth from being told. He is a dyed-in-the-wool conspiracist, believing that anyone who opposes him is an agent of dark forces.

It is odd that the man who says that there are no dark forces anymore, that Lucifer is abroad and is a good guy now, and that invites anyone of any type or motivation to delve deeply into his stolen teachings without concern for how they might use it, to claim that he is under suspicion, not for illegal acts, but for "trying to tell the truth".

His association with Dan Winter is long and close. Both are delusional and dangerous in my opinion.
[END STATEMENT]

[God-Like]

Don't trust anything this guy Drunvalo says. He isn't an ethical person.



Every action / deed has it's place in this world, the deceiver, the deceived, the peacemaker, the truth bearer .

x daz x

[7luminaries]

Hey :)

The lesser the ego the lesser the needs for whom would be needy .. The lesser the person the lesser the need for an abundance of food and wealth and material gains, it really is just a reflection of self awareness .. It doesn't mean you can't live in a nice house or drive a nice car but the attachment to these things are not there in the same way where one might believe that they actually do need these things for whatever reason .

Hello there :) I agree in part. I also realise that we have needs on many levels, and we have imbalance on many levels. Not just material imbalance and greed -- that is simply more common and obvious. But emotional, intellectual, and spiritual imbalance is no less an obstruction to growth and being and wholeness. A vast portion of this imbalance is failing to own and address our human needs, whilst failing to share and give from our boundless gifts and abundances.

Buddha's mortification of the flesh in pursuit of enlightenment was utilitarian, using or punishing his body as a means to his desired ends. And he was ultimately missing the point, until he found a more balanced, loving way with himself and his outlook. And learned to receive as well as to give.

I have mentioned before about not having a choice in matters, when I was drawn into meditation each day I was likened to a drug addict with a bad habit where I needed my meditative fix . My mum in a particular state of self awareness hardly ate and fasted often, because her mind body relationship reflected in the need for little food .. She didn't need creature comforts, those things were not in her mind .. If they are not in mind, then they do not exist . The lure of the sports car in mind reflects what's in mind in relation to the self . Is it love in mind is it fear, is it sex, is it pizza .. :)

That is very liberating :) However, taken to extreme, reality intrudes upon what we say or demand or expect our needs and desires are or will be, if in fact we are too far out of balance with ourselves and/or our larger reality to sustain that way of being.

The physical body we may seek to mortify or control in some way will simply break down or cease to be, if we do not love and care for it and allow the self to receive on all levels as needed. Here our perceived emotional and spiritual needs must be expanded to allow for all our needs to be addressed, including our physical needs. We must give and receive, to and from self. Self. And other selves.

I think many recognise a pattern for those that are selfless in that they are the givers .. You can't be a selfless taker, it doesn't work like that, the more aware one is of themselves the more they let go of until there is nothing left other than themselves, that's why even the attachment to food falls away and one only eats to survive ..

I like the saying as said before, one eats to live and not lives to eat ..

True saying!

But you speak again only of selfless givers and selfish takers. That is still the old paradigm in the land of the blind. And neither blind giving nor blind taking are healthy, ultimately. One is enabling and one is exploitative. The martyr and the thief. I agree they exist, but this broken, utilitarian "exchange" is not the only form of exchange that exists. True exchange in love and gratitude also exists. Just not in the land of the blind.

The land of the awakened is one with mutual giving and receiving, in love and gratitude, at the level of the persons. I.e., person to person and soul to soul. It is personalistic in spirit and in practise, never utilitarian. For every giver also receives and every receiver also gives, within the flow of love and connection between souls.

The more one is aware of self the more love reflects within their expression ... There is an 'abundance' of love already present what more do they need other than that and a survival kit lols, the universe provides one with all their needs in some shape or form, what their needs are and what one thinks their needs are can be miles apart .

In an ideal world everyone would have x amount of money, x amount of kids, 3/4 bedroom house, car, 1 holiday a year, 3 meals a day etc etc ..

It don't work like that .

Everyone's experience reflects their needs or requirements in the moment, from the selfish to the selfless . As every thread goes it will boil down to the awareness of self, because the self is everything in mind ..

x daz x

Again you are back to what a person don't need, which IMO is the same as focusing only on what one does needs. It's not about being above humanity and the flow of love and of life, dear Dazzer, just as it's not about groveling in the mud either. It's not a game one wins by needing "less" (whether things or connections/people), just as one doesn't win by having or getting "more" (whether things or people) . Granted many still need to learn the latter lesson, but the former then becomes equally important. Equally important.

Those who only give and do not seek to receive will ultimately fail to give and must hoard when spent (i.e., when they feel a lack), because they fear vulnerability and do not recognise their own needs. One cannot expand in growth whilst the gates of one's gardens are firmly closed to light and love and full immersion in the human experience with others and with the world.

And likewise all who do not give but only seek to receive will ultimately take instead. They too seek to hoard by thievery from the gardens of others, but ultimately it matters not. They too fear vulnerability and do not recognise others' needs. They too cannot grow whilst they seek only to steal from the gardens of others rather than nurturing those gardens in a sustainable fashion.

Hoarding on either side is about fear and stagnation. All hoarding, whether from fear of receiving or fear of giving, breaks the circuit and disrupts the flow. The flow of the way of all things, which is of truth, and of love, and of Spirit.

Whilst exchange in mutual reciprocity, both giving and receiving, is all about love and connection in Spirit.
It's about flowing from the shore to the ocean and back again, receiving in love and gratitude, and giving from love and gracious abundance.

Peace & blessings Teddy :hug3:
Panda

[muffin]

Those who only give and do not seek to receive will ultimately fail to give and must hoard when spent (i.e., when they feel a lack), because they fear vulnerability and do not recognise their own needs. One cannot expand in growth whilst the gates of one's gardens are firmly closed to light and love and full immersion in the human experience with others and with the world.

Peace & blessings Teddy :hug3:
Panda
Think again, for there is more than one way to give.

[God-Like]

A vast portion of this imbalance is failing to own and address our human needs, whilst failing to share and give from our boundless gifts and abundances.


Hey :)

I suppose it would help if you share with us what our human needs are on a basic level ... how many bathrooms do you need panda :)

Again you are back to what a person don't need, which IMO is the same as focusing only on what one does needs. It's not about being above humanity and the flow of love and of life, dear Dazzer, just as it's not about groveling in the mud either .




You seem to put humanity it to a box of sorts, its not like that . If one goes with the flow of their own reflection then that's all that one is doing .. For some they get absorbed within the selfless aspect, it's not about trying to be above humanity, because humanity as a conditioned condition just reflects conditions lol, is it humane to poo in the toilet or poo in the woods ... is it humane to pick one's nose ..

Behaviour is for most conditioned ..

Buddha's mortification of the flesh in pursuit of enlightenment was utilitarian, using or punishing his body as a means to his desired ends. And he was ultimately missing the point, until he found a more balanced, loving way with himself and his outlook. And learned to receive as well as to give.




Certain extremities in behaviour bring one to a point of understanding or a point of realization . Perhaps Buddha's point was to miss the point in order to know ..

x daz x

[7luminaries]

Think again, for there is more than one way to give.

Hey there Miss Muffin...I'm not here to convince anyone :wink: We are all free to think as we like.
There are many ways to do anything, but IMO, following the example of Buddha, ultimately there is always balance, harmony and reciprocity in all things.

It is up to us to figure out how and when, etc., we find our balance, harmony, and reciprocity.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Hey :)

I suppose it would help if you share with us what our human needs are on a basic level ... how many bathrooms do you need panda :)

Hey there Teddy :)
The one very old loo I have is functional, and therefore it meets code :tongue: So that'll do. However I am talking not only about material needs, but about emotional, intellectual, and spiritual needs as well. Our human needs lie in all of those areas. And therefore in finding the balance in all of those areas or realms, as well.


You seem to put humanity it to a box of sorts, its not like that . If one goes with the flow of their own reflection then that's all that one is doing .. For some they get absorbed within the selfless aspect, it's not about trying to be above humanity, because humanity as a conditioned condition just reflects conditions lol, is it humane to poo in the toilet or poo in the woods ... is it humane to pick one's nose ..

No, Teddy I absolutely do not put humanity in a box :icon_eek: -- so thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify. :wink:

What I said is there is no prize for trying to be the least connected to the material aspects of one's life, nor for being the most indulgent or greedy regarding those aspects. Those two things are not opposites in any way -- they are simply often viewed that way because they are two common extremes in our current way of thinking -- which often is all too centred around either worshipping or castigating the material realm. Represented at core by the innocent glory of the temple that houses our soul.

Both extremes of material disengagement or material indulgence are readily and frequently used for escapism from one's full immersion in one's individual life...and to that extent, both are forms of misdirection. Neither necessarily get one any closer to one's centre, to one's harmony.

One can certainly be selfless (by whatever definition one chooses) whilst caring for the self with love (not indulgence), or one can be selfless at the expense of the basic needs of the self. One way is balanced, and the other is not. Imbalance is ultimately unsustainable...it's only the timeline that varies.
The middle way offers balance, harmony, and full immersion in the here and now -- which paradoxically is always ultimately necessary for true spiritual growth, and for wisdom.

This was Buddha's example and his message. And noooo (lol), he did not "have to" spend all those years mortifying the flesh to learn his lesson. At first he chose to mortify the flesh consciously, because he had the fixed idea that doing so would lead to enlightenment. As we know, that seems fairly simplistic...and it is. So initially, he actively resisted the critical lessons of balance, harmony, compassion and reciprocity presented to him by his own temple (his body) -- until he finally admitted the wisdom of the teaching...hence the middle way and balance in all things.

Buddha tried to control his material world (his body and his surroundings), to bend his body and the world around him to his way, until he finally realised the superior wisdom of doing otherwise. And, once again paradoxically, only then was he able to bend the spiritual learning of the entire globe his way. Because he went with the flow and thus was able to partake of the wisdom of All and simply reveal truths that were always at hand.

I personally do not see Buddha as the greatest spiritual teacher.
But I see him as perhaps one of the greatest examples of the spiritual student. And in this way, he is still a great teacher.

Behaviour is for most conditioned ..

Certain extremities in behaviour bring one to a point of understanding or a point of realization . Perhaps Buddha's point was to miss the point in order to know ..

x daz x

That's true. Though he certainly didn't have to live there for many years. That required complicity and choice on many levels.

I'd say that the length of time required for him to accept the wisdom of love, compassion, balance, and harmony in all things had more to do with his initial preconceived notions and wrong thinking. His initial belief that mortifying the flesh and "getting away from it all" would lead to enlightenment. Because all he'd known had been a charmed life in the palace, Buddha was convinced that the opposite lifestyle would be the ticket. Well, it was sort of the "opposite" of palace life, except that it was aceticism by his choice and without the disease, dirt, illiteracy, forced hunger, and hopelessness of most living outside the palace.

Buddha was so sheltered and narrow-minded in his naivete, initially. Like many of us in the modern age living such sheltered and precious lives, with the modern conveniences, the 3 to 5 baths, etc. His early years (pre-enlightenment) lacked authentic connection with nature, with others, with other cultures, with self, and with God/Spirit. He was the quintessential broken modern man, ahead of his time, who has tonnes o' stuff and learning, and yet nothing of enduring value within. What raises Buddha up as a model is that 1) he came to see his lack, and 2) he overcame his arrogance and hard-headedness, and yielded to the love and wisdom of Spirit. And THEN he began to make real progress.

Buddha had no particular perspective for forming his initial ideas of how to seek enlightenment, and yet he was convinced of their rightness. So very modern...the witless, unfounded arrogance, even in his garb of simplicity and humility :tongue: So only after years of pounding his head against his own barriers did he realise that the key to enlightenment had been in his own hand all along. He had simply chosen not to see it, until he first chose to admit that his earlier ways were misguided.

It's like the philosophy of 12-step programmes..first, one admits the problems in one's behaviour and the biases in one's thinking.
And only then, can recovery begin. Only then can we see. :hug3:

Peace & blessings,
Panda

[muffin]

Hey there Miss Muffin...I'm not here to convince anyone :wink: We are all free to think as we like.
HA HA, I'm sorry but that's priceless, I've been called many thing's that would be up with the top few :wink: and thanks for making my day :D

There are many ways to do anything, but IMO, following the example of Buddha, ultimately there is always balance, harmony and reciprocity in all things.
To each there own.
It is up to us to figure out how and when, etc., we find our balance, harmony, and reciprocity.

Peace & blessings,
7L
To a point and others it walks into their life's.

And 7luminaries have a fun and enjoyable day :smile:

Miss Muffin :tongue:

[God-Like]

No, Teddy I absolutely do not put humanity in a box -- so thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify.

What I said is there is no prize for trying to be the least connected to the material aspects of one's life, nor for being the most indulgent or greedy regarding those aspects.



Hey Monkey :)

You are correct perhaps in that there are no prizes, nor are there winners or losers but what there is, is direct experience of such extremes, the rich, the poor, the vanity, the humility, the self, the no self .. In that respect 'anything and everything goes' so one cannot really suggest that another's way likened to the Buddha was out of sorts or out of balance or in some way suffering unnecessarily .


Both extremes of material disengagement or material indulgence are readily and frequently used for escapism from one's full immersion in one's individual life...and to that extent, both are forms of misdirection. Neither necessarily get one any closer to one's centre, to one's harmony.



I agree escapism can be the catalyst for such behaviours but then again escapism is an experience in its own right, just as much as facing up to life is and taking it on the chin .. if we go with the flow as we have talked about before one simply does what comes to the fore, some try and go within, some run a mile, some turn to the bottle, some starve themselves ... it's the element of trying to take control or renouncing it because one cannot take responsibility for themselves .

This was Buddha's example and his message. And noooo (lol), he did not "have to" spend all those years mortifying the flesh to learn his lesson. At first he chose to mortify the flesh consciously, because he had the fixed idea that doing so would lead to enlightenment. As we know, that seems fairly simplistic...and it is. So initially, he actively resisted the critical lessons of balance, harmony, compassion and reciprocity presented to him by his own temple (his body) -- until he finally admitted the wisdom of the teaching...hence the middle way and balance in all things.




How I see it is that Buddha or anyone else come to that can only realize something when they realize that something, therefore anything inbetween is necessary in order to come to such a point . So when we talk about being out of balance or being extreme then that is part of the path to realization of self . It's the jacobs ladder analogy to a tee, where one ascends to the very peak in order to descend to the bottom integrating the awareness from above . This is god-man in effect . Without going to the extreme and taking their attention off or away from the physical then they would never reach the uppermost rung .

From one perspective one might say Buddha was an extremist and way out of balance and put his body through unnecessary sufferings but sufferings are necessary . No pain no gain remember :)

x daz x