The Truth

[Gem]

Many ascribe to the ultimate truth, which objectifies something which is true, but it is also said that it it known by direct experience, so it is actually subjective.

Some will question if there is existence or not, if it's an illusion and so on, but illusion means it only exists as a thought, so does a thought, in fact, exist at all? Maybe, maybe not. Thoughts are perceived, no doubt about that.

We now make a catagory: "The Percieved"; it forces us to take an observer perspective, the witness. All 'Perceived Things' changing under constant witnessing.

It follows that one can know True Self by perceiving the witness, but be my guest, attempt to find it, it's like trying to see your own eye.

Ok. people are all about God, The Source, Unconditional Love, Ultimate Truth, The Final Goal and so on, and then this method, that religion and that tequnique will take you there... but he who seeks is the one seeking; not the one sought, or are they seeking other than themself? Finding 'The Truth or God or Enlightenment' and persuing figments of the imagination?

[chadley]

Many ascribe to the ultimate truth, which objectifies something which is true, but it is also said that it it known by direct experience, so it is actually subjective.


The individuated or personal experience of the external world where all is separate is subjective and isolated to the experiencer’s perception.

The personal experience of the internal substance of spirit, or “God-self” reveals the unified source of all creation, or “God” or whatever you want to call it. When you experience this state of being, separation dissolves and the universal truth for all is revealed. The experiencer then becomes realized that the truth for you is the truth for me because our inner essence is made of the same “stuff”. You and I are one, we are the same.


It follows that one can know True Self by perceiving the witness, but be my guest, attempt to find it, it's like trying to see your own eye.


Seeing your own eye is not as difficult as it may seem when you realize that the internal essence, your inner witness observes the mind’s eye and recognizes it as something that is not the totality of who you are. Just as your mind can watch your body’s involuntary reflexes when your knee is tapped, so can your spirit witness the mind’s conditioning play itself out in never ending cycles. You are not your mind. Therefore, you, the spiritual witness, watches the mind’s self constructed identity, which is not you.

Interestingly, even the mind can observe itself. You can observe destructive patterns of repetitious thoughts, for example, such as “I’m not good enough”. But this will not bring you any closer to spiritual awareness because you are still operating from the mind. It is the very process of mind identification, or operating from the mind that cloud and prevents spiritual realization.


Ok. people are all about God, The Source, Unconditional Love, Ultimate Truth, The Final Goal and so on, and then this method, that religion and that tequnique will take you there... but he who seeks is the one seeking; not the one sought, or are they seeking other than themself? Finding 'The Truth or God or Enlightenment' and persuing figments of the imagination?



These questions become irrelevant when you discover that your mind, the architect of your imagination is not you. It doesn’t matter whether you perceive it as real or illusory, it is still all a mind composition. Experience from the awareness of spirit and you won’t care what the mind does, let it imagine and create all it wants. It no longer controls you, you control it. As such, you do not rely on it, you do not need it and therefore become unaffected by any interpretation or perception that it makes.

[God-Like]

What does truth relate to? It has to relate to something . What is that something? It could be anything? From where has that something derived?

I am still leaning towards that everything that is labelled is not what it is so when one applies truth to that then truth also isn't what it is also . In other words truth is made up like everything else .

x daz x

[chadley]

What does truth relate to? It has to relate to something .
x daz x

Why? If truth is the absolute foundation, than everything must relate to it.

[God-Like]

Why? If truth is the absolute foundation, than everything must relate to it.

And in this instance chadley the truth has been related too .. by saying / suggesting that ..

If truth is the absolute foundation, than everything must relate to it.

without the suggestion there is no truth of anything even this ..

x daz x

[chadley]

And in this instance chadley the truth has been related too .. by saying / suggesting that ..

If truth is the absolute foundation, than everything must relate to it.

without the suggestion there is no truth of anything even this ..

x daz x

The truth exists before thought, therefore suggestion is not a requisite, there is no requisite.

What you say is true only if thought is all there is.

This is really the crux of my disagreement with the OP. If we are our mind, if we think therefore we are, then yes, what the OP says makes sense, it is on point.

What I have discovered is that there is an element to our being that lies before and beyond the mind. You don't have to believe me, you may think I'm mad or silly, but you can understand that this is the route of our disagreement. Once you do, you'll realize that your argument does not apply if the reality I describe exists.

[God-Like]

The truth exists before thought, therefore suggestion is not a requisite, there is no requisite.

What you say is true only if thought is all there is.

This is really the crux of my disagreement with the OP. If we are our mind, if we think therefore we are, then yes, what the OP says makes sense, it is on point.

What I have discovered is that there is an element to our being that lies before and beyond the mind. You don't have to believe me, you may think I'm mad or silly, but you can understand that this is the route of our disagreement. Once you do, you'll realize that your argument does not apply if the reality I describe exists.

Hi Chadley ..

The truth of 'that there is an element to our being beyond mind' is concluded within mind . It is evaluated that any such truth relates to a self . Beyond mind there is no self for truth to be known .

Truth is a concept of the mind .. How could truth exist beyond mind . There is no thought that I exist beyond mind .. For truth to exist beyond mind leaves room for there to be untruths .. There is nothing beyond mind and not even that ..

I agree however that there is something that relates to what we are beyond mind but any relating to what that is will be mindful ..

x daz x

[chadley]

Hi God-like,

Hi Chadley ..

The truth of 'that there is an element to our being beyond mind' is concluded within mind .



Therein lies our disagreement. It may be observed by the mind, but there need not be a conclusion.
Because you do not see it possible to observe with anything but the mind or yourself, you conclude that it is therefore impossible for anyone to witness from any other form or state of consciousness.



Truth is a concept of the mind .. How could truth exist beyond mind . There is no thought that I exist beyond mind ..

x daz x

Truth is a concept to the mind. To your inner being, or your spirit truth is a realization, an experience, a merging with your consciousness.

You believe that truth is a thought only. The divine truth is energy consciousness, it is the substance of spirit.

In the human world of separation, thoughts and objects are interpreted to be two separate things. It might not occur to you that your thoughts are composed of energy consciousness no different than the rock on the ground or the blister on your foot. The human mind perceives them as completely different and they then appear as such in the physical world.

In the spiritual reality, energy consciousness is composed of thought, emotion, experience and substance. When you experience from a state of consciousness where this is realized, you become aware of the constant interaction and exchange that takes place between your energy consciousness and that of all things, all forms, all life both organic and inorganic. You are no longer closed off to your mind’s narrow vision of your reality.

You ask how con truth exist beyond the mind? Your question is paradoxical because you ask it with the mind. You cannot discover what is beyond the mind with your mind. If you try and use the mind to discern spiritual truth it will always fail.

This is why many teachers suggest to practice exercises that will still the mind. So that you may experience from another dimension of your being that does not think.

[Moonglow]

Hello,

This discussion brings some questions.

How does one become aware or realize that which one may observe to be "beyond"/not of the mind, without the connection to the mind to notice it?

For even after the observation, does it not then get "filtered" by the mind in order to "know" it? (at least while being this physical being).
Isn't more a shifting in thought?

Is what one finds to be true any less a truth then that which another may say is not or say is otherwise?

If the moments change and shift (as they seem to do to me) then is truth only held in the moment?

It is just some wondering I am having at the moment.

[chadley]

Hi Moonglow, great questions.

For even after the observation, does it not then get "filtered" by the mind in order to "know" it? (at least while being this physical being).
Is what one finds to be true any less a truth then that which another may say is not or say is otherwise?

As we are all imperfect, so will our interpretation of internal experience be imperfect and tainted according to our mind’s perception.

Isn't more a shifting in thought?
No, it is a shifting away from thought and towards the awareness of your inner awareness which thinks nothing, says nothing.


If the moments change and shift (as they seem to do to me) then is truth only held in the moment?

Yes, past and future do not exist, only reference to past & future events and conditioning exists. Therefore the present moment is the only place truth can live.

How does one become aware or realize that which one may observe to be "beyond"/not of the mind, without the connection to the mind to notice it?

Until you bring awareness to the spiritual aspect of self that transcends mind, it will seem impossible eliminate your mind from the equation. But it is possible, and worth the effort.

You asked how to do it. There are myriad’s of ways. It is not the action itself that will lead you there, but shift of awareness to your internal spirit that happens when you slowly move your focus away from the mind, the physical reality and/or time (past and future).

Let me give you a few examples of possible paths to take. The most obvious is well known, it is meditation, of course. But mediation is simply another action that you take. Let me give you some other examples so that you can see the underlying thread. It is the discovery of this underlying thread that will trigger the most awakening.

I will give you a couple of examples of completely unrelated practices.

Example 1:Martial arts- You may be drawn towards martial arts to practice the art of self defense. You initial intention, if it is similar to most of the world, is to protect or defend yourself. You may feel that you need protecting. This belief accompanies a certain state of consciousness, or vibration.

Most martial arts students will continue on with this intention with varying levels of success. They may gain confidence or even accolades in completion.

A small few will instead fall in love with the art itself, they will see the beauty in the movement and cultural history within the style. They begin not to care what color belt they hold or if they can best their opponent. Instead, they may connect to the movement and the discipline.

Fewer still will reach a different experience with it. The may be drawn to the inner martial arts. They will connect to their inner “chi” and derive a great sense of peace from it. After years of practice, a shift occurs within from that of the philosophical understanding of the movement to the experiential awareness of the movement. They feel, or experience the chi movement, they connect to the Tan Tien in the core of the stomach. This shift is an example of an awakening.

Expand your awareness with Martial Arts and you may experience your true essence within.

Example 2: Sex- For the masses, sex is predominantly a physical and sometimes emotional connection between two individuals. It is the physical representation of the merging of duality into unity. Some are able to experience a greater level of pleasure with sex then others. A small few connect with their mind, body, emotions and heart when they have sex and could be referred to as making love. Fewer still transcend the physical experience only and make a connection beyond that of pleasure into the realm of ecstasy.

Even beyond that there are the mystical experiences of tantric sex and achieve awakening through it.

Expand your awareness with sex and you may experience your true essence within.

Do you see the common thread? What you do is not as relevant as the state of consciousness by which you do it.

How much thinking is going on during these processes? Would you expect that as your consciousness expands and your experience deepens that your mind becomes more quiet? If so, you would be correct.

Do you think that you can think your way to these experiences? Do you really believe that complex intellectual analysis will lead you to the discoveries in the above examples?

[Moonglow]

Hi Moonglow, great questions.



As we are all imperfect, so will our interpretation of internal experience be imperfect and tainted according to our mind’s perception.


No, it is a shifting away from thought and towards the awareness of your inner awareness which thinks nothing, says nothing.




Yes, past and future do not exist, only reference to past & future events and conditioning exists. Therefore the present moment is the only place truth can live.



Until you bring awareness to the spiritual aspect of self that transcends mind, it will seem impossible eliminate your mind from the equation. But it is possible, and worth the effort.

You asked how to do it. There are myriad’s of ways. It is not the action itself that will lead you there, but shift of awareness to your internal spirit that happens when you slowly move your focus away from the mind, the physical reality and/or time (past and future).

Let me give you a few examples of possible paths to take. The most obvious is well known, it is meditation, of course. But mediation is simply another action that you take. Let me give you some other examples so that you can see the underlying thread. It is the discovery of this underlying thread that will trigger the most awakening.

I will give you a couple of examples of completely unrelated practices.

Example 1:Martial arts- You may be drawn towards martial arts to practice the art of self defense. You initial intention, if it is similar to most of the world, is to protect or defend yourself. You may feel that you need protecting. This belief accompanies a certain state of consciousness, or vibration.

Most martial arts students will continue on with this intention with varying levels of success. They may gain confidence or even accolades in completion.

A small few will instead fall in love with the art itself, they will see the beauty in the movement and cultural history within the style. They begin not to care what color belt they hold or if they can best their opponent. Instead, they may connect to the movement and the discipline.

Fewer still will reach a different experience with it. The may be drawn to the inner martial arts. They will connect to their inner “chi” and derive a great sense of peace from it. After years of practice, a shift occurs within from that of the philosophical understanding of the movement to the experiential awareness of the movement. They feel, or experience the chi movement, they connect to the Tan Tien in the core of the stomach. This shift is an example of an awakening.

Expand your awareness with Martial Arts and you may experience your true essence within.

Example 2: Sex- For the masses, sex is predominantly a physical and sometimes emotional connection between two individuals. It is the physical representation of the merging of duality into unity. Some are able to experience a greater level of pleasure with sex then others. A small few connect with their mind, body, emotions and heart when they have sex and could be referred to as making love. Fewer still transcend the physical experience only and make a connection beyond that of pleasure into the realm of ecstasy.

Even beyond that there are the mystical experiences of tantric sex and achieve awakening through it.

Expand your awareness with sex and you may experience your true essence within.

Do you see the common thread? What you do is not as relevant as the state of consciousness by which you do it.

How much thinking is going on during these processes? Would you expect that as your consciousness expands and your experience deepens that your mind becomes more quiet? If so, you would be correct.

Do you think that you can think your way to these experiences? Do you really believe that complex intellectual analysis will lead you to the discoveries in the above examples?

Hi chadley,

Thank you for your insight and the information. It gives me a better understanding.

Now I may be a bit of "layman" as to practices of spiritual nature.
I look at things in what life has and brings to me.

I can understand the quieting of the mind in the sense of quieting the noise of attempting to analyze and theorize things. Just being (so to speak).:smile:

What comes to me though is that there still seems to be a connection to the mind in order for one to be conscious.(aware)

But the thinking takes on a different feel (so to speak). It recognizes that it is observing and/or experiencing, but there seems to be no need to analyze. It seems to be more of allowing or openness happens.

So, it gets integrated. Meaning it is seen or felt more like it is occurring and I just so happen to be of this as well. Still there is thinking going on, in the sense that I am aware of this, as well as, that which is just happening without my awareness.

Yes, this may seem to be a "physical" way of looking at it, suppose. But I see nothing being not of Life, which is of the spirit/energy/mystery.

So, looking at How much is all this just thought? (which I think may be some of what Gem perhaps is inquiring) At the moment seems to be thought can be refocused or directed to be used in a way one has not been taught or is accustomed to.(expanded)

For me it is not the thought so much as it is holding onto the thought or trying to have the moment stand still.

Well, it is how I am looking at this at the moment.

[chadley]

Hi chadley,

Thank you for your insight and the information. It gives me a better understanding.

Now I may be a bit of "layman" as to practices of spiritual nature.
I look at things in what life has and brings to me.

I can understand the quieting of the mind in the sense of quieting the noise of attempting to analyze and theorize things. Just being (so to speak).:smile:

What comes to me though is that there still seems to be a connection to the mind in order for one to be conscious.(aware)

But the thinking takes on a different feel (so to speak). It recognizes that it is observing and/or experiencing, but there seems to be no need to analyze. It seems to be more of allowing or openness happens.

So, it gets integrated. Meaning it is seen or felt more like it is occurring and I just so happen to be of this as well. Still there is thinking going on, in the sense that I am aware of this, as well as, that which is just happening without my awareness.

Yes, this may seem to be a "physical" way of looking at it, suppose. But I see nothing being not of Life, which is of the spirit/energy/mystery.

So, looking at How much is all this just thought? (which I think may be some of what Gem perhaps is inquiring) At the moment seems to be thought can be refocused or directed to be used in a way one has not been taught or is accustomed to.(expanded)

For me it is not the thought so much as it is holding onto the thought or trying to have the moment stand still.

Well, it is how I am looking at this at the moment.

Yes, I'm not saying you discard the mind all together, but in order to discover your inner awareness, the mind must be only a tool, a small part of your consciousness. This way the mind does not control you and you benefit from the realization and spiritual energy from your spiritual nature.

Integration is the key, but the first step is to dethrone the mind from its dominating presence in your perception of reality. Incorporating the mind, or integrating it is really then quite easy.

[blackraven]

chadley and Moonglow - I'm joining in on the discussion late, but just wanted to add that we exist in the unconscious first and foremost before ever reaching the conscious. The mind is very powerful indeed, but there is always more at play outside of the mind's awareness.

Blackraven

[God-Like]

Therein lies our disagreement. It may be observed by the mind, but there need not be a conclusion.
Because you do not see it possible to observe with anything but the mind or yourself, you conclude that it is therefore impossible for anyone to witness from any other form or state of consciousness.



Hi Chadley .

There are a lot of assumptions there chad .. I have been aware of many things, and one can label them ‘self’ ‘no self’ ‘mind’ and ‘beyond ‘mind’ but at the end of the day they are all labels that are not pointing to ‘what it is’ . I can say I have been aware of a ‘no self but through evaluation of the mind none this will be correct .. Its not even awareness of ‘I’ . It is not even ‘I’ that perceives .. It is only what we are that does and its not even that .. ‘What we are’ is just pointing to ‘what we are’ and ‘what we are’ has no bearing on ‘what that is’ ..

Truth is a concept to the mind. To your inner being, or your spirit truth is a realization, an experience, a merging with your consciousness.




I have been down this route chadley and I can relate to the words that you say .. from another perspective this ‘inner being’ this ‘spirit truth’ this ‘consciousness ‘ are all concepts within mind that relates to a self identity .. The identity of self is a concept where one has labelled ‘what we are’ too . So from then on one has attributed more labels to that self by associating an Inner self or a higher self and one aspect that merges with another aspect and so forth ..


You believe that truth is a thought only. The divine truth is energy consciousness, it is the substance of spirit.



Anything divine is made up in order to relate to something supposedly divine . Its oozes divide and separation from something that is supposedly not divine .. What we are is indescribable until one relates in mind to what that is .. I can say all day long that ‘all is love’, I have said it many times and I can relate to why I can and do say that but thats just my Identity making sence of ‘what I am’ that is of the mind .

You cannot discover what is beyond the mind with your mind.




I agree with this chadley .. and one can only conclude that there is a beyond mind 'within mind' and by someone that can conclude .


x daz x

[God-Like]

How does one become aware or realize that which one may observe to be "beyond"/not of the mind, without the connection to the mind to notice it?


Hi Moonglow .

The moment one is aware of beyond self and beyond mind one will be of the mind and be of self .

There is no one to be aware of beyond ..

x daz x

[Gem]

It could be said that that awareness of beyond mind means that 'who you really are' must be beyond beyond mind.

There is also those who say that being 'the observer of the mind' creates a separation between the observer and the observed. I find if I try to find the mind, there's nothing there.

When I observe the rose, am I not the observer and the rose is the observed?, some 'masters' say yes, I am not the rose... neti neti, and other 'masters' say no, you and the rose are one.

[chadley]

Hi God, thank you for taking the time to respond.


There are a lot of assumptions there chad ..

Yes, I did make a lot of assumptions because you really didn’t give me enough to go on. Sorry about that, but you made a short statement on a big subject with little explanation. So, I probed with assumption a little, I hope you’ll forgive me.


I have been aware of many things, and one can label them ‘self’ ‘no self’ ‘mind’ and ‘beyond ‘mind’ but at the end of the day they are all labels that are not pointing to ‘what it is’ .

Why does it not point to ‘what is’? By what evidence do you draw this conclusion? On a forum, where we write and read, we are dependent upon labels, words and thoughts. It has been my observation that there can be a recognition of ‘what it is’ by the using the words to point with. If the labels do not point to ‘what it is’ then what does?


. I can say I have been aware of a ‘no self but through evaluation of the mind none this will be correct .. Its not even awareness of ‘I’ . It is not even ‘I’ that perceives .. It is only what we are that does and its not even that .. ‘What we are’ is just pointing to ‘what we are’ and ‘what we are’ has no bearing on ‘what that is’ .
‘what we are’ is ‘what that is’ and therefore they have absolutely everything do with eachother*
*incidentally, the above sentence has a totally different meaning if you use urbandictionary.com, lol. Either way one sounds ridiculous saying it.

I have been down this route chadley and I can relate to the words that you say .. from another perspective this ‘inner being’ this ‘spirit truth’ this ‘consciousness ‘ are all concepts within mind that relates to a self identity ..
This is true for those who have only developed the concept and have not realized it internally. If so, they try and develop the concept to create or further define their self identify. They incorporate the concept into their philosophy. However, whether or not you have created a concept or not, once you have opened your awareness to the no-self, you simply use the words to point to it.
Even though any attempt to verbally point to the no-self or inner consciousness is useless to the mind, it is not useless to the being. Meaning, since you can witness with not just the mind, but also with inner consciousness, what is meaningless to the mind is recognized by one’s consciousness on some level no matter how far in the background. Enlightenment slowly emerges; the inner consciousness becomes more and more present in your awareness. As this occurs, the opposite of the creation of a self identity happens. Instead, the identity is released and surrendered. It may still be there, but you are not operating from the identity. The identity is not running you and you do not think you are it.

The identity of self is a concept where one has labelled ‘what we are’ too . So from then on one has attributed more labels to that self by associating an Inner self or a higher self and one aspect that merges with another aspect and so forth ..

Or, the inner self is revealed when one surrender’s their identification with the labels. Because the “inner self” is a label does not negate the existence of what it points to. On a forum such as this, it has to be referred to somehow. To label something does not make that something an illusion or a concept. Rather, it is the identification with the label that contributes to the structure of the concept.

Anything divine is made up in order to relate to something supposedly divine . Its oozes divide and separation from something that is supposedly not divine .. What we are is indescribable until one relates in mind to what that is .. I can say all day long that ‘all is love’, I have said it many times and I can relate to why I can and do say that but thats just my Identity making sence of ‘what I am’ that is of the mind .

Of course, because the part of us that lives in absolute love does not use the mind to communicate. There is no need for my love to communicate with another’s love because it’s the same stuff. Also, I haven’t figured out how to change my font to universal consciousness yet. Until then, I’ll use words.

[chadley]

It could be said that that awareness of beyond mind means that 'who you really are' must be beyond beyond mind.
Lol, sure or it might make more sense to say that it is beyond mind only. In other words, you are not your mind only, it is only a small part of your consciousness. By using only the mind you limit yourself to what the mind is capable of comprehending. By adding your inner awareness you add a new dimension to being.

There is also those who say that being 'the observer of the mind' creates a separation between the observer and the observed. I find if I try to find the mind, there's nothing there.
How can you not find the mind? It is the loudest most obnoxious noisemaker in the universe. I’m referring to “thinking” of course. The mind is constantly talking and triggering emotion.

When I observe the rose, am I not the observer and the rose is the observed?, some 'masters' say yes, I am not the rose... neti neti, and other 'masters' say no, you and the rose are one.
Both are true, actually. From the perspective of mind, or separation you are not the rose. From the place of god realization, you observe the rose not as a rose but an object composed of the same “stuff” or energy that you are. Nor do you observe you as a separate self

[God-Like]

Yes, I did make a lot of assumptions because you really didn’t give me enough to go on. Sorry about that, but you made a short statement on a big subject with little explanation. So, I probed with assumption a little, I hope you’ll forgive me.



No Probs .. I like the feel of your energy chadley ..

I went through a phase where I could and did at times get involved in lengthy threads and I could get right in to the nitty gritty bits of it all .. I kinda like to keep it a bit shorter and sweeter now lol . Perhaps the same outcome happens whether it becomes a novel or a short story ..



Why does it not point to ‘what is’? By what evidence do you draw this conclusion? On a forum, where we write and read, we are dependent upon labels, words and thoughts. It has been my observation that there can be a recognition of ‘what it is’ by the using the words to point with. If the labels do not point to ‘what it is’ then what does?



The Greeks called a God Athena, the Romans Minerva, The Celts Brigid .. At one point certain guides would lead me on a merry dance researching ‘labels/words’ given . They would all lead back to the same thing . Everything is sameness, Everything is clay that is molded into something that one can give a name too .

If I understand that the labels are not pointing to 'what is' from one perspective then I understand that 'sameness' doesn’t point to 'what is' thats at the so called heart of anything . And Yep I did it again cos there is ‘no heart of anything’ tis just what we 'make it' and then 'relate to it' .

We have created a system of sorts within mind .

‘what we are’ is ‘what that is’ and therefore they have absolutely everything do with eachother*
*incidentally, the above sentence has a totally different meaning if you use urbandictionary.com, lol. Either way one sounds ridiculous saying it.




It only sounds ridiculous if one makes sense of that and then relates to that sense . The intellectual mind needs satifaction . It needs to make sense of one’s mindful relationship in some shape or form . What we are has no words to describe what that is . If one relates to I am the flesh or I am spirit or consciousness, that would be no nearer what that is .. Consciousness is a word nothing more . .. Many can relate to being conscious because one has made sense of the word and the relationship of the word had with self . We understand ‘Self’ as a word and we can merge the two tegether and relate to a conscious self .

Beyond mind there is no ‘I’ there is no universe there is no conscious self .. There is nothing, No-one to relate anything too . Only in mind can one attribute labels to the experience . Beyond mind there is no experiencer .


This is true for those who have only developed the concept and have not realized it internally. If so, they try and develop the concept to create or further define their self identify. They incorporate the concept into their philosophy. However, whether or not you have created a concept or not, once you have opened your awareness to the no-self, you simply use the words to point to it.


All labels are pointers and when one mentions the sun we all look up .. But the sun label is not pointing to what it is, its just a reference point . If we relate to a ‘no self’ then we can relate to a ‘no sun’ . So after that realization what are we then relating to ‘the sun’ or to the ‘self’ .

So what are we actually pointing at? Something that perhaps relates to something that it isn’t, but we point to something because we have been conditioned by the meaning one has attributed to the labels in order for everything to make sense .

Beyond mind is beyond sense . Beyond Self is beyond sense .



Or, the inner self is revealed when one surrender’s their identification with the labels. Because the “inner self” is a label does not negate the existence of what it points to. On a forum such as this, it has to be referred to somehow. To label something does not make that something an illusion or a concept. Rather, it is the identification with the label that contributes to the structure of the concept.



Once the ‘no self realization’ kicks in within the mind there is no Inner self but one can relate that to an aspect of the self and the self being a benchmark for one’s existence .

There is a process that seemingly reveals aspects of self until there is no self .. but from one perspective there is only what you are .. the mind is fragmented in such a way where there seems to be a higher self or an Inner self in the same way where one has constructed a building and divided off the floor levels and divided rooms into bedrooms and the bathrooms . When I want a pee I go to what is labelled the bathroom unless I am ****ed :) .

In the open space there are no buildings / constructs of the mind, No departments, No fragments . . and one can pee where they like :) .


x daz x

[Gem]

Lol, sure or it might make more sense to say that it is beyond mind only. In other words, you are not your mind only, it is only a small part of your consciousness. By using only the mind you limit yourself to what the mind is capable of comprehending. By adding your inner awareness you add a new dimension to being.

I guess awareness is prior because all perception relies on awareness.

How can you not find the mind? It is the loudest most obnoxious noisemaker in the universe. I’m referring to “thinking” of course. The mind is constantly talking and triggering emotion.

Sure I notice the thoughts and the abilities such as focus and concentration and conscious perception, imagination and so on, so maybe people take the collection of all these things and assume there is a mind that posesses these, but has anyone actually seen this thing they call mind?

Both are true, actually. From the perspective of mind, or separation you are not the rose. From the place of god realization, you observe the rose not as a rose but an object composed of the same “stuff” or energy that you are. Nor do you observe you as a separate self

[Nameless]

We here in the physical have no choice but to percieve truth through our senses. So each and every one of us has different percievers, so have different truths.

I was raised Catholic, somewhat. I was taken to church dutifully, made my first communion, had to figure out something I had done wrong so I could confess (really, what 6 year old knows anything about that?) but the thing that I remember most about being Catholic was the feeling of the church, and that Jesus lived there, and the feeling of the devil, and that he would get me if I did something wrong, for which there were lists of things not to do wrong.

When I no longer believed in the devil, my truth changed. It didn't change for any Catholic or Christian that still believes in a devil, just my truth changed.

I can only ever change my truth.

I no longer believe that Jesus lives in the church I "grew up" in, but whenever I go back there (weddings, funerals) I still feel him there as a loving energy. I can feel him as this loving energy in my livingroom as well, so I don't have to go to church to find him, if I am looking for him to have a chat. So my truth changed from having to go through someone or something to get to talk to Jesus, I can talk to him without all that. My truth changed.

I think my life is about finding these truths that I have been "gifted" by something outside of myself, and questioning those, to see if they still fit, like an old overcoat. My truth is changing constantly, but it is still only my truth that changes. I do not have the might or power to change anyone else's (and I certainly wouldn't want that either).

So, life is this grand journey, where we get to decide what our own truths are.

Is there Universal truth? I don't know. I'm sure we'll all find out when we croak :)

[psychoslice]

Truth isn't something to be found, its life, its you, its all there is, we never came here to wast our life trying to find truth, we are here to enjoy our life, be it good or bad. It is only those who don't know how to live that try to find this truth. Live life to its fullness and you will forget about truth.

[Moonglow]

Hello,

Still yet some more thoughts emerge.:smile:

Is the truth realizing what may be realized or felt to be the "common" element that seems to flow or be in all and connects us to them?

Or is truth found in how one may interact with things and through this find realizations and perhaps expand understanding?

Both hold truth?

Is there a universal truth or set of laws one should or needs to follow in order to maintain in synch or (if preferred) balance with life?

These questions I ask because there seems to me that truths are found in these.

We share (on a physical level) common elements, particles, molecules, and energy.

Through interaction it can be shown what is beneficial and what may be harmful. It can also expand ones compassion and understanding towards other beings.

There seems to me an agreement or "law" in nature to not take more then what one needs. When one does the resource runs out or harm is done to another.

So ask the above questions. Looking at not so individual truths one may have or find, but truths that may apply to all.

[Seawolf]

Many ascribe to the ultimate truth, which objectifies something which is true, but it is also said that it it known by direct experience, so it is actually subjective.

Some will question if there is existence or not, if it's an illusion and so on, but illusion means it only exists as a thought, so does a thought, in fact, exist at all? Maybe, maybe not. Thoughts are perceived, no doubt about that.

We now make a catagory: "The Percieved"; it forces us to take an observer perspective, the witness. All 'Perceived Things' changing under constant witnessing.

It follows that one can know True Self by perceiving the witness, but be my guest, attempt to find it, it's like trying to see your own eye.

Ok. people are all about God, The Source, Unconditional Love, Ultimate Truth, The Final Goal and so on, and then this method, that religion and that tequnique will take you there... but he who seeks is the one seeking; not the one sought, or are they seeking other than themself? Finding 'The Truth or God or Enlightenment' and persuing figments of the imagination?
I barely know myself, much less anything else. I imagine thoughts exist and have some kind of substance or meaning beyond the obvious in some other dimension. :icon_bigsmurf:

Finding God or the Truth or True selF doesn't mean everything automatically changes. People rarely have a significant transformation of their temperament. If it shows in real life that's what I see more as truth.

[Gem]

I just think that the truth is honesty, so I don't want to harp about ultimate things, and sometimes the truth is what actually happened, and thats not a perspective, it's a fact. Sometimes spiritual stuff want to make everything ambiguous, so we call our belief 'my truth'. The truth can't be personalized, like I have a 50c coin in my pocket and that's true... it doesn't matter what you believe.

Like ok I just believe there's 20 bucks and some LOA makes it true? Nope, but sometimes I put a hand in and it's like 'hey 20 bucks'!... so the truth is also to see what is, instead of pretending a theory or a sunday school lesson, hearsay or the gossip at the hairdressers can become 'truth' just coz I believe it.

[Seawolf]

I just think that the truth is honesty, so I don't want to harp about ultimate things, and sometimes the truth is what actually happened, and thats not a perspective, it's a fact. Sometimes spiritual stuff want to make everything ambiguous, so we call our belief 'my truth'. The truth can't be personalized, like I have a 50c coin in my pocket and that's true... it doesn't matter what you believe.

Like ok I just believe there's 20 bucks and some LOA makes it true? Nope, but sometimes I put a hand in and it's like 'hey 20 bucks'!... so the truth is also to see what is, instead of pretending a theory or a sunday school lesson, hearsay or the gossip at the hairdressers can become 'truth' just coz I believe it.
Everyone in history has probably seen their ideas as the pinnacle of spirituality. Just like we tend to see ourselves as the top animals with the top understanding in this time. For some reason we believe we have the ultimate spiritual truth that will never fundamentally change in the future, because this is 'it'. I doubt all that, we're just like everyone else in history, we have certain ideas and they will change over time.

I like what you said about honesty. A person that can know themselves and be honest, and then combine that with a spirituality that gives joy and love for it all.. that's pretty special.

[Gem]

Everyone in history has probably seen their ideas as the pinnacle of spirituality. Just like we tend to see ourselves as the top animals with the top understanding in this time. For some reason we believe we have the ultimate spiritual truth that will never fundamentally change in the future, because this is 'it'. I doubt all that, we're just like everyone else in history, we have certain ideas and they will change over time.

I like what you said about honesty. A person that can know themselves and be honest, and then combine that with a spirituality that gives joy and love for it all.. that's pretty special.

A lot of spiritual life is people trying to change the beliefs of others and there's a lot of tricks that can be used to persuade people into believing one thing ot the other, and I know there's ideals about truth being something to do with belief systems, but who says so, usually the foundation of the belief system is invalid, and the belief system becomes the evidence of the foundation itself.

Lets take a fundamental belief... I believe in God, and the evidence is 'I can't explain the universe, therefore God'... that's a common arguement. The universe becomes the evidence for the foundation, so ultimately, faith has to be completely blind and thats what inner trust is like. I think people want something to trust in, but doesn't kinda defeat the purpose?

[Seawolf]

A lot of spiritual life is people trying to change the beliefs of others and there's a lot of tricks that can be used to persuade people into believing one thing ot the other, and I know there's ideals about truth being something to do with belief systems, but who says so, usually the foundation of the belief system is invalid, and the belief system becomes the evidence of the foundation itself.

Lets take a fundamental belief... I believe in God, and the evidence is 'I can't explain the universe, therefore God'... that's a common arguement. The universe becomes the evidence for the foundation, so ultimately, faith has to be completely blind and thats what inner trust is like. I think people want something to trust in, but doesn't kinda defeat the purpose?
We don't have the answer to fundamental questions like 'why are we here' and 'whats out there' so we have to make things up. From a different perspective, we're using imagination to connect to something that we feel deep inside and that helps us. But we want more security and to feel powerful and in control, so we believe our imagination so much that we kill others who imagine things differently.

[Gem]

We don't have the answer to fundamental questions like 'why are we here' and 'whats out there' so we have to make things up. From a different perspective, we're using imagination to connect to something that we feel deep inside and that helps us. But we want more security and to feel powerful and in control, so we believe our imagination so much that we kill others who imagine things differently.

It's not like there are any answers that explain everything, so there's no Truth like thay want to convince people of in spiritualizm and religion etc, but there is trust, though it's overshadowed by the 'unconditional love' preachings.

It's very much driven by desire and people desire love more than anything; trust isn't really so wiz bang because it doesn't promise wonderful experience... it can be 'valley of death' styled too.

I have invented places in the mind for recluse, inner child sanctum and for loving kindness styled meditations and have complete belief in those imagined spaces, there is actually huge control over what is in those places and who enters them.

The creator is still immensly powerful, but since there's no Truth, there's no reason kill people over my belief, there's actually nothiong there to fight for or defend in that regard.

[Nada]

Many ascribe to the ultimate truth, which objectifies something which is true, but it is also said that it is known by direct experience, so it is actually subjective.


Even the direct experience is not truth.

Here is where I am about the TRUTH.

I discovered even my own truths based on my own unique perceptions from my own direct experiences with my own physical senses were not even the truth after all.

Yeah.. it was a devastating moment when it happened.

So, what is the ultimate truth?
I don't know but I aware of this.
It is so profound that the glimpse of it kills you instantly...

Why?
Because at that moment, you realize that you, yourself, is not even truth.

[Seawolf]

It's not like there are any answers that explain everything, so there's no Truth like thay want to convince people of in spiritualizm and religion etc, but there is trust, though it's overshadowed by the 'unconditional love' preachings.

It's very much driven by desire and people desire love more than anything; trust isn't really so wiz bang because it doesn't promise wonderful experience... it can be 'valley of death' styled too.

I have invented places in the mind for recluse, inner child sanctum and for loving kindness styled meditations and have complete belief in those imagined spaces, there is actually huge control over what is in those places and who enters them.

The creator is still immensly powerful, but since there's no Truth, there's no reason kill people over my belief, there's actually nothiong there to fight for or defend in that regard.
I think it's driven by emotional needs ,and love might be the most fundamental. What in the universe doesn't want love? But that doesn't seem to have much to do with Truth. Truth seems to always end in so much contention. Being secure in Truth may be a way to make up for other basic needs that aren't being met, physical, emotional ..spiritual?

On the other hand.. how can we live without knowing who we and where we come from? Without that we have no basis. We're just floating around with no meaning or purpose. We have to imagine Truth to survive. Life needs to be in a context to have a reason to go on living. Nature abhors a vacuum.

[Gem]

Even the direct experience is not truth.

It's subjective

Here is where I am about the TRUTH.

I discovered even my own truths based on my own unique perceptions from my own direct experiences with my own physical senses were not even the truth after all.

That sounds like there was an experience, but assumptions were made

Yeah.. it was a devastating moment when it happened.

So, what is the ultimate truth?
I don't know but I aware of this.
It is so profound that the glimpse of it kills you instantly...

Why?
Because at that moment, you realize that you, yourself, is not even truth.

Of course you are not the truth. That doesn't even make sense.

[Quagmire]

My Mythology of Nothing say that Nothing is the truth.

[Nada]

It's subjective
That sounds like there was an experience, but assumptions were made
Of course you are not the truth. That doesn't even make sense.

Direct experiences like tasting wine, feeling pain when you pinch yourself, ordering your favorite meal at a restaurant, meeting a new person, choosing a certain profession, or deciding to take certain job are your own experiences. Those experiences are objectives and your truth.

These direct experiences and choices are not subjective to you. These are absolute objective realities to you, as far as you know.
You chose those experiences with your own desires, freewill, determinations, and etc.

However.
What if you find out one day that all those decisions that you had made based on your own objective truths/realities were not your own??
What happen to all your truths/realities then?

If none of your truths/realities ever existed, would you question your own existence? Are you even real? Is your existence a truth?

[Gem]

I think it's driven by emotional needs ,and love might be the most fundamental. What in the universe doesn't want love? But that doesn't seem to have much to do with Truth. Truth seems to always end in so much contention. Being secure in Truth may be a way to make up for other basic needs that aren't being met, physical, emotional ..spiritual?

There's probably ideals about it, like God's love etc, but plain statistics suggest that love is needed for healthy development, it's like emotional nutrition.

On the other hand.. how can we live without knowing who we and where we come from? Without that we have no basis. We're just floating around with no meaning or purpose. We have to imagine Truth to survive. Life needs to be in a context to have a reason to go on living. Nature abhors a vacuum.

Agree that the truth gives our lives a deeper meaning, and even though the truth can't be identified, everyone knows what it is to be truthful. I think people want there to be 'such a thing as the truth', but I have doubts there is such a thing. It's more incorporated into consciousness.

[Gem]

Direct experiences like tasting wine, feeling pain when you pinch yourself, ordering your favorite meal at a restaurant, meeting a new person, choosing a certain profession, or deciding to take certain job are your own experiences. Those experiences are objectives and your truth.

Experience is subjective

These direct experiences and choices are not subjective to you. These are absolute objective realities to you, as far as you know.
You chose those experiences with your own desires, freewill, determinations, and etc.

The experience just happens and I happen to be aware of it.

However.
What if you find out one day that all those decisions that you had made based on your own objective truths/realities were not your own??
What happen to all your truths/realities then?

If none of your truths/realities ever existed, would you question your own existence? Are you even real? Is your existence a truth?

Personally, I don't deal in realities because experience is subjective not objective. When the wind blows it stimulates my skin and it feels like 'this'. I don't chose what it feels like, I just observe what it does feel like. What happens is, it changes.

Where does that leave me, or the truth of my existence? The awareness of the feeling of the wind, is the truth as it is, in the way I experience it, in this moment. That's completely doubtless.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Here's something:
What is there in "opposition" to the Truth?
"Opposite" to Truth is Falseness...
and Falseness is nothingness because it does not exist in Truth!
Truth is everything that is.
"Everything is True"

[Gem]

Here's something:
What is there in "opposition" to the Truth?
"Opposite" to Truth is Falseness...
and Falseness is nothingness because it does not exist in Truth!
Truth is everything that is.
"Everything is True"

Lies exist, it's true that they exist; however, a lie is not the truth.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Lies exist, it's true that they exist; however, a lie is not the truth.

I knew you'd go there!!
Ask yourself: "Who proclaims lies as true?"
It's a conundrum that I can't unravel for you.
Are there particular lies that deserve/require "redemption"?
When they ARE redeemed, aren't they no longer lies??

[Gem]

I knew you'd go there!!
Ask yourself: "Who proclaims lies as true?"
It's a conundrum that I can't unravel for you.
Are there particular lies that deserve/require "redemption"?
When they ARE redeemed, aren't they no longer lies??
I'm just stating the obvious so as to dispel spiritual cliches that are passed off as truths. If a lie is redeemed, then it's a redeemed lie.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

I'm just stating the obvious so as to dispel spiritual cliches that are passed off as truths. If a lie is redeemed, then it's a redeemed lie.

If a lie is brought into accord with truth, it is no longer a lie.
That's how I see it.

If a statement "serves" truth, it is not deception.

obvious?

[Gem]

If a lie is brought into accord with truth, it is no longer a lie.
That's how I see it.

If a statement "serves" truth, it is not deception.

obvious?

it is acknowledged as lie. Usually lies are found out, busted. I guess you could say that sometimes the avenue to the truth is the exposure of lies.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

it is acknowledged as lie. Usually lies are found out, busted. I guess you could say that sometimes the avenue to the truth is the exposure of lies.

Sometimes, I've discovered, a lie can be "turned around" and used in the opposite direction....
Then it becomes a truth.
The same 'facts' are involved, they simply serve a different purpose.

All things that ARE, are True. Non-True things can't exist... not "truly".
It's sort of a word game. :smile:

[Steven]

Everything is true, or everything is false, whichever you choose is accurate....except that from some perspectives, some things are true while other's are false lol....

The point is, that in a life long search for TRUTH, with many insights and understandings both achieved, and then let go of...

The thing that this body/mind has experienced, is that all truths, and all falsehoods are subject to relativity, and as such, True or False is irrelevant in its utter relativity.

What's left, after that, is the option to choose one's own Truth or not....which is possibly all there ever was. :-)

[psychoslice]

Everything is true, or everything is false, whichever you choose is accurate....except that from some perspectives, some things are true while other's are false lol....

The point is, that in a life long search for TRUTH, with many insights and understandings both achieved, and then let go of...

The thing that this body/mind has found is that all truths, and all falsehoods are subject to relativity, and as such, True or False is irrelevant in its utter relativity.

What's left, after that, is the option to choose one's own Truth....which is possibly all there ever was. :-)
I see, and is that the truth lol.:smile:

[Steven]

I see, and is that the truth lol.:smile:

Haha....Truthfully ;-), I don't know.

:-)

But it's kinda the experience that this body/mind is having.

Does it seem "Truthyish" to you :-)

[Gem]

Haha....Truthfully ;-), I don't know.

:-)

But it's kinda the experience that this body/mind is having.

Does it seem "Truthyish" to you :-)

It's a subjective experience.

[Gem]

Sometimes, I've discovered, a lie can be "turned around" and used in the opposite direction....
Then it becomes a truth.
The same 'facts' are involved, they simply serve a different purpose.

All things that ARE, are True. Non-True things can't exist... not "truly".
It's sort of a word game. :smile:

Words have meanings... and a lie is deliberate, yet a falsity can be said truthfully if one is honestly mistaken.

[the_crow]

Truth - aka Reality - is the preexisting state.
It is what is, before one turns one's mind loose on it, thereby turning it into something else.