View Full Version : On Truth and Subjectivity
No one's going to come and say their Truth is informed by a power which is higher than themself or assert validity based on grand delusions, for each person may say as he thinks and all persons are equal in that regard.
The saying 'your truth'... as if every person can have a truth of their own, means any person's statement can be said to be true, but it seems quite obvious that fallacy is the main constituent of peoples' beliefs.
The semantics of it are a little contrived as more spiritual sounding phrasing negates any way that a person can be wrong, but fallacy of belief causes so much suffering. Just last week an afghani girl child was shot in the head for attending school because maniacs believe something wierd and call it the truth. 'Your truth' are dangerous words.
The subjective conscious experience is momentarily changing, and nothing can be helds in the hands, so one can not grasp anything and say 'this is the truth'. The truth must be intrinsic to consciousness itself if it is to exist at all, and it does seem to be, because all people know the ability of truthfullness.
Seawolf
08-02-2013, 03:13 PM
People believe harmful things all the time. I used to believe life was pointless and not worth living. Many people around here believe homosexuality is an abomination to God.
Beliefs come from the environment and history of an area. For instance the climate zone affects beliefs that arise, invasions from other countries, and whatever other factors that are specific to that culture.
But just like most things, beliefs have a positive side and a negative side. Anything that is so influential to people is going to have major effects. All spiritual beliefs are going to have some kind of major negative effect overall, but a positive one as well. To me it's not so much people have their own 'Truth' but have different environments and histories that shape their understanding of the world.
BlueSky
08-02-2013, 03:35 PM
People believe harmful things all the time. I used to believe life was pointless and not worth living. Many people around here believe homosexuality is an abomination to God.
Beliefs come from the environment and history of an area. For instance the climate zone affects beliefs that arise, invasions from other countries, and whatever other factors that are specific to that culture.
But just like most things, beliefs have a positive side and a negative side. Anything that is so influential to people is going to have major effects. All spiritual beliefs are going to have some kind of major negative effect overall, but a positive one as well. To me it's not much people have their own 'Truth' but have different environments and histories that shape their understanding of the world.
I enjoyed that.
People believe harmful things all the time. I used to believe life was pointless and not worth living. Many people around here believe homosexuality is an abomination to God.
I noticed harmful beliefs, and also have has destructive ones, and still by no means a perfect person, but one thing I had was integrity and never lost sight of that, and integrity is a function of living by the truth, and taking what comes as consequence to that, and I think I sense that special quality in you as well... a quality that can be trusted.
Beliefs come from the environment and history of an area. For instance the climate zone affects beliefs that arise, invasions from other countries, and whatever other factors that are specific to that culture.
I don't think we should accept what culture deems the truth, and better to be critical and question the basis which validates social morality. Can we afford to blindly abide by social morality. For myself I need no man made laws to govern my behaviour, because I have that integrity I mentioned and am steered by good conscience, even though I deviate at times.
But just like most things, beliefs have a positive side and a negative side. Anything that is so influential to people is going to have major effects. All spiritual beliefs are going to have some kind of major negative effect overall, but a positive one as well. To me it's not much people have their own 'Truth' but have different environments and histories that shape their understanding of the world.
I agree, there's no option but to be the sum total of your past, and where some have this parady where they create themselves, it's still imperative to accept themselves as they are...
Seawolf
08-02-2013, 08:19 PM
I noticed harmful beliefs, and also have has destructive ones, and still by no means a perfect person, but one thing I had was integrity and never lost sight of that, and integrity is a function of living by the truth, and taking what comes as consequence to that, and I think I sense that special quality in you as well... a quality that can be trusted.
I don't think we should accept what culture deems the truth, and better to be critical and question the basis which validates social morality. Can we afford to blindly abide by social morality. For myself I need no man made laws to govern my behaviour, because I have that integrity I mentioned and am steered by good conscience, even though I deviate at times.
I agree, there's no option but to be the sum total of your past, and where some have this parady where they create themselves, it's still imperative to accept themselves as they are...
Thanks for the kind words. Having been so beaten down by life in the past I can appreciate the freeing aspect of spirituality and is where my focus is spent, which may give me certain qualities. I don't really know. I don't think of myself as a follower of truth or a moral person, like I said my main focus is on personal freedom, from depression, hate and all kinds of negative beliefs about myself. And to be free from something I have to accept it, which doesn't make sense, but seems to work.
I can't speak for other cultures but here in the US there are all kinds of beliefs I don't want. We believe death and old age is something to be completely terrified of. Self worth is measured by careers and possessions. Many fear a God looking down on them disapprovingly.
Deep down we seem to have a negative self image here, which is masked by the image of ourselves we learn from society. So if we conform to society based on it's beliefs about value, we can at least 'fit in' and gain self esteem from the acceptance of others. And that actually does work to an extent, fitting in and being accepted provides happiness, and may be all most people need. Some though, can't seem to be happy fitting into any crowd, even 'alternate' ones -- we need something more and have to work at it a little harder. In ancient times we'd bring down a whole tribe with us because survival was dependent on conformity, but then again this is not ancient times anymore.
Thanks for the kind words. Having been so beaten down by life in the past I can appreciate the freeing aspect of spirituality and is where my focus is spent, which may give me certain qualities. I don't really know. I don't think of myself as a follower of truth or a moral person, like I said my main focus is on personal freedom, from depression, hate and all kinds of negative beliefs about myself. And to be free from something I have to accept it, which doesn't make sense, but seems to work.
I'm not so big on acceptance, I think things can be seen and need not be accepted because they just are, it doesn't matter accept or not, it still just is. It's kinda like this: the thing is noticed before accepting or rejecting even happens.
I can't speak for other cultures but here in the US there are all kinds of beliefs I don't want. We believe death and old age is something to be completely terrified of. Self worth is measured by careers and possessions. Many fear a God looking down on them disapprovingly.
The powers that be and culture offer up a lot of senseless beliefs, and really all beliefs are not based in truth, so they change as new perceptions are made. When people think the belief is true they become dogmatic and that causes problems, which is why I don't like the phrase 'your truth'.
Deep down we seem to have a negative self image here, which is masked by the image of ourselves we learn from society. So if we conform to society based on it's beliefs about value, we can at least 'fit in' and gain self esteem from the acceptance of others. And that actually does work to an extent, fitting in and being accepted provides happiness, and may be all most people need. Some though, can't seem to be happy fitting into any crowd, even 'alternate' ones -- we need something more and have to work at it a little harder. In ancient times we'd bring down a whole tribe with us because survival was dependent on conformity, but then again this is not ancient times anymore.
We do need to fit in, and that's fine, well personally I'm way off the wall and have no place so dwell on the fringes, but I'm studying now and assimulating better and I hope to be pretty average joe, coz I'd be happier being part of society, even though it's fundamentally flawed.
amy green
09-02-2013, 05:59 PM
No one's going to come and say their Truth is informed by a power which is higher than themself or assert validity based on grand delusions, for each person may say as he thinks and all persons are equal in that regard.
The saying 'your truth'... as if every person can have a truth of their own, means any person's statement can be said to be true, but it seems quite obvious that fallacy is the main constituent of peoples' beliefs.
The semantics of it are a little contrived as more spiritual sounding phrasing negates any way that a person can be wrong, but fallacy of belief causes so much suffering. Just last week an afghani girl child was shot in the head for attending school because maniacs believe something wierd and call it the truth. 'Your truth' are dangerous words.
The subjective conscious experience is momentarily changing, and nothing can be helds in the hands, so one can not grasp anything and say 'this is the truth'. The truth must be intrinsic to consciousness itself if it is to exist at all, and it does seem to be, because all people know the ability of truthfullness.
It seems evident to me that offering this extreme example (of the afghani child shot) does nothing to provide a good/rational foundation for a general debate on truth and subjectivity. Whilst the incident is indeed shocking, it simply does not reflect the norm and just provides an emotive, alarmist spin on the topic.
It seems evident to me that offering this extreme example (of the afghani child shot) does nothing to provide a good/rational foundation for a general debate on truth and subjectivity. Whilst the incident is indeed shocking, it simply does not reflect the norm and just provides an emotive, alarmist spin on the topic.
In the OP, there's one sentence about the shot girl; it wasn't the subject matter. I think it's appropriate.
amy green
10-02-2013, 11:40 AM
In the OP, there's one sentence about the shot girl; it wasn't the subject matter. I think it's appropriate.
Yes it was just a sentence but the only example you gave for the basis of your debate - hence my post.
Seawolf
11-02-2013, 12:55 AM
I'm not so big on acceptance, I think things can be seen and need not be accepted because they just are, it doesn't matter accept or not, it still just is. It's kinda like this: the thing is noticed before accepting or rejecting even happens.
The powers that be and culture offer up a lot of senseless beliefs, and really all beliefs are not based in truth, so they change as new perceptions are made. When people think the belief is true they become dogmatic and that causes problems, which is why I don't like the phrase 'your truth'.
We do need to fit in, and that's fine, well personally I'm way off the wall and have no place so dwell on the fringes, but I'm studying now and assimulating better and I hope to be pretty average joe, coz I'd be happier being part of society, even though it's fundamentally flawed.
That sounds great! When I'm depressed I retreat from everyone but I've been getting out there now. There are all kinds of interesting and fun people if I just make a little effort to find them. The internet might give a little social esteem but not very much.
For me acceptance means being able to observe thoughts with love.
All kinds of negative emotions were taking over my life until I heard about Tolle. I don't think he's the bees knees or anything, but I respect him because I was introduced to observing. Things have been getting better since then. Now I'm starting to be able to feel kindness towards my thoughts and see them as information instead of totally identifying with them and been controlled by them.
Beliefs come from our thoughts and emotions, but I don't have to accept everything I think and feel as truth. I don't think a term like 'My Truth' is correct because it's actually just my beliefs. I don't know if my spiritual beliefs are true or not and it doesn't seem important to me. I'm more interested if something works. Most wars seem to be about beliefs and also most needless war inside people's minds. Meditation is actually saving people's lives now. How many wars are started by religious people who meditate? Not many I imagine, it's mostly by people who believe in gods. They feel entitled and right, but I doubt we really know anything or have as much right as we think. No one ever thinks of themselves as the problem.
That sounds great! When I'm depressed I retreat from everyone but I've been getting out there now. There are all kinds of interesting and fun people if I just make a little effort to find them. The internet might give a little social esteem but not very much.
For me acceptance means being able to observe thoughts with love.
All kinds of negative emotions were taking over my life until I heard about Tolle. I don't think he's the bees knees or anything, but I respect him because I was introduced to observing. Things have been getting better since then. Now I'm starting to be able to feel kindness towards my thoughts and see them as information instead of totally identifying with them and been controlled by them.
Beliefs come from our thoughts and emotions, but I don't have to accept everything I think and feel as truth. I don't think a term like 'My Truth' is correct because it's actually just my beliefs. I don't know if my spiritual beliefs are true or not and it doesn't seem important to me. I'm more interested if something works. Most wars seem to be about beliefs and also most needless war inside people's minds. Meditation is actually saving people's lives now. How many wars are started by religious people who meditate? Not many I imagine, it's mostly by people who believe in gods. They feel entitled and right, but I doubt we really know anything or have as much right as we think. No one ever thinks of themselves as the problem.
Oh yea .. I see... the impersonal phenomena of thoughts. That to me is objectivity, and objectivity is related to truth, and in so saying, the truth is in the way of seeing. I guess that's why Tao means The Way. Indeed it see as information, data... good idea. AND seeing kindly is totally my thang actually.
It isn't really important if beliefs are true or not. Life will show they are not true and we'll change them over time. Religion is the basis for war, and only God can justify it. Actually it's greed, but they can't admit that, so 'God'.
Meditation is a bit misconstrued, and most of what they call meditation is actually imagination and the persuit of paranormal ability, but such abilities are really just an aside, and not the purpose; it is to see it as it is and not as you want it to be. People will disagree and say there are many kinds and reasons for meditation, but then again people will say it's 'your truth' by the same token.
Seawolf
11-02-2013, 04:02 PM
Oh yea .. I see... the impersonal phenomena of thoughts. That to me is objectivity, and objectivity is related to truth, and in so saying, the truth is in the way of seeing. I guess that's why Tao means The Way. Indeed it see as information, data... good idea. AND seeing kindly is totally my thang actually.
It isn't really important if beliefs are true or not. Life will show they are not true and we'll change them over time. Religion is the basis for war, and only God can justify it. Actually it's greed, but they can't admit that, so 'God'.
Meditation is a bit misconstrued, and most of what they call meditation is actually imagination and the persuit of paranormal ability, but such abilities are really just an aside, and not the purpose; it is to see it as it is and not as you want it to be. People will disagree and say there are many kinds and reasons for meditation, but then again people will say it's 'your truth' by the same token.
I've noticed that more doctors are recognizing yoga and meditation here, along with healthy eating, exercise, vitamins and herbal supplements. One heart surgeon tried it with her heart patients and all but one recovered, now she's teaching other doctors about it. I'm sure there lots of fad meditation ideas that appeals to the young, you can always expect things like that. There are always people that try to make money off the latest thing, and appeal to people's fears and desires to make lots of money.
I've heard Buddhist monks use meditation because they believe it heals themselves and the world. That appeals to me because it seems like the right attitude. Who knew they were actually working hard for us, I always thought they were trying to 'get away from it all'.
That's cool we have the same idea about thought as information and approaching it with kindness. I'm still confused about the inner child thing, sometimes I think my inner child still hates me. I guess I just have to give it more time and be patient. Or I could be completely wrong, I don't know.
I've noticed that more doctors are recognizing yoga and meditation here, along with healthy eating, exercise, vitamins and herbal supplements. One heart surgeon tried it with her heart patients and all but one recovered, now she's teaching other doctors about it. I'm sure there lots of fad meditation ideas that appeals to the young, you can always expect things like that. There are always people that try to make money off the latest thing, and appeal to people's fears and desires to make lots of money.
I've heard Buddhist monks use meditation because they believe it heals themselves and the world. That appeals to me because it seems like the right attitude. Who knew they were actually working hard for us, I always thought they were trying to 'get away from it all'.
That's cool we have the same idea about thought as information and approaching it with kindness. I'm still confused about the inner child thing, sometimes I think my inner child still hates me. I guess I just have to give it more time and be patient. Or I could be completely wrong, I don't know.
I don't anythng about medicine or herbal remedies, but have studies martial arts and the forms of chi, which was actually derived from the yogis of ancient india, and yoga is holistically mind body and spirit.
The real pure intention is to be more wholesome, greater tollerance compassion kindness and other virtues, but nothing can be gained by that, the desire for gain is detrimental and can never be sated, for anything gained is impermanant and will be lost, and all the LOA claims may be true, but is essentially for the sake of frivolous pleasure, and indeed, healing is the pure motivation which comes from the greater good.
Inner child at SF, it's not the place for it, there are no controls which enable protection and safety. I'm concerned that general discussion on it as a topic will turn into a personal thing about a particular persons child, and hack pseudo therapists will make a mess of things; that's almost inevitable at SF.
Seawolf
12-02-2013, 02:03 PM
I understand. I really need to talk to a professional about something like that or in a group lead by a professional. I guess nothing like that exists on the internet. It's too dangerous a format for something so deep.
I understand. I really need to talk to a professional about something like that or in a group lead by a professional. I guess nothing like that exists on the internet. It's too dangerous a format for something so deep.
There's good books about it, but again, one has to be discerning because 'spiritual' isn't indicative of expertise, but it's always good to do some research, even go to the library.
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