Subjective objectivity [Archive]

Greenslade

24-10-2013, 11:25 AM

Hi Greenslade,

Yes of course, but that may simplify a more complex process, as it identifies two positions of reaction in ones-self. And while there may be two perspectives, which one is listening, becomes as relevant as what is being heard-felt-thought-read. As then we may add to the mix, the subjectivity or potential objectivity that may shape the interpretation in meaning of such self-interaction.

Although it may seem as if I am complicating the simplicity of self-understanding, it is more a case of considering what we may take for granted. As what an individual may feel/think as inner considerations, may not be reflected in what becomes expressed. Or the subjectivity of an inner consideration may become more objectively understood, when it is expressed to be considered. Like intuition which derives from a less certain source, than the presumed physicality of sensitivity. How it may be expressed, may determine a consideration of subjectivity or objectivity.

As an example, consider a Spiritual clairvoyant, who intuitively expresses what they themselves define to be a reflection from `someone else`. Their intuition though an inner sensitivity, reflects objectivity in perception, as they are separate from the source of what they express, in a message from someone/somewhere else. While defining their interpretation as being subjective, nullifies the authenticity of their Spiritual clairvoyance.

Or a person in denial who rejects the truth of their inner knowing, as their surface condition cannot cope with its consequences, we may say they are `not` listening to themselves. Depending maybe, upon another`s objectivity to highlight what is, someone else`s inner reality, which may result in the individual in denial, having to accept a more objective understanding of their own subdued, subjective inner feelings.

So when we speak of having self-understanding, it is defined as being purely subjective, while the potential significance of objectivity in self-understanding, should not be underestimated, especially when our inner sensitivities may abridge varying natures.

Hi Papa Bear

I think you'll enjoy this - http://www.gestaltreality.com/2013/05/22/the-multidimensional-self/

For me, subjectivity and objectivity are modes of thought and not the 'be all and end all', they can only occur when something is seen as separate and different. Objectivity is relative to our own perspectives as much as subjectivity is. Everything is relative or nothing is, if We Are One and everything is Spirit. With your clairvoyant example and their subjectivity nullifying the authenticity, is the authenticity of your Spirituality (and everyone else's) similarly nullified? Everything is relative to something else and therefore subjective?

To me Spirituality doesn't mean much unless it translates into the 'real world', otherwise it's just a mental exercise. That's not to take anything away from the Spirituality of others though, each to their own.

I've spent a lot of time around clairvoyants and I'm clairsentient myself. I don't know how other clairs see the process but in my development classes we were taught to be objective and I think most are, they give what they get (if they are a 'true' clair and not showboating). I am a part of the message-giving process and simply a channel, a method of transport if you like. I personally have no perceptions of the message itself other than how that process affects me personally, so does that make the message objective and therefore authentic? The clair would probably call it objective and authentic.

I enjoy writing, and often it becomes what people would call 'ghost writing'. I sit at the keyboard and for a few moments, take a deep breath and put myself in that mode. My energies change and I feel Spirit with me, there's a slight shift in my consciousness. The words that finally arrive on the page have much artistic licence but they are the result of the interaction and the mask behind which that process happens. For me this is important, not in the saying 'We Are One' but in understanding what that actually means in 'real Life' and the exploring. I listen to myself and write about myself, and the lines blur between the writer and the written and in the reading back the written becomes the writer. This is where Gestalt Reality kicks in for me, the two aspects of myself interacting to produce the words and behind the words the understanding. In that space nothing is objective nor subjective because nothing is relative to anything else. There is a small bubble of reality for those short times that perceives a small corner of the Universe as a Gestalt of the rest of the Universe. Fractals work here too, if you prefer.

Being honest Papa Bear, the objective vs subjective discussion has my head in a whirl, I can't seem to shake that both are relative and objectivity is simply where one puts one's feet. My objective thinking says that it would make more sense to throw objective and subjective out of the window. OK, I'll listen to myself. While it's easy co come up with arguments that everything is objective it's just as easy to come up with arguments that everything is subjective.

I don't worry too much over what is or isn't subjective, I try to understand how it is expressed within my reality. There is always an interaction going on between two 'selves' or aspects within us and each gains something from the interaction - even if that's gaining an understanding of denial of the existence of one aspect. Two 'selves' in the same situation gives two different perspectives within the illusion that they are separate, but in reality they are not separate. One sees one perspective and the other sees both perspectives at the same time.

My Spiritual Journey really 'started' with one question. "Who Am I?" After being in forums for a while it would be simple to come out with all these 'stock phrases' - Spirit on a human Journey, multi-dimensional Being of the Light, an expression of the Universe - pick one. For me the words hold no meaning in themselves until I have experienced that in some way, that's the trainer in me coming out. What I've found is that there are all these different aspects of myself right here, right now and everything is a relative expression of the interaction between those aspects in whatever shape or form that takes. If that expression is a story of swords and dragons then so be it, for others it may be a discussion of subjective vs objective.

Saggi

24-10-2013, 04:40 PM

Hi Saggi,

And by attempting such, maybe some shared considerations may surface a more objective understanding of the possibilities. Rather than the personality of an individual subjectivity, at least that is the intention.

Imagine that!! :hug:

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

Saggi

24-10-2013, 04:44 PM

Being honest Papa Bear, the objective vs subjective discussion has my head in a whirl, I can't seem to shake that both are relative and objectivity is simply where one puts one's feet. My objective thinking says that it would make more sense to throw objective and subjective out of the window. OK, I'll listen to myself. While it's easy co come up with arguments that everything is objective it's just as easy to come up with arguments that everything is subjective.

That's the whole point LOL!

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

Papa Bear

24-10-2013, 04:57 PM

Hi Greenslade,
I think you'll enjoy this - http://www.gestaltreality.com/2013/0...ensional-self/
I did, it’s the first reflection of seth I have read, thank you for that. As a glimpse it translates the potential for complexity, in a manner where simplicity also resides. Maybe highlighting the potential for understanding what universality in oneness may actually mean, while leaving consideration for, where one perceives from. And on a personal level, offered another example, for my own method of developmental understanding to activate in reflection. As I have long enjoyed integrating my own simple nature of perspective understanding in awareness, with newly discovered reflections of a nature similar to my own. As my own is intimately self- styled in self-experience.

For me, subjectivity and objectivity are modes of thought and not the 'be all and end all', they can only occur when something is seen as separate and different. Objectivity is relative to our own perspectives as much as subjectivity is. Everything is relative or nothing is, if We Are One and everything is Spirit. With your clairvoyant example and their subjectivity nullifying the authenticity, is the authenticity of your Spirituality (and everyone else's) similarly nullified? Everything is relative to something else and therefore subjective?

To me Spirituality doesn't mean much unless it translates into the 'real world', otherwise it's just a mental exercise. That's not to take anything away from the Spirituality of others though, each to their own.
I completely agree with your conclusions.

I've spent a lot of time around clairvoyants and I'm clairsentient myself. I don't know how other clairs see the process but in my development classes we were taught to be objective and I think most are, they give what they get (if they are a 'true' clair and not showboating). I am a part of the message-giving process and simply a channel, a method of transport if you like. I personally have no perceptions of the message itself other than how that process affects me personally, so does that make the message objective and therefore authentic? The clair would probably call it objective and authentic.
In trying, (often failing) to be a `devil’s advocate` in reflection of a particular topic, I often remove my own perspective, from what may include, what is more representative of a more `common` perception or interpretation. To encourage as much intimacy of personal perspective, to challenge the conventions of accepted commonality in thought. As alternatively, I may have written most of the words, you just did.

I enjoy writing, and often it becomes what people would call 'ghost writing'. I sit at the keyboard and for a few moments, take a deep breath and put myself in that mode. My energies change and I feel Spirit with me, there's a slight shift in my consciousness. The words that finally arrive on the page have much artistic licence but they are the result of the interaction and the mask behind which that process happens. For me this is important, not in the saying 'We Are One' but in understanding what that actually means in 'real Life' and the exploring. I listen to myself and write about myself, and the lines blur between the writer and the written and in the reading back the written becomes the writer. This is where Gestalt Reality kicks in for me, the two aspects of myself interacting to produce the words and behind the words the understanding. In that space nothing is objective nor subjective because nothing is relative to anything else. There is a small bubble of reality for those short times that perceives a small corner of the Universe as a Gestalt of the rest of the Universe. Fractals work here too, if you prefer.
Again there is much you have shared here, that I could have written myself, beyond the `Gestalt` as I have just seen its reference for the first time, lol. Though I would add, that the currents and flows of interactive dialog, can in my part, bring a sense of shared `reality bubbles`, in reflection of each other. And that often brings a sense of satisfaction, as an interconnectivity of `Gestalt`s` can remind, that we are many in a sense of shared oneness, while reflecting admiration for your insightfulness.

Being honest Papa Bear, the objective vs subjective discussion has my head in a whirl, I can't seem to shake that both are relative and objectivity is simply where one puts one's feet. My objective thinking says that it would make more sense to throw objective and subjective out of the window. OK, I'll listen to myself. While it's easy co come up with arguments that everything is objective it's just as easy to come up with arguments that everything is subjective.
I completely agree, but without the `devil`s advocate` there would have been no thread, topic for discussion. And no reasoning for, “it would make more sense to throw objective and subjective out of the window.” For that is why I like surfacing the routine of conventional thought, especially in Spiritual nature, or the self-in-many=one. For it often offers individual reassessment, or re-confirmation of what one may hold as personal understanding. As shared reflections, often offer either opportunity to be realized.

I don't worry too much over what is or isn't subjective, I try to understand how it is expressed within my reality. There is always an interaction going on between two 'selves' or aspects within us and each gains something from the interaction - even if that's gaining an understanding of denial of the existence of one aspect. Two 'selves' in the same situation gives two different perspectives within the illusion that they are separate, but in reality they are not separate. One sees one perspective and the other sees both perspectives at the same time.
Again (with a smile) I completely agree. Though I would add, that when such is reflected as part of shared considerations, the conventionality of response, can often manifest such a variation of interpretation, that finding some form of sameness in difference can become difficult. As inner/higher, subjectivity/objectivity, considerations give but a couple of examples, of why creating the space for `you` to reflect your perspectives, gives good reason for this thread.

My Spiritual Journey really 'started' with one question. "Who Am I?" After being in forums for a while it would be simple to come out with all these 'stock phrases' - Spirit on a human Journey, multi-dimensional Being of the Light, an expression of the Universe - pick one. For me the words hold no meaning in themselves until I have experienced that in some way, that's the trainer in me coming out. What I've found is that there are all these different aspects of myself right here, right now and everything is a relative expression of the interaction between those aspects in whatever shape or form that takes. If that expression is a story of swords and dragons then so be it, for others it may be a discussion of subjective vs objective.
And for others it may be, we share more in sameness than difference Greenslade, and I thank you for your well-considered, intimate and sincere reflections. You have worded my own expression before and better than I could have, and added the ` Gestalt reality` to my considered understanding. And presented me with one of the most intimate reflections, of what is my own understanding. So if a thread may create its own flow, I believe we have just harmonized within it.

Papa Bear

24-10-2013, 04:59 PM

Imagine that!! :hug:

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx
:hug3: :cool:

Greenslade

25-10-2013, 10:34 AM

That's the whole point LOL!

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

Perhaps, but when the headaches are gone and you start seeing something different and think "Is that little old me?"

Hi Papa Bear

I did, it’s the first reflection of seth I have read, thank you for that. As a glimpse it translates the potential for complexity, in a manner where simplicity also resides. Maybe highlighting the potential for understanding what universality in oneness may actually mean, while leaving consideration for, where one perceives from. And on a personal level, offered another example, for my own method of developmental understanding to activate in reflection. As I have long enjoyed integrating my own simple nature of perspective understanding in awareness, with newly discovered reflections of a nature similar to my own. As my own is intimately self- styled in self-experience.

You're very welcome.

This is perhaps the whole point of us not being clones of each other, if only we would allow ourselves that. I have noticed changes happening, in that people are not so willing to jump into the box labelled 'Spirituality' so much and are looking for their own answers, taking their own Journey. For me Spirituality doesn't mean much unless it translates down into 'real Life'. Perhaps that is a reflection of what is happening in this realm/dimension, that Spirit is having the experience of its own 'Spirituality' within the human context. This is what I'm finding now, it seems appropriate since there is more of an integration going on as I come towards the place where every perception of separation seems to be fading. My own Life becomes a reflection of my 'Spirit's Life', Gestalt seems to answer so many of the questions. But often far from simple, like a seed the understanding is that grows to the complexity of a tree which then interacts with its environment, and on from there.

In trying, (often failing) to be a `devil’s advocate` in reflection of a particular topic, I often remove my own perspective, from what may include, what is more representative of a more `common` perception or interpretation. To encourage as much intimacy of personal perspective, to challenge the conventions of accepted commonality in thought. As alternatively, I may have written most of the words, you just did.
I'm a rebel, so shoot me :wink: I learned very early on that trying to take things from a different perspective often ties me in knots, trying to be something I'm not just doesn't work. The rebel in me bucks against the common flow of thought and often I find myself at odds with the ones I interact with, that leaves an opening for the devil's advocate. Often though it's a lonely place to be, but the separation can sort the wheat from the chaff and a true connection comes into place - as has happened here. It's been 'flagged up' before, it just needed a place to happen.

Again (with a smile) I completely agree. Though I would add, that when such is reflected as part of shared considerations, the conventionality of response, can often manifest such a variation of interpretation, that finding some form of sameness in difference can become difficult. As inner/higher, subjectivity/objectivity, considerations give but a couple of examples, of why creating the space for `you` to reflect your perspectives, gives good reason for this thread.

At the root we are not so different after all - any of us. We are at different points of the circle that starts with unity and has separation opposite, but how we go around the circle is the interesting part. The Buddhist Tree of Life springs to mind here where we are each a circle, each with our own Sphere of thought/consciousness that overlaps with each other. Some say that separation is an illusion and that in reality it doesn't exist, but I can see a reality where the illusion of separation has reason for existence and it's at times like this that the reason becomes manifest. Within the illusion (if that's what it is) of separation unity takes on a different meaning and becomes not just a stock phrase but an experience. Electricity cannot flow unless there is a potential difference between this pole and that pole, the wind does not blow unless there is a difference in pressure. As with energy.

I would agree that those are good reasons for this thread, it's always good to share and whether you take your own perspective or play devil's advocate is a choice. And yes it does facilitate the discussion so it's not a bad thing after all, differences in perspective creates the flow. There is also something behind the mask of the interaction though and each takes their own from it, as it should be.

And for others it may be, we share more in sameness than difference Greenslade, and I thank you for your well-considered, intimate and sincere reflections. You have worded my own expression before and better than I could have, and added the ` Gestalt reality` to my considered understanding. And presented me with one of the most intimate reflections, of what is my own understanding. So if a thread may create its own flow, I believe we have just harmonized within it.
It would be very difficult to answer this part with any real meaning that doesn't involve a long, very long diatribe, even what I'm about to say would take a lengthy explanation. So in the vein of the interaction perhaps you'll at least get the gist.

As they say in an ancient tongue - "Ahlay ahllayah, chalosa, adeh anonis". Which means 'see and understand, young one, your time will come'.

See you on the flipside.

Saggi

25-10-2013, 11:12 AM

Perhaps, but when the headaches are gone and you start seeing something different and think "Is that little old me?"

Of course it is,,,

It's always you,,,,

It's just with a little expansion a 'change' has taken place within you,,,,

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

Papa Bear

25-10-2013, 06:38 PM

Hi, Greenslade,
This is perhaps the whole point of us not being clones of each other, if only we would allow ourselves that. I have noticed changes happening, in that people are not so willing to jump into the box labelled 'Spirituality' so much and are looking for their own answers, taking their own Journey. For me Spirituality doesn't mean much unless it translates down into 'real Life'. Perhaps that is a reflection of what is happening in this realm/dimension, that Spirit is having the experience of its own 'Spirituality' within the human context. This is what I'm finding now, it seems appropriate since there is more of an integration going on as I come towards the place where every perception of separation seems to be fading. My own Life becomes a reflection of my 'Spirit's Life', Gestalt seems to answer so many of the questions. But often far from simple, like a seed the understanding is that grows to the complexity of a tree which then interacts with its environment, and on from there.
You define it, in its simplicity, and once again I find myself straining to expand beyond your own words, to reflect a personal meaning, beyond, what you reflect is my reflection. Which surfaces a consideration I have long held, that in generations of human development, what I believe to be `our` generation. May have brought and manifest the reality of Spirituality, into the psyche of human evolution, by being living examples of its translation into human life. Though I direct no disrespect to the generations who have followed, or passed before us. I cannot ignore what has been plain in front of my face, for most of my adult life.

As the resulting generations have blossomed in the creative example our generations presence in life has displayed. I have observed an underground of individual Spirituality, burst into mainstream society. And change the very fabric of individual choice, beyond the restrictions of conventionality, which binds minds to orthadoxy. With no standout leaders or celebrities to cite, in humility I reflect a respectful recognition of a generation, born with intention birthed by Spiritual reasoning, who have in the most part, fullfilled their intention.

I'm a rebel, so shoot me I learned very early on that trying to take things from a different perspective often ties me in knots, trying to be something I'm not just doesn't work. The rebel in me bucks against the common flow of thought and often I find myself at odds with the ones I interact with, that leaves an opening for the devil's advocate. Often though it's a lonely place to be, but the separation can sort the wheat from the chaff and a true connection comes into place - as has happened here. It's been 'flagged up' before, it just needed a place to happen.
I have to admit, that I have been surprised that what is a modern means of connectivity, this forum, has not become the obvious connection point, for a `multitude` of those of like mind and heart. Accepting that I have only been here for a year or so, and that there are those who have already shared `sameness`, and that many view in the background. I have felt that this forum would bring the reflections of many who share the reflection that, ` Often though it's a lonely place to be`. Maybe I missunderstand my own restrictions of observation in this regard, and even open myself up to criticism. But the numbers I feel who may share our understanding from within their life experience and its journey, have or may not have `turned up`, in the ether-net.

At the root we are not so different after all - any of us. We are at different points of the circle that starts with unity and has separation opposite, but how we go around the circle is the interesting part. The Buddhist Tree of Life springs to mind here where we are each a circle, each with our own Sphere of thought/consciousness that overlaps with each other. Some say that separation is an illusion and that in reality it doesn't exist, but I can see a reality where the illusion of separation has reason for existence and it's at times like this that the reason becomes manifest. Within the illusion (if that's what it is) of separation unity takes on a different meaning and becomes not just a stock phrase but an experience. Electricity cannot flow unless there is a potential difference between this pole and that pole, the wind does not blow unless there is a difference in pressure. As with energy.

I would agree that those are good reasons for this thread, it's always good to share and whether you take your own perspective or play devil's advocate is a choice. And yes it does facilitate the discussion so it's not a bad thing after all, differences in perspective creates the flow. There is also something behind the mask of the interaction though and each takes their own from it, as it should be.
I agree, though it is in nature that I feel the simple truth self-defines. As the nature of materiality self-defines its nature in diference and how it finds shared sameness. For it is only in the searching mind of sentient human beings, that illusions grow from confusions in seperation from what is natural. While interconnectivity in feeling/mind has always been more ethereal in nature, than the materiality within which its activity and actions become manifest. As most attempts to harmonize those interconnected natures, have been understood more as individual experience, than as a shared whole. Those natures interconnect beyond the human understanding of how or why, while a fuller nature of self-in-being still naturally flows within thier interconnectivity.

For is that not just the flow of it, the feeling/mind of sentient human life tries to understand, what it need only observe in experience. We create what we believe to be anew, while its existence is all we have discovered. Likened to a dot in the center of its outer circle, everything in possibility awaits the `dots` connection to any part of the whole circle of self-in- reality.

It would be very difficult to answer this part with any real meaning that doesn't involve a long, very long diatribe, even what I'm about to say would take a lengthy explanation. So in the vein of the interaction perhaps you'll at least get the gist.

As they say in an ancient tongue - "Ahlay ahllayah, chalosa, adeh anonis". Which means 'see and understand, young one, your time will come'.

See you on the flipside.
Namaste Greenslade.

Greenslade

26-10-2013, 11:39 AM

Hi, Greenslade,

You define it, in its simplicity, and once again I find myself straining to expand beyond your own words, to reflect a personal meaning, beyond, what you reflect is my reflection. Which surfaces a consideration I have long held, that in generations of human development, what I believe to be `our` generation. May have brought and manifest the reality of Spirituality, into the psyche of human evolution, by being living examples of its translation into human life. Though I direct no disrespect to the generations who have followed, or passed before us. I cannot ignore what has been plain in front of my face, for most of my adult life.

As the resulting generations have blossomed in the creative example our generations presence in life has displayed. I have observed an underground of individual Spirituality, burst into mainstream society. And change the very fabric of individual choice, beyond the restrictions of conventionality, which binds minds to orthadoxy. With no standout leaders or celebrities to cite, in humility I reflect a respectful recognition of a generation, born with intention birthed by Spiritual reasoning, who have in the most part, fullfilled their intention.
I'm a trainer by trade, and to of the things I've trained people in are computing and events management. In both of these I've always put something across to people - K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple, Stupid :smile:

"All religions were right for that culture at that time" and while Spirituality isn't a religion per se, the same applies. Spirituality can't help but reflect human nature, so while human nature changes so Spirituality changes. Part of the changes that are happening are changing because we change, as we become more open to it and express it more freely that is passed on to those that 'come behind us' - in these forums we pass on the free thinking to the newbies who then pass it on to others. I often liken it to the development of a child, following the gurus is like a child dressing up like mummy or daddy. That isn't disrespect (neither is yours) but a recognition of something of a wider perspective. The Spiritual child is beginning to form its own identity, freed from the shackles of dogma and orthodoxy. In my own opinion, it's about time too. My mother has always been open to it although she was never what might be described as Spiritual, she always accepted that I was a 'naturally Spiritual' and I have passed that onto my daughter. I have always been open with her but never forced her, she has come up with her own questions for what she is experiencing and I've tried to explain it in a way she'll understand.

To coin a phrase without being intentionally corny, the young ones are finding their own Light and they want to express it as young people want to express much of what goes on within them. For me there is little more beautiful when someone finds their own Light and it makes a more wonderful Universe for us all. There have been times when I've been a part of that process and it has truly been an amazing experience.

I have to admit, that I have been surprised that what is a modern means of connectivity, this forum, has not become the obvious connection point, for a `multitude` of those of like mind and heart. Accepting that I have only been here for a year or so, and that there are those who have already shared `sameness`, and that many view in the background. I have felt that this forum would bring the reflections of many who share the reflection that, ` Often though it's a lonely place to be`. Maybe I missunderstand my own restrictions of observation in this regard, and even open myself up to criticism. But the numbers I feel who may share our understanding from within their life experience and its journey, have or may not have `turned up`, in the ether-net. I think your key phrase here is "of like mind and heart". My beliefs and concepts have always been a tad unorthodox and there are things that I simply refuse point blank to share in here - again. From personal observation it seems that there is Spirituality and there is 'real Life, and never the twain shall meet. There are those that will dissect and analyse Spirituality, use logic and rational explanations and use objective thinking. Each is on their own Path, as it should be, and all things are relative. However. We are beings of energy, the heart creates more electrical energy than the brain and pumps throughout the whole body. Emotions are energy but depending on how it manifests it becomes Love, hate, anger.. This tells my mind something very different. While some are humans having a Spiritual experience they seem to forget that they are Spirit on a human Journey, Spirituality seems to have been turned 180 degrees for some. But in difference we find sameness, perhaps there will come a day when every Soul connects with every other but until such time as things are the way they are for a reason.

They have turned up, they are here now but are few and far between. Some have connected and moved on, some have yet to connect and some stay with us like old friends that have been around for seemingly an eternity. But if we don't recognise ourselves, can we recognise ourselves in others? Can they?

I agree, though it is in nature that I feel the simple truth self-defines. As the nature of materiality self-defines its nature in diference and how it finds shared sameness. For it is only in the searching mind of sentient human beings, that illusions grow from confusions in seperation from what is natural. While interconnectivity in feeling/mind has always been more ethereal in nature, than the materiality within which its activity and actions become manifest. As most attempts to harmonize those interconnected natures, have been understood more as individual experience, than as a shared whole. Those natures interconnect beyond the human understanding of how or why, while a fuller nature of self-in-being still naturally flows within thier interconnectivity.

For is that not just the flow of it, the feeling/mind of sentient human life tries to understand, what it need only observe in experience. We create what we believe to be anew, while its existence is all we have discovered. Likened to a dot in the center of its outer circle, everything in possibility awaits the `dots` connection to any part of the whole circle of self-in- reality. There are few Spiritual maxims that I've taken on board, if I wrote them all down they would struggle to fill a decent-length paragraph. One of those is "Find your own Truth, for there is none better. Find what truly resonates with you and take it as your own, leave the rest behind for it is not yours." The other is "Forget your mind, it can only deal with what it already knows and understands. Use your imagination, it is free and unfettered. Listen to your Heart, it will tell you right from wrong." When you put those two together you have very powerful tools.

"Five Steps to Kevin Bacon" was one of those silly ideas that took off a while back. The aim was to be able to connect to Kevin Bacon (the actor) in five steps or less. So someone was connected to the guy who made the sandwiches who connected to the guy who connected by delivering them to the studio caterers who connected by giving them to Kevin Bacon. Phew. While on the face it was a silly concept, probably thought up by some students in a bar one night, it showed in practical terms that nobody on the planet is really that far removed from anyone else. Sometimes we just have to find out where they dots are and what they are. I don't think they connect so far from human understanding, where the lack of connection lies is more in the recognition of the connections. What really connects us?

We are not just here for our Journey we are here for others as well, and we are all Spirit on a human Journey. There is disconnection often with Spiritual people, in that they perceive themselves to be Spiritual while others are not. We often can't or won't see the threads of the connections that often span generations. An example would be that you're standing in a supermarket queue and you smile at someone, and because you smiled they think Life isn't so bad after all. Suicide has been averted, and three generations later their offspring finds a cure for cancer. It started with a smile but it changed the Lives of so many. Often we're not privy to see that in action but once in a while, if we look closely enough we can.

Here's a pretty powerful exercise to try. Sit in a chair quietly, clear your mind and ask yourself one question. If you had never existed, how different would the Lives of those around you be? The Lives of your parents and siblings would change, and because of those changes how would those changes affect others in their Lives? Five Steps to Kevin Bacon, and the Wizard of Oz has its hidden meanings. All we have to do is follow the threads. For me the connections have always been there and we are all connected in some way or another and not always so ethereal after all, but often things become lost in the translation. The fun part is remembering how to speak the language.

Namaste, Papa Bear.

Papa Bear

28-10-2013, 06:47 PM

Hi Greenslade,
Part of the changes that are happening are changing because we change, as we become more open to it and express it more freely that is passed on to those that 'come behind us' - in these forums we pass on the free thinking to the newbies who then pass it on to others.
That does simplify it.

My mother has always been open to it although she was never what might be described as Spiritual, she always accepted that I was a 'naturally Spiritual' and I have passed that onto my daughter. I have always been open with her but never forced her, she has come up with her own questions for what she is experiencing and I've tried to explain it in a way she'll understand.
And that reflects my own experience.

To coin a phrase without being intentionally corny, the young ones are finding their own Light and they want to express it as young people want to express much of what goes on within them. For me there is little more beautiful when someone finds their own Light and it makes a more wonderful Universe for us all. There have been times when I've been a part of that process and it has truly been an amazing experience.
I could not agree more.

I think your key phrase here is "of like mind and heart". My beliefs and concepts have always been a tad unorthodox and there are things that I simply refuse point blank to share in here - again. From personal observation it seems that there is Spirituality and there is 'real Life, and never the twain shall meet. There are those that will dissect and analyse Spirituality, use logic and rational explanations and use objective thinking. Each is on their own Path, as it should be, and all things are relative. However. We are beings of energy, the heart creates more electrical energy than the brain and pumps throughout the whole body. Emotions are energy but depending on how it manifests it becomes Love, hate, anger.. This tells my mind something very different. While some are humans having a Spiritual experience they seem to forget that they are Spirit on a human Journey, Spirituality seems to have been turned 180 degrees for some. But in difference we find sameness, perhaps there will come a day when every Soul connects with every other but until such time as things are the way they are for a reason.

“From personal observation it seems that there is Spirituality and there is 'real Life, and never the twain shall meet.”
From personal experience, I experience the reverse, as my Spirituality has completely integrated into the routine flow of my `real life`. And that is why I have a more Spiritualistic vocabulary, perception and understanding, which I have always been open to share. The influence of discussion and self- creative analysis, mixed with the influences of an over -abundance of authors, has shaped many in development of self-understanding regarding the Spiritual elements of existence. But it is the creative flow of feeling one has a grasp of, which feeds that flow. And as we have reflected, there are many more in the younger generation seeking to discuss and consider such.

“Spirituality seems to have been turned 180 degrees for some.” Is that not the human way though, if it can be turned on its head, we tend to look at it upside down. It’s the nature of human understanding trying to find sameness with their Spiritual understanding.
“But in difference we find sameness, perhaps there will come a day when every Soul connects with every other but until such time as things are the way they are for a reason.” The good news is, they do we do connect naturally. It is the human component in nature which diversifies naturally. That is why difference can co-exist with sameness.

They have turned up, they are here now but are few and far between. Some have connected and moved on, some have yet to connect and some stay with us like old friends that have been around for seemingly an eternity. But if we don't recognise ourselves, can we recognise ourselves in others? Can they?
I know, it was a less considered question.

There are few Spiritual maxims that I've taken on board, if I wrote them all down they would struggle to fill a decent-length paragraph. One of those is "Find your own Truth, for there is none better. Find what truly resonates with you and take it as your own, leave the rest behind for it is not yours." The other is "Forget your mind, it can only deal with what it already knows and understands. Use your imagination, it is free and unfettered. Listen to your Heart, it will tell you right from wrong." When you put those two together you have very powerful tools.
That reflects a sound personal approach to take. Though I have more sought to harmonize with what I perceive to be a universality of reality. As the individuality of mind, tends to change with each new self-discovery, and though the nature of reality tends to be conceived in evolution, it is what remains the same, which draws my understanding to it. Like the nature which reflects that sameness underpins all difference, in all natures of experiential awareness.

"Five Steps to Kevin Bacon" was one of those silly ideas that took off a while back. The aim was to be able to connect to Kevin Bacon (the actor) in five steps or less. So someone was connected to the guy who made the sandwiches who connected to the guy who connected by delivering them to the studio caterers who connected by giving them to Kevin Bacon. Phew. While on the face it was a silly concept, probably thought up by some students in a bar one night, it showed in practical terms that nobody on the planet is really that far removed from anyone else. Sometimes we just have to find out where they dots are and what they are. I don't think they connect so far from human understanding, where the lack of connection lies is more in the recognition of the connections. What really connects us?
Recognition of connectivity in all levels of nature, in all natures, is probably more significance in importance and meaning, than most individualised concepts of self-understanding. As alone we cannot be as significant, as when me becomes we, for our reasoning for being in existence is to share experience in awareness.

We are not just here for our Journey we are here for others as well, and we are all Spirit on a human Journey. There is disconnection often with Spiritual people, in that they perceive themselves to be Spiritual while others are not. We often can't or won't see the threads of the connections that often span generations. An example would be that you're standing in a supermarket queue and you smile at someone, and because you smiled they think Life isn't so bad after all. Suicide has been averted, and three generations later their offspring finds a cure for cancer. It started with a smile but it changed the Lives of so many. Often we're not privy to see that in action but once in a while, if we look closely enough we can.

The threads you refer to, are often missed in the hurly burly of rushing routine life. While they remain the strands of a great tapestry called life and its interconnectivity. I see a human and Spiritual connectivity in your considerations, and the threads of connectivity which may reflect more in sameness than difference. Such a perception reflects knowledge based in understanding. While the trifling influences of individual Spiritual translations which separate, may be recognized as individual limitations in understanding, rather than a reflection of Spirituality.

Here's a pretty powerful exercise to try. Sit in a chair quietly, clear your mind and ask yourself one question. If you had never existed, how different would the Lives of those around you be? The Lives of your parents and siblings would change, and because of those changes how would those changes affect others in their Lives? Five Steps to Kevin Bacon, and the Wizard of Oz has its hidden meanings.
Maybe so, though, never `existed` creates a whole other meaning than never `lived`. As the threads of connectivity, almost certainly continue to exist, `between` lives as well as during them. But I respect your meaning, as the significance of any one life, is probably the most profound understanding the human race has lost, during its evolution.

All we have to do is follow the threads. For me the connections have always been there and we are all connected in some way or another and not always so ethereal after all, but often things become lost in the translation. The fun part is remembering how to speak the language.
Human genetics and human relationships have their nature in connectivity, but to me, they are inseparable from the significance of their ethereal subtle nature of interconnectivity, in recognizable experience and consideration, if not language. As the language of our ethereal nature, being more subtle in its experiential nature, more intuitive in feeling, and more Spiritual in significance, is difficult to abridge without a suitable translation into human consideration.

So yes it is often lost in translation, which is why its `reality` requires somewhat of a pioneering Spirit to even contemplate, attempting such. As `for me` the human condition in feeling thoughtfulness, connects `more` in the subtle nature of our ethereal connectivity, than is understood. As the empathy or telepathy which often forms intuitiveness, in shared connection, is naturally more ethereal in nature, than human in sense or source.

For as there is an all-pervading nature to the ethereal elements of influence in life, I would suggest rather than “not always so ethereal after all”, that there is `always` an ethereal connectivity, no matter the human perception of our own surface nature of connectivity. The fun part is `creating` a language which is less spoken and more felt, to abridge the reality of that subtle ethereal connectivity.

Namaste, Papa Bear.
Respect Greenslade

loopylucid

28-10-2013, 10:10 PM

Papabear..im trying to keep outta big discussions at the moment lol but this..

The influence of discussion and self- creative analysis, mixed with the influences of an over -abundance of authors, has shaped many in development of self-understanding regarding the Spiritual elements of existence. But it is the creative flow of feeling one has a grasp, which feeds that flow. And as we have reflected, there are many more in the younger generation seeking to discuss and consider such.

Is I feel what most of our problem is in understanding, its mostly someone elses that happens to fit or we want to..and taking it on ourselves to find ours is pretty scary, esp if we haven't yet!! lol!! But yeh big nods on that one for myself included, just trying to dis-assemble those things lately, find out what happens when I don't know whats supposed to happen!! its hard to in this age of communication , have your own experience, if its possible I want to go back to what I know, if there is anything lol, not what I think I do or in someone elses idea of I would definitely like to!
Loopy :)

Papa Bear

28-10-2013, 11:31 PM

Hi loopy,
just trying to dis-assemble those things lately, find out what happens when I don't know whats supposed to happen!! its hard to in this age of communication , have your own experience, if its possible I want to go back to what I know, if there is anything lol, not what I think I do or in someone elses idea of I would definitely like to!

“find out what happens when I don't know whats supposed to happen!! its hard to in this age of communication , have your own experience”
You identify a common problem loopy, because we all suffer from too much reaction to action. And it is maybe when we can `stop` the reaction that we may have a little self-consideration for just what we intuitively feel, in those moments. I used to define it as `popping`, likened to a moment when you `pop` and find yourself not reacting, `still` in mind and feeling, as if a bubble had just separated you from all the activity in action.

Strangely enough, what then unravels is the experience of `the observer`. And believe me, the experience of the observer, can supply more in self- understanding, than most of the reactionary experiences we are carried along with.

For myself, when I feel as you have identified, I look to be quiet in mind, long enough to realize what I intuitively feel. A kind of self-pop lol because then I am `listening` to myself, rather than what can be mental chatter. And the most enjoyable aspect of doing such, is I never know what I am going to `feel`, until I feel it. It`s reflecting back from the mirror of my heart, I just have to observe the `feeling`.

Every element of life, even the universe in which it evolves, is just waiting for one to be `the observer`, as it will reflect your part in its reasoning. “if its possible I want to go back to what I know, “ Then consider in an uninterrupted way, remembering what you know, and start from there. Let go of all the rest, and everything may become new again, new discoveries of self-in-experience, as opposed to, what others may suggest is what one should feel. Follow your heart and you will not go wrong. Even forget these, my words, for they only reflect what you already know. :smile:

Greenslade

29-10-2013, 11:32 AM

Hi Papa Bear

“From personal observation it seems that there is Spirituality and there is 'real Life, and never the twain shall meet.”
From personal experience, I experience the reverse, as my Spirituality has completely integrated into the routine flow of my `real life`. And that is why I have a more Spiritualistic vocabulary, perception and understanding, which I have always been open to share. The influence of discussion and self- creative analysis, mixed with the influences of an over -abundance of authors, has shaped many in development of self-understanding regarding the Spiritual elements of existence. But it is the creative flow of feeling one has a grasp of, which feeds that flow. And as we have reflected, there are many more in the younger generation seeking to discuss and consider such.
My apologies, I should have been more clear. I should have said that it's my observation of how others are expressing their Spirituality, at least to my perception. Strangely I find myself having two perspectives at the same time, in that I can have understanding of how one would choose to 'separate' their Spirituality from their 'real Life'. All Paths are valid, as has been said. "Are we dancers, or are we human?" Or are we human dancers?

Being honest I have difficulty separating out what is Spiritual and what isn't. For most of my Life I have sought answers for my experiences and have found them in Spirituality. While having the experiences the human element seems to be predominant while retrospect finds Spiritual answers or reasons, the lines tend to blur. I was going to say the only difference is in the taking of a side-step in perspective but even that doesn't seem to be the case, not if there is no difference between the human and the Spiritual. At the moment I'm in a strange space, a place that is neither here nor there. Life was simpler when there was a here and a there, but simply experiencing and exploring brings its own rewards. I hear the words "Remember you're a Womble" ringing though my head, reminding me to follow my own true nature.

“Spirituality seems to have been turned 180 degrees for some.” Is that not the human way though, if it can be turned on its head, we tend to look at it upside down. It’s the nature of human understanding trying to find sameness with their Spiritual understanding.
“But in difference we find sameness, perhaps there will come a day when every Soul connects with every other but until such time as things are the way they are for a reason.” The good news is, they do we do connect naturally. It is the human component in nature which diversifies naturally. That is why difference can co-exist with sameness.
And perhaps a major point of this whole experience, in that humans can be and often want to be individual and look at the Universe in a different way, yet at the same time there's a need to be part of the 'collective'. Separation and unity dance around each other creating the catalytic energy, as does sameness and difference.

Yes we do connect naturally, in one perspective it would be difficult not to. In the perspective of disconnection we can diversify and create individuality and difference, but the underlying thread that bids us all is unity and sameness. They give each other existence.

That reflects a sound personal approach to take. Though I have more sought to harmonize with what I perceive to be a universality of reality. As the individuality of mind, tends to change with each new self-discovery, and though the nature of reality tends to be conceived in evolution, it is what remains the same, which draws my understanding to it. Like the nature which reflects that sameness underpins all difference, in all natures of experiential awareness.
Thank you, maybe I'm not a total headcase after all :-)
One of the questions I asked even before 'becoming Spiritual is "Who Am I?" The answer to that one seems to be constantly shifting and has taken a paradigm shift yet again, meeting myself again for the first time. But that is who and what I Am. Universality of reality had never crossed my mind and in the early days seemed to be one of those stock phrases the airy-fairy Spiritual people came out with. Sometimes difference causes sameness though. Interaction and connections have always been a large part of this Journey and experiencing it in the 'real world' and that brings a universality of reality into focus. It seems that the more we walk away from each other the more we walk together. Sometimes difference underpins sameness. Like the letting go of objective vs subjective I find myself letting go of sameness and difference being honest.

Recognition of connectivity in all levels of nature, in all natures, is probably more significance in importance and meaning, than most individualised concepts of self-understanding. As alone we cannot be as significant, as when me becomes we, for our reasoning for being in existence is to share experience in awareness.
Indeed, and this has been something that I've always felt throughout my Life in so many ways and especially now. Once there was 'little old me', then 'little old me' discovered something inside, following the links and connections both became so much more. How those related to the outside world became a voyage of discovery and to what it is today, a blurring of the lines where certain words are becoming meaningless. Your words have so much meaning at the moment because they very much reflect what I and a few others are experiencing right now. The Journey there is to discover how that 'I' becomes 'we' and what significance that has. The 'I' reflecting the 'we' creating the significance that recreates the 'I' that recreates the 'we', and the circle becomes the spiral.

The threads you refer to, are often missed in the hurly burly of rushing routine life. While they remain the strands of a great tapestry called life and its interconnectivity. I see a human and Spiritual connectivity in your considerations, and the threads of connectivity which may reflect more in sameness than difference. Such a perception reflects knowledge based in understanding. While the trifling influences of individual Spiritual translations which separate, may be recognized as individual limitations in understanding, rather than a reflection of Spirituality.
I don't see them as limitations in understanding. This seems to be a day for things dancing around each other, while sameness and difference have taken to the dance floor as has limitations of understanding. One of my maxims is "Look behind the mask." What I mean by that is that for all human experience there are underlying Spiritual reasons. While there are what we may call limitations in understanding they are there for a reason, perhaps the limits are there for us to recognise and make the choice to either accept or rise above them. I watched a Bashar clip on YouTube, and in it he said that we are not here to find the meaning of Life, our job is to give Life meaning. That resonated with me and completely changed the paradigm. Limitations give freedom from limitations meaning, which in turn gives limitations meaning.

Maybe so, though, never `existed` creates a whole other meaning than never `lived`. As the threads of connectivity, almost certainly continue to exist, `between` lives as well as during them. But I respect your meaning, as the significance of any one life, is probably the most profound understanding the human race has lost, during its evolution.
Perhaps this is a continuation of looking behind the mask and giving meaning to things but on a more Universal level. I have the words to a children's rhyme from the movie Quatermass running through my head with this one. "Huffity puffity Ringstone Round. If you've never been lost then you've never been found." Perhaps the reason it's been lost is so that the human race can find it again, rediscovering it for the first time and remembering it for the first time. That's one concept that can either sound like so much sense or so much nonsense.

Human genetics and human relationships have their nature in connectivity, but to me, they are inseparable from the significance of their ethereal subtle nature of interconnectivity, in recognizable experience and consideration, if not language. As the language of our ethereal nature, being more subtle in its experiential nature, more intuitive in feeling, and more Spiritual in significance, is difficult to abridge without a suitable translation into human consideration.

So yes it is often lost in translation, which is why its `reality` requires somewhat of a pioneering Spirit to even contemplate, attempting such. As `for me` the human condition in feeling thoughtfulness, connects `more` in the subtle nature of our ethereal connectivity, than is understood. As the empathy or telepathy which often forms intuitiveness, in shared connection, is naturally more ethereal in nature, than human in sense or source.

For as there is an all-pervading nature to the ethereal elements of influence in life, I would suggest rather than “not always so ethereal after all”, that there is `always` an ethereal connectivity, no matter the human perception of our own surface nature of connectivity. The fun part is `creating` a language which is less spoken and more felt, to abridge the reality of that subtle ethereal connectivity.
Again I'm finding difficulty in separating this and that, the ethereal from the human. That isn't meant as a disagreement though, more of a reflection and expression. Often there are two very different perspectives existing in the same space within my consciousness, but are they different perspectives or are they aspects of my consciousness? This is my Journey to self. The intuitive feeling is that Spiritual and human are one and the same and that the only differences are the ones we choose to make. Even connections seem to blur in favour of something from a different understanding, that connections are a product of the separation that seems to be blurring. Perhaps I am a reflection of the Universe, perhaps the Universe is a reflection of me and perhaps there are no reflections after all. Note to self: be careful of that god fixation.

Respect Greenslade
Are we talking to ourself? :redface:

Papa Bear

30-10-2013, 06:02 PM

Hi Greenslade,
My apologies, I should have been more clear. I should have said that it's my observation of how others are expressing their Spirituality, at least to my perception. Strangely I find myself having two perspectives at the same time, in that I can have understanding of how one would choose to 'separate' their Spirituality from their 'real Life'. All Paths are valid, as has been said. "Are we dancers, or are we human?" Or are we human dancers?
When self-reflection can produce “I find myself having two perspectives at the same time” what becomes interesting is `where` those two perspectives are being observed from, and `who` the perspectives reflect. For when they are both self-reflections, then we may consider two natural elements of being human and being `more`, as each have their own natures of experiential awareness of interconnectivity with life. One, must dominate in nature by prioritizing the practicalities of routine material life. The other, may reflect more than the materiality of prioritization.

While both have their own natural flows for what they prioritize. `Where`, self may `observe` both from, is what I have referred to as a, `third party position of observation`. Which is created when the wisdom of understanding both perspectives in their difference and sameness, (because both are `you`) empowers self-reflection of both from `where` they meet in sameness. And that position of observational understanding is neither from one or the other, but the evolved wisdom of understanding both. From such understanding may come one perspective of how two can become one, naturally sharing the `same` flow in life, and there is wisdom in such an understanding.

Being honest I have difficulty separating out what is Spiritual and what isn't. For most of my Life I have sought answers for my experiences and have found them in Spirituality. While having the experiences the human element seems to be predominant while retrospect finds Spiritual answers or reasons, the lines tend to blur. I was going to say the only difference is in the taking of a side-step in perspective but even that doesn't seem to be the case, not if there is no difference between the human and the Spiritual. At the moment I'm in a strange space, a place that is neither here nor there. Life was simpler when there was a here and a there, but simply experiencing and exploring brings its own rewards. I hear the words "Remember you're a Womble" ringing though my head, reminding me to follow my own true nature.
“the lines tend to blur” when they disappear, both perspectives become one. “I was going to say the only difference is in the taking of a side-step in perspective but even that doesn't seem to be the case” I would suggest looking at that again, as it may identify a `third party position of observation`, which is not `another` self, just a new position from which to understand the difference, to realize the sameness. As such a position of observation may be created from understanding both perspectives in their natural essence of why they are, and `where` they meet in sameness. “not if there is no difference between the human and the Spiritual.” Then what is the difference which produces two perspectives?

“At the moment I'm in a strange space, a place that is neither here nor there.” From where you are, you can observe them both, rather than being either. “Life was simpler when there was a here and a there, but simply experiencing and exploring brings its own rewards.” Like realizing you are observing from both here and there at the same time. “reminding me to follow my own true nature” Maybe it is encouraging your observation of your own true nature, in both perspectives, for they reflect one true nature.

And perhaps a major point of this whole experience, in that humans can be and often want to be individual and look at the Universe in a different way, yet at the same time there's a need to be part of the 'collective'. Separation and unity dance around each other creating the catalytic energy, as does sameness and difference.

Yes we do connect naturally, in one perspective it would be difficult not to. In the perspective of disconnection we can diversify and create individuality and difference, but the underlying thread that bids us all is unity and sameness. They give each other existence.
That is a third party position of observation, when it is self-reflective, two perspectives of self can merge and in unity reflect one existence observing, external connectivity.

One of the questions I asked even before 'becoming Spiritual is "Who Am I?" The answer to that one seems to be constantly shifting and has taken a paradigm shift yet again, meeting myself again for the first time. But that is who and what I Am.
Self-reflection can eventually clarify who and what I am, so `one` may observe everything else, from a third party position of observation. And that is just as interesting as self-reflection from such a neutral, non-reactive position of observation.

Universality of reality had never crossed my mind and in the early days seemed to be one of those stock phrases the airy-fairy Spiritual people came out with. Sometimes difference causes sameness though. Interaction and connections have always been a large part of this Journey and experiencing it in the 'real world' and that brings a universality of reality into focus. It seems that the more we walk away from each other the more we walk together. Sometimes difference underpins sameness. Like the letting go of objective vs subjective I find myself letting go of sameness and difference being honest.
Apologies Greenslade if I seem to repeat myself; but that is also a third party position of observation. As from that perspective, everything different on the surface becomes the same beneath that surface, for then naturally, all terms of separation become redundant. I hope you have observed your own expressions, for in your words is a reflection of what I feel you seem to feel you are missing. But how can you be, as you have reflected the wisdom of self-in-understanding, in your expressed observations.

Indeed, and this has been something that I've always felt throughout my Life in so many ways and especially now. Once there was 'little old me', then 'little old me' discovered something inside, following the links and connections both became so much more. How those related to the outside world became a voyage of discovery and to what it is today, a blurring of the lines where certain words are becoming meaningless. Your words have so much meaning at the moment because they very much reflect what I and a few others are experiencing right now. The Journey there is to discover how that 'I' becomes 'we' and what significance that has. The 'I' reflecting the 'we' creating the significance that recreates the 'I' that recreates the 'we', and the circle becomes the spiral.
“Your words have so much meaning at the moment because they very much reflect what I and a few others are experiencing right now.” I am humbled and enlivened at such a possibility, as it reflects the meaning of what my heart desired when coming to the forum. Thank you for inspiring my motivations.

“The Journey there is to discover how that 'I' becomes 'we' and what significance that has. The 'I' reflecting the 'we' creating the significance that recreates the 'I' that recreates the 'we', and the circle becomes the spiral.” In my journey `here`, what `we` can be, has intuitively left `I` to complain it has little air time lol. The significance of `we` is `shared` Love. For it puts self-love into the shade, smiling knowingly. We are the creators of each -others happiness, laughter, joy, compassion, and an endless array of blissful considerations, in ways we `cannot` give ourselves. It is the nature of Spiritual connectivity in `all` natures of shared experience in awareness. As it is the Spirit in shared Spirituality. We call it love, and the many elements, which add up to what love is, `here`. While `there` we are Spirit, I am you and you are me, `We are that We are`.

I don't see them as limitations in understanding. This seems to be a day for things dancing around each other, while sameness and difference have taken to the dance floor as has limitations of understanding. One of my maxims is "Look behind the mask." What I mean by that is that for all human experience there are underlying Spiritual reasons. While there are what we may call limitations in understanding they are there for a reason, perhaps the limits are there for us to recognise and make the choice to either accept or rise above them.
Human nature create those limitations naturally, as there is Spiritual reasons for human experience, there is also human natures reasons. Understanding them within each nature, can harmonize how they become `one` nature in shared expression. A human being must be respected in life, especially by that human being. For no Spirit criticises any natural limitation of its human expression, for that is what the Spirit chose to experience. Limitations are only observed as such, by those who experience the awareness of their own Spirituality. While that Spiritual self-in-awareness, should be smiling within the embrace of the beauty, unlimited creative ` human` nature reflects. It`s that third party position of observation again.

I watched a Bashar clip on YouTube, and in it he said that we are not here to find the meaning of Life, our job is to give Life meaning. That resonated with me and completely changed the paradigm. Limitations give freedom from limitations meaning, which in turn gives limitations meaning.
Been there done that recently, another new consideration, for my third party position of observation. And in consideration I reflect, that it matters not `who` reflects insightfulness, only `who` shares in the reflection. As your own free expressions in understanding, may reflect, a similar reaction in one who shares your considerations. For who is open to “That resonated with me and completely changed the paradigm.” Will surely experience it, it`s just a question of `who` by example, may share that reflection with them.

Perhaps this is a continuation of looking behind the mask and giving meaning to things but on a more Universal level. I have the words to a children's rhyme from the movie Quatermass running through my head with this one. "Huffity puffity Ringstone Round. If you've never been lost then you've never been found." Perhaps the reason it's been lost is so that the human race can find it again, rediscovering it for the first time and remembering it for the first time. That's one concept that can either sound like so much sense or so much nonsense.
Human nature can be self-destructive, but it can also be self-creative, so when that which has been lost, can, through our creative nature, become found. Then the wisdom within the subtle meaning becomes more a reflection of insightful sensitivity, rather than no-sense.

Again I'm finding difficulty in separating this and that, the ethereal from the human. That isn't meant as a disagreement though, more of a reflection and expression. Often there are two very different perspectives existing in the same space within my consciousness, but are they different perspectives or are they aspects of my consciousness?
Personally, as a rule, I consider that if there are different `natures` then they are entitled to be recognized, to be understood within their independent nature. For if their joined understanding `creates` a third party position of observation, `where` they meet in interconnectivity. Then human and ethereal difference in nature may dissolve into sameness. As within those observations, the nature of awareness of self-in-existence may be understood, in the currents and flows of abridging natures. For then, the understanding becomes less a consideration of mindfulness, and more a `go with the intuitive flow`.

This is my Journey to self. The intuitive feeling is that Spiritual and human are one and the same and that the only differences are the ones we choose to make. Even connections seem to blur in favour of something from a different understanding, that connections are a product of the separation that seems to be blurring. Perhaps I am a reflection of the Universe, perhaps the Universe is a reflection of me and perhaps there are no reflections after all. Note to self: be careful of that god fixation.
You give me an opportunity to share one of my favourite observations. In the natural evolution of the manifest universe, through billions of years, the source elements of this universe shaped into creation, every variation of possibility in energy connectivity. Galaxies, stars, planets formed, even life took form. But the greatest achievement of that evolution was the birth in sentient mindful awareness, of the human being. For that human being became the universe reflecting an awareness of its self in existence. Through the observational awareness of a tiny little human being, the universe smiles at itself and what it has become.

“The intuitive feeling is that Spiritual and human are one and the same and that the only differences are the ones we choose to make.” The beauty of intuition is that it `always` highlights choice, as choice can offer an intuitive feeling of what is, if we but choose to accept what our intuition may reflect.

Are we talking to ourself?
In the most natural creative ways, YES we are. I refer to it as shared self-reflection, for even that may create a third party position of observation. As what we express may be self-reflected, as objectively in perception as those who we share it with. And like all difference, when it can be observed from either one position of observation or the other, it may produce shared awareness of `where` they meet in connectivity.

For this is what I feel we are doing right now, observing and listening to each other, taking to ourselves. Is it not beautiful to share self-reflections? As it enlivens me even more, to consider we do so in an `ETHER-net` which allows energy connections on the surface, only in words. While the `meanings` in the natural energies of shared self-reflection in expression, connects in a greater more subtle way, more akin to the actual ethereal resonance flows, understood in human nature, as harmonized shared feelings. How cool is that, for a third party position of observation.

Greenslade my apologies if I have over-elaborated, in length, structure or presentation, I just felt drawn express in a manner befitting your openness in expression and consideration. Which is why, I chose to do it in a manner more akin to an on-going conversation.

loopylucid

30-10-2013, 07:11 PM

I don't ever choose to forget your words papa cause there offered as advice and not facts, you talk to me and not generically also which I like! contrary to popular status lol :)
Your threads help me explore a lot and I appreciate that immensely, ive got a lot to learn but im feeling really kinda happy to start again, its changed from disappointment of all ive realised isn't the case, to the wonder and joy of all that could be :)
Hugs to you and your part in that, aware or not lol:)
Loopy :)

Hi loopy,

“find out what happens when I don't know whats supposed to happen!! its hard to in this age of communication , have your own experience”
You identify a common problem loopy, because we all suffer from too much reaction to action. And it is maybe when we can `stop` the reaction that we may have a little self-consideration for just what we intuitively feel, in those moments. I used to define it as `popping`, likened to a moment when you `pop` and find yourself not reacting, `still` in mind and feeling, as if a bubble had just separated you from all the activity in action.

Strangely enough, what then unravels is the experience of `the observer`. And believe me, the experience of the observer, can supply more in self- understanding, than most of the reactionary experiences we are carried along with.

For myself, when I feel as you have identified, I look to be quiet in mind, long enough to realize what I intuitively feel. A kind of self-pop lol because then I am `listening` to myself, rather than what can be mental chatter. And the most enjoyable aspect of doing such, is I never know what I am going to `feel`, until I feel it. It`s reflecting back from the mirror of my heart, I just have to observe the `feeling`.

Every element of life, even the universe in which it evolves, is just waiting for one to be `the observer`, as it will reflect your part in its reasoning. “if its possible I want to go back to what I know, “ Then consider in an uninterrupted way, remembering what you know, and start from there. Let go of all the rest, and everything may become new again, new discoveries of self-in-experience, as opposed to, what others may suggest is what one should feel. Follow your heart and you will not go wrong. Even forget these, my words, for they only reflect what you already know. :smile:

Papa Bear

01-11-2013, 11:07 PM

I don't ever choose to forget your words papa cause there offered as advice and not facts, you talk to me and not generically also which I like! contrary to popular status lol :)
Your threads help me explore a lot and I appreciate that immensely, ive got a lot to learn but im feeling really kinda happy to start again, its changed from disappointment of all ive realised isn't the case, to the wonder and joy of all that could be :)
Hugs to you and your part in that, aware or not lol:)
Loopy :)
“you talk to me and not generically also which I like!” When two different, share sameness in understanding, they should reflect each other within that shared understanding? “contrary to popular status lol” I have had a tendency to wander into leading in weaker moments lol, but Daz is there to bring me back to myself lol. While Silent, Whispers to earth me when I flow to far from where I am. Lol

“Your threads help me explore a lot and I appreciate that immensely” I hope that is as much, as the joy your reflection brings to me. As this expression; “ive got a lot to learn but im feeling really kinda happy to start again, its changed from disappointment of all ive realised isn't the case, to the wonder and joy of all that could be” lifts the Spirit in me and enlivens my enthusiasm for what awaits your arrival. For you will recognize it, as `more` of you, and I can`t help but smile considering what it will bring to your understanding. “Hugs to you and your part in that, aware or not lol” Shared awareness is manifest in human nature in the natural beauty of two sharing the same hug lol.

Nothing else to add except a little hug to you loopy: :hug2:

Greenslade

03-11-2013, 02:33 PM

Hi Greenslade,

When self-reflection can produce “I find myself having two perspectives at the same time” what becomes interesting is `where` those two perspectives are being observed from, and `who` the perspectives reflect. For when they are both self-reflections, then we may consider two natural elements of being human and being `more`, as each have their own natures of experiential awareness of interconnectivity with life. One, must dominate in nature by prioritizing the practicalities of routine material life. The other, may reflect more than the materiality of prioritization.

While both have their own natural flows for what they prioritize. `Where`, self may `observe` both from, is what I have referred to as a, `third party position of observation`. Which is created when the wisdom of understanding both perspectives in their difference and sameness, (because both are `you`) empowers self-reflection of both from `where` they meet in sameness. And that position of observational understanding is neither from one or the other, but the evolved wisdom of understanding both. From such understanding may come one perspective of how two can become one, naturally sharing the `same` flow in life, and there is wisdom in such an understanding.
“the lines tend to blur” when they disappear, both perspectives become one. “I was going to say the only difference is in the taking of a side-step in perspective but even that doesn't seem to be the case” I would suggest looking at that again, as it may identify a `third party position of observation`, which is not `another` self, just a new position from which to understand the difference, to realize the sameness. As such a position of observation may be created from understanding both perspectives in their natural essence of why they are, and `where` they meet in sameness. “not if there is no difference between the human and the Spiritual.” Then what is the difference which produces two perspectives?

“At the moment I'm in a strange space, a place that is neither here nor there.” From where you are, you can observe them both, rather than being either. “Life was simpler when there was a here and a there, but simply experiencing and exploring brings its own rewards.” Like realizing you are observing from both here and there at the same time. “reminding me to follow my own true nature” Maybe it is encouraging your observation of your own true nature, in both perspectives, for they reflect one true nature.

That is a third party position of observation, when it is self-reflective, two perspectives of self can merge and in unity reflect one existence observing, external connectivity.

Self-reflection can eventually clarify who and what I am, so `one` may observe everything else, from a third party position of observation. And that is just as interesting as self-reflection from such a neutral, non-reactive position of observation.

Apologies Greenslade if I seem to repeat myself; but that is also a third party position of observation. As from that perspective, everything different on the surface becomes the same beneath that surface, for then naturally, all terms of separation become redundant. I hope you have observed your own expressions, for in your words is a reflection of what I feel you seem to feel you are missing. But how can you be, as you have reflected the wisdom of self-in-understanding, in your expressed observations.
No need to apologise, Papa Bear. For most of my Life I've felt as though there has been two people ''in here', one human and one Spirit. While the human makes the Journey the Spirit also has a Journey of his own, separate yet inhabiting the same space, and most of my LIfe has been a Journey to Self, where the human self is walking a path to Spiritual self. It's a strange feeling sometimes and has brought some wonderment sometimes. Gestalt theory become a reality as the puzzle begins to fit together and a wider puzzle seems to take shape, not in individual pieces but in whole groups of pieces that make up an individual. There is something missing though but it's all in the timing and the timing is not yet - at least in human terms. But all is as it should be. While I'm not going into a long reply over what you have said before, frankly there aren't the words to explain it in a way that would do them any real justice other than lip service. Call your words validation, conformation or anything else you'd like to chose, but they hit the nail right on the head. They also bring another mystery in that there other reflections that, for the moment, I can't quite put my finger on. Once upon a time perhaps they would be easily explained but not so much in your case, but then if 'We Are One then perhaps this is a part of bringing that into more of a reality not just in the way we can affect each other in the interaction but also in 'practical terms' at quite a profound level. Which leads me onto....

“Your words have so much meaning at the moment because they very much reflect what I and a few others are experiencing right now.” I am humbled and enlivened at such a possibility, as it reflects the meaning of what my heart desired when coming to the forum. Thank you for inspiring my motivations.
I would like to thank you too but somehow thanks seem to be poor substitutes for what is happening here. Often our actions ripple out in ways we don't understand in the moment, sometimes something as simple as a smile in a supermarket queue can be the catalyst for something that spans generations. This is a process I need to understand, not just what's happening 'inside' but how the interaction can affect that because it will affect what has yet to come. The wheels of the Universe turn and once in a while synchronicity takes hold and outs those wheels into alignment, but they are turning. This will ripple out.

“The Journey there is to discover how that 'I' becomes 'we' and what significance that has. The 'I' reflecting the 'we' creating the significance that recreates the 'I' that recreates the 'we', and the circle becomes the spiral.” In my journey `here`, what `we` can be, has intuitively left `I` to complain it has little air time lol. The significance of `we` is `shared` Love. For it puts self-love into the shade, smiling knowingly. We are the creators of each -others happiness, laughter, joy, compassion, and an endless array of blissful considerations, in ways we `cannot` give ourselves. It is the nature of Spiritual connectivity in `all` natures of shared experience in awareness. As it is the Spirit in shared Spirituality. We call it love, and the many elements, which add up to what love is, `here`. While `there` we are Spirit, I am you and you are me, `We are that We are`. That one is very obvious at the moment, played out not just in this thread but how others are living their Lives at the moment and doing what they need to do until such time as they can do what they want to do.

Human nature create those limitations naturally, as there is Spiritual reasons for human experience, there is also human natures reasons. Understanding them within each nature, can harmonize how they become `one` nature in shared expression. A human being must be respected in life, especially by that human being. For no Spirit criticises any natural limitation of its human expression, for that is what the Spirit chose to experience. Limitations are only observed as such, by those who experience the awareness of their own Spirituality. While that Spiritual self-in-awareness, should be smiling within the embrace of the beauty, unlimited creative ` human` nature reflects. It`s that third party position of observation again. Sometimes we don't give ourselves - and others - enough credit for the Paths we have chosen to take. Often I see people struggling with their Spirituality and thinking themselves as being 'not worthy' somehow because they don't understand what they are going through and why. Thankfully things are changing on these boards but in the past I've seen those that look down on others because of their lack of understanding. Enlightenment seemed to be what some told others they were. Something that was given to me a long time ago by wise people that helped in the faltering - "Honour your own Path".

Been there done that recently, another new consideration, for my third party position of observation. And in consideration I reflect, that it matters not `who` reflects insightfulness, only `who` shares in the reflection. As your own free expressions in understanding, may reflect, a similar reaction in one who shares your considerations. For who is open to “That resonated with me and completely changed the paradigm.” Will surely experience it, it`s just a question of `who` by example, may share that reflection with them. Schizophrenic Spirit. Seemingly meaningless and flippant phrases come and go in my head that make me smile, but under the surface they have very different meanings. And before someone jumps in and shoots me for that phrase no disrespect is intended, I have worked with people with mental health issues and was told that I was schizophrenic myself. Luckily further investigation proved otherwise. But it seems an appropriate term under the circumstances, in that first party and third party are all one and the same and it is only through a side-step of perspective that one becomes the other, or both. Gestalt aspects seem to be working here very well, in that there is the human and there is the Spirit, and while never the twain shall meet there is unity in the separation and vice versa, the interaction of the two bringing about yet another perspective of the interaction. That then reflects out into the Universe like a fractal, the microcosm within the macrocosm. Even that though becomes little more than a choice of perspective, but it is seeing that in 'real Life' within the context of unity vs separation.

Human nature can be self-destructive, but it can also be self-creative, so when that which has been lost, can, through our creative nature, become found. Then the wisdom within the subtle meaning becomes more a reflection of insightful sensitivity, rather than no-sense.

Personally, as a rule, I consider that if there are different `natures` then they are entitled to be recognized, to be understood within their independent nature. For if their joined understanding `creates` a third party position of observation, `where` they meet in interconnectivity. Then human and ethereal difference in nature may dissolve into sameness. As within those observations, the nature of awareness of self-in-existence may be understood, in the currents and flows of abridging natures. For then, the understanding becomes less a consideration of mindfulness, and more a `go with the intuitive flow`. The story goes that once upon a time there was a single consciousness, all alone in the night. That consciousness changed the Universe forever when it asked the question "Who Am I?" To answer that question it split itself into two so that it could look at itself, and in that moment duality and separation were born. Here we are today. It's quite a simple little ditty but explains so much, it becomes the seed from which much understanding grows. There is a place for 'this', a place for 'that' and a place for 'those' - even within ourselves. If ever there was meaning in the words 'We Are the Universe' those are they. We tend to split ourselves up into two, the Spiritual and the human and sometimes never the twain shall meet. But they have already met, we just need to create the space for that to be realised. In the tale of the Universe splitting itself up my intuition has made a place for your third party, one that sees one, the other and both at the same time.

You give me an opportunity to share one of my favourite observations. In the natural evolution of the manifest universe, through billions of years, the source elements of this universe shaped into creation, every variation of possibility in energy connectivity. Galaxies, stars, planets formed, even life took form. But the greatest achievement of that evolution was the birth in sentient mindful awareness, of the human being. For that human being became the universe reflecting an awareness of its self in existence. Through the observational awareness of a tiny little human being, the universe smiles at itself and what it has become.

“The intuitive feeling is that Spiritual and human are one and the same and that the only differences are the ones we choose to make.” The beauty of intuition is that it `always` highlights choice, as choice can offer an intuitive feeling of what is, if we but choose to accept what our intuition may reflect. And in that there seems to be much more than meets the eye in the interaction - as always and in all ways. It would be so easy to come out with words that would sound like a god complex, however in the understanding of the Universe smiling at itself... The human has become less tiny little, like the scene from 2001 A Space Odyssey where Dave Bowman has made his trip from earth via the monolith and into the room where he's waiting to die, to become the StarChild. Yet there is a 'force' behind that which built the mechanisms for him to be come that. The StarChild being much further from the human yet not, the circles of creation spiralling out so that we can become what we have already been once again. Meeting ourselves for the first time.

In the most natural creative ways, YES we are. I refer to it as shared self-reflection, for even that may create a third party position of observation. As what we express may be self-reflected, as objectively in perception as those who we share it with. And like all difference, when it can be observed from either one position of observation or the other, it may produce shared awareness of `where` they meet in connectivity.

For this is what I feel we are doing right now, observing and listening to each other, taking to ourselves. Is it not beautiful to share self-reflections? As it enlivens me even more, to consider we do so in an `ETHER-net` which allows energy connections on the surface, only in words. While the `meanings` in the natural energies of shared self-reflection in expression, connects in a greater more subtle way, more akin to the actual ethereal resonance flows, understood in human nature, as harmonized shared feelings. How cool is that, for a third party position of observation. Once again I find myself letting go of things that have served for a long time - connections being one of them. I have explored them in so many ways on so many levels with so many people and at the time they certainly helped. That was a time though when the lines of separation were there and they had their own reasons for existence or perspective. But yet again in the blurring of the lines of separation connections seem to blur in the space where this and that becomes both this and that. Still the human 'reality check' is there, the one that finds some things difficult to accept but the Universe has infinite patience and brings people to reinforce that. There will come a time when even that will blur and it won't matter about who is smiling at who. It is the Journey of rising back through the levels, the turning point if you like. In a time before time the single consciousness split itself into two and here we are today, walking back up through the levels of separation that were created by choice. Not just in the saying of the words "Universe become manifest" but understanding the process of how and why.

Greenslade my apologies if I have over-elaborated, in length, structure or presentation, I just felt drawn express in a manner befitting your openness in expression and consideration. Which is why, I chose to do it in a manner more akin to an on-going conversation. Absolutely no need to apologise and I do appreciate you interacting with me in this way. I can't begin to tell you of the insights it has given me, the understanding. This conversation is very much the right thing at the right time on so many levels. You are being key in creating something, what I don't know at the moment but that time will come.

Greenslade

03-11-2013, 02:52 PM

My apologies if the above post seems a little disjointed, in the process of writing 'real Life' interjected and I lost the train of thought for a while. It became difficult to sort out who said what. OK Universe, I'm listening and taking notice :-)

Mr Interesting

03-11-2013, 06:57 PM

I have this real world default going on where I can only take subjectivity so far before I have to start listening to the objects. Recently I've been playing with transformers, you know the wire wound things, as I'm trying to make a few things which'll increase my need to live from almost no money and yet still have the tools I want to play with.

So whilst the real world technology and accrued wisdom of transformers is quite daunting and jargon filled I remember that the originators just had to go out and do stuff and apply the accumulating jargon afterwards to try and explain what was happening.

And this is me running around in circles not getting anywhere but with an ear to the whisperings of the stuff itself, the subjective flow of data swirls and knots, but somehow the objects themselves have a magic of sorts I can listen for. Then Ocamm's razor suddenly is remembered as for some reason I then know exactly what to do and not only does it work but it works as I hoped it might.

Maybe it's within the nature of the objects, the transformers, where high potential and low current within a substance of almost no resistivity is applied as a flux within the confines of the parent metal of the planet, iron, and then passed into another set of non resistivity with a change in potential and current flow... but the current can only flow if there is a load.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1426706_10151983807404288_1009530241_n.jpg
And these transformers seem to mirror the path of knowledge, that the primary is high potential and low current, and the secondary is our lives in a body, both copper and wound about the iron laminations and looking for the load... even being the load.

Papa Bear

04-11-2013, 10:57 PM

Hi Greenslade,
“Call your words validation, conformation or anything else you'd like to chose, but they hit the nail right on the head.” The value of a confirmation is priceless, so I am more than happy to have provided a glimpse of such. “They also bring another mystery in that there other reflections that, for the moment, I can't quite put my finger on. Once upon a time perhaps they would be easily explained but not so much in your case,” When or if our position of observation changes, then everything we `observe` may reflect a new understanding, maybe not as readily understandable as in previous observations, but exciting in their possibilities. “but then if 'We Are One then perhaps this is a part of bringing that into more of a reality not just in the way we can affect each other in the interaction but also in 'practical terms' at quite a profound level.” The only limitations that exist are the ones we place upon ourselves. And though this may be considered blah, blah, blah, heard it seen it done it reflection. On closer scrutiny realizing such, can lead to considerations of what may change, if we pondered on what if limitations were discarded. What then in self and shared awareness?

I would like to thank you too but somehow thanks seem to be poor substitutes for what is happening here. Often our actions ripple out in ways we don't understand in the moment, sometimes something as simple as a smile in a supermarket queue can be the catalyst for something that spans generations. This is a process I need to understand, not just what's happening 'inside' but how the interaction can affect that because it will affect what has yet to come. The wheels of the Universe turn and once in a while synchronicity takes hold and outs those wheels into alignment, but they are turning. This will ripple out.
Gratitude is a shared smile in shared recognition of shared realisation, the smile is enough. The universe will be as it is, without our understanding of it. It is within self-understanding that we may synchronize with each other, and produces ripples of effect beyond ourselves. “This is a process I need to understand, not just what's happening 'inside' but how the interaction can affect that because it will affect what has yet to come.” You already have an understanding of what you define, but it may be external in perspective. While what you now seek to understand, is the inner processes and their effect to a cause less predictable. For it may highlight, how time itself may be perceived from a third party position of observation.

If the present moment is A in an alphabet, because A exists, Z may come into observation. Then the entire evolved alphabet may become known, before it has evolved into experience of the now. This position of observation may present itself, when the consequences of that A, reflect the beginning of a thing, which has a discernible Z, understanding `both` from where their difference harmonize in a `certainty` of sameness combined, manifests every letter in between them both. So what `will be` in a future time may be realized, in the moment A is recognized.

"Honour your own Path" is an honourable self-respectful consideration, more natural than chosen. `Honouring everyone’s Path` is the nature of Spiritual understanding, and the source of wisdom, in human terms of understanding. As what has passed with time, is not what `Is` within the moment I/you/we choose what we shall share. And as `we` may evolve beyond defensive judgements of each other, we may also learn how we may do the same with any other, who struggles to find self-peace in their understanding.

“in that first party and third party are all one and the same and it is only through a side-step of perspective that one becomes the other, or both.” Duality in opposition presents two perspectives either or both may be individually understood to be in opposition. While a third party observation which may be naturally created, from a position of understanding `where` they both meet in shared sameness. May produce more in understanding of the nature their difference, more significantly, why in essence they evolved from a shared sameness. Call it the `primal cause` the 0 before 1, from which all difference emerged from sameness. Understanding the primal reasoning of a thing reflects the wisdom of its source cause, to understand its meaning in difference.

“in that there is the human and there is the Spirit, and while never the twain shall meet there is unity in the separation and vice versa, the interaction of the two bringing about yet another perspective of the interaction.” And it is `that` perspective which may be understood to be third party position of observation. What, where, is that unity, in actuality, not philosophy or metaphysical concept, but `practically` in experiential awareness, what, where is it.

This to me has been a `core` realization of my Spiritual development, to realize and reflect in sharing, that `actuality` in practicality. In the reflective observations of `that`, third party position of observation, where and how, human nature and Spiritual nature, may `meet` in sameness. For that position of observation reflects where and how a human being may `know` the Spirit who expressed them into being.

“Even that though becomes little more than a choice of perspective, but it is seeing that in 'real Life' within the context of unity vs separation” Separation is a human concept of individuality, as what can be individual in a universe created and evolved in interconnectivity? Remove the `air` `water` `Sunlight` and what then individuality as it disperses into afterlife. To understand unity requires a unified position of observation, I am we, sharing sameness in difference, in reflection of the universe and the Spiritual nature from whence it was expressed. What you contemplate to be, little more than a choice of perspective can become valued as `one perspective` which unifies everything in its observation. Its simply a question of which position of observation supplies that perspective.

The story goes that once upon a time there was a single consciousness, all alone in the night. That consciousness changed the Universe forever when it asked the question "Who Am I?" To answer that question it split itself into two so that it could look at itself, and in that moment duality and separation were born. Here we are today. It's quite a simple little ditty but explains so much, it becomes the seed from which much understanding grows. There is a place for 'this', a place for 'that' and a place for 'those' - even within ourselves. If ever there was meaning in the words 'We Are the Universe' those are they. We tend to split ourselves up into two, the Spiritual and the human and sometimes never the twain shall meet. But they have already met, we just need to create the space for that to be realised. In the tale of the Universe splitting itself up my intuition has made a place for your third party, one that sees one, the other and both at the same time.
“We tend to split ourselves up into two, the Spiritual and the human and sometimes never the twain shall meet. But they have already met, we just need to create the space for that to be realised.” Is it worth considering `how` nature produces that variation rather than our choice? As `where` human and Spiritual nature may `meet`, is only a question for the human perspective of separation to consider. As Spirit cannot be separated from its own expression in human being, if we highlight your consideration, “we just need to create the space for that to be realised.” It may become more, what is that `space` in which it may be realized? As I refer to the `ethereal condition`, I reflect no separation between the Spirit of my body/mind, and my awareness of their sameness in difference.
“It's quite a simple little ditty but explains so much, it becomes the seed from which much understanding grows.” That sounds like a reflection of ethereal awareness to me.

“In the tale of the Universe splitting itself up my intuition has made a place for your third party, one that sees one, the other and both at the same time.” In the tale of the Spiritual/human being splitting itself up. The third party position of observation, may add to your understanding of one and the other, in reflecting what it means when their difference as `both` disintegrate into sameness. And though I could not be happier to reflect your intuitions decision, it is not `my` third party position of observation, as nature supplies its wonderful clarity in observation. We may simply seek to find it, and share its reflective experience.

And in that there seems to be much more than meets the eye in the interaction - as always and in all ways. It would be so easy to come out with words that would sound like a god complex, however in the understanding of the Universe smiling at itself... The human has become less tiny little, like the scene from 2001 A Space Odyssey where Dave Bowman has made his trip from earth via the monolith and into the room where he's waiting to die, to become the StarChild. Yet there is a 'force' behind that which built the mechanisms for him to be come that. The StarChild being much further from the human yet not, the circles of creation spiralling out so that we can become what we have already been once again. Meeting ourselves for the first time.
“Yet there is a 'force' behind that which built the mechanisms for him to be come that.” Bit of Luke Skywalker popped into mind there.lol But the `force` is nature, for it is our universality in nature, which reintroduces the universal self, to its individuality. Though the nature of ethereal `force`, reflects a different, “Meeting ourselves for the first time.” More Spiritual than universal and that nature draws me more. As the ethereal third party position of observation, reflects an individual clarity of universality, in both manifest and Spiritual natures of self-in-existence, but `more`, it reflects why and how their difference dissolves into sameness.

Once again I find myself letting go of things that have served for a long time - connections being one of them. I have explored them in so many ways on so many levels with so many people and at the time they certainly helped. That was a time though when the lines of separation were there and they had their own reasons for existence or perspective. But yet again in the blurring of the lines of separation connections seem to blur in the space where this and that becomes both this and that. Still the human 'reality check' is there, the one that finds some things difficult to accept but the Universe has infinite patience and brings people to reinforce that. There will come a time when even that will blur and it won't matter about who is smiling at who.
During the journey of self-discovery often the cup becomes full, and contentment may introduce its pleasures. But in an evolution of change, the new requires that the cup be empty, to avoid the predictable conflicts between what once filled the cup, and that which seeks entry into it.

`Letting go` is one of the most valued experiences, where finding new understanding is concerned. As without it, we `hold tight` and flowing is not possible when we hold on. “Still the human 'reality check' is there, the one that finds some things difficult to accept but the Universe has infinite patience and brings people to reinforce that. There will come a time when even that will blur and it won't matter about who is smiling at who.” I will second that, as I catch a glimpse of the universe smiling in observation of you reflecting a Z from an A.

It is the Journey of rising back through the levels, the turning point if you like. In a time before time the single consciousness split itself into two and here we are today, walking back up through the levels of separation that were created by choice. Not just in the saying of the words "Universe become manifest" but understanding the process of how and why.
You describe an alphabet, from Z back to A and back again, read your words again and consider `single consciousness` to be `Spirit`. And see how you already understand the process of how and why. As `we` the universe and I, stroll back to where we were expressed from, understanding why all `Spirit`, may have chosen to manifest a universal self in form. Just to return back again.

Absolutely no need to apologise and I do appreciate you interacting with me in this way. I can't begin to tell you of the insights it has given me, the understanding. This conversation is very much the right thing at the right time on so many levels. You are being key in creating something, what I don't know at the moment but that time will come.
Those insights are your creation, your openness has allowed them to become, I am only a reflection of my observations. And within them I am we, for in all our difference in human perception, my heart and ethereal third party position of observation, reflects that we are more the same than different. So why would my nature not seek to share that simple reality.

We are creating all the time, `all` of us. Realizing what happens when we `share` in those creations, may result in a knowing which reflects having an understanding, before that knowing. And when that knowing `confirms that previous understanding of what was `not` known, then an alphabet reflects an understanding of Z that only becomes confirmed when the knowledge of A is realized. You understand what you do not know, but as sure as the Sun will rise, you will `know` what you understood.

Namaste Greenslade, my gratitude for allowing me to share the reflections of my observations, we do share more in sameness than difference.

Papa Bear

04-11-2013, 11:01 PM

Hi Mr Interesting,
So whilst the real world technology and accrued wisdom of transformers is quite daunting and jargon filled I remember that the originators just had to go out and do stuff and apply the accumulating jargon afterwards to try and explain what was happening.
Those originators I presume where scientists, which may explain why the finished accumulated jargon became a real world technology, which is quite daunting. Though I recognize the reflection of the pioneer, that just had to go out and do stuff, and the example they set that other pioneers may learn from.

And this is me running around in circles not getting anywhere but with an ear to the whisperings of the stuff itself, the subjective flow of data swirls and knots, but somehow the objects themselves have a magic of sorts I can listen for. Then Ocamm's razor suddenly is remembered as for some reason I then know exactly what to do and not only does it work but it works as I hoped it might.
Then maybe running around in circles not getting anywhere, has led you to then find a guiding system. That may abridge or adapt an understanding which may bring the subjective and the magic of the object, into some form of alignment. As you can, “know exactly what to do and not only does it work but it works as I hoped it might.” For the process of assessing any element of connectivity can be logical and relative, but the subjective element of that association, can be as complex or simple as how one understands the process. And you seem to be happy with yours, because it works, and we can be no less contented than when `it works`.

Maybe it's within the nature of the objects, the transformers, where high potential and low current within a substance of almost no resistivity is applied as a flux within the confines of the parent metal of the planet, iron, and then passed into another set of non resistivity with a change in potential and current flow... but the current can only flow if there is a load.
If you know what that `load` is, then you may confirm in action, what reflects as a theory waiting to be confirmed. As currents and flows, especially in connectivity, may also be as complex or simple as the understanding of the one reflecting them. Maybe it is “within the nature of the objects, the transformers”, for it is them that transform the connectivity of the currents and flows. Just like people.
I know as little about transformers as whatsit razor, so I hope I have reflected in some symmetry of shared understanding.

Mr Interesting

05-11-2013, 04:30 AM

Papa Bear

05-11-2013, 11:07 PM

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor from William of Ockham (c. 1287 – 1347), and in Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in logic and problem-solving. It states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

The application of the principle often shifts the burden of proof in a discussion.[a] The razor states that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate. Philosophers also point out that the exact meaning of simplest may be nuanced.

The above is from wikipedia.

For me it's the idea that as complexity builds upon complexity we eventually reach a point where the simplest, and usually the first, answer is the best.

I remember when I first got into computers and getting slightly weirded out how they seemed to be in resonance to me and how I thought, not like they're doing weird like things, but a synchrony of sorts maybe and then I realised that everything made by man must be modeled on man... what else could we use as subject for our objects. And over the years I've seen the same parallels in all kinds of technology... even to the extent that our own internal beliefs and faith etc can be mirrored somehow within and about the technology we use, and the rules we set to understand it... electrical theory especially.
Thanks for the glimpse of William`s principal, the path of least resistance has its qualities and resulting effect. I agree with your considerations of parallels, as there is a natural logic to any symmetry between most elements of human considerations and associations with energy. As our biology itself, flows in the same currents of those energies, as the universe determines by nature.

In essence our biological sense and mind relies upon electromagnetic currents and flows, so we may have beliefs and faith. While any belief in action, must `harmonize with those same `electromagnetic` energies on a universal scale, to manifest in any reality, within human experiential understanding.

Personally I have considered, that if the Higgs Boson particle, gave shape to the electron, we may have a reflection of connectivity between an `ethereal` cause, the Higgs Boson particle and the source of electrical currents and flows. Not dissimilar to the source reasoning for human biology, which may put a more `human`, equation to my ethereal nature, in more of an electrical current of a transitory nature. As our duel nature in sensitivity, may reflect a human transistor, for an ethereal current, linked through a load, of `feeling`? Not dissimilar to the universal Higgs Boson and the electron.

Greenslade

08-11-2013, 04:20 PM

Hi Greenslade,
“Call your words validation, conformation or anything else you'd like to chose, but they hit the nail right on the head.” The value of a confirmation is priceless, so I am more than happy to have provided a glimpse of such. “They also bring another mystery in that there other reflections that, for the moment, I can't quite put my finger on. Once upon a time perhaps they would be easily explained but not so much in your case,” When or if our position of observation changes, then everything we `observe` may reflect a new understanding, maybe not as readily understandable as in previous observations, but exciting in their possibilities. “but then if 'We Are One then perhaps this is a part of bringing that into more of a reality not just in the way we can affect each other in the interaction but also in 'practical terms' at quite a profound level.” The only limitations that exist are the ones we place upon ourselves. And though this may be considered blah, blah, blah, heard it seen it done it reflection. On closer scrutiny realizing such, can lead to considerations of what may change, if we pondered on what if limitations were discarded. What then in self and shared awareness?

Hi Papa Bear

I'm a trainer by trade and that has taught me one very vital thing. While we can pass on knowledge, what we can't pass on is the experience. When I was training people in computers I could give them the knowledge of what buttons to press to arrive at a given result, but the experience of them pressing those buttons and arriving at those results given their various backgrounds, that's something only they could experience. When it came time to give out the pass certificates it made the whole process worthwhile, not just in that they knew more about computers than they did when they walked in but also in their Journey and in many ways their self development in ways they often weren't aware of. Not being egotistical but it gave me a certain satisfaction to be a part of that process, knowing that I had been a part of their Journey and experience.

One God complex coming up :wink: I often wondered what it would be like if I could just plug into their heads, if all it took was to push a plug into their heads and simply download everything. But then, what would that take away from them? It wasn't just about knowing what buttons to press but the overcoming of their fears, the frustrations they felt when things went wrong and having the confidence to ask those 'silly questions'. As a trainer it was my job to cross that great divide, not as in the job description but in who I Am. It was about their part of the Journey, to change them just a little so that they could find a little something that would help them in the next stage. If I was God, would I change any of that? As I walk my Path they walk theirs, and their Path - for that time - becomes mine. If there were no limitations those Paths would be very different. If there were no limitations the Path of this conversation would be very different. Being a product of duality and separation brings two perspectives, one that would change the Universe to a place of sunshine and roses and one that would allow all things to exist regardless.

Gratitude is a shared smile in shared recognition of shared realisation, the smile is enough. The universe will be as it is, without our understanding of it. It is within self-understanding that we may synchronize with each other, and produces ripples of effect beyond ourselves. “This is a process I need to understand, not just what's happening 'inside' but how the interaction can affect that because it will affect what has yet to come.” You already have an understanding of what you define, but it may be external in perspective. While what you now seek to understand, is the inner processes and their effect to a cause less predictable. For it may highlight, how time itself may be perceived from a third party position of observation.

If the present moment is A in an alphabet, because A exists, Z may come into observation. Then the entire evolved alphabet may become known, before it has evolved into experience of the now. This position of observation may present itself, when the consequences of that A, reflect the beginning of a thing, which has a discernible Z, understanding `both` from where their difference harmonize in a `certainty` of sameness combined, manifests every letter in between them both. So what `will be` in a future time may be realized, in the moment A is recognized.[
Your alphabet is very apt right now and explains quite a few things. Yes I have an understanding of what I define but the external and internal are blurring together somewhat, that'll teach me to ask dumb questions lol. It seems there are a number of alphabets turning inside each other like the cogs of a watch and at the moment they're not as synchronised as they could be but the process is happening. My physical Life has brought me back to my place of birth, somewhere I vowed I would never be again. While some things have changed many remain the same. Spiritually the wheel has turned as well, coming back to the original concepts but with a different perspective. That is a given, considering the changes. In both cases Z is a little way off yet though. I've always believed that I am an aspect of a Spirit rather than an individual Soul and most of my Journey seems to have reflected that. 'Something inside' is saying that there is another alphabet happening at the next level up and talking to certain others about what they are going through, the same process is happening to them.

"Honour your own Path" is an honourable self-respectful consideration, more natural than chosen. `Honouring everyone’s Path` is the nature of Spiritual understanding, and the source of wisdom, in human terms of understanding. As what has passed with time, is not what `Is` within the moment I/you/we choose what we shall share. And as `we` may evolve beyond defensive judgements of each other, we may also learn how we may do the same with any other, who struggles to find self-peace in their understanding.
In the human perspective it's probably quite natural for it to begin with Honouring our own Paths, in that we begin to understand what that means. But once we Honour our own Paths there is a natural process where we begin to Honour the Paths of others. In Honouring the Paths of others first sometimes we can begin to Honour our own Paths. Perhaps where we see external vs internal Spirit doesn't, because to Spirit there is neither nor.

“in that first party and third party are all one and the same and it is only through a side-step of perspective that one becomes the other, or both.” Duality in opposition presents two perspectives either or both may be individually understood to be in opposition. While a third party observation which may be naturally created, from a position of understanding `where` they both meet in shared sameness. May produce more in understanding of the nature their difference, more significantly, why in essence they evolved from a shared sameness. Call it the `primal cause` the 0 before 1, from which all difference emerged from sameness. Understanding the primal reasoning of a thing reflects the wisdom of its source cause, to understand its meaning in difference.

“in that there is the human and there is the Spirit, and while never the twain shall meet there is unity in the separation and vice versa, the interaction of the two bringing about yet another perspective of the interaction.” And it is `that` perspective which may be understood to be third party position of observation. What, where, is that unity, in actuality, not philosophy or metaphysical concept, but `practically` in experiential awareness, what, where is it.

This to me has been a `core` realization of my Spiritual development, to realize and reflect in sharing, that `actuality` in practicality. In the reflective observations of `that`, third party position of observation, where and how, human nature and Spiritual nature, may `meet` in sameness. For that position of observation reflects where and how a human being may `know` the Spirit who expressed them into being.
All things in the Universe have their reasons for existence, whether we accept their existence or simply not see them is a different matter. There was a beautiful and classical example of this in a thread in this forum. I was in a quite heated discussion with another member on a certain subject where our views seemed to be very polar opposites. He posted something that illustrated my point exactly but I think he was trying to use it to prove his. The illustration and his point didn't seem to have any connection. The other strange thing was that we were coming from the same place, it was just that he chose not to see sameness but chose to create difference every step of the way. Sameness and difference seemed to dance around each other.

Sometimes we have to understand separation to understand unity, we have to understand 'that' before we can understand 'this'. And like you, to me understanding doesn't come from the philosophy but in the direct experience and how it applies to 'real Life'. And yes, to "know the Spirit who expressed them into being." This is the Journey at the moment, the beginning to realise and 'know' that Spirit not only in concept but also in a way that realises the reasons for this human existence. I've always known that Spirit has been there in various ways, sometimes simply accepting his existence or allowing his conciousness to 'overlap'. Even doing things that, on the surface, it was something that needed to be done for a reason I couldn't fathom. There has always been the perspective and understanding of how how I am an aspect of that Spirit become manifest, but it seems Z is leading me back to A.

“Even that though becomes little more than a choice of perspective, but it is seeing that in 'real Life' within the context of unity vs separation” Separation is a human concept of individuality, as what can be individual in a universe created and evolved in interconnectivity? Remove the `air` `water` `Sunlight` and what then individuality as it disperses into afterlife. To understand unity requires a unified position of observation, I am we, sharing sameness in difference, in reflection of the universe and the Spiritual nature from whence it was expressed. What you contemplate to be, little more than a choice of perspective can become valued as `one perspective` which unifies everything in its observation. Its simply a question of which position of observation supplies that perspective.

“We tend to split ourselves up into two, the Spiritual and the human and sometimes never the twain shall meet. But they have already met, we just need to create the space for that to be realised.” Is it worth considering `how` nature produces that variation rather than our choice? As `where` human and Spiritual nature may `meet`, is only a question for the human perspective of separation to consider. As Spirit cannot be separated from its own expression in human being, if we highlight your consideration, “we just need to create the space for that to be realised.” It may become more, what is that `space` in which it may be realized? As I refer to the `ethereal condition`, I reflect no separation between the Spirit of my body/mind, and my awareness of their sameness in difference.
“It's quite a simple little ditty but explains so much, it becomes the seed from which much understanding grows.” That sounds like a reflection of ethereal awareness to me.

“In the tale of the Universe splitting itself up my intuition has made a place for your third party, one that sees one, the other and both at the same time.” In the tale of the Spiritual/human being splitting itself up. The third party position of observation, may add to your understanding of one and the other, in reflecting what it means when their difference as `both` disintegrate into sameness. And though I could not be happier to reflect your intuitions decision, it is not `my` third party position of observation, as nature supplies its wonderful clarity in observation. We may simply seek to find it, and share its reflective experience.
Yes, "what is that 'space' in which it may be realised"? I realise that you reflect no separation between the Spirit of your mind/body and your awareness, we're just coming at this from different angles. For me there are reasons for the perspective of separation, in that in unity we can create the space where it is separate, create the space where it meets and create the space where there is no separation. The space is where the seed of understanding grows within ourselves as humans, and reflects the Universe splitting itself into two when it asked 'Who Am I?' As Above, So Below as they say. The human Journey becomes the Journey of Spirit becomes the Journey of the Universe. Sameness creates difference creates sameness, and so the energy of the Universe flows within itself. The Universe reflects back in on itself as we create the spaces within ourselves.

“Yet there is a 'force' behind that which built the mechanisms for him to be come that.” Bit of Luke Skywalker popped into mind there.lol But the `force` is nature, for it is our universality in nature, which reintroduces the universal self, to its individuality. Though the nature of ethereal `force`, reflects a different, “Meeting ourselves for the first time.” More Spiritual than universal and that nature draws me more. As the ethereal third party position of observation, reflects an individual clarity of universality, in both manifest and Spiritual natures of self-in-existence, but `more`, it reflects why and how their difference dissolves into sameness.
And how is Obe Wan today:wink:
While the Big Bang seems to be a reflected theory for the creation of the physical Universe there is also the 'Big Crunch'. The concept there is that while the Universe is expanding, there will come a time when it will stop expanding and start imploding. While science can say 'this is what happened in the first micro-seconds of the Universe' it has never really explained where all that matter and energy came from in the first place. According to Douglas Adams, if we were to understand the Universe it would be immediately replaced by something even more confusing, and that this has already happened. Perhaps the Big Bang came from a previous Big Crunch, and perhaps this is an analogy for the Journey of the Universe. The Big Bang came from one single consciousness splitting itself into two and we've reached the point where it's imploding into itself. Perhaps in the moment of the next Big Bang there will be no sameness and no difference, there will only be what Is.

During the journey of self-discovery often the cup becomes full, and contentment may introduce its pleasures. But in an evolution of change, the new requires that the cup be empty, to avoid the predictable conflicts between what once filled the cup, and that which seeks entry into it.
Or perhaps the new requires that there is no cup, the same as there are no spoons according to the bald kid in the Matrix:wink:

`Letting go` is one of the most valued experiences, where finding new understanding is concerned. As without it, we `hold tight` and flowing is not possible when we hold on. “Still the human 'reality check' is there, the one that finds some things difficult to accept but the Universe has infinite patience and brings people to reinforce that. There will come a time when even that will blur and it won't matter about who is smiling at who.” I will second that, as I catch a glimpse of the universe smiling in observation of you reflecting a Z from an A.
As I see it, thoughts, beliefs etc are energy and energy likes to do what is its nature - flow. When we hold onto things stagnation occurs.

You describe an alphabet, from Z back to A and back again, read your words again and consider `single consciousness` to be `Spirit`. And see how you already understand the process of how and why. As `we` the universe and I, stroll back to where we were expressed from, understanding why all `Spirit`, may have chosen to manifest a universal self in form. Just to return back again.

Those insights are your creation, your openness has allowed them to become, I am only a reflection of my observations. And within them I am we, for in all our difference in human perception, my heart and ethereal third party position of observation, reflects that we are more the same than different. So why would my nature not seek to share that simple reality.

We are creating all the time, `all` of us. Realizing what happens when we `share` in those creations, may result in a knowing which reflects having an understanding, before that knowing. And when that knowing `confirms that previous understanding of what was `not` known, then an alphabet reflects an understanding of Z that only becomes confirmed when the knowledge of A is realized. You understand what you do not know, but as sure as the Sun will rise, you will `know` what you understood.
Nature, and what humans do with it is a curious thing. While some like you and I want to go with their natures, it is the nature of others to go against their nature. Sometimes the Universe understands its sameness in its difference and its difference in sameness but it all comes back to the same place - wherever that is here, there or everywhere.

Namaste Greenslade, my gratitude for allowing me to share the reflections of my observations, we do share more in sameness than difference.
Namaste to you too, Papa Bear. Thank you for being the Universe that reflects back at me.

Papa Bear

09-11-2013, 01:48 AM

Hi Greenslade,
I'm a trainer by trade and that has taught me one very vital thing. While we can pass on knowledge, what we can't pass on is the experience. When I was training people in computers I could give them the knowledge of what buttons to press to arrive at a given result, but the experience of them pressing those buttons and arriving at those results given their various backgrounds, that's something only they could experience. When it came time to give out the pass certificates it made the whole process worthwhile, not just in that they knew more about computers than they did when they walked in but also in their Journey and in many ways their self development in ways they often weren't aware of. Not being egotistical but it gave me a certain satisfaction to be a part of that process, knowing that I had been a part of their Journey and experience.

One God complex coming up I often wondered what it would be like if I could just plug into their heads, if all it took was to push a plug into their heads and simply download everything. But then, what would that take away from them? It wasn't just about knowing what buttons to press but the overcoming of their fears, the frustrations they felt when things went wrong and having the confidence to ask those 'silly questions'. As a trainer it was my job to cross that great divide, not as in the job description but in who I Am. It was about their part of the Journey, to change them just a little so that they could find a little something that would help them in the next stage. If I was God, would I change any of that? As I walk my Path they walk theirs, and their Path - for that time - becomes mine. If there were no limitations those Paths would be very different. If there were no limitations the Path of this conversation would be very different. Being a product of duality and separation brings two perspectives, one that would change the Universe to a place of sunshine and roses and one that would allow all things to exist regardless.
I can associate with your reflection from personal experience. I was the part time student, PC passport the course, keeping up with my grandchildren the motive. Without the guide, a class of over-aged paranoid computer learners would never have touched a button lol. But when the A had been given and the next course motivated the advanced course, in self-determination, I left with my own rewards. More advanced than beginners, but I still hold fond memory of he who gave me A.

“Not being egotistical but it gave me a certain satisfaction to be a part of that process, knowing that I had been a part of their Journey and experience.” As in there somewhere two separate, found sameness, and what one understood, the others learned to understand. Simplified in your words, “As I walk my Path they walk theirs, and their Path - for that time - becomes mine.”. Your reflection from experience gives a good example, of the variation in `real-life, of when and how we may understand our differences. While sharing them if one is open to share, the other may learn. As when the end result determines `sameness` in shared understanding. We may recognize how routine sharing can lead to finding sameness in difference, in actuality in routine life, when two different open themselves up to share, to learn.

Your alphabet is very apt right now and explains quite a few things. Yes I have an understanding of what I define but the external and internal are blurring together somewhat, that'll teach me to ask dumb questions lol. It seems there are a number of alphabets turning inside each other like the cogs of a watch and at the moment they're not as synchronised as they could be but the process is happening. My physical Life has brought me back to my place of birth, somewhere I vowed I would never be again. While some things have changed many remain the same. Spiritually the wheel has turned as well, coming back to the original concepts but with a different perspective. That is a given, considering the changes. In both cases Z is a little way off yet though. I've always believed that I am an aspect of a Spirit rather than an individual Soul and most of my Journey seems to have reflected that. 'Something inside' is saying that there is another alphabet happening at the next level up and talking to certain others about what they are going through, the same process is happening to them.
We often seek to abridge the Spiritual nature of existence into `real-life` human considerations. But often, when human life reflects symmetry with a new Spiritual perspective, that symmetry is missed in observation. And that presents the perfect conditions, for a third party position of observation, not one to focus only on one aspect or the other. But to recognize, how their `sameness` may manifest in effect even in difference, as Spiritual subtle influences within the reasoning for our human experiences, may become realized. And from such observations at least the next letter of an alphabet, may identify another step closer to understanding the Z.

“'Something inside' is saying that there is another alphabet happening at the next level up and talking to certain others about what they are going through, the same process is happening to them.” I can reflect sameness with that `sense` of recognition, though recently I have had experience of a manifest realization of an arrival at a Z. In an alphabet which had an A from thirty years ago, in a reflection of instruction, in the halls of learning more astral than manifest in human experience. And if I may, I would share the experience with you Greenslade and any who may find its `recent` confirmation, in the `threads` of my profile over the past year.

During my late twenties, I was experiencing the ethereal nature of my sensitivity, as routine as eating dinner. It obviously helped being an active influence within a Spiritualist development circle routinely. But in one particular experience, I was left with just the end part of a fuller experience, remaining in memory. It was referenced to my ethereal understanding, as the presence behind me whispered, as I departed the experience. “Abridge and adapt to the needs of the many”.

The profoundness of that Spiritual experience shaped my intention for the next thirty years. To find any/every means of reflecting the nature of `our` ethereal condition, in ways and means which may share, abridge and adapt that understanding into others recognition in their understanding. The reasons were simple, combined and separate natures reflect the Spirit and its expression in human being. Most understood this equation, but fewer considered the `space` in-between` them, a space which `forms` an extension of the human condition, within an ethereal nature.

And `everything` associated with the Spiritual nature of existence, within the human experience of understandable awareness, is derived from that ethereal sensitivity in nature. This was my understanding from my experiential awareness. But finding the `words`, to reflect such a nature, has been the greatest challenge of my Spiritual development in human life. For it is of the upmost relevance to understand, like you, I understood what I was trying to share. And my motivation was as yours, to introduce another to a new self-understanding in nature.

The resulting endeavour manifest the most inventive vocabularies I could create, but joining this forum, while more contented in a more private earthed life of contentment, offered another opportunity to re-engage with an old endeavour. So as I have reflected it in the threads I have created since I arrived in this forum of sharing. My evolution in vocabulary, from formlessness to sameness, has been as much an evolution for myself, as those who struggled to understand what I was trying to reflect.

And so I arrive in this moment, and reflect my most recent self-realization. Where I have had a fondness for the term `ethereal`, I realized that I had discovered a more natural term. And though I had not realized it while I used it, that term had completed my endeavour, because `SAMENESS` is a reflection of our ethereal nature. As its shared experience in `all` natures reflects in manifest confirmation, `The Reality of Spirituality`. For it is in its purest simplicity, the capacity in nature to find and share sameness with any difference.

So in conclusion, I have evolved from an expression of formlessness, its currents and resonance flows, into the empathic telepathy which creates intuition, through self-reflection to arrive at `sameness in difference`. Called the Quintessence by Plato and Aristotle, an Aether/ether which manifest an Akasha within its collective memory, the ethereal condition of `our` natural experience within human and Spiritual interconnectivity, has become `sameness in difference`. A reflection any may understand in their own way.

(if I could write a tear flowing down a cheek, you may feel it as I experience it.) My overwhelming ecstasy in self-joy is beyond any words in expression, beyond a self-contented bliss that I have answered the reflection of the `council` who offered their guidance in instruction. So I can but reflect the nature of my journey, and the moment I have arrived at. I leave my most intimate natural Spiritual/human experience in awareness, with your understanding of its sharing Greenslade.

In the human perspective it's probably quite natural for it to begin with Honouring our own Paths, in that we begin to understand what that means. But once we Honour our own Paths there is a natural process where we begin to Honour the Paths of others. In Honouring the Paths of others first sometimes we can begin to Honour our own Paths. Perhaps where we see external vs internal Spirit doesn't, because to Spirit there is neither nor.
This is an understanding of the essence of what `sameness` means.

All things in the Universe have their reasons for existence, whether we accept their existence or simply not see them is a different matter. There was a beautiful and classical example of this in a thread in this forum. I was in a quite heated discussion with another member on a certain subject where our views seemed to be very polar opposites. He posted something that illustrated my point exactly but I think he was trying to use it to prove his. The illustration and his point didn't seem to have any connection. The other strange thing was that we were coming from the same place, it was just that he chose not to see sameness but chose to create difference every step of the way. Sameness and difference seemed to dance around each other.

Sometimes we have to understand separation to understand unity, we have to understand 'that' before we can understand 'this'. And like you, to me understanding doesn't come from the philosophy but in the direct experience and how it applies to 'real Life'. And yes, to "know the Spirit who expressed them into being." This is the Journey at the moment, the beginning to realise and 'know' that Spirit not only in concept but also in a way that realises the reasons for this human existence. I've always known that Spirit has been there in various ways, sometimes simply accepting his existence or allowing his conciousness to 'overlap'. Even doing things that, on the surface, it was something that needed to be done for a reason I couldn't fathom. There has always been the perspective and understanding of how how I am an aspect of that Spirit become manifest, but it seems Z is leading me back to A.
As A is human nature where we observe from, having an understanding of the Spirit at Z, gives us the potential to be aware of why we are here to `enjoy` the evolving alphabet. For we return to where we came from, in its natural flow, understanding can encourage the `observer` in us, to be content in observation. Beyond reactions distractions we may share by example, the nature of shared understanding when we may share sameness in difference, reflecting a Spiritual nature within our shared human nature. As above so below.

Yes, "what is that 'space' in which it may be realised"? I realise that you reflect no separation between the Spirit of your mind/body and your awareness, we're just coming at this from different angles. For me there are reasons for the perspective of separation, in that in unity we can create the space where it is separate, create the space where it meets and create the space where there is no separation. The space is where the seed of understanding grows within ourselves as humans, and reflects the Universe splitting itself into two when it asked 'Who Am I?' As Above, So Below as they say. The human Journey becomes the Journey of Spirit becomes the Journey of the Universe. Sameness creates difference creates sameness, and so the energy of the Universe flows within itself. The Universe reflects back in on itself as we create the spaces within ourselves.
Exactly. As we see the elegant beauty of everything separate, we may wonder in awe, at its sameness, including us within it.

And how is Obe Wan today (going with the flow; or was it the force…lol)
While the Big Bang seems to be a reflected theory for the creation of the physical Universe there is also the 'Big Crunch'. The concept there is that while the Universe is expanding, there will come a time when it will stop expanding and start imploding. While science can say 'this is what happened in the first micro-seconds of the Universe' it has never really explained where all that matter and energy came from in the first place. According to Douglas Adams, if we were to understand the Universe it would be immediately replaced by something even more confusing, and that this has already happened. Perhaps the Big Bang came from a previous Big Crunch, and perhaps this is an analogy for the Journey of the Universe. The Big Bang came from one single consciousness splitting itself into two and we've reached the point where it's imploding into itself. Perhaps in the moment of the next Big Bang there will be no sameness and no difference, there will only be what Is.
“The Big Bang came from one single consciousness splitting itself into two and we've reached the point where it's imploding into itself. Perhaps in the moment of the next Big Bang there will be no sameness and no difference, there will only be what Is.” There is only what is, now. It is our perspective which gives reason to any difference. For that single `shared` consciousness/awareness, still `IS` what it has always been. The motion called evolution is our perception of its expression, whether it is `inhaling or exhaling`.

Or perhaps the new requires that there is no cup, the same as there are no spoons according to the bald kid in the Matrix
Try it. Maybe everything can be new, and let go, for the next new…lol a matrix of Spiritual proportions.

As I see it, thoughts, beliefs etc are energy and energy likes to do what is its nature - flow. When we hold onto things stagnation occurs.
Our natures reflect sameness in such an understanding.

Nature, and what humans do with it is a curious thing. While some like you and I want to go with their natures, it is the nature of others to go against their nature. Sometimes the Universe understands its sameness in its difference and its difference in sameness but it all comes back to the same place - wherever that is here, there or everywhere.
Which is why, we go with the flow of our nature.

Namaste to you too, Papa Bear. Thank you for being the Universe that reflects back at me.
I left my heart in this one, be gentle with it, for it reflects two I`s as one we, as we are each other`s reflection in shared sameness. Namaste Greenslade, thank you for bringing out of me what was held within, in this moment of reality.

Moonglow

09-11-2013, 03:43 PM

Papa Bear

10-11-2013, 02:19 PM

Hello Papa Bear,

Just drifting in here.

Been observing the exchanges in this thread and at this time not much for me to elaborate upon. Just share some thoughts.

Through the observation some things come to me and appear in mind as subjective for me. If opening the mind to the what for me are possibilities some of these subjective thoughts may become objective, while others may flow on by.

Allowing and observing the flow without placing need for myself to know and can help define for myself what is with in the observation and some of what may be subjective may take form and become what enters into what is observed.
At times a knowing occurs through observing, at others times occurs through being open to the possibilities, which may at first appear as a subjective thought.
It seems that the two interact with in me.

Well, just wanted to express this to you.

Blessing to you

Hi Moonglow,
That sounds very natural in experience, as the use and understanding of subjectivity and objectivity, are very natural considerations within the human nature of experience. What may produce a difference in their understanding may be, when our experience is shaped by `another` nature. So it may be simplified by recognizing that varying natures produce their own `meaning` in nature.

And if that simple recognition is missed, then we may rely on a conventional understanding in human psychology, to unravel an understanding of something, which may `not` be human or psychological in nature. And we may recognize that when this method of translation has been used for such, `flaws` appear in translation of experience, of what may be `another` nature of awareness.

So if we are to understand more subtle elements of an ethereal or Spiritual nature of experience, then maybe we need to start by recognizing that conventional human psychological means of understanding, may need an `update` lol. As those elements of experiential awareness may be a product of `other` natures, with their own means of understanding.

For this has been the motivation behind this threads considerations, to ponder on what happens if or when subjective objectivity, may blend into sameness while different. As it is may be many, who have such experience of what happens, in experiential awareness within other natures of awareness. And as those other natures produce positions of observation, which may be subjective objectivity then we may consider them both, `out-side` the box, of their human psychological nature.

Thanks for your expressive considerations Moonglow.

Greenslade

11-11-2013, 10:07 AM

Hi Greenslade,

I can associate with your reflection from personal experience. I was the part time student, PC passport the course, keeping up with my grandchildren the motive. Without the guide, a class of over-aged paranoid computer learners would never have touched a button lol. But when the A had been given and the next course motivated the advanced course, in self-determination, I left with my own rewards. More advanced than beginners, but I still hold fond memory of he who gave me A.

“Not being egotistical but it gave me a certain satisfaction to be a part of that process, knowing that I had been a part of their Journey and experience.” As in there somewhere two separate, found sameness, and what one understood, the others learned to understand. Simplified in your words, “As I walk my Path they walk theirs, and their Path - for that time - becomes mine.”. Your reflection from experience gives a good example, of the variation in `real-life, of when and how we may understand our differences. While sharing them if one is open to share, the other may learn. As when the end result determines `sameness` in shared understanding. We may recognize how routine sharing can lead to finding sameness in difference, in actuality in routine life, when two different open themselves up to share, to learn.
Hi Papa Bear

I can associate with that. Most of my learners were at least middle-aged and long term unemployed, usually their self confidence and esteem was on the floor and had found themselves in a place they didn't want to be. One guy had made a be with his family that he would never complete a qualification. He lost. I met him in the street one day months after and he introduced me to his family. It was a bit overwhelming. He was the only one I met afterwards, it was a big city, it would have been nice to see a few others.

I used to be in the old MSN forums before they were closed down, not long after I had just started this Journey. There I met an amazing group of people, people who from the start seemed so different but turned out to be just the same after all. They helped me make sense of this whacked-out drivel in my head, the feelings I was having that wouldn't go away and had to be resolved. It was interesting in many ways, because they seemed so different initially but we were just the same and led me down a Path that opened up a whole new and different Universe. It seems the only differences we have are the ones we choose to make, when it comes down to the 'core'.

We often seek to abridge the Spiritual nature of existence into `real-life` human considerations. But often, when human life reflects symmetry with a new Spiritual perspective, that symmetry is missed in observation. And that presents the perfect conditions, for a third party position of observation, not one to focus only on one aspect or the other. But to recognize, how their `sameness` may manifest in effect even in difference, as Spiritual subtle influences within the reasoning for our human experiences, may become realized. And from such observations at least the next letter of an alphabet, may identify another step closer to understanding the Z.

“'Something inside' is saying that there is another alphabet happening at the next level up and talking to certain others about what they are going through, the same process is happening to them.” I can reflect sameness with that `sense` of recognition, though recently I have had experience of a manifest realization of an arrival at a Z. In an alphabet which had an A from thirty years ago, in a reflection of instruction, in the halls of learning more astral than manifest in human experience. And if I may, I would share the experience with you Greenslade and any who may find its `recent` confirmation, in the `threads` of my profile over the past year.

During my late twenties, I was experiencing the ethereal nature of my sensitivity, as routine as eating dinner. It obviously helped being an active influence within a Spiritualist development circle routinely. But in one particular experience, I was left with just the end part of a fuller experience, remaining in memory. It was referenced to my ethereal understanding, as the presence behind me whispered, as I departed the experience. “Abridge and adapt to the needs of the many”.

The profoundness of that Spiritual experience shaped my intention for the next thirty years. To find any/every means of reflecting the nature of `our` ethereal condition, in ways and means which may share, abridge and adapt that understanding into others recognition in their understanding. The reasons were simple, combined and separate natures reflect the Spirit and its expression in human being. Most understood this equation, but fewer considered the `space` in-between` them, a space which `forms` an extension of the human condition, within an ethereal nature.

And `everything` associated with the Spiritual nature of existence, within the human experience of understandable awareness, is derived from that ethereal sensitivity in nature. This was my understanding from my experiential awareness. But finding the `words`, to reflect such a nature, has been the greatest challenge of my Spiritual development in human life. For it is of the upmost relevance to understand, like you, I understood what I was trying to share. And my motivation was as yours, to introduce another to a new self-understanding in nature.

The resulting endeavour manifest the most inventive vocabularies I could create, but joining this forum, while more contented in a more private earthed life of contentment, offered another opportunity to re-engage with an old endeavour. So as I have reflected it in the threads I have created since I arrived in this forum of sharing. My evolution in vocabulary, from formlessness to sameness, has been as much an evolution for myself, as those who struggled to understand what I was trying to reflect.

And so I arrive in this moment, and reflect my most recent self-realization. Where I have had a fondness for the term `ethereal`, I realized that I had discovered a more natural term. And though I had not realized it while I used it, that term had completed my endeavour, because `SAMENESS` is a reflection of our ethereal nature. As its shared experience in `all` natures reflects in manifest confirmation, `The Reality of Spirituality`. For it is in its purest simplicity, the capacity in nature to find and share sameness with any difference.

So in conclusion, I have evolved from an expression of formlessness, its currents and resonance flows, into the empathic telepathy which creates intuition, through self-reflection to arrive at `sameness in difference`. Called the Quintessence by Plato and Aristotle, an Aether/ether which manifest an Akasha within its collective memory, the ethereal condition of `our` natural experience within human and Spiritual interconnectivity, has become `sameness in difference`. A reflection any may understand in their own way.

(if I could write a tear flowing down a cheek, you may feel it as I experience it.) My overwhelming ecstasy in self-joy is beyond any words in expression, beyond a self-contented bliss that I have answered the reflection of the `council` who offered their guidance in instruction. So I can but reflect the nature of my journey, and the moment I have arrived at. I leave my most intimate natural Spiritual/human experience in awareness, with your understanding of its sharing Greenslade.
Umm, what can I say on this one? Stunned into silence. It's like reading my own story over again, only the words are different. Honestly. My skin is crawling but that's a good sign, it means I have 'ethereal company' and the crawling is the reaction to the energies. Even down to the "re-engage with an old endeavour." I was given a task to find members of a 'Soul Group' for want of a better expression that had been lost to each other across incarnations. I had 'found' those I needed to and reconnected, although the connections had never really been lost and for a time it seemed the endeavour had been completed. Intuition told me that there were those that still had to be 'found', or at least recognised within this existence so I carried on with an open mind to see who came 'out of the woodwork'. It seems they're still coming. I understand your "tear flowing down the cheek" very well. Saying thank you seems so inadequate.

The council, can you elaborate please?

As A is human nature where we observe from, having an understanding of the Spirit at Z, gives us the potential to be aware of why we are here to `enjoy` the evolving alphabet. For we return to where we came from, in its natural flow, understanding can encourage the `observer` in us, to be content in observation. Beyond reactions distractions we may share by example, the nature of shared understanding when we may share sameness in difference, reflecting a Spiritual nature within our shared human nature. As above so below.
There are times when the human becomes a little weary of its surroundings and I've asked the question - "What's the point?" A litle voice inside comes back - "Because I need the experience." There seems to be different alphabets looping back on each other and intertwining at the same time. Sometimes above and below are the same place, this seems to be what I'm coming to understand and experience.

“The Big Bang came from one single consciousness splitting itself into two and we've reached the point where it's imploding into itself. Perhaps in the moment of the next Big Bang there will be no sameness and no difference, there will only be what Is.” There is only what is, now. It is our perspective which gives reason to any difference. For that single `shared` consciousness/awareness, still `IS` what it has always been. The motion called evolution is our perception of its expression, whether it is `inhaling or exhaling`.
"Still IS." Yes it is, but it's how that translates down to 'real Life' instead of being a stock phrase that Spiritual people come out with that carries the meaning. What was then is now, what is now has yet to come and it's all in the same place at the same time. It simply wears different clothes.

I left my heart in this one, be gentle with it, for it reflects two I`s as one we, as we are each other`s reflection in shared sameness. Namaste Greenslade, thank you for bringing out of me what was held within, in this moment of reality.
I Honour your Path, Papa Bear. Your footprints next to/mingling with mine are most welcome.

Moonglow

11-11-2013, 01:08 PM

Hi Moonglow,
That sounds very natural in experience, as the use and understanding of subjectivity and objectivity, are very natural considerations within the human nature of experience. What may produce a difference in their understanding may be, when our experience is shaped by `another` nature. So it may be simplified by recognizing that varying natures produce their own `meaning` in nature.

And if that simple recognition is missed, then we may rely on a conventional understanding in human psychology, to unravel an understanding of something, which may `not` be human or psychological in nature. And we may recognize that when this method of translation has been used for such, `flaws` appear in translation of experience, of what may be `another` nature of awareness.

So if we are to understand more subtle elements of an ethereal or Spiritual nature of experience, then maybe we need to start by recognizing that conventional human psychological means of understanding, may need an `update` lol. As those elements of experiential awareness may be a product of `other` natures, with their own means of understanding.

For this has been the motivation behind this threads considerations, to ponder on what happens if or when subjective objectivity, may blend into sameness while different. As it is may be many, who have such experience of what happens, in experiential awareness within other natures of awareness. And as those other natures produce positions of observation, which may be subjective objectivity then we may consider them both, `out-side` the box, of their human psychological nature.

Thanks for your expressive considerations Moonglow.
Hi Papa Bear,

Thank you for taking my thoughts into consideration.

I honor your path and what is being exchange gives me pause and new perspective of the interactions.

May your travels be inspiring and your burdens be lite.:smile:

Papa Bear

11-11-2013, 03:31 PM

Hi Greenslade,
I can associate with that. Most of my learners were at least middle-aged and long term unemployed, usually their self confidence and esteem was on the floor and had found themselves in a place they didn't want to be. One guy had made a bet with his family that he would never complete a qualification. He lost. I met him in the street one day months after and he introduced me to his family. It was a bit overwhelming. He was the only one I met afterwards, it was a big city, it would have been nice to see a few others.
I can associate with this experience, for it highlights a subtle but core element of what may be deserved, but is not realized. How often in selfless reason does one plant a seed, to never realize its flowering? It was an element of my own self-development, understanding the nature of accepting having the opportunity to plant that seed. While letting go the human need of its recognition in flowering. For that is the path of the individual flowered in realization, and that `recognition` in reflection, is but a leaf blowing in the winds of Spiritual nature. While it joins others shimmering in sparkling glow, shaping the colours of a selfless persons aura-in-colour.

I used to be in the old MSN forums before they were closed down, not long after I had just started this Journey. There I met an amazing group of people, people who from the start seemed so different but turned out to be just the same after all. They helped me make sense of this whacked-out drivel in my head, the feelings I was having that wouldn't go away and had to be resolved. It was interesting in many ways, because they seemed so different initially but we were just the same and led me down a Path that opened up a whole new and different Universe. It seems the only differences we have are the ones we choose to make, when it comes down to the 'core'.
That sounds like recognition of sameness in difference reflected from within one experience of its reality. As often the relevance of what we seek to understand at A, becomes something entirely different, when realized understanding manifests at Z. When maybe we realize that what has been gained is more than what we sought originally. As you reflected; “It seems the only differences we have are the ones we choose to make, when it comes down to the 'core'.”

Umm, what can I say on this one? Stunned into silence. It's like reading my own story over again, only the words are different. Honestly. My skin is crawling but that's a good sign, it means I have 'ethereal company' and the crawling is the reaction to the energies. Even down to the "re-engage with an old endeavour." I was given a task to find members of a 'Soul Group' for want of a better expression that had been lost to each other across incarnations. I had 'found' those I needed to and reconnected, although the connections had never really been lost and for a time it seemed the endeavour had been completed. Intuition told me that there were those that still had to be 'found', or at least recognised within this existence so I carried on with an open mind to see who came 'out of the woodwork'. It seems they're still coming. I understand your "tear flowing down the cheek" very well. Saying thank you seems so inadequate.
We reflect a couple of Spirits journeying the manifest plane of existence, bound by the nature of human understanding, while intuitively, pressing on with a Spiritual reasoning, unhindered by that nature. The beauty of its reflective sharing is that it highlights the many who travel with us, strangers in the street, passing by, even those we meet. Reminding us and them of what is true, that beyond the surface difference, what vibrates within is beyond the name, it`s what we share the same.

For only when the pioneer frees self-expression may another reflect sameness in their difference. As example reflects a nature of shared learning, which comes from within expressed out, more than us may follow its direction. Thank you for sharing your journey in reflection of my own, as it highlights intentions born of the Spirit, unfolding in this life. Demonstrating examples `many` reading, may reflect themselves as it may enliven those self-contained in a material world of illusion in priority, to free their expression.

The council, can you elaborate please?
Within the subtle realms of experiential awareness, what is remembered in human consciousness often competes with material activity. So it was within the most subtle of intuition, that I held memory of the `council` I had attended, during that particular experience. As though the predominance of clarity, was the parting reflection of `who` was behind me. I felt `we` had just left that `council` of guidance, I had attended within the `Halls of Learning`
.
There are times when the human becomes a little weary of its surroundings and I've asked the question - "What's the point?" A litle voice inside comes back - "Because I need the experience." There seems to be different alphabets looping back on each other and intertwining at the same time. Sometimes above and below are the same place, this seems to be what I'm coming to understand and experience.
The journey reflects so many examples of why or how one smile, in a room of frowns, may be as candlelight in a darkened room. But in an empty room embracing only self-reflection of our own frowning, that smile may be found when the inner `smirk` is freed in self-reflection. For it comes with, “Sometimes above and below are the same place, this seems to be what I'm coming to understand and experience.” And that can evolve that smirk into a smile of self-realisation. As what we may have learned to share, may often originate from our self-in-reflection, `when we free its expression`.

"Still IS." Yes it is, but it's how that translates down to 'real Life' instead of being a stock phrase that Spiritual people come out with that carries the meaning. What was then is now, what is now has yet to come and it's all in the same place at the same time. It simply wears different clothes.
Then it only requires ones perception of which clothes it manifest in, within one`s own reality, in the moment of recognition. Like the cake of existence has many slices, we can only taste the piece we have the capacity to enjoy. Losing that pleasure in the frustration of not being able to taste the `whole` cake, is a misunderstanding of what is in front of you, is what is in actuality, in `real-in-life`s awareness. In our shared reflections, are we not demonstrating how the `whole` cake, may be realized through shared reflections of but one shared taste, of one slice of its experience? Are our shared reflections not an example of, “how that translates down to 'real Life'”

I Honour your Path, Papa Bear. Your footprints next to/mingling with mine are most welcome.
As I honour your path Greenslade and every Spiritual pioneer sharing our reflections, for `our` footprints follow and honour the path of Spiritual Masters who came before us. In the hope that our steps may be a guide to those who follow. For what more may we do, but what we are doing, sharing self-in-reflection and discovering sameness in our difference, while enjoying some 'ethereal company'.

Papa Bear

11-11-2013, 03:33 PM

Hi Moonglow,
Hi Papa Bear,

Thank you for taking my thoughts into consideration.

I honor your path and what is being exchange gives me pause and new perspective of the interactions.

May your travels be inspiring and your burdens be lite.
Our paths are entwined as they reflect from difference, but without the sharing of those reflections of thoughts or feelings, we may not discover what we share more the same than different. You give reason to my/our shared reflections.
May your thoughts be enlivened by what you feel.:smile:

Greenslade

17-11-2013, 12:07 PM

Hi Greenslade,

I can associate with this experience, for it highlights a subtle but core element of what may be deserved, but is not realized. How often in selfless reason does one plant a seed, to never realize its flowering? It was an element of my own self-development, understanding the nature of accepting having the opportunity to plant that seed. While letting go the human need of its recognition in flowering. For that is the path of the individual flowered in realization, and that `recognition` in reflection, is but a leaf blowing in the winds of Spiritual nature. While it joins others shimmering in sparkling glow, shaping the colours of a selfless persons aura-in-colour.

Something that was given to me very early on. "We are not just here for our own Journey but also for the Journey of others." As long as we are not one single person living a solitary Life on a desert island there is always the interaction, and for me the interaction has been paramount. One of the questions that came from that is what kind of Universe are we creating? Do we create an Universe where we seek recognition and reward? Rewards became quite empty, but the seeds Live and grow within others somethimes, and certainly within the Universe. It seems that for those that seek recognition and reward they are things that are never truly found, the closer one comes to them the further they slip away. As they say, "Fame is how you live on in the hearts of men." I don't seek recognition nor reward but if it makes the Universe a better place then that's all the reward there needs to be.

That sounds like recognition of sameness in difference reflected from within one experience of its reality. As often the relevance of what we seek to understand at A, becomes something entirely different, when realized understanding manifests at Z. When maybe we realize that what has been gained is more than what we sought originally. As you reflected; “It seems the only differences we have are the ones we choose to make, when it comes down to the 'core'.”
Indeed a recognition of sameness in difference. What I am finding is that what is A and what is Z seems to be turning in on each other, the drawing of the bow on the violin making the strings resonate. Self and 'True Self' twisting and dancing around each other, the search for 'True Self' became the search for Self and they became one and the same.

We reflect a couple of Spirits journeying the manifest plane of existence, bound by the nature of human understanding, while intuitively, pressing on with a Spiritual reasoning, unhindered by that nature. The beauty of its reflective sharing is that it highlights the many who travel with us, strangers in the street, passing by, even those we meet. Reminding us and them of what is true, that beyond the surface difference, what vibrates within is beyond the name, it`s what we share the same.

For only when the pioneer frees self-expression may another reflect sameness in their difference. As example reflects a nature of shared learning, which comes from within expressed out, more than us may follow its direction. Thank you for sharing your journey in reflection of my own, as it highlights intentions born of the Spirit, unfolding in this life. Demonstrating examples `many` reading, may reflect themselves as it may enliven those self-contained in a material world of illusion in priority, to free their expression.
Perhaps this is the true nature of Spirituality, in Spiritual people not being a world apart from the 'non-spiritual'. It's strange sometimes though, because in people saying that separation is an illusion they create separation but don't see the unity within. Spiritual people and 'non-Spiritual' people simply express in different ways - the same as everyone else. Difference brings sameness brings difference, all is expression of Spirit on the human Journey. The wonder for me is the myriad of forms it takes, each creation in motion. For me sometimes the sharing is in the interaction, often things are shared that needs few words as we can touch the Soul of another, become a kindred Spirit in an instant. People don't have to be Spiritual to recognise that and sometimes the awareness is nothing more than a tiny spark, but it is there just the same. Expression takes many forms, perhaps more than we realise sometimes.

Within the subtle realms of experiential awareness, what is remembered in human consciousness often competes with material activity. So it was within the most subtle of intuition, that I held memory of the `council` I had attended, during that particular experience. As though the predominance of clarity, was the parting reflection of `who` was behind me. I felt `we` had just left that `council` of guidance, I had attended within the `Halls of Learning`
Ah yes, now I understand. It has many forms and people tend to express their experiences of it differently but the place seems to remain the same.
.

The journey reflects so many examples of why or how one smile, in a room of frowns, may be as candlelight in a darkened room. But in an empty room embracing only self-reflection of our own frowning, that smile may be found when the inner `smirk` is freed in self-reflection. For it comes with, “Sometimes above and below are the same place, this seems to be what I'm coming to understand and experience.” And that can evolve that smirk into a smile of self-realisation. As what we may have learned to share, may often originate from our self-in-reflection, `when we free its expression`.
But who is Self? That seems to be the question that is coming through. Once upon a time Self was little old me, then there was a Soul and then a Spirit, aspects over aspect. Who is reflecting whom or does it really matter? There are at least three 'Selfs' reflecting all at the same time, each a reflection of the other, each smiling at each other.

Then it only requires ones perception of which clothes it manifest in, within one`s own reality, in the moment of recognition. Like the cake of existence has many slices, we can only taste the piece we have the capacity to enjoy. Losing that pleasure in the frustration of not being able to taste the `whole` cake, is a misunderstanding of what is in front of you, is what is in actuality, in `real-in-life`s awareness. In our shared reflections, are we not demonstrating how the `whole` cake, may be realized through shared reflections of but one shared taste, of one slice of its experience? Are our shared reflections not an example of, “how that translates down to 'real Life'”
One day I asked my Guide if I could perceive the Universe as he does, he laughed. I guess that means I don't have the faculties. While it would be nice to see the whole cake, the crumbs ain't so bad after all, but it's always good to know that the cake is a little bigger than it seems at first. The Universe is just the way it is and understanding that has brought peace. Corporeal isn't forever after all.

As I honour your path Greenslade and every Spiritual pioneer sharing our reflections, for `our` footprints follow and honour the path of Spiritual Masters who came before us. In the hope that our steps may be a guide to those who follow. For what more may we do, but what we are doing, sharing self-in-reflection and discovering sameness in our difference, while enjoying some 'ethereal company'.
"Ethereal company." It is times like these I feel more connected to my Guide although I realise we're never really disconnected at all. But yes, within the context of duality and separation the sharing crosses the great gulf between Souls, making the Universe a smaller place yet a larger place at the same time. Often it's the little things that make the biggest difference.

7luminaries

17-11-2013, 04:22 PM

A beautiful exchange and thank you both for sharing it with us :hug3:
There is much here that many of us can relate to.

Peace & blessings,
7L

Papa Bear

18-11-2013, 06:58 PM

Hi Greenslade,
Something that was given to me very early on. "We are not just here for our own Journey but also for the Journey of others." As long as we are not one single person living a solitary Life on a desert island there is always the interaction, and for me the interaction has been paramount. One of the questions that came from that is what kind of Universe are we creating? Do we create an Universe where we seek recognition and reward? Rewards became quite empty, but the seeds Live and grow within others somethimes, and certainly within the Universe. It seems that for those that seek recognition and reward they are things that are never truly found, the closer one comes to them the further they slip away. As they say, "Fame is how you live on in the hearts of men." I don't seek recognition nor reward but if it makes the Universe a better place then that's all the reward there needs to be.
I can relate to the intention of your consideration, “I don't seek recognition nor reward but if it makes the Universe a better place then that's all the reward there needs to be.” Though we may consider how or when intention and instinct, may often find conflict when recognition is considered as a natural element of human nature. For in any sharing we have an instinct to reflect in recognition, while we may harbour higher intentions of reasoning. For if there be a confirmation in a recognition, then it`s worth may be beyond the limits of human ego`s mistranslation of its value
.
Interdependency within natures requires a natural element of recognition, as it harmonizes difference in the sameness of a recognized sharing. As `natures` reflect beyond the manifest elements of our universe, so they also contain similar reasoning for such recognition. Though the nature of human ego, can distract from what may be interpreted as self-limiting, nature can over-rule that misunderstanding of a human concern, and validate the true worth of a thing shared `because` of its recognition. From my perspective even the universe is more because of my recognition of its `being`.

Indeed a recognition of sameness in difference. What I am finding is that what is A and what is Z seems to be turning in on each other, the drawing of the bow on the violin making the strings resonate. Self and 'True Self' twisting and dancing around each other, the search for 'True Self' became the search for Self and they became one and the same.
And so it is, as it should be, the dance of varied perspectives of one as many, trying to be still long enough to remember the one. When `all` difference merges into sameness and self, itself, may immerse into the `one` reflected in many. Yet still, the value of the perception from A, may always reflect a glimpse of the Z, before it comes into alignment with the nature of time, when there is an alphabet to understand in evolution.

Perhaps this is the true nature of Spirituality, in Spiritual people not being a world apart from the 'non-spiritual'. It's strange sometimes though, because in people saying that separation is an illusion they create separation but don't see the unity within. Spiritual people and 'non-Spiritual' people simply express in different ways - the same as everyone else. Difference brings sameness brings difference, all is expression of Spirit on the human Journey. The wonder for me is the myriad of forms it takes, each creation in motion. For me sometimes the sharing is in the interaction, often things are shared that needs few words as we can touch the Soul of another, become a kindred Spirit in an instant. People don't have to be Spiritual to recognise that and sometimes the awareness is nothing more than a tiny spark, but it is there just the same. Expression takes many forms, perhaps more than we realise sometimes.
There is wisdom in your considerations, as labels often distract from the nature of the universality of sharing, of connectivity, of sameness in difference. For when there is no need of words, the heart can be experienced as sharing sameness with `all` different. Labels distract from the nature connectivity, but they remain our creation in communication to form connectivity. So we may recognize how we create our own obstacles, in all their wonderful colourful variation of translation and interpretation, when we free, and share, their expression. Are we not the most beautiful of enigma`s, as we run towards what we call out, to be, where we are standing still, observing each other? lol

Ah yes, now I understand. It has many forms and people tend to express their experiences of it differently but the place seems to remain the same.
As one, who has attended such experience would recognize in reflection. Labels distract from its nature, once again we share more in sameness Greenslade.

But who is Self? That seems to be the question that is coming through. Once upon a time Self was little old me, then there was a Soul and then a Spirit, aspects over aspect. Who is reflecting whom or does it really matter? There are at least three 'Selfs' reflecting all at the same time, each a reflection of the other, each smiling at each other.
Just as well then, that we are not psychologists, pondering on the many traits of conflicting characteristics; the human condition tries to marry together lol. As even a cake called self has many pieces, even those pieces have many ingredients. Best then, to ponder on the best possible position of observation to find, to consider all variation in mind, maybe of a third party kind.

One day I asked my Guide if I could perceive the Universe as he does, he laughed. I guess that means I don't have the faculties. While it would be nice to see the whole cake, the crumbs ain't so bad after all, but it's always good to know that the cake is a little bigger than it seems at first. The Universe is just the way it is and understanding that has brought peace. Corporeal isn't forever after all.
I would offer a consideration to your reflection, what if your Guide, was `your` Spirit? Would you understand why, the laugh? And why the nature of peace, may come from a `Spirits` reflection of the nature of the universe, abridged into the nature of corporeal understanding in intuitiveness, it`s just a consideration to ponder.

"Ethereal company." It is times like these I feel more connected to my Guide although I realise we're never really disconnected at all. But yes, within the context of duality and separation the sharing crosses the great gulf between Souls, making the Universe a smaller place yet a larger place at the same time. Often it's the little things that make the biggest difference.
There is no proclamation required, when the whisper of a feeling connection reflects interconnectivity, with Spiritual guidance or souls in the same flow, as even ethereal in nature may become a whispered sameness being shared. As those feelings may reflect more than any words can display.

Papa Bear

18-11-2013, 07:00 PM

Hi 7L,
A beautiful exchange and thank you both for sharing it with us
There is much here that many of us can relate to.

Peace & blessings,
7L
You remind me of the first time I followed a long conversation, between yourself and God-Like, for I felt like sharing,` your words here`, with you both, then. And though I hesitated to free that expression, I bless you for showing me how to, now. We can but learn from each other`s freed expressions, and be lifted when they are `recognized` more in sameness than difference. You guide by example 7L.

7luminaries

18-11-2013, 09:05 PM

:hug3: Back atcha PB, from A to Z!

Peace & blessings,
7L

Greenslade

21-11-2013, 10:04 AM

A beautiful exchange and thank you both for sharing it with us :hug3:
There is much here that many of us can relate to.

Peace & blessings,
7L
You're welcome, and thank you. May it inspire others to share and find sameness in their difference, perhaps even just the courage to share.

Hi Greenslade,

I can relate to the intention of your consideration, “I don't seek recognition nor reward but if it makes the Universe a better place then that's all the reward there needs to be.” Though we may consider how or when intention and instinct, may often find conflict when recognition is considered as a natural element of human nature. For in any sharing we have an instinct to reflect in recognition, while we may harbour higher intentions of reasoning. For if there be a confirmation in a recognition, then it`s worth may be beyond the limits of human ego`s mistranslation of its value
.
Interdependency within natures requires a natural element of recognition, as it harmonizes difference in the sameness of a recognized sharing. As `natures` reflect beyond the manifest elements of our universe, so they also contain similar reasoning for such recognition. Though the nature of human ego, can distract from what may be interpreted as self-limiting, nature can over-rule that misunderstanding of a human concern, and validate the true worth of a thing shared `because` of its recognition. From my perspective even the universe is more because of my recognition of its `being`.
I had a discussion with another member a while back, and in it they mentioned the "Death of the Author." The concept was that people tend to place their store in the author and not the words themselves, and pretty soon people are hailed as gurus even though their words may have stopped making sense - or had never made sense in the first place. The death of the author was about reading the words and giving the words the value, not the person that wrote them. But what if we killed the author within ourselves? Some people may tend to go with their minds when posting in these forums, perhaps thinking they have to come up with a reasoned argument in front of their peers or not wanting to come across as a clueless newbie. While the mind is the seat of reasoning, etc, the heart generates far more energy than the mind and for me personally, it's my connection to Spirit via emotions. Perhaps if more people 'killed' the author (the mind that seeks recognition), what differences would there be? As Pasal said, "The Heart has reasons that reason knows not of."

And so it is, as it should be, the dance of varied perspectives of one as many, trying to be still long enough to remember the one. When `all` difference merges into sameness and self, itself, may immerse into the `one` reflected in many. Yet still, the value of the perception from A, may always reflect a glimpse of the Z, before it comes into alignment with the nature of time, when there is an alphabet to understand in evolution.
As it's been said, "We are Spirit in amnesia." We have chosen to forget what we are for the duration of this Journey. Why? "If you want to understand Spirit you have to think like Spirit." Sameness takes on a different meaning when perceived through difference, when A-Z can be perceived at the same as A and Z, and Z and A.

There is wisdom in your considerations, as labels often distract from the nature of the universality of sharing, of connectivity, of sameness in difference. For when there is no need of words, the heart can be experienced as sharing sameness with `all` different. Labels distract from the nature connectivity, but they remain our creation in communication to form connectivity. So we may recognize how we create our own obstacles, in all their wonderful colourful variation of translation and interpretation, when we free, and share, their expression. Are we not the most beautiful of enigma`s, as we run towards what we call out, to be, where we are standing still, observing each other? lol
Well, we humans are a whacked-out bunch and that's for sure lol. What would the people from Pleiades or Lyra make of us sometimes? But then we create the barriers so we can knock them down again, we create the labels so we can tear them away - or leave them to separate as the case may be. We are a pretty amazing bunch, when we can run either towards or away from yet still stand still and observe while conveniently forgetting that it's all the same place after all.

As one, who has attended such experience would recognize in reflection. Labels distract from its nature, once again we share more in sameness Greenslade.
Indeed they do, but sometimes they are all we have. I have a favourite saying -"Look behind the mask." It means that there are usually Spiritual reasons for the things that happen in our everyday Lives, and we can see them if only we'd look just that little bit further than face value. Labels are the face value. Until such time as we can plug into each other's heads we're pretty much stuck with them, but we can at least try to look behind the mask of the label.

Just as well then, that we are not psychologists, pondering on the many traits of conflicting characteristics; the human condition tries to marry together lol. As even a cake called self has many pieces, even those pieces have many ingredients. Best then, to ponder on the best possible position of observation to find, to consider all variation in mind, maybe of a third party kind.
We had a silly conversation at work about Peter Pan and Tootles. Since then (about 12 years ago) I've been carrying around a bag of marbles in my pocket. It makes an interesting conversation piece, people tell me I'm crazy for carrying around a bag of marbles, but at least I know where my marbles are. It gives a happy thought but unlike Tootles the ability to fly out of the window evades me. Curses! lol. I also used to work in mental health and at one stage I was told I was schizophrenic. After a long chat with a shrink he thanked me for the opportunity to talk to a medium (I'm clairsentient). Coming from a mental health professional, psychology only sets a standard and those that deviate from that standard are considered to be insane.

I've found it difficult to take any other position of observation other than my own. That seems to be the nature of my Journey and an answer to the question that started this particular part of the quest. It is a choice, for the duration at least. Even if there is a seemingly great divide it can be reached across and we can remember again, for the first time.

I would offer a consideration to your reflection, what if your Guide, was `your` Spirit? Would you understand why, the laugh? And why the nature of peace, may come from a `Spirits` reflection of the nature of the universe, abridged into the nature of corporeal understanding in intuitiveness, it`s just a consideration to ponder.
Offer away. My Guide IS my Spirit - one of them anyway. And yes, I understand why he would laugh because in his shoes I would too. Oops. I already did lol. My intuitiveness led me to 'his existence' and is still leading me to understand its nature and how 'we' interact. I'm a sci-fi fan and one of the series I particularly like is Andromeda. In one of the episodes Dylan Hunt (the main character) finds himself where time loses any meaning and he meets himself coming back from the place he's going to. The Dylan that's going stands there in confusion while the one coming just shrugs and walks past. That's the kind of relationship I have with my Spirit. The microcosm of the macrocosm.

There is no proclamation required, when the whisper of a feeling connection reflects interconnectivity, with Spiritual guidance or souls in the same flow, as even ethereal in nature may become a whispered sameness being shared. As those feelings may reflect more than any words can display.
As I look behind the mask of the words I find Anam Cara.

Papa Bear

23-11-2013, 10:26 PM

I had a discussion with another member a while back, and in it they mentioned the "Death of the Author." The concept was that people tend to place their store in the author and not the words themselves, and pretty soon people are hailed as gurus even though their words may have stopped making sense - or had never made sense in the first place. The death of the author was about reading the words and giving the words the value, not the person that wrote them. But what if we killed the author within ourselves? Some people may tend to go with their minds when posting in these forums, perhaps thinking they have to come up with a reasoned argument in front of their peers or not wanting to come across as a clueless newbie. While the mind is the seat of reasoning, etc, the heart generates far more energy than the mind and for me personally, it's my connection to Spirit via emotions. Perhaps if more people 'killed' the author (the mind that seeks recognition), what differences would there be? As Pasal said, "The Heart has reasons that reason knows not of."
The human condition relies so much on acknowledgement, to define any part an individual plays in life. As maybe seeking recognition becomes a self- defined priority in most areas of shared experience. Though maybe on these forums we may have more opportunity to consider, “But what if we killed the author within ourselves?” As surely online communications make us more what we write in expression, than the person writing?

But are they not two aspects in reflection of each other? As the origin of the expression, may create insights to the author, and their understanding. For how else can one person come to understand another, if they only become what they express? Though you highlight what may differentiate the intellectual and emotional feeling elements of what may be expressed. And in principal I agree with your sentiment, as heart lead expressions certainly reflect the Spiritual, more than the intellect. While maybe it is an example of how perspective can be most informative, when all considered meaning available, may equalize the positives and negatives in the nature of what creates each. As heart and mind both have their strongest and weakest elements, as often we are a reflection of what we express.

As it's been said, "We are Spirit in amnesia." We have chosen to forget what we are for the duration of this Journey. Why? "If you want to understand Spirit you have to think like Spirit." Sameness takes on a different meaning when perceived through difference, when A-Z can be perceived at the same as A and Z, and Z and A.
That is an interesting way to put it. Though I would consider that it is the human suffering Spiritual amnesia, and it is nature which determines our capacity to `remember` what we have seemingly forgotten. I would consider the ethereal element regarding, how a human being may understand the Spirit. As `all` connectivity in memory or experience with the Spirit of existence, unfolds within that ethereal nature of human being. For rather than thinking like a Spirit, maybe it`s more like `feeling` what being Spiritual means.

"Sameness takes on a different meaning when perceived through difference, when A-Z can be perceived at the same as A and Z, and Z and A” And in such a consideration we may recognize what manifest in two varied natures. One manifest and human, the other more ethereal/Spiritual, and maybe realize that challenge is to find where they meet. For from that third party position of observation, maybe a human being may understand that there is a Spirit to remember. As an alphabet may be understood more holistically when both A and Z become the position we observe from, simultaneously from two varied natures.

Indeed they do, but sometimes they are all we have. I have a favourite saying -"Look behind the mask." It means that there are usually Spiritual reasons for the things that happen in our everyday Lives, and we can see them if only we'd look just that little bit further than face value. Labels are the face value. Until such time as we can plug into each other's heads we're pretty much stuck with them, but we can at least try to look behind the mask of the label.
I agree, for it is said that the eyes are` the window to our soul`. Though sharing the same resonance of `feeling` may be more appropriate than getting into each-others heads, I think we have tried that one long enough lol. While labels have fascinated me for longer than I can remember, as identifying how many reflect the same thing, has become a favourite pastime of mine. A touch of sameness in difference with labels, presents the most interesting insights to their limitations. For while we may depend upon them, there comes a point where we may understand beyond their symbol, when realizing what they symbolize.

We had a silly conversation at work about Peter Pan and Tootles. Since then (about 12 years ago) I've been carrying around a bag of marbles in my pocket. It makes an interesting conversation piece, people tell me I'm crazy for carrying around a bag of marbles, but at least I know where my marbles are. It gives a happy thought but unlike Tootles the ability to fly out of the window evades me. Curses! lol. I also used to work in mental health and at one stage I was told I was schizophrenic. After a long chat with a shrink he thanked me for the opportunity to talk to a medium (I'm clairsentient). Coming from a mental health professional, psychology only sets a standard and those that deviate from that standard are considered to be insane.

I've found it difficult to take any other position of observation other than my own. That seems to be the nature of my Journey and an answer to the question that started this particular part of the quest. It is a choice, for the duration at least. Even if there is a seemingly great divide it can be reached across and we can remember again, for the first time.
“Even if there is a seemingly great divide it can be reached across and we can remember again, for the first time.” That may make you the first Spirit who knows where his marbles are lol. Though the schizophrenic question is a sweet enigma for the Spiritual medium, and one no student of psychology may ever unravel, while the mediums have to, to become Spiritual mediums.

Offer away. My Guide IS my Spirit - one of them anyway. And yes, I understand why he would laugh because in his shoes I would too. Oops. I already did lol. My intuitiveness led me to 'his existence' and is still leading me to understand its nature and how 'we' interact. I'm a sci-fi fan and one of the series I particularly like is Andromeda. In one of the episodes Dylan Hunt (the main character) finds himself where time loses any meaning and he meets himself coming back from the place he's going to. The Dylan that's going stands there in confusion while the one coming just shrugs and walks past. That's the kind of relationship I have with my Spirit. The microcosm of the macrocosm.
Sounds like the currents of an alphabet, with flows coming from both directions of A and Z at the same time. As is the microcosm and macrocosm a good reflection, in all natures of consideration of the one and the whole, in sameness or difference. Though I am drawn to ask, what is `intuitiveness`, that it may bring Spirit to a human consciousness?

As I look behind the mask of the words I find Anam Cara.
Once again we share more in sameness than difference Greenslade.

Greenslade

24-11-2013, 12:15 PM

The human condition relies so much on acknowledgement, to define any part an individual plays in life. As maybe seeking recognition becomes a self- defined priority in most areas of shared experience. Though maybe on these forums we may have more opportunity to consider, “But what if we killed the author within ourselves?” As surely online communications make us more what we write in expression, than the person writing?

But are they not two aspects in reflection of each other? As the origin of the expression, may create insights to the author, and their understanding. For how else can one person come to understand another, if they only become what they express? Though you highlight what may differentiate the intellectual and emotional feeling elements of what may be expressed. And in principal I agree with your sentiment, as heart lead expressions certainly reflect the Spiritual, more than the intellect. While maybe it is an example of how perspective can be most informative, when all considered meaning available, may equalize the positives and negatives in the nature of what creates each. As heart and mind both have their strongest and weakest elements, as often we are a reflection of what we express.
We all seek recognition of some kind, perhaps a vestige of the herd instincts within human nature but the question is what recognition do we seek? Much has changed in these forums, but I remember a time when some people would seek to be recognised as gurus and 'ego death' took on a different meaning, it was still there but at a different level. The energies have changed and you can't take the human out of Spirituality after all. Perhaps there is a sign that there is an evolution going on, or perhaps a revolution as people begin to walk away from the chains of dogma - personal or otherwise.

The meaning for 'death of the author' for me was to look to the message rather than the person that wrote it. I tend to 'kill the author within', for a time put aside the human and at least try and think like Spirit. For me these forums and this discussion is an expression of what I feel inside, often trying to find reason and understanding by battering away on the keyboard. It seems to spin around though, the expression is as Spiritual as I can make it but there are words for the human as well. Spirituality for me isn't a mental exercise, it doesn't rely on how much knowledge I have or how much logic I can bring to an argument but it's an expression of what I Am inside. Spiritual is as Spiritual does, not as Spiritual says it is.

That is an interesting way to put it. Though I would consider that it is the human suffering Spiritual amnesia, and it is nature which determines our capacity to `remember` what we have seemingly forgotten. I would consider the ethereal element regarding, how a human being may understand the Spirit. As `all` connectivity in memory or experience with the Spirit of existence, unfolds within that ethereal nature of human being. For rather than thinking like a Spirit, maybe it`s more like `feeling` what being Spiritual means.

"Sameness takes on a different meaning when perceived through difference, when A-Z can be perceived at the same as A and Z, and Z and A” And in such a consideration we may recognize what manifest in two varied natures. One manifest and human, the other more ethereal/Spiritual, and maybe realize that challenge is to find where they meet. For from that third party position of observation, maybe a human being may understand that there is a Spirit to remember. As an alphabet may be understood more holistically when both A and Z become the position we observe from, simultaneously from two varied natures.
That's what is meant by the term, that we humans are Spirits who have chosen to forget. But I can understand the reasons for choosing to forget, in that it brings so many things into the equation. For Spirit, being deaf, dumb, blind and only two braincells to rub together (lol) must be a bit of an adventure and an experience. Thinking like Spirit is just a term I use, often people ask questions or try to understand things that don't make sense to human thinking, but when thinking like Spirit they begin to understand a little better. It helped me in the old days and changed my outlook on Spirituality slowly, but things have changed.

Ah yes, this is the discovery. I don't hold much stock in the simple passing on of knowledge. "We are Spirit on a human Journey." Well yes, that's as maybe but what does that mean to me, personally? It's when that translates into the 'real world' and experience and understanding comes, this is the challenge I am going through right now. It's by experiencing where they meet and how they meet - Spirit and human. One already knows, one is discovering and is experiencing a little more of what it's like to perceive the Universe in a different way. First it was the understanding that there were two varied natures, now there is the experience of how those two natures meet from a human perspective.

I agree, for it is said that the eyes are` the window to our soul`. Though sharing the same resonance of `feeling` may be more appropriate than getting into each-others heads, I think we have tried that one long enough lol. While labels have fascinated me for longer than I can remember, as identifying how many reflect the same thing, has become a favourite pastime of mine. A touch of sameness in difference with labels, presents the most interesting insights to their limitations. For while we may depend upon them, there comes a point where we may understand beyond their symbol, when realizing what they symbolize.
Our thoughts have existence, they are little blobs of energy that float around in the Universe the same as we do. If we can communicate with each other, can we not communicate with those energy blobs? Perhaps we already do, when we look behind the masks of words and labels we can find what resonates with us, and what resonates is our energy and the energy of the thoughts behind the words. There comes a point when words are simply not enough and they seem quite inadequate or there is little point in using them any more. Perhaps the whole point of using labels and words is to transcend them, to remember what we have forgotten.

“Even if there is a seemingly great divide it can be reached across and we can remember again, for the first time.” That may make you the first Spirit who knows where his marbles are lol. Though the schizophrenic question is a sweet enigma for the Spiritual medium, and one no student of psychology may ever unravel, while the mediums have to, to become Spiritual mediums.
The first Spirit who knows where his marbles are :-) That would make an interesting first for sure. Maybe Spirit has lost its marbles in coming here lol. Strangely though, there's a part of me that screams out 'it doesn't have to be this way', that people are putting themselves through this existence for no need whatsoever.

I can't talk for all Spiritual mediums, but in my development classes we were taught to recognise a Spirit link, the connection wasn't of the mind. Psychics tend to use more of the mind and intuition - they read body language and the like. With mediums it's coming directly via Spirit and most don't have any problems differentiating Spirit from mind. For me there are very definite sensations between the thinking and the mediumistic.

Sounds like the currents of an alphabet, with flows coming from both directions of A and Z at the same time. As is the microcosm and macrocosm a good reflection, in all natures of consideration of the one and the whole, in sameness or difference. Though I am drawn to ask, what is `intuitiveness`, that it may bring Spirit to a human consciousness?
That's quite a good question actually. Perhaps in very simple terms it's that voice inside, the something that draws or guides in a way that may not always make sense to the mind at first glance. Another terms may be Gnosis, some know without knowing how they know. There has always been something or someone 'in here', it seems to go beyond intuitiveness. Often I follow my intuition and find myself doing things for no particular obvious reason but sometimes I I feel is different, as though there's an overlap of two existences within the same place. It's hard to put into words really. I don't try to analyse it nor define it but simply let it be for its own reasons.

Once again we share more in sameness than difference Greenslade.
It seems the sameness has a little more scope than the words in a thread :-)

Papa Bear

25-11-2013, 11:27 PM

Hi Greenslade,
We all seek recognition of some kind, perhaps a vestige of the herd instincts within human nature but the question is what recognition do we seek? Much has changed in these forums, but I remember a time when some people would seek to be recognised as gurus and 'ego death' took on a different meaning, it was still there but at a different level. The energies have changed and you can't take the human out of Spirituality after all. Perhaps there is a sign that there is an evolution going on, or perhaps a revolution as people begin to walk away from the chains of dogma - personal or otherwise.

The meaning for 'death of the author' for me was to look to the message rather than the person that wrote it. I tend to 'kill the author within', for a time put aside the human and at least try and think like Spirit. For me these forums and this discussion is an expression of what I feel inside, often trying to find reason and understanding by battering away on the keyboard. It seems to spin around though, the expression is as Spiritual as I can make it but there are words for the human as well. Spirituality for me isn't a mental exercise, it doesn't rely on how much knowledge I have or how much logic I can bring to an argument but it's an expression of what I Am inside. Spiritual is as Spiritual does, not as Spiritual says it is.
There is much to reflect, in reflection of such an outer and inner expression, combined in such insightful sameness in their difference. Maybe the first consideration could be “but the question is what recognition do we seek?” For we may consider what the ultimate recognition sought, may be, if not the self-recognition/self-acknowledgement of the Spirit of self. As that recognition is a remembering of what has been forgotten.

For what `was` in the forums, and what `is` in the forums, may compare in levels as a term of recognition. But whether the birth of a guru or the death of an ego, what `is` now, reflects more as, “The energies have changed and you can't take the human out of Spirituality after all.” In an understanding of energy frequency `changes` in the labels of vocabulary, which reflect more behind their currents and flows, in the clear perception of the human ego. More harmonized than opposite. Reflecting why you cannot take the `Spirituality` out of the human.

For it is that, which may consider understanding, that, “perhaps there is a sign that there is an evolution going on,” both within a forum, and within self-reflection. Flowing into the potential realization that “perhaps a revolution as people begin to walk away from the chains of dogma - personal or otherwise,” When reflected as self-experience.

While we may consider when the `message` reflects the person who expressed it, when rather than “put aside the human”, we may use their/our third party position of observation. To recognize or realize when the message is `self`-expressed, what may be observed as `feeling` “like Spirit” may be the recognition of why, “For me these forums and this discussion is an expression of what I feel inside,” for it reflects sharing, self-in-reflection.

While “trying to find reason and understanding by battering away on the keyboard” remains the abridgement we are all tied to. As understanding why, “the expression is as Spiritual as I can make it” may become the `message`, as a reason why, “there are words for the human as well.” For they may establish an understanding in the human self-in-reflection, that, “Spirituality for me isn't a mental exercise” But rather, “an expression of what I Am inside.” For often when “Spiritual is as Spiritual does,” it can be exactly “as Spiritual says it is.”

That's what is meant by the term, that we humans are Spirits who have chosen to forget. But I can understand the reasons for choosing to forget, in that it brings so many things into the equation. For Spirit, being deaf, dumb, blind and only two braincells to rub together (lol) must be a bit of an adventure and an experience.
Understanding why a `Spirit` chooses to experience the limitations of the human condition, is for the Spirit to know and understand. While `being` the human in evolution, supplies a nature of understanding, maybe even a Spirit cannot know, unless they abridge and adapt into its nature of life and its limitations. While the natures that interconnect between both human and Spirit natures, hold the means by which a human ego, may discover beyond itself.

Thinking like Spirit is just a term I use, often people ask questions or try to understand things that don't make sense to human thinking, but when thinking like Spirit they begin to understand a little better. It helped me in the old days and changed my outlook on Spirituality slowly, but things have changed.
If our cup is no longer filled by past lessons and their understanding, then the new may have somewhere to arrive and settle. As thinking, may dissolve into a purer `sense` of what understanding may become, when the mind of Spirit transitions into the `feeling` Spirit. For in those feelings, telepathy may become empathy, which may become intuition. As then the intuition of the human persona may reflect the `feeling` nature of their Spirit.

Ah yes, this is the discovery. I don't hold much stock in the simple passing on of knowledge. "We are Spirit on a human Journey." Well yes, that's as maybe but what does that mean to me, personally? It's when that translates into the 'real world' and experience and understanding comes, this is the challenge I am going through right now. It's by experiencing where they meet and how they meet - Spirit and human. One already knows, one is discovering and is experiencing a little more of what it's like to perceive the Universe in a different way. First it was the understanding that there were two varied natures, now there is the experience of how those two natures meet from a human perspective.
If we consider, that `where`, the human/Spirit meet, is neither here or there, but somewhere in-between. Then from a human perspective, that in-between is `not` simply here, in human real-world terms. So the target moves from the comfort of human sensed/ psychological understanding, and into a more subtle sensitivity. One that is neither, human or Spiritual by nature, but of a nature which interconnects them both.

I refer to it as the ethereal condition, in which, the human condition resonates as a subtle body, housing chakra sensitivity. So `all` interconnectivity between the Spirit and human conditions, are abridged and adapted `through` that chakra, ethereal sensitivity. And that means, that the human perspective requires a human translation, of what may become recognized, as the unconditional intuitiveness of ethereal chakra sensitivity.

The problems become a consideration of perception in focus. As that natural mechanism of sensitivity, is ignored in preference to the human interpretation of the `end result`.

So as the mediumship, channelling, healing, divination or psychic phenomena manifests results of human association. The sensitivity which produces both those results, and a reflection of `where` the Spirit and human `meet, may become secondary in focus and perception. Changing that perception and focus, onto/into that subtle sensitivity, may be the first step to recognizing or realizing the reality of an ethereal sensitivity, awaiting abridgement into human real-life understanding.

Our thoughts have existence, they are little blobs of energy that float around in the Universe the same as we do. If we can communicate with each other, can we not communicate with those energy blobs? Perhaps we already do, when we look behind the masks of words and labels we can find what resonates with us, and what resonates is our energy and the energy of the thoughts behind the words. There comes a point when words are simply not enough and they seem quite inadequate or there is little point in using them any more. Perhaps the whole point of using labels and words is to transcend them, to remember what we have forgotten.
What if those `thought energies` were `feeling energies`? And it was not within our manifest universe that their `blobs` resonated, but rather, those `blobs` of feeling energy are what `structures` part of the ethereal condition. As `every feeling, from here and (spiritually) there, for `all` time that has ever been, still resonates there. Would the ethereal condition come into any more focus? Remembering that no feelings are the words which identify them, yet human understanding depends on those words as labels, to associate and reflect them when sharing their inner reflection, into human real-life conditions.

Such a consideration, then offers an opportunity to ponder, if Spirit `feelings` as energy blobs, resonated as part of the ethereal condition. Could our chakra, ethereal sensitivity, not communicate or `resonate` with those energy, feeling, blobs, of Spiritual reflective expressions? Does the perception join focus if considering a more `fluid` condition of interconnectivity, where two feelings may find empathy in the `same` resonation? Being within the condition, in which the Spirit and human may meet, in-between the natures of feeling sensitivity?

The first Spirit who knows where his marbles are :-) That would make an interesting first for sure. Maybe Spirit has lost its marbles in coming here lol. Strangely though, there's a part of me that screams out 'it doesn't have to be this way', that people are putting themselves through this existence for no need whatsoever.
Where is the beauty, creativity, value in the nature of this life, both within self and external of self in-reflection? Chosen perspective identifies the unique endless arrays of natural splendour, which pervades life`s experience, if we but chose its observation. For those observations in experiential awareness, sameness in difference, may be exactly the reason any Spirit chose to seek out the experience, we call human life.

I can't talk for all Spiritual mediums, but in my development classes we were taught to recognise a Spirit link, the connection wasn't of the mind. Psychics tend to use more of the mind and intuition - they read body language and the like. With mediums it's coming directly via Spirit and most don't have any problems differentiating Spirit from mind. For me there are very definite sensations between the thinking and the mediumistic.
Dare I say, I can talk for `all` Spiritual mediums, for I understand the nature which creates their Spiritual nature in mediumship. As I reflected in the Spiritual development circles, I took responsibility for leading, `follow what you feel`, as your mind will follow interpreting by nature. The Spirit link is a harmonization in balanced shared `feelings`. What thoughts follow are the result of that connectivity in `feeling`.

How mediums/channels and psychics are cross referenced, is more associated with their final result, rather than the means by which they `access` the mechanisms which provide those results. I am less interested by nature, in what separates them in difference, than what joins them in `sameness`. For they may `all` be glimpses of a passage towards the place where Spirit and human feelings `meet`.

That's quite a good question actually. Perhaps in very simple terms it's that voice inside, the something that draws or guides in a way that may not always make sense to the mind at first glance. Another terms may be Gnosis, some know without knowing how they know. There has always been something or someone 'in here', it seems to go beyond intuitiveness. Often I follow my intuition and find myself doing things for no particular obvious reason but sometimes I I feel is different, as though there's an overlap of two existences within the same place. It's hard to put into words really. I don't try to analyse it nor define it but simply let it be for its own reasons.
“Gnosis, some know without knowing how they know.” I have referred to this as `understanding what we do not know` for that is the human experience of Gnosis. As Gnosis is awareness, combining both knowledge and understanding requiring no worded translation, while understanding the Spirit of self, lacks the knowledge yet to be confirmed by the nature of human experience.

“There has always been something or someone 'in here', it seems to go beyond intuitiveness.” As the Spirit does just that, but it is through intuitiveness, that, that recognition may be felt to be real.

“Often I follow my intuition and find myself doing things for no particular obvious reason but sometimes I I feel is different, as though there's an overlap of two existences within the same place. It's hard to put into words really.” Unless the words have already been expressed, but not self-reflected. Since that `same place` may be where they meet
.
“I don't try to analyse it nor define it but simply let it be for its own reasons.” Then why does your heart reflect a yearning for its understanding? The nature of its experience relies upon `going with that flow`, but the mind yearns for the understanding in translation. If we do not, analyse the most significant `meeting point` in our Spiritual/human existence, then we must remain content with not understanding it, from a human perspective.

It seems the sameness has a little more scope than the words in a thread :-)
Being the glue that connects existence together, being the nature of Spiritual harmony in connectivity, being where `everybody/thing` meets, sameness is what `we` share, in more than the words we express through.

Hope I have not over-expressed Greenslade, for I could do no less in respect of your honest insightful enquiring self-reflections.

blackraven

26-11-2013, 04:27 PM

We all seek recognition of some kind, perhaps a vestige of the herd instincts within human nature but the question is what recognition do we seek? Much has changed in these forums, but I remember a time when some people would seek to be recognised as gurus and 'ego death' took on a different meaning, it was still there but at a different level. The energies have changed and you can't take the human out of Spirituality after all. Perhaps there is a sign that there is an evolution going on, or perhaps a revolution as people begin to walk away from the chains of dogma - personal or otherwise.

The meaning for 'death of the author' for me was to look to the message rather than the person that wrote it. I tend to 'kill the author within', for a time put aside the human and at least try and think like Spirit. For me these forums and this discussion is an expression of what I feel inside, often trying to find reason and understanding by battering away on the keyboard. It seems to spin around though, the expression is as Spiritual as I can make it but there are words for the human as well. Spirituality for me isn't a mental exercise, it doesn't rely on how much knowledge I have or how much logic I can bring to an argument but it's an expression of what I Am inside. Spiritual is as Spiritual does, not as Spiritual says it is.

That's what is meant by the term, that we humans are Spirits who have chosen to forget. But I can understand the reasons for choosing to forget, in that it brings so many things into the equation. For Spirit, being deaf, dumb, blind and only two braincells to rub together (lol) must be a bit of an adventure and an experience. Thinking like Spirit is just a term I use, often people ask questions or try to understand things that don't make sense to human thinking, but when thinking like Spirit they begin to understand a little better. It helped me in the old days and changed my outlook on Spirituality slowly, but things have changed.

Ah yes, this is the discovery. I don't hold much stock in the simple passing on of knowledge. "We are Spirit on a human Journey." Well yes, that's as maybe but what does that mean to me, personally? It's when that translates into the 'real world' and experience and understanding comes, this is the challenge I am going through right now. It's by experiencing where they meet and how they meet - Spirit and human. One already knows, one is discovering and is experiencing a little more of what it's like to perceive the Universe in a different way. First it was the understanding that there were two varied natures, now there is the experience of how those two natures meet from a human perspective.

Our thoughts have existence, they are little blobs of energy that float around in the Universe the same as we do. If we can communicate with each other, can we not communicate with those energy blobs? Perhaps we already do, when we look behind the masks of words and labels we can find what resonates with us, and what resonates is our energy and the energy of the thoughts behind the words. There comes a point when words are simply not enough and they seem quite inadequate or there is little point in using them any more. Perhaps the whole point of using labels and words is to transcend them, to remember what we have forgotten.

The first Spirit who knows where his marbles are :-) That would make an interesting first for sure. Maybe Spirit has lost its marbles in coming here lol. Strangely though, there's a part of me that screams out 'it doesn't have to be this way', that people are putting themselves through this existence for no need whatsoever.

I can't talk for all Spiritual mediums, but in my development classes we were taught to recognise a Spirit link, the connection wasn't of the mind. Psychics tend to use more of the mind and intuition - they read body language and the like. With mediums it's coming directly via Spirit and most don't have any problems differentiating Spirit from mind. For me there are very definite sensations between the thinking and the mediumistic.

That's quite a good question actually. Perhaps in very simple terms it's that voice inside, the something that draws or guides in a way that may not always make sense to the mind at first glance. Another terms may be Gnosis, some know without knowing how they know. There has always been something or someone 'in here', it seems to go beyond intuitiveness. Often I follow my intuition and find myself doing things for no particular obvious reason but sometimes I I feel is different, as though there's an overlap of two existences within the same place. It's hard to put into words really. I don't try to analyse it nor define it but simply let it be for its own reasons.

It seems the sameness has a little more scope than the words in a thread :-)

Greenslade - I have not been able to follow this discussion from beginning to end, but read through a few posts and this one that you wrote resonated with me. I especially liked...

"Spirituality for me isn't a mental exercise, it doesn't rely on how much knowledge I have or how much logic I can bring to an argument but it's an expression of what I Am inside. Spiritual is as Spiritual does, not as Spiritual says it is."

Some people communicate and things get lost in the translation and some, like you, just allow others to feel deeply in response to what's written. It makes no matter if others are on target or not when the message is received without interjecting ones own thoughts. Just simply reading and thinking more than you planned to, is all it's about.

Life often is more understanding when I sit back and read than when I jump in and give my thoughts. Today is one of those days. :smile:

Blackraven