Infinity.

[Gem]

The comparison of two things in isolation is infinity and a dual relationship is infinite.

To make one distinction is the same as comparing two things.

The primal quality of infinity is a single distinction. This means inifinty has finite qualities, as a single differentiation defines the limit 'Two'.

The two things distinguished can't have any form as the single differentiation allows no definition of them and they are only existant to infinite degrees.

Our sayings like 'as above so below' and symbols like yin yang are directly referencing the infinite by drawing attention to a single distinction.

The facets called oneness and duality are intertwined and never seperatable so the arguement about these demonstrates a lack of understanding on both party's parts.

Interesting in that it's boring ay?

:smile:

[psychoslice]

It certainly is boring lol.:D

[Gem]

It certainly is boring lol.:D

Certainty doesn't apply.

Consider the use of oneness and duality to evoke arguement and prove one mans great wisdom over another's ignorance... both demonstrating limited understanding and insisting upon their righteousness.

Certainty: A finite field of definition... An infinite field still has definition but no-one can know what it is with certainty.

[psychoslice]

When one has disappeared into oneness, there is no argument, arguments belong to the illusion in duality.

[Gem]

When one has disappeared into oneness, there is no argument, arguments belong to the illusion in duality.

I think this is not true, because you do not recognise that you make great proclamations about oneness and render duality into illusion.

Where the arguement really ends is oneness and the duality are completely concurrent, but that is already expressed in the OP deemed boring.

The seperation only lies in mentally seperating these states, but in the very nature of it that actually isn't possible, thus the argument you present is oneness vs duality.

You simply can't grasp upon one nor upon the other... both are the same value and neither are things apart.

[Gem]

Lets just look at it objectively, to disappear into oneness, yet be.

Remove the activity and observe the essence of being, if not for awareness there would be no cognition of being, and awareness is not alone, it is sentient.

Will this be seen as oneness? I guess if one wishes, or is it twoness, can be seen so.

There is something to be aware of, and there is something being aware, to disappear into oneness is only one way of seeing and saying, or awareness is between the object of awareness and that which is aware of it.

[Lynn]

Hello

When one talks on "oneness" I see that as the transfer of divine, into energy .

We are said to be on a path to that oneness or enlightenment of our Soul or the Soul ( as the Soul is not just ours). To find that place of balance where the Mind ( Soul) and body become in a balance as one.


When ye stop and think on this on the level if infinity if oneness goes to a state of being 'singleness" or "wholeness". Is that what infinity is ?

When things become in that singleness state they are then infinite ?

It is said that the Spirit is eternal so that would mean that maybe its infinite that the essece of ye lives on forever.

Then it is said that the Soul finds Enlightenment and that is the final state. So is that too then an infinite state ?

We can measure energy but it is said we can not see it or touch it. That energy had no start of no stop it just constanty flows.

Interesting idea this infinity thing or is it ia thing ?


Lynn

[Gem]

Hello

When one talks on "oneness" I see that as the transfer of divine, into energy .

We are said to be on a path to that oneness or enlightenment of our Soul or the Soul ( as the Soul is not just ours). To find that place of balance where the Mind ( Soul) and body become in a balance as one.


When ye stop and think on this on the level if infinity if oneness goes to a state of being 'singleness" or "wholeness". Is that what infinity is ?

When things become in that singleness state they are then infinite ?

It is said that the Spirit is eternal so that would mean that maybe its infinite that the essece of ye lives on forever.

Then it is said that the Soul finds Enlightenment and that is the final state. So is that too then an infinite state ?

We can measure energy but it is said we can not see it or touch it. That energy had no start of no stop it just constanty flows.

Interesting idea this infinity thing or is it ia thing ?


Lynn

If we get rid of things we could say at one end there is the individual expressions and at the other end that which is being expressed.

Infinity is only measured as itself, and any finite ammount is just an infinitesmal point in relation to the whole...

We only measure change or difference in forms of energy, and each form must be different to be, as it defines itself by all other forms, and it must always change, because it isn't actually a thing... it's only an expression of energy.

I do not know what enlightenment is, I guess it means 'the light' and so it means the darkness where the duality meets in balance.

In this one will say 'oneness' yet still make reference to the duality, as PhschoSlice demonstrated in his post.

But in me it seems quite plain that infinity is 'one measure', but the formula for its being is the function of duality, and if spirit is eternal (infinite) by what nature of being is it so, and here is the universe... the very expression of life.

[Valus]

If you think there's a difference
between monism and dualism --
you're a dualist.

;)

[Gem]

If you think there's a difference
between monism and dualism --
you're a dualist.

;)

Hehehehe...you said it pal.

Man you have alot of posts! Ha.

[Valus]

Have you read Sosan's "Book Of Nothing"?

I love it, but I always feel like he's winking at me.

Giving me this obscure, half-conscious glimpse
into the "Buddha Mind", all paradox and subtlety...

But as if to say, "This is not something
which you can understand or play with,
or put to any use at all."

Touch the Buddha Mind,
then go back to being human.

Like that.

But I don't know.


Hsin Hsin Ming (The Book of Nothing)
By Seng T'san (or Sosan), 3rd Zen Patriarch


Its not difficult to discover your Buddha Mind
But just dont try to search for it.
Cease accepting and rejecting possible places
Where you think it can be found
And it will appear before you.
Be warned! The slightest exercise of preference
Will open a gulf as wide and deep
as the space between heaven and earth.
If you want to encounter your Buddha Mind
Dont have opinions about anything.
Opinions produce argument
And contentiousness is a disease of the mind.
Plunge into the depths.
Stillness is deep. Theres nothing profound in shallow waters.
The Buddha Mind is perfect and it encompasses the universe.
It lacks nothing and has nothing in excess.
If you think that you can choose between its parts
Youll miss its very essence.
Dont cling to externals, the opposite things,
the things that exist as relative.
Accept them all impartially
And you wont have to waste time in pointless choosing.
Judgments and discriminations block the flow
and stir the passions.
They roil the mind that needs stillness and peace.
If you go from either-or, this and that,
or any of the countless opposites,
Youll miss the whole, the One.
Following an opposite youll be led astray,
away from the balancing center.
How can you hope to gain the One?
To decide what is, is to determine whats not.
But determining whats not can occupy you
so that it becomes what is.
The more you talk and think. the farther away you get.
Cease talking and thinking and youll find it everywhere.
If you let all things return to their source, thats fine.
But if you stop to think that this is your goal
And that this is what success depends upon
And strive and strive instead of simply letting go,
You wont be doing Zen.
The moment that you start discriminating and preferring
you miss the mark.
Seeking the real is a false view
which should also be abandoned.
Just let go. Cease searching and choosing.
Decisions give rise to confusions
and in confusion where can a mind go?
All the opposing pairs come from the One Great Buddha Mind.
Accept the pairs with gentle resignation.
The Buddha Mind stays calm and still,
Keep your mind within it and nothing can disturb you.
The harmless and the harmful cease to exist.
Subjects when disengaged from their objects vanish
Just as surely as objects,
when disengaged from their subjects, vanish too.
Each depends on the existence of the other.
Understand this duality and youll see
that both issue from the Void of the Absolute.
The Ground of all Being contains all the opposites.
From the One, all things originate.
What a waste of time to choose between coarse and fine.
Since the Great Mind gives birth to all things,
Embrace them all and let your prejudices die.
To realize the Great Mind be neither hesitant nor eager.
If you try to grasp it, youll cling to air
and fall into the way of heretics.
Where is the Great Dao? Can you lay It down?
Will It stay or go?
Is It not everywhere waiting for you
to unite your nature with Its nature
and become as trouble free as It is?
Dont tire your mind by worrying about what is real
and what isnt,
About what to accept and what to reject.
If you want to know the One,
let your senses experience what comes your way,
But dont be swayed and dont involve yourself in what comes.
The wise man acts without emotion
and seems not to be acting at all.
The ignorant man lets his emotions get involved.
The wise man knows that all things are part of the One.
The ignorant man sees differences everywhere.
All things are the same at their core
but clinging to one and discarding another
Is living in illusion.
A mind is not a fit judge of itself.
It is prejudiced in its own favor or disfavor.
It cannot see anything objectively.
Bodhi is far beyond all notions of good and evil,
beyond all the pairs of opposites.
Daydreams are illusions and flowers in the sky never bloom.
They are figments of the imagination
and not worth your consideration.
Profit and Loss, right and wrong, coarse and fine.
Let them all go.
Stay awake. Keep your eyes open.
Your daydreams will disappear.
If you do not make judgments, everything will be
exactly as it is supposed to be.
Deep is the Tathagatas wisdom,
Lofty and beyond all illusions.
This is the One to which all things return
provided you do not separate them,
keeping some and casting others away.
Where can you put them anyway?
All things are within the One.
There is no outside.
The Ultimate has no pattern, no duality,
and is never partial.
Trust in this. Keep your faith strong.
When you lay down all distinctions theres nothing left
but Mind that is now pure, that radiates wisdom,
and is never tired.
When Mind passes beyond discriminations
Thoughts and feelings cannot plumb its depths.
The state is absolute and free.
There is neither self nor other.
You will be aware only that you are part of the One.
Everything is inside and nothing is outside.
All wise men everywhere understand this.
This knowledge is beyond time, long or short,
This knowledge is eternal. It neither is nor is not.
Everywhere is here and the smallest equals the largest.
Space cannot confine anything.
The largest equals the smallest.
There are no boundaries, no within and without.
What is and what is not are the same,
For what is not is equal to what is.
If you do not awaken to this truth,
do not worry yourself about it.
Just believe that your Buddha Mind is not divided,
That it accepts all without judgment.
Give no thoughts to words and speeches or pretty plans
The eternal has no present, past or future.




"The mind is not a vessel to be filled,
but a fire to be kindled." ~ Plutarch

[Valus]

i dunno why it says i have that many posts. weird.
i've only posted about half a dozen times so far.

[Gem]

Have you read Sosan's "Book Of Nothing"?

I love it, but I always feel like he's winking at me.

Giving me this obscure, half-conscious glimpse
into the "Buddha Mind", all paradox and subtlety...

But as if to say, "This is not something
which you can understand or play with,
or put to any use at all."

Touch the Buddha Mind,
then go back to being human.

Like that.

But I don't know.




"The mind is not a vessel to be filled,
but a fire to be kindled." ~ Plutarch

I hadn't heard of that book before, so I googled is and read some and .... me likes.

Man has opinions and preferences but these only lie in context, eg one prefers ice cream to eat over manure, but prefers manure to ice cream as garden mulch... so opinion can never be true.

Another quote from the book of nothing which I liked:

'There is a going beyond appearance and emptiness.' Sosan

[Deusdrum]

Valus - i'm not trying to tell you anything, hey, it's your life, but i think you may be spending too much time on these forums. Over 4 billion posts? Come on man, do you do anything else at all? Ive seen a few with a thousand, 10 thousand maybe, but over 4 billion? Come to think of it, it's surprising i haven't seen you on here before. There are quite a few subforums, but you'd think i'd have run into you. Maybe you spend a lot of time in general beliefs section. Don't go there that much myself. And it says you've only been here since this November.. this is november. That's like hundreds of millions of posts a day. I mean, i like this place too and everything but.. How do you sleep? I'm trying to do the math on this, and it isn't adding up. You must be an amazing typist, with a ton of ideas and a lot of things on to say. Are you an author by any chance?

[NightSpirit]

Am I right in thinking your suggesting, Gem, that to name a thing takes away its infinity and places it into a manifestation? ......as written in the Tao below....

The Tao that can be spoken of
Is not the Everlasting Tao
The name that can be named
Is not the Everlasting name
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth
The named is the mother of ten thousand things
Therefore, ever desireless
One can observe the hidden mystery;
Ever desiring
One can observe the manifestations.
These two issue from the same origin,
Though named differently.
Both are called the dark.
Dark and even darker,
The door to all hidden mysteries.

[Gem]

Am I right in thinking your suggesting, Gem, that to name a thing takes away its infinity and places it into a manifestation? ......as written in the Tao below....

The Tao that can be spoken of
Is not the Everlasting Tao
The name that can be named
Is not the Everlasting name
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth
The named is the mother of ten thousand things
Therefore, ever desireless
One can observe the hidden mystery;
Ever desiring
One can observe the manifestations.
These two issue from the same origin,
Though named differently.
Both are called the dark.
Dark and even darker,
The door to all hidden mysteries.




I like the Tao passage but don't see a problem naming things... Naming what isn't a thing is kinda futile, but emptiness is a formlessness, so the name emptiness is no problemo... It can be described.

I saw different emptiness's one like black velvet another one total pitch blackness, and there's no colour reference in another, there is no sameness, but it's 'constant'.

I deleted what I wrote next... and I prefer to just mention... there's prior to, more fundamental than... it's nameless, but profound.

In life... love everything, as a person or in every way, it is our true nature.

Have integrity... if one has integrity he can only admit he sees everything equally and through loving eyes.

[Valus]

lol, Deus

What do you suppose is more likely:

That I'm posting a hundred million times a day,
while you've yet to even spot one of my posts,
OR that this is a glitch in the forum software?

;)

[Deusdrum]

lol, Deus

What do you suppose is more likely:

That I'm posting a hundred million times a day,
while you've yet to even spot one of my posts,
OR that this is a glitch in the forum software?

;)

Hmm, yeah you're right, of course. That is too ridiculous of an amount, it's not even physically possible i bet. What am i thinking lol :rolleyes:

But then.. that can only.. mean one thing.. can it be?

That you are the one the ancients spoke of in the prophecies...

You see, long ago, in the beginning times of Spiritual Forums, it was said that in during a time of our greatest dischord and strife, amidst our darkest hour, that one would come.. who's post count would be wildly inacurate... but you are so young... though i sense a great threading power in you...

could it be true?

[Deusdrum]

Hmm, yeah you're right, of course. That is too ridiculous of an amount, it's not even physically possible i bet. What am i thinking lol :rolleyes:

But then.. that can only.. mean one thing.. can it be?

That you are the one the ancients spoke of in the prophecies...

You see, long ago, in the beginning times of Spiritual Forums, it was said that in during a time of our greatest dischord and strife, amidst our darkest hour, that one would come.. who's post count would be wildly inacurate... but you are so young... though i sense a great threading power in you...

could it be true?
Pffft! Deusdrum. Please! This noob is but a newcomer to the forums! It is as he says, a simple malfunction of software. He knows not our ways or customs, he couldn't possible be the chosen one! His threading is clumsy and remedial at best!

Stop filling your head with foolish dreams, Go back to your place in the music subforums, where you belong, and leave grown up things to grown ups!!!

[Deusdrum]

Pffft! Deusdrum. Please! This noob fool is but a newcomer to the forums! It is as he says, a simple malfunction of software. He knows not our ways or customs, he couldn't possible be the chosen one! His threading is clumsy and remedial at best!

Stop filling your head with foolish dreams! Go back to your place in the music subforums, where you belong, and leave grown up things to grown ups!!!
Nevermind my other self Valus. I believe in you. He means well, he is only protective of the community and wary of new posters.

Anywhoo, welcome to SF. Hope you enjoy it here. :smile:

Don't take me too seriously, i like messin' around a bit here and there for kicks. That post count was a gift from the Good Spirits of SF, or else some trickster spirits in the system or someone with computer programming skills is playing around, whatever the case, i am thankful. I couldn't resist. Please forgive me.

[Gem]

It's a real mystery.... that post count.... never seen anything like it. It really is a 'lucky number'.

[Valus]

No worries, Deus. "Both of you" made me smile. :)

I had a similar grandiose notion myself. My first thread was deleted because I spoke of something too controversial for this site. Then, next time I posted, I had this insane post count. I thought, "Hmm... Maybe the guardian spirits of the forum wanted to send a message, like, 'The wisdom you are silencing is at the very crux of the matter. This is an extremely old soul who is bringing lost (and recovered) wisdom back from the shadows of prehistory. The very wisdom which may be most capable of saving our planet, and catalyzing the spiritual evolution of the entire species.'"

Of course, then the other side of me said, "Get over yourself,".

Still, I think it's an injustice that this subject is excluded. I'd love to tell you more about it, but it's verboten (as it has been an object of stigmatization, distortion and ridicule in Western Civilization for more than two thousand years now). Maybe it would be permissible to share the title of a certain book, if not to discuss the matter openly? Or should I burn that book idea? Maybe if you PM me, it would be alright to share it?

Alas, something I feel it is my primary spiritual mission to bring attention to is something this spiritual site refuses to allow me to even discuss. I feel it is a great loss for the community. (In fact, now I'm wondering if it is even permissible for me to mention the deletion. Yikes!) Still, I can accept the rules. This is a wonderful site, with so many interesting people with so much to offer. And I myself have more to offer than just my primary mission (or what I believe is my primary mission).

Take Care

[Deusdrum]

hmm. you've got me curious, cautious, and somewhat titilated chosen one. Please do pm me a book title. Can you mention at all, briefly what it pertains to? It isn't some lovecraftian thing is it? Not so much interested if that is the case..

I myself suffer from the hero martyr complex from time to time.

In the meanwhile, may i introduce you to by far the finest smiley this site has to offer. It works for me in many ways, in a wide variety of situations.

He has great wisdom and knowledge, and is an all round good guy.

:happy3:

P.E.A.C.E. ~

[NightSpirit]

lol, Deus

What do you suppose is more likely:

That I'm posting a hundred million times a day,
while you've yet to even spot one of my posts,
OR that this is a glitch in the forum software?

;)

Let me guess...you're an extremely fast typist with lots to say! :D

[Gem]

Infinity is a value which is quantified as itself. It has no size or shape or any form at all, but it is itself, the same quantity as it is.

It is as it is, it's itself.

It's the principle of geometry. Of two. The difference between two is infinite, yet there is no differentiation of two, there can't be, two offers no definition as the comparison of two is onlyone differential, so they are the same definition, different.

In which way they differ or by how much, there is no way of knowing, it isn't some 'thing' to know... it's only to know the principle, which is formless because thought does not entail it.

Not a big mystery, very very simple. Like happiness is formless but you know what happiness is, infinity is formless but the principle is simple... like happiness is formless and simple.

[Valus]

You have mail, Deus.

No, nothing sinister or quite macabre.

A charming smiley, to be sure!

God Speed,
V