Purpose Of Ego

[Jayp]

What do we all feel is the purpose of ego in terms of our spirituality and in particular spiritual growth?

Apparently, according to some the purest definition of ego is the individuated consciousness of infinate being.
Whilst I believe it true that ego exists for a purpose, I think it's main aspect is to be worked around in a way that it is controlled and unlimiting to the rest of our beings, yet to take it away completely would make us no longer human in that way as it is part of the totality of being.

Of course I don't profess this as Knowledge or Truth, just my thoughts and perceptions.

There are battles between ego and spirituality, according to some, yet others believe they go hand in hand as part of the ultimate experiencing. And it could be argued that ego is our way of percieving reality.

I find there are many pro's and cons to ego, it serves a purpose yet it seems a hinderance - is there an ultimate way around this, are there ways to harness ego into spirituality as a positive aspect?
I would especially like to know, as an individual on your own path of spirituality and development, what you feel the purpose and functions of your ego is in terms of your spiritual development - how has it hindered/helped/advanced/limited this 'progress' or journey?

[andrew g]

What do we all feel is the purpose of ego in terms of our spirituality and in particular spiritual growth?

Apparently, according to some the purest definition of ego is the individuated consciousness of infinate being.
Whilst I believe it true that ego exists for a purpose, I think it's main aspect is to be worked around in a way that it is controlled and unlimiting to the rest of our beings, yet to take it away completely would make us no longer human in that way as it is part of the totality of being.

Of course I don't profess this as Knowledge or Truth, just my thoughts and perceptions.

There are battles between ego and spirituality, according to some, yet others believe they go hand in hand as part of the ultimate experiencing. And it could be argued that ego is our way of percieving reality.

I find there are many pro's and cons to ego, it serves a purpose yet it seems a hinderance - is there an ultimate way around this, are there ways to harness ego into spirituality as a positive aspect?
I would especially like to know, as an individual on your own path of spirituality and development, what you feel the purpose and functions of your ego is in terms of your spiritual development - how has it hindered/helped/advanced/limited this 'progress' or journey?

I really really like that definition, its very elegant.

Of course, when many talk of ego what they are talking of is the separate self, or the mind identity - and thats a little different from the definition above, but thats ok.

One way of combining the two definitions is of talking in terms of altered ego and divine ego. In this way its not so much that we let go of ego or that ego is destroyed in the process of disidentification and realization, what happens is more of a a transcending from an altered ego to a divine ego, a transcending in which the belief is released that we are in control of our destiny and have power and control over life.

[hybrid]

if we define ego as an impostor self, then its purpose is to be unmask.

[andrew g]

if we define ego as an impostor self, then its purpose is to be unmask.

yes, thats a nice way of looking at it too. So many ways to look at 'ego'.

[Portto]

So many ways to look at 'ego'.
Can you guess why?

[andrew g]

Funnily enough while you were writing this I was writing you a message on another thread. I deleted it. I liked the point you made though.

I could probably take a guess, but what are your thoughts?

[Portto]

I could probably take a guess, but what are your thoughts?
We can see imaginary things in any number of ways.
Real things can be seen one way only.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

We can see imaginary things in any number of ways.
Real things can be seen one way only.
Yep, i really don't have an understanding of why people set a portion of themselves aside and label it 'ego'.. it is who/what they are.. The whole 'ego' idea is a huge distraction from Living Well..

Be well..

[andrew g]

We can see imaginary things in any number of ways.


Whats your definition of ego? What are you saying is imaginary exactly?

[andrew g]

Greetings..


Yep, i really don't have an understanding of why people set a portion of themselves aside and label it 'ego'.. it is who/what they are.. The whole 'ego' idea is a huge distraction from Living Well..

Be well..

Are you saying there that ego is who/what we are? What are you suggesting 'ego' is exactly?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Are you saying there that ego is who/what we are? What are you suggesting 'ego' is exactly?
Hi Andrew: I'm saying there is no 'ego', it's a contrived excuse to talk about those elements of who/what we are. that we wish we weren't, but we are..

Be well..

[Emmalevine]

I think ego is our humanity - it emcompasses our personality and sense of identity, with thoughts and emotions. It's what we need to live our lives here on Earth in a physcial body, separate from the Whole. It has its dark side but I don't believe that the ego entirely consists of our negativity. The ego has many positive functions and we need it as a tool. It's only when we get too caught up in it and forget who we are that it can cause problems.

[andrew g]

Greetings..


Hi Andrew: I'm saying there is no 'ego', it's a contrived excuse to talk about those elements of who/what we are. that we wish we weren't, but we are..

Be well..

Ok. Hmmm. That sentence didnt make a lot of sense to me. What do you think that those people who talk about 'ego' see it as? Are you saying there is no reality of a mind constructed false identity for most people? Are you saying that the 'separate (or imposter) self' isnt a reality for most people?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Hi Starbuck: What is the source of 'ego', isn't it unique to the individuality, wholly dependent on that individuality? if the individuality didn't exist, neither would that aspect of it that we label 'ego'.. 'ego' is just a 'talking point' about who/what we are, it is not separate from our existence.. ego is a description of our individuality.

Be well..

[Portto]

Whats your definition of ego?

We can define it in any number of ways, for the reason listed previously.
There's plenty of nice definitions around, including this thread.

What are you saying is imaginary exactly?
You know very well. :smile:

[Wind of Grace]

Ego for me is a word used for depicting our uniquely individual personal expression(personality).

We cannot entirely erase our personality/ego while we are incarnated here on this Earth, but we can realize that the basic Source of each persons Beingness is without any identification at all. This realization is of primary importance if we are to understand that we are all fundamentally One.

Knowing that we are One allows us to enjoy the diversity of our individual expressions without making any one of them more 'valuable' or 'better' than the next.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Ok. Hmmm. That sentence didnt make a lot of sense to me. What do you think that those people who talk about 'ego' see it as? Are you saying there is no reality of a mind constructed false identity for most people? Are you saying that the 'separate (or imposter) self' isnt a reality for most people?
Hi Andrew: I'm saying, there is no 'imposter self', that is you pretending that you aren't the 'imposter' that you are.. 'you' as in those that use ego to distance themselves from aspects of themselves that they don't like.. even that they do like, just accept who/what you 'are'..

Be well..

[andrew g]

We can define it in any number of ways, for the reason listed previously.
There's plenty of nice definitions around, including this thread.


:smile:

Hmmm. In suggesting that ego is imaginary, you must be applying some meaning to it, in the way that if someone says that santa claus is imaginary, they are thinking of a big guy with a beard etc....If ego is imaginary, what is this thing that you are suggesting is imaginary?

[andrew g]

Greetings..


Hi Andrew: I'm saying, there is no 'imposter self', that is you pretending that you aren't the 'imposter' that you are.. 'you' as in those that use ego to distance themselves from aspects of themselves that they don't like.. even that they do like, just accept who/what you 'are'..

Be well..

Well I agree there is no imposter self (hence the word 'imposter), but would you say that for many people the reality IS of an imposter self?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Well I agree there is no imposter self (hence the word 'imposter), but would you say that for many people the reality IS of an imposter self?
No, everyone inherently knows who/what they are.. and, at some level of conscious awareness, they choose their place in the environment..

Be well..

[andrew g]

Greetings..


No, everyone inherently knows who/what they are.. and, at some level of conscious awareness, they choose their place in the environment..

Be well..

So if someone says to you, 'Hi Bob, I am Mike, and Im a generous person', is Mike inherently generous? Or would you say he is inherently generous AND meân?

[Portto]

Hmmm. In suggesting that ego is imaginary, you must be applying some meaning to it, in the way that if someone says that santa claus is imaginary, they are thinking of a big guy with a beard etc....If ego is imaginary, what is this thing that you are suggesting is imaginary?
Imaginary is whatever we imagine ego to be.

[andrew g]

Imaginary is whatever we imagine ego to be.

And what are you imagining this imaginary ego to be?

[Portto]

And what are you imagining this imaginary ego to be?
I never created any definition for ego. I read about it from books and forums. As I said, there are plenty of definitions around.

[andrew g]

I never created any definition for ego. I read about it from books and forums. As I said, there are plenty of definitions around.

Yes. But for you to say 'ego' is imaginary compared to something else that is real, you must be distinguishing it in your mind in some way in order to say that it is NOT that which is real. So what are you imagining this imaginary thing to be in order to say that it is not that which is real?

Of to put another way, how do you know that it is not that which is real?

[Wind of Grace]

Portto... I never created any definition for ego. I read about it from books and forums. As I said, there are plenty of definitions around.


Here's another Portto:

ego = personality (the unique expression of Source in an individuated human form)

[Portto]

So what are you imagining this imaginary thing to be in order to say that it is not that which is real?
I can go with "a separate volitional self."

[Portto]

ego = personality (the unique expression of Source in an individuated human form)
Yep, that's a good definition.

[andrew g]

Here's another Portto:

ego = personality (the unique expression of Source in an individuated human form)

Yes, thats similar to the pure definition offered in the O.P. I like it, though I struggle with the word 'personality' a bit because of the connotations of a 'person'. I think 'flavour' resonates with me.

[andrew g]

I can go with "a separate volitional self."

Thank you! Phew! :)

[Wind of Grace]

andrew g... Yes, thats similar to the pure definition offered in the O.P. I like it, though I struggle with the word 'personality' a bit because of the connotations of a 'person'. I think 'flavour' resonates with me.

I like personality better, since our individuated human form is referred to being a person on this planet.

[Portto]

Phew! :)
:smile: :D Yes, that's what happens when we get entangled in illusions.

[kaze]

Is Our Fate A Lifetime Of Hate?

Lovelovelove.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

I like dropping the word-games.. Hi, i am called 'Bob', among other things, but generally people that know me say 'Bob' to get my attentiion or in reference to me.. let's get to know each other, without having to dance this word-game.. or, is that your preference?.. do we need to do the illusion and ego and separate and volitional dances, or can we just talk?

Be well..

[andrew g]

I like personality better, since our individuated human form is referred to being a person on this planet.

The problem I see with the word is that many humans are identified with their perceived personality, they believe their personality is who they are e.g I am Mike and I am generous. I feel the separate self is implied in the word - a 'person'ality. Because of the connotation of that, I would tend to say that each human being is a unique flavour. Or a unique colour of the rainbow would work for me. I often just find it a little softer and less problematic. A way of talking about uniqueness without necessarily engaging the identified mind. Though it probably still does anyway!

[andrew g]

Greetings..

I like dropping the word-games.. Hi, i am called 'Bob', among other things, but generally people that know me say 'Bob' to get my attentiion or in reference to me.. let's get to know each other, without having to dance this word-game.. or, is that your preference?.. do we need to do the illusion and ego and separate and volitional dances, or can we just talk?

Be well..

If someone says, 'Hi, I am Mike and I am generous' - they ARE playing a game, they are trying to persuade you and themselves of who they are. Its a self-image game (and a control game). Thats why Im wondering if you would see Mike as being inherently generous or if you would see him as being inherently generous AND mean....?

[Portto]

I like dropping the word-games.. Hi, i am called 'Bob', among other things, but generally people that know me say 'Bob' to get my attentiion or in reference to me.. let's get to know each other, without having to dance this word-game.. or, is that your preference?.. do we need to do the illusion and ego and separate and volitional dances, or can we just talk?
Nice one, Tzu!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

If someone says, 'Hi, I am Mike and I am generous' - they ARE playing a game, they are trying to persuade you and themselves of who they are. Its a self-image game (and a control game). Thats why Im wondering if you would see Mike as being inherently generous or if you would see him as being inherently generous AND mean....?
Hi Andrew: I would chat with Mike a while, i wouldn't prejudge him.. generally, i trust people until they give me a reason not to, so.. i think Mike might be generous.. let's find out.. "hi, Mike, nice to meet you..."

Be well..

[Emmalevine]

Greetings..

Hi Starbuck: What is the source of 'ego', isn't it unique to the individuality, wholly dependent on that individuality? if the individuality didn't exist, neither would that aspect of it that we label 'ego'.. 'ego' is just a 'talking point' about who/what we are, it is not separate from our existence.. ego is a description of our individuality.

Be well..
Yes that is very much how I see the ego - an expression of individuality while we are on the physical plane. Once we leave, the ego no longer exists as that part of ourselves has gone.

[Wind of Grace]

andrew g... The problem I see with the word is that many humans are identified with their perceived personality, they believe their personality is who they are e.g I am Mike and I am generous. I feel the separate self is implied in the word - a 'person'ality. Because of the connotation of that, I would tend to say that each human being is a unique flavour. Or a unique colour of the rainbow would work for me. I often just find it a little softer and less problematic. A way of talking about uniqueness without necessarily engaging the identified mind. Though it probably still does anyway!
I'm reposting what I shared a little earlier on in this thread, and adding a little more to it... To me, it is important to remember that our personality will remain with us for as long as we are present here on this Earth. I don't feel that negating it in any way is necessary. Integrating it with a broader understanding of our existence is enriching though if we are to grasp onto the realization of the basic nature of the Source that we fundamentally are.

-----------

We cannot entirely erase our personality/ego while we are incarnated here on this Earth, but we can realize that the basic Source of each persons Beingness is without any identification at all. This realization is of primary importance if we are to understand that we are all fundamentally One.

Knowing that we are One allows us to enjoy the diversity of our individual expressions without making any one of them more 'valuable' or 'better' than the next. We appear as separate beings, yet fundamentally speaking, we are the one and same Source expressing ourselves in diversely unique ways as persons with personalities on this planet.

[Emmalevine]

The problem I see with the word is that many humans are identified with their perceived personality, they believe their personality is who they are e.g I am Mike and I am generous. I feel the separate self is implied in the word - a 'person'ality. Because of the connotation of that, I would tend to say that each human being is a unique flavour. Or a unique colour of the rainbow would work for me. I often just find it a little softer and less problematic. A way of talking about uniqueness without necessarily engaging the identified mind. Though it probably still does anyway!

Yes - or identity, such as when people say "Hello I am Mike. I am a student." or "I am a builder." I'm sure most of us do this though. I like what you say about 'flavour.' I also like 'expression'.

[andrew g]

Greetings..


Hi Andrew: I would chat with Mike a while, i wouldn't prejudge him.. generally, i trust people until they give me a reason not to, so.. i think Mike might be generous.. let's find out.. "hi, Mike, nice to meet you..."

Be well..

Ok. But what Im asking you is if you think that most people think that they HAVE a personality? When we believe that we have a personality, we have created a false identity for our selves. The 'I' that creates this false identity IS the false identity. And most humans believe that they are this false identity. For example, I am John and I am stupid. I am Steve and I am athletic. I am Dave and I loyal. I am Jane and I am soft. I am Ann and I am good at Maths.

When we do this we experience our selves as existing autonomously. Its an experience in which we experience ourselves as separate from life to a high degree.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..


Ok. But what Im asking you is if you think that most people think that they HAVE a personality?

Let's look at "Ok", first.. you probably found my post a little uncomfortable, you realized you are prejudging people.. now, you ask me questions, trying to entice me into the prejudging game, and.. i'm just plain over it.. so, why don't you tell us what you think?

Be well..

[andrew g]

I'm reposting what I shared a little earlier on in this thread, and adding a little more to it... To me, it is important to remember that our personality will remain with us for as long as we are present here on this Earth. I don't feel that negating it in any way is necessary. Integrating it with a broader understanding of our existence is enriching though if we are to grasp onto the realization of the basic nature of the Source that we fundamentally are.

-----------

We cannot entirely erase our personality/ego while we are incarnated here on this Earth, but we can realize that the basic Source of each persons Beingness is without any identification at all. This realization is of primary importance if we are to understand that we are all fundamentally One.

Knowing that we are One allows us to enjoy the diversity of our individual expressions without making any one of them more 'valuable' or 'better' than the next. We appear as separate beings, yet we are the one and same Source expressing ourselves in diversely unique ways as persons with personalities on this planet.

Yes, I resonate with that for the most part. What I would say is that we have to accept ourselves as all aspects, possibilities and potentials is order to be at peace. Each human may well be a unique flavour but we have to put this to one side as irrelevent whilst in the process of self-acceptance and peace. The irony and paradox is that when we are at peace with all potentials and possibilities of who we are, the unique flavour then shines forth without the restriction of the separate self, which essentially acts like a filter and is actually constituted of nothing more than a bunch of beliefs/understandings about 'who we are'.

So yes, there is still flavour (or personality if you prefer), but there is no attachment to this flavour/personality in peace. We accept ourselves as good and bad, clever and stupid, kind and unkind etc...at all times.

[andrew g]

Greetings..


Let's look at "Ok", first.. you probably found my post a little uncomfortable, you realized you are prejudging people.. now, you ask me questions, trying to entice me into the prejudging game, and.. i'm just plain over it.. so, why don't you tell us what you think?

Be well..

No, I didnt find it uncomfortable, I am not a huge pre-judger and Im not trying to entice you into prejudging at all, Im trying to get clear about your understandings on this subject of the imposed self (or separate self, or mind identity).

This is the sentence that Im trying to get clear about with you...''everyone inherently knows who/what they are''.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

No, I didnt find it uncomfortable, I am not a huge pre-judger and Im not trying to entice you into prejudging at all, Im trying to get clear about your understandings on this subject of the imposed self (or separate self, or mind identity).
We are exactly what we see and experience.. we are not the stories we tell each about those experiences.. you did prejudge Mike, he may very well have been sincere genuine and generous, but.. you are too busy trying to find games to play to actually have an authentic experience.. it is your 'personality', Andrew, accept it..

Be well..

[Wind of Grace]

andrew g... there is no attachment to this flavour/personality in peace. We accept ourselves as good and bad, clever and stupid, kind and unkind etc...at all times.

I wholly agree with this... and I've written a personal quote that captures what you've conveyed.

"To experience Peace is to know that you are beyond your personality expression, and beyond all that is considered good or evil. Peace is the very core of your eternal existence, and it surpasses all that is perceivable, for it is the Peace of simply Being."

[andrew g]

Greetings..


We are exactly what we see and experience.. we are not the stories we tell each about those experiences.. you did prejudge Mike, he may very well have been sincere genuine and generous, but.. you are too busy trying to find games to play to actually have an authentic experience.. it is your 'personality', Andrew, accept it..

Be well..

I dont know a Mike, I was using it as an example to try and understand your understandings.

What do you mean 'we are exactly what we see and experience'?

[andrew g]

I wholly agree with this... and I've written a personal quote that captures what you've conveyed.

"To experience Peace is to know that you are beyond your personality expression, and beyond all that is considered good or evil. Peace is the very core of your eternal existence, and it surpasses all that is perceivable, for it is the Peace of simply Being."

Very nice :)

[Wind of Grace]

andrew g... Very nice :)

A warm thank you to you Andrew :)

You're personality is a beautifully magnificent colour of our glowing human rainbow :)

[andrew g]

A warm thank you to you Andrew :)

You're personality is a beautifully magnificent colour of our glowing human rainbow :)

Why thankyou WoG! :)

[andrew g]

Yes - or identity, such as when people say "Hello I am Mike. I am a student." or "I am a builder." I'm sure most of us do this though. I like what you say about 'flavour.' I also like 'expression'.

Thanks Starbuck, yes I like expression too and I agree that saying these things is pretty much unavoidable. I think the key is in not believing our own hype, if that makes any sense.

I was talking with my family this morning and we realized in a somewhat joking way, that everything we say, we basically have to take back, if we want to be at peace. Its believing our own hype that creates the attachment. ''Dont believe the hype'' - An old rap tune I used to like. You familiar with that one kaze?

[kaze]

the universe gives unconditional love

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..


What do you mean 'we are exactly what we see and experience'?

I'm sorry, Andrew.. you need a dictionary, or google the meanings.. i can't interpret those words and that phrase for you.. the words mean what they say, you will need to figure it our for yourself..

Be well..

[kaze]

we are the now, to be enlightened you understand complete with nature that your in the now. just you understand the now and its messages. i wouldnt wish my mind on anybody, to much reasoning with reasoning, im to messed up with love

[andrew g]

Greetings..


I'm sorry, Andrew.. you need a dictionary, or google the meanings.. i can't interpret those words and that phrase for you.. the words mean what they say, you will need to figure it our for yourself..

Be well..

Its not the words Im struggling with its the sentence.

Would you say that we are also what we dont see and dont experience?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Its not the words Im struggling with its the sentence.

Would you say that we are also what we dont see and dont experience?
Hi Andrew: I suggest that you spend some time with the words i have shared with you before wandering further into speculation.. the answer to your question is 'No', but you will not understand and i will not explain.. can you respect that simple truth?

Be well..

[Lisa]

we are the now, to be enlightened you understand complete with nature that your in the now. just you understand the now and its messages. i wouldnt wish my mind on anybody, to much reasoning with reasoning, im to messed up with love

Exactly- and nice- Kaze!

[andrew g]

Greetings..


Hi Andrew: I suggest that you spend some time with the words i have shared with you before wandering further into speculation.. the answer to your question is 'No', but you will not understand and i will not explain.. can you respect that simple truth?

Be well..

I wasnt speculating, I was asking you a question. But if you dont want to explain, well I guess I can cope with that.

[Lisa]

Greetings..


Hi Andrew: I suggest that you spend some time with the words i have shared with you before wandering further into speculation.. the answer to your question is 'No', but you will not understand and i will not explain.. can you respect that simple truth?

Be well..

Hey Tzu, let's take a drive through nature- all bridges intact. :smile:

[kaze]

you seen avatar, lol

work together in love

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Hey Tzu, let's take a drive through nature- all bridges intact. :smile:
Hi Lisa: The southern Appalachian Mountains are in their fall splendor, leaves are changing, the air is brisk, and the bridges are mostly good.. heck yeah..

I notice that when folks begin discussing things, there's often disagreements.. i've also noticed on those occasions when people are observing something truly amazing, a sunset, fall splendor, a brilliant rainbow, etc.. a smile and a nod says it all, and there's no disagreement..

Be well..

[BlueSky]

A thought came to mind today:
I wonder how long the disagreements witnessed on some of these threads would go on if they could only continue via private messaging?
I now am also wondering how much agreeing would actually go on if they could only go on via private messaging.
What do you think?

[kaze]

progress feels the best
a shot in the dark, trying to hit the heart, love

[Lisa]

TzuJanLi-

Hi Lisa: The southern Appalachian Mountains are in their fall splendor, leaves are changing, the air is brisk, and the bridges are mostly good.. heck yeah..


I'm There. :hug3:


I notice that when folks begin discussing things, there's often disagreements.. i've also noticed on those occasions when people are observing something truly amazing, a sunset, fall splendor, a brilliant rainbow, etc.. a smile and a nod says it all, and there's no disagreement..


Yes! Nature and stillness are true companions. Ecstasy! I am so in love with it that they could cart me off any day. :icon_flower:

[kaze]

i walk with his blessing you cant harm me. forgive those who trespass on me, their gone, memories, lets pray, 10 fingers forever, forever, pray to god not lucifer, forgive me for my sins while i od, slowly, a-money

[kaze]

i can see the end in the beginning.
so im sprinting not racing

[Ivy]

What do we all feel is the purpose of ego in terms of our spirituality and in particular spiritual growth?

Apparently, according to some the purest definition of ego is the individuated consciousness of infinate being.
Whilst I believe it true that ego exists for a purpose, I think it's main aspect is to be worked around in a way that it is controlled and unlimiting to the rest of our beings, yet to take it away completely would make us no longer human in that way as it is part of the totality of being.

Of course I don't profess this as Knowledge or Truth, just my thoughts and perceptions.

There are battles between ego and spirituality, according to some, yet others believe they go hand in hand as part of the ultimate experiencing. And it could be argued that ego is our way of percieving reality.

I find there are many pro's and cons to ego, it serves a purpose yet it seems a hinderance - is there an ultimate way around this, are there ways to harness ego into spirituality as a positive aspect?
I would especially like to know, as an individual on your own path of spirituality and development, what you feel the purpose and functions of your ego is in terms of your spiritual development - how has it hindered/helped/advanced/limited this 'progress' or journey?

what do you mean by controlled and unlimiting?

Ego is a natural experience of being human...it is realising the separation of the experience as children, and the guidence that leads us back as adults.

Perhaps adults can be too much in a rush to get home, and sometimes forget to enjoy all the joys, excitements, ups and downs that the stories of the ego offer. And sometimes perhaps adults are too egotistical to allow the childs voice of ego to show the way.

I like all of life, I love time to be quiet in the stillness...but, though it is unfasionable, I get alot out of the dramas in which the ego plays. Perhaps they allow me to see another side of life, and another side of all that I am.

Those are my feelings. And with regards to other pieces of the discussion...perhaps the way in which people argue or disagree allows them also to experience another side to themselves.

[kaze]

i don't cruise control
i control the cruise

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..


I like all of life, I love time to be quiet in the stillness...but, though it is unfasionable, I get alot out of the dramas in which the ego plays. Perhaps they allow me to see another side of life, and another side of all that I am.


NICE!! It is refreshing to see someone willing to embrace their fullness, to live the life they have, not just the portion they believe is 'spiritual'..

Be well..

[kaze]

ima god to myself not a god to these other observers
though its been better said

my address is cloud 9, seek and you shall find

[Emmalevine]

what do you mean by controlled and unlimiting?

Ego is a natural experience of being human...it is realising the separation of the experience as children, and the guidence that leads us back as adults.

Perhaps adults can be too much in a rush to get home, and sometimes forget to enjoy all the joys, excitements, ups and downs that the stories of the ego offer. And sometimes perhaps adults are too egotistical to allow the childs voice of ego to show the way.

I like all of life, I love time to be quiet in the stillness...but, though it is unfasionable, I get alot out of the dramas in which the ego plays. Perhaps they allow me to see another side of life, and another side of all that I am.

Those are my feelings. And with regards to other pieces of the discussion...perhaps the way in which people argue or disagree allows them also to experience another side to themselves.

I'm sort of the same. I'm a budding psych and find myself and other's 'darker' sides fascinating. Some books advise conquering negativity but it hasn't worked for me and I think that's because I need and want to work with those parts of me and enjoy them even. I like my time in the peace too - but I can't stay in it for always. I think it is okay to make the most of being human. After all, it's not as if we're here for long :wink:

[hybrid]

porto makes sense. we define the word ego according to our own interpretation. so the source of disagreement is like a "peer review" process. comparing one's model interpretation with another model and discuss the "merits" of their respective interpretation.

first : the word ego according to it's coiner in the english vocabulary came from freud. according to freud's structural model of the human psyche ( yes ego is a conceptual tool in understanding the mind, it's not a part of the brain or something) ego is one of the three interrelated functional entity along with the id and superego. he assigned the ego as responsible for reason. so if there is a malfunction happening in the mind, most likely it is the malfunction of the ego .

second : ego is a latin word for "i", therefore ego is synonymous to self. but then again if we ask ""what is the self?", we are back to square one, because it's one of those words that eludes as to an exact definition. it's like "time", we know what time is but it's hard to put in words it's true meaning.

third : in most spiritual circles, when they talk about dissolving the ego, it is not the personality nor the individuality they were referring to. ego refers to the "sense" of "i" or "self". which also is responsible with the sense of ownership and doership".

so a person without an ego is practically manifested and iconically represented as what we call a selfless person in the likes of mother theresas. although selflessness comes in varying degree.

.

[Wind of Grace]

hybrid... so a person without an ego is practically manifested and iconically represented as what we call a selfless person in the likes of mother theresas. although selflessness comes in varying degree.
Hi Hybrid,

I think that when it is said that someone is selfless, it refers more to how they individually express themselves as a person in this world. A said selfless individual generously devotes of themselves to others in a multitude of ways, it is the opposite of what is termed selfishness(self centeredness).

I really do feel that our ego/personality steadily exists until we pass on from this physical plane of reality. We may understand that there are many more aspects to our existence than solely our personal expression alone, but even with this understanding, the personality remains.

[hybrid]

Hi Hybrid,

I think that when it is said that someone is selfless, it refers more to how they individually express themselves as a person in this world. A said selfless individual generously devotes of themselves to others in a multitude of ways, it is the opposite of what is termed selfishness(self centeredness).
yes, and selflessness can be measured by how strong/rigid or how fluid is one's sense of self.

I really do feel that our ego/personality steadily exists until we pass on from this physical plane of reality. We may understand that there are many more aspects to our existence than solely our personal expression alone, but even with this understanding, the personality remains .
on my post i forgot to include jung;s ego definition which is self-conscious faculty of the mind.

i see personality and the person not as fixed entity with any real substance except only as a summation of the mental attributes of the brain. so it's hard for me to imagine and identify my true self with the personality, personality is a pattern as the result of the movement of the mind.

the self conscious faculty of the mind is the "I" since this is the conscious center of our being. personality is just a "spin" of this "I".

,

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..


so a person without an ego is practically manifested and iconically represented as what we call a selfless person in the likes of mother theresas. although selflessness comes in varying degree.


That is IF you assume that Freud or Jung has correctly described the human mind, , and i do not.. a person is known by their deeds, not their words, and not by the words of others..

Be well..

[hybrid]

Greetings..


That is IF you assume that Freud or Jung has correctly described the human mind, , can you cough up a better model, and its merits?

and i do not.. a person is known by their deeds, not their words, and not by the words of others..

Be well..

yes, but why do we do the things we do?
are our deeds fixed so as to define us permanently?

the deeds or behaviors are the result of the inner workings of the mind and brain. if we want to be a little deep by trying to understand our actions, we must also understand the workings of our brain and mind.

this is why thoughtfulness. meditation, mindfulness, stilling the mind, self reflection, introspection have merits in changing our selves and our behavioral pattern.


.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

can you cough up a better model, and its merits?

Hi Hybrid: see the previous post, please.. "a person is known by their deeds, not their words, and not by the words of others"..

Be well..

[hybrid]

Greetings..


Hi Hybrid: see the previous post, please.. "a person is known by their deeds, not their words, and not by the words of others"..

Be well..

yes, but why do we do the things we do?
are our deeds fixed so as to define us permanently?

the deeds or behaviors are the result of the inner workings of the mind and brain. if we want to be a little deep by trying to understand our actions, we must also understand the workings of our brain and mind.

this is why thoughtfulness. meditation, mindfulness, stilling the mind, self reflection, introspection have merits in changing our selves and our behavioral pattern

[hybrid]

tzu, if i am correct, you wanted to get rid of the concept of ego altogether because it's a distraction.

i see it in a different way, what i see is that there is a distraction already going on and happening.

to remove this distraction, we need to find our the cause of it, and it was found out to be helpful that this cause of distraction as to why people cannot live life well is the ego. it is the representation of distraction.

in your opinion what is the source of distraction? of not living life well? of human suffering?

.
.

[TzuJanLi]

the deeds or behaviors are the result of the inner workings of the mind and brain. if we want to be a little deep by trying to understand our actions, we must also understand the workings of our brain and mind.

this is why thoughtfulness. meditation, mindfulness, stilling the mind, self reflection, introspection has merits in changing our selves and our behavioral pattern.
(It's difficult to keep up with your edits..) Psychologists and Psychiatrists create 'models' as if there were categories that neatly accomodate the workings of the human mind, there are not.. it is a great failing of that branch of science, to generalize rather than seriously study.. i know a research professional that has created a 'spread-sheet' program that analyzes a list of 22 quantifiable variables with statistically significantly better results than the subjective interviewing processes that are currently the mainstay of Psychoanalysis.. and, and, they are finalizing a cross-reference with another firm's biological matrix that has a likelihood of improving the result ratio exponentially.. it's the difference between walking up to the river and figuring out how to cross it each time, or leaving the instructions for the next person.. these people have identified characteristics that are so consistently accurate, and so removed from the conventional notions of psycho-anything, that it is astounding to be a tiny part of ( i helped with some training.. i hope that's what that was)..

Be well..

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

in your opinion what is the source of distraction? of not living life well? of human suffering?
Expectation.

Be well..

[hybrid]

(It's difficult to keep up with your edits..) Psychologists and Psychiatrists create 'models' as if there were categories that neatly accomodate the workings of the human mind, there are not.. it is a great failing of that branch of science, to generalize rather than seriously study.. i know a research professional that has created a 'spread-sheet' program that analyzes a list of 22 quantifiable variables with statistically significantly better results than the subjective interviewing processes that are currently the mainstay of Psychoanalysis.. and, and, they are finalizing a cross-reference with another firm's biological matrix that has a likelihood of improving the result ratio exponentially.. it's the difference between walking up to the river and figuring out how to cross it each time, or leaving the instructions for the next person.. these people have identified characteristics that are so consistently accurate, and so removed from the conventional notions of psycho-anything, that it is astounding to be a tiny part of ( i helped with some training.. i hope that's what that was)..

Be well..
does this mean in the future we will have brain induced personality enhancement drugs?:D

still the principle is the same, deeds are effects and not causes. and deeds are the result of the functions of those quantifiable variable matrices. and the person changes with it.

if you imply that an ego based model is antiquated and should be replaced by much modern scientific analysis which is brain based rather than mind based, im not sure how to think about it or im not even sure if it is acceptable to our society that in the future behaviors are just "engineered". nut as of now, i think that the ego model would work for most humans.
.

.

[hybrid]

Greetings..


Expectation.

Be well..

expectation i feel in not still at the bottom root cause of suffering. but if it is the cause, how do we stop expecting?

.

[TzuJanLi]

expectation i feel in not still at the bottom root cause of suffering. but if it is the cause, how do we stop expecting?.
Stop.

Be well..

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..


if you imply that an ego based model is antiquated

It is, and it is inaccurate..

does this mean in the future we will have brain induced personality enhancement drugs?

I don't know, but.. the current model and results are actually worse than 'sucks', they create more problems than they solve.. but, they fill the pockets of drug companies and people certified as 'professionals' that shouldn't be..

Be well..

[Wind of Grace]

hybrid... i see personality and the person not as fixed entity with any real substance except only as a summation of the mental attributes of the brain. so it's hard for me to imagine and identify my true self with the personality, personality is a pattern as the result of the movement of the mind.
Ok hybrid... so what do you feel is important to know about ego/personality?

Does it have any significant place in our existence at all?

Do you think that it can be completely erased while we are presently in human form here on Earth? ... and if so, what purpose do you feel it would serve?

[Gem]

expectation i feel in not still at the bottom root cause of suffering. but if it is the cause, how do we stop expecting?

.

I agree, I expect the sun to set around seven PM and it doesn't cause me to suffer, and I expect many many many things ... and expectation does not even cause slight discomfort.

I think if I had problems with accepting what does occur, should that differ from my expectation, then I'd feel distressed, and that's what happens to me too... in extreme cases, but then I can feel distressed without suffering a terrible aversion to it, by knowing the mood is impermanant and will soon pass... so distress doesn't actually cause suffering either.

[hybrid]

Ok hybrid... so what do you feel is important to know about ego/personality?

Does it have any significant place in our existence at all?

Do you think that it can be completely erased while we are presently in human form here on Earth? ... and if so, what purpose do you feel it would serve?
the next step in human evolution.
erasing the ego boils down to this - stilling the mind.
since ego is the "I-thought". the first thought out of consciousness,
it becomes incessant and out of control as a result of our post modern civilization. but there will always be personality because personality describes the individual. although i think it is possible that large group of individuals (like humans) can be psychic-ly connected so they always act in unison.


imho thinking has served the humans well in the past, but i believe that a new generation of humans have the capacity to evolve and use intuition more and more as a way of life. i.e. if we do not destroy ourselves first.

.




.

[Jayp]

Freud, however out-dated and contraversial he may now be his theories still remain at the base of psychological study.

Clearly there are many diverse views on what ego is and how we can define it.

According to early psychology (Freud) the ego is part of a persons personality, in terms of children it is where a new part of their personality develops as the young child learns to consider the demands of reality; the ego obeys the reality principle which states that the gratification of impulses must be delayed until the appropriate environmental conditions are found. One could describe it as the executive of the personality; deciding what actions are appropriate and which impulses will be satisified and in what manner.

Would it be entirely unreasonable therefore to consider that ego is as diverse as the human itself and certain aspects at least are as individual as each person, in terms of ego is merely perception, although I think there may be a 'skeleton' of traits which makes up a human ego.

For me, I think we are spiritual beings on a human journey, to abolish the ego completely would be to take away one major aspect of humanness/being human. Surely it is a thing (ego) we can learn from and experience.

[andrew g]

I would say that in the pure sense you initially offered in the O.P Jayp, which I really liked, to abolish ego would be to abolish individuation and creation itself!

I actually agree with Bob in one sense that the concept of 'ego' has come to be a bit of a red herring though. I think there are more useful ways of looking at human problems than through the concept of 'ego', mainly because it DOES have so many different understandings and interpretations of it (nice illustration Hybrid by the way). However, its a word that is not going to disappear anytime soon in the spiritual communities, and while its part of our consciousness, I feel its more helpful to work with the concept in some way than simply deny it.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..


I expect the sun to set around seven PM and it doesn't cause me to suffer, and I expect many many many things ... and expectation does not even cause slight discomfort.


If those expectations are unfulfilled, especially if the sun doesn't go down, that is the root of suffering.. the inability to detach from the expectation..

Be well..

[Jayp]

I would say that in the pure sense you initially offered in the O.P Jayp, which I really liked, to abolish ego would be to abolish individuation and creation itself!

I actually agree with Bob in one sense that the concept of 'ego' has come to be a bit of a red herring though. I think there are more useful ways of looking at human problems than through the concept of 'ego', mainly because it DOES have so many different understandings and interpretations of it (nice illustration Hybrid by the way). However, its a word that is not going to disappear anytime soon in the spiritual communities, and while its part of our consciousness, I feel its more helpful to work with the concept in some way than simply deny it.

It seems to me that, and I may be wrong, that ego is as diverse as any other part of a human or their personality. Ego is clearly an essential part of being human and indeed our awareness and spiritual growth.

An interesting concept that I have always found fascinating is what people suggest about children; they are said to be very much more aware of the spirit world around them in the physical world/reality, until they begin to grow up and then ego steps in and seemingly dimishes that open sense of spiritual awakeness that they seemingly so effortlessly posses.

What happens then? Does this show that ego develops just as most other parts of who we are do, or does it show that ego lies dormant. Or is neither of those the case at all. I don't claim to have the answers, or to be right, this is just food for thought on the subject I guess.

[andrew g]

It seems to me that, and I may be wrong, that ego is as diverse as any other part of a human or their personality. Ego is clearly an essential part of being human and indeed our awareness and spiritual growth.

Yes.

An interesting concept that I have always found fascinating is what people suggest about children; they are said to be very much more aware of the spirit world around them in the physical world/reality, until they begin to grow up and then ego steps in and seemingly dimishes that open sense of spiritual awakeness that they seemingly so effortlessly posses.

Yes, I agree.

What happens then? Does this show that ego develops just as most other parts of who we are do, or does it show that ego lies dormant. Or is neither of those the case at all. I don't claim to have the answers, or to be right, this is just food for thought on the subject I guess.

In my opinion what happens is that as we grow up and get older, its not so much that the ego (in the purest sense) changes, as the ego is simply the filter which enables us to be a unique expression of Consciousness. I think what happens as we get older is that the belief in the 'separate self' becomes more embedded, more concrete, more rigid. Some people go through their whole lives believing that they are this separate self (for example, I am John and I am a good person), and some others get to a point where they are really confused about who they are. At this point the opportunity is there to look at who we really are, beyond this belief in the artificial separate self.

I think this issue is linked to self awareness. Self awareness is a blessing and a curse in one sense because with the recognition of existence comes this separate self and an 'altered ego' (and mental suffering). When we shift beyond this, there is still an ego, but we could say it is now a 'divine ego' - we are still a unique expression, we just no longer believe that we exist autonomously and separately from everything else. We experience alignment to Life, God and the Divine itself.

[Gem]

Greetings..


If those expectations are unfulfilled, especially if the sun doesn't go down, that is the root of suffering.. the inability to detach from the expectation..

Be well..

If something unexpected happened, something painful perhaps, then I'd feel distressed and if exposed to much duress I would feel anguish, and if this persisted for years I'd become depressed. They'd put me on anti-depressants so as I could retain daily functions and my life would be quite the human disaster, but in the thick of what I've seen so far I never met a man who didn't have a breaking point, because a guy can only bear so much (and alot) until life just isn't worth it.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..


If something unexpected happened

And, if you had no expectations, there would nothing contrary to the non-existent expectation.. there would be no un-expected events, they would all be brand new.. you would wonder where the sun goes each night..

Be well..

[andrew g]

Greetings..


And, if you had no expectations, there would nothing contrary to the non-existent expectation.. there would be no un-expected events, they would all be brand new.. you would wonder where the sun goes each night..

Be well..

I agree, but you wouldnt even wonder that last bit.

When it all just 'is' there are no 'events happening' as such.

[hybrid]

admittedly ego concept has become like the concept of god. too many definitions and ideas attached to it. and all concepts laden with all sorts of misconceptions, it usefulness as a concept may be near at hand.


dissolving the ego in not something that you would take away something concrete from a human being.

dissolving the ego is like all your life you believed in santa and then one you realized it wasn't true/

or all your life you think that 1 + 1 = 3 , and then you finally figured it out that 1 + 1 = 2, nothing was gone except ignorance.

,

[Elijah]

dissolving the ego in not something that you would take away something concrete from a human being.

dissolving the ego is like all your life you believed in santa and then one you realized it wasn't true/

or all your life you think that 1 + 1 = 3 , and then you finally figured it out that 1 + 1 = 2, nothing was gone except ignorance.Hi,
I like what you have wrote here hybrid.
I was going to write something similar but your example is pretty good I think.

[Gem]

Greetings..


And, if you had no expectations, there would nothing contrary to the non-existent expectation.. there would be no un-expected events, they would all be brand new.. you would wonder where the sun goes each night..

Be well..

Sometimes I sit around wondering stuff, so for me at least there are plenty of unexpected things, and plenty of things I'd expect, and I doubt anyone is so different. I guess people can pretend they don't expect their utilities bills every month, but I can't be expected to believe that.

[sound]

Greetings..


If those expectations are unfulfilled, especially if the sun doesn't go down, that is the root of suffering.. the inability to detach from the expectation..

Be well..

So it is not the fact that we experience 'expectation' but rather what we attach to it you feel Tzu? I know in the past you have spoken about (in my words) releasing expectation ... is that possible? :hug3:

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Sometimes I sit around wondering stuff, so for me at least there are plenty of unexpected things, and plenty of things I'd expect, and I doubt anyone is so different. I guess people can pretend they don't expect their utilities bills every month, but I can't be expected to believe that.
Hi Gem: I'm gonna bet you can actually figure-out what the essence of the post is about.. and, it's not about such mundane (i am not suggesting trivial) things as you choose to focus on.. we ARE here about 'Spirituality', right?

When those expectations are unfullfilled, what then? do you move on to more productive pursuits, or.. do you lament the lost expectation (as in going on and on about something you want (expect) someone to accept, and they don't want to..)..

Be well..

[Wind of Grace]

I'm really enthralled with this discussion! Such amazing perspectives are being shared by all, it's really cool!


hybrid... the next step in human evolution.
erasing the ego boils down to this - stilling the mind.
since ego is the "I-thought". the first thought out of consciousness,
it becomes incessant and out of control as a result of our post modern civilization. but there will always be personality because personality describes the individual. although i think it is possible that large group of individuals (like humans) can be psychic-ly connected so they always act in unison.


imho thinking has served the humans well in the past, but i believe that a new generation of humans have the capacity to evolve and use intuition more and more as a way of life. i.e. if we do not destroy ourselves first.

I totally agree with you Hybrid about Intuition...

So ultimately, if each person realizes/remembers that there is no "I" alone, and that there exists several other aspects that outline the entire nature of our collective existence, then the "I" will remain while we are in human form, but it would no longer occupy the most prominent place in our lives anymore. I feel that the "I" will inevitably sit comfortably 'in the back seat' so to speak.

In other words, ones personality expression will stay intact, but the broader picture of the fundamental nature of our existence will be an integral knowing for all.

I feel that the only way one can truly incorporate this way of being into their daily life is to concentrate more deeply within the Knowing of ones own heart(Intuition). The mind is where the intellect of "I" exists, and the heart is where it is possible for each to experience the deepest feelings of The Essence that is us, The Source that we eternally are.

[LaMont Cranston]

Jayp & Others, In a very real sense, we are a consciousness that's walking around in a flesh and blood suit. We know a great deal about the limitations of the flesh and blood part of our existence, but we have much less clarity on the limitations of our consciousness. To make matters more unclear, the language available to describe consciousness is rather limited.

We assign labels to parts of our consciousness, including such words as "I," "self," "spirit," "soul," "ego," etc., but there are no clear boundaries about where these labels begin or end. They just happen to fit under that large umbrella that we consider to be what consciousness is about.

I have a very real problem with those people (and there are quite a few of them out there) who carry on about destroying the ego, killing the ego, etc. For starters, the apparent need to do that carries with it idea that that part of our conscious being is bad.

Yes, it is true that people can get carried away, and many do, with their supposed identities. We have words for some of these people (i.e. egomaniac, egotist, etc.), and they all have negative connotations.

The fact that some people get caught up in that part of who they are that we call ego doesn't mean that ego (or any other part of consciousness) is bad or wrong. People also get caught up in such things as God, Jesus, love, honor, success, etc. and often do some pretty awful things, all the while claiming they are doing for the best of reasons. The fact that people make the claim doesn't make it so.

By me, we should recognize ego for what it is, a part of our being, part of our capacity to recognize who we are. I have visited many of those places that members of this forum talk about (i.e. the ISness, the ONEness, the disappearance of ego, etc.), and those are all wonderful places to visit. Some of us, myself included, may want to live there on a more permanent basis someday.

In the meantime, I have certain expectations, and some or all of them may be ego based. I fully expect that the sun will beautifully set in my part of the Pacific Ocean at a certain time this evening, and I expect to enjoy that experience. If, for some reason, my expectations turn out to be wrong, then OK, that's fine too. As consciousness beings, we have the ability to add new information, change directions, stop, start, compensate for mistakes and do a lot of other things.

I can only speak for myself, but I expect that my life will be better if I pay my utility bills and do a lot of other things that are basic to either survival or a more pleasurable existence. Once again, there's nothing wrong or bad about either recognizing our ego(s) or having expectations. It's what we do with those things that determine how we live our lives.

[BlueSky]

Jayp & Others, In a very real sense, we are a consciousness that's walking around in a flesh and blood suit. We know a great deal about the limitations of the flesh and blood part of our existence, but we have much less clarity on the limitations of our consciousness. To make matters more unclear, the language available to describe consciousness is rather limited.

We assign labels to parts of our consciousness, including such words as "I," "self," "spirit," "soul," "ego," etc., but there are no clear boundaries about where these labels begin or end. They just happen to fit under that large umbrella that we consider to be what consciousness is about.

I have a very real problem with those people (and there are quite a few of them out there) who carry on about destroying the ego, killing the ego, etc. For starters, the apparent need to do that carries with it idea that that part of our conscious being is bad.

Yes, it is true that people can get carried away, and many do, with their supposed identities. We have words for some of these people (i.e. egomaniac, egotist, etc.), and they all have negative connotations.

The fact that some people get caught up in that part of who they are that we call ego doesn't mean that ego (or any other part of consciousness) is bad or wrong. People also get caught up in such things as God, Jesus, love, honor, success, etc. and often do some pretty awful things, all the while claiming they are doing for the best of reasons. The fact that people make the claim doesn't make it so.

By me, we should recognize ego for what it is, a part of our being, part of our capacity to recognize who we are. I have visited many of those places that members of this forum talk about (i.e. the ISness, the ONEness, the disappearance of ego, etc.), and those are all wonderful places to visit. Some of us, myself included, may want to live there on a more permanent basis someday.

In the meantime, I have certain expectations, and some or all of them may be ego based. I fully expect that the sun will beautifully set in my part of the Pacific Ocean at a certain time this evening, and I expect to enjoy that experience. If, for some reason, my expectations turn out to be wrong, then OK, that's fine too. As consciousness beings, we have the ability to add new information, change directions, stop, start, compensate for mistakes and do a lot of other things.

I can only speak for myself, but I expect that my life will be better if I pay my utility bills and do a lot of other things that are basic to either survival or a more pleasurable existence. Once again, there's nothing wrong or bad about either recognizing our ego(s) or having expectations. It's what we do with those things that determine how we live our lives.

Hi Lamont,
I am responding because there is this feeling I get that makes every cell in my body feel like exploding when people post their own perspectives and use the word "we" in it.
Because you included me in your perspectives above, I am obliqued to take a stand and say, no, that is not at all how life works with me and I just could not sign my name to any part of your post.
I still love ya!
James

[LaMont Cranston]

WhiteShaman, It's funny that you should point out that "we," thing, because I get on people's cases about including me in their "we's." I don't have the time (or the inclination) to go over all those we's, especially since you've already busted me.

How about, in our imaginations or some other part of our consciousnesses, we change all those "we's" to more acceptable phrases (i.e. There are certain widely held viewpoints about ego; some people think ego is bad, etc.).

OK, I've got to go. See you around...

[BlueSky]

WhiteShaman, It's funny that you should point out that "we," thing, because I get on people's cases about including me in their "we's." I don't have the time (or the inclination) to go over all those we's, especially since you've already busted me.

How about, in our imaginations or some other part of our consciousnesses, we change all those "we's" to more acceptable phrases (i.e. There are certain widely held viewpoints about ego; some people think ego is bad, etc.).

OK, I've got to go. See you around...

Ha!
OK...note to self...Lamont's "we's" are really" me's".
With that change, all I can say in regards to your post is, Thanks for sharing!

Blessings...James

[LaMont Cranston]

WhiteShaman, Our little discussion reminds me of an old joke about the Lone Ranger and Tonto. It seems the two of them find themselves surrounded by very hostile Indians.

Lone Ranger: "What are we going to do, Tonto?"
Tonto: "What do you mean "we," white man?"

See you soon...

[BlueSky]

WhiteShaman, Our little discussion reminds me of an old joke about the Lone Ranger and Tonto. It seems the two of them find themselves surrounded by very hostile Indians.

Lone Ranger: "What are we going to do, Tonto?"
Tonto: "What do you mean "we," white man?"

See you soon...

Ha! That's right, Kemosabe! (I remember that show well)

see you soon.........."Hi-yo Silver, away" lol

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

It's interesting, how we have experssions like 'I', or we, or personallity, or liar, or con artist, or saint, or humble, or sincere, etc.. all of which are more accurately descriptive than 'ego'..

Be well..

[Lisa]

me
we
you
i
them
us

The sense of separation is the ego.
It births an illusion of duality.
It serves a purpose.
To realize oneness.
To realize there is only one consciousness.
Forms are for recognizing the formless.
They are clouds in the sky pointing to the sky.
Just sky- can't be noticed.

Space is all there is.
The things in space are simply a face of space.

There is no you.
There is no me.
It just appears as if there is such a thing.
And it's suppose to appear as such.

As to hands in boiling water-
unless that is happening-
it is just a thought.
If it is happening,
maybe a severe gift of surrender.

There are many good ideas and ways and truths,
but there is only one God.
The unmanifested.
Here, deep within.

[TzuJanLi]

me
we
you
i
them
us

The sense of separation is the ego.
It births an illusion of duality.
It serves a purpose.
To realize oneness.
To realize there is only one consciousness.
Forms are for recognizing the formless.
They are clouds in the sky pointing to the sky.
Just sky- can't be noticed.

Space is all there is.
The things in space are simply a face of space.

There is no you.
There is no me.
It just appears as if there is such a thing.
And it's suppose to appear as such.

As to hands in boiling water-
unless that is happening-
it is just a thought.
If it is happening,
maybe a severe gift of surrender.

There are many good ideas and ways and truths,
but there is only one God.
The unmanifested.
Here, deep within.
Hi Lisa: Does it occur to you that 'it' was 'one consciousness' originally? the bolded portion is like trying to 'make water wetter'.. can you see that in its true simplicity, that the stories fall away.. and it is just a self-discovery.. by 'Oneness' through itself as 'Many-ness'.. the self-discovery of 'Oneness' is mirrored by each of the 'Manys'.. Life is the answer to 'What AM I'? whether it be One or Many..

Be well..

[Gem]

Greetings..


Hi Gem: I'm gonna bet you can actually figure-out what the essence of the post is about.. and, it's not about such mundane (i am not suggesting trivial) things as you choose to focus on.. we ARE here about 'Spirituality', right?

When those expectations are unfullfilled, what then? do you move on to more productive pursuits, or.. do you lament the lost expectation (as in going on and on about something you want (expect) someone to accept, and they don't want to..)..

Be well..

I read your post about never expecting then Andrews about never wondering and thought 'hey, my life is full of expectations and wondering', just like anyones.

Yes I lament lost expectations and I move on to new persuits, have anticipation, nerves, feel inadequate, depressed, become pleased when things go expected, displeased if everything goes wrong, celebnrate.... feel happy, caring, lonely, lost... and everything anyone ever felt.
,
Is spirituality something else where I get to pretend it ain't like that?

[TzuJanLi]

I read your post about never expecting then Andrews about never wondering and thought 'hey, my life is full of expectations and wondering', just like anyones.

Yes I lament lost expectations and I move on to new persuits, have anticipation, nerves, feel inadequate, depressed, become pleased when things go expected, displeased if everything goes wrong, celebnrate.... feel happy, caring, lonely, lost... and everything anyone ever felt.
,
Is spirituality something else where I get to pretend it ain't like that?
Hi Gem: LOL. No, it's not about never having expectations, nor is it about pretending.. it's about not attaching to the outcome of the expectation, and.. more importantly, understanding what is reasonable.. some people spread expectations like, 'spiritual realization ends suffering', and that's unreasonable.. especially when the language is redefined to create the illusion of validity.. it's about seeing Life for what it is, not what grand and unreasonable expectations we have of it..

Be well..

[hybrid]

I feel that the only way one can truly incorporate this way of being into their daily life is to concentrate more deeply within the Knowing of ones own heart(Intuition). The mind is where the intellect of "I" exists, and the heart is where it is possible for each to experience the deepest feelings of The Essence that is us, The Source that we eternally are.

the "I" is to our attention as the heart is to the our affection. the practice of melding the two is the highest form of spirituality. imho

.

[hybrid]

So ultimately, if each person realizes/remembers that there is no "I" alone, and that there exists several other aspects that outline the entire nature of our collective existence,
yes. existence (yours) does not depend on the "I" alone. when the "I" disappears then you will understand why people say things like you do not exist. since "I" is just a thought, although the most persistent one, it is also subject to disappearance in consciousness as all thoughts are. "I" is special but it is not exempted.


then the "I" will remain while we are in human form, but it would no longer occupy the most prominent place in our lives anymore. I feel that the "I" will inevitably sit comfortably 'in the back seat' so to speak.
the "I" can come back as redeemed in its resurrection or in some extreme case not anymore. it can also comeback as confused. who knows. though repetition of this realization that "I" is not the man, then yes it goes on the sideways as you said or the sense of "i"/self becomes very weak.

do you agree a person with a very weak sense of self is not easily offend or suffer? this is what ot meant when someone say "there is no one to be offended and no one to suffer.

it is only those who think that their existence hangs by the "I" who does not understand this. that there are no alternative modes of existence like an existence that is grounded from the heart.

.

.

.

[Wind of Grace]

About expectations/outcomes...

For me, there is only one way to live that ensures that whatever happens to be doesn’t disappoint me in the least. I duly practice living fully in the present moment without any suppositions at all. I know that if I wholeheartedly live in this very moment, expectation/outcome cannot play any role in it, because in the Now, expectation and outcome simply don’t exist.

I steadily work at embracing the Now exactly as it is without any judgement, and I do my best to choose my responses to situations instead of instantly reacting to them. It’s still a challenge for me at times, but since I’ve implemented this principle into my life, I experience a greater measure of peace, more than I could have ever imagined before.

[hybrid]

its not only expectation that we attached our selves that make us suffer. even the attachment to the past tortures us.

it's not that ex[expectation is bad or the root cause, its being not afraid to be disappointed that makes you free.

.

[Wind of Grace]

hybrid... the "I" is to our attention as the heart is to the our affection. the practice of melding the two is the highest form of spirituality. imho

existence (yours) does not depend on the "I" alone. when the "I" disappears then you will understand why people say things like you do not exist. since "I" is just a thought, although the most persistent one, it is also subject to disappearance in consciousness as all thoughts are. "I" is special but it is not exempted.

existence (yours) does not depend on the "I" alone. when the "I" disappears then you will understand why people say things like you do not exist. since "I" is just a thought, although the most persistent one, it is also subject to disappearance in consciousness as all thoughts are. "I" is special but it is not exempted.

do you agree a person with a very weak sense of self is not easily offend or suffer? this is what ot meant when someone say "there is no one to be offended and no one to suffer.

it is only those who think that their existence hangs by the "I" who does not understand this. that there are no alternative modes of existence like an existence that is grounded from the heart.

Hi Hybrid,

Each of your points is wonderfully insightful, thank you so much for sharing them all :hug3:

For me, the melding of the mind and heart is the path that can lead each person who chooses to travel upon it to the shared feeling of unification that humanity as a whole has forgotten for so long...

[Wind of Grace]

hybrid... its not only expectation that we attached our selves that make us suffer. even the attachment to the past tortures us.

it's not that ex[expectation is bad or the root cause, its being not afraid to be disappointed that makes you free.

I agree hybrid,

If one can train themselves not to dwell on what was, or what could be... all that is left is the feeling of free :)

[Wind of Grace]

The first Chilean miner is about to rise to the surface and greet his family...

I'm so thrilled for him, I can hardly contain the joy in my heart !!!! Woohoo !!!!

*Update --- He just got up to the ground level .... It's 11:11 pm .... WOW !!!!!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

If one can train themselves not to dwell on what was, or what could be... all that is left is the feeling of free :)
Sitting here, in stillness, those words are nourishing.. luminous.. and, if the sincerity is there, no training is needed.. Thanks, Grace..

Be well..

[TzuJanLi]

The first Chilean miner is about to rise to the surface and greet his family...

I'm so thrilled for him, I can hardly contain the joy in my heart !!!! Woohoo !!!!

*Update --- He just got up to the ground level .... It's 11:11 pm .... WOW !!!!!
I wonder what time it will be when the last miner reaches the surface.. his 'time' will be equally significant for him, too..

Be well..

[Wind of Grace]

Tzu... Sitting here, in stillness, those words are nourishing.. luminous.. and, if the sincerity is there, no training is needed.. Thanks, Grace..
Thank you Tzu... your words are very kind :)

With sincerity, Life flowingly unfolds, no effort is necessary....

[Wind of Grace]

Tzu... I wonder what time it will be when the last miner reaches the surface.. his 'time' will be equally significant for him, too..
No doubt about it !!!! Anytime is the best time for any one of them, and certainly all of them :)

[Gem]

Thank you Tzu... your words are very kind :)

With sincerity, Life flowingly unfolds, no effort is necessary....

I have to make quite some effort, and I know people try to pretend there is some great disparity between doing and being, but personally I reckon that must be some idealism or something.

Does a bee just be or does a bee just do what bees do?

[Wind of Grace]

Gem... Does a bee just be or does a bee just do what bees do?
A bee is being, and in being a bee, it simply does what it does.

[BlueSky]

I have to make quite some effort, and I know people try to pretend there is some great disparity between doing and being, but personally I reckon that must be some idealism or something.

Does a bee just be or does a bee just do what bees do?

The way I see it Gem, it's all the same. Pretending to be or genuinely being, making effort or pretending you are not making an effort or not knowing who or what is making effort.
It's all the same................
Nothing changes except how our minds make claim to understand it.
Life rolls on in spite of how we imagine it does.
That is the way I see it anyway.
Blessings....James

[Gem]

it's about not attaching to the outcome of the expectation, and.. more importantly, understanding what is reasonable.. some people spread expectations like, 'spiritual realization ends suffering', and that's unreasonable.. especially when the language is redefined to create the illusion of validity.. it's about seeing Life for what it is, not what grand and unreasonable expectations we have of it..

Be well..

Yes... It's a life of suffering, not so much for me, I'm fortunate, but I suspect the truth bringers would experience the harsh feelings men do if the rug was pulled from under them and they wound up homeless, on the street, alone... and these words here that seem wise in this arena would be the mere ranting of a beraggled mad man in that former scenario... here these words are praised and there they would be scorned...

All in good measure.

[Gem]

A bee is being a bee, and in being a bee, it simply does what it does.

Sooooo....... A bee isn't being a bee unless it does what bees do, and there is that saying 'busy as a bee'.

If someone believed all the 'just be' jazz, he'd not get out of bed he'd try so hard not to actually do, and of course you be... now what do you wanna do, or perhaps there's things that just have to be done, coz the landlady wants the rent by friday.

[Wind of Grace]

Gem... Sooooo....... A bee isn't being a bee unless it does what bees do, and there is that saying 'busy as a bee'.

If someone believed all the 'just be' jazz, he'd not get out of bed he'd try so hard not to actually do, and of course you be... now what do you wanna do, or perhaps there's things that just have to be done, coz the landlady wants the rent by friday.

Not getting out of bed, trying not to do anything, thinking of what to do, feeling that things have to be done, choosing to do them or not... it's all being.

Being is what it is, it's our perceptions of being that puts labels on being. Whatever way one sees it, they're being, plain and simple.

[Gem]

The way I see it Gem, it's all the same. Pretending to be or genuinely being, making effort or pretending you are not making an effort or not knowing who or what is making effort.
It's all the same................
Nothing changes except how our minds make claim to understand it.
Life rolls on in spite of how we imagine it does.
That is the way I see it anyway.
Blessings....James

I'm just not that flaky, and it's pretty plain to see people do, and it is only pretending we don't make an effort when sometimes it's pretty hard just to get up on time, and if you want to climb Mt Everest you gonna have try real hard.

People think up such idealistic stuff because they think about it and then attempt some answer or something ... but to make a sincere effort.... I think I have a cool clip about this somewhere...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUY4yy90bdo&feature=related (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DFUY4yy90bdo%2526a mp%253Bfeature%253Drelated)

[Wind of Grace]

Gem... coz the landlady wants the rent by friday.

... one burbon, one scotch and one beer!!! I love that song!

Thanks Mr.Thoroughgood... Being as your are brought about some wildly fun tunes!

[Gem]

Not getting out of bed, trying not to do anything, thinking of what to do, feeling that things have to be done, choosing to do them or not... it's all being.

Being is what it is, it's our perceptions of being that puts labels on being. Whatever way one sees it, they're being, plain and simple.

It's an ideal of being... but I reckon watch the clip I posted, although perhaps maybe there might be some fixation on the slogan 'just be'.

[Wind of Grace]

Sorry Gem ... my extra super slow poopy dial-up service doesn't play youtube videos very well. We're supposed to have access to high speed internet service in early 2011. I sooooooo can't wait :) Thank you though for posting the link :)

[BlueSky]

I'm just not that flaky, and it's pretty plain to see people do, and it is only pretending we don't make an effort when sometimes it's pretty hard just to get up on time, and if you want to climb Mt Everest you gonna have try real hard.

People think up such idealistic stuff because they think about it and then attempt some answer or something ... but to make a sincere effort.... I think I have a cool clip about this somewhere...:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUY4yy90bdo&feature=related (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatc h%3Fv%3DFUY4yy90bdo%26amp%3Bfeature%3Drelated)

Not exactly sure what you mean by flaky but if you really think about it, your stand that everyone else is pretending is just you pretending that you know that. lol

[andrew g]

A state of 'doing' is one in which we use the perceived form of life for our own perceived ends. Its a state of consuming and possessing and there is a continual effort to control and manipulate. Its a state in which we believe in the finiteness of life and is bound up with an energy of lack. It comes with a sense of restlessness, impatience and intolerance.

In a state of 'being' there is no attempt to consume and possess and there is no effort to control and manipulate. There is no longer a belief in the finiteness of life and as such it is bound up with an energy of abundance. It is a state of rest, infinite patience and allowance.

[BlueSky]

A state of 'doing' is one in which we use the perceived form of life for our own perceived ends. Its a state of consuming and possessing and there is a continual effort to control and manipulate. Its a state in which we believe in the finiteness of life and is bound up with an energy of lack. It comes with a sense of restlessness, impatience and intolerance.

In a state of 'being' there is no attempt to consume and possess and there is no effort to control and manipulate. There is no longer a belief in the finiteness of life and as such it is bound up with an energy of abundance. It is a state of rest, infinite patience and allowance.

I dunno, I'm with WOG........it's all being even if it looks like doing or impatience or intolerance or restlessness or patience or allowance.
What else could it be? (that is not a real question by the way. lol)
If anything, the barriers to clearly being come disquised as a knowing of what is not being.

[Gem]

Not exactly sure what you mean by flaky but if you really think about it, your stand that everyone else is pretending is just you pretending that you know that. lol

Not every one is pretending, some folks know they are saying what they think, but pretentiousness is rife when people think they have the answers, like 'there is no self' and 'that's self realization' and 'enlightenment is...', I mean from my perspective it's quite a charade... no expectation? since when? No wondering stuff? When? Only being no doing... Yes indeed and a big theory and spiel to justify all these drawn conclusions.

I'm a musician and I can say from my experience only a 100% true to self effort can distract me from self consciousness so there is no thinking, only doing, and I mean a whole hearted effort. (That's just a recount of experience, not an invented a theory)

I think the vid I posted says it better though.

[andrew g]

I dunno, I'm with WOG........it's all being even if it looks like doing or impatience or intolerance or restlessness or patience or allowance.
What else could it be? (that is not a real question by the way. lol)
If anything, the barriers to clearly being come disquised as a knowing of what is not being.

Thats why I talked of a state of being. I was talking in 'state' terms (I actually agree that its all 'being' in the way that WoG was suggesting). The restlessness only arises in a state of doing.

[Lisa]

Lisa- It serves a purpose.
To realize oneness.
To realize there is only one consciousness.

Tzu- Hi Lisa: Does it occur to you that 'it' was 'one consciousness' originally? the bolded portion is like trying to 'make water wetter'.. can you see that in its true simplicity, that the stories fall away.. and it is just a self-discovery.. by 'Oneness' through itself as 'Many-ness'.. the self-discovery of 'Oneness' is mirrored by each of the 'Manys'.. Life is the answer to 'What AM I'? whether it be One or Many..

Maybe? I don't really get what you're saying. :smile:
The one consciousness Is- and becomes conscious of Itself- this is Realization.

[Gem]

A state of 'doing' is one in which we use the perceived form of life for our own perceived ends. Its a state of consuming and possessing and there is a continual effort to control and manipulate. Its a state in which we believe in the finiteness of life and is bound up with an energy of lack. It comes with a sense of restlessness, impatience and intolerance.

What complete poppycock!

In a state of 'being' there is no attempt to consume and possess and there is no effort to control and manipulate. There is no longer a belief in the finiteness of life and as such it is bound up with an energy of abundance. It is a state of rest, infinite patience and allowance.

Hey That word editor is not doing its thing (poppycock), it's just being.

[andrew g]

Not every one is pretending, some folks know they are saying what they think, but pretentiousness is rife when people think they have the answers, like 'there is no self' and 'that's self realization' and 'enlightenment is...', I mean from my perspective it's quite a charade... no expectation? since when? No wondering stuff? When? Only being no doing... Yes indeed and a big theory and spiel to justify all these drawn conclusions.

I'm a musician and I can say from my experience only a 100% true to self effort can distract me from self consciousness so there is no thinking, only doing, and I mean a whole hearted effort. (That's just a recount of experience, not an invented a theory)

I think the vid I posted says it better though.

You are talking from a perspective of identification, which is fine, but to suggest that talk of no-self, self-realization and enlightenment is a charade is to suggest that Buddha and many others are charading. There is a different way of being in the world than the way we were conditioned to be, and that is what is talked about.

[BlueSky]

Not every one is pretending, some folks know they are saying what they think, but pretentiousness is rife when people think they have the answers, like 'there is no self' and 'that's self realization' and 'enlightenment is...', I mean from my perspective it's quite a charade... no expectation? since when? No wondering stuff? When? Only being no doing... Yes indeed and a big theory and spiel to justify all these drawn conclusions.

I'm a musician and I can say from my experience only a 100% true to self effort can distract me from self consciousness so there is no thinking, only doing, and I mean a whole hearted effort. (That's just a recount of experience, not an invented a theory)

I think the vid I posted says it better though.

I really love what you said here.
The way I see it............any claims of knowing is pretending, so maybe you have a good point but what is it exactly, that is pretending?
One might think that if I answer this question then I am making claim to know and therefore pretending..... and they would be right. lol

[andrew g]

What complete poppycock!



Hey That word editor is not doing its thing (poppycock), it's just being.

Given that I am fairly familiar with your mindset by now, it doesnt surprise me that it seems like poppycock to you.

[sound]

hahaha ......

[Gem]

Given that I am fairly familiar with your mindset by now, it doesnt surprise me that it seems like poppycock to you.

What you said is a load of rot Andrew, but you think its Truth and bung my **** into 'ego' (called 'mindset' in this case). That's how the bulldust is upheld. I've seen this show before.

[sound]

And magnificantly we will fold into the mystic lol I am wondering whether there is any special leniency given to ego threads, given the nature of the beast I mean lol ... we will soon find out hahaha

[andrew g]

What you said is a load of rot Andrew, but you think its Truth and bung my **** into 'ego' (called 'mindset' in this case). That's how the bulldust is upheld. I've seen this show before.

Fair enough.

[BlueSky]

Hey, I voted for him! Prince Poppycock!

[hybrid]

What you said is a load of rot Andrew, but you think its Truth and bung my **** into 'ego' (called 'mindset' in this case). That's how the bulldust is upheld. I've seen this show before.
what he said is that he was not surprise when you said that his talked doesn't make sense to you.

because i think that he has appraised you as a logical positivist (just do or just be guy), that's the mindset thingy he was referring to.

so most like you do not concern your self things like the problem of consciousness (how sentience came out of inanimate objects) or questions like is there other dimensions besides ours.

bu he does and like to ponder about these things.
same case with la mont, he can't appreciate andrew's musing because all his concerned about is to be a loving husband, a good father and a good provider.

ps. i realized that i may have misrepresented both of you. my apologies. but it does illustrate some of the misgivings happening here in the forum.

.
,
.

[andrew g]

Yes. Thats a pretty fair appraisal in my opinion.

[Smiler]

Wasnt it a founding father like freud that made up the word " EGO" ??? Is that right?
Maybe WE (LOL.. sorry guys crashing in on WE humour here love what u wrote Lamont and White Shaman)... should just think .. hey is this a good thing or a bad thing? Does it hurt anyone????
As the saying goes Not offense intended anyone... not my saying..
"keep it simple stupid"
Ps I tell me that too LOL
Blessings
:)

[LaMont Cranston]

hybrid, Yes, you misrepresented me. I am not "concerned" about being a good husband and those other things. I am a good husband, a good provider and I have quite a bit of time left over for lots of other things, including writing and running a charity. It's one thing to be "concerned;" it's another thing to enjoy who you are and to be grateful for what is.

[hybrid]

hybrid, Yes, you misrepresented me. I am not "concerned" about being a good husband and those other things. I am a good husband, a good provider and I have quite a bit of time left over for lots of other things, including writing and running a charity. It's one thing to be "concerned;" it's another thing to enjoy who you are and to be grateful for what is.

my apology for inappropriate choice of words.
.

[seekseek]

finally, someone challenging the idea of "ego." so exciting. how could anyone claim to know what it is. it is funny that freud invented the idea and the next thing you know it is fact. people speak of it as if it were a tangible "thing." it's just an idea about "something."

[Smiler]

Hi seekseek

Like your style :)
And totally agree LOL

Blessings

[easy]

Wasnt it a founding father like freud that made up the word " EGO" ??? Is that right?
Maybe WE (LOL.. sorry guys crashing in on WE humour here love what u wrote Lamont and White Shaman)... should just think .. hey is this a good thing or a bad thing? Does it hurt anyone????
As the saying goes Not offense intended anyone... not my saying..
"keep it simple stupid"
Ps I tell me that too LOL
Blessings
:)

Like that one smiler :)
Ego is nothing more than a function of the mind, as any part of the mind or of the body for that matter... all have its uses...
I love your simplicity Smiler... very refreshing...
Blessings

[Smiler]

Thanks easy !

Your words put a bigger smile on my face, its refreshing to me as well to read your messages on the topic of " ego"
Great minds think alike lol .. or is that my ego talking :)

Blessings to you
:)'s