Personality disorders

[Belle]

Does anyone know much about them - how you manage someone with them? I'm thinking specifically about narcissum. It seems such a sad state to get into but I'm wondering whether it can be managed out?

[Enlightener]

Yes, of course. What do you want to know?

[psychoslice]

All personalities are a disorder, no matter what personality you have its no you, persona meaning mask, we put on a new mask for just about every occasion and every person we come in contact with, to truly know yourself is to find who you are without any mask, but that's another story for you to find out.

[Enlightener]

Bless you slice :)

[psychoslice]

Bless you slice :)
I try my hardest lol.:redface:

[Belle]

Love your thoughts The Slice, thank you!

I want to know how to manage a narcissist? I've looked a bit on line and it sounds grim but one owes me a considerable sum of money and doesn't believe he should pay me back. I'm 99% sure he's narcissitic?

[psychoslice]

Love your thoughts The Slice, thank you!

I want to know how to manage a narcissist? I've looked a bit on line and it sounds grim but one owes me a considerable sum of money and doesn't believe he should pay me back. I'm 99% sure he's narcissitic?
Yea that happened to me also once, but I'm afraid it might be an expensive lesson, I never got back my money.:redface:

[Rin]

Love your thoughts The Slice, thank you!

I want to know how to manage a narcissist? I've looked a bit on line and it sounds grim but one owes me a considerable sum of money and doesn't believe he should pay me back. I'm 99% sure he's narcissitic?
In this case the proper way to manage them is to sue them via the court system.

[Ciqala]

do you mean, how to deal with someone with a personality disorder?
with compassion? be supportive, encouraging, learn proper communication skills and conflict resolution skills - that is a big step.
otherwise, don't.
if it is effecting you and the person is unwilling to change, i would say remove yourself and let the professionals deal with it. these people may not react well when it comes to conflict.

because you can't manage anyone but yourself, and you can't force anyone to manage themselves if they don't want help.

thankfully, in reality, personality disorders like narcissistic personality disorder and anti social personality disorder are usually mild and rarely problematic, though they might offend a lot of strangers along the way, prefer being alone, this means that it rarely goes diagnosed, and the only times they do get diagnosed is when people get in trouble with the law and are forced to be assessed, this also means, someone with this disorder is definitely not going to think they have a problem, because really - they don't. All it effects is their perceptions, they don't have a mental illness at all, and they have the choice to act on, or let it alter their behaviour. the ones who do act on it, get in trouble and instead of treatment are sent to jail. Believe it or not, these more mild disorders are very easy to cope with and rarely require treatment and these people can live very happy and fulfilling lives. Also, ASPD (psychopathy) does not make people into crazy psycho killers...

But there is also Borderline Personality Disorder and this is not an easy to cope with disease. This is unlike any personality disorder because the personality in these patients is severely unstable and attracts all other disease, therefore to be diagnosed as BPD you must also have dual diagnoses of many, many mental illnesses as well as many addictions while qualifying for the personality disorder itself. Most times, a BPD patient will also have other personality disorders. It is the MOTHER of all mental diseases out there, and often patients are very unstable, can be very violent if paired with the aggressive personality disorders, and need definite treatment in general, but this too can be coped with and they can live a normal healthy life.

[Ninoushka]

Belle, how do you want to "deal" with him? To bring him back into your life? To get your money back?
I'm asking because I know the situation with this guy has been driving you crazy for months and you seem to have difficulties letting it go...

[Belle]

Good q Ninoushka.

He doesn't drive me crazy - more I drive myself crazy as I know it is going to be really really awful navigating this issue. I don't know definitively he is narcissitic but it seems to fit the bill from what i know of him and given that, he will believe he has an entitlement to my money and not to honour his commitment. It changes the dynamic hugely from dealing with a perfect toad to a damaged soul - but the complexity of the damage makes it difficult to work through.

There are other people in my life who I sense are narcisstic - eg my ma. So, whilst the phantom money-ower is the catalyst for the q, there are other people to navigate through and I have to ask myself what is it about me that attracts a certain type? This is indeed speculation but who knows? I feel i need to look at it.

[Ninoushka]

He doesn't drive me crazy - more I drive myself crazy as I know it is going to be really really awful navigating this issue.
I don't know definitively he is narcissitic but it seems to fit the bill from what i know of him and given that, he will believe he has an entitlement to my money and not to honour his commitment. It changes the dynamic hugely from dealing with a perfect toad to a damaged soul - but the complexity of the damage makes it difficult to work through.
I am glad you realize that you are the one driving yourself crazy :D Do you absolutely need this money right now? Or are you seeking to get it back for the principle (i.e. because it bugs you that he would think that he's entitled to keep it). That is a big question, because if you don't need this money, my advice is that you should let it go. At some point, this money will get back to you anyways - either from him when he finally realizes his mistake, or from another source. You are obsessing on this money and it is hurting you... would you rather have the money with all the pain in seems to involve, or be a little poorer but at peace?

There are other people in my life who I sense are narcisstic - eg my ma. So, whilst the phantom money-ower is the catalyst for the q, there are other people to navigate through and I have to ask myself what is it about me that attracts a certain type? This is indeed speculation but who knows? I feel i need to look at it.
This is another question and in my opinion it is not exactly the same as what you're dealing with "phantom money-ower" (haha, excellent nickname by the way). So you think you attract this type of people? I know the feeling. For a long time in my life I attracted abusive relationships (friends, boyfriends) and compulsive/pathological liars.
After some soul searching, I realized that they were only mirroring, in a very extreme way, some of my weaknesses. The fact that the abuse and the lies were so strong hurt me really bad and it was the only way for me to realize what I had done wrong. Now that I don't pose myself as a victim of these behaviors, and work on my own behavior, I no longer attract this type of people. If you think about the law of karma, when you do something wrong, it will get back to you 10 times. This is true and seems to work whether or not you believe in past lives (in this case, there's even more negative behavior on your part, lol!). I am not accusing you of being narcissistic yourself, I don't know you, just wondering if you think you could display this behavior yourself too in a way. I know it is a difficult question to answer, and you don't have to answer here in public, but some self-questioning always helps, in my opinion.

[Belle]

Ninoushka thank you - you ask bold qs. I won't deal with the money q as it's off-topic. But I appreciate and will reflect on the q.

I know exactly what you are saying with regards to the aspect that perhaps I am wound up by such behaviours as it might be a mirror to my soul. There are aspects of me which are narcisstic, but a) they are not consistently so and b) it is not enough of my personality traits.

I have / had an egoic desire to please, that by making others happy I feel fulfilled. But not in a way that I can sustain as I do have a sense of my own need - but somehow I think I have / had a chink in my persona such that narcisstic personalities rock into my life easily. I'm sure of the lessons that I'm presenting me with.

Looking on line at the sort of person a narcisstic is - it makes me sad. Whilst I am aware that you can't *help* someone, perhaps there is a way of walking by someone who is of this nature?

[Xan]

Someone said compassion, which is always true but won't get your money back.

To manage personality disorder people takes a lot of precise manipulation.

On the other hand, you can pray for help or ask your angels. That's what I would do.


Xan

[orca]

Hi Belle,

Well, I am still relatively new on this site but I thought I'd answer your post. Yes, I have dealt with people with personality disorders before, including narcissistic personality disorder. I wasn't sure what your question is about -- is it along the lines of why you attract these folks? Or perhaps how to respond to them? Or maybe wanting support, in terms of what personality disorders are? All are very valid because personality disorders do tend to make us doubt ourselves when we are not feeling fully confident inside. I've been there. I lost money to a con artist once who was a narcissist, and it was a powerful lesson to me.

I think you might have to write off the money as a loss. Unless you pursue legal action, I don't think your friend is suddenly going to have a change of heart. If you find yourself hoping to change this person to help him see the error of his ways, it's probably not going to be very satisfying...

The key is to learn from this so that it doesn't keep happening. Consider the money as a sort of tuition in this thing called life. If it feels like people with personality disorders are all around you, it may be helpful to look at what in you has a need to keep helping them. Realistically, chances are your friend would have survived just fine without your cash. No starvation or being thrown out on the street would have happened, as narcissists tend to be very intelligent and able to survive. Just an observation that you may be wanting something in return when you give money like this, and if you know what it is, you can meet that need differently. And that is where the healing can start. So even if there are people with personality disorders around you, you won't be so vulnerable to being taken advantage of.

My experience was extremely valuable for me. I've never repeated it. And yes, I do understand personality disorders now on a much more personal level. It's just that now, I don't have to go do the whole dance with them. I understand it. And remember, it always takes two to tango -- whether if it is with your cash or your energy or your time...

Hope this helps.

[Sarian]

[///////////////////////////////

[magonia]

Some of my family have personality disorders, and they are not nice to know.

[Belle]

orca - thanks for your message. Indeed my q wasn't clear as to what I wanted -there is the aspect of why I have (past tense) attracted those with personality disorders and also how to work with them / around them / out of them.

Regarding the money - did I hope for something in return? Possibly ongoing friendship if anything, I felt it was a seal on a commitment to each other. I live in hope that he will see the responsibility of paying me back, not so much for the money but more for his healing path, for his happiness, his emotional freedom. I also think the money will burn a hole in his pocket and it would be better for him to return it. But, I do need to check my motives for any manipulation on my behalf. Legal route would probably destroy me in the process, such is his intelligent turn of the word and ability to cut someone in pieces with three words.

I can see all too clearly how I have fed narcisstics and I think they are indeed attracted to my personality for some reason and I want to ensure that this ends.

The issue of taking two to tango is very key. I want to avoid existing patterns, I want to be kind but not in an unhealthy way and also I want to learn to recognise the behaviours.

What I've read about personality disorders is that they frequently stem from an unhappy childhood and therefore people as such deserve compassion and kindness. But I don't want to buy into a codependency which is where I think I've positioned myself in the past. But, it may well be that I'm not the person to walk beside them in any form which is fine.

[orca]

Hi Belle,
Just my .02:

Sure, people with narcissistic personality disorder deserve compassion and kindness. But not in a way that allows them to take advantage of others. That would not be kind at all. It would be enabling, and that isn't really kind or compassionate to anyone in the long run. Not really.

Hoping that your friend sees the error of his ways for his own good spiritual probably isn't going to work. What if you can thank him (silently) for the lesson you've learned? If this keeps happening, what a wonderful way to change your energy.

It is good you are looking at your motivations on why you give to people who won't return it back. What might be the underlying feeling? To be loved and validated, perhaps? To rescue people for their own good? To save themselves from their own self destructive tendencies? Whatever it is, it is valuable info to understand... And then you can shift it. Can't do much shifting until you know what it is you want to shift..

Just my .02.

Orca

[Belle]

thank you orca

it's no longer about the money - at least 99% of the time, it's more about my energy that he holds onto whilst rejecting me as a person. That causes a disconnect and a malice - only as far as I let him have power over me and that is dwindling.

I have to hope tho - I have to have an optimism but i hold it within a realistic tennet.

And yes, I have searched long and hard as to my motives. I believe I was manipulated somewhat - well manipulated in several vibrational contexts - and I do have a lot to learn from this experience. I can see my mistakes alllllllll too well!

[samantha]

They say get them out your life or you could study it like i did and know all their tricks. I was abused as a teenager by my step dad, i think had some pd. I came across narcississm and realised my sister has it and i was her vistim. I have been in relationships with 2 narcs, im an empath and highly sensitive but because i was a victim of abuse and then my sis you grow a victim mentality and evil people spot it a mile off so that is maybe how u attract them.

[twinkle]

When I was 20 before 9/11 crisis, I bought 3 plane tickets during a last minute sale for myself and two friends to go to NYC on New Year's Eve. My friends did not have credit cards and the tickets needed to be purchased that same day. I said I would buy the tickets if they paid me back. I also said they did not have to pay for hotel room since they could share my hotel room with me. I might have even paid for the whole taxi fare, but it was my idea or a way to convince them to go.

One friend paid me back quickly for the plane ticket. However, the other one never paid me back. I never thought about him having a personality disorder, but maybe he did. He was getting on my nerves, anyway, constantly telling jokes so a serious conversation was never possible. So, I decided to end the friendship. I would never sue him, but he did not seem to care at all that he did not pay me back. It was probably an immature act and I would just let it go if it happened today, but I sent him a postcard reminding him about the money he owed so his parents could read it. I was hoping they would make him pay me back. Again, I was young. I learned to treat money giving as a gift instead of a loan if I ever give it to a friend again.

[Belle]

They say get them out your life or you could study it like i did and know all their tricks. I was abused as a teenager by my step dad, i think had some pd. I came across narcississm and realised my sister has it and i was her vistim. I have been in relationships with 2 narcs, im an empath and highly sensitive but because i was a victim of abuse and then my sis you grow a victim mentality and evil people spot it a mile off so that is maybe how u attract them.

The victim mentality - that's a very good point samantha.

I'm sure that's what made me wide open to what happened to me, sure enough too my abuser / recent narcissist presented him loud and clear as well as a victim to end all victims (ie nobody was more abused than he was!)

I've learned to see myself as a co-conspiritor and made active choices - which starts to change the victim mentality and puts me back in the driving seat - I hope.

I want to end the cycle.

[Seawolf]

I try to find people who are supportive in my life because I was abused and can get involved with abusive people.

There's really nothing you can do to change a narcissist, they usually don't believe they can do anything wrong, and get very defensive at any criticism. You can pray for them, and then move on with your life as best you can.

[samantha]

Thats right narcississts are basically doomed. When i accidently came across it it described my sisters strange behaivour to a tee. And since finding more about it i have witnessed the classic things they do, but there is certain ways to react to them and the minute i reacted the way the narc did not want me to and realised she could not fool me and use me anymore she wanted me out her life, she stayed with my mum and told her i was not to ever be back in the house. Once the victim realises what is happening and do something about it, the narc will throw them away like an old toy because the victim is no longer giving them there supply.

[Belle]

What's so so so so sad is that they are abused and sick people - and I guess the lesson for the rest of us is to walk away - I like to try and "help" but admitting I can't, well that's tough. Particularly when dealing with people who are hurting in such a way.

But, there you go. That is it. I can help myself.

[Seawolf]

But, there you go. That is it. I can help myself.

That's great! I really believe if we take care of ourselves instead of trying to fix others it makes the world a better place.

[Belle]

That's great! I really believe if we take care of ourselves instead of trying to fix others it makes the world a better place.

I'm morphing into that position and it agrees with my belief "It's all about me" which makes me sound narcisstic (but I'm talking tongue in cheek).

I wonder if narcisstics were left alone they would self-heal somewhat.

I would love to hear about a narcisstic that was able to manage their condition. I'm also wondering with a degree of anxiety that I might have a tendency in this direction? Don't worry you don't need to confirm / deny that!

I'm sure tho now I am aware of it more, and also having had unpleasant brushes wiht it, I will be able to avoid it in the future, at least direct entanglement.

[Seawolf]

I'm morphing into that position and it agrees with my belief "It's all about me" which makes me sound narcisstic (but I'm talking tongue in cheek).

I wonder if narcisstics were left alone they would self-heal somewhat.

I would love to hear about a narcisstic that was able to manage their condition. I'm also wondering with a degree of anxiety that I might have a tendency in this direction? Don't worry you don't need to confirm / deny that!

I'm sure tho now I am aware of it more, and also having had unpleasant brushes wiht it, I will be able to avoid it in the future, at least direct entanglement.
I'm not sure but I think iif a narcissist knew they had the condition they wouldn't have it anymore. Also I don't think focusing on working on yourself is narcissistic because a narcissist wouldn't feel like there's anything to work on.

[Silver]

Hi Belle. It can be tricky to disentangle one's self from relationships that end up seeming to suck all the enjoyment (and $$$!) out of you. I think real narcissists and advantage-takers look at you and I and see a mark - we look at them and see someone to feel sorry for, appeals to our image of ourselves as helpers, care-takers, compassionate ones. We just need to know who genuinely needs what we have to give (just not our money, or so much of it, lol).

[Belle]

Hi Belle. It can be tricky to disentangle one's self from relationships that end up seeming to suck all the enjoyment (and $$$!) out of you. I think real narcissists and advantage-takers look at you and I and see a mark - we look at them and see someone to feel sorry for, appeals to our image of ourselves as helpers, care-takers, compassionate ones. We just need to know who genuinely needs what we have to give (just not our money, or so much of it, lol).

I think that's really insightful, it appealed to my egoic need to be a rescuer, my need to be needed, and so on. Another personality disorder at stake perhaps, a codependency at its finest.

This friend went ballistic at me when my life took a downturn and I was no longer serving him and meeting his needs.

Sometimes compassion calls for tough love

[Ivy]

Belle, you would need to be a qualified psychiatrist and carry out a series of diagnostic interviews over a period of time in order to diagnose such a complex disorder.

It really isn't appropriate to attempt to diagnose a person yourself, particularly under the circumstances that you are enquiring about (being owed money).

If you want your money back, you need to go through the proper channels - go to the police if he de-frauded you, or take out a civil case against him if there was no criminal activity.

Neither of these routes will be helped with any sort of diagnosis of him being ill. I'm finding it difficult to understand why you are asking about managing a suspected illness under these circumstances.

[Belle]

Hi - well the reasons for asking were multifarious. There was a position of compassion for starters - as such a personlity is derived from an unhappy childhood. If - and i emphasise the if as I do know I will never truly know - that he is narcisstic - then my heart does ache for him.

It was suggested to me at a very low point that he could be narcisstic and I wrote the post at a very low point - low and frustrated and despairing and also a point of deep fear. And if I go there in my head, I can pull myself to a very low and fearful point again. I've been hugely damaged by this individual - not just about the money - that is largely academic - it was a path I walked and I chose that path at that time.

I didn't realise that the diagnosis was so complex but thank you for advising me.

I did wonder if different personalities might flex around different behaviours and different methodologies - and whilst I do seek justice in this situ, it was about getting the justice in the best way possible. If that's the court, so be it. It was more about managing myself, stopping myself getting more hurt and damaged, getting the desired outcome in the best possible way, as well as in a way that might not damage him further should he have such a disorder.

I am sorry you find it difficult to understand why I asked the question - but I do have reasons but I'm probably not being so great at explaining. If that question was naive then there you go, I have learned and I am learning.

I didn't want the whole q to be about this scenario as there are other "suspected narcisstic" in my life, and hence the wider q comes along as to how to avoid, how to stop attracting, what to do for the best.

The advice is coming through pretty clear that not to get involved - and that is something I find interesting as it presses my buttons and internally I go "no". So that opens up the next chapter - and that's good as life is so progressive.

I'm hugely grateful for people's views, shared experiences and so on. It's an emotive topic for me, ultimately it doesn't matter and I'm learning to let go and I'm healing.

Thanks for your challenge, it's made me think very deeply.

(I'm still sad about it all tho - very very sad - less about the money which is just - money - but more about the betrayal, the disappointment, the end of the relatedness really - but hey. Onwards and upwards)

[Ivy]

the wider q comes along as to how to avoid, how to stop attracting, what to do for the best.

Thanks for your challenge, it's made me think very deeply.

(I'm still sad about it all tho - very very sad - less about the money which is just - money - but more about the betrayal, the disappointment, the end of the relatedness really - but hey. Onwards and upwards)

Thank you for accepting that the challenge was offered with the best intentions.

I feel that the wider question here is really what holds the key - that this is not about the other, but more about what makes you tick, what attracts you to them and what attracts them to you. It's about digging really deep and listening to the honest voice of your feelings (your desires and fears) and trusting what it says to be the reality of that moment.

With regards to the emotions, I feel that what you shared of your journey in the marrying the minds thread can be linked helpfully to the situations you are facing... http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=44012

All the best.

[Belle]

Indeed Meadows. Our own experience shapes our wisdom. Thank you for linking.

I'm looking ahead to a better life personally, richer for the experience.

[samantha]

Hi this is for Belle, have you heard of Sam Vankin? He is the author of Malignant Self Love which tells you all about Narcissistic Personality Disorder, he also has alot of videos on you tube explaining all the different ways the act and info about the victims. I found it pretty hard to understand at first so i googled Narcissistic Pesronality Disorder and found loads about it and also peoples experiences. I studied it a great deal as there is quite alot to know about it. As i was abused as a teen physically, mentally and emotionally for 5 years and as i said in a previous reply i grew a victim mentality and i was a magnet to messed up people, every man i met was not right and treated me badly. The thing was i didint relise this until recently but everytime i met someone for the first time i didnt have to even speak to that person and i knew that this person was not trust worthy but i didnt listen to my feelings and still went there and it proved right everytime. I used to say how can i possibly know what a person is like without even speaking to them but i realise know it was either my intuition or as a victim i could tell. At least i no now and i will not get roped in again by them.

[Belle]

Thank you samantha. Well done on breaking your pattern of abuse, I'm sorry you had such a hard time along the way as it sounds monstrous. i do believe tho that these cycles are repeated until you learn the lessons and so people like you are inspirational - to know that there is a future where you can be free of the similar scenarios.

[samantha]

Thanks belle! It has been an awful time and i suffered at the hands of messed up people for nearly 20 years and im suprised i have not ended up alot worse. I knew though it would get me one day and it did and was ill for 5 years but if i hadnt been i wouldnt know what i know now and i was actually led to it by sheer mistake. There was many times i questioned my own sanity and if i was doing something to deserve this unconsciously but i knew deep down i wasnt. They just pick certain people to pick on like the ones who are sensitive and introverted. Thing is im empathic as well and sensitive to energy so i always knew what they really ment and when they were lying. No matter what i would never get them back or even lower myself to their level.

[Belle]

You could be describing me samantha. Another co-conspiritor in such scenarios. I try to be optimistic about the stuff. Such amazing lessons - ok I would rather have learnt other ways. And yes 20 years or 30 years or so but it could have been 50 years, it might not have been learnt and I might (and indeed so might you - and others) still be there, still living that crazy and sad co-dependency.

Just a thought for celebration, in the midst of this discusssion.

[samantha]

Thats very true and im glad i found out. I learned alot too.