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Hello,
I'm going to speak about meditation and what's effective... and what is a crock.
We just start by 'what is meditation?', and I thought about this having practiced many methods and achieving squat diddly.
There is no road to Truth.
We can't deny what actually is now and place it in the imaginary future somewhere... to chase the carrot which is always dangling just out of reach? What a donkey!
I think first forget the word meditation and the preconceptions that go with it.
It's to be as you are... and there's no funky spiritual 'be-ing' which makes one think like rainbow dew drops on morning roses... nope, just you being.
It is not chanting like a crazed om, imagining light and dreamscapes or in anyway imposing personal preferences upon what really is. Just be there and notice. Not to bring opinions, concepts, imaginations, preferences, expectation, false conclusions or any of the bushwa learned while seeking enlightenment. There is no road to Truth.
To notice means no desires for wonderful wonderful wonderful and no adversions for aches and pains, emotional torment or the inability to still the mind... just be with equanimity, indifference, balance... and notice.
Just be there and notice... See more deeply and become aware of what is..
What else could it be?
Comments?
:smile:
Spirited
25-10-2010, 11:43 AM
That makes a lot of sense to me and more or less sums the whole experience up. There seems to be far too much emphasis on what is right or wrong within some churches and other spiritual circles. I have sat in 2 different circles at seperate churches in the past and they both had their way of "meditating" which has been completely different to each other. One would teach you to imagine walking up a staircase, with each step changing to the colour of a corresponding chakra and the other would teach you to open up doors for each chakra light to shine out. However, on hindsight after experience I have come to the same conclusion to you, there is not really a right or wrong way and you shouldn't focus too much on imagining / visualising mental images but just learning to quieten the mind and only focus on "being".
Good post and I believe more should follow that way of thinking to achieve best results :smile:
What if you notice dreamscapes or a feeling of wonderful ?
BlueSky
25-10-2010, 12:51 PM
To notice means no desires for wonderful wonderful wonderful and no adversions for aches and pains, emotional torment or the inability to still the mind... just be with equanimity, indifference, balance... and notice. Gem
I enjoyed your post Gem but it makes me wonder..with this advice you give, what if someone came back and said:
'How does one come to have no desires for wonderful and no adversion to pain?
I mean if one notices desires for wonderful or adversions to pain or un-equanimity and difference and unbalance, shouldn't one just be with all that as well? '
To notice means no desires for wonderful wonderful wonderful and no adversions for aches and pains, emotional torment or the inability to still the mind... just be with equanimity, indifference, balance... and notice. Gem
I enjoyed your post Gem but it makes me wonder..with this advice you give, what if someone came back and said:
'How does one come to have no desires for wonderful and no adversion to pain?
I mean if one notices desires for wonderful or adversions to pain or un-equanimity and difference and unbalance, shouldn't one just be with all that as well? '
There'll be preference and it is unaviodable, I have never not had preference, but craving is only in desire of some fantistic sensation... set in the future somewhere.
The pain can't be avoided and is less preferred but it can be noticed without an adverse reaction to it by the knowing it is tempory and will soon pass.
No experience is permanent. All sensations pass.
But still ... just be with what is, is the primary thing ... don't expect to be perfect.
Bottom line ... yes.
What if you notice dreamscapes or a feeling of wonderful ?
Enjoy it while it lasts. It won't last long.
What if you notice... a feeling of wonderful ?
Yes indeed, Heather.
What if we gave more and more of our attention to the feeling of wonderful so that it increases exponentially in time and depth. (Speaking from my own experience.)
What if we discover this wonderfulness is actually our own Be-ing.
Xan
If the state of being is wonderful then no need to imagine something wonderful, expect anything wonderful... nor is there any point in saying everything is wonderful.
In my experience someone might feel a dank heavy feeling in his guts... maybe an intense pain in his chest, or just an aching back perhaps.
The thought 'This should be wonderful' is in denial of what really is, and indeed there will be extraordinarily wonderful sensations/experiences... but if not then so it is.
The idealism which is now creeping into the thread might be tempting and it might be the experience of someone, but it might not be the experience of someone else.
The main thing is 'the wonderful' does not have more inherant value that 'Pain in the chest'. If wonderful observe wonderful, don't expect it or pretend it or imagine it, because perhaps inreality there is a pain in the chest, which has no more value than 'wonderful'.
All sensations pass and can be observed rising and observed passing away.
It's not an idealism. It is just being there to notice what passes moment by moment.
Hello,
I'm going to speak about meditation and what's effective... and what is a crock.
We just start by 'what is meditation?', and I thought about this having practiced many methods and achieving squat diddly.
It might not be meditation but what one expects to get from it. Many meditate thinking that is the end all and be all of life or understanding life. Meditaiton is but TOOL we have. NOT a fix.
There is no road to Truth.
Well one would have to define what is truth. That can be Spiritual Truth or personal truth. Too is there a findal truth that final undersanding of sayEnlightentment I would say NO. Not in the life we live in the human form. I too wonder on the Soul ever finding that place. That final truth as there is somethign one can always add "WHY" and open discussions all over again.
We can't deny what actually is now and place it in the imaginary future somewhere... to chase the carrot which is always dangling just out of reach? What a donkey!
We are all at times chasing that Carrot its called wanting a future. That does not mean its a totally bad thing is it. What the beast can always do is JUST STOP and refuse to chase anymore.
I think first forget the word meditation and the preconceptions that go with it.
It's to be as you are... and there's no funky spiritual 'be-ing' which makes one think like rainbow dew drops on morning roses... nope, just you being.
It is not chanting like a crazed om, imagining light and dreamscapes or in anyway imposing personal preferences upon what really is. Just be there and notice. Not to bring opinions, concepts, imaginations, preferences, expectation, false conclusions or any of the bushwa learned while seeking enlightenment. There is no road to Truth.
To notice means no desires for wonderful wonderful wonderful and no adversions for aches and pains, emotional torment or the inability to still the mind... just be with equanimity, indifference, balance... and notice.
Just be there and notice... See more deeply and become aware of what is..
What else could it be?
Comments?
:smile:
Like I SAID meditiaion is a TOOL nothing more. It can be used to relax like I use it and to journey from the body for a time. To excape for a bit the pressures of life. It too for some is Spiritual Learnings and explorations. If that is one' path so be it.
Meditations can bring to one some health benifits can take from one some pains and stresses and clear the brain some of issues running around and around. It too can cleanse at times. Bring forth some hidden fears or issues. If they come up then we an work on clearing them.
Like all things TOOLS can be over used or misused and then one gets NO benifit from them.
Its all about finding that BALANCE in life and sadly some never do in this lifetime. I know I struggle there . I be at peace yes but not at that place of TRUTH by a long ways. Will I get there in this life who knows, WILL I stop trying NO life is too precious a thing.
Lynn
Enjoy it while it lasts. It won't last long.
the reason I asked was my way of pointing to your own path of expectation.
What if we gave more and more of our attention to the feeling of wonderful so that it increases exponentially in time and depth. (Speaking from my own experience.)
Then we would be controlling rather than noticing and going with the natural rhythms of life. To see wonderful in everything is wonderful, but to try and focus our attention only on what we already believe to be wonderful, is to lose the opportunity to see the 'other' side anew.
Gem, in this way, I understand your sentiment...but to replace wonderful being forever with a wonderful that wont last long, youve flipped the expectation to the other side of the coin. What if the coin spun on its rim?
the reason I asked was my way of pointing to your own path of expectation.
Then we would be controlling rather than noticing and going with the natural rhythms of life. To see wonderful in everything is wonderful, but to try and focus our attention only on what we already believe to be wonderful, is to lose the opportunity to see the 'other' side anew.
Gem, in this way, I understand your sentiment...but to replace wonderful being forever with a wonderful that wont last long, youve flipped the expectation to the other side of the coin. What if the coin spun on its rim?
I'm not pointing to anyone's anything, nor interested in the deliberate attempt to point to my whatever it is, so I simply saw since it was a question it must be an inquiry.
I couldn't be more clear: Do not bring expectation here... if you expect all wonderful and a bland or unpleasent experience is had it will lead to disappiontment.
This craving for wonderful wonderful will inevitably lead to disappiontment, which ain't wonderful at all.
Do not expect.
There is no experience or sensation which is permanent, it will change.
:smile:
What if you notice... a feeling of wonderful ?
Yes indeed, Heather.
What if we gave more and more of our attention to the feeling of wonderful so that it increases exponentially in time and depth. (Speaking from my own experience.)
What if we discover this wonderfulness is actually our own Be-ing.
Xan
"increases exponentially in time and depth." In the future you mean. Not now.
Placing the imagined depth and brilliant wonderful on the end of a stick so donkeys will follow it endlessly!
Feel it now and feel it deeply... the practice will improve the perceptive ability, but what is now is important and the future depth is imaginary.
I'm talking about being there and noticing what is... there is no treat in the future, only what is happening now, It is changing and all experience is temporal.
To know the sensation at hand is temporary and short lived. Knowing that allows one to watch with equal balance.
The wonderful is not better than pain, only preferred, not better.
To just be there and see wazzup right now... Maybe it's wonderful, maybe nothing spectacular, maybe it hurts, maybe it is fully emotional, maybe maybe maybe... All them are equal in value ... none better none worse.
I'm not pointing to anyone's anything, nor interested in the deliberate attempt to point to my whatever it is, so I simply saw since it was a question it must be an inquiry.
I couldn't be more clear: Do not bring expectation here... if you expect all wonderful and a bland or unpleasent experience is had it will lead to disappiontment.
This craving for wonderful wonderful will inevitably lead to disappiontment, which ain't wonderful at all.
Do not expect.
There is no experience or sensation which is permanent, it will change.
:smile:
I was speaking of me pointing.
I hear what youre saying, and I do agree with what you have said. But what I was pointing out is that this... Enjoy it while it lasts. It won't last long...is an expectation that it wont last long.
I was speaking of me pointing.
I hear what youre saying, and I do agree with what you have said. But what I was pointing out is that this... Enjoy it while it lasts. It won't last long...is an expectation that it wont last long.
The experience will not last long, very quickly it will be gone and something new will replace it. That's just the way it is.
To know it is tempory allows one to let it pass and accept the new.
'Just being there'... that will last throughout all the experiences... and anything could happen...
Hello,
It might not be meditation but what one expects to get from it. Many meditate thinking that is the end all and be all of life or understanding life. Meditaiton is but TOOL we have. NOT a fix.
I agree, but it isn't about getting what one expects, expectation interferes, but it is a tool only for seeing more deeply, feeling more sublty.
Well one would have to define what is truth. That can be Spiritual Truth or personal truth. Too is there a findal truth that final undersanding of sayEnlightentment I would say NO. Not in the life we live in the human form. I too wonder on the Soul ever finding that place. That final truth as there is somethign one can always add "WHY" and open discussions all over again.
Bugger the truth, nothing to do with meditating. Sorry I mentioned it at all.
Enlightenment... makes no difference meditate anyway, or don't, meditation isn't important and lots of very contented folks don't meditate.
We are all at times chasing that Carrot its called wanting a future. That does not mean its a totally bad thing is it. What the beast can always do is JUST STOP and refuse to chase anymore.
Sure... plenty of time to wish a good future, and goals are an excellent thing, but to meditate is just to be there and feel whats happining, there is no goal but there is knowing that the depth of perception will improve. It just will
Good Idea. Just stop and see the carrot is still always just out of reach.
No carrot here!
Like I SAID meditiaion is a TOOL nothing more. It can be used to relax like I use it and to journey from the body for a time. To excape for a bit the pressures of life. It too for some is Spiritual Learnings and explorations. If that is one' path so be it.
Meditations can bring to one some health benifits can take from one some pains and stresses and clear the brain some of issues running around and around. It too can cleanse at times. Bring forth some hidden fears or issues. If they come up then we an work on clearing them.
Like all things TOOLS can be over used or misused and then one gets NO benifit from them.
Its all about finding that BALANCE in life and sadly some never do in this lifetime. I know I struggle there . I be at peace yes but not at that place of TRUTH by a long ways. Will I get there in this life who knows, WILL I stop trying NO life is too precious a thing.
Lynn
Beaut Lynn,
It's just to be there, of course pain will come and go and there will be emotions rising and wonderful pleasure... all that happens will just happen.
Being there not to excape from anything but to observe it deeply, become aware of it, it'll be there and it will pass and new experience will rise be noticed moment by moment and it too will pass.
It's a good health benefit and will relax the one who does it.
BALANCE! Thank's lynn... that's the whole point. To just see whatever it is is temporal and short lived. To know this will enable one to see/feel the pleasant and unpleasent with equal balance.
It is all about the balance.
Thanks Lynn.
If the state of being is wonderful then no need to imagine something wonderful, expect anything wonderful... nor is there any point in saying everything is wonderful.
In my experience someone might feel a dank heavy feeling in his guts... maybe an intense pain in his chest, or just an aching back perhaps.
The thought 'This should be wonderful' is in denial of what really is, and indeed there will be extraordinarily wonderful sensations/experiences... but if not then so it is.
The idealism which is now creeping into the thread might be tempting and it might be the experience of someone, but it might not be the experience of someone else.
Yes, exactly. The 'feeling of wonderful' is certainly not a "should" nor does it show up through denial of difficulties, nor through imagination and idealism.
However, in learning to be present with everything that shows up... with accepting and letting go... gradually we create an open space in ourselves for surprising experiences like joy and love for-no-reason.
Denying this essence of reality is not different from denying the surface reality of pain.
Xan
What if we gave more and more of our attention to the feeling of wonderful so that it increases exponentially in time and depth.
Then we would be controlling rather than noticing and going with the natural rhythms of life. To see wonderful in everything is wonderful, but to try and focus our attention only on what we already believe to be wonderful, is to lose the opportunity to see the 'other' side anew.
Whether we are aware of it or not, we always have the option of choosing where our attention goes. When it follows unconscious patterns of negativity, that's what colors our experience of life.
But my point is about allowing awareness of the 'feeling of wonderful' in our true nature through inner focus, not seeing it in everything.
Xan
Thanks guys...
I just come back to the point that one might experience wonderful, and will... but a wonderful experience will arise and then pass away, so there can be no attachment to it. One will see such 'wonderful' as passing and know it can't be held onto any more than one can hold the breeze in his grasp.
One can just observe, feel... and notice such a wonderful experience... and so a pain arises and one can just observe/feel and notice... and neither preference has any inherant value except the consistancy of change.
To know this impermanance will allow the quiet observation of all that passes...
learning to be present with everything that shows up... with accepting and letting go...
sound
07-11-2010, 08:49 AM
Yes ... attempting to preserve 'moments' always proves to be futile ... and serves as a distraction to what is occurring 'now' ...
Yes ... attempting to preserve 'moments' always proves to be futile ... and serves as a distraction to what is occurring 'now' ...
Zigzagly, you say it much better.
I just always want to start at the begining... and I guess that is training to focus the attention, because focusing is the way of perceiving more intently or seeing more deeply and in all... being deeply aware or becoming more conscious.
The breath is the best because it is happening naturally quite subconsciously and turning attention to the naturally occuring respiration turns attention to subconscious activity.
No need to alter the breathing, just notice the sensation of air moving in and out the nose and remain aware of it. No effort required really, just retain the awareness as the air moves in and air moves out.
Practice, because the mind will wander away... and you notice 'oh mind wandered away' and smilingly return awareness to the breathing... so there is the start.
Reminder: it is not to find enlightenment, truth or anything imagined in the future, just to see it as it is right now.
Enlightenment... makes no difference meditate anyway, or don't, meditation isn't important and lots of very contented folks don't meditate.
This all depends on how you define meditation. For me, walking is meditation especially if I take a walk in a beautiful location and just look. So is knitting, if I am stressed or just sitting back and observing the spirits around me. All serve to bring me back to centre and feel peaceful.
For some people, sitting quietly on their front porch observing the world, or working in their gardens or any other activity that they enjoy that allows the mind to just observe. They just dont think about it as meditation.
This all depends on how you define meditation. For me, walking is meditation especially if I take a walk in a beautiful location and just look. So is knitting, if I am stressed or just sitting back and observing the spirits around me. All serve to bring me back to centre and feel peaceful.
For some people, sitting quietly on their front porch observing the world, or working in their gardens or any other activity that they enjoy that allows the mind to just observe. They just dont think about it as meditation.
Excellent.
I said in the OP that the best thing to do was to throw out and forget all the preconceived notions anyone has learned... because at its heart meditation is just being there observing what is happening spontaneously.
I totally agree meditation should not be removed from our daily lives, and as you say... just like that.
Practice is good to deepen perception, and that depth applies to all activity.
Thanks... good point Bri.
Just imagine right now you close your eyes to meditate.
Usually it is best to retain attention on the breathing which is just the sensation of air moving.
I think to meditate is to just be there and notice what happens, and just be quiet making no imaginings, wishes, expectations, desries or avesions.
I think to just be there is wonderful enough, so it makes very little difference what experience is had, it's only to be curious and to see and feel more deeply.
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