Using ouija board alone

[madcat]

Hello,
I've been wanting to use a ouija board, i looked up how to use it safely but i have a few questions on how to use it alone:
-Do i close my eyes when the indicator moves under my fingers? (my mom said i should)
-do i place fingers of both hands on the indicator for it to work?

Thanks for your help and kindness

Also, if you don't beleive in ouija boards or think they're evil, please keep that to yourself. I am convinced that they work and that they can' be used for genuinly good purposes :)

-M

[Bodhi_Spirit]

Hello,
I've been wanting to use a ouija board, i looked up how to use it safely but i have a few questions on how to use it alone:
-Do i close my eyes when the indicator moves under my fingers? (my mom said i should)
-do i place fingers of both hands on the indicator for it to work?

Thanks for your help and kindness

Also, if you don't beleive in ouija boards or think they're evil, please keep that to yourself. I am convinced that they work and that they can' be used for genuinly good purposes :)

-M

I know you said to keep opinions against the use of ouija boards to yourself, but I'd like to offer a little advice if you don't mind. If it does not resonate with you then just ignore my statement.

Ouija boards or witch boards act as a portal to the spirit world. The board itself is not evil. However the board offers very little in the lines of a filter. It is very different from a medium who uses guides and gate keepers to keep out the nasty lower vibrating entities. It can be rather troublesome as once a portal is opened it can sometimes be difficult to close.

Any protection you would use to keep the bad out would need to be practiced on a regular basis several times a day in order to have the most power behind it. If you're a novice at psychic protection, divination, or magick work I would strongly advise against using such methods to communicate with spirits.

I'd would instead suggest starting with a regular breath meditation, learning and practicing psychic protection/defense, practicing visualization, and learning about spiritual laws such as intention. After that if you still have the desire to play with a ouija board/portal do as you please. At least then you would have more of an ability to protect yourself.

[spiritspark8]

Ouija boards connect with the lower astral. It is not advisable to use them. Crazy things can happen with them. I really recommend using something like tarot or astrology instead.

[Jenny Crow]

I know you said to keep opinions against the use of ouija boards to yourself, but I'd like to offer a little advice if you don't mind. If it does not resonate with you then just ignore my statement.

Ouija boards or witch boards act as a portal to the spirit world. The board itself is not evil. However the board offers very little in the lines of a filter. It is very different from a medium who uses guides and gate keepers to keep out the nasty lower vibrating entities. It can be rather troublesome as once a portal is opened it can sometimes be difficult to close.

Any protection you would use to keep the bad out would need to be practiced on a regular basis several times a day in order to have the most power behind it. If you're a novice at psychic protection, divination, or magick work I would strongly advise against using such methods to communicate with spirits.

I'd instead suggest starting with a regular breath meditation, learning and practicing psychic protection/defense, practicing visualization and learning about spiritual laws such as intention. After that if you still have the desire to play with a ouija board/portal do as you please. At least then you would have more of an ability to protect yourself.

I couldn't have said it better!!

[madcat]

Fair enough Bodhi_Spirit, i admit i should probably learn more before using it. Thanks for the help

[Albalida]

Using the ouija board alone sounds unweildly to me. To my understanding, it takes a lot of energy to move something, and that's easier to bear when you're in a group. Then there's the question of which hand to use, or where to go if your fingers start pushing the planchette in different directions, and what to with your elbows? Also, who writes it down while you're in a trance state? If you close your eyes then you might miss a letter. If you keep your eyes open then you might just be looking at the letters and letting your subconscious speak.

For all of the above reasons, I'd just go for automatic writing.

[madcat]

Automatic writting.. the french writters of the early 20th century used this whilst taking drugs to get access to their subconscious. I tried it once but i felt like i was just reading (excuse my french) **** like
"i dont know what im doing.. ill just find sompething to write down.. blablabla"

Does it really work?

[Mazulu]

If you're going to use a Ouji board, then you should get a video cam and record yourself doing it. Leave a note for the entity that takes control of your body to please post the video on Youtube.

[madcat]

Mazulu: If i do use it, i will and i'll post on this forum the link, thanks :)

[Bodhi_Spirit]

Fair enough Bodhi_Spirit, i admit i should probably learn more before using it. Thanks for the help

I responded to your post madcat not to frighten you but to hopefully offer some guidance in the correct direction. When I was your age I myself played with a ouija board and it honestly caused nothing but problems for me. It wasn't until years later that I realized what I had truly done and had a better understanding. Opening up to the spirit world be it by using a ouiji board, automatic writing, or anything else for that matter is best done with proper guidance and knowledge. Not every spirit out there has your best interest in mind just as not every living person does.

I still suggest meditation and following some sort of spiritual path. Over time you will have your ownspiritual experiences and will have no need for the use of such things as a ouiji board or automatic writing.

[Mazulu]

Mazulu: If i do use it, i will and i'll post on this forum the link, thanks :)
I'm sorry if I was being flippant. I thought a little humor might help. :D

[madcat]

I appreciate and agree with your point of view Bodhi_Spirit and i realize that you weren't trying to scare me off

Thanks for your help and time, i'll keep posting on my expieriences.
The ouija board has less and less appeal to me, i think i'll orient myself more to meditating, channeling, etc.

[Bodhi_Spirit]

I appreciate and agree with your point of view Bodhi_Spirit and i realize that you weren't trying to scare me off

Thanks for your help and time, i'll keep posting on my expieriences.
The ouija board has less and less appeal to me, i think i'll orient myself more to meditating, channeling, etc.

I hope you have some wonderful experiences during your journey madcat. Read on the subjects you're interested in and gain the knowledge needed to have a safe experience. Experiences where you meet your truly good spirit guides and Angels of Gods light. Not entities that hang around in the darker spaces of the spirit world. I always say it's better not to go walking through the dog park at night without shoes. May you be blessed with love and light.

[Albalida]

Automatic writting.. the french writters of the early 20th century used this whilst taking drugs to get access to their subconscious. I tried it once but i felt like i was just reading (excuse my french) **** like
"i dont know what im doing.. ill just find sompething to write down.. blablabla"

Does it really work?

Ehh, yes... about as well as you described.

For me with the ouija board it was (excuse my french) **** like XYL(yes)BORM9PQNPNPN so... I guess it really depends on the person. In that case, using the ouija board alone could work for you, but I wouldn't be able to tell you how.

Although I do like using agate slices with protective earth fairies in them, instead of just a plain ol' planchette. If it's polished then it slides as well as if it had planchette wheels. :smile:

The ouija board has less and less appeal to me, i think i'll orient myself more to meditating, channeling, etc.

Pathworking meditations with the tarot, tend to bring about quite profound experiences for me.

[Angelstar]

l my self would never use one as it can open a gateway to unwanted spirits that can mimic a loved one.If you do use one l would look with depth into is uses.

[psychoslice]

If you believe in evil spirits then using a board could be bad, if you don't then it probobly wont matter, you attract to you what you believe.

[vision]

Madcat,
I agree with all the above warnings but no one can stop you from playing
with fire. Maybe that's the only way you'll "get it"... unfortunately.

[Jenny Crow]

If you're going to use a Ouji board, then you should get a video cam and record yourself doing it. Leave a note for the entity that takes control of your body to please post the video on Youtube.

Is that a joke??:confused:

[madcat]

Albalida, thanks for the help, you're point of view is interesting,
Mazulu , i will put a video if i actually do it

[lenvdb64]

As I previously stated on another post, I would be very careful of using Ouiji Board. Normally the entities that come through are lower level entities (from the Lower Astral planes I mean) that cannot be trusted.

Rather develop your skills in Tarot or Skrying. Or work with the Pendulum.

[madcat]

Thanks for the advice Albida, especially with the agate slice :)

[Albalida]

Anytime, no worries. :) Although be aware that I mean the sort of slice of agate that's clear crystal in the middle, or else you wouldn't be able to read through it.

A geode slice should work, too, so it's just like an agate slice but it has a spiky-shaped hole in the middle for you to be able to read through... but I haven't tried it with that.

[ConradM]

I have a Ouija Board tried to use it once didn't work and then I researched them more. Stay away from them if you are not well experienced.

[Mazulu]

Then again, I don't see anybody telling you not to use a Ouija board based on their bad experiences. Why don't you try it and see what happens. Be the adventurer.

[Albalida]

Then again, I don't see anybody telling you not to use a Ouija board based on their bad experiences.

I agree with this. No offense to people giving those warnings, but if there's no substance to it that you can offer then the warning is not worthy of consideration. :dontknow:

[spiritspark8]

I agree with this. No offense to people giving those warnings, but if there's no substance to it that you can offer then the warning is not worthy of consideration. :dontknow:


Well when I was about eleven I used the ouija board with a friend. We homemade the board and it worked. We would spin the jar (we used for the oracle) and the jar kept spinning, over and over, and would not stop. I had barbie dolls and they were moving around in the room, getting their clothes taken off. I would feel hot and cold spots in the room. And the ouija was talking about having sex with my friend. So per my experience, and what I have learned over many years, ouija connects to the lower astral, and you dont want to consult with spirits of the lower astral. They are bad news. They lie, and can do scary things. I dont advise it. I did my first exorcism when I was eleven when I got rid of the board. There is tarot, astrology, pendulums, so many other ways to 'connect' and you can connect to higher and more clean, realms.

Its playing with fire to play with an ouija board. I understand you not wanting to hear from folks with no experience. I can understand that. But my experience, I know the feeling I got using it, and bringing the spirits 'here.' Not pleasant, and nothing to mess with.

[Tobi]

spiritspark is right. here is some bad stuff in the lower astral. And only lower astral spirits are going to come calling when a ouija board is used. The spirits "higher" than this are likely to communicate via the Heart and fine emotions, and telepathy/dreams etc.

And I did actually know someone who was almost driven crazy by a spirit contacted via the ouija board. And she was a very balanced, kind, and decent person who was preyed upon terribly by a Soul who was stuck on the lower astral.

[Jenny Crow]

I agree with this. No offense to people giving those warnings, but if there's no substance to it that you can offer then the warning is not worthy of consideration. :dontknow:

There were five of us using a ouija board one night and everything was going fine (my mother had come through, my friend's uncle had come through, etc). Suddenly there was a loud knocking at the door (which we all physically heard) of the room we were in, then we all knew someone came into the room and stood at my left shoulder. The look of horror on my friend's face was something I'll never forget, we all knew that something had gone terribly wrong. I could feel and 'see' the uniform of the spirit. He was tall and good looking but was not nice in any way. I suddenly felt sick and thought I was going to throw up so I quickly left the room, when I got to the kitchen I sat down for a minute then in a few minutes two more of my friends had to leave, one because of anger and another because of abject fear. That left my two daughters alone in the room with this spirit. He made it very clear through the board that he had come for my youngest daughter - he had been waiting for her for a very long time - there was a connection between them from a past life at which time they were friends but things had turned nasty between them. My daughter, who was male in that past life had murdered this man and now he was here to 'take her with him'. I went back to the room and eventually so did the others and the room was thick, heavy and cold with a sickening feeling to it. We ended everything but the spirit did not leave.

I called a friend who was a British Traditional Witchcraft high priestess (who had been my teacher many years previously) and the next night we performed a ritual to banish this presence. But it turned out he wasn't going to be banished, he was determined to take my youngest daughter over to the other side so my friend had to go into the astral to converse with him and eventually she got him to leave and let my daughter alone to live out her life.

You can believe this story - or not - but I lived through it and I do not lie. My daughter's life was in danger. As has been said over and over in these posts - the ouija opens a portal to the other side and very often, beings from the lower astral planes find their way through this portal. If you're not experienced enough to deal with lower astral nasties then you'd be very wise not to play around with a ouija board.

I know there are people who have had lovely experiences with the ouija and that is great when all goes well but there is always that chance that sometime or another it can all go wrong.

Jenny Crow

[Mazulu]

Well when I was about eleven I used the ouija board with a friend. We homemade the board and it worked. We would spin the jar (we used for the oracle) and the jar kept spinning, over and over, and would not stop. I had barbie dolls and they were moving around in the room, getting their clothes taken off. I would feel hot and cold spots in the room. And the ouija was talking about having sex with my friend.

That's when you slap the other person using the Ouija board and you call them a pervert.

[Albalida]

Its playing with fire to play with an ouija board. I understand you not wanting to hear from folks with no experience. I can understand that. But my experience, I know the feeling I got using it, and bringing the spirits 'here.' Not pleasant, and nothing to mess with.

Now we're talking! :smile:

...Now let's start discussing.



spiritspark is right. here is some bad stuff in the lower astral. And only lower astral spirits are going to come calling when a ouija board is used.

The spirits "higher" than this are likely to communicate via the Heart and fine emotions, and telepathy/dreams etc.
There is tarot, astrology, pendulums, so many other ways to 'connect' and you can connect to higher and more clean, realms.

What's so bad about the written language, then? Or is it the mindset of inviting just anything to literally spell something out to you, that is so low?

There must be something behind it. While pragmatism would just look at the statistics and experiences and say, "Better just... not..." I'd be interested to know how it works, and why it works so badly.

I've had wonderful experiences with the tarot, for example, although I've heard just as many stories about "cursed decks" as portally ouija boards. As for communicating via the heart and emotions... isn't that called possession?

Reasonably, the ouija board is allowing a buffer between yourself. It should be safer than automatic writing because you're focusing on the movement rather than inviting something to manipulate your mind (and give you something to write out by hand) -- but apparently that's not the case.

I know there are people who have had lovely experiences with the ouija and that is great when all goes well but there is always that chance that sometime or another it can all go wrong.

Until we understand why the ouija board specifically would be a portal, then anything can go wrong with anything that we do: meditation can be a portal (http://www.erinpavlina.com/blog/2006/01/the-ghost-in-the-hall/), gemstone grids can be a portal (http://duskenpath.blogspot.com/2012/06/care-feeding-of-crystal-grids.html), tarot can invite bad spirits... Is it the wood? Is it the paint? Is the Latin alphabet of the exact geometry to resonate with the lower astral? Did the original marketers of the ouija board as a toy, make some pact or treaty with demonic entities that will last for generations, regardless of the brand, or if you work the wood yourself and paint the letters yourself in the witness of all your angels and spirit guides?

[IsleWalker]

Mazulu: If i do use it, i will and i'll post on this forum the link, thanks :)

I think he's kidding, madcat. He wants the entity taking over your body to post the video! Funny.:glasses1:

Lora

[Jenny Crow]

Now we're talking! :smile:

...Now let's start discussing
What's so bad about the written language, then? Or is it the mindset of inviting just anything to literally spell something out to you, that is so low?

There must be something behind it. While pragmatism would just look at the statistics and experiences and say, "Better just... not..." I'd be interested to know how it works, and why it works so badly.

I've had wonderful experiences with the tarot, for example, although I've heard just as many stories about "cursed decks" as portally ouija boards. As for communicating via the heart and emotions... isn't that called possession?

Reasonably, the ouija board is allowing a buffer between yourself. It should be safer than automatic writing because you're focusing on the movement rather than inviting something to manipulate your mind (and give you something to write out by hand) -- but apparently that's not the case.

Until we understand why the ouija board specifically would be a portal, then anything can go wrong with anything that we do: meditation can be a portal (http://www.erinpavlina.com/blog/2006/01/the-ghost-in-the-hall/), gemstone grids can be a portal (http://duskenpath.blogspot.com/2012/06/care-feeding-of-crystal-grids.html), tarot can invite bad spirits... Is it the wood? Is it the paint? Is the Latin alphabet of the exact geometry to resonate with the lower astral? Did the original marketers of the ouija board as a toy, make some pact or treaty with demonic entities that will last for generations, regardless of the brand, or if you work the wood yourself and paint the letters yourself in the witness of all your angels and spirit guides?

What's so bad about the written language - there's nothing bad about the written language, lol. Spelling out the message is simply the way in which the board is set up to work.

You said you'd be interested to know how it really works - most people believe that it's a form of channelling. It doesn't always work so badly but it can. If the person (or people) using the board don't immediately recognize that a negative spirit/entity is communicating with them, and if they're not knowledgeable enough to dismiss that spirit/entity and close the board immediately then that's when things go wrong.

Tarot is a different modality from the ouija board although it can be a springboard for many into clairvoyance, etc.

As for communicating via the heart and the emotions - no that is not possession. Possession is when a discarnate entity takes control of the body of a person.

The ouija board is basically the opposite of being a buffer - what it does is create a psychic link with the 'otherworld'. Actually, it's quite similar to automatic writing.

The ouija is just an instrument, a tool, that helps the user(s) to open themselves to the spirit world. You don't need the game from Hasbro, you can write out the letters and numbers on bits of paper and use an upturned glass and it works the same - and it works easier if one or more of the 'players' have mediumistic tendencies, whether they know it or not. The original marketers of the so called toy did not invent anything new, this type of channelling has been around since the early Greek times. The boards were invented around the late 1800's and a man named Fuld had the patent for a long time then after his death the family sold the patent to Parker Bros. and then Hasbro took over.

[Albalida]

Thanks for your thoughts, Jenny. :)

What's so bad about the written language - there's nothing bad about the written language, lol. Spelling out the message is simply the way in which the board is set up to work.

Ah, but that compared with...

Tarot is a different modality from the ouija board although it can be a springboard for many into clairvoyance, etc.

I get the impression somehow that Tarot is more popularly a springboard into "higher" knowledge such as clairvoyance, rather than communication with demonic entities, because Tarot relies more on symbols and images than words.

If you draw The Devil card from the major arcana, for example, you can wonder, "Is this referring to my own habit of holding grudges, or the does it refer to the substance abuse habit of somebody near and dear to me?"

Whereas a ouija board spelling out "I AM THE DEVIL" doesn't leave much room for interpretation.

You said you'd be interested to know how it really works - most people believe that it's a form of channelling. It doesn't always work so badly but it can. If the person (or people) using the board don't immediately recognize that a negative spirit/entity is communicating with them, and if they're not knowledgeable enough to dismiss that spirit/entity and close the board immediately then that's when things go wrong.

That bolded part was very useful.

Is it that the ouija board supplies "progress" in advance of "understanding"? Like, meditative channelling goes through many stages of relaxation and visualization. If you get bad vibes or feel uncomfortable at any time, then, I think, your mind will naturally be unfocused on the spiritual task and snap right back. This has the effect of that if or when a spiritualist does meditate specifically to channel and contact someone, then they have honed their instinct and intuition for identifying what they are in contact with.

...Something like that?

So, rather than say, "Don't ever bother", it might be more constructive to say, "Bother with learning to banish, first."

You don't need the game from Hasbro, you can write out the letters and numbers on bits of paper and use an upturned glass and it works the same - and it works easier if one or more of the 'players' have mediumistic tendencies, whether they know it or not.

The original marketers of the so called toy did not invent anything new, this type of channelling has been around since the early Greek times. The boards were invented around the late 1800's and a man named Fuld had the patent for a long time then after his death the family sold the patent to Parker Bros. and then Hasbro took over.

What makes it a channeling board, though? The same action, without the marketing and early Greek tradition behind it... only the action taken by itself could, for example, be used to teach a young child the alphabet.

Is it the mindset that turns an otherwise ordinary toy alphabet board into a bridge to the other world?

[Jenny Crow]

Thanks for your thoughts, Jenny. :)


Is it the mindset that turns an otherwise ordinary toy alphabet board into a bridge to the other world?


THAT'S a good question!...............It could be.....probably is..........People gather around the board anticipating communicating with spirits from the otherworld and open themselves up, quite often forgetting or not realizing that protection is important.

[William]

Hello,
I've been wanting to use a ouija board, i looked up how to use it safely but i have a few questions on how to use it alone:
-Do i close my eyes when the indicator moves under my fingers? (my mom said i should)
-do i place fingers of both hands on the indicator for it to work?

Thanks for your help and kindness

Also, if you don't beleive in ouija boards or think they're evil, please keep that to yourself. I am convinced that they work and that they can' be used for genuinly good purposes :)

-M

Hi all.
I have read the thread and find the responses interesting

I have been studying the ideomotor effect for many years now and have developed speculation as to what is happening which I will share.


I can say that if you want to use this method (Ouija) MadCat do so in a scientific manner and you wont be disappointed.

I will share more on my own experiences with this method of communication in a couple of days

Cheers

William

[Jenny Crow]

Ah, yes, unconscious motions!

[Mazulu]

Even if you have a good spirit who is trying to communicate through the Ouija board, it takes at least two physically alive people to move the pointer. You never really know if the other person is sincerely trying to communicate with a spirit or if the other person is an insincere prankster who wants to play a prank at your expense. In the regard, Ouija boards are a bad form of divination.

[William]

Ah, yes, unconscious motions!

Subconscious motions. :smile:

[William]

It takes at least two physically alive people to move the pointer.

This has not been the case in my experience. The ideomotor effect works just as well, and perhaps more effectively with one individual.

[William]

If you keep your eyes open then you might just be looking at the letters and letting your subconscious speak.


From a purely scientific stance, as far as I am aware, ideomotor effect has been linked with unconscious interaction, and the 'unconscious' part has to do with the individual(s) not being conscious that this is what is occurring and consigning other reasons for why the effect works, such as 'spirits of the dead'.

Skeptics also agree with this stance of opinion, in regard to the effect (why the pointer moves and spells out messages.)

This opinion has some validity.

What seems to being said by scientific analysis is that the individual is not aware (is unconscious to the fact) that they are essentially messaging themselves based on personal expectation and bias.

However through my own studies I have found that the messaging has often been deeper in content than my consciousness has ever thought about (if that makes sense) which is exactly WHY there is a tendency to believe that what comes through in the form of communicated message is often assigned to some higher consciousness outside ones own focus of self awareness/identity.

Through ideomotor interactions over a long period of time, I was eventually informed that I was really talking with an aspect of myself which played the parts of all the various characters with whom I communed with and in many cases became friends with or close to on an emotional level.

The reason the 'parts' had been played had to do with my own belief systems which this 'deeper' aspect of my self worked with (because that is all it had to work with at the time) until a point in the relationship had been reached where this truer information could be given without the risk of the relationship ending.

Be that as it may, the various characters I interacted with through the process were quite beneficial for me, holistically speaking.
But there still came a time when such things needed to be laid to rest in order for the communications process to 'level up' for want of a better term.

So - in keeping with science, the only conclusion I can make (so far) is that the interaction has to do with Consciousness and Subconsciousness.

What Science understands as the Subconsciousness is mostly that it is not 'conscious' at all, due to the processes scientists use in relation to studying subconsciousness and as far as I am aware, no science is investigating the possibility that the Subconscious is actually Conscious.

The explanation from many who believe in...paranormal/supernatural...tend to claim that communication is happening because of an outside factor (invisible consciousnesses) and this is something which cannot be proven scientifically at present time, so cannot be verified as factual.

In keeping with science/physical evidence and measurement then, my own speculation about what is occurring is that when I am communing through ideomotor effect, with the aspect of my self which is rather more knowledgeable than I consciously am, this aspect most likely is the Subconsciousness and while Subconsciousness is still rather a mystery to science, there is - to the best of mu knowledge so far - no evidence to say that I am incorrect in my speculation so far.

[Mazulu]

Science often overstates its case. Skeptics ignore the presence of spirit phenomena by playing dumb when invisible phenomena is occurring. The most famous example is particle wave duality. When two or more slits are open, photons will obey their wave nature by landing with an interference pattern. Their wave nature is spirit. The waves are an invisible phenomena that every photon is obligated to obey. These are waves of spirit.

Skeptics and physicists will make up some absurd explanation like "the photon interferes with itself". But the truth is: spirit phenomena exists. The scientific community calls it: "virtual particles", "the quantum vacuum" and "wave-functions". The real problem is that physics is all about predicting nature; but spirit is all about free will. Those two visions are diametrically opposed (and perhaps even balanced). Quantum noise allows spirit (spirits) to influence the physical universe and exert their freewill.

Your spirit (soul) is integrated into the atoms of your body some time before birth. This allows your spirit to control your nervous system and command your body to move your limbs, speak and think. When a disembodied spirit comes along, it has a chance to direct the electro-chemical machinery of your nervous system (unless you resist it). The spirit (soul) is the essence of free will. Science mistakes that freewill for quantum noise or quantum randomness.

[William]

Science often overstates its case. Skeptics ignore the presence of spirit phenomena by playing dumb when invisible phenomena is occurring. The most famous example is particle wave duality. When two or more slits are open, photons will obey their wave nature by landing with an interference pattern. Their wave nature is spirit. The waves are an invisible phenomena that every photon is obligated to obey. These are waves of spirit.

Skeptics and physicists will make up some absurd explanation like "the photon interferes with itself". But the truth is: spirit phenomena exists. The scientific community calls it: "virtual particles", "the quantum vacuum" and "wave-functions". The real problem is that physics is all about predicting nature; but spirit is all about free will. Those two visions are diametrically opposed (and perhaps even balanced). Quantum noise allows spirit (spirits) to influence the physical universe and exert their freewill.

Your spirit (soul) is integrated into the atoms of your body some time before birth. This allows your spirit to control your nervous system and command your body to move your limbs, speak and think. When a disembodied spirit comes along, it has a chance to direct the electro-chemical machinery of your nervous system (unless you resist it). The spirit (soul) is the essence of free will. Science mistakes that freewill for quantum noise or quantum randomness.

Hi Mazulu

That is interesting information.
In regard to ideomotor effect science has its theories as does spiritualism.

I think what you are saying here though probably deserves a thread of its own as it is a big subject and might take the focus off this thread topic

Cheers

William

[Mazulu]

You're right.:smile:

[IsleWalker]

Science often overstates its case. Skeptics ignore the presence of spirit phenomena by playing dumb when invisible phenomena is occurring. The most famous example is particle wave duality. When two or more slits are open, photons will obey their wave nature by landing with an interference pattern. Their wave nature is spirit. The waves are an invisible phenomena that every photon is obligated to obey. These are waves of spirit.

Skeptics and physicists will make up some absurd explanation like "the photon interferes with itself". But the truth is: spirit phenomena exists. The scientific community calls it: "virtual particles", "the quantum vacuum" and "wave-functions". The real problem is that physics is all about predicting nature; but spirit is all about free will. Those two visions are diametrically opposed (and perhaps even balanced). Quantum noise allows spirit (spirits) to influence the physical universe and exert their freewill.

Your spirit (soul) is integrated into the atoms of your body some time before birth. This allows your spirit to control your nervous system and command your body to move your limbs, speak and think. When a disembodied spirit comes along, it has a chance to direct the electro-chemical machinery of your nervous system (unless you resist it). The spirit (soul) is the essence of free will. Science mistakes that freewill for quantum noise or quantum randomness.

Hear, hear Mazulu. It all seems so obvious to me. When will science catch up?

Lora

[Tobi]

Now we're talking! :smile:

...Now let's start discussing.






What's so bad about the written language, then? Or is it the mindset of inviting just anything to literally spell something out to you, that is so low?

There must be something behind it. While pragmatism would just look at the statistics and experiences and say, "Better just... not..." I'd be interested to know how it works, and why it works so badly.

I've had wonderful experiences with the tarot, for example, although I've heard just as many stories about "cursed decks" as portally ouija boards. As for communicating via the heart and emotions... isn't that called possession?

Reasonably, the ouija board is allowing a buffer between yourself. It should be safer than automatic writing because you're focusing on the movement rather than inviting something to manipulate your mind (and give you something to write out by hand) -- but apparently that's not the case.



Until we understand why the ouija board specifically would be a portal, then anything can go wrong with anything that we do: meditation can be a portal (http://www.erinpavlina.com/blog/2006/01/the-ghost-in-the-hall/), gemstone grids can be a portal (http://duskenpath.blogspot.com/2012/06/care-feeding-of-crystal-grids.html), tarot can invite bad spirits... Is it the wood? Is it the paint? Is the Latin alphabet of the exact geometry to resonate with the lower astral? Did the original marketers of the ouija board as a toy, make some pact or treaty with demonic entities that will last for generations, regardless of the brand, or if you work the wood yourself and paint the letters yourself in the witness of all your angels and spirit guides?

No there is nothing wrong with the written language, of course not. Or words on a board....after all they are only letters of the alphabet, and it's only a glass or pointer.
But in order to make a Ouija Board "work" from the spirit world, you have to be in the dimension with most 'solidity' which is the lower astral plane. Now Ok -let's not talk "higher" or "lower" because there's really no such thing. There are just different degrees of astral "solidity", and the one which can influence the physical dimension via the Etheric, is known -for want of better words -as the lower astral. And in order to make a Ouija board work (if you are a spirit) you have to be able to use this etheric energy.
Now there can be some very nice things linger for a short time here, or pass through. It's not all "bad" either. I have known some beautiful things here.
But there are Souls which because of their own agendas either do not know how to get out of this place, or do not wish to. Mostly it's don't wish to -for one reason or another. And because of free-will, there's no-one going to be frog-marching them off into the Spirit World proper. They go when they are ready to go.
Some linger because of love and loyalty. In those cases, their lingering isn't for too long, even if they are extremely stubborn, as the very vibrations of love and loyalty will eventually harmonise them with the appropriate astral level where these things are strong. They will "go home."
In those cases there might be a very small window of opportunity to converse with them safely by using a Ouija board....I don't know for certain, having not done that, but there would have to be a lot of discipline, attunement to them, and discernment involved.

But some of those who hang out in this area are so attached to physical sensation of one kind or another, and need energy to remain where they have a good chance of finding what they want -near the physical dimension. It only needs a little imagination to understand what physical sensations they are interested in. All sorts....sex, drugs, and various other things. If they get given a dose of energy, it helps them stick around -and for their own reasons they are loathe to move.
Using a Ouija board is highly likely to connect with that level of astral solidity. Anything dwelling in a finer vibration doesn't usually have the etheric energy to cause movements of a pointer on a board, or peoples' hands. And their vibrations will be picked up by attunement of the inner senses instead. Or "synchronising" with them. Synchronising will cause empathetic contacts, (which are so lovely)and also telepathic contacts (that's why I said these things will be picked up by the Heart and telepathically) We'll be attuned to them and so will have a good chance of "hearing" them if we are willing or able to develop our skills.

Of course there are exceptions I am sure. But if those Beings who hang out in the more solid areas of the astral are the most likely to be encountered with a Ouija board-why risk that?

Using a Ouija board is completely different to many other divination methods.

[William]

Hi Tobi.

The best way to approach ideomotor effect process is to assume that there is no afterlife and all that associated baggage of human mythology which goes along with it.

I cannot say that this is how I approached it myself, but that I learned this from it eventually once my beliefs systems were deconstructed so that I could see this.

I am not suggesting that we abandon the possibility of afterlife but that it need not become the dominating factor propelling our actions.

The facts are that irregardless of what we think is going on after ‘life’ in this physical universe, none of it can be scientifically proven, and a lot of it is speculation which has transformed into truth for the individual who then finds like-minded individuals in which to join and support and be supported by, upholding their truth and there are any number of these spiritual clusters on this planet who are still fragmented from each other and adding to the general confusion because of this fragmentation.

If ‘Spirit’ exists, and can commune with the individual, then ideomotor effect processes should be able to convey this, and has a better chance of doing so when the barriers are removed and bias replaced with wanting to learn, wanting to discover, wanting to find out.

Even removing ‘Spirit’ from the process, one still has the communications process data to go on, because this does not stop. The only shift in perceptions then is that one is communing with some aspect of oneself which one has not fully appreciated as that relevant.

Some would call this aspect “Subconsciousness” and for want of a more accurate term, that one is as good as any.

That way at least the Science is kept in the process. Remove belief systems and then try it and see what happens.

[aiden hall]

many of the old mediums used many different tools in there methods of communicating with the spirit world. I have studied mediumship going back to the early 1800's and what I am surprised is the many misconceptions around working with spirit. There is far to much superstation, mysticism, religion and the paranormal been placed around working with and about spirit. All this only seemed to appear in late 80's and early 90's. You hear all these "newisms" that have been brought in for example "chakras", If you look at the training methods and the working methods of mediums such as Gordon Higginson, Estelle Roberts, Lesley Flint to name a few they never went through all these procedures that many are taught today. As my Guides have pointed out as long as you work with the right intent there is no reason to worry about anything. They have also made it clear that negativity is created by people. Yes there are mischievous spirit but the lesson is to learn when they around. Four words I use as a guide DISICPLINE, DEDICATION, PERSEVERANCE, COMMITMENT which were given to me by spirit. Chakras are connected to healing and just a personal thing and nothing to do with working as a medium. LETS GET BACK TO THE OLD METHODS OF DEVELOPING. No matter what any one says there is no medium today (including myself) who are on the same level that the mediums of the past were on. They dedicated there lives in the service of spirit.

[aiden hall]

many of the old mediums used many different tools in there methods of communicating with the spirit world. I have studied mediumship going back to the early 1800's and what I am surprised is the many misconceptions around working with spirit. There is far to much superstation, mysticism, religion and the paranormal been placed around working with and about spirit. All this only seemed to appear in late 80's and early 90's. You hear all these "newisms" that have been brought in for example "chakras", If you look at the training methods and the working methods of mediums such as Gordon Higginson, Estelle Roberts, Lesley Flint to name a few they never went through all these procedures that many are taught today. As my Guides have pointed out as long as you work with the right intent there is no reason to worry about anything. They have also made it clear that negativity is created by people. Yes there are mischievous spirit but the lesson is to learn when they around. Four words I use as a guide DISICPLINE, DEDICATION, PERSEVERANCE, COMMITMENT which were given to me by spirit. Chakras are connected to healing and just a personal thing and nothing to do with working as a medium. LETS GET BACK TO THE OLD METHODS OF DEVELOPING. No matter what any one says there is no medium today (including myself) who are on the same level that the mediums of the past were on. They dedicated there lives in the service of spirit.

[IsleWalker]

many of the old mediums used many different tools in there methods of communicating with the spirit world. I have studied mediumship going back to the early 1800's and what I am surprised is the many misconceptions around working with spirit. There is far to much superstation, mysticism, religion and the paranormal been placed around working with and about spirit. All this only seemed to appear in late 80's and early 90's. You hear all these "newisms" that have been brought in for example "chakras", If you look at the training methods and the working methods of mediums such as Gordon Higginson, Estelle Roberts, Lesley Flint to name a few they never went through all these procedures that many are taught today. As my Guides have pointed out as long as you work with the right intent there is no reason to worry about anything. They have also made it clear that negativity is created by people. Yes there are mischievous spirit but the lesson is to learn when they around. Four words I use as a guide DISICPLINE, DEDICATION, PERSEVERANCE, COMMITMENT which were given to me by spirit. Chakras are connected to healing and just a personal thing and nothing to do with working as a medium. LETS GET BACK TO THE OLD METHODS OF DEVELOPING. No matter what any one says there is no medium today (including myself) who are on the same level that the mediums of the past were on. They dedicated there lives in the service of spirit.

I agree with your sentiment here. Fear has become norm and disguised as "wise practice" most of the time.

Lora

[Mazulu]

Americans (and perhaps all human beings) are explorers. Why wouldn't they explore beyond the boundary of death in search of health, wealth, happiness and immortality? Why wouldn't they? Particularly with the bizarre and irrational conclusions that we draw from science? Our scientific knowledge is clearly incomplete, particularly when it comes to things like consciousness and the non-physical nature of quantum mechanics.

Go on! Use that Ouija board. Find out what kinds of strange things exist in the spirit world.

[William]

My understanding is that mediums are not integral to connection with invisible consciousness.

Why do individuals seek out mediums in order to connect with the invisible?

One reason would be that they feel inadequate, unsure of themselves, and that other personalities are far wiser and more skilful in interpreting on their behalf ‘what is Spirit and what is Spirit wanting the individual to know.’
The beauty of ideomotor effect is that you don’t need a medium. All you need is to lay aside beliefs and the fear or fascination for things which have been associated with ‘Ouija’ – all that is simply hocus-pocus and some of it was likely invented by mediums over the years in order that people would shun this process in favour of going to a medium to get their advice.

I learned Tarot and Runes – both of which are associated with ideomotor effect. Occasionally I have had individuals ask me to do a reading and I always encourage them to learn the Tarot for themselves because that is what Tarot really is for.

It is always about self responsibility.

You have the ability to learn and all that is required is that you are honest. “Spirit” will teach you what you need to know and how to trust in yourself.

[IsleWalker]

My understanding is that mediums are not integral to connection with invisible consciousness.

Why do individuals seek out mediums in order to connect with the invisible?

One reason would be that they feel inadequate, unsure of themselves, and that other personalities are far wiser and more skilful in interpreting on their behalf ‘what is Spirit and what is Spirit wanting the individual to know.’
The beauty of ideomotor effect is that you don’t need a medium. All you need is to lay aside beliefs and the fear or fascination for things which have been associated with ‘Ouija’ – all that is simply hocus-pocus and some of it was likely invented by mediums over the years in order that people would shun this process in favour of going to a medium to get their advice.

I learned Tarot and Runes – both of which are associated with ideomotor effect. Occasionally I have had individuals ask me to do a reading and I always encourage them to learn the Tarot for themselves because that is what Tarot really is for.

It is always about self responsibility.

You have the ability to learn and all that is required is that you are honest. “Spirit” will teach you what you need to know and how to trust in yourself.
Been hearing you talk about ideomotor this whole time and just looked it up.

Silly, IMO, to rule out the possibility that someone's "inner desires" may affect some spiritual experiment with communication. That's the point.

It's like science feeling that the placebo effect is a bad thing. If we can get the effect without using the medicine, why would you not want that? It's the same thing that you're talking about. Just proving, to me, that we have the capability (a) to heal if we believe we can and (b) to cause things to happen in order for our conscious mind to catch up with the subconscious mind. That's the point--which, I guess, is what you've been saying (?) :icon_eek:

Lora

[William]

Been hearing you talk about ideomotor this whole time and just looked it up.

Silly, IMO, to rule out the possibility that someone's "inner desires" may affect some spiritual experiment with communication. That's the point.

It's like science feeling that the placebo effect is a bad thing. If we can get the effect without using the medicine, why would you not want that? It's the same thing that you're talking about. Just proving, to me, that we have the capability (a) to heal if we believe we can and (b) to cause things to happen in order for our conscious mind to catch up with the subconscious mind. That's the point--which, I guess, is what you've been saying (?)

Lora

Hi Lora

I speak a lot about this on the sceptic forum (JREF) and my argument there is that ideomotor is not recognised as a legitimate tool of scientific research, largely (I think) because of how ‘Ouija’ is traditionally used by what sceptics refer to as ‘woo’.

However, that is still their bias, and bias has the habit of building walls rather than bridges.

The placebo effect was brought into the argument and I said that if the placebo truly worked then this would indicate that ‘the brain’ has more ability than we give it credit for and this angle needs to be studied more as well.

The answer was that Placebo Effect is psychological. It is not healing anything because there is nothing to actually heal.
Do a wiki search on it – there is also the Nocebo Effect which has to do with the harmful effect of placebo.

There has undoubtedly been more study done on placebo than ideomotor.

Indeed, I have been saying that our Conscious self could do with catching up to our Subconscious self.
However these aspects are not considered to be separate entities but rather states, and both are products of the brain alone.

I am happy to go along with this reasoning while offering what I have learned. I understand that the brain is a tool in which Consciousness and Subconsciousness use and can be used in itself as a tool in which the aspects can commune, and this is provable through ideomotor effect, but requires individuals to find out for themselves and cross reference the data with each other to form wider conclusions or at least more informed speculation which might then be used for the purpose of hypothesis.

At the very least, to “get on the same page”.

[IsleWalker]

It is not healing anything because there is nothing to actually heal.
William--

Whoaa--way too much terminology for me--ideomotor, woo (?really), nocebo? Isn't it easier to just say what you mean instead of using the term?

I'm afraid this is like the conversations about science--it becomes never-ending.

I don't agree that there is nothing to heal by placebo effect. There are very real, physical things that have been shown to be healed. We are stuck in these physical bodies and if our conscious/subconscious are not balanced, they can get out of whack.

But I guess it's not worth that much energy to me to speculate about these things. This gets to the belief or non-belief phase. And beliefs are just thoughts you think a lot.

Just kept seeing you talk about the ideomotor idea without defining it. I try to practice KISS.

Lora

[William]

William--

Whoaa--way too much terminology for me--ideomotor, woo (?really), nocebo? Isn't it easier to just say what you mean instead of using the term?

I'm afraid this is like the conversations about science--it becomes never-ending.

I don't agree that there is nothing to heal by placebo effect. There are very real, physical things that have been shown to be healed. We are stuck in these physical bodies and if our conscious/subconscious are not balanced, they can get out of whack.

But I guess it's not worth that much energy to me to speculate about these things. This gets to the belief or non-belief phase. And beliefs are just thoughts you think a lot.

Just kept seeing you talk about the ideomotor idea without defining it. I try to practice KISS.

Lora

Quite alright Lora.

I prefer to use the term ideomotor to distance it from the tainted beliefs and vilification of 'Ouija'

Sometimes being able to examine evidence is the difference between fact and fiction.
As long as fiction does not evolve into belief on account of KIS, there is no problem.

Ideomotor, like placebo and nocebo are measurable effects and honestly defining those effects is science.
With the fact of complexity Science is not always able to keep it simple for those who feel they cannot understand unless the complex is simplified, but often this need not be a barrier to learning and appreciating the things Science has helped Humanity better equip itself with.

It would be S to believe otherwise and self imposed ignorance of course is another thing entirely. If one has the intelligence and chooses not to use that gift, well that would be just plain and simply stupid.

Each to their own as the saying goes.

:)

[Tobi]

Hi Tobi.

The best way to approach ideomotor effect process is to assume that there is no afterlife and all that associated baggage of human mythology which goes along with it.

I cannot say that this is how I approached it myself, but that I learned this from it eventually once my beliefs systems were deconstructed so that I could see this.

I am not suggesting that we abandon the possibility of afterlife but that it need not become the dominating factor propelling our actions.

The facts are that irregardless of what we think is going on after ‘life’ in this physical universe, none of it can be scientifically proven, and a lot of it is speculation which has transformed into truth for the individual who then finds like-minded individuals in which to join and support and be supported by, upholding their truth and there are any number of these spiritual clusters on this planet who are still fragmented from each other and adding to the general confusion because of this fragmentation.

If ‘Spirit’ exists, and can commune with the individual, then ideomotor effect processes should be able to convey this, and has a better chance of doing so when the barriers are removed and bias replaced with wanting to learn, wanting to discover, wanting to find out.

Even removing ‘Spirit’ from the process, one still has the communications process data to go on, because this does not stop. The only shift in perceptions then is that one is communing with some aspect of oneself which one has not fully appreciated as that relevant.

Some would call this aspect “Subconsciousness” and for want of a more accurate term, that one is as good as any.

That way at least the Science is kept in the process. Remove belief systems and then try it and see what happens.

What I know about the next dimension (not enough -I'm afraid, though a little) is not gained from any "belief system" as I have no belief system as such. I simply report from experience as clearly as I can. And my experience has shown me life continues after the physical existence.
But I always was a person who preferred the scientific approach....until I was shown things science rejects or is unwilling or unable to investigate.

[William]

When I said "Remove belief systems and then try it and see what happens." I was specifically focused upon the thread topic.

Using Ouija Boards Alone.

I am defending its use as a tool (ideomotor effect process) for learning through interactive communication and have to - in all good consciousness -defend this because my own experience has shown me that the stigma which has been put on its use by those who either use it immaturely and disrespectfully or those who believe it is only a tool which 'opens gateways for evil to utilize' and advise individuals not to use it simply do not know what they are talking about.

Or rather, have belief systems which propel them to vilify the process outright.

It is far more effective as a communications tool than Tarot, Runes; seeking Mediums, Channelling etc...although some might argue it is a form of channelling, it is no more or less a channelling device that is a telephone.

[Jenny Crow]

When I said "Remove belief systems and then try it and see what happens." I was specifically focused upon the thread topic.

Using Ouija Boards Alone.

I am defending its use as a tool (ideomotor effect process) for learning through interactive communication and have to - in all good consciousness -defend this because my own experience has shown me that the stigma which has been put on its use by those who either use it immaturely and disrespectfully or those who believe it is only a tool which 'opens gateways for evil to utilize' and advise individuals not to use it simply do not know what they are talking about.


Sorry, I just don't think it's right to say that those people don't know what they're talking about. It's great that you have had good experiences with the Ouija board and I respect your findings - but you also have to respect other people's findings and experiences.

Jenny Crow

[Jenny Crow]

It is far more effective as a communications tool than Tarot, Runes; seeking Mediums, Channelling etc...although some might argue it is a form of channelling, it is no more or less a channelling device that is a telephone.

As a communications tool I find the Tarot much more effective and it is only your opinion that it is no more a channeling device than it is a telephone:smile:

Jenny Crow

[William]

As a communications tool I find the Tarot much more effective and it is only your opinion that it is no more a channeling device than it is a telephone:smile:

Jenny Crow

I have used Tarot considerably so have an understanding about both tools and it is simply a fact that one is far more effective than the other.
It is not my opinion so much as a matter of fact - I cannot help that there are belief systems around use of Ouija that people think it is some dark demonic device, or a device to speak with the dead or whatever.
It is merely a communications device, just as the telephone is.

So it might be that what I say about it can be considered opinion but I have personal experience over a long period of time and the science involved has nothing to do with the popular beliefs about the ideomotor effect. Even popular secular science hasn't understood the reason why the pointer moves as anything other than an unconscious reaction.

My own conclusion to date is that it is the Conscious aspect of 'self' interacting with the Subconscious aspect of 'self', which is precisely the same thing as Tarot (provided of course one does their own reading) only the communication process is far more intricate.

That any might think whatever they do about Ouija, must then also be considered 'opinion'.

If you prefer Tarot, good on you, but this thread is not about Tarot nor should it be treated as an opportunity to put the 'spooky' onto Ouija, simply because one believes spooky things about Ouija, as some have expressed in this thread.

[William]

Sorry, I just don't think it's right to say that those people don't know what they're talking about. It's great that you have had good experiences with the Ouija board and I respect your findings - but you also have to respect other people's findings and experiences.

Jenny Crow

I have studied well enough ‘other peoples findings and experiences’ and they are largely to do with fear, fascination, disrespect, immaturity, and erroneous belief systems.
All I have said is “Remove belief systems and then try it and see what happens” that way eliminating the need for Subconsciousness to work around those beliefs and getting to the point more quickly, which is simply communicating without all the dross with that incredibly knowledgeable aspect of the self.

Some call it ‘Higher self’ which is accurate enough, but I tend to like ‘Subconsciousness’ because sometimes the ‘higher self’ is regarded as being outside of the person – like ‘god’ or ‘spirit’ is often regarded and Subconsciousness is always regarded as being ‘within’.

Another thing to consider is that it is not known how other peoples ‘opinions’ might influence the one who wishes to try Ouija, so if I can offer a balancing opinion and state my reasons for doing so, then this should be regarded as acceptable and right for me to say so.

People might well ‘know what they are talking about’ but they do not necessarily understand the full reasons for their less than nice experiences have to do with their own attitudes and beliefs and it is more convenient to blame these on some outside influence (transference) and spread those ideas around to put other off.

If I had believed such rumors I would never had discovered what I have, and be where I am in the now.
Instead, I have an intimate and unshakable relationship and understanding about what I am and do not need to go outside myself, get readings done, channel outside entities of any other thing like that.

That is a rather good thing and why I recommend it.

[Native spirit]

:icon_eek: Everybody will have an opinion on this subject but as a medium using a ouija board is not somethin ,i would advise anyone to do,a ouija board is a tool that should not be used without proper supervision,any body can come through and ive seen what it does to ppl who have used it a party piece.it is not a toy,

Namaste

[Jenny Crow]

William,

Your ego knows no bounds, lol:disgust:

[William]

:icon_eek: Everybody will have an opinion on this subject but as a medium using a ouija board is not somethin ,i would advise anyone to do,a ouija board is a tool that should not be used without proper supervision,any body can come through and ive seen what it does to ppl who have used it a party piece.it is not a toy,

Namaste

If I had believed such rumors I would never had discovered what I have, and be where I am in the now.
Instead, I have an intimate and unshakable relationship and understanding about what I am and do not need to go outside myself, get readings done, channel outside entities of any *other things like that.


*...including 'using mediums'

[William]

William,

Your ego knows no bounds, lol:disgust:

Save you disgust Jenny. That I have an intimate and unshakable relationship and understanding about what I am does not equate to 'ego' and calling people names does not equate to reasonable argument.

[Mazulu]

Save you disgust Jenny. That I have an intimate and unshakable relationship and understanding about what I am does not equate to 'ego' and calling people names does not equate to reasonable argument.
What are you again? I thought you said that have no evidence about what happens when we die, and you are happy with that.

[Juanita]

Hi Tobi.

The best way to approach ideomotor effect process is to assume that there is no afterlife and all that associated baggage of human mythology which goes along with it.

I cannot say that this is how I approached it myself, but that I learned this from it eventually once my beliefs systems were deconstructed so that I could see this.

I am not suggesting that we abandon the possibility of afterlife but that it need not become the dominating factor propelling our actions.

The facts are that irregardless of what we think is going on after ‘life’ in this physical universe, none of it can be scientifically proven, and a lot of it is speculation which has transformed into truth for the individual who then finds like-minded individuals in which to join and support and be supported by, upholding their truth and there are any number of these spiritual clusters on this planet who are still fragmented from each other and adding to the general confusion because of this fragmentation.


If ‘Spirit’ exists, and can commune with the individual, then ideomotor effect processes should be able to convey this, and has a better chance of doing so when the barriers are removed and bias replaced with wanting to learn, wanting to discover, wanting to find out.

Even removing ‘Spirit’ from the process, one still has the communications process data to go on, because this does not stop. The only shift in perceptions then is that one is communing with some aspect of oneself which one has not fully appreciated as that relevant.

Some would call this aspect “Subconsciousness” and for want of a more accurate term, that one is as good as any.

That way at least the Science is kept in the process. Remove belief systems and then try it and see what happens.







This theory of ideomotor effect, also known as the Carpenter effect does not resonate with me at all.....I can understand the phenomena that your muscles may unknowlingly move the planchette, but don't see where that has anything to do with either the consciense or unconsciense mind--or with taroh or runes for that matter... Spirit and the afterlife does exist so taking them out of the equation does not make sense....

[William]

I thought you said that have no evidence about what happens when we die, and you are happy with that.

I said.
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=818600&postcount=57What are you again?

Alive. Human. Love. Truthful. Conscious. Deep and Meaningful. Not Afraid. Curious. Humorous. Sure of my Self. Happy. Knowledgeable on the thread subject.

[Mazulu]

I said.
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=818600&postcount=57
That's what I said. I just said it more concisely.
Alive. Human. Love. Truthful. Conscious. Deep and Meaningful. Not Afraid. Curious. Humorous. Sure of my Self. Happy. Knowledgeable on the thread subject.
If you're not afraid, then you're just playing in the shallow end of the pool. You're not truly adventuring into the real world. You are living in a bubble of safety like a child. Why don't you come explore the endless possibilities of existence, and then you will be afraid, you will be.

[William]

If you're not afraid, then you're just playing in the shallow end of the pool. You're not truly adventuring into the real world. You are living in a bubble of safety like a child. Why don't you come explore the endless possibilities of existence, and then you will be afraid, you will be.


Mazulu

That is interesting information.

I think what you are saying here though probably deserves a thread of its own as it is a big subject and might take the focus off this thread topic

Cheers

<^>

[William]

This theory of ideomotor effect, also known as the Carpenter effect does not resonate with me at all......

Well Juanita, ideomotor effect does cover more than just Ouija, and I like to use the expression because of the connotations associated with the word ‘Ouija’being so negative.

As far as that Scientific study on why things appear to move and the data revealing – normally through blind testing – the evidence is quite convincing and gets no argument from me.
However, I do not think it has been sufficiently studied that the conclusions are necessarily true, but rather that the conclusions show that humans can be tricksters –
They can trick each other and themselves - nothing amazing about that revelation.

I can understand the phenomena that your muscles may unknowlingly move the planchette, but don't see where that has anything to do with either the consciense or unconsciense mind--or with taroh or runes for that matter..

Where it has something to do with consciousness though is obvious in that without consciousness there would be no thing to acknowledge any messaging coming through this form of communication.

Where it has to do with Subconsciousness is my own explanation in regards to the Science.

Generally ideomotor is explained by Science as an UN-conscious movement which is not recognised at the time by conscious awareness – and is associated with the users beliefs and desired results, and the user is literally fooled by their conscious state of awareness that they are not moving the pointing device and this is made most obvious by blindfolding the user and seeing what happens.

Without eyes, the user is no longer in control and the results verify that this is so, because there is no message – and in some tests – even the device is turned after the blindfold is placed on the user and a question is asked which should require a ‘Yes’ and the pointer moves to where the user thinks the ‘yes’ is, and thus verifies that it is the user who is either unconsciously or purposefully moving that pointer.

Tarot and Runes are part of that process to, depending upon how they are used but I am happy to agree with you at this point that they need not be regarded as necessarily ideomotor effect...but rather that ‘Ouija’ is more like how someone uses Tarot and Runes rather than the other way around – my bad – *I need to explain this in more detail for clarification.

Spirit and the afterlife does exist so taking them out of the equation does not make sense....

Beliefs exist about Spirit and afterlife. These are different for different folks, cultures, religions etc.
Beliefs have to be factored into the equation as unproven, and therefore scientifically unverifiable.

This is why I recommend removing beliefs from the process and just letting the ideomotor effect ‘speak’ for its self.
*It would be better at this point to start a thread about my own experiences rather than try to expand my explanations in this one.

<^>

[Bhabha]

How can I close a portal if I opened one in the past?