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islamisabsolutetruth
05-11-2010, 12:34 AM
The Absolute Truth

Islam, a monotheistic religion, is the Absolute Truth. Islam means submission to God (Allah). People who follow Islam are Muslims. There are around 1.5 billions Muslims all over the world. Majority of Muslims are non-Arabs.

Islamic Belief:


There is only one God (Allah), the Creator of everything that exists in this universe, including all beings. God does not have any shape or form.

God (Allah) does not have any son, daughter, family member or partner. He is only one and unique. And there is none comparable to Him.

God (Allah) accepts only direct prayer/worship to Him without any mediator.

God (Allah) forgives all kinds of sins if a person repents to Him directly.

God (Allah) sent messengers and prophets with His Message (divine Books) to guide all of mankind.

Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are some of the messengers/prophets of Allah (peace be upon all of them).

All human are born equally and sinless. They all belong to God (Allah). They are created for worshiping God (Allah).

On the Day of Judgment, God (Allah) will resurrect and judge all of the mankind based on their beliefs and actions. Then, He will reward the righteous people with Heaven, and punish the wrong doers with Hell.
How to become a Muslim:

Just say and believe: There is only one God (Allah), and Muhammad is the final messenger and prophet of God (Allah). ----- (With this belief, you just became a Muslim, congratulations!!!)

To read the Book of God (Allah) Ė Quran, search for Ė Quran Translation by Yusuf Ali


Other Beliefs:


Quran (the message from Allah) was revealed for all of mankind for guidance.
God (Allah) created angels for His services.
All human beings must be treated with respect regardless of their beliefs, race, gender and other differences since they all belong to God (Allah).
God (Allah) forgives the person who forgives other beings.

Shim
05-11-2010, 12:57 AM
Hello islamisabsolutetruth,

So the term "God" is basically saying the same thing linguistically: referring to the uncreated Creator of the unvierse. When using the term God in this fashion the major religions seem almost identical. Is it true though that the Bible was already written in its canocial form when Muhammed A.D. 570-632 rejected it and created a system that changed the nature and attributes of God?

ete233
05-11-2010, 12:59 AM
the only 'absolute truth' there is, is that, there is something(a universe) rather then nothingness 'the void', which is debatable

psychoslice
05-11-2010, 02:09 AM
Truth cannot be found in any scriptures or organised religion, once you organize the truth you kill it. Truth is what we truly are, I am the truth when I have Realized that my true SELF is pure Consciousness or God as most call it, to believe that the truth is in any writings is like eating the menu and not what it ordered for you. Because so many belief systems believe they and only they have the truth is the reason for so many wars and killings throughout the ages. The more one adheres to the belief that they own the truth the more violent they are, we need more that lives and and let shine the truth through love and love only.

Kapitan_Prien
05-11-2010, 02:16 AM
I find it interesting that both Islam and Judaism believe that human beings are born free of sin...yet Christianity has 'original sin'.

Unless I'm wrong about that...but if not...I do find it intriguing...and it would make me wonder when the whole 'original sin' thing really came about.

Rah nam
05-11-2010, 07:10 AM
I don't belief and wish you well
Regards

3dnow
05-11-2010, 09:35 AM
Just say and believe: There is only one God (Allah), and Muhammad is the final messenger and prophet of God (Allah). ----- (With this belief, you just became a Muslim, congratulations!!!)

So no personal development, no effort, no spiritual work, just blame satan, fear Allah, and go to heaven for eternity. I don't believe that sorry.

Those who die baby go to heaven (we are born with no sin), those who struggle with life may go to hell? I wish I died when I was 3 months in this case?

I would rather seek and believe in my true self and all these fears won't help.

Tell me something, if you don't forgive yourself who cares Allah forgives you?

Also islam says that angels worship human. I find this is an horrible idea. I have an angel with me in my journey (we have telepathic connection) and I love her so much.

3dnow

(sorry if it sounds like I'm personally attacking you, not at all, in my journey I'm trying to let go these religious ideas so I'm interested in it) :hug:

din
05-11-2010, 09:08 PM
Truth cannot be found in any scriptures or organised religion, once you organize the truth you kill it. Truth is what we truly are, I am the truth when I have Realized that my true SELF is pure Consciousness or God as most call it, to believe that the truth is in any writings is like eating the menu and not what it ordered for you. Because so many belief systems believe they and only they have the truth is the reason for so many wars and killings throughout the ages. The more one adheres to the belief that they own the truth the more violent they are, we need more that lives and and let shine the truth through love and love only.

A great statement in this thread called...

The Absolute Truth :D

islamisabsolutetruth
06-11-2010, 03:38 AM
I find it interesting that both Islam and Judaism believe that human beings are born free of sin...yet Christianity has 'original sin'.

Unless I'm wrong about that...but if not...I do find it intriguing...and it would make me wonder when the whole 'original sin' thing really came about.


You will not see the Trinity either. Abraham, Moses and Muhammad's (peace be upon all of them) main message were: there is only one God, and worship Him alone.

Description of Allah (God) in the Quran:

Translation: Surah 112: Al-Ikhlas (The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of God)


In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. Say: He is God, the One and Only;

2. God, the Eternal, Absolute;

3. He does not beget, nor is He begotten;

4. And there is none comparable to Him.

pre-dawn
06-11-2010, 07:56 AM
How to become a Muslim:

Just say and believe: There is only one God (Allah), and Muhammad is the final messenger and prophet of God (Allah). ----- (With this belief, you just became a Muslim, congratulations!!!) I can already hear the howls of protest when I am going to reveal that I am actually the most recent messenger of God. You might not believe it for now but it might eventually dawn on you.

psychoslice
06-11-2010, 08:09 AM
I can already hear the howls of protest when I am going to reveal that I am actually the most recent messenger of God. You might not believe it for now but it might eventually dawn on you.
I've been a messenger of God for years but I don't make a song and dance about it lol.

islamisabsolutetruth
06-11-2010, 05:22 PM
So no personal development, no effort, no spiritual work, just blame satan, fear Allah, and go to heaven for eternity. I don't believe that sorry.


I would rather seek and believe in my true self and all these fears won't help.

Tell me something, if you don't forgive yourself who cares Allah forgives you?

Also islam says that angels worship human. I find this is an horrible idea. I have an angel with me in my journey (we have telepathic connection) and I love her so much.

:hug:

Just fearing Allah will not help someone to go to heaven for eternity. Allah is the Truth Judge, and He will judge people based on their beliefs and actions. Beliefs without actions is called hypocrite and they will be in the bottom of the Hell.

Allah wants us to forgive ourselves, that is the most kind thing that we can do to ourselves.


Muslims donít belief that angels worshiped human. All worship is due to Allah (God) alone from all of His creations including all beings, sun, moon, stars. Angels only can worship Allah alone. They donít have free will like human. They have only one option, they only can follow the commands of Allah.

Elijah
06-11-2010, 05:35 PM
Just fearing Allah will not help someone to go to heaven for eternity.
Allah is the Truth Judge, and He will judge people based on their beliefs and actions.
Beliefs without actions is called hypocrite and they will be in the bottom of the Hell.Uuuummmmm??? :confused3:

3dnow
06-11-2010, 06:29 PM
Hi, :hug3:

Thanks for your reply.

Just fearing Allah will not help someone to go to heaven for eternity. Allah is the Truth Judge, and He will judge people based on their beliefs and actions. Beliefs without actions is called hypocrite and they will be in the bottom of the Hell.

So if I am a muslim but not a good one I am going to hell because I'm hypocrite?

I believe there is no such thing as hell even if you kill someone. World is a crazy place. Who knows what happened to you that you came to the point to kill someone. There is no judgement. There is compassion instead.

Religious view is completely upside down in my opinion.


Allah wants us to forgive ourselves, that is the most kind thing that we can do to ourselves.


OK. I also believe that this is important. My difference is that I believe this is enough. God (or Allah) did not judge us (at all). He only has compassion for us. We are already doing a good job judging ourselves.

BTW, the only thing I personally like about islam is the idea of formless God.


Muslims donít belief that angels worshiped human. All worship is due to Allah (God) alone from all of His creations including all beings, sun, moon, stars. Angels only can worship Allah alone. They donít have free will like human. They have only one option, they only can follow the commands of Allah.


As far as I know "Allah commanded all of the angels to bow down before Adam (the first Human). Satan, full of jealousy, refused to obey God's command (from wikipedia article on Satan). "

There is really something wrong here. We should respect angels and be really grateful. I am all except superior to an angel lol. I personally believe angels are angels because they choose to be. They are that wonderful.

I sincerely know that you are posting these messages for my good. I want to do the same, really. I hope one day you start trusting the universe and let go all your fears. There is no real love in religion if you think seriously.

3dnow

Kaere
06-11-2010, 06:45 PM
I've moved this thread into a more appropriate forum "islam".

din
06-11-2010, 06:47 PM
Just fearing Allah will not help someone to go to heaven for eternity. Allah is the Truth Judge, and He will judge people based on their beliefs and actions. Beliefs without actions is called hypocrite and they will be in the bottom of the Hell.

Allah wants us to forgive ourselves, that is the most kind thing that we can do to ourselves.


Muslims donít belief that angels worshiped human. All worship is due to Allah (God) alone from all of His creations including all beings, sun, moon, stars. Angels only can worship Allah alone. They donít have free will like human. They have only one option, they only can follow the commands of Allah.




Allah wants us to forgive ourselves for judging ourselves and other people.

There is only Allah, and Allah is everyone and everything.

Judgement is what divides us, when we are actually One.

Be aware of all your judgements and all your thoughts, notice how they divide and cause conflict, in a world of wholeness and love.

Royalite
31-01-2011, 09:04 PM
I'm going to revive this thread possibly for understanding (those with understanding, please share).

Some of the stuff from the original post makes sense to me. Now in terms of Christianity and "original sin" (someone mentioned it above), I don't know where exactly that originated to the point where every person is born sinful. I keep reading the Bible and I don't really know where people are getting this. I just looked it up...it's Paul. Maybe what was said by Paul was misinterpreted or something...:icon_frown:

I find it interesting that it is taught that the Qu'ran is absolute truth just as the Bible is preached that it is absolute truth, etc. It almost makes it impossible for people who truly want to learn to learn without fear of offending. And when you throw hell in there...oh boy! Now if Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all recognize the same monotheism and the existence of one God (which means they are all worshipping the same God), why then would they war?

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
02-02-2011, 01:26 PM
:icon_eek: what the.....I go off for a couple of days and this happens, islamisabsolutetruth I'll PM you.

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
02-02-2011, 02:14 PM
wait a minute, this thread is 2 months old. :frown:

This is really frustrating, with respect to islamisabsolutetruth, throwing off a couple of statements with disregard to their affect isn't how we do this.

If anyone wishes to discuss anything about Islam, I will be happy to do that in a new thread or PM me If you wish, please feel free to express your thoughts, ask questions, be direct if you want, there is also Malihe who is an older member here, she and I will be pleased to discuss anything you want.:smile:

salaam
Jiraiya

Nader
07-02-2011, 11:36 PM
I testify that there is no god but God (Allah),and I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God (Allah).

pre-dawn
08-02-2011, 01:41 AM
I testify that there is no god but God (Allah),and I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God (Allah).

How do you know all these things?

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
08-02-2011, 12:01 PM
that's a long story, what do you believe?

Time
08-02-2011, 04:02 PM
If no one can compare themselves to allah, then how can people justify killing in the name of him? ( im not picking on islam here, many people have "justified" killing in the name of god).

Killing another human is in most religions a godly act, so how can islam justify a human doing godly acts, when no one ( by the rules of islam) compare themselves to god??

7luminaries
08-02-2011, 08:34 PM
Time that is so wrong...how do you justify this statement? I hestitate to LOL...but srsly...


Killing another human is in most religions a godly act


BTW as I understood...and others here can correct me...the true jihad is the one that takes place internally...between as Jews (or Christians) would say your evil inclinations (material desires and urges) and your inherent godliness.

Peace (srsly :smile: ),
7L

Time
08-02-2011, 10:01 PM
Its an honest question, and one that ive looked up in quite a few instanses in other religions. I stated i dont mean disrespect, and there have been many " religios wars" and what not attributed ( or so said) by islam through out its exsistance.

He seems to know alot about it, and i am interested in the answer..

I means " killing is a godly act", by the fact that msot religions standards, god is the only one that can kill another human being ( but killing animals is ok ???? double standard but im not getting into that ).

While it may seem im going by what the media is saying about them I am not. As i have said, and we all know, many induviduals, peoples and countries have all claimed to do "gods will", even try to justify it by saying so. I have found a few answers to most, but not islam. Which i must confess ive only read a bit into, but it is facinating, and there are a few great truths in its words, yet it is filled with misinterpretations, as well as unequality, and in some instances violence.

I am mearly trying to understand what I dont. And I cant do that if I dont ask questions

Verunia
08-02-2011, 10:16 PM
Islam, a monotheistic religion


Yes. This is true.

is the Absolute Truth.

But the Christians said you were wrong, and the jews said they were wrong, and the Buddhists said all of you are right. The Discordians told me they don't really care. I'm so confused. :icon_frown:

Shabda
08-02-2011, 10:22 PM
Absolue truth is NOT found in Islam, Christianity or Judaism, nor any other "religion", It can be found in many of the works of poets around the globe, and It can also be found on the inner by anyone who dares to look within and not shy away...read the verses of Rumi, for example, he laid out some very good keys to this Absolute truth...

Chrysaetos
08-02-2011, 10:37 PM
Religions are based on old scripture written down by fallible humans who interpreted events according to their cultural-religious blinkers. Spiritual experiences too, are influenced by outer stimuli and our beliefs. Memory involves interpretation, and interpretation involves rendering the significant and meaningful. This is partly determined by one's beliefs, morals, and interests. When people are in meditation or are experiencing their spirituality, their brains are still active, hence their beliefs and morals can still influence the experience.

Humans cannot know ''The Absolute Truth'' - We can know parts, and some parts are fact, some parts are highly probable, and other parts are not. That's not so say that there is no absolute truth, or objective reality. There is. It's just that humans are no gods, and can't understand the whole picture.

Time
09-02-2011, 02:00 AM
Crrysaetos - sweet avatar LOL

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
09-02-2011, 03:06 PM
Pre-dawn,
If you'd like to have a better understanding of Islam, I recommend reading "The Sealed Nectar", you can google it but if you don't find it, tell
me and I'll send it to you.


Time,

I'm glad you brought up this topic, thank you for being direct.:smile:

God being incomparable is one of his attributes, as in nothing is like him, I don't see
how that relates to how people justify their acts, can you please elaborate on that point?

The Quran is God's words revealed to the Prophet, and in it are the rules we Muslims must
follow, and the Quran says: "And fight for God those who fight you, and do not transgress,
for Allah loveth not the transgressors." - Quran: Al-Bakara(190) -
Also: "And if they incline towards peace then do incline towards it,
and trust in God, for He is the Hearer and the Knower." - Quran: Al-Anfal(61) -


and there have been many " religios wars" and what not attributed ( or so said) by islam through out its exsistance.

and there are a few great truths in its words, yet it is filled with misinterpretations, as well as unequality, and in some instances violence.



In war the rules we follow are clear, and through out history you will find that Muslims
have abided by them, and never when they conquered did they kill women, children and
the elderly or burn down the culture like other religions have done, neither did they
enforce their belief on them.



The Sealed Nectar is a memoir of the Prophet's life, I think it will give you a clearer image
of what Islam is.:smile:

Yes 7luminaries, that's true.....Jihad literally means struggle/strife, it is fighting one's negative inclinations
and it drives them to become better.

hope this helps.
looking forward to you thoughts.

Jiraiya.

spiritual01azeemi
09-02-2011, 05:11 PM
you are also right in this regard. i am appreciate it.

visit elucky.tk

Time
09-02-2011, 06:19 PM
Not a problem Jiraiya. I usualy dont dance around the maypole ( except when its that time of year of course :D )

An example, we could both understand is the crucades. The europeans called it a holy war. "in gods name".

While I agree, that by my understanding, they had no real right to take jeruselem over, other then political, and religious ambitions. Its a middle eastern town, and whether we admit it or not, christianity, is middle eastern. Islam , in my opinion had more "rights" to be in jeruselem then anybody. Unfortunatly, christianity in the european sence felt the same way.

Unfortunatly also, i dont agree when you say islam has never killed innocents. This was common in those days, as unfortunate and wrong as it is. Both sides are guilty of these atrocities.

It is my undetstanding, that islam teaches you to fight for allah, no matter the cost. Is this incorrect? This is where my question lies....

It is widly accepted, that death to another human, can only be done by gods hands. It is against many if not all religions, to kill a human in cold blood ( ill omit sacrifices here, because this can make things in this conversation confusing). But as far as I know, you are right, they didnt force their religion quite like cristianity has.

I am asking, how can islam justify this, when it specificaly states " no one can compare themselves to allah", which i think that means, killing another human, even if it is in "gods name"

7luminaries
09-02-2011, 08:05 PM
To Time and Pre-Dawn...I want to make a general statement...I understand your questions...

btw Rumi was a mystic, a Sufi...and I love the Sufis' writings...they do speak truth. What mystics know of Sufis pretty much dissolves all boundaries...but I think that's clear enough from their writings anyway.

The general statement is this...there are different traditions...there are many paths to God...there have been varying translations, misappropriations of religion for war or persecution, and so forth...(and I'm going to go out on a limb...but I can't believe a Sufi would ever say that Allah told them to kill anyone in the name of Allah...)

But the underlying truth and wisdom they both conceal and reveal still exists...they are, for the true seekers, pointers to the divine light...to the Source of all that exists...to the ultimate truth, beauty, and justice. And that's a beautiful thing.

If you can understand that, then you begin to can understand where Jiraiya is coming from.

Peace & blessings,
7L

Time
09-02-2011, 08:12 PM
Oh i do 100%. Which is why im asking. I cant understand if I dont ask. Im not shy in asking anything. If i disrespected him ( or her), im sure they woulve told me, and I wouldve dropped it. This is no the case, they generaly answered my questions, and I appreciate it greatly.

I have alluded to those points you have made as well. Once again which is why I am asking. I wish to understand.

Im sorry if i offended you personaly. To be fair it was pointed to the creator of this thread, but was generaly answered by Jiraiya ( again thanks :D )

7luminaries
09-02-2011, 10:22 PM
LOL...no not me personally...it's just such a huge task first to bridge misunderstood concepts and then get into areas that are difficult to discuss even if the core belief system is intact.

That being said...I'm no Muslim scholar and I lent out all my books by Fatimah Mernissi to a friend quite a while back...but her whole approach is that reinterpretation by hadith [commentary] -- as many have always done -- is a valid way to provide clarifications or updates to their understanding of the holy book. After all, the limits to understanding always lie on the human side of the spectrum.

In many ways I think her approach is a model for Judaism and even Christianity although they don't have quite the same tradition of commentary...but hey no time like the present :tongue:

The approach of a thriving commentary-based tradition allows for the possibility of greater understanding by society of the spirit of the law over time...or, if it's better to say, for extending it into the present...

It is much like the spirit of the more inclusive positions taken by the Masorti/Conservative Judaism and Modern Othodox communities, which have provided reinterpretation or additional interpretation of the law (Torah...and also of standing rabbinic commentary in the Talmud) on a few key points where it is clearly possible to revisit it...based on our understanding in these times.

But Mernissi is really head and shoulders above the rest in her area of working within the law (the text of the Koran) and rights of women in Islam...LOL!

However I don't recall if she has any position on jihad etc so I'll wait for Jiraiya & Malihe (?) to respond :smile:

salaam & shalom,
7L

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
12-02-2011, 02:36 PM
I apologize for the late reply, we were all here kinda preoccupied these last couple of days.


It is my undetstanding, that islam teaches you to fight for allah, no matter the cost.
Is this incorrect? This is where my question lies.... "fighting for Allah" is an inaccurate statement and it is taken out of context, generally speaking
Islam teaches to follow God's commands and the cost is certainly put into calculations,
there is a saying: wherever lies good, it is the command of Allah. It means we shouldn't take
the superficial meaning of any law and follow it blindly, God wants us to pursue the cause, put
effort into it, contemplate the meaning, and the right thing is what brings the greater good or benefit.
It was never narrowed down to fighting, where did you hear that?!


I am asking, how can Islam justify this, when it specifically states " no one can compare
themselves to Allah", which i think that means, killing another human, even if it is in "gods name" look at this verse.
"And when thy Lord said to the angels: Verily, I am going to place a successor on earth.
They said: Will You place therein those who will corrupt in it and shed blood, while we
glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.
He said: I know that which you do not know." - Quran: Al-Bakarah (30) -

People have different beliefs, sometimes it leads to conflict and war.
When God created us he knew we would shed each others blood, thus he brought
down religion, so we would abide by his law and follow the path he had set for us.

What I'm trying to say is that we have rules to follow, we don't justify things and act on
our own impulses, we follow the teachings of Islam.


For example This is how the first verse to allow fighting was revealed.
In the beginning of Islam, The Prophet stayed in Mekkah for 13 years, the people were harming the Muslims greatly at that time,
so they went to the Prophet injured and beaten complaining to him, but he would tell them: "be patient for I haven't
been ordered to fight.", only when he immigrated to the Madeenah were they permitted to fight, the following verse
was revealed: "Permission(to fight) to those who are fought against, for they have been treated unjustly,
and surely God is capable of granting them victory."

hope this answers your question.

ohh..and your questions don't bother me at all, I like that you are direct, ask all you want I welcome discussion with anyone.:D

7luminaries,

There are many Islamic scholars in that field, it is probably because most her writings are in French that I haven't heard of her, maybe Malihe has an idea, sorry lol.:smile:

adzonni
12-02-2011, 08:48 PM
I have read a bit of the Koran. I know it revers some of the old prophets like Moses and Jesus. I remember from my reading in the Christian Bible that Jesus said that no one can come to God unless thru him. I am wondering: how does Islam faith treat this saying?

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
12-02-2011, 09:19 PM
There are fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, so a Prophet by our definition is one who is sent to call upon worshiping God and only God, there are no mediums in between.

Zeliar791
12-02-2011, 09:31 PM
There are fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, so a Prophet by our definition is one who is sent to call upon worshiping God and only God, there are no mediums in between.

There is only one god after all... Secularizing religion is a good way to allow this materialism to go unfettered.

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
12-02-2011, 10:45 PM
There is only one god after all... Secularizing religion is a good way to allow this materialism to go unfettered.

If that happens....when things get rough, all we civilized people will eat each other for we have forgotten all about religion(it is the path to self-discipline, wouldn't you agree?), then the immaterial will become immaterial...I think. lol :rolleyes:

45Uberti
13-02-2011, 06:36 PM
The hell myth is the most despicable ever created by mankind. The myth originates from the roman catholics and if you look back, all texts that mention hell comes from them. And I know someone is going to try and say it surfaced earlier in the hebrew bible, known as "sheol" but it has a different meaning, it is not the "hell" of modern day.

Hell is used as a fear tactic to keep the people in line and to dissuade them from leaving the church because they will say you will lose favor with god and suffer eternal damnation.

It all boils down to this, sunday tithes, thats right. Thats why the hell myth exists because if your afraid, then you'll keep tithing in false hope of gaining favor with god.

Shabda
13-02-2011, 06:53 PM
The hell myth is the most despicable ever created by mankind. The myth originates from the roman catholics and if you look back, all texts that mention hell comes from them. And I know someone is going to try and say it surfaced earlier in the hebrew bible, known as "sheol" but it has a different meaning, it is not the "hell" of modern day.

Hell is used as a fear tactic to keep the people in line and to dissuade them from leaving the church because they will say you will lose favor with god and suffer eternal damnation.

It all boils down to this, sunday tithes, thats right. Thats why the hell myth exists because if your afraid, then you'll keep tithing in false hope of gaining favor with god.
you are partially correct, but not entirely, hell is an actual place on the astral plane, it does actually exist though none are sentenced eternally...and yes there are many that use it as a control tool, but those generally have absolutely no understanding of the truth of the matter...

nventr
14-02-2011, 05:25 PM
The hell myth is the most despicable ever created by mankind. The myth originates from the roman catholics and if you look back, all texts that mention hell comes from them. And I know someone is going to try and say it surfaced earlier in the hebrew bible, known as "sheol" but it has a different meaning, it is not the "hell" of modern day.

Hell is used as a fear tactic to keep the people in line and to dissuade them from leaving the church because they will say you will lose favor with god and suffer eternal damnation.

It all boils down to this, sunday tithes, thats right. Thats why the hell myth exists because if your afraid, then you'll keep tithing in false hope of gaining favor with god.


Catholicism is a "Virgin" religion which is based completely on Grace. Hell is a place of torment. The original Greek word used by Jesus was Gehenna, the name of the place where children/innocents/virgins were sacrificed.

Those who are true "Virgins," are tormented by the wine, the blood, the kundalini, or the serpent; whichever you like to call it. This is why the red apple is poison and puts Snow White into an eternal sleep.

Continuous giving is what keeps the creative alive. Like an artisan well, the more that is used the more it flows. If it is not wanted or needed it stagnates and dies.

It is unfortunate that it is not a requirement that everyone take a personality test before being allowed to enter any religion. This form of understanding is specific to the innocent and creative personality types.

Warrior/King personalities thrive on the red stuff. It brings compassion to an otherwise cold intellect. Only when a warrior is knighted, or has completed his training, are they allowed to follow the "Virgin" path or search for the Holy Grail.

7luminaries
14-02-2011, 06:32 PM
I am not Muslim...I am not certain of their take on this, but to me, it seems really misleading to use the term "virgin"...in the sense presented here.

Innocence is perhaps a better term, and I mean that strictly in the spiritual sense and having nothing at all to do with the material. I believe..firmly and deeply...that the spiritual cannot be "corrupted" by the material...this view is rooted in the belief that the body is bad or evil...yet all is from God...and all can be sanctified, or made "holy", in light, love, and yes, in grace. My understanding is that there is no such thing as someone's spiritual integrity being corrupted by the existence of the body in and of itself...

The path of spiritual grace is simply the path of the mystic, which yes, includes or incorporates the true spiritual warrior...it has nothing to do with false dichtomies...spiritual vs material...it has nothing to do with flagellating or mortifying the body...nor of condoning abuse on or bias toward any person or group.

To me, it is the integration and acceptance of all things, and recognising that all creatures, all aspects of existence are sacred...all are from God.

Peace,
7L

Royalite
14-02-2011, 06:49 PM
There are fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, so a Prophet by our definition is one who is sent to call upon worshiping God and only God, there are no mediums in between.

Very much interesting!

See, I was taught that a prophet is sent from God and cannot lie; thus, when Jesus said he was the son of God he could not lie.

Thing is...I see spirit in those words...

Royalite
14-02-2011, 06:51 PM
If no one can compare themselves to allah, then how can people justify killing in the name of him? ( im not picking on islam here, many people have "justified" killing in the name of god).

Killing another human is in most religions a godly act, so how can islam justify a human doing godly acts, when no one ( by the rules of islam) compare themselves to god??


I am not Muslim, but this is a thin ice commentary that was posted here.

People do what people choose to do and will justify it by whatever they so please to fit their agenda.

Royalite
14-02-2011, 06:53 PM
Pre-dawn,
If you'd like to have a better understanding of Islam, I recommend reading "The Sealed Nectar", you can google it but if you don't find it, tell
me and I'll send it to you.


Time,

I'm glad you brought up this topic, thank you for being direct.:smile:

God being incomparable is one of his attributes, as in nothing is like him, I don't see
how that relates to how people justify their acts, can you please elaborate on that point?

The Quran is God's words revealed to the Prophet, and in it are the rules we Muslims must
follow, and the Quran says: "And fight for God those who fight you, and do not transgress,
for Allah loveth not the transgressors." - Quran: Al-Bakara(190) -
Also: "And if they incline towards peace then do incline towards it,
and trust in God, for He is the Hearer and the Knower." - Quran: Al-Anfal(61) -





In war the rules we follow are clear, and through out history you will find that Muslims
have abided by them, and never when they conquered did they kill women, children and
the elderly or burn down the culture like other religions have done, neither did they
enforce their belief on them.



The Sealed Nectar is a memoir of the Prophet's life, I think it will give you a clearer image
of what Islam is.:smile:

Yes 7luminaries, that's true.....Jihad literally means struggle/strife, it is fighting one's negative inclinations
and it drives them to become better.

hope this helps.
looking forward to you thoughts.

Jiraiya.


nice post Jiraiya :smile:

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
14-02-2011, 08:18 PM
Very much interesting!

See, I was taught that a prophet is sent from God and cannot lie; thus, when Jesus said he was the son of God he could not lie.

Thing is...I see spirit in those words...
lol Dynamist that's a good point, but as I said there are fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, so whether he was lying or not isn't the point of disagreement.....it is what he said and didn't say. :smile:

You see we believe Judaism, Christianity and Islam have the same origin and call upon the same basic principles.

nice post Jiraiya :smile:
thanks:D

7luminaries
14-02-2011, 09:51 PM
Right...with all due respect to Christianity, I have said before that I personally believe Jesus was a mystic and was IMO probably severely misquoted/ misunderstood...which has led to some seeming "schisms".

Not that Judaism would have said he was a prophet (?)...but I would see him more in the mold of Bar Yochai...a mystical visionary possibly in the same estoteric lore (oral kabbalah or similar) who might (?) have had lasting impact on Judaism if not for phrases like "the only way to the Father is through me (apologies for paraphrasing)".

I don't believe an observant Jew like Yeshua ben Yosef would even conceive of a statement like this, no matter how mystical or ascetic...

If he said...we are all children of the One God...or similar...ok that's different...

Then again, the idea of One God has reached many people via Christianity...as with Islam...so it's all for the good :smile:

Peace,
7L

Royalite
14-02-2011, 09:54 PM
lol Dynamist that's a good point, but as I said there are fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, so whether he was lying or not isn't the point of disagreement.....it is what he said and didn't say. :smile:

You see we believe Judaism, Christianity and Islam have the same origin and call upon the same basic principles.


thanks:D

Mhmmm, I was sharing the Christian perspective I was given. See, for many Christians it is this belief that they are arguing for. Belief in Christ and salvation from hell through belief through him.

It's almost an argument about different things. :icon_frown:

Royalite
14-02-2011, 09:55 PM
Right...with all due respect to Christianity, I have said before that I personally believe Jesus was a mystic and was IMO probably severely misquoted/ misunderstood...which has led to some seeming "schisms".

Not that Judaism would have said he was a prophet (?)...but I would see him more in the mold of Bar Yochai...a mystical visionary possibly in the same estoteric lore (oral kabbalah or similar) who might (?) have had lasting impact on Judaism if not for phrases like "the only way to the Father is through me (apologies for paraphrasing)".

I don't believe an observant Jew like Yeshua ben Yosef would even conceive of a statement like this, no matter how mystical or ascetic...

If he said...we are all children of the One God...or similar...ok that's different...

Then again, the idea of One God has reached many people via Christianity...as with Islam...so it's all for the good :smile:

Peace,
7L

You ought to take this one up with "Pauline doctrine".

7luminaries
14-02-2011, 10:12 PM
LOL...no thanks! :D

nventr
14-02-2011, 11:34 PM
I am not Muslim...I am not certain of their take on this, but to me, it seems really misleading to use the term "virgin"...in the sense presented here.

Innocence is perhaps a better term, and I mean that strictly in the spiritual sense and having nothing at all to do with the material. I believe..firmly and deeply...that the spiritual cannot be "corrupted" by the material...this view is rooted in the belief that the body is bad or evil...yet all is from God...and all can be sanctified, or made "holy", in light, love, and yes, in grace. My understanding is that there is no such thing as someone's spiritual integrity being corrupted by the existence of the body in and of itself...

The path of spiritual grace is simply the path of the mystic, which yes, includes or incorporates the true spiritual warrior...it has nothing to do with false dichtomies...spiritual vs material...it has nothing to do with flagellating or mortifying the body...nor of condoning abuse on or bias toward any person or group.

To me, it is the integration and acceptance of all things, and recognising that all creatures, all aspects of existence are sacred...all are from God.

Peace,
7L

Virgin is a title of those who had been accepted to the Greek Mystery cults. Specifically those cults that catered to women aspirants. The levels of attainment were: Virgin, Mother, Mother Superior or Universal Mother (Some say Jesus renamed the highest level as Magdalene). These cults believed that all was good. The body as well as the soul was divine. Every life was from God and thus sacred and should be preserved.

Kundalini is not part of this belief system. Blood, Wine, or Kundalini is considered the fires of Hell, the slaughter of the innocents, or a crucifixion.

The greek philosophical system maintained that the soul of every person, both men and women, was feminine. Thus the relationship with the divine would require a masculine deity, God the Father or God the Bridegroom.

The Catholic church still holds to these ideals. This is why I called it a "Virgin Path" religion.

7luminaries
15-02-2011, 02:31 AM
LOL...I've heard of many similar undertones in Christianity...but it's really not my place to comment.

It depends really if you derive the thread of ascetism in Christianity (i.e., Saul/Paul's comments about better to marry than to burn) from the association of Yeshua with 1) the asceticism of the Essenes or (my own hypothesis) of the early kabbalists, some of whom were also ascetic....or 2) from the mystery cults...

If you go with 1) it makes logical sense and I think this position has a lot of academic support.

However if you go with 2) & derive the ascetism from the tradition of mystery cults, where as you say the flesh was holy and often almost deified in some mystery cults (Dionysus etc)...or even assuming you refer to those of Diana, Isis/Venus, Athena, and similar...then the connection with Christianity's hallmark asceticism is rather less direct or clear.

Asceticism is the one aspect that is best in very small doses as far as I'm concerned...however, I don't see the mystery cults as a foundational element of Christianity. I think the foundational element was ascetic, messianic Judaism.

I'm no Christian scholar...I'm not Christian either...so really can't comment further except to say that even if other elements were overlaid onto the main ideas (God, compassion, forgiveness/redemption thru unconditional love), that doesn't render those ideas invalid.

And that the mystery cults of the pagan gods did not hold the lock on mysticism and hermetics.

Peace,
7L

nventr
15-02-2011, 04:21 PM
Messianic Judaism required the Messiah to be born of a virgin. Why?

So, she would teach him her path.

The Messiah also had to be born in the house of David. Why?

So, he would teach him his path.

The only way to be a Messiah is to follow both paths.

This is why Jesus was married (the female initiatory rite) at Cana and was crucified on the cross (the male initiatory rite).

7luminaries
15-02-2011, 07:05 PM
Em...I am not into messianic Judaism...LOL...

But there is nothing in Judaism per se that requires the messiah's mother to be a virgin who conceived without a human man...Jews never read Isaiah that way.

If it was a part of the belief of the Essenes or others, seems that element of their belief would have come from elsewhere.

But I can't comment on that...it's not for me to do that. I will leave that for the Christians..it's their belief. And again, an overlay from elsewhere still doesn't invalidate the underlying themes of God, compassion, etc.

Also that is not the only interpretation of how or when the age of the messiah arrives. Acc'd to the kabbalistic interpretation...the messiah is not one person...that's a bit lazy isn't it? LOL...

Instead, we as a ppl...everyone...is the messiah..the messiah has arrived when the global spiritual awakening of ppl as a whole has occurred. In that sense, every man (and woman)...a spiritual "king"...comprende?

And I much prefer that interpretation :D
PS...If this is getting too off topic, I'm done!

Peace,
7L

Time
18-02-2011, 03:19 PM
Jir I appoligize too. My posts page got swamped. I appreciate you answering my questions, dispiite how "iffy" they may be.

I think "fight" might have been the wrong word. I mean, more along the lines, of if allah or god told you, even if it goes against the koran, is it justified? According to what youve said, only god can make those kinds of decisions. So how do we know whether its us, or allah speaking? I think this is where my question really lies. Of course to belive in a religion such as islam, you have to have un unrelenting faith in him. Which is fair. And god puts the thoughts in our heads, so, how can we know for sure? IF my thoughts told me to kill someone, just becasue, or becasue i thought " they are against my god", i wouldnt do it, dispite what my religion is.

But I think thats just it too. As you say ( and i do agree), it is a misnterstanding, and misinterpretation of the religion. If you know killing is bad, why would you do it? Especialy when it is stricly prohibited by law, and religion?


"People have different beliefs, sometimes it leads to conflict and war.
When God created us he knew we would shed each others blood, thus he brought
down religion, so we would abide by his law and follow the path he had set for us.

What I'm trying to say is that we have rules to follow, we don't justify things and act on
our own impulses, we follow the teachings of Islam."

OF course you do, but as you and I both agreed, this is left up to personal interpretation. But the people who suicide bomb innocent people, are said to be muslim. They follow the rules, but under their own interpretation. So what does allah do, when you still follow the rules, yet break them?

And yes, youve pretty much answered my questions :D THanks.. It seems to be the same answer as the others: It may not be god telling them, as much as themselves ( which IMo is no different then god)


Dynamist -

I am aware, which is why i tried to word it as best as i could. I have explained my reasons. There is no denying that people in religions all over the world have used gods name as a scapegoat for things they have done. Which is why im asking.

Islam is a very interesting religion. They are strict fot the most part in their teachings, and muslims are extremely passionate about their religion. And I 100% respect their belifs. But i cant undertand them, if I have questions. Jiraya was understood my question, and I have explained myself, and also appoligized if i have offended anyone. You wont learn if you are afraid to ask questions that for you may need answering....

Royalite
18-02-2011, 05:22 PM
Jir I appoligize too. My posts page got swamped. I appreciate you answering my questions, dispiite how "iffy" they may be.

I think "fight" might have been the wrong word. I mean, more along the lines, of if allah or god told you, even if it goes against the koran, is it justified? According to what youve said, only god can make those kinds of decisions. So how do we know whether its us, or allah speaking? I think this is where my question really lies. Of course to belive in a religion such as islam, you have to have un unrelenting faith in him. Which is fair. And god puts the thoughts in our heads, so, how can we know for sure? IF my thoughts told me to kill someone, just becasue, or becasue i thought " they are against my god", i wouldnt do it, dispite what my religion is.

But I think thats just it too. As you say ( and i do agree), it is a misnterstanding, and misinterpretation of the religion. If you know killing is bad, why would you do it? Especialy when it is stricly prohibited by law, and religion?


"People have different beliefs, sometimes it leads to conflict and war.
When God created us he knew we would shed each others blood, thus he brought
down religion, so we would abide by his law and follow the path he had set for us.

What I'm trying to say is that we have rules to follow, we don't justify things and act on
our own impulses, we follow the teachings of Islam."

OF course you do, but as you and I both agreed, this is left up to personal interpretation. But the people who suicide bomb innocent people, are said to be muslim. They follow the rules, but under their own interpretation. So what does allah do, when you still follow the rules, yet break them?

And yes, youve pretty much answered my questions :D THanks.. It seems to be the same answer as the others: It may not be god telling them, as much as themselves ( which IMo is no different then god)


Dynamist -

I am aware, which is why i tried to word it as best as i could. I have explained my reasons. There is no denying that people in religions all over the world have used gods name as a scapegoat for things they have done. Which is why im asking.

Islam is a very interesting religion. They are strict fot the most part in their teachings, and muslims are extremely passionate about their religion. And I 100% respect their belifs. But i cant undertand them, if I have questions. Jiraya was understood my question, and I have explained myself, and also appoligized if i have offended anyone. You wont learn if you are afraid to ask questions that for you may need answering....

It's okay. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted you're intent. :smile:

Time
18-02-2011, 05:46 PM
Naw dont be sorry, nothing to be sorry for. You made the comment for the same reason i asked my question :D

Peace

Myer
18-02-2011, 06:14 PM
Hello Islamistheabsolutetruth !

I say this with the greatest of respect, but if you have found the 'absolute truth' that's great!

HOWEVER....some of us here are on a different journey of discovery and enlightment. We use this forum to share our experiences and thoughts.

I'm not sure why people turn up, just to announce that "their religion" is the only truth?

Myer

Time
18-02-2011, 06:18 PM
Almost all monotheistic religions say there is the one tru religion, or that their god is the only god. This is where the problems happen...

IMO its easier to look past the differences and focus on the similarities so we can have our cake and eat it to

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
21-02-2011, 10:28 PM
No problem please take all the time you need, I often take some time as well. Do you know when you talk about a book you've read to someone, you find your self floating around the main points, and they might understand these points, but they won't conceive the whole thing as you do, that's because of the little details these little details are the thing that give you the whole image. So indeed I might help you understand a bit about Islam, but reading and exploring it yourself will give you a lot more than what I can give. And I'll be happy to answer your questions at any time...Time lol.:smile:



I think "fight" might have been the wrong word. I mean, more along the lines, of if allah or god told you, even if it goes against the koran, is it justified? According to what youve said, only god can make those kinds of decisions. So how do we know whether its us, or allah speaking?
I think this is where my question really lies. Of course to belive in a religion
such as islam, you have to have un unrelenting faith in him. Which is fair. And god puts the thoughts in our heads, so, how can we know for sure? IF my thoughts told me to kill someone, just becasue, or becasue i thought " they are against my god", i wouldnt do it, dispite what my religion is.
But I think thats just it too. As you say ( and i do agree), it is a misnterstanding, and misinterpretation of the religion. If you know killing is bad, why would you do it? Especialy when it is stricly prohibited by law, and religion?
I would then be following my own inclinations, besides God will not contradict him self like that. If someone claimed that, I think they are probably hearing voices and I really doubt these voices are God. I've Answered you questions as best I can, and I believe they cover most points around this topic and these questions as well.
And I cannot generalize when I say: we follow the teachings of Islam. In every society there are those who disregard the law.



OF course you do, but as you and I both agreed, this is left up to personal interpretation. But the people who suicide bomb innocent people, are said to be muslim. They follow the rules, but under their own interpretation. So what does allah do, when you still follow the rules, yet break them?
There is not much room to interpretation when the given rule is clear, This phenomenon is mostly exibited in countries like Israel, Pakistanis, Afghansand and Iraq since the U.S led the envation of that country in 2003. so mainly it is a response to foreign occupation and not a bahaviour that is taught in Islam. I'm not justifying what they do but nor am I in thier position to say what I would do. When someone is pushed into a corner, they will most certainly resort to extreame measures, and you cannot anticipate what they will do. Nevertheless Suicide is forbidden in Islam, much more mass murder and there are many opinions about this topic which makes it very contraversial.

But as I said there is not much room for interpretation when the given rule is clear, so when we go back to what the Quran says, we will find this.

In pre-Islamic Arabia, retaliation and mass murder was commonplace.
If someone was killed, the victim's tribe would retaliate against the murderer's entire tribe. This practice was directly forbidden in the Quran. The Quran says: "After this, whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave chastisement."
- Quran: (2)Al-bakarah (178) -

"The recompense for an injury
is an injury equal thereto (in degree),
but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation,
his reward is due from God,
for God loves not those who do wrong.
But indeed, if any do help and defend themselves
after a wrong done to them,
against such there is no cause of blame.
The blame is only against those who oppress men
with wrongdoing and insolently transgress
beyond bounds through the land,
defying right and justice.
For such there will be a penalty grievous (in the Hereafter).
But indeed, if any show patience and forgive,
that would truly be an affair of great resolution."
- Quran: (42)Al-Shoora (40-43) -

Invite all to the way of your Lord
with wisdom and beautiful preaching.
And argue with them
in ways that are best and most gracious...
And if you punish,
let your punishment be proportional
to the wrong that has been done to you.
But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course.
Be patient, for your patience is from God.
And do not grieve over them,
or distress yourself because of their plots.
For God is with those who restrain themselves,
and those who do good.
- Quran: (16)Al-nahl (125-128) -

No matter what wrong we perceive as being done against us, we may not lash out against an entire population of people. So we conclude that Islam neither causes nor explains suicide bombers. The true motivation of such attacks in my opinion is probably dispair. I've read a book called 33 Stratigies of War by robert green, although I don't agree
with most of what he says, I find truth in some of his opinions. In that book he explained that when people find themselves in extreame situations, they will push back harder he called it "Death ground strategy" and he gave historical stories to back up this idea.


If you don't mind I'm going to be a little direct as well. You have made many assumptions about Islam with basis from I don't know where. Too many assumptions can take you a long way from where the truth really lies, so let me give you some facts.

-Islam is now the fastest growing religion.

In southern France, 30% of children age of 20 and younger are Muslims, in
2027 1 in 5 Frenchmen will be Muslim. in 39 years France will be an Islamic
republic. In the last 30 years, the Muslim population in great Britain rose from
82,000 to 2.5 million, a 30-fold increase, in the Netherlands 50% of all
newborns are Muslims, and in 15 years half of the population will be Muslims.
In Russia there are 23 million Muslims, that's 1 out of 5 Russians, in Belgium
25% of the population are Muslims, 50% of all newborns are Muslims.
The German federal statistics office stated: "Germany will be a Muslim state
by the year 2050."
There are 52 million Muslims in Europe, the German government said that
number is expected to double in the next 20 years, to 104 million.
In 1970 there were 100,000 Muslims in America, in 2008 they became 9,000,000.
The catholic Church has reported that Islam has just surpassed their
membership numbers. Some study show that with Islam's current rate of growth,
in 5 to 7 years it will be the dominant religion in the world.

Now the questions you need to ask yourself here is why? why is it that Islam is the fastest growing religion? is it because people find it a nice experience to convert to Islam and blow themselves up?:rolleyes:.....I doubt it,
so I'll leave you to find the answer yourself.

Looking forward to your thoughts.:smile:

Jiraiya

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
21-02-2011, 10:36 PM
Hello Islamistheabsolutetruth !

I say this with the greatest of respect, but if you have found the 'absolute truth' that's great!

HOWEVER....some of us here are on a different journey of discovery and enlightment. We use this forum to share our experiences and thoughts.

I'm not sure why people turn up, just to announce that "their religion" is the only truth?

Myer
Hi Myer, please read my second post on this thread.:smile:

7luminaries
22-02-2011, 02:11 AM
Jiraiya, salaam/shalom,
Do you think these stats (thanks btw, very interesting) indicate that when there is a Muslim majority, say in France or the Netherlands, that they will automatically replace the current government and/or its laws with Sharia, or do you think there will just be better representation and a merging of cultures?

I think the treatment of minorities and vulnerable populations (children, women, the sick, elderly, or challenged) is one area where humankind as a whole tends to lag...interpretation and understanding of religious law through any prism but the most expansive &/or mystical interpretation will often fall short. I mean generally and not Islam in particular. But I think the problem with governing through religious law is that those with the most knowledge, despite their religious commitment and their faith, may not (God forbid) be the wisest or the most compassionate or the most tolerant.

And even if they are compassionate, they are constrained by their own interpretation of the law, which is normally the strictest. I'm thinking of Judaism. There is a reason why religious law is not by and large the law of the land in Israel, and it's because it would often be used to constrain freedoms and not to elevate us spiritually. We are not "there" yet; commentary has to advance.

Because, whilst there is nothing that discriminates against other most men, generally speaking, women would not fare as well. I am confident one day we will be "there"...but if we were to take the rabbinic commentary from the Talmud, women's testimony is either not taken or not valued in the same way. It is much the same with different shades in most religious law in all the religions of Abraham.

And we can see that where the religious law doesn't directly compel you (but where you should extend from similar positions on treatment of vulnerable populations or minorities), then the situation of minorities is always at the whim of the rulers/government. Christianity ignored the teachings of Christ when dealing with non-Christians, often brutally...until those countries generally transitioned to secular law.

Generally, it's the same everywhere. Christians have just had a head start on secular representative governments, but as far as the spirit of the law embodying tolerance and love for minorities, well, they're still learning with the rest of us. The difference is as of the 20th century, I believe all countries with Christian majorities had done away with the inquisition on the books. In practise, though if we look at the 20th century...1st half, not so good. Only in the 2nd half did W Europe & the US, etc put anti-discrimination laws on the books. But God forbid they'd had religious law as the law of the land, as Christianity does not explicitly require tolerating other faiths...obviously because it was understood, LOL...but then we see how gaps are misconstrued...Now Islam does have that, tolerate the dhimmi. But like most things, it is subject to the human factor: interpretation of what tolerance is varied based on the heart and spirit of those in power.

The actual practise ranged from Golden Ages of tolerance and safety to what appear to Western eyes the equivalent of Jim Crow laws that the ex-slaves in the US had to endure that essentially just prolonged their de facto slavery as "sharecropping" -- marginality, subjugation, brutalisation, & a fragile existence at the white man's whim and discretion. Unable to own any business they couldn't carry (peddling), unable to walk on the street if a white man passed, unable to vote, and so forth. Dehumanised. This is the kind of discrimination and brutalisation that it took Christian-majority countries centuries of experience in government (LOL...so much for experience) to overcome. This is what however, no one wants to return to in any form, including those all these same countries with Christian majorities at present, who may not have had slaves but had colonies. Who granted may not be treating their own minorities well, but are constrained by their civil laws to a standard that is still relatively fair and decent, as of the 21st century (LOL hurrah!).

Progress has been so slow and so long in coming, I think we all understand that reactionary treatment of the weak and vulnerable (or any minority) is only bad for humanity as a whole.

What do you think our future looks like? Do you think Islam will meet the challenge better than Christianity? Historically, there were some Muslims who looked down on their dhimmi (mostly Jews, as very few Christians in many countries) in the way blacks and other minorities were treated in the West..sadly, as subhuman...though I realise these are just cultural prejudices that we as a species tend toward, and which true religion does not espouse or condone, much like negative attitudes toward women can be found anywhere.

Like many Muslims who were shocked to find that Jews now had their own nation through some historical twist or providence, depending, there are many Christians who have been shocked when Muslims want to be included and tolerated and treated fairly. Fancy that, LOL! When Muslims are a majority it will be an even harder adjustment. But prejudice aside (as people really just have to get over that), the one issue that legitimately concerns many people of all walks of life is whether there will be a loss of status, freedoms, and access for those not in the majority, or based on the majority group's customs, laws and preferences.

IMO, looking at history, this baseline of stability and equanimity is the foundation of civil society, and it is just the civil laws guaranteeing the rights of all people as equal and the right to worship openly and freely, etc, that allow for the growth of Islam in the West. Granted civil law is far from perfect, LOL...but it is the most equitable model we have yet found, IMO and in the opinion of many. And whilst the most orthodox of Jews are not politically inclined, they too, just like the rest of us, require the freedoms of Western civil law in order to live free from persecution essentially for the first time in the history of the diaspora (whether they realise it or not).

Your comments as always are valued :smile:

Salaam and shalom,
7L

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
22-02-2011, 10:31 PM
Wa alykom 7L,

I don't know 7L but usually a country's religion is decided by the religion of the majority. Which means it will probably turn into a Muslim country, I really don't know much about politics and how these things work, but I think their governments can make a transition that benefits all parties.

lol I understand your concern:smile:, but regardless of how many think otherwise, Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, and in Islamic history people like Salah Aldeen had shown great morality when dealing with non-Muslims, he was a wonderful display of Islamic manners, he was a good man and a great Muslim... and all Muslims would do well to follow in his steps. And I can only hope that all Muslims or at least the ones in charge have the awareness to stick to our Islamic teachings and do the right thing for everyone.

Btw what does dhimmi mean?

Jiraiya

7luminaries
22-02-2011, 10:46 PM
Wa alykom 7L,

I don't know 7L but usually a country's religion is decided by the religion of the majority. Which means it will probably turn into a Muslim country, I really don't know much about politics and how these things work, but I think their governments can make a transition that benefits all parties.

lol I understand your concern:smile:, but regardless of how many think otherwise, Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, and in Islamic history people like Salah Aldeen had shown great morality when dealing with non-Muslims, he was a wonderful display of Islamic manners, he was a good man and a great Muslim... and all Muslims would do well to follow in his steps. And I can only hope that all Muslims or at least the ones in charge have the awareness to stick to our Islamic teachings and do the right thing for everyone.

Btw what does dhimmi mean?

Jiraiya

Salaam & Shalom Jiraiya...here's the link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

I too hope that Islam forges a new path...as humanity as a whole has had a collective stumbling block when dealing with "other", and the jockeying for majority control underscores this. If we dealt fairly with one another, the size of the group or box you are assigned to should have no bearing on how we are all treated as human beings...

But thus far, it certainly has...sadly. The only progress Christian-majority ruled (mostly Western) nations have made is the institution of civil law guaranteeing certain universal rights...and then its a matter of who is welcomed in to enjoy them & how well they're enforced in letter and spirit. (Actually to be fair other non-Western nations have also adopted uniform civil codes in the latter part of the 20th century that are inclusive of all or most citizens, so I'm just speaking generally here.)

But nonetheless the progress (by way of humanitarian extensions of the full rights of citizenship) that they've made in the last 50+ years is groundbreaking in the history of humanity. I and many others would hate to see that long-awaited progress undone....

I appreciate your thoughts, as always...& if you have more to add...please do :smile:

Salaam & Shalom,
7L

LadyVirgoxoxo
02-04-2011, 07:24 PM
I feel that Islam holds the most truth for me out of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I went to a mosque two months ago. I loved it and everyone there was very friendly. Last night I went to a Jewish temple and I had the complete opposite experience of that of the mosque. Christianity has mixed reviews for me. Muslims seem to be a very kind, loving people. The Muslims that everyone think aren't are the religious extremists...

The Feather
02-04-2011, 08:31 PM
Okay I actually do not know how I ended up in here, because I know absolutely nothing about any religion.

For me religion is a methodology - a way to get to a certain point, which, in my mind, I believe is the same point no matter what methodlogy we choose is the best for us. I see nothing wrong with any religions, since I don't know anything about them.

Now all my life I have lived my life respecting others for their views and opinions, I have never hated anyone (yes true), always with the intension of the better for all instead of my ego .... well I'm not religious, so therefore not muslim either, where do I stand in the eyes of your God (Allah) then?

To me we are all aiming for the same, we just put different labels on it, and take different roads there, because we as humans are different. In my simpel mind I have always believed, that all religions was about compasion and love.

Why focus on the differences when we have so much in common, no matter what road we take to the goal.

(Now I could ask this question to people with other religious beliefs as well, just asking about muslim, since this is what the tread is about)

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
03-04-2011, 01:45 AM
Okay I actually do not know how I ended up in here, because I know absolutely nothing about any religion.

For me religion is a methodology - a way to get to a certain point, which, in my mind, I believe is the same point no matter what methodlogy we choose is the best for us. I see nothing wrong with any religions, since I don't know anything about them.

Now all my life I have lived my life respecting others for their views and opinions, I have never hated anyone (yes true), always with the intension of the better for all instead of my ego .... well I'm not religious, so therefore not muslim either, where do I stand in the eyes of your God (Allah) then?

To me we are all aiming for the same, we just put different labels on it, and take different roads there, because we as humans are different. In my simpel mind I have always believed, that all religions was about compasion and love.

Why focus on the differences when we have so much in common, no matter what road we take to the goal.

(Now I could ask this question to people with other religious beliefs as well, just asking about muslim, since this is what the tread is about)


hmmm....good question but I don't know, I can only answer this question from my view, and from where I'm standing I still don't know. :rolleyes:
Sorry if I didn't help much, but in my opinion the best person to answer this question is you.

45Uberti
03-04-2011, 05:39 AM
I will give to you the holy truth about religion. It is found in this link here http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2008/05/10-reasons-you-should-never-have-a-religion/

There's nothing else to say.

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
03-04-2011, 12:44 PM
I will give to you the holy truth about religion. It is found in this link here http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2008/05/10-reasons-you-should-never-have-a-religion/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stevepavlina.com%2 Fblog%2F2008%2F05%2F10-reasons-you-should-never-have-a-religion%2F)

There's nothing else to say.

You condemn what you do not understand.

LadyVirgoxoxo
03-04-2011, 08:37 PM
'Tis true ^^^

breath
02-05-2011, 09:09 PM
A few questions for Allah, or one of his followers who knows the answers. I wouldn't type these out in any thread, but this one gets to me and I want to bat the ball back.

You STATE what you believe asif it is fact, asif the words are true and don't need evidence. Well god made me with a powerful mind and this powerful mind needs more than what you just said. So...

"Why give such an easy to manipulate message? It has been used for so many atrocities I'm starting to think it's the bible."

"Why teach a single truth which is so hard for so many to possibly get their heads around?"

"Why contain yourself as a single uniform idea and not allow those with creative liberal minds to achieve connection with you unless they join a strict and scary looking religion that just simply doesn't promote peace in any way except for 1 or 2 groups of followers saying 'islam is peaceful' with absolutely no evidence?"

"Why did you make humans then decide that THEY were wrong for some of the things they've done, when you made them in the way in which they would be able to make mistakes."

"What's the point in punishment if you're god? Surely you're wise enough to be able to explain something so clearly that with even a single syllable all of the human race would understand exactly what they would need to understand."

"Religions? Stupid creation considering you've condemned them all, explain please."

"What's the point of making love so strong when it's accidental, then demanding it from the people you apparently have no control over - why do you have such a weak grasp on the psychology of man when you created us?"

"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

"Stop being a cryptic **** and tell us if you're there, there's nothing convincing to our very well made minds. Surprizing as you created our minds, I'd have assumed you could have convinced them very easily too. But no, you're still fighting for us. wow"

konrard
03-05-2011, 11:43 PM
Islamic Belief:
There is only one God (Allah), the Creator of everything that exists in this universe, including all beings. God does not have any shape or form.
God (Allah) does not have any son, daughter, family member or partner. He is only one and unique. And there is none comparable to Him.
God (Allah) accepts only direct prayer/worship to Him without any mediator.
God (Allah) forgives all kinds of sins if a person repents to Him directly.
God (Allah) sent messengers and prophets with His Message (divine Books) to guide all of mankind.
Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are some of the messengers/prophets of Allah (peace be upon all of them).
All human are born equally and sinless. They all belong to God (Allah). They are created for worshiping God (Allah).
On the Day of Judgment, God (Allah) will resurrect and judge all of the mankind based on their beliefs and actions. Then, He will reward the righteous people with Heaven, and punish the wrong doers with Hell.

I agree with all of the above, but I believe its purely symbolic, you cant take it literally. I think it's saying that we are all born sinless because there is no such thing as sin to begin with. The part about judging and going to hell simply means if you can be 100% forgiving of all illusions and know yourself you will go to "heaven", and if you still believe youre a wrong doer youre not going to "heaven" yet. God forgives all sins if a person repents to him directly seems to mean a direct spiritual experience, the same kind that many of us describe on the forums. If you know you have no sinned, all your illusions of sin are forgiven by another illusion - forgiveness. illusions can lead out of illusions.

jiraiyaNOmonogatari
05-05-2011, 11:58 AM
hi breath,

A few questions for Allah, or one of his followers who knows the answers. I wouldn't type these out in any thread, but this one gets to me and I want to bat the ball back.

You STATE what you believe asif it is fact, asif the words are true and don't need evidence. Well god made me with a powerful mind and this powerful mind needs more than what you just said. So

"Why give such an easy to manipulate message? It has been used for so many atrocities I'm starting to think it's the bible."
I may not agree with the person who made this thread on his approach, however the message needs to be delivered, what you do with it is up to you.

"Why teach a single truth which is so hard for so many to possibly get their heads around?"
Yes it is not easy, good things never are. "Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while such [trial] has not yet come to you as came to those who passed on before you? They were touched by poverty and hardship and were shaken until their messenger and those who believed with him said...."

"Why contain yourself as a single uniform idea and not allow those with creative liberal minds to achieve connection with you unless they join a strict and scary looking religion that just simply doesn't promote peace in any way except for 1 or 2 groups of followers saying 'islam is peaceful' with absolutely no evidence?"
As I said earlier to another member: you condemn what you do not understand.

"Why did you make humans then decide that THEY were wrong for some of the things they've done, when you made them in the way in which they would be able to make mistakes."
Original sin...? we don't believe in it

"What's the point in punishment if you're god? Surely you're wise enough to be able to explain something so clearly that with even a single syllable all of the human race would understand exactly what they would need to understand."
everything is compelled or restrained by Gods will, for example a cat is compelled in every aspect of its life to be a cat, can it choose not to grow claws, be covered by hair, walk on four legs, or stop its heart from beating.
So is the case for us, you can't stop breathing if you choose to, stop your heart, decide you don't need food, but you were given the free will whether
to believe or not, and here comes a choice and a choice is often between something good or something harmful, and with each alternative comes a consequence, everyday you find your self making choices concerning you life
only this is the most important choice you can make.

"Religions? Stupid creation considering you've condemned them all, explain please."
It was always one, it was delivered by many messengers through the ages,
it is mans inclinations that resulted in such diversity.

"What's the point of making love so strong when it's accidental, then demanding it from the people you apparently have no control over - why do you have such a weak grasp on the psychology of man when you created us?"
More like discipline than love what he asks from us.

"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"
............... <==or something like that, is this a trick question?:rolleyes:

"Stop being a cryptic **** and tell us if you're there, there's nothing convincing to our very well made minds. Surprizing as you created our minds, I'd have assumed you could have convinced them very easily too. But no, you're still fighting for us. wow"

I'll tell you what...look at the sky, if you can point out one crack in it, then such imperfection would definitely prove He is not there, so unless anyone can find any error in all his creation, then you can't say he is not there.

Looking forward to your thoughts. :smile:

LadyVirgoxoxo
07-05-2011, 03:14 AM
breath, I'm curious, have you ever been to a mosque or studied up about the religion of Islam? It's really not all you see on tv, it's actually quite a beautiful religion.

breath
11-05-2011, 11:28 PM
hi breath,


I may not agree with the person who made this thread on his approach, however the message needs to be delivered, what you do with it is up to you.


Yes it is not easy, good things never are. "Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while such [trial] has not yet come to you as came to those who passed on before you? They were touched by poverty and hardship and were shaken until their messenger and those who believed with him said...."


As I said earlier to another member: you condemn what you do not understand.


Original sin...? we don't believe in it


everything is compelled or restrained by Gods will, for example a cat is compelled in every aspect of its life to be a cat, can it choose not to grow claws, be covered by hair, walk on four legs, or stop its heart from beating.
So is the case for us, you can't stop breathing if you choose to, stop your heart, decide you don't need food, but you were given the free will whether
to believe or not, and here comes a choice and a choice is often between something good or something harmful, and with each alternative comes a consequence, everyday you find your self making choices concerning you life
only this is the most important choice you can make.


It was always one, it was delivered by many messengers through the ages,
it is mans inclinations that resulted in such diversity.


More like discipline than love what he asks from us.


............... <==or something like that, is this a trick question?:rolleyes:



I'll tell you what...look at the sky, if you can point out one crack in it, then such imperfection would definitely prove He is not there, so unless anyone can find any error in all his creation, then you can't say he is not there.

Looking forward to your thoughts. :smile:

I enjoyed reading all of those answers, thank you. But I don't find them sufficient. The answer to what is the sound of two hands clapping is...

There is no sound, one hand cannot clap as one side of any duality cannot be seen. Evil cannot be experienced without good, belief without disbelief, up without down, etc. It is a metaphor that all things are caught in a duality between them and their opposites. Like you may possibly agree, as Islamic friends have told me that Muslims believe god created everything, including good and evil and we can choose between them.

I enjoy the idea that discipline is asked for rather than love too.

Thanks! :D

breath
11-05-2011, 11:35 PM
breath, I'm curious, have you ever been to a mosque or studied up about the religion of Islam? It's really not all you see on tv, it's actually quite a beautiful religion.

I grew up in Luton which has a massive multicultural center. Sadly it is the subject of controversy now, as what was during it's youth generation extremely friendly and accepting quickly became aggressive when the rest of the youth of the town found out the very very big muslim population in the town was asking for shariah law. There is also extremist sections in the town, so now sadly the white luton people are EDL and BNP. Understandable, but bad.

But sure, during my childhood I spent most of my time with muslims and muslim families, and often had a good conversation with islamic taxi drivers and friends who grew up in muslim families but tried to leave. I've heard my share of first hand accounts of the negativities of most abrahamic beliefs hence my easy disregard of them.

I'm sure it is poetically beautiful. One of my favorite parts of the qur an is where it says something like. 'if a book was to have the full word of god within it, it would take up more ink than could be taken if the entire ocean was made of ink'. Love that.

LadyVirgoxoxo
12-05-2011, 02:00 AM
Ahh interesting. For about four of my school years I grew up around a lot of Muslim friends. It's really not the religion that's the problem, it's just certain followers.

aser's homie
17-05-2011, 07:46 PM
Islam keys of factors yearn too much like a little babe young one seeing he deserves all the candy pop sticks in the convenient delicious candy store.

Yet, people are happy with what they are served in Islam day in -day out. Contestors say Islam is selfish/self-fish.
I think Islam is happy with it's doctrine of root-beer if you know what I mean.
My ponderings are if contestors think Islam needs a lady's touch?

Big strong liger that seeks it's prey is what I respect out of Islam, this private matter takes the scapes of dominatus and resigns what seems to the other little babe young ones unworthy to the candy to not get any other than selfully served.

I have taste for Islam to prosper, it's conditioning is off the concrete if you know what I mean. I don't really care about anything out there on the news, it's all a happy little dance loco mayhem and I would enjoy to marry a Muslim for her treasure chest of heart, they're very good and pretty at that though. Everything seems like a puzzle out there.

lotusflower
28-05-2011, 05:56 PM
I converted to Islam and now I am not a muslim.I left Islam a couple years back.His is your truth not everyones and definitly I found this is not my truth

thelastman
30-05-2011, 07:15 AM
The essence of Islam is oneness of God. Merely to say one believes in oneness of God is just a concept in the mind. What is important to actualize it, to make it a living experience. To experience the Unity of God, one has to realize the unity in its wholeness, permeating and uniting all aspects of life. Only such uniting of aspects will allow one to experience the Unity of God in true meaning. For else, while in theory one is believing in Oneness of God, in practice one is constructing absract little demi-realities for oneself. Unless all of these are woven together to form one True Reality, de-facto understanding of Oneness has not been achieved.

How does one go about achieving this Unity? The primary thing to understand is that it is not the visible aspects of any experience or action which really matter in this quest for Unity, it is the underlying intentions and the inner meanings of all aspects which are really important. The same action may appear to be bad or good depending upon the inner intentions of the doer. The Prophet of Islam fought wars and so did the Meccan idolators, but the governing intention behind their actions differentiated who was in the right and who was in the wrong. Likewise, Cain slew and so did Hazrat Khidr, but it is said that while the former was wrong the latter was certainly right.

It is important to realize that the appearance of things is very different from the reality of things. The Prophet prayed, "Lord, show me things as they really are", precisely for this purpose. If a lion is tearing the flesh of his pray or a volcano is erupting, or a meteor crashes on earth, these appear as actions in the ordinary scheme of things. Apparently, they seem to have nothing in common with God's oneness. But this is precisely, where the deception comes in. We are so used to thinking of God and related ideas in closed bracketed terms that such things appear far removed to us, whereas in reality, these are as much part of religion and spirituality as much say, prayer, charity and supplication is. The reason that it doesnt appear so to us, is precisely because we are not at that stage yet where we can truly understand and believe in the Oneness of God. Hence, the Quran says "The seven heavens and the earth and all that is therein praise Him, and there is not a thing but hymneth his praise; but ye understand not their praise."(17:44)

The idea of this Unity can be understood and actualized once one has grasped that everything (other then man) behaving in according with Unity automatically. Seemingly diverse phenomena are all woven together harmoniously to become a reflection of God's oneness (wahdat). By acceding ones own self to this harmony, (or to use the Islamic word, by surrendering to it) one can actualize this Unity. This means, every action, every thought, every thing of a person must be in accordance with the divine plan one has in front of him. This may sound constricting to some, but for them it can't be helped. Imam Ghazali, a famous scholar of Islam, beautifully described this thus "Are you ready to cut off your head and place your foot on it? If so, come; Love awaits you! Love is not grown in a garden, nor sold in the marketplace; whether you are a king or a servant, the price is your head, and nothing less. Yes, the cost of the elixir of love is your head! Do you hesitate? O miser, It is cheap at that price!"

Now what is meant by the concept of Islamic peace. It is nothing but the practicing of this oneness itself, i.e. practicing "Islam" itself in a sense, indeed the word Islam literally means peace. Any society, or individual, which is totally in harmony with God's design (or howsoever it perceives the metaphysical Reality) is practicing Islamic peace. If you are a student by studying for your exams you are practicing Islamic peace, if you are employed by working honestly in the office you are practicing Islamic peace and so on.

According to the Quran, everything has a natural attitude which is primordial to it. The Absolute (in other words God, for He is referred to in the Quran as such as well, "...(God is), the Absolute -112:2 ") or the really real behind everything is what Muslims mean by God ("Whersover you may look there is the face of God"-2:115). To say Allah is to use a symbol, what really matters is the Reality behind the name. ("It is all the same whether you call Him God or the Beneficent. All the good names belong to Him." - 17:110) Everything in the universe is the state of harmony with this Reality. It follows the path chartered out for it, and hence reflects this Reality back. The Quran calls this speaking of God's glory by the universe "The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings in there, speak His Glory: There is not a thing which does not celebrates His Praise; And yet you do not understand how they declare His Glory! -17:44". The primary message of the Prophet was simply to make people recognize this natural urge in them, and to pursue it. The urge takes them on the path of righteousness. It makes them just and true, kind and humble, and receptive to the real Reality of God. Thus Islam is call for harmony with that primordial state. You can translate Islam as "peace" which in the above sense, is the state when everything is in harmony (or in a state of surrender) to this primordial state.
The Quran gives many pointers to indicate that the shariat as given by Muhammad (pbuh) of today is not the only Islamic way of life.("And they say, "None but Jews or Christians shall enter Paradise" ; This is their wish. Say : Give your proofs if ye speak the truth. But they who set their face with resignation God-ward, and do what is right, -their reward is with their Lord ; no fear shall come on them, neither shall they grieve" 2: 111-2) Nor does the Quran never asks people to give up their former religions, and in fact never brought about a new religion at all. In fact, since there was no Arabic word for religion (the word deen is better translated as way of life), the topic is unfortunately not directly quoted in the Quran. However it is said: "Verily, they who believe and they who follow the Jewish religion, and the Christians, and the Sabaeana - whosoever believeth in God and the last day, and doeth that which is right, shall have their reward with their Lord : fear shall not come upon them, neither shall they grieve.2:62".

Throughout the Quran the message is always to ask people to discard wrong doings and turn towards God. According to it, if they did so and returned to the original teachings of whatever religion they were following they would have found that it was the same Islam to which Muhammad (pbuh) was calling them too. Din or the real religion of God is devotion to God and righteous living. Whatever be the race or community or country one belonged to, if only he believed in God and did righteous deeds, he was a follower of the Din of God, and salvation was his reward.The Quran condemns the Jews and Christians of Prophet Muhammad's time who had divided themselves into groups on the basis of religion and had devised codes of conduct exclusive to themselves. Such people had relegated the concept of faith and righteousness in the background by devising and splitting up into "religions". This defeated the purpose itself in a sense. For example a person who was good and an ardent devotee of God, if he was not a Christian was thus considered outside the circle of the ones being saved by th Christians, and on the other hand even if he was wicked though professed to be a Christian could still hope for salvation in the end. This groupism was rejected by the Quran which had a message for all humanity: Be good and turn towards God and you will be rewarded.

"Others of the people of the Book say : "And believe in those only who follow your religion." (But you) Say: "True guidance is guidance from God'- that to others may be
imparted the like of what hath been imparted to you. Will they wrangle then with you in the presence of their Lord ? Say : "Plenteous gifts are in the hands of God. He imparteth them unto whom He will, and God is bounteous, wise."-3:73-4.

The approach of Hindu thought in particular bears striking resemblace to this. Your dharma is your deen, the Truth is one but the ways are different. This discernment between the way and the Truth is one of the core ideas to inculcate to understand the unity underlying the external actions.

The above view is not original, but has been developed by Sufi Saints (Hazrat Nizamuddin Awliya, Mazhar Jan-i-Janan, Shah Waliullah) and scholars such as Mawlana Abul Kalam Azad. It is known in the literature as wahdat-e-deen (Unity of Religions).

Celeste
22-11-2011, 03:50 AM
The absolute truth is, there is no absolute truth. There are many roads that lead to Heaven.

MMM
22-11-2011, 06:15 AM
i am really sick of the islamobashing/christianbashing/relidgonbashing pervelent in the world today

cast no stones

some people think they're on the 'only path' - well, all i can say is god bless'em all

Mathew James
23-11-2011, 06:07 PM
"Why teach a single truth which is so hard for so many to possibly get their heads around?"



Islam is the easy way and the only Truth. It is only hard for non-believers.


mj

BlackWolf
24-11-2011, 01:33 PM
Islam is not the only truth.

Christianity is not the only truth.

NO religion is the only truth.

As Celeste said, many roads lead to heaven.

For anyone to say their religion is the only true religion is pure ignorance.

Mathew James
24-11-2011, 02:45 PM
Islam is not the only truth.

Christianity is not the only truth.

NO religion is the only truth.

As Celeste said, many roads lead to heaven.

For anyone to say their religion is the only true religion is pure ignorance.


What you say is true. God gave nature to humanity so that we can know God. And God seals the truth in every humans hand. And prophets have been sent to every nation. But and a very big BUT, if you stay within the framework of the three Abrahamic religions who use the Book (Torah, Gospel, Qur'an) the Truth ends up being in the last of the three, that is according to what the Book says.

mj

BlackWolf
24-11-2011, 02:52 PM
MJ, That is also very true! Good point!:wink:

Chrode
04-12-2011, 03:00 AM
Just fearing Allah will not help someone to go to heaven for eternity. Allah is the Truth Judge, and He will judge people based on their beliefs and actions. Beliefs without actions is called hypocrite and they will be in the bottom of the Hell.

Allah wants us to forgive ourselves, that is the most kind thing that we can do to ourselves.


Muslims donít belief that angels worshiped human. All worship is due to Allah (God) alone from all of His creations including all beings, sun, moon, stars. Angels only can worship Allah alone. They donít have free will like human. They have only one option, they only can follow the commands of Allah.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8Wz3W11Ryc

Mathew James
04-12-2011, 04:49 PM
that is nice Chrode, the ostrich thing actually did look like the shape of the earth. If you think about it, an egg would even have the crust and the liquid/solid mantles the same way as the earth. The thing with the volcanos having roots after the magma cools is also interesting. I think the Qur'an explains things that way because it uses very simple concepts to descibe some very complex things.


mj

Chrode
11-12-2011, 02:13 AM
For anyone to say their religion is the only true religion is pure ignorance.

Can i ask why?

Love Wisdom Truth
12-12-2011, 04:50 PM
People are given the free will to believe in whatever they wish. But there are many things in Islam that I find hard to accept.
1. Women are not equal to men. This is a fact which many Muslims deny. (Example: Women in Saudi Arabia are not allowed to go out without male escort, are not allowed to drive a car and etc.... )
2. Muslim men can marry a girl as young as 9 year old. (Where are the rights of the children for a normal childhood?)
3. Muslims are allowed to charge tax non Muslims in their countries for not being Muslims. (Where is the equality among all people?)
.......
There are many other things which I have no interest to point out, but which IMO are putting stumbling blocks in the progress of the Islamic countries.

I really wish the Muslims great prosperity in life. May God bless them.

TheWizard
30-12-2011, 12:43 AM
I have spent a few days pondering exactly what to say. I would like to elaborate on something Time was saying with some of my own thoughts.

I think and strongly believe that any wrong, even in the name of right is still a wrong. I would also like to stress that anything that causes another person suffering is a wrong as it is counterproductive to the harmony of life.

With this said, everytime we cause another to suffer, even in the name of justice, we teach them to cause suffering, we give them reason to cause suffering and we continue to doom our world with suffering. Not only this but we also teach ourselves and all other's, who are directly and indirectly involved, to cause others suffering. Especially in the case of justice, repaying evil for evil, we believe it is to teach them not to cause suffering or the errors of suffering, but truly it just makes them suffer more which inturn makes others suffer from their 'wrath'.

The justice that comes from concepts such as an eye for an eye, only works for a temporary time but it does not cure the true problem, people causing others to suffer. It is merely a bandaid over a gaping wound.

Thus the greatest, hidden, truth is that if we continue to retaliate to suffering with causing more suffering it will only continue to starve the world of the light it strongly deserves.

I believe this is the greatest teaching that the prophets shared and is also the most neglected of the teachings. If someone causes us pain we nearly believe it is our duty to return their action with an equal, negative, action. But i say to you that if you return their suffering, if you reward an eye taken by taking an eye it will only make the whole world blind, no pun intended.

I would like to state i am not christian or religious by any accepted means.

Jesus said, go forth and sin no more, go forth and cause no man suffering. For suffering will only spread and continue to doom our world and take all manners of man away from the true word of light, shared by the prophets.

The biggest lie in human history is that causing another to suffer for righteous reasons is right. If it continues our worlds pain, how then it is truly the right action?

God is said to be good and righteous. If an action causes another to suffer, which causes another to suffer and so on, how is this a good and righteous action? Is this not why our world is in darkness now? Is this not why the prophets have taught us in the first place, to avoid such darkness.

If we truly forgive. Not only people who do us wrong but all the wrong we've done and has been done to humanity we lose the desire to cause suffering. By losing this desire we begin to care deeply for everyone. By caring deeply for everyone we seek to help them instead of hinder them. Thus Forgiveness is the key to the path of Salvation.

Furthermore, hate, anger, violence, control all cause suffering to other people and is a great problem in the world. Yet alot of religions and cultures in this world (throughout history) have been wrapped around hatred for one type of person or others who do not follow 'the word'.

Is it not said that the body is a temple, holy and sacred? How then is one better then another because of what one believes? It is not the actions of each man that truly measures his merit? How then can one believe himself holier then another because of the book he reads, or the culture he was raised in.

Anyone who causes another to suffer, causes suffering to the world, to the source of all creation and to all who are closely associated with the action, both in the moment and in the passing of time.

I may have said more then i needed too but I mean no disrespect, merely my observations of humanity.

And this I believe is one of the aspects of the Absolute Truth which is widely sought out by the wise and curious.

May peace bless you and Happy Holidays

psychoslice
30-12-2011, 01:50 AM
For anyone, from any religion to believe that their religion is the absolute truth, that all the rest are wrong, are absolutely ignorant.

Gracey
30-12-2011, 01:54 AM
from what i have been told by my Muslim friend is that the Qur'an came about to put the focus back on god because Christians are using Jesus as a false idol. i really don't know though.
i rely on my own experiences to know who i am as a whole.

TheWizard
31-12-2011, 05:29 AM
The overall question being, If something causes suffering to the system is it really productive?

Mathew James
03-01-2012, 08:40 PM
...Thus the greatest, hidden, truth is that if we continue to retaliate to suffering with causing more suffering it will only continue to starve the world of the light it strongly deserves.

I believe this is the greatest teaching that the prophets shared and is also the most neglected of the teachings...


well put Wizard. it is amazing that one of the most important things to remember is also one of the easiest to forget.


mj

jalini
05-01-2012, 02:44 AM
With this said, everytime we cause another to suffer, even in the name of justice, we teach them to cause suffering, we give them reason to cause suffering and we continue to doom our world with suffering. Not only this but we also teach ourselves and all other's, who are directly and indirectly involved, to cause others suffering. Especially in the case of justice, repaying evil for evil, we believe it is to teach them not to cause suffering or the errors of suffering, but truly it just makes them suffer more which inturn makes others suffer from their 'wrath'.


First one must define suffering.
Secondly, is suffering by being in expectation a choice?
Thirdly, if one is not in expectation, can they suffer?

Blessings, jalini

gentledove
08-01-2012, 06:38 PM
Muhammad is the final messenger and prophet of God (Allah).

Why is Muhammad the final messenger of God? If God has a history of sending messengers in the past, why would he stop?

Mathew James
09-01-2012, 01:21 AM
why would he stop?

the last prophet delivered the Qur'an and the Qur'an does not ever get corrupted, so no more messengers are required. All of the previous messengers delivered the Word of God faithfully, but those messages became corrupted.

mj

jalini
10-01-2012, 03:10 AM
gentledove,

Why is Muhammad the final messenger of God? If God has a history of sending messengers in the past, why would he stop?

I have struggled with this as well. All the "pat" answers do not satisfy the hunger in the question.

To date, that question has never been answered to fulfill my heart or mind . Keep questing and perhaps you can find the truth and come back and share ! :love1:

Blessings, jalini

slave of Allaah
10-01-2012, 05:28 PM
the last prophet delivered the Qur'an and the Qur'an does not ever get corrupted, so no more messengers are required. All of the previous messengers delivered the Word of God faithfully, but those messages became corrupted.

mj

I agree with this mj

God already gave me water, why do I ignore it then ask for one?!

It is there already, but the problem is in me.

slave of Allaah
10-01-2012, 05:44 PM
People are given the free will to believe in whatever they wish. But there are many things in Islam that I find hard to accept.
1. Women are not equal to men. This is a fact which many Muslims deny.
Men and women are different. So it is not right to equalize them in every thing.

They are equal in some areas and different in others.


2. Muslim men can marry a girl as young as 9 year old. (Where are the rights of the children for a normal childhood?)
Marriage is a project to build life. All ages are welcome in such project.

If marriage is going to be destructive, it is banned.

btw, what is your reference for what is right or wrong?


3. Muslims are allowed to charge tax non Muslims in their countries for not being Muslims. (Where is the equality among all people?)
Non muslims don't pay Zakah (tax set by God on people) as muslims do. They don't want to be equal.

Thus, they need to pay Jiziah (tax set by muslim leaders).

If someone doesn't want God's judgment to pass over him, he will be set under the judgment of the slaves.

Love Wisdom Truth
11-01-2012, 04:48 PM
.......

Marriage is a project to build life. All ages are welcome in such project.
..... .

I am sorry, but how a girl as young as 9 year old is fit to become a mother?

Smart people marry after they are developed physically and mentally well enough to be able to take good care of their children. We are human beings able to think, not animals interested only in eating and multiplying.

Men and women are different. So it is not right to equalize them in every thing.

They are equal in some areas and different in others.

.......

We all know that men and women are different. But how's that a reason to take from women basic human rights, like freedom of movement, personal choice to choose their own husband etc.? Millions of little girls living in Muslim countries are forced into marriages. (What if you were a 9 year girl given to a 50 year old man and forced in his bed? How would you like it?) How's that allowed by God?

God's law of Love is: "Give others freedom as you would give freedom for yourself", "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
If a religion is not about Love (understand Divine Love, unselfish) it is not from God.

Often people who have inherited a house which has tons of rotten beams from their grand, grand, grand fathers are holding on to it like it is a precious gem. If you like it so much, replace the rotten wood with a new one so you can have a good house.

So is with ideas. People get rotten ideas from their parents and grand, grand parents and think they are all gold.

slave of Allaah
11-01-2012, 06:46 PM
Love Wisdom Truth!

You didn't answer my question.


what is your reference for what is right or wrong?

One more question:

Do you have the right to control what you own as you wish?

Love Wisdom Truth
11-01-2012, 07:08 PM
Love Wisdom Truth!

You didn't answer my question.



One more question:

Do you have the right to control what you own as you wish?

1. You know what is right and wrong by their fruits.

2. What is yours? Yours is only this which no one can take away from you.

(People say: "This is my house, car etc. ... Did they make the metals, the trees and the other materials themselves? No, they borrowed them from Nature and used them for their benefit. People control and possess material things only temporary - maximum 120 years.)

Mathew James
11-01-2012, 07:39 PM
God already gave me water, why do I ignore it then ask for one?!



well said slave of allaah and peace be onto you always, why is it that people do not drink the water? they ignore the pure crystal clear water of the Qur'an and choose to complain about meaningless things

mj

-«harismo-
12-01-2012, 06:05 AM
I'm truly saddened by some of the misunderstandings and confusion regarding Islam. If one takes the time to study what it's really about and READ The Qu'ran you will begin to realize that prophet Muhammad actually promoted tolerance in regards to other religions and held the Jew's and Christians to a very high standard. Their are numerous times in the Qu'ran where they are referenced as -- The people of the book (Christians and Jews). Hence, Prophet Muhammad acknowledges the Christian & Jewish faiths. Even after his death when Muslims conquered Syria -- in Damascus they actually prayed with Christians in their church without any conflict. So again Islam is very tolerant and respectful of other belief systems it's only when things are taken out of context and not understood properly when you have ignorance and confusion.

For example the word Jihad does NOT mean "Holy-war". Jihad in Arabic means to struggle or surrender. In the west anytime someone even mentions that word it's automatically assumed to be something militaristic which is completely wrong.

Originally posted by:- Love Wisdom Truth

I am sorry, but how a girl as young as 9 year old is fit to become a mother?

Smart people marry after they are developed physically and mentally well enough to be able to take good care of their children. We are human beings able to think, not animals interested only in eating and multiplying.

This right here just screams ignorance and your lack of knowledge. Where exactly does it say that in The Qu'ran!? Please provide me references or even verses where it says that. Let me explain things to you for further information. IF this was happening it was probably during the Pre-Islamic era where the Quraysh had an absolute barbaric lifestyle. They worshiped idols and were at constant war with each other. They had no concept of spirituality. I don't even know where you got that from or maybe you heard something from someone that didn't know what they were talking about so please provide me your source of information.

-«harismo-
12-01-2012, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by :- Love Truth Wisdom

People are given the free will to believe in whatever they wish. But there are many things in Islam that I find hard to accept.
1. Women are not equal to men. This is a fact which many Muslims deny. (Example: Women in Saudi Arabia are not allowed to go out without male escort, are not allowed to drive a car and etc.... )
2. Muslim men can marry a girl as young as 9 year old. (Where are the rights of the children for a normal childhood?)
3. Muslims are allowed to charge tax non Muslims in their countries for not being Muslims. (Where is the equality among all people?)
.......
There are many other things which I have no interest to point out, but which IMO are putting stumbling blocks in the progress of the Islamic countries.

I really wish the Muslims great prosperity in life. May God bless them.

You have just proved to everyone how much of a bigot you are to label, condemn, categorize, generalize and most of all judge an entire faith due to the ill-actions of the few. On top of that you are very much misinformed and blind to your own ignorance. Congratulations!

What exactly is your faith or are you an atheist!?

-«harismo-
12-01-2012, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by:- thelastman

The essence of Islam is oneness of God. Merely to say one believes in oneness of God is just a concept in the mind. What is important to actualize it, to make it a living experience. To experience the Unity of God, one has to realize the unity in its wholeness, permeating and uniting all aspects of life. Only such uniting of aspects will allow one to experience the Unity of God in true meaning. For else, while in theory one is believing in Oneness of God, in practice one is constructing absract little demi-realities for oneself. Unless all of these are woven together to form one True Reality, de-facto understanding of Oneness has not been achieved.

How does one go about achieving this Unity? The primary thing to understand is that it is not the visible aspects of any experience or action which really matter in this quest for Unity, it is the underlying intentions and the inner meanings of all aspects which are really important. The same action may appear to be bad or good depending upon the inner intentions of the doer. The Prophet of Islam fought wars and so did the Meccan idolators, but the governing intention behind their actions differentiated who was in the right and who was in the wrong. Likewise, Cain slew and so did Hazrat Khidr, but it is said that while the former was wrong the latter was certainly right.

It is important to realize that the appearance of things is very different from the reality of things. The Prophet prayed, "Lord, show me things as they really are", precisely for this purpose. If a lion is tearing the flesh of his pray or a volcano is erupting, or a meteor crashes on earth, these appear as actions in the ordinary scheme of things. Apparently, they seem to have nothing in common with God's oneness. But this is precisely, where the deception comes in. We are so used to thinking of God and related ideas in closed bracketed terms that such things appear far removed to us, whereas in reality, these are as much part of religion and spirituality as much say, prayer, charity and supplication is. The reason that it doesnt appear so to us, is precisely because we are not at that stage yet where we can truly understand and believe in the Oneness of God. Hence, the Quran says "The seven heavens and the earth and all that is therein praise Him, and there is not a thing but hymneth his praise; but ye understand not their praise."(17:44)

The idea of this Unity can be understood and actualized once one has grasped that everything (other then man) behaving in according with Unity automatically. Seemingly diverse phenomena are all woven together harmoniously to become a reflection of God's oneness (wahdat). By acceding ones own self to this harmony, (or to use the Islamic word, by surrendering to it) one can actualize this Unity. This means, every action, every thought, every thing of a person must be in accordance with the divine plan one has in front of him. This may sound constricting to some, but for them it can't be helped. Imam Ghazali, a famous scholar of Islam, beautifully described this thus "Are you ready to cut off your head and place your foot on it? If so, come; Love awaits you! Love is not grown in a garden, nor sold in the marketplace; whether you are a king or a servant, the price is your head, and nothing less. Yes, the cost of the elixir of love is your head! Do you hesitate? O miser, It is cheap at that price!"

Now what is meant by the concept of Islamic peace. It is nothing but the practicing of this oneness itself, i.e. practicing "Islam" itself in a sense, indeed the word Islam literally means peace. Any society, or individual, which is totally in harmony with God's design (or howsoever it perceives the metaphysical Reality) is practicing Islamic peace. If you are a student by studying for your exams you are practicing Islamic peace, if you are employed by working honestly in the office you are practicing Islamic peace and so on.

According to the Quran, everything has a natural attitude which is primordial to it. The Absolute (in other words God, for He is referred to in the Quran as such as well, "...(God is), the Absolute -112:2 ") or the really real behind everything is what Muslims mean by God ("Whersover you may look there is the face of God"-2:115). To say Allah is to use a symbol, what really matters is the Reality behind the name. ("It is all the same whether you call Him God or the Beneficent. All the good names belong to Him." - 17:110) Everything in the universe is the state of harmony with this Reality. It follows the path chartered out for it, and hence reflects this Reality back. The Quran calls this speaking of God's glory by the universe "The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings in there, speak His Glory: There is not a thing which does not celebrates His Praise; And yet you do not understand how they declare His Glory! -17:44". The primary message of the Prophet was simply to make people recognize this natural urge in them, and to pursue it. The urge takes them on the path of righteousness. It makes them just and true, kind and humble, and receptive to the real Reality of God. Thus Islam is call for harmony with that primordial state. You can translate Islam as "peace" which in the above sense, is the state when everything is in harmony (or in a state of surrender) to this primordial state.
The Quran gives many pointers to indicate that the shariat as given by Muhammad (pbuh) of today is not the only Islamic way of life.("And they say, "None but Jews or Christians shall enter Paradise" ; This is their wish. Say : Give your proofs if ye speak the truth. But they who set their face with resignation God-ward, and do what is right, -their reward is with their Lord ; no fear shall come on them, neither shall they grieve" 2: 111-2) Nor does the Quran never asks people to give up their former religions, and in fact never brought about a new religion at all. In fact, since there was no Arabic word for religion (the word deen is better translated as way of life), the topic is unfortunately not directly quoted in the Quran. However it is said: "Verily, they who believe and they who follow the Jewish religion, and the Christians, and the Sabaeana - whosoever believeth in God and the last day, and doeth that which is right, shall have their reward with their Lord : fear shall not come upon them, neither shall they grieve.2:62".

Throughout the Quran the message is always to ask people to discard wrong doings and turn towards God. According to it, if they did so and returned to the original teachings of whatever religion they were following they would have found that it was the same Islam to which Muhammad (pbuh) was calling them too. Din or the real religion of God is devotion to God and righteous living. Whatever be the race or community or country one belonged to, if only he believed in God and did righteous deeds, he was a follower of the Din of God, and salvation was his reward.The Quran condemns the Jews and Christians of Prophet Muhammad's time who had divided themselves into groups on the basis of religion and had devised codes of conduct exclusive to themselves. Such people had relegated the concept of faith and righteousness in the background by devising and splitting up into "religions". This defeated the purpose itself in a sense. For example a person who was good and an ardent devotee of God, if he was not a Christian was thus considered outside the circle of the ones being saved by th Christians, and on the other hand even if he was wicked though professed to be a Christian could still hope for salvation in the end. This groupism was rejected by the Quran which had a message for all humanity: Be good and turn towards God and you will be rewarded.

"Others of the people of the Book say : "And believe in those only who follow your religion." (But you) Say: "True guidance is guidance from God'- that to others may be
imparted the like of what hath been imparted to you. Will they wrangle then with you in the presence of their Lord ? Say : "Plenteous gifts are in the hands of God. He imparteth them unto whom He will, and God is bounteous, wise."-3:73-4.

The approach of Hindu thought in particular bears striking resemblace to this. Your dharma is your deen, the Truth is one but the ways are different. This discernment between the way and the Truth is one of the core ideas to inculcate to understand the unity underlying the external actions.

The above view is not original, but has been developed by Sufi Saints (Hazrat Nizamuddin Awliya, Mazhar Jan-i-Janan, Shah Waliullah) and scholars such as Mawlana Abul Kalam Azad. It is known in the literature as wahdat-e-deen (Unity of Religions).

Great post!!

Love Wisdom Truth
12-01-2012, 08:42 AM
I'm truly saddened by some of the misunderstandings and confusion regarding Islam. If one takes the time to study what it's really about and READ The Qu'ran you will begin to realize that prophet Muhammad actually promoted tolerance in regards to other religions and held the Jew's a.......


This right here just screams ignorance and your lack of knowledge. Where exactly does it say that in The Qu'ran!? Please provide me references or even verses where it says that. ......

Learn about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha.

MMM
12-01-2012, 08:53 AM
To equate the actions dictated by the country of Saudi Arabia to the whole of Islam
is like
equating the actions of the State of Utah (eg deductions for state income tax for LDS activities and alcohol control laws) to the whole of Christianity

women drive in other countries governed by Islam
there are minimum ages for marriage in other countries governed by Islam
there are no taxes for non-muslims in countries governed by Islam (that I know of)

can't we all just get along?

slave of Allaah
12-01-2012, 11:47 AM
@ mathew: thank you brother. BTW, I don't deserve peace. I deserve Hell. but thanks for the wishes. Peace be onto you.


1. You know what is right and wrong by their fruits.
Yes. This is the reason Saudi Arabia ban women from driving cars.

btw, women were riding their camels and hourses at the time of of prophet Mohammad, peace be upon him. Islam did not ban them.


2. What is yours? Yours is only this which no one can take away from you.

So, do you have the right to control what you own as you wish?

Love Wisdom Truth
12-01-2012, 10:19 PM
@ mathew: thank you brother. BTW, I don't deserve peace. I deserve Hell. but thanks for the wishes. Peace be onto you.



Yes. This is the reason Saudi Arabia ban women from driving cars.

btw, women were riding their camels and hourses at the time of of prophet Mohammad, peace be upon him. Islam did not ban them.


So, do you have the right to control what you own as you wish?

I gave you the answer above, but you didn't get it.
What is this that you want to control so much that you want to get my moral approval so you can feel better? Is it a human being, or a material thing you want to control?

-«harismo-
13-01-2012, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by:- Love Wisdom Truth

Learn about Muhammad's marriage to Aisha.

What exactly is their to learn about it!? Please enlighten me. :confused:

slave of Allaah
14-01-2012, 07:13 AM
...
Narrated by 'Aisha
I asked the Prophet, "O Allah's Apostle! Should the women be asked for their consent to their marriage?" He said, "Yes." I said, "A virgin, if asked, feels shy and keeps quiet." He said, "Her silence means her consent." [Sahih Bukari]

Narrated by Ibn 'Abbas
Barira's husband was a slave called Mughith, as if I am seeing him now, going behind Barira and weeping with his tears flowing down his beard. The Prophet said to 'Abbas, "O 'Abbas ! are you not astonished at the love of Mughith for Barira and the hatred of Barira for Mughith?" The Prophet then said to Barira, "Why don't you return to him?" She said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you order me to do so?" He said, "No, I only intercede for him." She said, "I am not in need of him." [Sahih Bukari]

Narrated by Abu Huraira
The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)." [Sahih Bukari]


So, it is not true that women have no choice in marriage.

Now regarding my question to you:

Our reference for what is right and what is wrong, what is lawful and what is forbidden is our Lord who created us.

Thus, no matter what people do, if it is lawful according to God's rule, we should shut our mouth up.

Note:
Your body is not yours. You are just given the control over it. You didn't make it, and you don't know many things in it.

Love Wisdom Truth
14-01-2012, 06:27 PM
...
Narrated by 'Aisha
I asked the Prophet, "O Allah's Apostle! Should the women be asked for their consent to their marriage?" He said, "Yes." I said, "A virgin, if asked, feels shy and keeps quiet." He said, "Her silence means her consent." [Sahih Bukari]

.......

And why did Mohammad make a contract for marriage with Aisha's father for Aisha?
Are 6 year old girls mature enough to make marriage contracts with 50 year old men?

(6 year old children don't even know how to read and write let alone be able to make one of the most important things in their lives - marriage agreements.)

No one intelligent person will buy a belief system where children as young as 9 year old are tricked or forced into marriage. Do you understand that it is a serious crime to marry a child in most countries in the world except some muslim? Do you realize that Mohammad's marriage to the 9 year old Aisha has given in a way a green light for sexual abuse of young girls? And you want us to accept that belief system as Divine one.
Sorry man that is not the best part in the Quran. Stick only to the good things in the Quran

slave of Allaah
14-01-2012, 09:24 PM
...

Did Aisha ask you for help/interfere or was she happy with her hero?

You are complaining about God's decision for them.

We don't.

.."To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. Peace be to you. We seek not the ignorants." (55) [Quran: Ch.28]

...

MMM
14-01-2012, 10:33 PM
slaveof allah wasn't quoting the quran
he was quoting hadith
BIG DIFFERENCE

who cares about a aisha,
really?

Love Wisdom Truth
15-01-2012, 05:01 PM
...

Did Aisha ask you for help/interfere or was she happy with her hero?

You are complaining about God's decision for them.

We don't.
...

...

People can fall in love with anything, even with things that are harmful to them or to others for personal pleasure.

God's commandment is: " Do to others as you would have them do to you."
I don't like to engage in this kind of discussions about Islam, but Muslim women need any support they can get.
The marriage of the 9 year old Aisha to Mohammad was agreed between her father and Mohammad when she was 6 year old. It was their decision, God had no part in it.
It is sad that even in the 21st century there are people who believe it is a God given right they can marry their under-aged daughters to any man even 40 years older than their daughters. I personally know Afghan man who's sister had been given into marriage to a man almost 40 years older than her. He told me she hates her husband, but has no choice, but stay with him. Imagine growing up in such a family with no love between the parents?

Mathew James
15-01-2012, 10:53 PM
There is a huge difference between 'arranged' marriages and 'forced' marriages. The benefits of arranged marriages have been around longer than most other forms of matchmaking. The modern day method of people going out with as many people as they can until they find or not find an acceptable partner has not been proven to be a better method.

Arranged marriages are as good or bad as the people arranging them. How much do people trust their parents these days verses 1,000+ years ago?


mj

ryeu
16-01-2012, 02:46 PM
what is the source of Aisha's age when marry to Muhammad? Is it in hadith?

slave of Allaah
16-01-2012, 02:56 PM
what is the source of Aisha's age when marry to Muhammad? Is it in hadith?
Yes, it is in the Hadith.

Narrated by 'Aisha
That the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). [Sahih Bukhari]


Narrated by 'Aisha
Allah's Apostle said, "You were shown to me in a dream. An angel brought you to me, wrapped in a piece of silken cloth, and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I removed the piece of cloth from your face, and there you were. I said to myself. 'If it is from Allah, then it will surely be.' " [Sahih Bukhari]

ryeu
16-01-2012, 03:14 PM
Thank you slave of Allaah.

I think many people just take advantage of Islam rules for their personal pleasure. So the desire comes first, when it is protested then they use some rules that seems supporting them.

slave of Allaah
16-01-2012, 04:30 PM
Thank you slave of Allaah.

I think many people just take advantage of Islam rules for their personal pleasure. So the desire comes first, when it is protested then they use some rules that seems supporting them.

Hi ryeu,

You are welcome, and you are right.

LadyVirgoxoxo
16-01-2012, 06:56 PM
How old was Muhammed when he married Aisha?

slave of Allaah
16-01-2012, 09:18 PM
How old was Muhammed when he married Aisha?
The prophet went to His Lord when he was 63 years old.

So, he was 53-54 when he married Aisha, peace be upon them.

Love Wisdom Truth
18-01-2012, 08:21 PM
Thank you slave of Allaah.

I think many people just take advantage of Islam rules for their personal pleasure. So the desire comes first, when it is protested then they use some rules that seems supporting them.

Do you mean by that men using under-aged girls and women as it fits them, like they are their own personal property and use passages in the Quran to justify their actions?

(Obviously people have to go through tons of sufferings until they get rid off their delusions.)

ryeu
21-01-2012, 07:40 AM
Hi Love Wisdom Truth,

I have a friend who smoke. He told me that as a passive smoker I have more risk to have lung cancer than him. So he suggested me to smoke too.

His statement was right. But he took it raw, without deeper understanding. So by saying that, he wanted to show that he's on the right path, while he's actually very very far from truth.

He didn't understand anything about smoke. All he needed only an answer to give to people who criticized him.

Love Wisdom Truth
23-01-2012, 06:27 AM
Hi Love Wisdom Truth,

I have a friend who smoke. He told me that as a passive smoker I have more risk to have lung cancer than him. So he suggested me to smoke too.

His statement was right. But he took it raw, without deeper understanding. So by saying that, he wanted to show that he's on the right path, while he's actually very very far from truth.

He didn't understand anything about smoke. All he needed only an answer to give to people who criticized him.


Most merchants praise their goods as the best (Why do they do it?). How many of them can say the things as they are?

It is easy to deal with honest people, who can take the facts even if they speak against them. Dealing with the rest is basically a waste of time and energy.

May good things happen to you.

-«harismo-
25-01-2012, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by:- Love Wisdom Truth

People can fall in love with anything, even with things that are harmful to them or to others for personal pleasure.

God's commandment is: " Do to others as you would have them do to you."
I don't like to engage in this kind of discussions about Islam, but Muslim women need any support they can get.
The marriage of the 9 year old Aisha to Mohammad was agreed between her father and Mohammad when she was 6 year old. It was their decision, God had no part in it.
It is sad that even in the 21st century there are people who believe it is a God given right they can marry their under-aged daughters to any man even 40 years older than their daughters. I personally know Afghan man who's sister had been given into marriage to a man almost 40 years older than her. He told me she hates her husband, but has no choice, but stay with him. Imagine growing up in such a family with no love between the parents?

You continue to amaze me...

To begin with I will address a couple of things with you for clarification.

Just as many revelations were bestowed upon many of the prophets it was also revealed to the Prophet Muhammad that he should marry Aisha. Angel Gabriel came to him in a dream and told him that this will be your wife. However, at that point in time she was too young so he didn't pursue the matter. I've read 3 different books that have provided me with 3 different ages for Aisha starting from 9 - 16 so in reality we don't know her age. Regardless, the Quran itself doesn't promote marrying "9 year old girls" as you continue to state. In fact Muhammad fought for justice in regards to women's rights and it even says so in the Quran. A man can marry up to 4 women as long as he doesn't do it to satisfy his sexual urges and has a noble reason to do so. He has to treat them equally as well as love them equally.

Hence, if you take the time to study Muhammad's life you will see that majority of the women he married were in fact widow's. Even his first wife was almost 15 years older than him and a widow. Again many people will contort facts to justify their warped ideas and slander a many during the process. Do Muslims commit atrocities?! Of course they do but their are many people in other faiths that do the same so for you to focus on something so insignificant and make a huge deal about it without any credible knowledge just highlights for me and everyone here how much you have overlooked the beauty of Islam and it's teachings. I can sit here and preach that Jewish Rabbi's are sickos because they have sex with 6 year old girls because it says so in the Torah but it doesn't mean that ALL Rabbi's are like that. What about the priests that molest boys?!. You cannot condemn an entire faith based on the ill actions of a few. Use your common sense for it will aid you in life.

Love Wisdom Truth
26-01-2012, 05:09 AM
.... A man can marry up to 4 women as long as he doesn't do it to satisfy his sexual urges and has a noble reason to do so. He has to treat them equally as well as love them equally.

Hence, if you take the time to study Muhammad's life you will see that majority of the women he married were in fact widow's. Even his first wife was almost 15 years older than him and a widow. .....


Polygamy shows that people are on the wrong path. There is a masculine and feminine principle in nature. Both go hand by hand and when the balance (which is important to have harmony), gets broken things are not good, and all kind of bad things start to show up.
Don't you think that since God created Adam and Eve - one man one woman it should stay that way? (Not one man and a few women for him.)
I am sorry if those facts offended you, that was not my intention. I am just openly sharing my beliefs.

Also, why should only, and only your prophet be right? Why don't you want to accept that there could be other prophets speaking the word of God as well? If God spoke hundreds and thousands of years ago to prophets, why He should no longer speak through other prophets or people now?

ryeu
26-01-2012, 09:19 AM
Polygamy is not created by Islam. It is men's nature from the very first time. When Al Qur'an came, a man could have unlimited numbers of wives. If then Al Qur'an limits the number to 4 (with requirements), is it a promotion for polygamy? If a man can not fulfill the requirements, Al Qur'an gives a solution, "marry only one".

Love Wisdom Truth
26-01-2012, 03:39 PM
Polygamy is not created by Islam. It is men's nature from the very first time. When Al Qur'an came, a man could have unlimited numbers of wives. If then Al Qur'an limits the number to 4 (with requirements), is it a promotion for polygamy? If a man can not fulfill the requirements, Al Qur'an gives a solution, "marry only one".

Can I speak out my mind without offending you? If not please accept my apologies. If yes my opinion is: Polygamy is a man's invention, which comes our from the men's selfish interests to satisfy their lower sexual desires. It distorts the harmony in the society.

-«harismo-
27-01-2012, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by: - Love Wisdom Truth

Polygamy shows that people are on the wrong path. There is a masculine and feminine principle in nature. Both go hand by hand and when the balance (which is important to have harmony), gets broken things are not good, and all kind of bad things start to show up.
Don't you think that since God created Adam and Eve - one man one woman it should stay that way? (Not one man and a few women for him.)
I am sorry if those facts offended you, that was not my intention. I am just openly sharing my beliefs.

Also, why should only, and only your prophet be right? Why don't you want to accept that there could be other prophets speaking the word of God as well? If God spoke hundreds and thousands of years ago to prophets, why He should no longer speak through other prophets or people now?

You're wrong yet again. How can you have a user-name like that and spew non-sense?! In addition, I don't find you offensive at all because I don't engage my ego in discussions like this and relay only facts via logic. So please don't try to make assumptions about what I'm thinking. On top of that you continue to jump from topic to topic. First it was Islam is this, than that, than this and now you end up on polygamy. I thoroughly and completely answered all of your questions and then you throw this out. Make up your mind.

Islam doesn't promote polygamy. The reason it's even brought up in the Quran is because during the time of Jahiliyah (ignorance) & Quraysh...women were treated as property, sold into slavery, and overall had very little rights. In addition, due to the many wars that MEN fought in order to save & defend their tribes many of them also lost their lives hence, leaving behind their wives and children. Considering that Prophet Muhammad was an orphan himself he had a great affinity for kids especially the orphaned ones. (Not in a sexual molesting kind of way that you might be thinking about but a genuine loving and caring way.) Muhammad was a great humanitarian as well so when he saw all the widows left behind with their children he wanted to make sure they were taken care of.

So why would HE want to take care of all the widows and their children!? Because he knew that women couldn't just go out their and look for a job nor had the rights to do so like in so many countries. So in order to provide for all of them and take care of them justly he married them and took care of them. Treated all of them with great respect and reverence. Again I would like to remind you that in Islam the only reason a man should have multiple wives is if he is doing so for a noble & just reason not to satisfy his sexual urges & desires.

I never mentioned that Muhammad was the only one who was revealed the word of God...I never mentioned that anywhere that he is the only prophet. The word of God has been revealed to many others before him, Jesus, Moses etc. In addition, Islam acknowledges many of the other prophets as well and repeatedly the Christians and Jews are regarded as "people of the book". So you are wrong again.

Gem
27-01-2012, 06:54 AM
Can I speak out my mind without offending you? If not please accept my apologies. If yes my opinion is: Polygamy is a man's invention, which comes our from the men's selfish interests to satisfy their lower sexual desires. It distorts the harmony in the society.

Polygamous societies aren't more peaceful than monogomous ones though.

Toolite
29-01-2012, 01:53 AM
Truth is only as good as the interpretor thats why its good to seek knowledge for yourself from God.

All The Glory Belongs To God Forever!

candyfloss28
07-02-2012, 12:09 PM
God does not care what religion a person is, all her cares about is how you behave.
Now that is the truth.

Love Wisdom Truth
15-02-2012, 06:09 PM
My belief is parents have no right to make agreements or contracts for marriage regarding their children with anyone. Doing so violates their freedoms. Giving others freedom as you would like for yourself is the right way of thinking.

My belief is prophets don't need to marry. Prophets, saints and others who are devoted to serving God, have no need of wives or husbands. Marriage is for us the ordinary people, and even some of us should not marry if we are not ready.

Chrysaetos
15-02-2012, 06:50 PM
Monogamy makes the most sense in human species. The average size difference between males and females in humans is nowhere near that observed in polygynous species.
Humans also have feelings of romanticism and jealousy, which help promote and preserve the bonding.

Akaalis
27-03-2012, 05:22 AM
The problem I personally find with religion is not the religion itself, but with some of its followers, not just the followers of Islam but Christianity as well. First off religion was made by "Human Beings", it may have been inspired by the "Divine" but ultimately it was nevertheless constructed and created by human beings themselves. Human beings are not perfect to begin with and for the most part do not possess the highest nor complete insight into the Cosmos or of the Divine. So to say that one's religion(which was created by humans whom are imperfect to begin with) as the "Absolute Truth" over all other views is a fallacy, not only is it a fallacy but it is also a boastful and a zealous mentality. Such a mentality is off course adopted out of pride for ones religion, however this mentality only ends up turning people off and making people unattracted to your religion, so consequently you are only doing more damage for your religion than you are doing good.

The 2nd point I realized is that in todays day and age, actual spiritual wisdom and knowledge are no longer synonymous with "religious devotion". I know many friends from both Christianity and Islam whom are deeply religious and were immersed in the values of their religion since they were young. However when it comes to having 1st hand insight and knowledge into things such as the meaning of human life, knowing high-level cosmic principles and the mysteries of Heaven and the existence of the Universe, I find that their minds are somewhat blank on these things and then will robotically pull random quotes from the books of their religion and just repeat them because they themselves haven't do not have any 1st hand understanding of their own(outside of their religion).

I am sure that each and every religion has some valid cosmic truth in it and that Prophets such as Jesus, Abraham and Muhammad may have said some wise words(containing much inner wisdom) which were recorded in scriptures that were later compiled into the Testaments, but have any of those prophets ever been sat down and fully interviewed for their FULL knowledge of God, Heaven and the Cosmos?.....no. Not only did they not tell everything they knew regarding their own knowledge of "High-Level Secrets" and Heavenly-Matters, but whatever handful of quotes or passages they left to the inscribers to record are read from books, which means all that any modern day religious follower learns(at best) is only 2nd hand information, information that was recorded and printed down. So no religious follower today possess the mind-state, realm of thinking, enlightenment and the 1st hand heightened spiritual awareness into the Divine which any(or all) of those prophets had REGARDLESS of how long they been practicing and studying their religion.

As said before, I am sure that each and every religion has a piece of the puzzle when it comes to the Mysteries of Life and The Universe, but to take that piece and claim you have filled in the entire puzzle(and that you yourself know everything) only limits and tightens the boundaries of your own thinking. It is an overestimation of your own ability and knowledge placed above that of others, and will thus only jade and cloud ones own perspective without even realizing it. A fatal mistake and the worst disservice to oneself.

People need to look inside, examine themselves and reconsider their own thinking, perspective and viewpoint. If you are unwilling to then that only shows that you simply wish to be and remain ignorant to the wisdom of others, which may even greatly exceed that of your own....

Mathew James
31-03-2012, 02:55 PM
... However when it comes to having 1st hand insight and knowledge into things such as the meaning of human life, knowing high-level cosmic principles and the mysteries of Heaven and the existence of the Universe....

many people around the world, in many different cultures see the hadiths as satisfying your above comment, it may just come down to how open is someones mind to new ideas

mj

hasbean
31-03-2012, 06:48 PM
many people around the world, in many different cultures see the hadiths as satisfying your above comment, it may just come down to how open is someones mind to new ideas

mj

Absolutely. I see no reason why we should have a loyalty to a particular culture or religion. We should have loyalty to the search for Truth and simply go to where we find the most truth. IMO there is truth in just about every religion, but the problem is when we get jaded and stop seeking new truthes. Then we just get intrenched in the traditions of our religion instead of questioning whether we may find more answers elsewhere.