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Perspective
06-10-2010, 06:55 PM
In the end, if you avoid pain, you'll love less, feel less, be less. True fulfillment comes at some cost.I've had a tendancy to want to avoid pain... or to let it consume me. lol
How do you find the balance?

At times, pain has been able to teach me a lot... but must it come at so much...pain? ;)

Starbuck
06-10-2010, 07:54 PM
Buddhists say we should walk the middle path, ie between the poles of joy and pain. I don't think there could be any growth without pain but at the same time we don't need to stay in it. I like to think of any emotion, event or thought like a cloud passing overhead - it will linger for a while and shut out the light, but it will pass by nature. Therefore we can't get too attached to any state of mind, or indeed anything at all. Nothing is permanent.

Lynn
06-10-2010, 08:07 PM
Hello

Being one that suffers from Chronic pain on a daily basis I have found that embracing it be there helps a ton.

I am not only talking either on the physical injury pain but on the emotional pain it too bring forth. I used to get mad and do the WHY me.....but that just fed into it more and brought out negative emotions.

In finding that place of balance I have found that place to wake in the morning and go OK this and that hurts yes but " I am alive" having had an NDE I know how very blessed I am. Too then I can take it farther and go ....

I fractrued C4 in me neck man I am blesse to be walking or even more not on a machine to breath. Finding the possitives in a sea of what could be negatives if finding that place of balance.


Lynn

Perspective
06-10-2010, 08:18 PM
Thanks for your replies.

-snip-

Starbuck - well put. I'm working toward handling emotions more gracefully like that.

Lynn - Thanks for sharing your experiences & about gratitude.
Also, you're signature quote, "Just Become" really resonates with me.


Edit by SF Staff

Xan
06-10-2010, 10:21 PM
Perspective... The best method I know for getting free of pain of all kinds is EFT - Emotional Freedom Technique. You can learn more about it in this article: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3784 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fshowthread.php%253 Ft%253D3784)


blessings,
Xan

Perspective
08-10-2010, 09:53 PM
-snip-

Xan,
Thanks for that info. It sounds interesting & worth looking into more. I had massages from a guy who seemed to do some of that muscle testing. I wonder if thinking & feeling about metaphysical-related affirmations while pressing pressure points would help?


Edit by SF Staff

Leah85
10-10-2010, 03:49 AM
Kabbalah says there's no point in suffering... That pain is not needed for spiritual evolution. I would say that suffering is not the point, or even the mean that God wants us to go through the process. Suffering is more like a reaction, a manifestation into reality that we are not living the life we were supposed to, or a lack of joy for being away of what we truly desire or are seeking. There is suffering at different levels - physical, emotional, psychological - and sometimes it is impossibe at all to avoid or prevent it, and it has more or less direct consequences in our lives. I would not say that pain teaches us, it warns us, awakes us, but we have to know how not to let it consume us, and that might be a hard task sometimes. Could it be a tool used by God to teach us, change us somehow?... I don't know, but I hope He is aware of the suffering that millions of innocent people are going through...

mahakali
10-10-2010, 05:14 AM
here is a good website that speaks about the witnessed state http://www.kundalini-teacher.com/chakras/witness.php (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .kundalini-teacher.com%252Fchakras%252Fwitness.php) dont avoid the problem just think about the pain wile detaching from the emotion, not feelings, these are different from emotion. An emotion is in our memory banks attached to an event that causes blind spots over our eyes. a feeling is pure. with pain we should analyze it and come to a true understanding of why we may feel think or act in a negative way. the truth will set you free. this practice helped me more than i could say, we truly do have the capability to control our mind. i recommend the movie ''What the bleep, down the rabbit hole'' it helped me start this practice. This is a heavy documentary/movie about quantum theory and it will take a few watches to understand.

Perspective
13-10-2010, 01:12 AM
Leah,
Thanks for your insights. Kabbalah is new to me. I wonder if Christianity also has some kind of mystic scriptures that help with meditation.
Knowing that there is so much suffering going on & that we are all connected makes me wonder if we'd ever be really free of suffering.

Mahakali,
That website looks interesting, thanks for sharing. I also want to learn more about the quantum theory. I was thinking about your signature quote from Buddha. It seems that anger is turning from our spiritual selves, looking to blame, (so maybe striving for our ego part with a bottomless pit of cravings).

Speaking of Buddhism, & what you mentioned, Mahakali, I've been reading, "The Heart of the Buddha's Teachings." Among many good insights, I liked this one:

The practice of not clinging to or rejecting feelings is an important part of meditation. If we face our feelings with care, affection & non-violence, we can transform them into a kind of energy that is healthy & nourishing... When a feeling arises, Right Mindfulness identifies it, simply recognizes what is there & whether it is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Right mindfulness is like a mother. When her child is sweet, she loves him & when her child is crying, she still loves him.

Mountain-Goat
13-10-2010, 09:03 PM
I've had a tendancy to want to avoid pain... or to let it consume me. lol
How do you find the balance? Hello Perspective.
1: Sharing the mechanics of my balance will be of no use to you within the context of Pain, as this dance of balance consists of knowing one's inner conflict.
Knowing one's weakness' and strengths, when to push forward and when to hold back, when to comfort and when to confront.
My conflict is unique, as is yours.
Finding your balance is the right question, and that can only be answered through the experience of life's painful experiences.

2: Then, if you like, remove the concept of balance altogether.
The tug of war between avoidance and drowning, as avoidance is unproductive as too is total consumption, yes?
You choose to either avoid or confront...so, pain doesn't consume you, you choose to go into your pain.

As the Sphinx(Mystery Men) would say, If you do not have power over your pain, your pain will have power over you.
Your pain does not consume you, you consume it.
For within/beyond/behind the veil of pain is the solution for the healing of that pain.

This quote from the book you have been reading, sums it up beautifully.

The practice of not clinging(consumed) to or rejecting(avoidance) feelings is an important part of meditation. If we face our feelings with care, affection & non-violence(self love/compassion), we can transform them into a kind of energy that is healthy & nourishing... When a feeling arises, Right Mindfulness identifies it, simply recognizes what is there & whether it is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Right mindfulness is like a mother. When her child is sweet, she loves him & when her child is crying, she still loves him.
If there is a balance issue with all this, it's loving self that enables one to self confront an issue and knowing how much to push and how much to comfort within each exploration.
Some issues take a long time to heal, some don't.
Simple rule is, be toward yourself as a loving mother/father is toward a child as they heal or are hurting or have stuffed up or are disheartened by their shortcomings.

LOVE...empowers one to traverse the hellish valleys and also controls the rate of flow of what one experiences.
LOVE...the universal ingredient for every moment of one's life.
Your balance is discovered within the journey...love yourself as you walk.

7luminaries
13-10-2010, 09:24 PM
I've had a tendancy to want to avoid pain... or to let it consume me. lol
How do you find the balance?

At times, pain has been able to teach me a lot... but must it come at so much...pain? ;)

I hear you, Perspective. I really do. Mahakali makes a very important point about accepting your feelings...and what causes them. Very difficult...painful...but key to sanity and making some peace with your fears. And some of these can be pretty terrifying, if you're like me, so that's an accomplishment all on its own.

Here are a few other things I find helpful...since I've been dealing w/a lot of pain too these days...

Retreating to the cave...only recommended for short durations (LOL)...
Tonglen practise...taking suffering and giving love. You can just start with your own suffering and give back love.
Open/inner heart meditation...sometimes this is very hard...but don't force it. Eventually you will make some progress, for certain...even I did...tho it's 1 step fwd, 2 steps back often...but at the very least, it will let you be more accepting of our humanity and frailty...no one can be on their game all the time.
General meditative focus on love, sending love, and positive intention. Sometimes the love we give and the love we get is all that really gets us through.
I'm supposed to be inviting the transcendentals to my meditations but I haven't quite got the hang of that yet...however acc'd to those wiser than me, it is supposed to be v helpful...Here's to transforming our pain...and transcending our suffering
so we can be love and strength to ourselves & to those we love and who need us most...

All the best...
7L

Perspective
14-10-2010, 11:29 PM
If there is a balance issue with all this, it's loving self that enables one to self confront an issue and knowing how much to push and how much to comfort within each exploration.
Some issues take a long time to heal, some don't.
Simple rule is, be toward yourself as a loving mother/father is toward a child as they heal or are hurting or have stuffed up or are disheartened by their shortcomings.

LOVE...empowers one to traverse the hellish valleys and also controls the rate of flow of what one experiences.
LOVE...the universal ingredient for every moment of one's life.
Your balance is discovered within the journey...love yourself as you walk.

Hi AC,
Thanks for your insights & help with this. I like how you take a proactive approach - exploring, instead of just reacting to chaos. I used to do that more often & you reminded me of how much it helped. I love what you wrote about love! :smile: So true & so wonderful!

In this book, I've been reading about not getting attached & to realizing non-self... which helps avoid excessive suffering. I'm beginning to see that many of my fears are unfounded - based on misconceptions. Still, I think that to love someone, is partly, to feel attached to them, or to prefer their presence over their absense... & love is, IMO, is what makes this world go 'round... love for self & others.

7Luminaries,
Thanks for your thoughts. I like meditation... & sometimes I feel like hiding out in a cave! :)
Really, nature is so healing!

Mountain-Goat
16-10-2010, 11:04 PM
Hi AC,
Thanks for your insights & help with this. Always a joy to walk with you.
I like how you take a proactive approach - exploring, instead of just reacting to chaos. I used to do that more often & you reminded me of how much it helped. I love what you wrote about love! :smile: So true & so wonderful!No matter how tumultuous the seas of life can be, you are the captain of your ship and you can steer it.
It's in the storms of life that one grows/evolves from deck hand to captain.
(Captain, according to your own self awareness and acceptance of responsibility of the role.)

In fact, without steering it within those harsh times, the outcome would be far worse.
It's not about never being in storms, it's about developing the ability to traverse these storms with skill and confidence and being enlivened within the experience.
These attributes can be summed up into being in a state of calm and joyful enthusiasm.
Within the storms of life, you remain tranquil and in control.
Within the surrounding chaos, if you are tranquil and clear, you will see there is a safe passage through.
The storm becomes, "no big deal"

In this book, I've been reading about not getting attached & to realizing non-self... which helps avoid excessive suffering. I'm beginning to see that many of my fears are unfounded - based on misconceptions. Still, I think that to love someone, is partly, to feel attached to them, or to prefer their presence over their absense... & love is, IMO, is what makes this world go 'round... love for self & others. Attachment:
I offer this extreme example of it. A Leech attachs not 'cus it wants to or has a strong desire to.
It attaches 'cus it needs to, it's survival depends on it.
It lacks something, so it attaches to another to fulfill it's lack.

To be whole, complete in oneself, one does not need love from another.
And in that state of fullness, any love recieved from another is enjoyed, instead of used like medicine.
Do you go the movies 'cus you need to or simply for the pleasure of it?

Compare the difference if you were poor and someone gave you $100 or you were financially full and they gave you $100.
If you were poor you would spend the money on necessities. It helps, you are thankful, but with that 'joy' is also the pain of the continuation of your poverty.
If you were not poor you would spend the money on a 'treat' for yourself or for another. your joy would be more and there is no pain.

Consider how your fav dish tastes when you are very hungry compared to a normal meal time and you take your time to savour the food.
When hungry(need), do you savour the food or just get it to the stomach asap?

It appears that if there is no attachment or need for love, then love becomes obsolete.
On the contrary <--haha, I'm channeling some posh english dude.
"Where's my pipe and silk scarf."
"In the bed sitting room dear."
"Oh stuffed pheasant !"
"Roger!"

On the contrary. When one is in a state of fullness/completeness/wholeness/healed, love is absolutely breathtaking.
The slightest gift/expression of love offered by another has such a profound intensity to it, though this intensity is gentle.
It impacts you but it doesn't hit like a freakin tidal wave.
Unlike some people one walks by who have somehow managed to drown themselves in perfume or aftershave.

I was in the mall one day. I had a mental list of several things I had to do.
I had already done a couple and was purposely walking toward the next when this person walked by me.
Well, within seconds I was like,
"Hey....hey, um, what? Where am I going? Is there a backpack on my shoulder? Is that mine? It looks like mine, why do I have it?
Okay...I'm in the mall...why? Am I going to the bus...did I just get off the bus?
What day is it...what time is it...are those my feet...I need a coffee...ah coffee, I know what coffee is...yeah, I'll go have a coffee and work my way back to reality from there."

The scary part when experiencing or practicing detachment, is the moment you have to let go.
And I theorise for each individual's journey, there will be many other elements related to letting go that will be scary.
But that's it, they are all related to the letting go phase.

It's like one has been living on an island for many years.
This island does sustain one's existance, but it's far from ideal.
Well, it's that far from ideal that it's just enough to allow one to survive. One is not living joyfully or vibrantly. There is enjoyment of life, but it's little compared to the hard slog of simply staying alive.

Then someone arrives on a boat...yeah, "I'm on a boat!"...
someone arrives on a boat and describes the island they are on, and it's paradise compared to the survival island one has been on for most of one's life.

But in order to go to the new island, the ideal island, one has to leave this island behind.
Not only that, but the voyage across the sea is not very friendly looking and it looks like a long trip.
And who is this person proclaiming what their island is like, it might be a trick.
Trust and faith come into the equation.
Letting go of what is familar, to gain something better, though one has no proof it is better, takes trust and faith.

But, with journeys like these, these personal 'enlightenment/evolution/self awareness/healing journeys, the built in safety mechanism is, no matter what you do, you can always go back.

The scary part is taking the leap of faith into the unknown, because the unknown(living without attachment)cannot be understood, cannot be known, untill you let go and actually experience it.
Then and only then will the light of realisation come on and you will see the beauty of it , the reality and truth of it.

But remember, you can go back if you don't like it or it's not what you envisioned.
But if you don't try it, you will never know.
Oh, and of course, these leaps of faith aren't like in the movies with swirling music and beautiful women with perfect hair and white horses and rugged men with straight teeth.
(speaking of teeth, what with some of these americans with their uber white teeth?)
You still gotta go across that tumultuous sea which may contain sea sickness, you may get soaked and they may serve Quiche every night and play Musicals on the inboard cable network.
(well, those are my horrors. Insert your own here)

But once you begin the journey and especially once you arrive at the destination, you will see that a lot of the horrors were non existant.
Many of them were simply projected fears. Again, these fears cannot be dispelled until one takes the journey.

The journey, is where life is. The ideal one is looking for, is through the journey.
But if one is attached to this life, one cannot obtain the next.

I have shared this with you before but I feel to share it again.
My journey of detachment began when my wife left.
This was...hmm...15ish years ago.
I wasn't aware it was a journey of detachment till...3ish years ago..well, only when I began reading Eastern philophy via Osho did I understand the concepts of detachment.

Yet there I was,"losing" things one thing at a time. Looking back at it now, my iner self, my captain, knew exactly what was required for my healing.
The ultimate detachment for em was my suicide attempt.
Detaching from life altogether. What I didn't realise at that time was I was not detaching from life, but the dysfunctional prison life I had created and developed over 40 years.

I now, since that final detachment(well huge, I'm not clear if it's the last one) Now, since that...because of that final detachment experience, I now have the life I have been searching for all those years.
And rest assured, a huge portion of those 15 years were hellish, but if I had to do it all again, in light of this beautiful life I have now...bring it on becuase in total,
I have suffered most of my 40+ years, but compared to this life I have now, all that suffering, the pain of it is merely a foot note in my book of life.
Yet because of that suffering, the rest of the book is full of self empowerment, wisdom, joy and love.

Life...is disco?
No wait...~shakes fist at Mystery Men~
Life is...all of life, every moment of it is...a marvel to behold and experience.

EDIT: I so forgot this part. There is a huge difference between attachment and connection, though they appear to be the same.
Attachment is based on need from lack of something.
Connection is choosing to be with others, giving and recieving, based on a foundation of no lack.
So, to remove attachment from one's modus operandi does not mean one removes relationships and all this is wonderful about them.
It's like how much more wonderful it feels to be loved by another because they want to be with you, and not that they need to.
To enjoy another's company just because of who they are and not for what they can do for you is most wonderous for both giver and reciever.

Perspective
22-10-2010, 06:21 PM
Always a joy to walk with you.Thanks, & with you.

No matter how tumultuous the seas of life can be, you are the captain of your ship and you can steer it...Good analogy.

It attaches 'cus it needs to, it's survival depends on it.
It lacks something, so it attaches to another to fulfill it's lack.

To be whole, complete in oneself, one does not need love from another.
And in that state of fullness, any love recieved from another is enjoyed, instead of used like medicine.
That makes sense. It seems common to look outside ourselves for fulfillment... I know personally, I have - because I couldn't imagine that I could feel really loved just on my own... infact, I've so often betrayed myself in one way or another, so that's the last place I'd look. But I'm starting to realize that everything I think or feel is, infact within me... Yes, there are external sources of inspiration, but they only "water the seed" within me.

<--haha, I'm channeling some posh english dude.
"Where's my pipe and silk scarf."
"In the bed sitting room dear."
"Oh stuffed pheasant !"
"Roger!"
I'm curious, AC. How, when & why do you channel others - spirits or other people living?

You still gotta go across that tumultuous sea which may contain sea sickness, you may get soaked and they may serve Quiche every night and play Musicals on the inboard cable network.
(well, those are my horrors. Insert your own here)

But once you begin the journey and especially once you arrive at the destination, you will see that a lot of the horrors were non existant.
Many of them were simply projected fears. Again, these fears cannot be dispelled until one takes the journey.

The journey, is where life is. The ideal one is looking for, is through the journey.
But if one is attached to this life, one cannot obtain the next.
Another good analogy... except the part about musicals... one person's heaven is another person's hell... which is another topic. :)

In a book about NDE's - I read how some spirits seem so burdened - held back, seemingly attached to this world - without being able to move on. It was explained that these spirits could not leave their gods here, so they could not move on to better. It gave me new meaning to "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me."

I now, since that final detachment(well huge, I'm not clear if it's the last one) Now, since that...because of that final detachment experience, I now have the life I have been searching for all those years.
And rest assured, a huge portion of those 15 years were hellish, but if I had to do it all again, in light of this beautiful life I have now...bring it on becuase in total,
I have suffered most of my 40+ years, but compared to this life I have now, all that suffering, the pain of it is merely a foot note in my book of life.
Yet because of that suffering, the rest of the book is full of self empowerment, wisdom, joy and love.
It's hard to imagine anyone being in such complete hell or heaven... isn't life about waves - ups & downs... Thank, God!
Do you think that such suffering is necessary for real joy, wisdom, self empowerment & love? You know how Jesus suffered a lot in the Garden of Gethsemene... do we all have to follow his example in that way?

Life...is disco?
No wait...~shakes fist at Mystery Men~
Life is...all of life, every moment of it is...a marvel to behold and experience. :D
When I meditate - it is a marvel... & it seems that's what your signature is about.

There is a huge difference between attachment and connection, though they appear to be the same.
Attachment is based on need from lack of something.
Connection is choosing to be with others, giving and recieving, based on a foundation of no lack.
So, to remove attachment from one's modus operandi does not mean one removes relationships and all this is wonderful about them.
It's like how much more wonderful it feels to be loved by another because they want to be with you, and not that they need to.
To enjoy another's company just because of who they are and not for what they can do for you is most wonderous for both giver and reciever.
It is a lighter, free-er more joyful experience. I admit, I've been really attached - but it didn't feel right - scared of losing what I thought I needed.
So many teachings are about looking outside ourselves for answers, etc... & I do think that we need others to learn & love... but the appreciation & love of others is enhanced when there is a good base of self-love & appreciation.

Mountain-Goat
22-10-2010, 08:14 PM
That makes sense. It seems common to look outside ourselves for fulfillment... I know personally, I have - because I couldn't imagine that I could feel really loved just on my own... infact, I've so often betrayed myself in one way or another, so that's the last place I'd look. But I'm starting to realize that everything I think or feel is, infact within me... Yes, there are external sources of inspiration, but they only "water the seed" within me. For the West, psychiartry and psychology were the first inward explorations and they are only 100 or so years old.
The East has been inwardly exploring for centuries.
From the little I have read, Eastern thought has only been introduced to the West since the late 1800s and it took off in the 1960s.

Loving self appears to be a selfish act, but the more one loves self, the more one loves others.
It's that shift in priorities that feels uncomfortable. One reason is the whole doctrine of self sacrifice, putting oneself last.
Or it's arrogance to think highly of oneself.
It's humilty to not be deserving.
Though those two have nothing to do with loving self.
Loving self is simply taking good care of oneself, and doing one's best to do so.
It's not about, "Oh, I'm the most amazing person in the world, I love you."
I'm curious, AC. How, when & why do you channel others - spirits or other people living? Channeling, like how an actor does. Instead of saying "I'm imitating an english person", I say channeling.
I'm not actually channeling, it's just a creative use of words.
Another good analogy... except the part about musicals... one person's heaven is another person's hell... which is another topic. :) ~laughs~ Yes, that's why I put in "(well, those are my horrors. Insert your own here)"
In a book about NDE's - I read how some spirits seem so burdened - held back, seemingly attached to this world - without being able to move on. It was explained that these spirits could not leave their gods here, so they could not move on to better. It gave me new meaning to "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." I, having had a long history with wanting to die, death was always a painful thing and attachment was a major issue.
Not wanting to leave this place to go to the next.
But since hospital and my beautiful time with Stumpy the Kookaburra, I have relooked at death, and I now have total peace with it.

And as you have read with the spirits, the key was burdens.
I saw, in my life, that if I died(back then) I would have regrets, unfinished business, unfulfillment and these would be burdens in the next life.
Those are what made the thoughts of death so scary and painful.

The battle between the effort to sort myself out against the pain of doing so.
Many days the pain felt unbarable that it pushed me to strong thoughts of suicide.
But the inner captain, in a non verbal way kept saying, no keep going, there is a vital clue just beyond this terrible storm.
And there always was.
It's hard to imagine anyone being in such complete hell or heaven... isn't life about waves - ups & downs... Thank, God! Yes, that's why I said a huge portion was hellish, not all of it.
No dark valleys without bright mountain tops and vice versa.
Do you think that such suffering is necessary for real joy, wisdom, self empowerment & love? You know how Jesus suffered a lot in the Garden of Gethsemene... do we all have to follow his example in that way? You follow what resonates with you.
You are inspired by what resonates with you.
As for suffering, realising I was wrong was painful, but it was also a most wonderous turning point of my life.
I do not know if it is necessary, all I know is my journey.
And in my journey, just beyond the pain that I have to go through, is the answer I'm searching for.
When I meditate - it is a marvel... & it seems that's what your signature is about. In that stillness of mind, one's inner sight/insight becomes clearer and "life begins talking about itself".
It is a lighter, free-er more joyful experience. I admit, I've been really attached - but it didn't feel right - scared of losing what I thought I needed.
So many teachings are about looking outside ourselves for answers, etc... & I do think that we need others to learn & love... but the appreciation & love of others is enhanced when there is a good base of self-love & appreciation. If you have just begun your journey regarding non attachment, well, in regards to all new journeys/practices/experiences,
one step at a time, no rush, eyes open, mind clear, and what is required will appear.

It's like how it's described in the bible.
That small voice that whispers to you. You won't be able to hear it if you're "busy".
Once you see and you can activate it, you can then go about your "busy" life but internally, you are still and quiet and your vision is clear.

Or it's like those 3D pictures. In order to see the 3D image in the 2D page, one must keep still and(various techniques) see the image.
Then, once the understanding of how to see it is "locked in", one can then move around and still see the image.

The hard part is the initial adjusting(change) to see the image. Once seen, it's always easy to re-see it.

Non attachment is the same. It's not till you see it via experiencing it do you see how much more wonderful it is compared to attachment.

Or...gee, there's a lot of ors...I feel like I'm on a Viking ship or something.

Or, like the cartoon of the 2D girl being taken into the 3D dimension by that guy, from the What The Bleep Doco.

She's frightened because...ah here's the clip (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatc h%3Fv%3DBWyTxCsIXE4)

Perspective
26-10-2010, 06:53 PM
The battle between the effort to sort myself out against the pain of doing so.
Many days the pain felt unbarable that it pushed me to strong thoughts of suicide.
But the inner captain, in a non verbal way kept saying, no keep going, there is a vital clue just beyond this terrible storm.
And there always was...

And in my journey, just beyond the pain that I have to go through, is the answer I'm searching for. Seal-searching takes courage! A lot of people (including myself) avoid such pain at all costs. But just as the most excruciating pain of giving birth - I found ways to cope (don't ask how :D) - & the joy of bringing life into this world was more than worth it! Not only that, but I never saw another human being the same again! They each could have been my baby! :hug2:
It's like how it's described in the bible.
That small voice that whispers to you. You won't be able to hear it if you're "busy".
Once you see and you can activate it, you can then go about your "busy" life but internally, you are still and quiet and your vision is clear... By busy, I'm guessing you mean mentally busy, especially. I agree - & sometimes it all gets too much! I think I'm one of those people who can't filter very well. Some people can ignore noises or demands, but I can't - it gets to be an overload if I don't take a break from it all.
Lately, I've been too busy juggling kids, house etc. & reading about meditation to meditate. :D But I do take those little moments, which are so refreshing!
Or...gee, there's a lot of ors...I feel like I'm on a Viking ship or something. I like your humor, AC! :D
Or, like the cartoon of the 2D girl being taken into the 3D dimension by that guy, from the What The Bleep Doco.

She's frightened because...ah here's the clip (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DBWyTxCsIXE4) That was good! Thanks for sharing! I've been thinking of ways to teach my kids some of the things I'm learning - & that looks like a good way to - as well as deepen my own understanding.
Thanks again, AC. :smile:

Royalite
26-10-2010, 07:32 PM
You can learn to detach and offer nothing but unconditional love; thus, stopping the pendulum swing. Giving and receiving without any expectations.

I'm not there so I can't advocate but if the avoidance of pain but the continuation of experience and growth is what you're looking for then maybe focusing on unconditional love is something that can work.

7luminaries
26-10-2010, 08:19 PM
I dont find detaching helpful. But trying to attach more equally, more fully, that I can get. I practise tonglen in that sense, and it is an amazing, truly healing meditation.

Sometimes, it's also helpful to do some other heart meditations as prep for tonglen, particularly if you're feeling low.

Mountain-Goat
26-10-2010, 11:55 PM
Seal-searching takes courage! A lot of people (including myself) avoid such pain at all costs. Yet it's the act of avoiding that perpetuates the issue that robs one of living free from pain.
With the cost analogy, it's a quick profit to avoid pain, but the huge dept has remained.
Facing and dealing with each pain reduces the debt till one day you are finally free.
But just as the most excruciating pain of giving birth - I found ways to cope (don't ask how :D) - & the joy of bringing life into this world was more than worth it! Not only that, but I never saw another human being the same again! They each could have been my baby! :hug2: And does the pain of childbirth linger after giving birth?
So too with pain of inner issues once the source is dealt with and healing is complete.
By busy, I'm guessing you mean mentally busy, especially. I agree - & sometimes it all gets too much! Yes, mental and emotional busy. And how does one be busy? By choosing to.
I concur, it can get all too much, I did try to kill myself for this very reason.
But now, with all issues confronted and dealt with, I now have the free life I worked for for all those years.
I think I'm one of those people who can't filter very well. "As within, so without. You cannot think one thing and produce another." - Emmet Fox
Some people can ignore noises or demands, but I can't - it gets to be an overload if I don't take a break from it all. "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make our world." - The Buddha

Lately, I've been too busy juggling kids, house etc. & reading about meditation to meditate. :D But I do take those little moments, which are so refreshing!But if you have been creating moments, then you are not too busy, Yes? Busy, yes...too busy, no.
Those little moments will all add up, each step on the journey to transformation.
I like your humor, AC! :D ~bows and smiles~
That was good! Thanks for sharing! I've been thinking of ways to teach my kids some of the things I'm learning - & that looks like a good way to - as well as deepen my own understanding.
Thanks again, AC. :smile: Everything you are recieving Perspective, is enabling you to heal/transform/be free.
Most times you see no external change, but change is happening.
I was pleasantly suprised to find a cure for depression. Did not see that coming at all.
Every moment you meditate, every time you read a book, ask questions, ponder your situation, etc, they are all steps toward your goal.
Everytime you acknowledge your pain and become aware there is a reason for it, this too is progress.
Self awareness - the ability to see, the willingness to see.

Perspective
28-10-2010, 09:04 PM
Dynamist,
Thanks for your comments. How amazing it would be to experience unconditional love! But like you I'm not there yet either. Still, it's something to strive for... starting within... & then moving outward.

7lumminaries,
Thanks for sharing.
What is tonglen? I just searched & it seems to be all about giving to others, which seems kindof unbalanced to me. I still struggle with co-dependency so I'm sensitive about the need to balance love of self with love of others.

I agree about the detaching in the emotional sense... it seems to be the opposite of love/care. But I realize that it is good to detach from "hang-ups" that can be like obsessions.

Yet it's the act of avoiding that perpetuates the issue that robs one of living free from pain.
With the cost analogy, it's a quick profit to avoid pain, but the huge dept has remained.
Facing and dealing with each pain reduces the debt till one day you are finally free. That's true about avoiding pain...sometimes it's just habit. I'm trying to not listen to music all of the time when I'm in the car. Or instead of keeping myself too busy to think about painful experiences, to take some time to think & feel it through. But it seems obvious that pain is & will always be part of life... here & there. But you're probably talking about the extra pain we add on top of the painful experiences life lets us have.
"As within, so without. You cannot think one thing and produce another." - Emmet Fox
"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make our world." - The Buddha Thoughts are powerful & every feeling & experience is filtered through them...
Still, there are external circumstances & people that are what they are, no matter what you think.
For example, If you babysat for me 24-7 for a week... it would be a very enlightening experience, to even you! :D
Everything you are recieving Perspective, is enabling you to heal/transform/be free.
Most times you see no external change, but change is happening.
I was pleasantly suprised to find a cure for depression. Did not see that coming at all.
Every moment you meditate, every time you read a book, ask questions, ponder your situation, etc, they are all steps toward your goal.
Everytime you acknowledge your pain and become aware there is a reason for it, this too is progress.
Self awareness - the ability to see, the willingness to see. That's my goal too - to overcome depression. I know that pain is there for a reason, just as physical pain helps us stop doing something painful & take it easy so we can heal.
Thanks for your insights, AC.

Mountain-Goat
01-11-2010, 10:06 PM
That's true about avoiding pain...sometimes it's just habit. Yes, and a habit is self created so it can be changed.
A habit is choosing a similar thing so much that one doesn't need to be conscious of the decision. It becomes automatic.
But automated means less control.
Less control means you are not in charge of your life.
This decision and the thoughts preceding it happens at blistering speeds.
Getting into the quiet mind/meditative state. removes the time element and you slowly begin to see the thoughts behind the habit.
Time is non existant in the inner realm.

Then you can reprogram because you see how the dysfunction works, you know exactly what needs changing.
And how can you change what you do not know?
You know something is amiss but you don't know the process.
You know the symtoms, the outcome, but you don't know how you are making it happen.
Stop, quiet the mind and simply observe and it will appear without forcing.
Then comes the " Oh...now I see...oh that's simple to fix"
"Haha, it was right in front of me all along. It was just right there...right there...wow...awesome!"
I'm trying to not listen to music all of the time when I'm in the car. Or instead of keeping myself too busy to think about painful experiences, to take some time to think & feel it through. But it seems obvious that pain is & will always be part of life... here & there. But you're probably talking about the extra pain we add on top of the painful experiences life lets us have. Yes pain is a natural part of life, how one responds to pain however, is where the change is.
Acceptance is a big key.
Not that you accept the painful experience is to continue.
Acceptance in acknowledgement that there is something amiss and it needs your atttention.
Pain is natural, continuous pain derived by dysfunctional living is not.
In the latter, accepting the pain is to accept and acknowledge there is a problem.
Fix the problem, pain is gone.
Next time another pain comes along, do the same with that.

Thoughts are powerful & every feeling & experience is filtered through them...
Still, there are external circumstances & people that are what they are, no matter what you think. Yes, the outer world is the raging cyclone, but one can live from one's center, the eye of the storm which is most tranquil, the inner self beyond your thoughts.

As soon as you say, "Yes but..." you have left your center. You have now given power back to the outer, to circumstances and other people.
Find one tiny thing in your life that bugs the hell out of you, then just look at yourself in the situation.
Allow the complete picture to materialize, for within the complete picture you will see the problem.
You will see what needs fixing.

One of my annoyances while I was single parenting was my dawta would ask me to make her a sammage(sandwich).
In my head- I go to work, I do most if not all of the cleaning in the house, all the cooking, laundry, you name it , I did it.
I did my best to accomodate all their desires, sports, friends, and the like.
I don't have a problem with doing all this but to come up to me on the weekend when I finally get a moments rest and she's not doing anything all day and she asks me to make her a sammage?
"Give me a break, go make it yourself the kitchen is right there."
It made me so angry.
Does she not know what little time I have for myself?

Upon observing my pain for quite a while I found out that, without her knowing about it herself, she felt deeply loved when I made her sammages.
Her love language was gifts of service, especially things she could do herself.
Yes, she could make it herself, but her need to feel loved in the midst of the family breakup was her priority and I totally understood that.
From that day on I never complained about making her sammages.
What changed? I did.

For example, If you babysat for me 24-7 for a week... it would be a very enlightening experience, to even you! :D I do not doubt that. Even keeping an eye on my grandson for 30 minutes, if we are at the mall, is enough for me.
But give me a year of doing it and I won't have any problems.

That's my goal too - to overcome depression. I know that pain is there for a reason, just as physical pain helps us stop doing something painful & take it easy so we can heal.
Thanks for your insights, AC. You're well on your way Perspective.
But like one of the hair ads says, "Beautiful hair won't happen overnight, but it will happen."
So too with all types of change.

Deusdrum
02-11-2010, 03:29 AM
I think a lot of pain comes from the belief that we are all alone. It is pretty much a universal human trait, ok well on Earth at least; and to me it is transcended in some way by having compassion for others, and recognizing that other people go through so much of the same pain, and in this way, there is a connection, union of sorts, lessening of the 'all alone' feeling. But compassion can be painful because it hurts then to see other people hurt, and there is a lot of hurt out there. I like that one line in the movie 'Jacobs Ladder' when the chiropractor says to Tim Robbins "sometimes our demons are really angels in disguise, helping to free us from the attachments of earth" or the story of Jacob wrestling with the angel. Kind of like willingly and actively sacrificing ego elements to become more truly yourself. It can get messy sometimes, at least in my experience. Carl Jung believed that it was healthy to be somewhat neurotic, that means you care, you are still working, not settling back into complacency and stagnation. Pain, respecting the vulnerability, keeps us real, if nothing is put on the line, then what really is it worth?

Just some thoughts that come to mind on it at the moment. Perhaps i am too serious about it, it is good to keep a sense of humour also, though the subject is far from a joke. Keep a balance also. I also once read an interesting concept in a woman's book that she wrote about her near death experience, that being that Depression is actually a very selfish mental illness. I kind of found it offensive at the time a little bit, as i have struggled with depression at different times in my own life, but the more i think of it, the more it makes sense to me. Yes, it is not something to say "shame on you!" kind of thing, but it does point to the fact that, in the end, we are all sort of responsible for our state of mind. The see pain as a process necessary to re-balance our life, to be aware that it is pointing to the areas that we are avoiding and need our attention, then it can only be the way that it is, it is on us to adjust and recognize, or find the strength to give it up, let it go. I think it takes someone with uncommon moral courage to face the pain in full honesty, though i also believe people have much more in them in this sense than they realize. Or maybe i am romanticizing and getting overly sentimental here, who knows. Regardless, i love people with big hearts.

aadi
02-11-2010, 04:56 AM
There is so much wisdom here, so many opinions wow

Perspective
02-11-2010, 09:07 PM
You know something is amiss but you don't know the process.
You know the symtoms, the outcome, but you don't know how you are making it happen.
Stop, quiet the mind and simply observe and it will appear without forcing.
Then comes the " Oh...now I see...oh that's simple to fix"
"Haha, it was right in front of me all along. It was just right there...right there...wow...awesome!" ...

Yes, the outer world is the raging cyclone, but one can live from one's center, the eye of the storm which is most tranquil, the inner self beyond your thoughts.
When you mentioned raging cyclone, why did I 1st think of - my kids? :smile: I used to call 1 of my kids "Tasmanian Porcupine" - because he was always running, spinning & bouncing around & didn't have spacial boundaries - so he'd hurt us.

Anyway, the clarity & peace from meditation is worth making time for...
Thanks for that needed reminder.
Upon observing my pain for quite a while I found out that, without her knowing about it herself, she felt deeply loved when I made her sammages.
Her love language was gifts of service, especially things she could do herself.
Yes, she could make it herself, but her need to feel loved in the midst of the family breakup was her priority and I totally understood that.
From that day on I never complained about making her sammages.
What changed? I did.
I like that, AC! You discovering & exploring your annoyance, to also discover your daughter's love language & thereby improving your relationship with her - awesome!
I used to make some killer "sammages" for my dad - very imaginative combination of ingredients... Some may think they were literally killer - but it was his request! :smile:
You're well on your way Perspective.
But like one of the hair ads says, "Beautiful hair won't happen overnight, but it will happen."
So too with all types of change.
Thanks, AC. I'm trying to hurry up & have patience. :smile:
Love ya & hope you're having fun in Tassie!

Perspective
02-11-2010, 09:58 PM
I think a lot of pain comes from the belief that we are all alone. 1st off, Deusdrum - You got me really thinking & soul-searching - even though it was a little painful, thanks. :wink:

I think you're right - about the sense of being alone. I've heard another way of seeing the word, alone... ALL ONE. It's actually kindof funny when you think about how we are NEVER really alone - in many ways... we have many little good bacterial organisms living off of us, not to mention our existence is so connected with others - whether it be the food we eat, or interactions.

Anyway, maybe because we started out as babies under the necessary illusion that we were not individual, but part of our mother, is partly why we yearn to feel connected. Yet, if we try to control anything besides ourselves (to feel connected) we will likely experience pain.
I seem to be compelled to look for love... & when I've gotten a taste of unconditional love, I yearn to feel it again. It's so painful when I've thought I've lost it - as if it were outside of me, in someone who I lost... but it's within. Still, we need eachother to lean on, or be leaned on at times... & I believe they're with us, in body &/or spirit.
to me it is transcended in some way by having compassion for others, and recognizing that other people go through so much of the same pain, and in this way, there is a connection, union of sorts, lessening of the 'all alone' feeling. But compassion can be painful because it hurts then to see other people hurt, and there is a lot of hurt out there.
That's another good point.
How can you witness someone you love & feel connected to suffering, & not suffer too?
Some say to only depend on God & oneself for happiness - yet relationships are mentally & physically healthy. There's a tricky balance between loving onself & loving others, otherwise: pain.
Carl Jung believed that it was healthy to be somewhat neurotic, that means you care, you are still working, not settling back into complacency and stagnation. Pain, respecting the vulnerability, keeps us real, if nothing is put on the line, then what really is it worth? IMO, feelings motivate everything.
Richly living isn't apathy, but richly feeling - with all of the vulnerability. It's a strong, unshakable desire to learn & love, even through pain. *Goals & gratitude*
Perhaps i am too serious about it, it is good to keep a sense of humour also, though the subject is far from a joke. I agree - about both... that experiencing depression is no joke... & also that humor can be a life-savor!
Keep a balance also. I also once read an interesting concept in a woman's book that she wrote about her near death experience, that being that Depression is actually a very selfish mental illness. I kind of found it offensive at the time a little bit, as i have struggled with depression at different times in my own life, but the more i think of it, the more it makes sense to me. Yes, it is not something to say "shame on you!" kind of thing, but it does point to the fact that, in the end, we are all sort of responsible for our state of mind. I've been thinking about this... & as much as I didn't want to admit it, depression is selfish, as in focusing on oneself & one perspective to the exclusion of everything else... "sticky hangups."
It's part of the cylce - withdrawal, which causes more self-centered thinking, when others could bring fresh perspectives & open up possiblities. It's tough to be depressed when contributing to someone else's happiness. Yet it's the balance you mentioned - love of self & others. To feel like the song says, "I've got the power!" :smile: To realize that my thinking & feeling originates in me & thus my state of mind is ultimately up to me. How alone we feel can be up to us - what we focus on & whether we reach out or not.
To see pain as a process necessary to re-balance our life, to be aware that it is pointing to the areas that we are avoiding and need our attention, then it can only be the way that it is, it is on us to adjust and recognize, or find the strength to give it up, let it go. I agree... we wouldn't appreciate feeling good if we always felt good.
Also, like those grooves on the side of highways - if you vear off the road, it will make a sound to get you back on track. Pain can be useful - if we didn't feel pain, we might not feel inspired to search within to find peace, love & God.
I think it takes someone with uncommon moral courage to face the pain in full honesty, though i also believe people have much more in them in this sense than they realize. Or maybe i am romanticizing and getting overly sentimental here, who knows. Regardless, i love people with big hearts. Me too! People like that tend to be more empathatic & reciprocal.
It seems that pain comes in waves - ups & downs, a little pain, a little joy, otherwise it would be unbearable. I also admire people who have been real with themselves - as honest as they can be - they're more "real" as friends.

Aadi -
It's a great forum!

mahakali
03-11-2010, 01:23 AM
I agree, what a great forum. these things are essential to spiritual development and eventual enlightenment. even someone who is not depressed can take some of these concepts and apply this to themselves and learn so much.

Deusdrum
03-11-2010, 03:21 AM
I feel like i should add that when i look at someone who is depressed, selfishness is often the last thing that comes to mind. Most i think are just more empathetic, sensitive souls, who maybe bear more weight than is their due.

Basically, i think it is just important to escape self-labeling oneself as a victim, and that whole mentality. I like how for example Caroline Myss in one of her books finds many people who get stuck in the sort of support phase, but do not go past that, and it is easier to tell yourself 'I am a victim' because then the pressure and responsibility is off to go past that.

The real test is to keep going and stay the course when it is the hardest, because if you can perservere through that, then how much better will it be when the lighter, good phase rolls around? The worst can be the best opportunity.

Perspective
04-11-2010, 06:34 PM
Mahakali,
Thanks for your comment - & I agree - we all have issues to work through.

The real test is to keep going and stay the course when it is the hardest, because if you can perservere through that, then how much better will it be when the lighter, good phase rolls around? The worst can be the best opportunity. True!
I also don't consider depressed people "selfish" but like you said, maybe carrying more burden than needed.