Importance of "Not Knowing"

[VesicaPhoenix11]

In my own development I have found the importance of being aware of "not knowing", the constant reminder to myself that my perception is so limited that when it comes down to it - there is not one thing I can one hundred percent say I know with absolute certainty.. about myself, about the world, about experience...

I do know and choose to know that in my experience there are moments that impart understanding but that understanding is also limited... and is liable to change.

In my meanderings and thoughts around the boards today I was thinking this - as I appreciate discussions, debates, anywhere and way in which personal perceptions and processes are mingled and visible interests me - not just interests me, but brings me joy even when it troubles me. Because it means people are communicating and through that communication learning more about themselves and others - I get very happy about that as hopefully it means some day as a species we will learn to accept and appreciate one another no matter how different we all may be - peace.

But I also thought how often it is important to remember that what we know - is really only a personal experience and perception - which does not make it a known fact.

Even the things we think we know, the histories we've read, the tidbits science has brought us from observing the repetitive patterns of the natural world, the holy books we place our faith in, the videos and clips that bring the moon to our living room, the echoes of times long past extrapolated upon by archaeologists, the intimacies of the structure of the very bodies we inhabit - are all still not known. There is always wiggle room.

Perhaps I never should have taken philosophy classes as I already had this perception and epistemology (the study of how do we know what we know - check out the mind in a vat exercise, really try to apply it as if you were being tested on it, it's something else in its humbling power) only strengthened this slant of mine. Then neuroscience, as I learned that what I thought were truths about the mind - the physicality of it - are also flexible and constantly being explored for they are far from known - and that the senses with which I perceive the world alter that information a million times before it ever reaches my conscious mind. History? Oh, history.. is what has been passed down on bits of paper, codex, and stone throughout the years... we compare paper to paper, historian to historian, artifact to artifact - but what was lost?

My point is - I always try to remember that in order to communicate with myself and others - in order to act in the world, to work and to play I must choose to act as if I know things, sometimes I must even choose to believe I know things but ultimately I know nothing - not logically for knowledge is mutable.

In my own development this has been invaluable, it was the first realization I began to apply when I began to consciously put all of this together - the realization that I knew nothing about myself or the world - and from then on each truth, each fact, each moment of knowing I experience is always integrated with the knowledge that I know nothing, not really. It was very freeing as my inherent trait as a child and teenager was to debate, to be very serious about my knowing, to say "I know", to attach myself to my knowledge as a way of navigating my experiences - and the letting go of that, the continuing to let go of that allows me to be open and to grow. Knowing is limiting for it tricks me in to limits that aren't necessarily there.. it places limits on myself and limits on the world.... which on occasion are useful, but they aren't absolute.

This is the basis of my "spiritual development", one of my first lessons and one I remind myself of continually, and when I forget I usually have to laugh at myself when I remember - and while I know (*laughs*) that this isn't important for everyone's path perhaps it'll be important to someone and so thought I'd share...

[Absonite]

"I know what I know - and I don't know what I don't know."


For me, knowing is based upon experiencing. When I experience something, then I know it. If I don't experience something, then I don't know it. The best I can do when I do not know something (because I have not experienced it) is to comprehend it - but comprehension is just being cognizant of how concepts for a topic interact.

And comprehending something never is the same as knowing something - in much the same way that being aware of descriptions on a menu never is the same as knowing the meals based upon the experience of eating them.

[missrachel300]

The more I see, the less I know. :)

[VesicaPhoenix11]

"All I know, is that I don't know" - my motto. *smile* :wink:

[Greenslade]

My point is - I always try to remember that in order to communicate with myself and others - in order to act in the world, to work and to play I must choose to act as if I know things, sometimes I must even choose to believe I know things but ultimately I know nothing - not logically for knowledge is mutable.

Or perhaps simply put ourselves into context. We are human, designed and 'manufactured' to be limited - and perhaps within Spirituality that's the whole point of things. One phrase that has served me well is "If you want to understand Spirit, you have to think like Spirit". Imagine, just for one day, wearing a blindfold and strapping an arm to your side so you can't use it. What experience would you gain, Spiritually? Now imagine yourself as Spirit with all that it is supposed to be, what would you gain from being human with all its limitations?

We are human and sometimes we need a place where we can dig our heels in and make a stand against the shifting sand. We need to make order from the chaos, something constant in a constantly changing Universe. We think we know and it becomes The Truth, an entrenchment surrounded by sandbags with a machine gun sticking out the front. We've invested so many hours reading books and gaining knowledge so it has to mean something, right? After all, that hard work has to mean something.

Like beavers we build a dam against the stream of consciousness. Perhaps if we just stood there and watched the ripples, allowed the stream to flow as it will and recognise what we know for what it is, a small piece of flotsam that has been carried by the stream. By all means take the piece of flotsam, but remember it belongs to the stream and not ourselves so allow it to continue its own Journey.

[Ivy]

I like these quotes on the subject. Sharing them is my way of saying I agree with you :smile:

To believe you are right
narrows the view considerably

When you are wrong, you have found something new,

When you are right, youve done nothing but create a known situation.

[VesicaPhoenix11]

Or perhaps simply put ourselves into context. We are human, designed and 'manufactured' to be limited - and perhaps within Spirituality that's the whole point of things. One phrase that has served me well is "If you want to understand Spirit, you have to think like Spirit". Imagine, just for one day, wearing a blindfold and strapping an arm to your side so you can't use it. What experience would you gain, Spiritually? Now imagine yourself as Spirit with all that it is supposed to be, what would you gain from being human with all its limitations?

We are human and sometimes we need a place where we can dig our heels in and make a stand against the shifting sand. We need to make order from the chaos, something constant in a constantly changing Universe. We think we know and it becomes The Truth, an entrenchment surrounded by sandbags with a machine gun sticking out the front. We've invested so many hours reading books and gaining knowledge so it has to mean something, right? After all, that hard work has to mean something.

Like beavers we build a dam against the stream of consciousness. Perhaps if we just stood there and watched the ripples, allowed the stream to flow as it will and recognise what we know for what it is, a small piece of flotsam that has been carried by the stream. By all means take the piece of flotsam, but remember it belongs to the stream and not ourselves so allow it to continue its own Journey.

That's a wonderful way of framing it - context is a strange and shifting thing, the more fluid I am the easier it is to enlarge my context.. one could say. *smile* The more I think I know, the less fluid I am. My Dad used to tell me, in my late teens, that I fought too much, the current of things, and that my life would get easier once I learned to go with the flow... he was wrong about some things but that little piece of wisdom has kept me afloat amongst the rapids of existence - and given me ways to find beauty in the chaos. :smile: It helps that he "knew" so much - intellectually that is - and showed me how little that actually meant in the large scheme of things.

Thank you for your point of view Greenslade and for the thoughts it spurred.

To believe you are right
narrows the view considerably

When you are wrong, you have found something new,

When you are right, youve done nothing but create a known situation.

Exactly! Being wrong is such an opportunity isn't it. *smile* Thank you Meadows.

[running]

In my experience its in the not knowing that a knowing may come out. But the knowing came out of the not knowing, not me. It just popped in from I don't know where knowing something. I think that's why a lot of things may come to us once we stop trying to remember something.

[Seawolf]

I think it's good to realize we don't know anything. But the human mind is so crafty that it will use that as a source of pride and knowing. So we'll compare ourselves to all those people who 'think they know', whereas as we're ultra wise and realize we don't know anything. LOL

[VesicaPhoenix11]

In my experience its in the not knowing that a knowing may come out. But the knowing came out of the not knowing, not me. It just popped in from I don't know where knowing something. I think that's why a lot of things may come to us once we stop trying to remember something.

I dig. For me, when I stopped knowing as much and started just experiencing without knowing - some understanding and acceptance happened instead and with that some new kinds of "knowing". Guess I learned new things by being open to them... clearing the space in my head for them to appear. :wink:

I think it's good to realize we don't know anything. But the human mind is so crafty that it will use that as a source of pride and knowing. So we'll compare ourselves to all those people who 'think they know', whereas as we're ultra wise and realize we don't know anything. LOL

*laughs* Yes, the mind is a crafty, sneaky tool that can get up to shenanigans even with the best of intentions, sometimes because of the best intentions. Easy to fall in to traps, even for us ultra wise who know we don't know... *smile* I find, for me, not comparing myself to others helps with that and the idea there is always something to work on in myself so I shouldn't spend too much time thinking about where I am as compared to others, since the answer to that is who cares - I have my own development to attend to. Plus, the understanding there is always something I am wrong about and there is always some angle of a situation, experience or/and person I can not see. - It was difficult at first, but as the years go by it has become second nature.

But, that said - a trap for me is in thinking that just because I have realized something and applied it to my life until it has become second nature (say, remembering not to be attached to "knowledge") doesn't mean I can't forget it again and that it has to continually be practiced in order to be effective.... that one gets me every time. :wink:

[Greenslade]

That's a wonderful way of framing it - context is a strange and shifting thing, the more fluid I am the easier it is to enlarge my context.. one could say. *smile* The more I think I know, the less fluid I am. My Dad used to tell me, in my late teens, that I fought too much, the current of things, and that my life would get easier once I learned to go with the flow... he was wrong about some things but that little piece of wisdom has kept me afloat amongst the rapids of existence - and given me ways to find beauty in the chaos. :smile: It helps that he "knew" so much - intellectually that is - and showed me how little that actually meant in the large scheme of things.

Thank you for your point of view Greenslade and for the thoughts it spurred.

You're most welcome :smile:

Sometimes there is wisdom in going against the flow, ask Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Going against the flow can make us flexible in another way and we learn how to duck and dive to avoid the obstacles and make us stronger swimmers, whereas going with the flow might bash us against the rocks. It's all experience and it's all for the good. But beavering away at what you think you know is only good for disrupting the flow.

Chaos is good too sometimes - or what we perceive as chaos but often there is order within it. And it does indeed have its own beauty and even wisdom. Perhaps it isn't so chaotic, perhaps there's just so much going on that we don't know about.

But the knowing came out of the not knowing, not me. It just popped in from I don't know where knowing something.

Some call that intuition or gnosis - basically knowing without knowing how you know. Some people fill their heads with Spiritual 'facts' that becomes their truth then The Truth, that's when the problems really start. Reason and logic take hold but there is another reason and logic that they've completely ignored. Often we need to clear out the attic and make room for something else, the Universe is always on the move and the baggage can be such a pain to shift when all you really need is a small knapsack.

I read somewhere about this existence not being the illusion, it's our way of thinking that's illusionary.

I think it's good to realize we don't know anything. But the human mind is so crafty that it will use that as a source of pride and knowing. So we'll compare ourselves to all those people who 'think they know', whereas as we're ultra wise and realize we don't know anything. LOL

Ultra-wise? That's a nice way of looking at it, rather than 'my head leaks' lol. I found this quite interesting - http://www.gestaltreality.com/2012/12/12/2012-to-%E2%88%9E-a-new-spiritual-paradigm/

Whatever happened to good old plain old common sense?

[God-Like]

[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]In my own development I have found the importance of being aware of "not knowing", the constant reminder to myself that my perception is so limited that when it comes down to it - there is not one thing I can one hundred percent say I know with absolute certainty.. about myself, about the world, about experience...



Hi V.P.

Is this something that you cannot be 100% certain about .. The fact that there is nothing that you can be 100% certain of .

Is this something you know?

It's perhaps similar to one saying there is no truth and that is the truth . lol .

x daz x

[missrachel300]

Errr... I think VP's philosophy is just used to check ones self against becoming too rigid in ones beliefs and thoughts, to keep an open mind and to leave room for a possible larger picture...

Although, I could be wrong... lol.

[God-Like]

Errr... I think VP's philosophy is just used to check ones self against becoming too rigid in ones beliefs and thoughts, to keep an open mind and to leave room for a possible larger picture...

Although, I could be wrong... lol.

Only VP will know rachel lol :smile:

x daz x

[missrachel300]

Only VP will know rachel lol :smile:


*Patiently awaiting for the answer!* :wink:

The not knowing is killing me! :happy6:

[VesicaPhoenix11]

Sometimes there is wisdom in going against the flow, ask Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Going against the flow can make us flexible in another way and we learn how to duck and dive to avoid the obstacles and make us stronger swimmers, whereas going with the flow might bash us against the rocks. It's all experience and it's all for the good. But beavering away at what you think you know is only good for disrupting the flow.

Chaos is good too sometimes - or what we perceive as chaos but often there is order within it. And it does indeed have its own beauty and even wisdom. Perhaps it isn't so chaotic, perhaps there's just so much going on that we don't know about.

I agree with you, its about knowing when its time to go with the flow and when its time to go against - its all in the timing, different tools and perspectives for different moments. A lesson for me was when to go with the flow since my instinct was always to go against... I've read Illusions but have yet to read Jonathan Livingston Seagull... I'll put that on my long overdue "to read" list.

Aye, it can look like chaos from this perspective (to me) sometimes, other times it looks a bit different (fractals, oh fractals) and I am aware I am only seeing a small part of the overall picture which could very well be harmoniously organized, microcosm and macrocosm. *smile* It's all about perception...

Hi V.P.

Is this something that you cannot be 100% certain about .. The fact that there is nothing that you can be 100% certain of .

Is this something you know?

It's perhaps similar to one saying there is no truth and that is the truth . lol .

x daz x

Not with one hundred percent certainty, no. :wink:

*chuckles* Nice catch - yes, the tricky thing with these sorts of "tools" I've stocked my developmental tool kit with is how do you speak of something like knowing you do not know without saying you know something? You can't. *smile* I recognize the absurdity and speak anyway.. there is only truth in silence.

Errr... I think VP's philosophy is just used to check ones self against becoming too rigid in ones beliefs and thoughts, to keep an open mind and to leave room for a possible larger picture...

Although, I could be wrong... lol

Yes, you are right - but you don't know!!! These are jokes. *smile*

The overall idea is yes, not to get hung up on "knowing" or having the answers, the realization that not knowing and being in a state of questioning can be very beneficial for personal growth...

Greenslade touched on a good point; for me its more about being fluid and flexible than it is being attached to any one way of viewing my self and the world, and for me, not knowing was a very big lesson towards that end... but ultimately its just one tool in my kit and isn't always the right one for the job at hand.

Humor - humor is a wonderful tool as well. :angel9:

[VesicaPhoenix11]

Only VP will know rachel lol :smile:

x daz x

That's too funny on too many levels as.. my actual name is Rachel - although I know you are speaking to missrachel300, but it made me laugh. *chuckles*

Now to decide does the VP part know or is it the Rachel part... who has the map?

[God-Like]

That's too funny on too many levels as.. my actual name is Rachel - although I know you are speaking to missrachel300, but it made me laugh. *chuckles*

Now to decide does the VP part know or is it the Rachel part... who has the map?

hahah The funny thing missrachel, I mean Rachel, I mean V.P. is that in some respect everything said by anyone might as well be gibberish or spoken in a language that makes no sense to anyone . However some things hit home like an eureka moment where intuitively one knows something without any doubt .

Perhaps translating/evaluating what is beyond doubt to then make some kind of sense .. then causes doubt because it's then not what it really is to some degree .. lol .

Within a certain field within mind there are contradictions and my life experience entertains many ..

x daz x

[God-Like]

*Patiently awaiting for the answer!* :wink:

The not knowing is killing me! :happy6:

me laughs . :hug3:

x dazzle x

[God-Like]

[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]although I know you are speaking to missrachel300,

How do you know I was speaking to missrachel :D :tongue:

x dazzle x

[VesicaPhoenix11]

Aye, in my experience I've found truth seems to lie in paradox making it very difficult to speak to others about it with words - but doesn't change the way it lodges in the self, but in many ways it's only a personal truth that may or may not translate in to anyone else's experience so I do not think of it as "knowing" in the basic sense of the word - but that's another thread and another day.

[missrachel300]

I just lolzed for real. :laughing6:

[VesicaPhoenix11]

Laughter - the best kind of medicine. Who needs to "know" when we can laugh... in my experience (there I go with that again) laughter is a great cure for being hung up on knowing - and its just fun. *smile*

[Seawolf]

I dig. For me, when I stopped knowing as much and started just experiencing without knowing - some understanding and acceptance happened instead and with that some new kinds of "knowing". Guess I learned new things by being open to them... clearing the space in my head for them to appear. :wink:



*laughs* Yes, the mind is a crafty, sneaky tool that can get up to shenanigans even with the best of intentions, sometimes because of the best intentions. Easy to fall in to traps, even for us ultra wise who know we don't know... *smile* I find, for me, not comparing myself to others helps with that and the idea there is always something to work on in myself so I shouldn't spend too much time thinking about where I am as compared to others, since the answer to that is who cares - I have my own development to attend to. Plus, the understanding there is always something I am wrong about and there is always some angle of a situation, experience or/and person I can not see. - It was difficult at first, but as the years go by it has become second nature.

But, that said - a trap for me is in thinking that just because I have realized something and applied it to my life until it has become second nature (say, remembering not to be attached to "knowledge") doesn't mean I can't forget it again and that it has to continually be practiced in order to be effective.... that one gets me every time. :wink:
I identify with everything here. Attachment is a constant hassle for me :tongue: It's like excersice, I can get out of the habit if I'm not consistent. But I think my attitude slowly gets better through practicing letting go, even though there are ups and downs.

Really enjoyed the post! Makes me feel not so alone. :hug3:

[Trieah]

Laughter - the best kind of medicine. Who needs to "know" when we can laugh... in my experience (there I go with that again) laughter is a great cure for being hung up on knowing - and its just fun. *smile*

LOL!!! I think that's one of the only things I actually do know to be true :wink: But then again, what the heck do I know anyway :D

[VesicaPhoenix11]

I identify with everything here. Attachment is a constant hassle for me It's like excersice, I can get out of the habit if I'm not consistent. But I think my attitude slowly gets better through practicing letting go, even though there are ups and downs.

Really enjoyed the post! Makes me feel not so alone.

:hug3:..back atcha! I'm glad my words were able to do such a thing, I'll call that my accomplishment for the day - I can be lazy from here on out. *chuckles* It is like exercise isn't it - every day is a continual reapplication of adjusting my perspective.. if I don't use it, I lose it. But, just like when I go to the gym, once I've worked myself up to my six mile run that first time, after that it gets easier and easier to go the same distance even when laziness interferes for periods of time. (Laziness is one of my lessons... *smile*)

Here is a conundrum for you - how do we remember not to be too attached to being not attached? *laughs* Rhetorical of course, but it just leapt from my head to the screen so I thought I'd leave it here.

LOL!!! I think that's one of the only things I actually do know to be true But then again, what the heck do I know anyway.

Exactly! *smile* Laughter is really a great tool for loosening the self up and as a reminder not to take anything too seriously - in the task of remembering how intangible what we think we know actually is I have found it invaluable. Learning to laugh at myself was key... being a serious & defensive sort when I was younger (and still am when I forget myself) it was a hard won key. Now, I have to remember to tone it down sometimes as I am often the only one laughing... but at least I always get my own jokes. :D

Seriously though... *smirks* I should probably add an addendum that personal truths are somewhat exempt from the not knowing clause in my wyrd little book of guidelines for existing - my tool kit - personal truths are like drawing lines in the sand that are sometimes needed in order to give a frame work to experience, I wield them with the awareness that they are mine and may only be true for me, but they are never up for debate with others and do change as my experience changes. Whereas "knowledge" is always up for debate...

[Seawolf]

[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]

:hug3:..back atcha! I'm glad my words were able to do such a thing, I'll call that my accomplishment for the day - I can be lazy from here on out. *chuckles* It is like exercise isn't it - every day is a continual reapplication of adjusting my perspective.. if I don't use it, I lose it. But, just like when I go to the gym, once I've worked myself up to my six mile run that first time, after that it gets easier and easier to go the same distance even when laziness interferes for periods of time. (Laziness is one of my lessons... *smile*)

Here is a conundrum for you - how do we remember not to be too attached to being not attached? *laughs* Rhetorical of course, but it just leapt from my head to the screen so I thought I'd leave it here.


Unfortunately I don't have that problem yet. I'm attached to so many things it's hard enough just to keep up with that! I don't see it as a bad thing, it's just I know my perception of 'out there' is really all 'in here' and I tend to forget. It's great fun, I don't see it as a hassle, it may be challenging but the rewards are very enjoyable. Not being angry all the time is my personal favorite. It's good to look back and see how far we've come sometimes. :cool:

[Trieah]

Now, I have to remember to tone it down sometimes as I am often the only one laughing... but at least I always get my own jokes. :D

Oh, I here ya there :wink:

[VesicaPhoenix11]

"I know what I know - and I don't know what I don't know."

For me, knowing is based upon experiencing. When I experience something, then I know it. If I don't experience something, then I don't know it. The best I can do when I do not know something (because I have not experienced it) is to comprehend it - but comprehension is just being cognizant of how concepts for a topic interact.

And comprehending something never is the same as knowing something - in much the same way that being aware of descriptions on a menu never is the same as knowing the meals based upon the experience of eating them.

Absonite, my apologies, I just noticed I was unintentionally rude and didn't take the time to attend to your response at the beginning of this thread. I'm not sure if you will be back or not but who knows...

I can appreciate that view, realistic and straightforward. I think I also understand the reasoning behind your distinction between comprehension and knowing...

My question is - what has been your interpretation of knowing something through direct experience - and then having another experience that contradicts the knowledge of a previous experience?

I ask, because that has been my experience and is part of what led me to this perception. What I thought I knew became incorrect (not known) - and what was not known became known. This can happen as awareness changes through experience. Sometimes new knowing directly contradicts old knowing - when I was growing up I thought the mind had a limited amount of neurons at maturity and from then on out it was a steady decline - bye bye neurons. I now know that pregnant women generate new neurons in the olfactory bulb and that exercise can create neurogenesis (birth of new neurons) in the hippocampus. For one example.

This leads me to question what knowledge I hold now - that I think I know - which is actually erroneous in the light of some other knowing that I haven't learned yet. Things I think about... :wink: .. but that said, I do appreciate knowing what you know and not knowing what you don't know. You may get more done than I do. *smile*

Unfortunately I don't have that problem yet. I'm attached to so many things it's hard enough just to keep up with that! I don't see it as a bad thing, it's just I know my perception of 'out there' is really all 'in here' and I tend to forget. It's great fun, I don't see it as a hassle, it may be challenging but the rewards are very enjoyable. Not being angry all the time is my personal favorite. It's good to look back and see how far we've come sometimes.

Either do I - although it is amusing to think about, a cat's cradle thought, just for the fun of it. I have so many different projects on my work bench it'll be quite some time (who am I kidding, if ever...) before its clear enough to be concerned with am I too attached to not being attached to knowing. (Well, I white lie, I can see how that could become a detriment if it impeded my movement in life, my ability to act, but I don't have that issue at the moment, so carrying on...) Agreed, its not a hassle. For me it is infinitely interesting - this whole exploring my own "unique" consciousness and my interaction with other "unique" consciousness and how that effects and creates the shared reality we call our experience of the world. What I call this life gig. *smile* Being interested in just being alive is my personal favorite. :wink: Its nerdy but it keeps me amused and occupied which is all for the best.

[sisi14]

I apologize if this is off topic -- I'm jumping into the fray without reading the posts thoroughly, but about a year ago (five years into a no-holds-barred spiritual journey) I took up this mantra:

I don't know what I don't know. :confused:

Kinda has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? But, truth be told, it merely is a gentle reminder to my heart and mind to stay open and my ego to "try" to stay out of the conversation. :D

[VesicaPhoenix11]

I apologize if this is off topic -- I'm jumping into the fray without reading the posts thoroughly, but about a year ago (five years into a no-holds-barred spiritual journey) I took up this mantra:

I don't know what I don't know. :confused:

Kinda has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? But, truth be told, it merely is a gentle reminder to my heart and mind to stay open and my ego to "try" to stay out of the conversation. :D

No problem, it isn't off topic and even if it was I am not a strict thread task master - sometimes tangents uncover unexpected opportunities to learn! *smile* Another person in the thread said something similar except their mantra had an additional line "I know what I know and I don't know what I don't know" - mine is "All I know is that I don't know."

It does have a nice ring, I think gentle reminders are often the best as when I'm too hard on myself about something it seems that is when I get in my own way even more so - my ego gets even more up to tricks, instead sneaking it past on tip toes does seem to work more effectively...

Thank you for sharing your perspective! :D

[Seawolf]

What I call this life gig. *smile* Being interested in just being alive is my personal favorite. :wink: Its nerdy but it keeps me amused and occupied which is all for the best. [/color]
Being at the forefront of this incredible thing called life, moving and interacting with others is very interesting! :D Living is also hard but I just keep rowing. Plus action is just so much fun! :wink: