We are ALL Avatars! :)

[Sourcerer]

According to the original Sanskrit roots of the word "Avatara," we are ALL, quite literally, Avatars; even the most "evil" world dictator has "descended" from the same Absolute Source. ("The fall" is all metaphorical, of course.) It matters not who seems to be more "special," "Divine" or be "the Son of God" by ignorant human standards. Understand that all are loved equally and unconditionally by Spirit. :smile:

[peteyzen]

Hi sourcerer, yes I see what your saying and its true of course that we are all descents from the divine.
and of course all are loved equally by the divine/spirit.
And yet, an avatar is distinctly different from the rest of us, the avatar knows what it is. It is, even on its arrival, fully conscious of its true nature, it knows it is god. It has been sent with a divine purpose for the uplifting of everything in the material universe. It is in effect a hand of god made solid in the material world, knowing all and able to do anything.
I agree that we also have this potential and this is the purpose of ultimate realisation or enlightenment. So the human condition is something of a paradox, we are at once, the same as an avatar and yet nothing like one.

[Sourcerer]

My dear, dear, brother... For the Divine and also for those Avatars that you are so very much inspired by, there is no "And yet" or "buts" to the Truth that I spoke of, that all are equal and loved equally. It is only ego that speaks such a way, throwing in its arguments against total equality and Oneness. Recognize that it is ignorance that sees importance in "levels" and "degrees of awareness." Little do you realize, as you read this you are communing with one who deeply realizes this God-self, and yet there is no "fully conscious" knowing of this Truth expressed through this body/mind persona. It is not possible for 100% God-realization while in human form (nor in any form). To believe so is ludicrous, and those Avatars that you admire NEVER CLAIMED to know God "fully" as a human. Rather, they would often speak "from" that God-realized state, in a sense; but recognize, my brother, that all perception of "degrees" of Self-awareness is totally illusory and unreal.

You have a belief that those Avatars like Sathya Sai Baba and others are "fully conscious" of their True Nature. This is not so. Not even Jesus was fully conscious of being God. How could a "man" or "woman" be fully conscious of the God-state and, by that same token, how could the Fully Conscious God-mind remember its True Nature while masquerading in a human body as a man or a woman? It is not possible. Also, in a linear and multidimensional sense (illusory, yes, I know) even when you have completed your human incarnations your soul will still appear to continue to have other experiences in maya, even in "higher dimensions."

My brother, once you choose to graduate from the Avatar Fan Club, you too shall possess the clarity and wisdom to cease making distinctions between this state and that state, and recognize that the Unconditional Love of God is not about different states, nor is concerned about such unimportant things. Recognize that ALL creatures, ALL beings, are ultimately sent here to act as catalysts to uplift everything in the material universe, and not just certain "special" Avatars. Special is an illusion of ego. A Course in Miracles and the non-dualistic teachings of those Avatars that you research and write about are very clear about this.

Indeed the human condition appears paradoxical, for humans learn through lessons of paradox. Like my predecessors, I too bring a message of transcending paradox and realizing Divine Truth, while at the same time understanding that there is no such thing as "full realization" in the experience of human relativity. :smile:

[peteyzen]

Sorry you don`t like Avatars, I have found their love and help very useful.
Every single thing I said in reply to your first post is true.
You said we are all avatars, I merely pointed out that isn`t really true.
True Avatars are sent directly by the divine and have enormous abilities to help mankind that the rest of us do not.
I wanted to ensure this was clear, so that those who might have their lives enhanced through the grace of an avatar don`t get confused by your post.

[krishna]

Hello Petezen,
Wish to thank you for this brilliant and complete explanation.
Am in total agreement with every word.
Go every year with close friends to see the Divine mother Meera a female avatar.
There is no woman on earth like her------she is indeed an Avatar.
Never take it for granted that DMM will see me------------never ever been refused.
Yes------------Avatar are here on this planet to help all life forms.
In pure light and truth.
Krisha.

[Quagmire]

*sigh*
so many separations for no reason at all
so many standards impossible to live up to
looking down on that which one does not see worthy
when will the madness stop
when will everyone realize that they do not only have the potential
they are the potential
we are what we are
we create the labels ourselves
so why create so much separation instead of unity
if one believes in the specialty of these Avatars then why not act in their beauty and rise to their example and be one yourself instead of making lines in the sand?

[amy green]

*sigh*
so many separations for no reason at all
so many standards impossible to live up to
looking down on that which one does not see worthy
when will the madness stop
when will everyone realize that they do not only have the potential
they are the potential
we are what we are
we create the labels ourselves
so why create so much separation instead of unity
if one believes in the specialty of these Avatars then why not act in their beauty and rise to their example and be one yourself instead of making lines in the sand?
I don't see this thread as creating labels but exchanging definitions explaining beliefs.
What I have highlighted in your post shows you have not understood the nature of this debate.

[peteyzen]

My pleasure Krishna, Oh I love Mother Meera too, it is a wonderful experience taking her darshan, thank you for your comments.

[Quagmire]

I don't see this thread as creating labels but exchanging definitions explaining beliefs.
What I have highlighted in your post shows you have not understood the nature of this debate.

Some say I understand, others say I don't. If I should live my whole life in others boxes (labels, definitions call it what you want) then I would be quite confused all the time. The fact that nothing is highlighted on my computer might be considered a sign :wink:

But if I let others take away my Avatar because they do not see it in themselves or because I do not live up to their standards of what an Avatar is, then I will only do myself wrong. Many Clairvoyants (mediums call it what you want) have said that my ability is to see the god in everyone so that is what I will do. If people choose not to see their Avatar in themselves but in others then that is their chocie, their limitation on themselves - which is fair because the other view might just limit them even more... or something :dontknow:

[Sourcerer]

Sorry you don`t like Avatars, I have found their love and help very useful.
Every single thing I said in reply to your first post is true.

I deeply admire your passion and zest for seeking out those particular Avataric teachers that you are drawn to, for I clearly see that you resonate with much of what these greatly compassionate teachers share. Now, please show me, brother, where I stated that I don't like Avatars. You know I said no such thing, nor even suggested such, and I actually stated the opposite. What you say and what I say are merely opinions. Everything anyone says is opinion, for individual perspectives are opinions. Personal truth is not Divine Truth, and everything you and I stated are personal truths, because they are filtered/channeled through a human perception, just as everything those Avatars you admire teach is filtered and distorted through a human vessel. In "fact," these Avatars that you praise teach this, and also teach that all humans are Avatars. You've simply chosen to not hear them when they state such things, because of a strong desire to place them above other humans. You are a very perceptive Truth-seeker, of no doubt to me, yet I see that you also very easily mis-read the statements of others, as you did with me, my brother, making claims that are far from accurate. I love you, for you are my Avataric brother, and I love Mother Meera and Krishna and Adolph Hitler ALL equally the same, and place no one upon a pedestal above anyone else, for THIS is the true attitude that Avatars like Mother Meera and I teach and demonstrate daily. The Kingdom of God is equally in all, and it matters not whether one is awake to this or not, because the fact remains that the Kingdom is equal in ALL. I would not be so arrogant as to state that everything I say is true, because NOTHING I have ever stated is "true." Words aren't Truth, brother. They can only suggest or POINT to Divine Truth, if purely inspired by Unconditional Love rather than by ego/fear. What part of the concept/word UNCONDITIONAL LOVE that those highly-compassionate Avatars teach do you not understand? Unconditional means "no conditions," period. Avatar worship is CONDITIONAL and not pure, unless you understood that ALL beings are literally Avatars, as the real original meaning of the word clearly states. Idol worship is conditional. Seeing beyond all worldly idols/bodies/personifications is a step towards Unconditional Awareness. The latter is the state of consciousness that those like Sri Krishna and I are most aligned with.

Peteyzen, I propose a major lesson for you to learn, if you choose to accept this, of course: Learn to recognize and equally appreciate the love and help of ALL beings in creation, even those that you may perceive are less than holy or less than Self-realized than those Avatars you put upon a pedestal. Even the most "evil" of men and women incarnated here for the same general purpose as those Avatars you research, which is to taste human experience and bring Love and Light to the world, and I tell you with great confidence that ALL HUMANS that have ever incarnated have contributed some degree of bringing Love and Light to this world. Using my extreme example, no infant was ever born an "evil dictator," nor was any infant ever born "fully God-realized," yet ALL were born as very loving. Therefore, ALL human incarnations have brought Love and Light to the world, no matter what choices are later made to determine their human destiny. Learn to accept darshan from the hearts of ALL God's creatures, without egoic bias and favoritism. Sai Baba taught/teaches this. So did Jesus. So does Mother Meera. So does Neem Karoli Baba. So does Mahatma Gandhi. So does Krishna, Babaji, Anandamayi Ma, Ramana Maharshi, Gautama Buddha, etc. My "challenge" for you is simply to step into a broader understanding of what Unconditional Love really IS, beyond the special categories and too-specific definitions into a broad, general understanding of equality and Oneness. Recognize God and goodness EQUALLY in EVERY FACE! <3

[amy green]

Some say I understand, others say I don't. If I should live my whole life in others boxes (labels, definitions call it what you want) then I would be quite confused all the time. The fact that nothing is highlighted on my computer might be considered a sign :wink:

But if I let others take away my Avatar because they do not see it in themselves or because I do not live up to their standards of what an Avatar is, then I will only do myself wrong. Many Clairvoyants (mediums call it what you want) have said that my ability is to see the god in everyone so that is what I will do. If people choose not to see their Avatar in themselves but in others then that is their chocie, their limitation on themselves - which is fair because the other view might just limit them even more... or something :dontknow:
As I see it, definitions are useful in helping to understand what someone's belief is.
I believe that we all have a spark from the divine within us, and that this spark can grow the more spiritually developed we become. This is not the same thing at all as being an avatar.

Jesus was an avatar.

I share peteyzen's and krishna's understanding of what constitutes an avatar.

[Sourcerer]

*sigh*
so many separations for no reason at all
so many standards impossible to live up to
looking down on that which one does not see worthy
when will the madness stop
when will everyone realize that they do not only have the potential
they are the potential
we are what we are
we create the labels ourselves
so why create so much separation instead of unity
if one believes in the specialty of these Avatars then why not act in their beauty and rise to their example and be one yourself instead of making lines in the sand?

That was a very beautiful, poetic expression of the Divine Truth of Unconditional Love that the original post was all about, as you deeply understand the necessity of transcending limited human bias. :wink:

[amy green]

Sourcerer - I see that your signature is "recognize God and goodness in every face" (Babaji). No doubt a noble aspiration but one I cannot share.

I expect you deem me as having "human bias" since I cannot recognize God in the face of a murderer, a rapist, a warmongerer....need I go on? Are they all avatars to you?

I know that it's possible to disapprove of the act/behaviour whilst not condemning the person. I do recognise that we all have the potential to develop the goodness within.

[Sourcerer]

Sourcerer - I see that your signature is "recognize God and goodness in every face" (Babaji). No doubt a noble aspiration but one I cannot share. I expect you deem me as having "human bias" since I cannot recognize God in the face of a murderer, a rapist, a warmongerer....need I go on? Are they all avatars too? I know that it's possible to disapprove of the act/behaviour whilst not condemning the person. I do recognise that we all have the potential to develop the goodness within.

That is fine, my dear, and I see you as brave and honest with sharing that expression of feeling and belief within you. Indeed, by "recognizing," what Babaji and I mean has nothing to do with outer appearances and seeing the physical human face, but rather it is about an Inner Seeing with the Spiritual Heart, the Higher Self. Seeing God and goodness within doesn't really refer to the human level but the Higher Self level, if you will, although it does recognize "goodness" in a human, moral sense. Understand that I created this thread using a very different definition/perspective of "avatar," and, contrary to what some who visit this thread may react with, I in no way show disapproval against those who continue to use the word Avatar in the conventional sense. I merely offered another, unconventional perspective, that those very Avatars actually teach, themselves. No one is asked here to confront and look into the face of a rapist and "see God," in any physical sense, but rather to create the necessary emotional/psychic space in which one could "objectively" perceive and FEEL that a spark of the Divine is within such a misguided person as well. Of course, what Babaji and I am suggesting here is something that takes much learning for most people to accept, and is not expected to be something learned overnight. My dear, I have human bias as well, because, as I clearly stated in my third post in this thread, I too am expressing through a human vessel. With some people, I also sometimes use "Avatar" like Peteyzen and Krishna do when referring to those like Sathya Sai Baba, while at the same time being very clear within myself that ALL beings are "descended from God," period. No question about it, in my mind and heart, and that is why I FEEL such great compassion for EVERYONE and EVERYTHING, and it grows in intensity faster than ever for me now. This is no naive, ungrounded "I love everyone" attitude in which I may, for example, walk up to a gang member holding a gun and hand him a flower. :D None of that. This is all about FEELING and BEING Divine Love, within myself, and naturally radiating this expression of Unconditional Love to all. There is no "full God-realization" in human embodiment for anyone, and thus I find great humor and love in doing the best job I may, as I allow myself to do so through FEELING/BEING IT.

Not that my perceptions/opinions here actually matter at all, but, for the record, I sincerely appreciate you and see you as being much more honest about such examples as you gave me than a great many "spiritual" people when it comes to their feelings about such matters. No, I wouldn't call a rapist or murderer an "Avatar" in the sense that Peteyzen, for example, defines one. Of course not. For anyone paying close attention here to my posts, my definition was obviously a much different one, and I in no way show disrespect towards the common, conventional definition. Again, I simply defined Avatar from a broad, Higher Self-inspired perspective.

Thank you for indulging me and also sharing your opinions, everyone. This is my last post for this particular thread. HUGS, ALL. :tongue: :hug2: :hug3:

[amy green]

Yes I understood you didn't mean literally looking into the physical face of a murderer (etc) and recognising God. (That would be ridiculous!) I made the distinction of the act not being the same as the person, i.e I have already acknowledged the person as having the spark/goodness within them. Such a spark may not be evident (at least to myself) when looking into the face of a murderer or a rapist (to take just 2 examples) since they are clearly not developing their potential.

I'm glad that you acknowledge that you are not using the term avatar in the conventional usage. I wondered if you differentiated having the god within us as being different from being an avatar but I see you say that the above is your last post on this thread.

[Amilius777]

After all the things I have read about Sathya Sai baba I could not ever accept him as an avatar. I don't even want to go into it about how much I can not handle Sathya baba. If anyone wishes to have a private conversation with me they can.

Anyways moving on:

I think the idea of an avatar has been misunderstood. It is just a God-realized liberated being. This type of soul has found oneness with God or is sent back to earth as a guide for others to reach perfection. Buddhists call them Bodhisattva. And Roman Catholics call them "Saint" as the example of St. Francis of Assisi.

Personally the word "avatar" is a little too lofty. I think it is misunderstood with Vishnu's descent as Krishna. When in reality Vishnu is a representation of the cosmic principle of preservation. It would just mean that the preservation principle or "Vishnu" was manifested in Krishna's life.

I don't think anybody in physical form or even astral form can be 100% God. Christianity has a method they created for Jesus in the Middle Ages. It is called the Hypostatic Union. Jesus has two natures but one person. Jesus is fully divine and fully human but one individual. Jesus the man and Jesus the God are two different states of consciousness. Jesus was very limited to his physical form and even said- "I do nothing of Myself". And he says- "No one knows the hour, not even the Son, only the Father in Heaven". Jesus was pure of heart, God-realized, and detached from ego. But he wasn't perfect and even said that his perfection would come from after resurrection and ascension. Why? because he would be in complete oneness with God when he breaks through every form of existence.

[Enlightener]

Sourcerer, if you are reading this, I LOVE YOU!!

Thankyou so much, you are a thrilling inspiration to me.

I believe everyone here should listen to the words of this one, he/she shines SO brightly!!!

Bless you Sourcerer, I look forward to seeing you on the forums, God Bless <3

[Anandini.Devotee]

We are all avatars yeah but will need to awaken our potential so that's what separates avatars like Yogananda from the rest of us

[Moksha]

An Avatar is a being who has defeated his Demonic Ego consciousness and is a true channel for God, are you one of these? i doubt it, a real Avatar never even calls himself an Avatar.

Humility should be the foundation to everyone's Spiritual Path.

[Enlightener]

What Sourcerer is getting at... (for the slow ones)

Is that we are ALL GOD. We are already an Avatar, we just don't know it yet.

We are ALL Masters. We are all creating our reality at an equal, and to our own being, equal to each other.

[peteyzen]

I would like one last time to make the distinction. You gentlemen are talking of avadhutta`s, someone who overcomes their ego through effort whilst a human.
An avatar is a tool of the divine sent down for the upraising of humanity, an avatar doesnt have chakras or a soul...because they dont need them, they are pure ataman, god in human form.
Yes we are all god, but whilst in human form we are not the same as avatars.

[Moksha]

I would like one last time to make the distinction. You gentlemen are talking of avadhutta`s, someone who overcomes their ego through effort whilst a human.
An avatar is a tool of the divine sent down for the upraising of humanity, an avatar doesnt have chakras or a soul...because they dont need them, they are pure ataman, god in human form.
Yes we are all god, but whilst in human form we are not the same as avatars.

I disagree, Yogananda was an Avatar he spoke of his many past lives how could he if he had no soul? The word Atman actually mean soul.

[peteyzen]

Hi Moksha,
Yogananda (if this is the kriya yoga, babji devotee) wasn`t an avatar. He was an avadhutta. he was a human who raised himself up through guidance of gurus and his own effort. An avatar is the divine incarnated purely to uplift mankind, like krishna. An avatar comes fully god conscious. This is the difference, and the point I have been trying to make since this thread began.
Atman and soul are different. The atman is the divine spark, it is what we realise when we reach enlightenment, the soul is the recorder of our lives like the hard drive of our existence, it stores our akashic record and the growth (development) of our spiritual progress.

[Moksha]

your wrong

[peteyzen]

Well Moksha, that is possible, I`m not sure if in your eyes Im wrong on everything above, or just some of it. But you know, one day we will both know who is right, and on that day my friend neither of us will care, so god bless you cause you seem a nice person.

[Moksha]

:) Krishna was a Purna avatar which is a full incarnation of God, its well known that Krishna was Rama and Narayana in his previous lives.

Yogananda was a Khanda avatar , check out the differences.

God bless,

[peteyzen]

Hi Moksha,
I have never heard the term `khanda` avatar, the only khanda I know of is the sikh symbol, and I cant find any references, could you enlighten me to what it means and how you see it being different from a a purna avatar?
regards
peteyzen

[Moksha]

The eternal, Omni present , unchanging Spirit has neither a corporeal nor heavenly form called God. Nor as the Lord God creator does he fashion a form in which He then deigns to dwell among his creatures. Rather, He makes himself known through the divinity in worldly instruments. Many are the voices that have inter-mediated between God and Man, Khanda Avatars or partial incarnations in God-knowing Souls. Less common are the Purna avatars , Liberated beings who are fully one with God; their return to Earth is to fulfill a God ordained mission.

Yogananda was a Purna avatar he found liberation many life times ago. Sorry i got mixed up.

[Amilius777]

I have heard of Yogananda being called an avatar. In fact he called himself one. This is one of the things that always bothered me about Yogananda.

He seems very arrogant and egotistical in a lot of his writings about himself unlike Buddha, Jesus, Shankara, etc.

His disciple Kriyananda is obsessed with Yogananda being the reincarnation of Jesus. Sorry but majority of people who claim to be Jesus are usually cult leaders, psychopaths, and people like Charles Manson. If Yogananda did claim to be Jesus directly I would have burned all the books I have of him because that is just pure blasphemy if such a thing exists.

Yogananda could not have been "God-incarnate". Just read his articles in his East-West magazines he published in the 1930s and late 20s. He clearly endorses Hitler and Mussolini! No one with omniscience would have gotten that wrong!

Even Edgar Cayce a flawed psychic hinted that Hitler would become a horrible person if he did such and such.

Yogananda also claimed to be William the Conqueror. When asked why he was such a horrible villain in history he claimed that God told him to leave Spirit and become a warrior and destroy evil. This is so unlike being Christ-like. Everything Christ stood against Yogananda claimed to have been. Nice going papaji!

Not even Krishna is that violent. All his work in the Gita is mostly symbolic. Then again I "PERSONALLY" believe Krishna to have been a Theophany. That is basically in the Western belief an "appearance" or "manifestation" Of God Himself to enlightened individuals. This happens a lot in the Old Testament. These are manifestations of the Christ-Spirit as an angelic being, not so much an individual human like Jesus Christ.

-BTW- edit: Whoever said that the ego is demonic in the above posts needs to rethink the word "demonic". Demonic means murder, child pedophilia, molestation, violence, pure hatred, and sexual deviance.

I like how a lot of Gurus always call things like alchoholism, sex, and money as demonic when in fact these are just human weaknesses. A lot of religious priests do the same thing in west and you find out they do everything from the above I stated as what is "demonic". Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?????????

[Vinayaka]

Amilius, I agree with you. It seems the term 'avatar' is just another honorarium or title word added to you to indicate greatness, and frankly for me, reeks of egoism. Not so bad if its just the followers doing it. Kind of like Sri, then Sri Sri, then Sri Sri Sri, ad infinitum.

In Saivism, there is no concept of avatar. We believe in great teachers, but certainly not that God Himself can come to this human level. To me, that belittles God. I mean, why would an all-loving, omnipresient, causal God ever need to do that? It makes no sense that He would want to do that at all. If it;s to help humanity, as the claim goes, he could just do that from the plane of existence (inner third, causal plane) from where he is. And indeed, he already does, through unseen mystical ways.

Of course, others are free to believe whatever they want.

[Amilius777]

I agree too. Its sad because Yogananda has some wonderful info but also some strange stuff that makes him discreditable.

I went to a really great clairvoyance who I usually go to. When I asked her about Yogananda and if he was good she said- "I get a positive energy". When I asked- "He claimed to be an avatar. A liberated soul who after many-" She stopped me and said- "I can't believe that. Such things don't exist." And I asked is he being egotistical? She goes- "Yes. Majority of Indian gurus have an oversize ego because of their religious culture and misinterpretation."

So I asked again then how is he positive? She goes- "I believe if you are meant to teach and be a teacher then that is your destiny. He was meant to be a teacher despite his own personal beliefs about himself or religion."

I thought that was a pretty honest answer.

[Vinayaka]

I don't think many of the Indian gurus are purposeful crooks or egotistical. Certainly they vary a great deal. Its really a very complicated scenario, and varies for one to another. Often its the devotees who put such-and-such up on a pedesatal. Ramana Maharshi is an example.

[Anandini.Devotee]

Def not are all frauds that's like saying there's no such thing as an enlightened being

[Anandini.Devotee]

Also how can you say what an avatar is? Your a human viewing from a human perspective

[Nathaniel]

The physical body is essentially an avatar for who you truly are, your higher self, your soul. It doesn't matter whether you wake up to this knowledge whilst in your human form or not, you are still an avatar.

The people who are held with such high regard, Christ, Buddha etc were no greater than you or I. Yes, they were in touch with their true selves and the spirit world and yes they were wise and kind and loving, but this is something every person on the planet has the ability to do.

The creator does not incarnate, doing so would be far too much for a physical body to handle.

[Vinayaka]

Some Hindu sects believe in avatars, and some don't. Some Hindus believe in Christ, and some don't. So it all depends on which Hindus you talk to.