The Process that Leads from Suffering to Liberation

[Gem]

The principle is that the freedom of infinite peace and love already exists within each individual. In that people are not directly aware of that, the assumption is that there is a process which leads to the direct experience that liberation.

This thread explores the process of moving from the bondage of suffering to freedom and liberation...

The only universal truth is a person's direct experience, so everyone is equally footed and has explorations of their own to make.

From suffering to liberation, what's the process?

[Nameless]

I am reading this book, Allen Carr's Easy Way to Stop Smoking (it has been recommended on here by many that by the end of the book, they quit easily and haven't looked back) and the basic premise of this book is "from suffering to liberation". Maybe not spiritual, but all it is is changing the belief - that stopping smoking can be easy instead of being hard like we are programmed to think it is, that we believe it is, and we can free ourselves of the slavery of smoking.

I must admit (as I light a cigarette) that I am reading this slowly, because I believe once I get to the end, I will be a non smoker, because I do believe it is easy to quit. :)

[God-Like]

If a hamster running on its wheel was likened to suffering then there is momentum that keeps the hamster in sufferings .

All the hamster can do is seemingly continue on this so called process that seemingly has no beginning and no end .

Then something happens that has not happened prior .

It seems as if a point is reached and it is only at this point does the hamster stop running and become still ..

Within this stillness there is clarity and Mr. Hamster can step off the wheel .

Liberation .

x daz x

[Mr Interesting]

A good friend was round my place yesterday and said that while out selling his wares, at markets, that hes still got his nervous laugh that follows him around still, and I said don't worry, you know it's there now and you'll slowly get perspective on it and realise where it's coming from and that awareness will eventually lead to it disappearing.

I think it's this choice or ability growing which initially has us looking at the world around us with some amount of distancing ourselves and eventually leads to us applying the same perspective to ourselves.

And initially I don't think that most people even know that what they are doing is suffering, unless ,of course, it involves some kind of pain, because one needs to almost touch non-suffering to get an idea of how suffering affects them. So this gradual process of self awareness, being aware of the self in isolation, leads on to an awareness of suffering which is followed to liberation.

But I got into something last week with an acquaintance and this illustrated, for me anyways, that two sidedness of suffering and non-suffering in a rather obvious way. I was doing work of a mechanical nature which I've done before and understand. It was about dismantling a bathroom to make it ready for eventual refurbishment but putting back the amenities, in the mean time, for use. This bathroom though had been put together with luck, spit and huge amounts of silicone to make up for the choice to use what could be described as proprietary parts and fell apart the more I touched it.

This frightened the person I was working for who become more and more agitated and unrealistic whilst before me I just saw a problem easily solved with the right spare parts being replaced. But the owner just saw chaos and this threw her into fear and anxiety.

No amount of my defending/defining the process did any good and if anything she went further into denial.

So what was the difference between me and her that had her suffering to the extent she was whilst I remained relatively calm but also couldn't help but become somewhat reactive to the situation which was just simply a collection of parts put together wrongly?

Our perceptions of events? And our control of events?

What surprised me more than anything was that whilst I was within the events it wasn't a matter of anything other than a series of problems that required solving and that those problems could be solved but this seemed to be at odds with this huge emotional response which couldn't see problems being solved but only that the few problems encountered would just start getting greater and greater. It all became a metaphor as opposed to a real collection of parts and it amazed me how quickly this situation arose.

So I suppose the beginning of liberation and the ending of suffering is about realising that the world is merely a collection of parts that will have some fitting together and some not and knowing when and where those parts fit together seems to be a valid perception of self as a part.

[Ivy]

Processes sell...and give answers and allow people to measure where they are along a step by step journey.

There's nothing wrong with that if it works. But from a purely personal view, I don't get processes..they feel prescribed or restrictive. Yet I understand the choice to not suffer. It becomes a choice when we believe wholeheartedly that the choice exists. Maybe we have to understand what suffering constitutes too.

When the ingredients are all there we choose to suffer life or not. How we get there would logically depend on what ingredients aren't there.

[Belle]

Yet I understand the choice to not suffer. It becomes a choice when we believe wholeheartedly that the choice exists. Maybe we have to understand what suffering constitutes too.

I would add that it can be a subconcious choice that moves into the concious choice. For years I tolerated a job where i felt I had no choice. I remember someone explaining to me that I did have a choice and thinking that he was an idiot for not realising that I didn't have a choice. But I did, I could have decided at any point to leave. The choice was simply not within my reach to realise.

Sometimes, the choice might be the lesser of two evils. A poor example: I suffer the vitriol of my mother and feel slighted (bla bla bla) as the alternative - or how I see the alternatives - are much worse.

In the example above, I do have a control over the situation as I limit contact with her. But I don't reject her which appeases the conscience. And, I am changing myself so that the vitriol is water of a duck's back - I hope.

I'm not a martyr I hope, for me, the relationship with her is sacred and the karmic burden (so I believe) needs addressing.

Liberation might come in a future incarnation with respect to her. Would prefer to see it in this incarnation to be honest.

And, not everyone gets the long game treatment that my mother has!

[Gem]

The story about the bathroom was pretty cool, because a process starts here with this then moves on to the next thing, and can be seen a series of small steps, and in an orderly fashion, one step at a time gets the job done.

[Mr Interesting]

Yeah, and we just stop playing peoples games as part of our own games.

And I'm also all for allowing myself to feel what I feel irrespective if I'm told differently. That all adds up to a sense that we really do actually know whats good for us.

Those little niggles of years ago when I'd feel that one thing was so and be unsure because of that but if we stick with those feeling we eventually find out we're usually pretty right and that all adds up to having confidence in yourself and what we believe and feel is essentially us.

Maybe then, knowing ourselves, also allows us to see others that don't know themselves and keeping away from their games leads to better more open and honest events in which we can know ourselves even better.

But yeah, trust your own feelings even if all say they are wrong... given time they may be righter than you thought possible... it all adds up.

[DoctorStrange]

For me, there is no process.

You are oneness and have always been. The thing is to bring everything into balance, if something thinks that is a process, then ok, that's fine, but i just bring everything into balance with oneness in my life.

[God-Like]

For me, there is no process.

You are oneness and have always been. The thing is to bring everything into balance, if something thinks that is a process, then ok, that's fine, but i just bring everything into balance with oneness in my life.

Hi .

In one respect I agree that there is no process but with that in mind there can be nothing else either . If there is no process then there is no balance or oneness or life . .

Its like looking into a fruit bowl and saying the plum exists but the banana doesn't .

x daz x

[amy green]

Suffering can be pretty stagnant/static/stuck. I believe that suffering has its place, i.e. that there is a reason for it happening and a lesson to be learnt. Staying in suffering can indicate lesson unlearnt and also be detrimental to health, i.e. entail developing depression and other psychosomatic illnesses.

I view that it becomes a process when we choose to do something about it. For some, I guess this point arrives when they can take no more - a point of no return. Once the realisation and motivation are galvanised, then it becomes a matter of what we choose to do about the suffering, i.e. our choices may determine what outcome can be experienced.

[Gem]

What causes the bondage a person lives with and how the binds are untied is the basis of the process. It isn't like there's a blanket answer or a principle that's universally applicable except people have to discover for themselves and make the determination to overcome their problems and untie the bindings, so there no authority on the subject.

The opportunity exists to talk it through and propagate ideas, and in a mutually supportive environment, explore and inquire and discover.

[Ivy]

What causes the bondage a person lives with and how the binds are untied is the basis of the process. It isn't like there's a blanket answer or a principle that's universally applicable except people have to discover for themselves and make the determination to overcome their problems and untie the bindings, so there no authority on the subject.

The opportunity exists to talk it through and propagate ideas, and in a mutually supportive environment, explore and inquire and discover.

I completely support the need to talk things through and process our experiences.

But the notion of a process from bindings to freedom is based on promise and expectation.

It is the notion of work hard and get into heaven re-dressed. There is nothing wrong with this, if it is used by an individual, for themselves. But what is seen throughout history and even on these boards, is the turning of an individual process into a religion that others must follow. Followed by the idea that fellow followers are enlightened and people who are different need to be enlightened.

[Gem]

I completely support the need to talk things through and process our experiences.

But the notion of a process from bindings to freedom is based on promise and expectation.

Why support talking things through and process what we experience?

It is the notion of work hard and get into heaven re-dressed. There is nothing wrong with this, if it is used by an individual, for themselves. But what is seen throughout history and even on these boards, is the turning of an individual process into a religion that others must follow. Followed by the idea that fellow followers are enlightened and people who are different need to be enlightened.

No-ones promising anything, talking about heaven, enlightenment, the issue of following authority has just been dismissed and the individual process of discovery was promoted.

[andrew g]

The principle is that the freedom of infinite peace and love already exists within each individual. In that people are not directly aware of that, the assumption is that there is a process which leads to the direct experience that liberation.

This thread explores the process of moving from the bondage of suffering to freedom and liberation...

The only universal truth is a person's direct experience, so everyone is equally footed and has explorations of their own to make.

From suffering to liberation, what's the process?

If I start from the assumption that its an individual process rather than a collective process, I would say the process is principally a perspective shift, or a frame of reference shift. Because of the nature of the frame of reference of bondage/suffering, it can be a very emotional and physical process in which deep hurts, fears and attachments are released. But not necessarily. A single insight can be very transformative, though based on my experience, I wouldn't recommend going looking for the single transformative insight. I would more likely recommend an attitude of exploration, willingness to learn, open mindedness and discernment. I am also likely to recommend cultivating certain qualities and practices such as meditation, open mindedness, compassion, self-honesty, forgiveness. And having said that, my own 'freedom and liberation' is only relative to the bondage and suffering I used to experience, I wouldn't claim to be totally free and liberated, so my recommendations are offered subjectively rather than absolutely.

[Ivy]

Why support talking things through and process what we experience?

Because talking things through processes information and ideas.



No-ones promising anything, talking about heaven, enlightenment, the issue of following authority has just been dismissed and the individual process of discovery was promoted.

Nobody promises anything by talking about heaven/enlightenment. But what I said was that the notion of there being a process from bad to good...binding to enlightenment...mortal sin to heavenly immortality - is based upon the promise or expectation of good/enlightenment/heaven as a reward or attainment.

It is a persuasive technique that says 'if you do this you will be rewarded'. In our society it is used in everything from parenting to selling cars.

It is used because it works for some people, and that's fine. But it is what it is and it's not necessarily for everyone.

[Mr Interesting]

I'd like to add that it's almost a genetic code within in to the extent that simply being born and growing to maturity is a pattern of growth we cannot help but be a part of as it is also what all nature does unthinkingly and just following the internal incumbent DNA.

So that we might find a point where we emerge from physical growth to enter emotional and intellectual it may be entirely natural to then grow spiritually. And each level includes the seeds of the next.

This said it may actually require more effort not to grow spiritually and this may be the reason why consumerism is such a deep dark whole in that it seems to offer a liberation we all feel we need but it doesn't pay like it should and our environment is the cost of that denial.

[Arcturus]

From suffering to liberation, what's the process?

Buddha quote (apparently): "What has been long neglected cannot be restored immediately. Fruit falls from the tree when it is ripe. The way cannot be forced."

one must have a body in tip top health.

krishnamurti denies time and folk assume, wrongly imo, that enlightenment must then be an immediate event. i think what he is saying is that one must not accept psychological time as becoming.

its a strange connundrum, or is it? i'm wondering to myself. you cannot become more enlightened with time. enlightenment is obviously a total action, it cannot be partial. so can it be a process at all?

psychologically speaking i think "la vie negative" or what's known as "the great negation", is the only non way "way" to understand the mind's complexities. this insightfull understanding frees the mind of it's binding tendancies. this does not posit a method or process. for example one cannot define love but you can say what it is not; for instance hate or jealousy...and when you have denied what is false then truth remains...don't quote me

what is enlightenment to me? understanding and hence transcending inner psychological conflict. something, strangely enough, very very few do

[BlueSky]

If I start from the assumption that its an individual process rather than a collective process, I would say the process is principally a perspective shift, or a frame of reference shift. Because of the nature of the frame of reference of bondage/suffering, it can be a very emotional and physical process in which deep hurts, fears and attachments are released. But not necessarily. A single insight can be very transformative, though based on my experience, I wouldn't recommend going looking for the single transformative insight. I would more likely recommend an attitude of exploration, willingness to learn, open mindedness and discernment. I am also likely to recommend cultivating certain qualities and practices such as meditation, open mindedness, compassion, self-honesty, forgiveness. And having said that, my own 'freedom and liberation' is only relative to the bondage and suffering I used to experience, I wouldn't claim to be totally free and liberated, so my recommendations are offered subjectively rather than absolutely.

Nice Andrew.....................and 'ditto" for me. I really like and relate to the last sentence about it being relative and subjective.

[Gem]

Because talking things through processes information and ideas.

And so much more, because the human is involved in so much more than information and ideas. People are complex and emotional and entertain beliefs and have ideals, values, morals and ethics... have virtue, truthfulness and so on, and the reason talking things through contributes to a person's liberation is they get the stuff 'off their chest'; they bring things out into the open and shed light on the issues.


Nobody promises anything by talking about heaven/enlightenment. But what I said was that the notion of there being a process from bad to good...binding to enlightenment...mortal sin to heavenly immortality - is based upon the promise or expectation of good/enlightenment/heaven as a reward or attainment.

It is a persuasive technique that says 'if you do this you will be rewarded'. In our society it is used in everything from parenting to selling cars.

It is used because it works for some people, and that's fine. But it is what it is and it's not necessarily for everyone.

Personally, not interested in heaven and enlightenment, but yes people are driven by reward, so am I, it's just that my value system isn't material, it's spiritual, which is just another word for psychological... yep psychology in robes.

[Gem]

I'd like to add that it's almost a genetic code within in to the extent that simply being born and growing to maturity is a pattern of growth we cannot help but be a part of as it is also what all nature does unthinkingly and just following the internal incumbent DNA.

So that we might find a point where we emerge from physical growth to enter emotional and intellectual it may be entirely natural to then grow spiritually. And each level includes the seeds of the next.

This said it may actually require more effort not to grow spiritually and this may be the reason why consumerism is such a deep dark whole in that it seems to offer a liberation we all feel we need but it doesn't pay like it should and our environment is the cost of that denial.

Yep... Genetics, like father like son in a very literal sense.

To my way of thinking, spirituality is really self awareness, and even though a lot of weight is given to paranormal abilities, that may distract from the process of purification. Purification isn't actually a process of gaining things, it's a process by which 'contaminants' are removed. Consumerism thrives on the aquisition of things.

[Ivy]

And so much more, because the human is involved in so much more than information and ideas. People are complex and emotional and entertain beliefs and have ideals, values, morals and ethics... have virtue, truthfulness and so on, and the reason talking things through contributes to a person's liberation is they get the stuff 'off their chest'; they bring things out into the open and shed light on the issues.

What you say is interesting. I don't often talk about my ideals, values, ethics, virtue, truthfulness etc. To be honest, I don't think about them often, but they are there in feeling.

What I find most helpful to talk about are emotional issues and reflections.

What I do most often on SF is offer alternative viewpoints. It's not necessarily that I have one different view to somebody else...it's that I consider everything from more than one angle. So that is my view of the world.


Personally, not interested in heaven and enlightenment, but yes people are driven by reward, so am I, it's just that my value system isn't material, it's spiritual, which is just another word for psychological... yep psychology in robes.

Heaven, enlightenment, freedom, peace, happiness, evolution - the connotation in all of them is that they are 'better' than their opposite counterpart and there are a million other ideals that have the same psychological effect upon people. They suit this world of comparatives...of seperation and opposition.

As you say, the binary oppositions or comparatives are the basic psychological building blocks of any process toward reward/attainment.

What if people were to be free of the process?

[Gem]

What you say is interesting. I don't often talk about my ideals, values, ethics, virtue, truthfulness etc. To be honest, I don't think about them often, but they are there in feeling.

What I find most helpful to talk about are emotional issues and reflections.

that's interesting, because talking about things is a process, or a way of processing.

What I do most often on SF is offer alternative viewpoints. It's not necessarily that I have one different view to somebody else...it's that I consider everything from more than one angle. So that is my view of the world.

Heaven, enlightenment, freedom, peace, happiness, evolution - the connotation in all of them is that they are 'better' than their opposite counterpart and there are a million other ideals that have the same psychological effect upon people. They suit this world of comparatives...of seperation and opposition.

As you say, the binary oppositions or comparatives are the basic psychological building blocks of any process toward reward/attainment.

What if people were to be free of the process?

Well, I'm not here to promise enlightenment or anything, but this is a world of comparisons (I doubt that implies separations and oppositions) because it's all relative or interactive.

There is process and no one has a choice about that, like being born is a process of growth and decay and death, same for every person. That's not bondage though so we don't say 'free' from the process.

[Ivy]

that's interesting, because talking about things is a process, or a way of processing.

Well, I'm not here to promise enlightenment or anything, but this is a world of comparisons (I doubt that implies separations and oppositions) because it's all relative or interactive.

There is process and no one has a choice about that, like being born is a process of growth and decay and death, same for every person. That's not bondage though so we don't say 'free' from the process.
[/quote]

There is a difference between processing and defining a process.

Processing is an action that we undertake every moment of everyday.

However, defining a process is to create a theoretical model...the ingredients being a measurement from one state to another state.

It is that measurement that it is possible to live without.

Not everybody wants to, and that's fine. But it is possible.

Personally, my life doesn't make sense when viewed as a process. It isn't linear or necessarily logically ordered.

Psychologically, my mind doesn't always work the same as another persons mind might work. So I don't see things as a linear progression through life. I go backwards and forwards - and what matters is that I am living with whatever is here now...whether that is a memory, a hope, or the paper in front of me - at that moment it is in my mind, it is part of now.

So that is how time jumps about and why even the process of birth, life and death don't always work exclusively in that order. In my view they happen constantly and simultaneously. Whether we say I'm dying, I'm living or I'm being born is purely a momentary interpretation or perception.

I havn't suggested that you are here to promise enlightenment. I'm not discussing something personal about you. I'm simply discussing the original notion of whether there is a process from binding to freedom x

[Mr Interesting]

I have experienced stillness within meditation, not for a while actually, but I still remember it, whilst within life I have only calm... and somewhere in the middle lies peace.

I suppose the process of getting from one to the other is letting go and within the idea of process there is a direction which can be stop starty, here and thereish, but overall the lesson seems to be one of obsolescence. My ego and desiring self are obsolete.

The interesting thing is that the life itself doesn't change so much, I still breathe and walk and eat and make and clean, but the me that demanded being seen is drifting away.

The surface quality doesn't matter so much but that the inner breathes into it is a direction, is the process.

[Sarian]

The principle is that the freedom of infinite peace and love already exists within each individual. In that people are not directly aware of that, the assumption is that there is a process which leads to the direct experience that liberation.

This thread explores the process of moving from the bondage of suffering to freedom and liberation...

The only universal truth is a person's direct experience, so everyone is equally footed and has explorations of their own to make.

From suffering to liberation, what's the process?
Ive not read anything else on this thread yet. I'm not as spiritually advanced and knowledgeable as others seem, but my first though for me personally is 'letting go'. i have always known that I am my own worst enemy, but when I let go, whether it be religion or a relationship or a hangup I have, I find such liberation that feels so incredibly freeing. My hangups/issues are harder, but still when I let go, it's wonderful. I feel unshackled. I feel like I am better for it in all ways.

[Sarian]

What causes the bondage a person lives with and how the binds are untied is the basis of the process. It isn't like there's a blanket answer or a principle that's universally applicable except people have to discover for themselves and make the determination to overcome their problems and untie the bindings, so there no authority on the subject.

The opportunity exists to talk it through and propagate ideas, and in a mutually supportive environment, explore and inquire and discover.
Bondage can begin anywhere or any time and we don't even realize it. I've started one of my books and having to look back and things in my life that led me to become obsessed with certain things about my physical self, I'm blown away by. Simple, stupid things really from having a mother who possibly subconsciously was unhappy with aspects about me or herself for that matter and therefore, tried to make me into what she wanted or who she wished she had been...but very early on, that seed was planted within me, and it's caused me suffering on many levels and put me into bondage.

In relationships, all one has to do is observe how one's friends or mate treats others and then treats you and it starts something. I've always watched how people interact with each other and then I would notice how people interacted with me, when I'm quiet and withdrawn, of course, people don't want to interact with me much and then I can wall myself and label myself names such as misfit and by doing that, I do a disservice to myself. Sometimes I'm very outgoing and people gravitate towards me, but I dare not think good of myself because usually when I do that, the quiet and withdrawn me comes back out and people wonder what's up with me. so I've put myself in my own little prison.

There's not a one-size-fits-all solution to untying the bondage and freeing oneself. There are gazillions of books out there telling you if you do x, y and z you will be free, but it really only comes down to that quiet time with yourself and wanting to be free bad enough and being willing to undergo the painful process of breaking out yourself. We all have the power within us to do so, but you have to want it bad enough. Whining and wallowing don't cut it.

[Gem]

There is a difference between processing and defining a process.

Processing is an action that we undertake every moment of everyday.

However, defining a process is to create a theoretical model...the ingredients being a measurement from one state to another state.

It is that measurement that it is possible to live without.

Not everybody wants to, and that's fine. But it is possible.

Personally, my life doesn't make sense when viewed as a process. It isn't linear or necessarily logically ordered.

Psychologically, my mind doesn't always work the same as another persons mind might work. So I don't see things as a linear progression through life. I go backwards and forwards - and what matters is that I am living with whatever is here now...whether that is a memory, a hope, or the paper in front of me - at that moment it is in my mind, it is part of now.

So that is how time jumps about and why even the process of birth, life and death don't always work exclusively in that order. In my view they happen constantly and simultaneously. Whether we say I'm dying, I'm living or I'm being born is purely a momentary interpretation or perception.

I havn't suggested that you are here to promise enlightenment. I'm not discussing something personal about you. I'm simply discussing the original notion of whether there is a process from binding to freedom x

Processing involves undertaking a process. That process isn't always defined or planned, but it often is. This thread focuses on a state of being trapped or inhibited and the process by which that is overcome so that a person is freed up or liberated.

I don't see dying as being born, my gran died and my niece was born, but we'll all go through that same process.

[Juanita]

If I start from the assumption that its an individual process rather than a collective process, I would say the process is principally a perspective shift, or a frame of reference shift. Because of the nature of the frame of reference of bondage/suffering, it can be a very emotional and physical process in which deep hurts, fears and attachments are released. But not necessarily. A single insight can be very transformative, though based on my experience, I wouldn't recommend going looking for the single transformative insight. I would more likely recommend an attitude of exploration, willingness to learn, open mindedness and discernment. I am also likely to recommend cultivating certain qualities and practices such as meditation, open mindedness, compassion, self-honesty, forgiveness. And having said that, my own 'freedom and liberation' is only relative to the bondage and suffering I used to experience, I wouldn't claim to be totally free and liberated, so my recommendations are offered subjectively rather than absolutely.




IMO this is the only post that actually answered the question and the only one I could really relate to.....thank you......

[Ivy]

Processing involves undertaking a process. That process isn't always defined or planned, but it often is. This thread focuses on a state of being trapped or inhibited and the process by which that is overcome so that a person is freed up or liberated.

I don't see dying as being born, my gran died and my niece was born, but we'll all go through that same process.

It's ok to have different views. I was simply expressing an alternative to yours:smile:

the assumption is that there is a process which leads to the direct experience that liberation.

It was this aspect of the thread I was commenting on...but I will let it get back to the focus you wanted - apologies.

[Gem]

It's ok to have different views. I was simply expressing an alternative to yours:smile:



It was this aspect of the thread I was commenting on...but I will let it get back to the focus you wanted - apologies.

Cant eat breakfast before cooking the eggs, no matter what perspective.