Can anyone tell me why ? [Archive]

Mind's Eye

21-01-2014, 01:20 PM

Perhaps even more difficult to face to face and debate with any monk here in Malaysia or anywhere ............from many posting here , I have reason to believe there are so many master or teacher of Buddhism in here and I just hope they agree to debate with me sincerely for my own learning process .
Thks
CSEe

Why debate, why not just discuss? If you are looking to learn, that means you lack a certain knowledge of the path you seek to follow... so how can you debate what you are not fully educated about? You will only succeed in throwing up verbal road blocks in front of the one who is trying to enter into a discussion with you... and naturally, they will probably get a bit annoyed and avoid you in the future.

So you might try having a conversation with someone and asking honest questions rather than labeling it a debate; most masters will not enter into a debate with a pupil. And really, a debate is to enter into a more heated discussion by two people with opposing views; not when someone is seeking to learn. What are your intentions with debating? To try and prove to a Buddhist Master that he is wrong and you posses more knowledge then he or she?

The word, "debate" doesn't seem to make much sense here.

tttin

21-01-2014, 01:50 PM

maejin

21-01-2014, 01:50 PM

Mind's Eye Why debate, why not just discuss? If you are looking to learn, that means you lack a certain knowledge of the path you seek to follow... so how can you debate what you are not fully educated about? You will only succeed in throwing up verbal road blocks in front of the one who is trying to enter into a discussion with you... and naturally, they will probably get a bit annoyed and avoid you in the future.

Mind's Eye, "debate" is not necessarily viewed the same way in Buddhist traditions as it is in the west. Debate in fact has been very important in the growth and development of Buddhism (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd52.htm) and some debates have resulted in some of the best theoretical works produced in buddhism (such as the work entitled "the debate of king milinda" http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/milinda.pdf)

maejin

21-01-2014, 01:59 PM

Hi CSEe,

Could you give me your idea why there is a person was born in rich family and was healthy, and there is a person was born in poor family and was sickness.

with my current experience of Buddhism (not master), I think we can discuss and learn together although I am not good in English :)

The Buddha said that such variations in human beings are due to karma from their past lives. For example those that were generous in previous lives are reborn to wealth, those that were violent are reborn to weakness.

Mind's Eye

21-01-2014, 02:17 PM

Mind's Eye, "debate" is not necessarily viewed the same way in Buddhist traditions as it is in the west. Debate in fact has been very important in the growth and development of Buddhism (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd52.htm (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buddhanet.net%2Fe-learning%2Fdharmadata%2Ffdd52.htm)) and some debates have resulted in some of the best theoretical works produced in buddhism (such as the work entitled "the debate of king milinda" http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/milinda.pdf (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buddhanet.net%2Fpd f_file%2Fmilinda.pdf))

In Buddhist culture, to debate is not to fight with another, it is to fight against ignorance as in truth no one loses a debate, it is only understanding that wins, clearing concepts for both sides. Debating in this way is not easy and takes a great deal of maturity as it does not involve ego or strict attachment to views as you would suppose from the standard phenomena we term as debate in modern society.

You see in a "discussion" one does not specifically attack concepts to see how well they hold up against scrutiny. You dont really get as far in "discussing" things as you do in a debate where concepts are attacked to see how strong they are. This of course is an attack against concepts and theories not the people espousing them. And in the modern age we view debate negatively because we hold our theories so dearly that an attack on them is perceived as an attack on ourselves.

I can agree with that, but many people from many cultures do not debate successfully in this way... It generally turns out to be an argument because one or the other gets too sharp with words or someone gets ticked off...LOL

Maybe the gathering of learned masters can flow along in a healthy and non-attacking debate... but among the general populace, it's gonna turn into a hash slinging contest brother! :D

maejin

21-01-2014, 02:32 PM

Maybe the gathering of learned masters can flow along in a healthy and non-attacking debate... but among the general populace, it's gonna turn into a hash slinging contest brother! :D

Yes I hope that we on this forum can all strive to be learned masters rather than the general populace :smile:

CSEe

21-01-2014, 02:44 PM

Hi Mind's Eye , you said "Why debate, why not just discuss? If you are looking to learn, that means you lack a certain knowledge of the path you seek to follow... so how can you debate what you are not fully educated about? You will only succeed in throwing up verbal road blocks in front of the one who is trying to enter into a discussion with you... and naturally, they will probably get a bit annoyed and avoid you in the future." Unquote...

Perhaps debate will prepare the teacher that I will challenge not only their view but also mine .........dear Mind's Eye , perhaps Buddhism is beyond knowledge , is not something we know or something we wish to know or something we will know ......is perhaps realization on own self , own emotions so by debating with others , I will explore and learn more .

You said " So you might try having a conversation with someone and asking honest questions rather than labeling it a debate; most masters will not enter into a debate with a pupil. And really, a debate is to enter into a more heated discussion by two people with opposing views; not when someone is seeking to learn. What are your intentions with debating? To try and prove to a Buddhist Master that he is wrong and you posses more knowledge then he or she?
The word, "debate" doesn't seem to make much sense here.Un-quote
Perhaps in Buddhism there is no right or wrong , no true or false , no good or bad so how could anyone is wrong in Buddhism ? Right or wrong , true or false , good or bad is only exist in human knowledge .........but Buddhism to me currently is beyond knowledge ..........

CSEe

21-01-2014, 02:50 PM

Hi CSEe,

Could you give me your idea why there is a person was born in rich family and was healthy, and there is a person was born in poor family and was sickness?

With my current experience of Buddhism (not master), I think we can discuss and learn together although I am not good in English :)

In my current understanding ,Buddhism is not an answering machine to fulfill our desire to know , perhaps you should explore your desire to know rather then to find the answer to fulfill your desire to know ...........
To my current understanding in Buddhism there is no rich or poor , no sick or healthy as all condition is in a process , a condition that one in during own process into emptiness back into nothingness and this process is known to me as Buddhism.....

CSEe

21-01-2014, 02:53 PM

The Buddha said that such variations in human beings are due to karma from their past lives. For example those that were generous in previous lives are reborn to wealth, those that were violent are reborn to weakness.

What about you ? What is your say ?.....I wish to learn from you.......

CSEe

21-01-2014, 02:57 PM

I can agree with that, but many people from many cultures do not debate successfully in this way... It generally turns out to be an argument because one or the other gets too sharp with words or someone gets ticked off...LOL

Maybe the gathering of learned masters can flow along in a healthy and non-attacking debate... but among the general populace, it's gonna turn into a hash slinging contest brother! :D

There was a monk told me a story of a teacher keep pouring water into a pupil cup trying to explain to the pupil that the pupil mind is full and cannot take in ......I told the monk perhaps is the teacher mind which has overflowed .....
To me Buddhism is about learning from own self or others NEVER about teaching ...perhaps no one including Siddharta himself can teach Buddhism to others .....as to me Buddhism is beyond knowledge

LillyMoon

21-01-2014, 03:03 PM

Personally, No one can master anything, After all, we never stop learning.

CSEe

21-01-2014, 09:57 PM

To me , debating is not a form to defend own view or to prove others are in wrong or even to prove we are right ....to me , the reason I wish to debate especially with those who currently teaching Buddhism , claiming own self as master or teacher is because I cant understand what is their reason that makes them to teach and to discover own reason in my own process of learning......this is because to my current understanding , Buddhism is beyond knowledge and it is something impossible to teach even for Siddharta Gautama himself .........so what is the reason that currently there are hundreds of thousand teacher out there ?...............
If in knowledge or skill like in education , maths , sport , cooking , hand craft or even in sex ......yes we can have teachers that show us their skill / knowledge and teaches us ...but to me Buddhism is realization on own self , is you knowing your emotions , realizing your emotions , accepting your emotion so how could Dalai Lama knows you realize your emotion less than he realize his own emotion and teach you to realize your emotion ?........

So to all the teacher out there , please tell me why you think you are a teacher and teach others Buddhism .................I really wish to discover your reason for my own learning process .

tttin

22-01-2014, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by CSEe
In my current understanding ,Buddhism is not an answering machine to fulfill our desire to know , perhaps you should explore your desire to know rather then to find the answer to fulfill your desire to know ...........
To my current understanding in Buddhism there is no rich or poor , no sick or healthy as all condition is in a process , a condition that one in during own process into emptiness back into nothingness and this process is known to me as Buddhism.....

Thanks CSEe,
If a poor or sick person face to you and ask you a question why he was born in poor family or always be sick, do you still answer like you answer me? Let me know your idea.

CSEe

22-01-2014, 04:05 AM

Thanks CSEe,
If a poor or sick person face to you and ask you a question why he was born in poor family or always be sick, do you still answer like you answer me? Let me know your idea.

In my current understanding of Buddhism , all being regardless living or non-living , human / animal / plant / micro-orgsm / table / pen / computer on your table is all same and equal ......I am same and equal to all and same and equal to the dirt under your shoe ...........and all being regardless living or non-living is always alone in own natural process freeing own polluted energy towards freedom of it and back into original condition of nothingness - The Buddha .

If a person born sick or poor or handicap , that is never their choice as Buddhism is not a choice , we cannot choose whether we want to in or out of Buddhism .....we are always in Buddhism ......nothing is outside of Buddhism for all living or non-living is all the same .
In my current understanding of Buddhism , nothing is belong to me nor family , material even "my" body is never owned by me .........and regardless what condition I in , I am in Buddhism ........always never my choice but is natural .

So if a person born without both legs , that is not his choice but in Buddhism he is in his own condition to realize his existence , same and equal as any human ........he is always alone in his world and his journey but he has a choice to choose his path , has a choice to awaken same as any human .............
In my current understanding of Buddhism , all emotion regardless love , joy , greed , fear , ego is all the same ....we suffer because we choose to use knowledge as the basis , that is current human culture . So if we poor , sick , lost love one we suffer ............that is because our knowledge tell us what is rich , what is healthy and our love one is ours .....in Buddhism as what I currently understand , we owned nothing .........so my daughter is same and equal as the dirt under my shoe ........and whether I become a millionare tomorrow or get cancer tomorrow is just part of my realization process on my emotion as the body is never belong to me , the money is never belong to me ................and death is the process of the material body that never connected to me ......

This is my current understanding of Buddhism but I am far from accepting it as I am still full of pollutant....still in learning process .

tttin

22-01-2014, 08:01 AM

Thanks CSEe,

If everything are same, why Gautama Buddha teach us should do good thing instead of bad thing?

If everyone are same and equal, murderer and normal person are same?

If your Buddhism experience (about "same" and "nothingness") is from sources on internet or teaching of someone, please show or re-tell me.

maejin

22-01-2014, 10:38 AM

In my current understanding of Buddhism , all emotion regardless love , joy , greed , fear , ego is all the same ....we suffer because we choose to use knowledge as the basis , that is current human culture . So if we poor , sick , lost love one we suffer ............that is because our knowledge tell us what is rich , what is healthy and our love one is ours .....in Buddhism as what I currently understand , we owned nothing .........so my daughter is same and equal as the dirt under my shoe ........and whether I become a millionare tomorrow or get cancer tomorrow is just part of my realization process on my emotion as the body is never belong to me , the money is never belong to me ................and death is the process of the material body that never connected to me ......

It is not the same CSE. There is suffering and there is happiness. Your daughter to you may be the same as the dirt under your shoe, but the dirt under your shoe does not suffer. The process of realization is what leads out of suffering, through the understanding of the three characteristics of nature (impermanence, suffering, non-self) and the cultivation of the 7 factors of enlightenment we go beyond suffering. Therefore to reach self realization we must help others and grow in love and compassion. That is why the Buddha taught. If all things were the same as dirt under your shoe then the Buddha would never have taught and there is no point in gaining enlightenment. but it is not like that.
Sentient beings i.e beings that can feel think and know are not dirt. They are important. Also it is because of your past good karma that you are able to live comfortably and discuss and debate on the internet, if you consider everything as dirt there is no motivation to improve or change or to help yourself or others which is the true basis of the teaching of the Buddha, that of progress and freedom.
Therefore in one sense we can say that all things are the same that pain and pleasure, happiness and suffering and rich and poor are the same (in theory it is correct) but in practice it is not correct because to gain enlightenment you have to practice the "four right efforts" - 1) To arouse and grow that which is good in us (thought, speech, action), 2) To maintain that which is good in us, 3) To eradicate that which is bad in us (thought, speech, action) 4) To make sure that which is bad does not arise again once it is eradicated.
So as long as you see everything as same CSE you will not progress. In theory it is ok to say everything is the same. But in practice everything is not the same.

CSEe

22-01-2014, 11:04 AM

Hi tttin , you said I quote "Thanks CSEe,

If everything are same, why Gautama Buddha teach us should do good thing instead of bad thing? Un-quote

Perhaps if we accepting Gautama words as a form of knowledge , just like we learned in school ...yes indeed there is good or bad , right or wrong , true and false........and if we follow the knowledge , we will confused ourselves and is common human culture .
His words is never a referral for Buddhism but is a great source for all to learn , to discover , to realize .........and with that realization , we will see there is no good or bad as we could learned from the good or the bad ........

In my current understanding of Buddhism , Dalai Lama words or Siddharta's words is same as Osama Bin Laden action as we could learn from both ......
Osama could learn from Dalai Lama same as Dalai Lama could learn from Osama action .........

You said " If everyone are same and equal, murderer and normal person are same? Un-quote
YES , in Buddhism both are the same as murderer is in own process to discover his emotion ....his action will teaches him , his action will provide a great learning lesson for his victim , his victim family to discover their love towards the victim and the anger towards the killer ............

You said " If your Buddhism experience (about "same" and "nothingness") is from sources on internet or teaching of someone, please show or re-tell me.Un-quote

That is my current understanding , is me now and resulted from my emotion so is not solely from a source

CSEe

22-01-2014, 11:24 AM

Hi maejin , you said " It is not the same CSE. There is suffering and there is happiness. Your daughter to you may be the same as the dirt under your shoe, but the dirt under your shoe does not suffer. The process of realization is what leads out of suffering, through the understanding of the three characteristics of nature (impermanence, suffering, non-self) and the cultivation of the 7 factors of enlightenment we go beyond suffering. " Un-quote
Suffering is a comparison to happiness , same as good verses bad , true verses false , right verses wrong ....is all in human knowledge ,. In my current understanding of Buddhism , we suffer because our emotion , we happy because of our emotion and both are from a same tree ..............you believe the dirt is different because you know the different , you attached to your knowledge .......but to me Buddhism is beyond knowledge , is realization ...so one have to awaken to aware Buddhism , not just to know and such realization will be different , beyond knowledge .

You said " Therefore to reach self realization we must help others and grow in love and compassion. That is why the Buddha taught. If all things were the same as dirt under your shoe then the Buddha would never have taught and there is no point in gaining enlightenment. but it is not like that.
Sentient beings i.e beings that can feel think and know are not dirt. They are important. Also it is because of your past good karma that you are able to live comfortably and discuss and debate on the internet, if you consider everything as dirt there is no motivation to improve or change or to help yourself or others which is the true basis of the teaching of the Buddha, that of progress and freedom." un-quote

Have you notice you mentioned so-so many desire , so many self created emotion in your words .........if you are use your Buddhism knowledge , yes you are right .....but perhaps Buddhism is self realization , is you realizing your existence , the cause of your existence but seem to me you are move in the circle of knowledge ...perhaps the more you desire , the more suffering or joy you will be and this will be longer journey into emptiness ...Buddhism is to me currently is realization on emotion not creating more emotion .......the more emotion there will be more suffering or joy ..perhaps Buddhism is realization on current self not to imagine the past or expecting the future ...my past is not now , my future is not now ...but I am now .......realization on now , the current condition , the current existence is the concept of Buddhism to my current understanding .

You said " Therefore in one sense we can say that all things are the same that pain and pleasure, happiness and suffering and rich and poor are the same (in theory it is correct) but in practice it is not correct because to gain enlightenment you have to practice the "four right efforts" - 1) To arouse and grow that which is good in us (thought, speech, action), 2) To maintain that which is good in us, 3) To eradicate that which is bad in us (thought, speech, action) 4) To make sure that which is bad does not arise again once it is eradicated.[/B]
So as long as you see everything as same CSE you will not progress. In theory it is ok to say everything is the same. But in practice everything is not the same.un-quote

Perhaps enlightenment is a condition not by desire , not by practice but perhaps is a condition freedom from emotion ...a condition closer to emptiness ...so perhaps by having desire " to be" enlightened , one will create more emotion and move further away , in a circle of more confusion.In my current understanding , as we awaken to Buddhism , as we progress all our emotion will reduced / decreased but seems to me from your writing , perhaps your practice is resulted from a desire , an emotion to do thing , creating more emotion ............seems to me this is human common culture and will lead to longer journey into emptiness ...I hope we could debate more

CSEe

22-01-2014, 11:44 AM

maejin

22-01-2014, 01:09 PM

Perhaps enlightenment is a condition not by desire , not by practice but perhaps is a condition freedom from emotion ...a condition closer to emptiness ...so perhaps by having desire " to be" enlightened , one will create more emotion and move further away , in a circle of more confusion.In my current understanding , as we awaken to Buddhism , as we progress all our emotion will reduced / decreased but seems to me from your writing , perhaps your practice is resulted from a desire , an emotion to do thing , creating more emotion ............seems to me this is human common culture and will lead to longer journey into emptiness ...I hope we could debate more

CSE you must read the actual teachings of the Buddha as they are given in the records. All desire is not bad. Desire for liberation is very important. This desire for liberation is what caused Gautama Buddha to escape from the palace and spend many years meditating working hard. Without desire for liberation you cannot achieve liberation.
Desire is like a boat CSE. When you need to cross the river you need to be on the boat, be attached to the boat. When you reach the other side you leave the boat. In the same way you need desire to practice and progress towards enlightenment but when you reach enlightenment you give up desire for enlightenment. You use the desire like a bridge or a boat but give it up when you have crossed, not before otherwise you cannot cross.

In the time of the Buddha they used the word Chanda for this good desire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanda_(Buddhism)

Also there is no "perhaps". The Buddha has clearly stated what enlightenment is and what non enlightenment its. Please read the upanisa sutta it is very important. Transcendental dependent arising. It tells you the process by which you stop creating formations of volition which is Karma. Only a person who has stopped creating new formations of volition is liberated. It is not about less emotion. Please read the teachings of Buddha that will clear up much of your understanding. If you just debate with your own understanding without learning and gaining knowledge of the teaching you will never understand.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html

It seems to me CSE that you have two problems. Please think about this carefully because I feel it is very important for your progress in Dharma.
1) You are not walking the MIDDLE path. You pick extreme views. You see everything is neither same nor different. It is in between. Depending on how you look at it it can be same or different. You say all desire is bad, some people say all desire is good. In reality some is good some is bad. So please avoid extreme views. Real truth is in the Middle.
2)Without the four foundations of mindfulness and meditation you CANNOT gain enlightenment. The Buddha has said this many many times. You CANNOT gain understanding just from debate. You have to meditate also. There are many things that can only be understood from experience in meditation. I think instead of just debating, maybe you should read the teachings of the Buddha and more importantly meditate a lot.

Mind's Eye

22-01-2014, 01:13 PM

Perhaps in Buddhism there is no right or wrong , no true or false , no good or bad so how could anyone is wrong in Buddhism ? Right or wrong , true or false , good or bad is only exist in human knowledge .........but Buddhism to me currently is beyond knowledge ..........

In reading the Buddhist writings and scriptures, it would appear that Buddhism is meant to alleviate people of suffering and guide one on the path of wisdom, love and enlightenment. And Buddha also spoke of things that were "true" or "false" and even "right" and "wrong" .. even if those things were our own thoughts, actions and beliefs.

If Buddhism is beyond knowledge, then why study it or follow its teachings? If it is beyond our grasp, then it is useless and can do nothing to help us or present us with actual truth. It would be like a man contemplating what is beyond the universe as we know it; he believes that maybe there is something out there that can help him, but he knows not what it is... It is beyond his knowledge and he may never know the answer! Therefore it is nothing but an airy, worthless belief and cannot touch or change his life in any meaningful way.

Are you sure Buddhism is offering you anything positive that you can grasp, use and apply to your life... If not, why are you on the Buddhist path?

maejin

22-01-2014, 01:27 PM

Perhaps is time for me to explain my understanding further .......in my current understanding , Buddhism is a natural process of all living or non-living journey back into own original condition of nothingness ............and for human , our existence is caused by emotion and as long as we still attached to emotion , we will always exist and this journey will be long ...............awaken to Buddhism , we will travel in less suffering , shorter journey back into emptiness ......

Many uses knowledge as basis of their judgement and indeed attachment on knowledge had created human culture .............realization on Buddhism is beyond knowledge and is something that impossible to teach but could only be learned .....I hope to debate more .

Your understanding is wrong I have put a link to transcendental dependent origination. But let me try and explain it here for you.

In the Upanisa Sutta the Buddha says

With ignorance as condition, the kamma formations; with kamma formations as condition consciousness; with consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition the sixfold sense base; with the sixfold sense base as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair arise. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering.

So the real problem is not emotion it is ignorance. Ignorance is a lack of understanding brought on by a lack of awareness of the nature of reality (impermanence, suffering and nonself) of everything. Ignorance is not lack of knowledge, but lack of understanding that all things are (impermanent, involve suffering and have no self) But this is experiential understanding through observation and meditation not just through thinking or knowing it theoretically..

And so for the average person who is suffering we have the MUNDANE ORDER or series

But when you meditate and work towards enlightenment you change the order at the point of suffering. Instead of ignorance coming after suffering you have faith (which is not blind belief it is patience to wait and see what the truth is without accepting or rejecting till proof comes) and the new series called TRANSCENDENTAL ORDER which leads to liberation.

Transcendental Order

Knowledge of destruction of the cankers the final stage, is the stage where your impurities in the mind are removed through wisdom. Please understand this process takes place again and again in cycles removing the "heavier" worse things in a person first before the "lighter" things. The person gets more and more virtuous and happy until he completes the process for all impurities i.e reaches last stage for ALL impurities. That is enlightenment. That is liberation.

realization on Buddhism is beyond knowledge and is something that impossible to teach but could only be learned .....I hope to debate more .

It can be learned only through meditation CSE. I will debate with you more but you may not understand till you meditate. Because true realization comes from experience of reality in meditation. It is beyond words and language and debate.

CSEe

22-01-2014, 02:00 PM

CSE you must read the actual teachings of the Buddha as they are given in the records. All desire is not bad. Desire for liberation is very important. This desire for liberation is what caused Gautama Buddha to escape from the palace and spend many years meditating working hard. Without desire for liberation you cannot achieve liberation.
Desire is like a boat CSE. When you need to cross the river you need to be on the boat, be attached to the boat. When you reach the other side you leave the boat. In the same way you need desire to practice and progress towards enlightenment but when you reach enlightenment you give up desire for enlightenment. You use the desire like a bridge or a boat but give it up when you have crossed, not before otherwise you cannot cross.

Perhaps desire is yourself , is the cause of your existence , is bringing you places that you wish to go yes it is a boat ......but perhaps you are the boat , youself is the desire ........realizing yourself is Buddhism and Buddhism is a process that you will realize that you are the boat and enlightenment is never a destination that you need to go but is YOU .........awaken to Buddhism is self realization leading to liberation of the self back into nothingness ......if you uses mirror , you will see yourself but if you trying to search for that guy , you will never find as that guy is you ...so to me , enlightenment is a condition not from any practice but is a condition almost freedom from any emotion

In the time of the Buddha they used the word Chanda for this good desire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanda_(Buddhism)
It quotes from the Abhidhammattha sangaha
Chanda here means desire to act (kattu-kamata), that is to perform an action or achieve some result. This kind of desire must be distinguished from desire in the reprehensible sense, that is, from lobha, greed and raga, lust. Whereas the latter terms are invariably unwholesome, chanda is an ethically variable factor which, when conjoined with wholesome concomitants, can function as the virtuous desire to achieve a worthy goal. The characteristic of chanda is desire to act, its function is searching for an object, its manifestation is need for an object and that same object is its proximate cause. It should be regarding as the stretching forth of the mind's hand towards the object.
Also there is no "perhaps". The Buddha has clearly stated what enlightenment is and what non enlightenment its. Please read the upanisa sutta it is very important. Transcendental dependent arising. It tells you the process by which you stop creating formations of volition which is Karma. Only a person who has stopped creating new formations of volition is liberated. It is not about less emotion. Please read the teachings of Buddha that will clear up much of your understanding. If you just debate with your own understanding without learning and gaining knowledge of the teaching you will never understand.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html

Thanks for this knowledge but I hope to debate with you , what is your say ?

It seems to me CSE that you have two problems. Please think about this carefully because I feel it is very important for your progress in Dharma.
1) You are not walking the MIDDLE path. You pick extreme views. You see everything is neither same nor different. It is in between. Depending on how you look at it it can be same or different. You say all desire is bad, some people say all desire is good. In reality some is good some is bad. So please avoid extreme views. Real truth is in the Middle.
2)Without the four foundations of mindfulness and meditation you CANNOT gain enlightenment. The Buddha has said this many many times. You CANNOT gain understanding just from debate. You have to meditate also. There are many things that can only be understood from experience in meditation. I think instead of just debating, maybe you should read the teachings of the Buddha and more importantly meditate a lot.

Sorry in advance ,I have many problems not just two .......and perhaps that problem is CSEe.....dear sir , to me you are glued to your knowledge .....I hope you could live your life and discuss with me on your understanding , not something that we could both find on internet .......

CSEe

22-01-2014, 02:10 PM

In reading the Buddhist writings and scriptures, it would appear that Buddhism is meant to alleviate people of suffering and guide one on the path of wisdom, love and enlightenment. And Buddha also spoke of things that were "true" or "false" and even "right" and "wrong" .. even if those things were our own thoughts, actions and beliefs.

Sorry in advance , if one limit what they learned as what they have learned then Buddhism will be something we know and will be something we already know .......Siddharta's words to me is just a great source of learning , same as any countless sources......so lets debate what is right or wrong shall we ?
In our common knowledge / culture , Osama is bad and his action is wrong but in my current understanding of Buddhism , he is same as Dalai Lama .....as we could learned from his action same as the words of Dalai Lama ......

If Buddhism is beyond knowledge, then why study it or follow its teachings? If it is beyond our grasp, then it is useless and can do nothing to help us or present us with actual truth. It would be like a man contemplating what is beyond the universe as we know it; he believes that maybe there is something out there that can help him, but he knows not what it is... It is beyond his knowledge and he may never know the answer! Therefore it is nothing but an airy, worthless belief and cannot touch or change his life in any meaningful way.

Are you sure Buddhism is offering you anything positive that you can grasp, use and apply to your life... If not, why are you on the Buddhist path?

Awaken to Buddhism perhaps one will realized nothing is owned nor knowledge or material ...so knowledge is never something for you to keep but perhaps as a factor to progress into greater realization .....is there anything not Buddhist ? Is there anything not in Buddhist path ? Lets debate on this for my own learning lesson

CSEe

22-01-2014, 02:17 PM

Your understanding is wrong I have put a link to transcendental dependent origination. But let me try and explain it here for you.

In the Upanisa Sutta the Buddha says

With ignorance as condition, the kamma formations; with kamma formations as condition consciousness; with consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition the sixfold sense base; with the sixfold sense base as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair arise. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering.

So the real problem is not emotion it is ignorance. Ignorance is a lack of understanding brought on by a lack of awareness of the nature of reality (impermanence, suffering and nonself) of everything. Ignorance is not lack of knowledge, but lack of understanding that all things are (impermanent, involve suffering and have no self) But this is experiential understanding through observation and meditation not just through thinking or knowing it theoretically..

And so for the average person who is suffering we have the MUNDANE ORDER or series

But when you meditate and work towards enlightenment you change the order at the point of suffering. Instead of ignorance coming after suffering you have faith (which is not blind belief it is patience to wait and see what the truth is without accepting or rejecting till proof comes) and the new series called TRANSCENDENTAL ORDER which leads to liberation.

Transcendental Order

Knowledge of destruction of the cankers the final stage, is the stage where your impurities in the mind are removed through wisdom. Please understand this process takes place again and again in cycles removing the "heavier" worse things in a person first before the "lighter" things. The person gets more and more virtuous and happy until he completes the process for all impurities i.e reaches last stage for ALL impurities. That is enlightenment. That is liberation.

It can be learned only through meditation CSE. I will debate with you more but you may not understand till you meditate. Because true realization comes from experience of reality in meditation. It is beyond words and language and debate.

Thanks for your knowledge my friend , you are still using what you know from internet / book as the basis of discussion ...what about your realization ? Where are you ? Please use simple English without any terminology of Buddhism as I do not understand it .............
Perhaps if one have intention to meditate , created emotion to meditate perhaps that is creation of more self .........and that perhaps is longer journey

livingkarma

22-01-2014, 02:32 PM

Since a few years , I am trying to learn from any person who claimed to be a teacher or master of Buddhism by debate and trying to explore the reason that makes them teach other.......but until now , I still could not find any .

Most of them seems not interested to discuss or debate but eager to teach me ....but when when I invited them for a debate , some even get angry .

Can anyone tell me why ?
I hope to debate with any master here or email me at [email protected]

Thks
CSEe

Wikipedia ...
Debate is contention in argument ; dispute, controversy ; discussion ...

Simply reading the definition for the word "debate" denotes agressiveness, egotism-ego boosting, condescension, manipulation as well as a lack of a well formed/developed understanding of "judgement" & its purpose ...
People who have a basic understanding of "judgement" believe it is all bad &/or wrong mostly for the sake of winning an arguement ...
It is not new to the Sprititual Forums; it's merely an elementary debate tactic ...
It's not necessary to meet a person face to face to understand/identify their true intentions, however, validity is provided when reading their body language ...

The purpose for teaching is to provide the student w/knowledge ...
The student is to determine (test-challenge) its presence, quality, or truth by expanding it to a greater level of understanding ...
Any question asked can be answered through their teachings & literature as well as one's own daily living ...
Seek & you shall find ...

It is our job to find our own truth ...
It is not our job to debate w/a person to convince them that their truth is right or wrong or flawed nor use anyone to stroke our ego ...
When one can discipline their self to rise above common human errors/issues their "truth" will resonate spiritually ...
Otherwise, their true self is simply as a human being w/out the benefit of direction or wisdom ...

Debate is better left in the political arena ...

God-Like

22-01-2014, 02:57 PM

Hi CSEe .

What is it that you want to discuss with a master exactly?

x daz x

tttin

22-01-2014, 03:05 PM

Thanks CSEe,

Since you comfirm murderer and normal person are same, please let me know your answers:

After ten years from now, current murderer and he in future are same? that murderer (future) and that normal person (future) are same?

Do you believe rebirth/reincarnation in buddhism?
Do you believe "Cause Condition Affect" law in buddhism?

How do you believe that debate about buddhism in this forum can reduce your emotions for back to nothingness/emptiness?

Mind's Eye

22-01-2014, 06:09 PM

dear sir , to me you are glued to your knowledge

Could not the same thing be said about you? You cling to your idea that Buddhism is beyond knowledge, you make that statement over and over again. You counter everything anyone says by saying that they are attached to their knowledge and learning. Then you ask them to debate with you and see what you have learned from, "YOUR EXPERIENCES."

So, are you not clinging to and glued to these beliefs and expressions you use so often? To admit that you are not would be incorrect... Go back and read all of your posts on Buddhism and see how many times you say these things over and over again in many different threads.

So if you give everyone the same answers over and over again, no matter what they say to you... does this not show that you are glued to your own opinion? Thus doing the very thing you say everyone else is doing?

CSEe

22-01-2014, 09:44 PM

Wikipedia ...
Debate is contention in argument ; dispute, controversy ; discussion ...

Simply reading the definition for the word "debate" denotes agressiveness, egotism-ego boosting, condescension, manipulation as well as a lack of a well formed/developed understanding of "judgement" & its purpose ...
People who have a basic understanding of "judgement" believe it is all bad &/or wrong mostly for the sake of winning an arguement ...
It is not new to the Sprititual Forums; it's merely an elementary debate tactic ...
It's not necessary to meet a person face to face to understand/identify their true intentions, however, validity is provided when reading their body language ...

The purpose for teaching is to provide the student w/knowledge ...
The student is to determine (test-challenge) its presence, quality, or truth by expanding it to a greater level of understanding ...
Any question asked can be answered through their teachings & literature as well as one's own daily living ...
Seek & you shall find ...

It is our job to find our own truth ...
It is not our job to debate w/a person to convince them that their truth is right or wrong or flawed nor use anyone to stroke our ego ...
When one can discipline their self to rise above common human errors/issues their "truth" will resonate spiritually ...
Otherwise, their true self is simply as a human being w/out the benefit of direction or wisdom ...

Debate is better left in the political arena ...

Perhaps debate is not a polite word but is the only word that I think very close to my understanding , whenever I use "discuss" many teacher just eager to get me listen to them but never interested to sincerely share views ...learning Buddhism . My desire is to learn and debate pushes me into areas that I never been , explore without limitation and I am always open for change that is the reason I always mention " in my current understanding "...I hope you understand me ......I am not here to show off or defend my view , I am just here to learn ....and as I approaching my death I hope it would be a nice journey and I hope to share with my daughter so that she will have a less suffering journey of life

CSEe

22-01-2014, 09:53 PM

Hi CSEe .

What is it that you want to discuss with a master exactly?

x daz x

You see , I really hope to find out what is their reason that makes them teach others Buddhism. Many teacher half way debate with me claiming that they never teach but yet they have talks , website claiming themselves as teacher etc ...........I really hope to explore their reason as I currently understand that Buddhism is impossible to be taught even for Siddharta himself ....I hope to challenge my view by debating with others

CSEe

22-01-2014, 10:07 PM

Thanks CSEe,

Since you comfirm murderer and normal person are same, please let me know your answers:
To me in Buddhism , nothing can be sure or confirm as there is no right or wrong , no true or false .......not like knowledge . A murderer kills because his action is resulted from his emotion , same as the normal people having desire for anything .........in knowledge by human current culture the murderer is wrong / bad and his action is false , well that is so-so true ...but Buddhism is beyond knowledge .........we cannot limit Buddhism to what we know , if we accept Buddhism is a form of knowledge , Buddhism will be something we know and going to be something we already known .
In Buddhism , you are alone and all action is a great source for you to discover your emotion ...so you can learn from a murderer action same way as yoiu learn from Dalai Lama words ......

After ten years from now, current murderer and he in future are same? that murderer (future) and that normal person (future) are same?
In Buddhism , is all about you , your journey why you choose to live in others life ? The murderer is teaching you now with his action and if you see him tens year from now , regardless what he will do still that is a great source for you to learn .....
Do you believe rebirth/reincarnation in buddhism?
Do you believe "Cause Condition Affect" law in buddhism?

How do you believe that debate about buddhism in this forum can reduce your emotions for back to nothingness/emptiness?

In my current understanding of Buddhism , beliefs / faith will confused us and Buddhism is about exploration , discovery and realization on emotion journey into greater realization leading to emptiness not to gain more knowledge and keep ..........so I just learn , no commited to believe anything......

CSEe

22-01-2014, 10:11 PM

Could not the same thing be said about you? You cling to your idea that Buddhism is beyond knowledge, you make that statement over and over again. You counter everything anyone says by saying that they are attached to their knowledge and learning. Then you ask them to debate with you and see what you have learned from, "YOUR EXPERIENCES."

So, are you not clinging to and glued to these beliefs and expressions you use so often? To admit that you are not would be incorrect... Go back and read all of your posts on Buddhism and see how many times you say these things over and over again in many different threads.

So if you give everyone the same answers over and over again, no matter what they say to you... does this not show that you are glued to your own opinion? Thus doing the very thing you say everyone else is doing?

No ........have you notice I always say in my current understanding , the reason is I realize that Buddhism is a process that never stopped , it change constantly , every seconds we change regardless whether we wish to change or not ......is always human desire to keep the same , I have realization beyond that understanding ...sorry sir , I am not.............it may seems my words is same but is my realization that it would be different as I am always in bUDDHISM

tttin

23-01-2014, 01:53 AM

CSEe

23-01-2014, 02:15 AM

Thanks CSEe,

To me, your daughter can debate and can explore ,discover and realize on emotion journey into greater realization leading to emptiness but the dirt cannot. Could you let me know what thing in her self can debate and what thing in her self are same with the dirt?

In my current understanding , Buddhism is beyond knowledge so if in knowledge yes you are right as human can talk , can think , can act but non-living like the dirt cannot ......so if you always attached to your knowledge , you will always know it and after years of these knowledge you gain a faith and you has become the knowledge itself .......that is common human culture .

Buddhism to me is more than just mere knowledge , knowledge is just a tiny part in Buddhism .........in my current understanding of Buddhism , we do not use our knowledge to judge , to compare or to create beliefs ..........as Buddhism is not to gain knowledge or create emotion to keep but is a realization process .......so in Buddhism , I am always alone in my journey into emptiness so regardless human or dirt , both is a great learning source for me to discover my emotion .......both is same and equal great source ........as I do not limit human or the dirt in my knowledge but accept it as a being same as me ....they are same as me in their own journey into emptiness.......as for now , I am still very far from accepting it , still full of pollutants as I still have special love for my daughter , still love money , sex , food etc that is the reason I am here to learn more .........

Do you means our actions in future are chosen and we cannot change?

No , you are the action regardless now or " the future" as in Buddhism the past is now , the future is also now .....

You said that beliefs / faith will confused us and just learn , no commited to believe anything......So where will you reach if debating in this forum about Buddhism in this forum make you get more emotions?

Buddhism is a process and the destination is never a choice , so if you choose your destination , you will creates emotion and you will in your own circle of emotion ...........Buddhism is a realization process so as we progress , our emotion like desire , love , anger , ego , fear , etc will be reduced / decreased not increased ..........so by learning , discovering , experiencing more , my emotion will be less not more ....

tttin

23-01-2014, 07:14 AM

CSEe

23-01-2014, 07:34 AM

Thanks for sharing your experience CSEe,

So, do you mean that informations when debating will go through your mind and you just "realize" those informations. And the more informations you "realize", the more realization progress you get and you would reduce your emotions?

Perhaps is not really that easy ..........when we debate on a topic , I will give my reason on my understanding same as you so as we debate somehow I will learn ........so what I had learned during our debate is not a result of my desire to learn from you but rather what we have debated will put myself , my emotion in a condition that different from before ..........this process is Buddhism . So in my current understanding , Buddhism is the only process of all regardless living or not living ...........so as we debate , regardless what is our topic , we will be in a different condition and by awaken to Buddhism , we will progress constantly into many-many condition each second in a journey call life .........

So as we progress , we will discover , experience , learn more on our emotions and awaken to Buddhism concept our attachment on emotions will be decreased ......and the burden on our back ( the emotions )which we carry will be reduced and we will be more " happy" , more " easy" , more " relex"......and continue such journey .........

CSEe

23-01-2014, 08:11 AM

Dear tttin, you said I quote "It seems that you want to "realize" the "moon" by your way instead of the way Gautama Buddha's finger point to." Un-quote

No , realization is not out of desire so is not I "want to realize" but realization is a reflection of emotion not result of an emotion ........

Realization is not something we plan to do , is not a goal or something out of our expectation or something we seek to find , or something as a result of our practice or faith ..........

So how to " realize" the moon if we already know what is the moon ? Realization is not resulted from knowledge but is a reflection on a condition ....

You see , when ever a robber rob a bank , they run away , why ? Because they know that is wrong and they will get caught by police ...........so knowledge is just a tiny part of realization .........if the robber realized his action , he will never do it ................

God-Like

23-01-2014, 08:24 AM

You see , I really hope to find out what is their reason that makes them teach others Buddhism. Many teacher half way debate with me claiming that they never teach but yet they have talks , website claiming themselves as teacher etc ...........I really hope to explore their reason as I currently understand that Buddhism is impossible to be taught even for Siddharta himself ....I hope to challenge my view by debating with others

Hi CSEe

Ok thanks for explaining, I will use the name of 'Master' lightly here but I would say if one is a Master then one has minimal ego . In this respect the teaching will be selfless in such a way where the objective is to help others find their way .

One can perhaps debate what constitutes being a Master, I don't see a Master quoting how things are religiously out from a book and with a firm hand saying that's how it is .. I suspect that happens but I have heard how a Master would also say, don't read, nor take my word for anything find it out for yourself ..

You may of gathered some of my thoughts on the forums of late are regarding having 'no choice' I suggest that if a Master has transcended their individual will, then Teaching would come from the heart of experience and through a 'will' that is beyond comprehension .

x daz x

tttin

23-01-2014, 08:57 AM

Thanks CSEe,

Please let me know your answers:

When debating, how do you control all emotions in your mind?

When debating, what signal you make sure that your emotions will reduce and new emotion will not appear in your mind?

For each progress in your mind when debating, what signal did you realize that you awaken a little more?

Thanks again for explaining "realize" word!

CSEe

23-01-2014, 11:40 AM

Hi CSEe

Ok thanks for explaining, I will use the name of 'Master' lightly here but I would say if one is a Master then one has minimal ego . In this respect the teaching will be selfless in such a way where the objective is to help others find their way .

Perhaps my question is why a "master" have objective to help others ? what reason for him to believe that others in need to find their path and put him in a condition to help ? As human , base on human culture yes we do know what others need ...a hungry person need food , a child need care , a homeless need shelter .......but in my current understanding of Buddhism .....how could we know what others need to change their journey ? How do we know our path is better or right and give us the reason to teach them ? That is why I hope a master could tell me

One can perhaps debate what constitutes being a Master, I don't see a Master quoting how things are religiously out from a book and with a firm hand saying that's how it is .. I suspect that happens but I have heard how a Master would also say, don't read, nor take my word for anything find it out for yourself ..
You may of gathered some of my thoughts on the forums of late are regarding having 'no choice' I suggest that if a Master has transcended their individual will, then Teaching would come from the heart of experience and through a 'will' that is beyond comprehension .

x daz x
In my current understanding of Buddhism , anyone or anything is my "master" that provide great source of learning ...as Buddhism to me is all about learning from own self or others ...but I could not understand why a person could claim himself as master and teach others .......

CSEe

23-01-2014, 11:54 AM

Thanks CSEe,

Please let me know your answers:

When debating, how do you control all emotions in your mind?
If in human culture yes there are many we need to be in control ...but awaken to Buddhism concept , is never to control the mind or to guide / shape the mind...but rather awaken to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept , accept to further aware ...and the mind is the reflection of emotion .......not the creation of emotion .....that is Buddhism in my current understanding .

When debating, what signal you make sure that your emotions will reduce and new emotion will not appear in your mind?

Again , Buddhism to me currently is not to create desire to reduce the emotion because when we creates desire to do something , that will creates more emotions , more pollutants , more self ...so Buddhism is a NATURAL process not by practice or choice ...but awaken to Buddhism will lead us to less suffering journey......in short , just awaken and as we progress into this path , we will realize our emotions , the cause of our existence and the process that we in....into emptiness .....

For each progress in your mind when debating, what signal did you realize that you awaken a little more?

Thanks again for explaining "realize" word!

Ok , realize is something we in awaken condition and accepting ourselves .......for example , a smoker knows that smoking is bad for health but why they still smoke ? Perhaps one day they seriously sick then they will realize that and stop smoking ,............so realization is a condition that we see thing clear , awaken.............

God-Like

23-01-2014, 12:20 PM

In my current understanding of Buddhism , anyone or anything is my "master" that provide great source of learning ...as Buddhism to me is all about learning from own self or others ...but I could not understand why a person could claim himself as master and teach others .......

I don't suppose that there are many masters that proclaim to be Masters .. It's normally how others perceive them and hence name them ..

I see the qualities of a Master within my mother but she will simply say I am no different from her ..

In a way saying what she say's is a teaching within it's self but it only teaches someone that notices any relevance within such words ...

x daz x

CSEe

23-01-2014, 12:24 PM

I don't suppose that there are many masters that proclaim to be Masters .. It's normally how others perceive them and hence name them ..

I see the qualities of a Master within my mother but she will simply say I am no different from her ..

In a way saying what she say's is a teaching within it's self but it only teaches someone that notices any relevance within such words ...

x daz x

From my knowledge perhaps there are thousands of monk "teaching" Buddhism in our current world ..........and even accepted others as student or pupil .........and I just hope to find out their reasons

tttin

23-01-2014, 12:39 PM

CSEe

23-01-2014, 02:55 PM

Thanks CSEe,

If there is a thing, it exists itself at anytime
If there is nothing, everything are nothing
Please imagine the shadow of the moon under water in your mind.

Does the moon exist?
Is the moon nothing? perhaps is human culture searching for answer to fulfill desire to know.....in Buddhism as what i currently understand is not to discover whether the moon exist or not but is to learn , to discover own emotion from the moon or the shadow as in Buddhism , all is same and equal......

BlueSky

23-01-2014, 05:29 PM

CSEe

23-01-2014, 10:09 PM

Why you ask .....simply put....the simplicity of the truth cannot be conveyed. Even the statement itself. The truth finds you. It is not learned or gained or understood. Not by debating or fasting or any other means.

Because I still have desire , fear , ego , love , greed , curious .....myself , that is why I ask .........as human in human culture I ask , I search is to know ...in my current understanding on Buddhism , I ask , I search not only to know , not only to understand , or to experience or to discover but perhaps what I found will be a factor of my realization ........my realization of myself , my emotion .........

What is the truth ? To me , in Buddhism as what I currently understand ,there never is truth or false , right or wrong.........perhaps the only happening in life or beyond life is only the natural process leading to the original condition of nothingness........this process is Buddhism .So to me the only one truth is Buddhism........

Yes , Buddhism is never merely about learning certainly never about gaining , but to me awaken to learn , exploring , searching , experiencing , discovering is a tiny part of Buddhism leading to self realization ..........

Realization on self , awaken to understand Buddhism is never something that " will find " us ...because is never something outside us but is us ......Nothingness - The Buddha is the basis of all living or non-living . Is always is us , is always you , is always the pen on the table , the tree outside your window ........and all of us in our own journey , our own choice travelling back into nothingness . This process into nothingness is Buddhism and is never is a choice , but is natural .........as human we have a choice to choose our path but regardless our path , still all is in this process ....nothing could escape or avoid it ........only by awaken to realize / accept this realization , we can free our self from confusion , from suffering .........thats my current understanding of Buddhism , I hope to debate more for my own understanding.

BlueSky

23-01-2014, 11:38 PM

Because I still have desire , fear , ego , love , greed , curious .....myself , that is why I ask .........as human in human culture I ask , I search is to know ...in my current understanding on Buddhism , I ask , I search not only to know , not only to understand , or to experience or to discover but perhaps what I found will be a factor of my realization ........my realization of myself , my emotion .........

What is the truth ? To me , in Buddhism as what I currently understand ,there never is truth or false , right or wrong.........perhaps the only happening in life or beyond life is only the natural process leading to the original condition of nothingness........this process is Buddhism .So to me the only one truth is Buddhism........

Yes , Buddhism is never merely about learning certainly never about gaining , but to me awaken to learn , exploring , searching , experiencing , discovering is a tiny part of Buddhism leading to self realization ..........

Realization on self , awaken to understand Buddhism is never something that " will find " us ...because is never something outside us but is us ......Nothingness - The Buddha is the basis of all living or non-living . Is always is us , is always you , is always the pen on the table , the tree outside your window ........and all of us in our own journey , our own choice travelling back into nothingness . This process into nothingness is Buddhism and is never is a choice , but is natural .........as human we have a choice to choose our path but regardless our path , still all is in this process ....nothing could escape or avoid it ........only by awaken to realize / accept this realization , we can free our self from confusion , from suffering .........thats my current understanding of Buddhism , I hope to debate more for my own understanding.

The simplicity of the truth cannot be conveyed

CSEe

23-01-2014, 11:58 PM

The simplicity of the truth cannot be conveyed

If we go to a stadium to watch live football match , perhaps the excitement is hard to conveyed to the one stay at home watching it on TV ....but perhaps if both sit down , have a coffee and chat , talk perhaps both could learned from each experiences ...........yes to me Buddhism is beyond understanding or knowledge .....is realization and is not something we know or something we seek to know , even is not something we will know but by discussion , debate , sharing words .......that is perhaps one of a trillions way to learn , to discover , even to experience......................we are human and we are in internet perhaps by writing in this forum is the only way possible ..........what else we can do in here ?.............
So lets try and share .....................

BlueSky

24-01-2014, 12:16 AM

If we go to a stadium to watch live football match , perhaps the excitement is hard to conveyed to the one stay at home watching it on TV ....but perhaps if both sit down , have a coffee and chat , talk perhaps both could learned from each experiences ...........yes to me Buddhism is beyond understanding or knowledge .....is realization and is not something we know or something we seek to know , even is not something we will know but by discussion , debate , sharing words .......that is perhaps one of a trillions way to learn , to discover , even to experience......................we are human and we are in internet perhaps by writing in this forum is the only way possible ..........what else we can do in here ?.............
So lets try and share .....................
Anyone can see what they are. It's closer than anything else. Point your finger at what others see as your face. Look at what is looking. You are that awareness and you have no face. You are the space, the capacity for the finger pointing to be. You are that unboundaried, unlimited, bottomless aware space. The finger arise within you, is not separate from you.

tttin

24-01-2014, 02:19 AM

Thanks CSEe,

perhaps is human culture searching for answer to fulfill desire to know.....in Buddhism as what i currently understand is not to discover whether the moon exist or not but is to learn , to discover own emotion from the moon or the shadow as in Buddhism , all is same and equal......

My comment was read by you and went through your mind. With your experience in Buddhism, you realized that my comment appeared to fullfill desire to know. At this point of time, are you sure your realization about my comment is true? Why not another thing instead of fullfiiling desire to know?

You said that everything are same and equal, our selfs from now are also same and equal to our selfs after ten years. So your process of awakening, awaring, realizing and accepting is also same and equal your process of awakening, awaring, realizing and accepting after ten years. Is there a difference in your experience in Buddhism?

CSEe

24-01-2014, 01:29 PM

Anyone can see what they are. It's closer than anything else. Point your finger at what others see as your face. Look at what is looking. You are that awareness and you have no face. You are the space, the capacity for the finger pointing to be. You are that unboundaried, unlimited, bottomless aware space. The finger arise within you, is not separate from you.
in my current understanding of Buddhism,me same as you same as any living or non living is nothingness perhaps is as what you described but i cant find any reason now to agree with you about the finger.to me the finger is never within me or related to me but it is same as me......both of us are in own process into emptiness~Buddhism........... is human knowledge that confused us that the finger is ours......is human common desire to own things.....

BlueSky

24-01-2014, 01:42 PM

in my current understanding of Buddhism,me same as you same as any living or non living is nothingness perhaps is as what you described but i cant find any reason now to agree with you about the finger.to me the finger is never within me or related to me but it is same as me......both of us are in own process into emptiness~Buddhism........... is human knowledge that confused us that the finger is ours......is human common desire to own things.....
Yes I also see that the finger is the same but there is no knowing of what that sameness is. It is the nature of this sameness to be beyond understanding. What did you see looking?

CSEe

24-01-2014, 01:49 PM

Thanks CSEe,

My comment was read by you and went through your mind. With your experience in Buddhism, you realized that my comment appeared to fullfill desire to know. At this point of time, are you sure your realization about my comment is true? Why not another thing instead of fullfiiling desire to know?no, is never my interest whether your comment is to fulfill your desire of otherwise..... because to me , Buddhism is beyond human culture, so i just debate with your words never create any emotion to judge you or to live in your life

You said that everything are same and equal, our selfs from now are also same and equal to our selfs after ten years. So your process of awakening, awaring, realizing and accepting is also same and equal your process of awakening, awaring, realizing and accepting after ten years. Is there a difference in your experience in Buddhism?if u carefully read my reply #41 you can understand my understanding.......in my current understanding of Buddhism, is all about awakened to now.....not to trap in the past or imagine the future........each moment in our journey kNown as life ,we are in different condition ....but each condition we are same as any living or non living because both of us are in our own journey into emptiness.........

CSEe

24-01-2014, 01:58 PM

Yes I also see that the finger is the same but there is no knowing of what that sameness is. It is the nature of this sameness to be beyond understanding. What did you see looking?in my current understanding of Buddhism, sameness is not about knowledge to know the same as no difference....... sameness is resulted from realization freedom of knowledge, freedom of ego , freedom of acceptance of knowledge......... such realization will put you in a acceptance that you are as small as a dirt , as huge as the universe.........

CSEe

24-01-2014, 02:05 PM

BlueSky

24-01-2014, 02:06 PM

in my current understanding of Buddhism, sameness is not about knowledge to know the same as no difference....... sameness is resulted from realization freedom of knowledge, freedom of ego , freedom of acceptance of knowledge......... such realization will put you in a acceptance that you are as small as a dirt , as huge as the universe.........
I agree. So what did you see looking at the finger?

CSEe

24-01-2014, 02:11 PM

I agree. So what did you see looking at the finger?
not ME, but MYSELF...that is all my emotion, my desire, my ego , my love , my feeling ,....etc

BlueSky

24-01-2014, 02:22 PM

not ME, but MYSELF...that is all my emotion, my desire, my ego , my love , my feeling ,....etc
That might be what you felt. Try again and just look at what is looking. It is the emptiness you speak of. Look inward. Seeing your emotions and desires is the same as looking at the finger. It arises in you. See what is looking.

CSEe

24-01-2014, 02:35 PM

That might be what you felt. Try again and just look at what is looking. It is the emptiness you speak of. Look inward. Seeing your emotions and desires is the same as looking at the finger. It arises in you. See what is looking.perhaps that is not from what i feel but is just my current understanding on Buddhism...... and it is part of the process..... perhaps emptiness is not something that we know or something resulted from what we know or something we will know,perhaps emptiness is a condition freedom from emotion......and to me is not something we could imagine or even described because we is not in that condition.....But if ever we ib such condition we will nevee have any emotion to described............

BlueSky

24-01-2014, 02:41 PM

perhaps that is not from what i feel but is just my current understanding on Buddhism...... and it is part of the process..... perhaps emptiness is not something that we know or something resulted from what we know or something we will know,perhaps emptiness is a condition freedom from emotion......and to me is not something we could imagine or even described because we is not in that condition.....But if ever we ib such condition we will nevee have any emotion to described............

Can you drop your current understandings and look? I am reminded of a saying by Hakuin....."they are like a man who, standing in the water, complains of thirst"

CSEe

24-01-2014, 04:16 PM

Can you drop your current understandings and look? I am reminded of a saying by Hakuin....."they are like a man who, standing in the water, complains of thirst"

If you are using human culture , human lifestyles as basis , it may seems I am ego , very much defend my view ............but as for me , Buddhism is about exploration , experiencing , understanding leading to realization on own emotions so if you could try to understand these words ...it is a process that is constantly changing , constantly progressing , never stay in any level of awareness .....so by understanding this concept , my current understanding is never stay , is always subject to change ...........so in this regards I do not need to creates emotion to drop it as it never stay ......

Buddhism is just like an open door with no wall in it ......is always free for realization but without any faith or beliefs ............as the more we realized , the less our emotion will be so as we progress ...our emotion , our desire , our love etc will be free , will be reduced ....leading into emptiness back into nothingness ......
So emptiness is a condition free of emotion .........nothingness is Buddha .....is nothingness not comparison to somethingness but is just nothingness as the original condition of all living or non-living .

BlueSky

24-01-2014, 05:27 PM

If you are using human culture , human lifestyles as basis , it may seems I am ego , very much defend my view ............but as for me , Buddhism is about exploration , experiencing , understanding leading to realization on own emotions so if you could try to understand these words ...it is a process that is constantly changing , constantly progressing , never stay in any level of awareness .....so by understanding this concept , my current understanding is never stay , is always subject to change ...........so in this regards I do not need to creates emotion to drop it as it never stay ......

Buddhism is just like an open door with no wall in it ......is always free for realization but without any faith or beliefs ............as the more we realized , the less our emotion will be so as we progress ...our emotion , our desire , our love etc will be free , will be reduced ....leading into emptiness back into nothingness ......
So emptiness is a condition free of emotion .........nothingness is Buddha .....is nothingness not comparison to somethingness but is just nothingness as the original condition of all living or non-living .
This is a pathless path. Let go of your understandings of a process, of emptiness, and simply look at what is looking. You have to see this for yourself because it cannot be conveyed. Even if for only a second, try and let go of your understandings and simply observe what is observing. That's all I can say, I wish you well. It's closer than your very breath.

CSEe

24-01-2014, 10:11 PM

This is a pathless path. Let go of your understandings of a process, of emptiness, and simply look at what is looking. You have to see this for yourself because it cannot be conveyed. Even if for only a second, try and let go of your understandings and simply observe what is observing. That's all I can say, I wish you well. It's closer than your very breath.

Dear Capacity , my current realization is that I am still full of pollutants , still full of emotions known as love , hate , desire , ego , fear etc but one thing I am aware that in regards to Buddhism concept .....I never holds , I am always positive for change .........and that is the reason I am here ...to challenge my understanding by exploring others ..........but perhaps my approach seems makes others mis-understood my intention .....

Dear Capacity , how could I let go if I never holds ? Buddhism to my current understanding is myself ........is not close to my breath but is the reason for my breath .....is all happening to me , in me , around me and nothing is not in Buddhism ..........is everything and anything ......this may described as "pathless" as general view but each living or non-living is in own path ...regardless what is their path .........no one could ever escape until nothingness . Thats just my current understanding , never a faith or beliefs ..is never something I hold on to or something I choose to believe ...is just my current condition ...I really hope you could stay and debate as I am learning from you

BlueSky

25-01-2014, 02:53 AM

Dear Capacity , my current realization is that I am still full of pollutants , still full of emotions known as love , hate , desire , ego , fear etc but one thing I am aware that in regards to Buddhism concept .....I never holds , I am always positive for change .........and that is the reason I am here ...to challenge my understanding by exploring others ..........but perhaps my approach seems makes others mis-understood my intention .....

Dear Capacity , how could I let go if I never holds ? Buddhism to my current understanding is myself ........is not close to my breath but is the reason for my breath .....is all happening to me , in me , around me and nothing is not in Buddhism ..........is everything and anything ......this may described as "pathless" as general view but each living or non-living is in own path ...regardless what is their path .........no one could ever escape until nothingness . Thats just my current understanding , never a faith or beliefs ..is never something I hold on to or something I choose to believe ...is just my current condition ...I really hope you could stay and debate as I am learning from you
I understand when you say that is your current condition. One thing that I have seen is that which we are seeking is seeking us. I respect your current condition as perfect in the space it is within. There is really nothing else I can say. In fact there is not much any of else can say for another. These dialogs always seem to be for me in the end and for that I am grateful.
Blessings my friend

CSEe

25-01-2014, 06:36 AM

I understand when you say that is your current condition. One thing that I have seen is that which we are seeking is seeking us. I respect your current condition as perfect in the space it is within. There is really nothing else I can say. In fact there is not much any of else can say for another. These dialogs always seem to be for me in the end and for that I am grateful.
Blessings my friend

I am happy for this conversation , it will change me and one thing I wonder is how could you experience / know - " the space"........and what you know to seek ..........for me , I do not know or realize what to seek or what should I seek........

BlueSky

25-01-2014, 12:33 PM

I am happy for this conversation , it will change me and one thing I wonder is how could you experience / know - " the space"........and what you know to seek ..........for me , I do not know or realize what to seek or what should I seek........
I don't know if seeking is the right word but I was driven to find something that I had no idea what it was. In the end, it found me.
The space or emptiness or great void is the center of where my attention comes from now that a shift has happened here. When they say it cannot be known, it seems to me that it has no boundaries so it cannot be defined or known in that sense. However it is you so it is the only thing you really do know. It's nature is hard to explain. It is openness and it is aware. These are just words, don't get hung up on them. What I am finding is that this world is showing me thru all that is and arises, the depthlessness of what I am. This journey is endless in this regard and that is more amazing each moment. The world is seen from this place, its like my attention went from limited form to the the source of form. Emotions, feelings, relationships are enhanced because your nature becomes to accept and allow without question. Even questioning is allowed without question. You are the capacity for the world.
I hope that helps explain a little but keep in mind words really do take away from it.

BlueSky

25-01-2014, 12:53 PM

CSEe

25-01-2014, 12:56 PM

I don't know if seeking is the right word but I was driven to find setting that I had no idea what it was. I'm the end, it found me.
The space or emptiness or great void is the center of where my attention comes from now that a shift has happened here. When they say it cannot be known, it seems to me that it has no boundaries so it cannot be defined or known. However it is you so it is the only thing you really do know. It's nature is hard to explain. It is openness and it is aware. What I am finding is that this world is showing me thru all that is and arises, the depthlessness of what I am. The world is seen from this place.'its like my attention went from limited form to the the source of form. Emotions, feelings, relationships are enhanced because your nature becomes to accept and allow without question. Even questioning is allowed without question. You are the capacity for the world.
I hope that helps explain a little but keep in mind words really do take away from it.

If what I am about to say sound like commenting or explaining of your experiences ...sorry in advance , I am not . I am just sharing my experience with yours ........I noticed that there are many point you said seems understandable to me .....the " space" you mentioned perhaps is my realization on my journey ...a journey of loneliness , alone in a process that never related or connected to others ......perhaps some gain this experiences from mediatation , but to me it is a condition resulted from conditions that one in ..........and such experiences of this " space" or "room" is perhaps could be best described as at ease , relax , happy , compassionate , joy , feeling lifted , feeling like flying .......and in my current understanding , such condition is not resulted from emotions , is not a kind of feeling , is "emptiness" ...a condition free of emotions , free of burden of self .

It is something beyond described because nothing is there to described .....is total nothing so how could anyone described it ? ........but such condition never last ......why ? perhaps because of emotions that I have ........emotions pull me back into what I am now , emotions caused my existence ..........perhaps Buddhism is a natural process that all living or non-living journey back into that "space" ....naturally .

BlueSky

25-01-2014, 01:15 PM

If what I am about to say sound like commenting or explaining of your experiences ...sorry in advance , I am not . I am just sharing my experience with yours ........I noticed that there are many point you said seems understandable to me .....the " space" you mentioned perhaps is my realization on my journey ...a journey of loneliness , alone in a process that never related or connected to others ......perhaps some gain this experiences from mediatation , but to me it is a condition resulted from conditions that one in ..........and such experiences of this " space" or "room" is perhaps could be best described as at ease , relax , happy , compassionate , joy , feeling lifted , feeling like flying .......and in my current understanding , such condition is not resulted from emotions , is not a kind of feeling , is "emptiness" ...a condition free of emotions , free of burden of self .

It is something beyond described because nothing is there to described .....is total nothing so how could anyone described it ? ........but such condition never last ......why ? perhaps because of emotions that I have ........emotions pull me back into what I am now , emotions caused my existence ..........perhaps Buddhism is a natural process that all living or non-living journey back into that "space" ....naturally .

It's not like all "this" describes it. It is that "this" allows it to see its reflection. It's like a 2 sided coin, this thing we are. What you describe sounds like what the edges of the coin might be. Those edges are spoken of by the masters as a mystery. It represents the sameness quality of the capacity of what we are and it's reflection, the world. It is called the abyss. The totality of what you are is the whole coin.

CSEe

25-01-2014, 01:35 PM

It's like this world offers me the opportunity to be open and the more I am open to it, the deeper I experience the openness that I am. The depths of are endless. How awesome is that! This all feels like love!

Perhaps I have different understanding here ........in my current understanding on Buddhism , I am always alone , on my will , in journey of my choice in my world .....travelling into emptiness and never related to others ..........this world , in human knowledge is all existence living together but in Buddhism concept as what I currently undestand , I am alone ....nothing is owned by me or related to me .
So "this world" ...is "my world" ......and is always mine as long as I attached to polluted energy known as emotions .......and Buddhism is the natural and the only process leading me back into the original condition of all existence ....not just mine

CSEe

25-01-2014, 02:26 PM

It's not like all "this" describes it. It is that "this" allows it to see its reflection. It's like a 2 sided coin, this thing we are. What you describe sounds like what the edges of the coin might be. Those edges are spoken of by the masters as a mystery. It represents the sameness quality of the capacity of what we are and it's reflection, the world. It is called the abyss. The totality of what you are is the whole coin.

The " reflection" to me is always me , is me is not something outside me or inside me ...is me so the "mystery" is myself......that is my emotions .......and from my understanding on your words the "coin " is me .......and me is nothingness .........

One could realize own nature but Buddhism is the process to own nature .....the common nothingness of all .....

BlueSky

25-01-2014, 02:44 PM

The " reflection" to me is always me , is me is not something outside me or inside me ...is me so the "mystery" is myself......that is my emotions .......and from my understanding on your words the "coin " is me .......and me is nothingness .........

One could realize own nature but Buddhism is the process to own nature .....the common nothingness of all .....
I don't know if there is a process. You say Buddhism tells you so but do you see that. You mention common nothingness without knowing what it is because Buddhism tells you so. You seem to be following a religion. That may be the source of your condition, and I understand all that, but it will eventually lead to the end of following a religion which can open you to the truth finding you.

BlueSky

25-01-2014, 02:46 PM

Perhaps I have different understanding here ........in my current understanding on Buddhism , I am always alone , on my will , in journey of my choice in my world .....travelling into emptiness and never related to others ..........this world , in human knowledge is all existence living together but in Buddhism concept as what I currently undestand , I am alone ....nothing is owned by me or related to me .
So "this world" ...is "my world" ......and is always mine as long as I attached to polluted energy known as emotions .......and Buddhism is the natural and the only process leading me back into the original condition of all existence ....not just mine
My nature is the capacity. Being alone can only arise from there. It cannot be attributed to what I am

CSEe

25-01-2014, 05:38 PM

I don't know if there is a process. You say Buddhism tells you so but do you see that. You mention common nothingness without knowing what it is because Buddhism tells you so. You seem to be following a religion. That may be the source of your condition, and I understand all that, but it will eventually lead to the end of following a religion which can open you to the truth finding you.

No...no...you totally mis-understood me . Buddhism never tell me anything , to me Buddhism is never an answering machine ..........and Buddhism to me never was , is not and will never be any form of religion . Faith or beliefs is vital in religion but in Buddhism faith or beliefs is something that will cause further confusion ...I guess we need to debate more for better understanding .

In my current understanding / realization , Buddhism is realization ....not knowing but realization on own emotions ..........is you realize your existence , your emotions , the cause of your existence ..................is never a faith or beliefs ...is realization .

CSEe

25-01-2014, 05:46 PM

My nature is the capacity. Being alone can only arise from there. It cannot be attributed to what I am

If base on my understanding on the meaning of "capacity" .......these capacity is product of emotions , is intention .........so if you referring your nature is the capacity ...yes that is human culture. .....being alone in this particular case is to me is not arise from that capacity but a result of realization of that capacity...perhaps what I am is nothingness ...what is myself is the pollutants that causes my existence......Yes "emptiness " cannot attribute to what we are .. what we are is confused being our nature... such confusion attributed by knowledge , culture , lifestyles etc ...

BlueSky

25-01-2014, 09:02 PM

Your current understandings are like a religion to you or so it seems. I know your current condition does not see it that way but you simply must release or see the need to release.....all of it.

CSEe

25-01-2014, 11:53 PM

Your current understandings are like a religion to you or so it seems. I know your current condition does not see it that way but you simply must release or see the need to release.....all of it.
Perhaps I could use my knowledge , from what I have learned about religion and very confident to say that my current understanding is not fit in any kind of religion concept .........as I always realized that I am always different person each moment , progressing in different condition each moment of my journey known as life , as I awaken that I am same as any living or non-living , same as the sun or the dirt under my shoe , same as the bird dropping ........as all living or non-living is in own journey same as me ...........but I also awaken to realized that I still full of pollutants , full of emotions , have special emotions for "my" body , daughter , car , sex , beer , food , koi fish etc and I also realized that none is owned or related to me .........as I travel in this path , I awaken to realized that all being regardless living or non-living is a source of learning for me and I am in this path , never have any faith or beliefs or never owned or holds any beliefs on whatever my realization as I realized this is a constant process that never stop ...so tell me my friend , if I never have any faith or belief on any thing , how could it fit in any religion concept ?........at this moment , I am not aware to release any beliefs , views , thinking as I fully realized that I am always subject to change ........ journey of life is just like river ...if we swim against the current trying to resist the natural flow of the river , we will never succeed and it will caused great deal of suffering , just like if we trying to keep our body as healthy / pretty as possible , aging will happens and trying to fight against this process will never success as the body will dies even rot regardless what is our afford .......awaken to aware , to accept this will be a more relaxing journey / less suffering .......so by keeping things or holding on beliefs or understanding as we live on is just like collecting rubbish and carry on our back ......the more we gain , the more burden on our journey , these burden is ego / pride / knowledge / faith / beliefs .......awaken to Buddhism concept , one will understand that Buddhism is a natural process of freeing these energy of pollutant ...so as we travel into Buddhism concept , our emotions will be decreased / reduced not further increased ...so dear friend , there is nothing to release if I never have any desire to hold on anything ..................

To me , seeing is easy , knowing is easy , experiencing or discovering is also easy but for the factor to realized , to accept and to further aware is something that impossible to be planned or practice ......as in my current understanding , realization on own emotions , acceptance on own desire , love , greed , ego is a result from conditions that is beyond our understanding or learned ......
I hope you stay to discuss/ debate with me as I have learned from you

BlueSky

26-01-2014, 01:36 AM

The concept that emotions are pollutants comes from what you think Buddhism is. That's religion to me. Following what you have been told or read.

CSEe

26-01-2014, 02:44 AM

The concept that emotions are pollutants comes from what you think Buddhism is. That's religion to me. Following what you have been told or read.

In my current understanding , Buddhism is beyond knowledge , and knowledge is just a tiny part of the whole process ..........knowledge can be a factor for realization same as any action or re-action or observation etc ...... but never is the cause , as realization is to me a reflection of the condition we in , not from the knowledge we gain .....it is something we realized not something we expected or gain from desire of seeking ........

My realization seems fit in to what I currently understand from two words said to be from Siddharta ...that is " awake and emptiness " .......perhaps that two words is factor for my realization on my existence , the cause of my existence ..is never something I blindly believe or have faith in what ever source I learned .

In my current understanding , all surround us , regardless living or non-living , regardless dead or alive , regardless action or re-action , from what we see , from what we think , from what we know , from what shown to us , from what we experience in daily life , all happening in each moment of our life will move us into different condition , each moment in our life we dead and re-born , and in different condition each moment ......so whatever happening in our daily life , from whatever source is teaching us , is providing factor to change us .....so awaken to Buddhism , I just progress without any desire to seek or to avoid ...but to awake to aware , aware to realize , realize to accept , accept to further aware .......so in short , all happening in my life changes me .

By the way , so far no one had told me that in Buddhism studies , emotions are pollutant ...infact I was banned in a few Buddhism website for making such statement .....please provide more information to me if you notice in any whare

BlueSky

26-01-2014, 03:29 AM

I wish you all the best. Peace

CSEe

26-01-2014, 09:30 AM

I wish you all the best. Peace

Thanks Capacity , same to you .........

running

28-01-2014, 04:15 PM

CSEe

28-01-2014, 09:59 PM

I'm a master of nothing. Not even truck driving. Lol. But as you know I'm always up for a debate. Lol.

Hi Running , is been at least 3 years I am try to explore the reason that makes a person think that he can teach others in Buddhism , not the history aspect . Some teacher even accept student / teacher relationship and when I sincerely ask for debate on their reason so far none had really share their insight ......

In fact yesterday , I meet a teacher and he even told me I am very rude even to ask him and I will suffer for even for asking him ask .........

I really cant find any reason to agree with him .........so I hope to find out .

Since so far , no teacher had share their reason with me , I hope to find out all possible reason in here ...................but still I prefer even hope to debate directly with teacher that currently teaching , giving talks , monk , who accept student/teacher relationship .....
( I had even ask Dalai Lama via email / facebook many-many time but no reply )

livingkarma

28-01-2014, 10:55 PM

is been at least 3 years I am try to explore the reason that makes a person think that he can teach others in Buddhism , not the history aspect . In fact yesterday , I meet a teacher and he even told me I am very rude even to ask him and I will suffer for even for asking him ask .........

I really cant find any reason to agree with him .........so I hope to find out .[/COLOR]

I agree ...
Three years is a long time spent running circles w/the desires/attachments of the ego ...
It appears the need to debate is only gaining strength ...
Perhaps, answers will be found when "I", ego consciousness, is no longer separate ...
This same topic was posted months ago, it garnered the same answers as this one ...
It is always best to ask the self "why" the need & "what" will be gained ...
Good luck ...

************************************************** ********

Ego is the problem. Sometimes ego is very spoiled, like a child who is constantly throwing tantrums. Sometimes ego doesn't accept where we are. Sometimes ego doesn't accept who we are. Sometimes ego doesn't accept the way things are without any real complaint. So what do we do? There is nothing that we can do. Sometimes ego doesn't accept the fact that the sky is blue but there is nothing that we can do. You see. Sometimes ego doesn't accept that we are living on a planet that is permeated with natural disasters, earthquakes, floods, and other catastrophes. All we can do is accept that and learn how to surrender to the flow of all events.
Anam Thubten, No Self, No Problem

CSEe

29-01-2014, 12:57 AM

I agree ...
Three years is a long time spent running circles w/the desires/attachments of the ego ...
It appears the need to debate is only gaining strength ...
Perhaps, answers will be found when "I", ego consciousness, is no longer separate ...
This same topic was posted months ago, it garnered the same answers as this one ...
It is always best to ask the self "why" the need & "what" will be gained ...
Good luck ...

************************************************** ********

Ego is the problem. Sometimes ego is very spoiled, like a child who is constantly throwing tantrums. Sometimes ego doesn't accept where we are. Sometimes ego doesn't accept who we are. Sometimes ego doesn't accept the way things are without any real complaint. So what do we do? There is nothing that we can do. Sometimes ego doesn't accept the fact that the sky is blue but there is nothing that we can do. You see. Sometimes ego doesn't accept that we are living on a planet that is permeated with natural disasters, earthquakes, floods, and other catastrophes. All we can do is accept that and learn how to surrender to the flow of all events.
Anam Thubten, No Self, No Problem

Perhaps I had over that realization , perhaps I now realized that ego is an emotion same as love , same as greed , same as fear and by awaken to Buddhism , my attachment on this emotion will be reduced / decreased not increase ..............
Perhaps you are using your knowledge of human culture on me .........yes I agree , by common sense in debate , we wanted to show our point is right or to defend our view ......by that is human culture .
Buddhism in my current understanding is beyond human culture and debate for me is to understand , to discover , as a factor for realization and change and as I progress into this path ,my emotion , my ego , my desire , my fear etc will be reduced not increased ............

So in short , I debate not to defend my view but to challenge my view and change............so is different from your view .
In Buddhism as what I CURRENTLY understand , it is human suffering to stay in any level of awareness .......because Buddhism is a process and one is in constant change ...I am different person each moment in my life regardless whether I realized it or not ........

livingkarma

29-01-2014, 01:55 AM

How you treat people is always worth considering regardless of who they are or what they represent or whether you want to challenge your view & change ...
I'm certain you are aware people have the right to be human, to behave as a human at all times ...
Spirituality as well Buddhist philosophies are to be assimilated into daily life whenever, however & as often as possible to the best of one's human ability ...
Defenses are taught to fend off rudeness, bullying, physical & psychic attacks ...
One would be foolish to not protect themself ...
All people grow & evolve till death, however, not all mature ...
Three years of impertinence has yielded the same answers & same results; it is being stuck in one place ...
Repetition, repetition, repetition to infinity & beyond (?) ...
Good answers have been provided, but no advancement has been made ...
No matter how it is sliced, diced, minced or chopped the approach has not been successful nor has the request been reasonable ...
Again, good answers have been provided, but not accepted ...
There are some questions one must answer for one's self ...
And there are some that are all about the person doing the asking ...
I pray you will find your way out as I do for my own children & others ...
:hug3:

running

29-01-2014, 04:08 AM

Hi Running , is been at least 3 years I am try to explore the reason that makes a person think that he can teach others in Buddhism , not the history aspect . Some teacher even accept student / teacher relationship and when I sincerely ask for debate on their reason so far none had really share their insight ......

In fact yesterday , I meet a teacher and he even told me I am very rude even to ask him and I will suffer for even for asking him ask .........

I really cant find any reason to agree with him .........so I hope to find out .

Since so far , no teacher had share their reason with me , I hope to find out all possible reason in here ...................but still I prefer even hope to debate directly with teacher that currently teaching , giving talks , monk , who accept student/teacher relationship .....
( I had even ask Dalai Lama via email / facebook many-many time but no reply )

I have met a couple of masters. The human character or culture doesn't seem to have anything to do with it from what I have seen. It seems like from my perspective is its like becoming a rubber ball. A rubber ball bounces right back to its natural self quickly.being oneself is easy when your a rubber ball. What is there to fear? You bounce back

Im not enlightened. But one thing I can testify from my personal experience is this. No matter what I feel good. I get angry, upset, sad, and so on. But when the kundalini awakens natural drugs release through the body. Since mine has risen or in the process I'm medicated. So this is the thing I would debate about Buddhism. The lack of being honest about this. The masters I have met call it something because it is something. Its bliss or also referred to as shakti. Its been spoken about many ways by countless masters. I would bet the Buddha spoke about it. Somehow religion has taken Buddhisms place and now deny what's happening. Science is aware of the penal gland. And how it releases natural drugs into the body. Again as i said is what I would debate about with a Buddhist master.

CSEe

29-01-2014, 07:55 AM

How you treat people is always worth considering regardless of who they are or what they represent or whether you want to challenge your view & change ...

Sincerely I do not have other intention than learning so if a person accept others call him teacher , teaching others Buddhism even accept others as his student , I guess is never rude if I forward this question to him ...perhaps if I in their shoes I am more then happy to share ........I do not see anything wrong for asking a teacher their reason to teach .......

I'm certain you are aware people have the right to be human, to behave as a human at all times ...

To me , in Buddhism not just human...all being regardless living or non-living are in same journey like human ..is never a right ..is natural for all to live or in own existence ......infact perhaps being a human itself we are distrubing others natural existence .....

Spirituality as well Buddhist philosophies are to be assimilated into daily life whenever, however & as often as possible to the best of one's human ability ...
Defenses are taught to fend off rudeness, bullying, physical & psychic attacks ...
One would be foolish to not protect themself ...

Is human culture to protect own existence , own life and for that as human that currently full of polluted energy , I fully agree with you ....but perhaps Buddhism concept as what I current understand ,is much beyond this understanding , I can explain further on this if you interested ......

All people grow & evolve till death, however, not all mature ...
Three years of impertinence has yielded the same answers & same results; it is being stuck in one place ...
Repetition, repetition, repetition to infinity & beyond (?) ...

Perhaps you see me as a same person three years ago ...perhaps is common sense for anyone to think so ...but my current understanding of Buddhism is I am a different person each moment in my journey call life ...is never be the same not by choice.....I realized I am not the same because I never wish to be the same nor to be different , awaken to Buddhism , I realized that is human suffering to create desire , to attach to own emotion......sorry in advance , I hope you could free yourself from me.......

Good answers have been provided, but no advancement has been made ...
No matter how it is sliced, diced, minced or chopped the approach has not been successful nor has the request been reasonable ...
Again, good answers have been provided, but not accepted ...
There are some questions one must answer for one's self ...
And there are some that are all about the person doing the asking ...
I pray you will find your way out as I do for my own children & others ...
:hug3:

Sorry in adance , as I read your post I noticed there are lots of desire on your part and is common happening to me ...many master / teacher just want me to follow their answer even agree with them.....I hope others share their views instead to create intention to teach me ....as I currently understand , Buddhism is all about learning never teach....I hope you stay and continue debate with me...thanks alot

CSEe

29-01-2014, 08:08 AM

I have met a couple of masters. The human character or culture doesn't seem to have anything to do with it from what I have seen. It seems like from my perspective is its like becoming a rubber ball. A rubber ball bounces right back to its natural self quickly.being oneself is easy when your a rubber ball. What is there to fear? You bounce back

Im not enlightened. But one thing I can testify from my personal experience is this. No matter what I feel good. I get angry, upset, sad, and so on. But when the kundalini awakens natural drugs release through the body. Since mine has risen or in the process I'm medicated. So this is the thing I would debate about Buddhism. The lack of being honest about this. The masters I have met call it something because it is something. Its bliss or also referred to as shakti. Its been spoken about many ways by countless masters. I would bet the Buddha spoke about it. Somehow religion has taken Buddhisms place and now deny what's happening. Science is aware of the penal gland. And how it releases natural drugs into the body. Again as i said is what I would debate about with a Buddhist master.

Thanks Running , I have learned ...

ThreeOfWhite

08-02-2014, 01:51 AM

Hello CSEe, to answer your original question, when I spent time with masters there were never so many words. Without getting preachy or discussing philosphy, you have the answers you need. Masters merely provided a setting and means to find them. The teachings of past bohdisattvas are the tools, nothing more.

CSEe

09-02-2014, 01:31 AM

DoctorStrange

26-02-2014, 07:49 AM

Heart

26-02-2014, 08:36 AM

CSEe

26-02-2014, 11:49 AM

I honestly don't think debating is the right way to go. You either accept their "teachings" or you don't. They give you their points of view, then the rest is up to you. That's the way i see it anyway.

Sorry in advance , if someone sharing knowledge to me , I will certainly act as what you said , because knowledge is something we could learn ...but in my current understanding , Buddhism is not something we know or something we seek to know or even something we will know so I am curious and could like to ask them ....trying to learn from them , thats all .....by debating I am just challenging my view by discussing on each other reason ........

CSEe

26-02-2014, 11:53 AM

Interesting post

It is said that the greatest enemy is also your greatest teacher, seek out what is your greatest enemy and you will find your master,

I would say I am my own worst enemy, so that makes me a master unto myself. I claim mastery over no one but myself after all what is a master if not someone who takes responsibility of his/her own inner space

It is unfortunate that a Master would portray such anger to you, but remember he too is human and subject to cause and effect, and to be human is to error, Being a Master does not mean one is perfect or knows all the answers, but sees more clearly the depth that pain and suffering can go while attaining a steady stream of wisdom and understanding The more knowledge you know the more suffering you will endure

We are all masters of our own self-mastery

Yes agreed .......but debate did pushes me into greater understanding that is why I hope to debate with them