Why worship deities?

[Henri77]

What benefit accrues from worshipping a statue in a temple?

Yes , many-most seek the blessing, gifts a deity may bestow.

But many truly saintly Hindus offer prayers to divinities out of pure devotion.
What do you feel this creates within them.... by offering garlands and gifts to statues of deities? Or rather the spirit they represent?

I understand some Indian saints have done this to consecrate a temple, so it attains an energy for others to benefit from later on.
Is there yet more reason for devotion? Or is devotion of this sort beyond explanation, and something some just are urged to do.

I was raised Catholic very long ago, and I guess we do-did something rather similar. And statues were simply a way to visualize ones focus of love or prayer.

Yet for us it was more semi-passive tradition than passion....
and perhaps a certain magic is born from this kind of devotion.

The devotion levitating saints must have experienced.

[Henri77]

I guess this is a tradition for many religions . now that I think of it.
I've never had an alter, statue or image that I prayed to ,or used for meditation.
Not even in childhood. I prayed , but never using an image, crucifix or statue as a focus.
Even in church, I never looked at anything during prayer.

There's still something to be learned here.

It seems perhaps the devotion expressed to Deities. their statues, may imbue them with a spiritual essence they otherwise would not have... and more easily allow those divinities to manifest blessings when pilgrims pray to them.

[SpiritualBee]

Before I offer an answer I would like to explain that Hinduism too is based on the principle ONE God who is infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent and eternal. The many personal Gods that we see as idols in various temples represent specific aspects or attributes of this One Infinite God.

They are presented as many individual Gods so that people can meditate and focus on certain specific attributes of the One Infinite God. For the mind to concentrate on the formless infinite is difficult, a picture helps bridge the gap.

For example the Hindu elephant God Ganesha is a symbol of Knowledge. Alongside Him are the idols of Goddess Lakshmi (symbolizing wealth) and Saraswati (symbolizing wisdom).

The idea being that on the path of attaining knowledge if we were to accumulate any wealth, we will also need wisdom to utilize it properly for the well being of all (and not squander it all on our own selfish desires).

A form or an idol of God, along with mythological stories built around them is necessary for most people to make tangible those ideas that are difficult to grasp.

This has been the way the intensely intellectual philosophy of the Vedas has has been democratized and explained to the common man for thousands of years through the various Gods and Goddesses in India.

It is like trying to explain difficult scientific concepts like the curvature of space-time, to an ordinary man on the street. You will try to use as many analogies as possible to bring out the key concepts.

[Henri77]

Thanx for your reply.
I finally got it after a bit of thinking.
That yes, deities are simply aspects of divinity.....or gods if one prefers.

Hinduism has many faces. Is far older,deeper metaphysically, than say christianity.
Some consider it monotheistic, or polytheistic


Lovely explanation about "myths" That's quite helpful to grasp the connection.

This has been the way the intensely intellectual philosophy of the Vedas has has been democratized and explained to the common man for thousands of years through the various Gods and Goddesses in India.

It is like trying to explain difficult scientific concepts like the curvature of space-time, to an ordinary man on the street.

[Henri77]

Recall reading a story about Shri Ma, vowing to do 1,000 puja rituals at her temple....before she would leave the grounds

I assume by this she was helping to consecrate the temple, imbuing it with sacred "energy" for all those who were to visit it.

This was the other part of my query.. why priests, saints do this?
Not for themselves but to benefit others to come, who would visit a temple.
No doubt there are other purposes, but that's my take.

[peteyzen]

I love this question Henri, and would add my own answer which spiritual bee has touched on above. Because the belief in hinduism is that god is omni present, that is, we are in god and everything around us is god. When an image or aspect of the divine is created here by us ( a temple built, a statue made or picture painted, or even a photo taken of an avatar for instance) we now have a focal point for divine energy to manifest, because the divine invests that object with energy. Hence when someone prays with devotion before an image of krishna, they are praying directly to krishna, not just an image.
Because we are in god, we are never ever separate from god, yet we spend most of our lives unaware of this. When we take the time to connect with the source through these (for want of a better word) portals, and immerse ourselves in devotion, we merge with our true nature. This can be done without focal points, by simply praying to god without an object, many find it easier though with a visible focal point, and they can often sense the energy imbued in these objects as well.

As to your more recent question about why saints perform pujas for others, It is done out of compassion, but also when you look at karma, what you put out returns, so when we do good things, these come back to us, so perhaps they are just selfish after all LOL

[SpiritualBee]

Hi Henri77,
Glad you found my reply useful :-) Peteyzen makes an excellent point about consecrating the idol. The process that Peteyzen describes is called Prana Prathistha. The word Prana means life and Prathistha means to install. So the process means to infuse the Divine life into the idol.

(See this article for a good description: http://jainsquare.com/2011/11/09/pran-prathishta/)

This is the same as breathing consciousness into matter, or life into a dead man. And so divine energies are breathed into the idol. This is done by adept Gurus and Yogis only. And so a statue of stone, is no longer a mere rock, but a living representation of God on earth.

You will notice all Indian temples have elaborate rituals of taking care of the idols (bathing, clothing, and even "feeding" and resting hours) mainly because the statue is now imbued with divine life and treated like a living person.

Note that this process is not merely symbolic, but many temples of India are imbued with actual divine presence as confirmed by spiritual masters throughout the ages including: Swami Vivekananda, Shriram Sharma and Ramakrishna Parmahamsa who worshiped at the famous Kali Temple of Dakshineshwar etc.

Another point is that whether one does a prana prathishta or not, divine presence can be felt in any place of worship (churches, mosques etc), that people flock to with great devotion. It is their devotion that acts as a concentrating element to draw these energies.

On the flip side, Shriram Sharma, a great guru, once wrote about many temples in India which had turned into commercial establishments and lost their pious purpose, and as a result, the installed divine energies had left the temple idols.

Hope this helps!

[peteyzen]

Thank you SpiritualBee for putting into clear and simple to understand words exactly what I was trying but struggling to say.

[Henri77]

When an image or aspect of the divine is created here by us ( a temple built, a statue made or picture painted, or even a photo taken of an avatar for instance) we now have a focal point for divine energy to manifest,

I had this occur 3x.
Was visiting a customer in my prior day job, chatting in their kitchen.
And I whipped around, as a photo of Meher Baba on the fridge door was manifesting his presence. They seemed unaware of it however and continued talking.

Later a lapel button with his image on my car visor manifested his presence & he winked playfully.

Another day at picnic lunch with my spiritualist church group, I was wearing that lapel button, and he again manifested, catching the attention of a young man across from me, who followed Sai Baba

[Henri77]

Thanx,
I pretty much intuited this was the result, that symbols get infused with divine energy through specific practices done by "qualified" gurus,saints, like Shri Ma.

I wasn't criticizing the practice of "worshipping" statues in these situations ,but wondering what the benefit-result was... both for the devotee and the statue-temple ...... but I evidently intuited what you explained beautifully.

Yes I've read stories from those who've visited such places.

And yes, Christian churches can manifest spiritual energy from the devotion. I recall visiting Chartres cathedral once, and it was quite an experience.

I visited a Sikh and Hindu temple in India and the divine presence was evident, despite the number of people there at the time.





Hi Henri77,
Glad you found my reply useful :-) Peteyzen makes an excellent point about consecrating the idol. The process that Peteyzen describes is called Prana Prathistha. The word Prana means life and Prathistha means to install. So the process means to infuse the Divine life into the idol.


Note that this process is not merely symbolic, but many temples of India are imbued with actual divine presence as confirmed by spiritual masters throughout the ages including: Swami Vivekananda, Shriram Sharma and Ramakrishna Parmahamsa who worshiped at the famous Kali Temple of Dakshineshwar etc.


Hope this helps!

[SpiritualBee]

Thanx,
I pretty much intuited this was the result, that symbols get infused with divine energy through specific practices done by "qualified" gurus,saints, like Shri Ma.

I wasn't criticizing the practice of "worshipping" statues in these situations ,but wondering what the benefit-result was... both for the devotee and the statue-temple ...... but I evidently intuited what you explained beautifully.



Hi Henri77,
You and peteyzen are totally right about symbols getting infused with divine energy, even a picture of your guru can be so infused. Shri Ma was a great guru and saint of India, so I am sure she performed many special worships. Also no worries, I did not take your questions as criticism at all! I am really glad you asked and gave me an opportunity to answer. India is such a complex and ancient civilization and there is so much in it that even those of us who grew up in India do not know why certain things happen the way they do. :smile:
May God ever be with you and peteyzen.

[psychoslice]

Why worship anything, that's for the ignorant,

[Internal Queries]

Why worship anything, that's for the ignorant,

well, because "worship" is an expression of devotion, for the spiritual Love and awe that some people feel.

and then there are people who worship their own opinions and consider themselves "enlightened"..

[Henri77]

I must admit ,the business of dressing and offering food to "statues" has confused me... thanx for offering an explanation.
The western logical mind is quick to dismiss things that other cultures have grown to love-respect.

yet offering "gifts" , offerings to deity is common in many cultures.. if not all...

American indians have a deep respect-love for nature-spirit and also humbly express it with their own ceremonial offerings.

[psychoslice]

well, because "worship" is an expression of devotion, for the spiritual Love and awe that some people feel.

and then there are people who worship their own opinions and consider themselves "enlightened"..
You shouldn't talk of yourself like that lol.

[BlueSky]

What benefit accrues from worshipping a statue in a temple?

Yes , many-most seek the blessing, gifts a deity may bestow.

But many truly saintly Hindus offer prayers to divinities out of pure devotion.
What do you feel this creates within them.... by offering garlands and gifts to statues of deities? Or rather the spirit they represent?

I understand some Indian saints have done this to consecrate a temple, so it attains an energy for others to benefit from later on.
Is there yet more reason for devotion? Or is devotion of this sort beyond explanation, and something some just are urged to do.

I was raised Catholic very long ago, and I guess we do-did something rather similar. And statues were simply a way to visualize ones focus of love or prayer.


Yet for us it was more semi-passive tradition than passion....
and perhaps a certain magic is born from this kind of devotion.

The devotion levitating saints must have experienced.


No dieties means noone is watching over your children and your loved ones. This realization, for me, was hard to swallow. So much so that for a time i chose to make believe like I still believed in them to avoid the pain of the truth of it. I understand very well why people worship dieties.

[psychoslice]

God is not a person at all. You cannot worship God. You can live in a godly way but you cannot worship God -- there is nobody to worship. All your worship is sheer stupidity, all your images of God are your own creation. There is no God as such, but there is godliness, certainly -- in the flowers, in the birds, in the stars, in the eyes of the people, when a song arises in the heart and poetry surrounds you... all this is God. Let us say "godliness" rather than using the word 'God' -- that word gives you the idea of a person, and God is not a person but a presence.

[Henri77]

You shouldn't talk of yourself like that lol.

This thread is about expressing love, respect, humility. Through ones chosen beliefs.

And you offer cynicism .once again.... painting a rather unflattering portrait of yourself, seeking attention by disrespecting what others value.

Childish ,immature, argumentative behavior unsuited to SF and this topic.
Start your own thread if you disagree with those who contribute. Now THAT would be positive.

I start these threads to encourage positive sharing, bring in a bit of light and hope you can respect that need-value.

[psychoslice]

This thread is about expressing love, respect, humility. Through ones chosen beliefs.

And you offer cynicism .once again.... painting a rather unflattering portrait of yourself, seeking attention by disrespecting what others value.

Childish ,immature, argumentative behavior unsuited to SF and this topic.
Start your own thread if you disagree with those who contribute. Now THAT would be positive.

I start these threads to encourage positive sharing, bring in a bit of light and hope you can respect that need-value.
Don't be childish, where's your sense of humor, I have shared positive information, but there was a smart remake made and i dealt with it, its non of your business, its between Internal Queries and I.
, now give me a smile lol.

[Henri77]

I expect most people have never witnessed this presence-"energy" , in our western culture, and find this difficult to accept.

I never did, till those experiences with Maher Baba ..and he manifested his presence unbidden.

Ancient cultures possess spiritual understanding we've long forgotten, but much is being again revealed.

It's easy to dismiss things we've never experienced, yet SF allows us all to broaden our understanding and consider possibilities we've never suspected.


I've read a fair bit about saints of India , and some about indigenous cultures around the world... and would love to find similar stories about American Indian holymen...


Hi Henri77,
You and peteyzen are totally right about symbols getting infused with divine energy, even a picture of your guru can be so infused. Shri Ma was a great guru and saint of India, so I am sure she performed many special worships. Also no worries, I did not take your questions as criticism at all! I am really glad you asked and gave me an opportunity to answer. India is such a complex and ancient civilization and there is so much in it that even those of us who grew up in India do not know why certain things happen the way they do. :smile:
May God ever be with you and peteyzen.

[SpiritualBee]

God is not a person at all. You cannot worship God. You can live in a godly way but you cannot worship God -- there is nobody to worship. All your worship is sheer stupidity, all your images of God are your own creation. There is no God as such, but there is godliness, certainly -- in the flowers, in the birds, in the stars, in the eyes of the people, when a song arises in the heart and poetry surrounds you... all this is God. Let us say "godliness" rather than using the word 'God' -- that word gives you the idea of a person, and God is not a person but a presence.

Hi psychoslice,
You are absolutely right that God is not a person, but He is a conscious Being - a vast and Infinite ocean of consciousness of which we all are a part. If God is conscious that mean He is "Aware" of all His creation, just as you and I are aware of the world we live in. He feels all our sorrows and joys just as if they were His.

We each develop our own relationship with Him, in our own ways, some people through worship of images, some like yourself through appreciation of the beautiful world (God's creativity) and through manifesting His qualities of goodness in your own self, some through meditating on Him etc.

All these are but different methods of arriving at the same truth. So I feel that we should keep our minds open and while we may not agree with other peoples methods/paths, we must accept that those methods and paths are good for them. They may not be good for us, but they are good for them.

The greatest gurus of India all worshipped idols - because these idols were symbolic representations of God Himself. Ramakrishna Paramhmasa was a great worshipper of Kali - a symbolic representation of the destructive forces of God. (God is the Creator and the Destroyer of the Universe)

We are all Gods children and however crude or great our choosen paths are to each of us, they all take us back to Him, and Him alone.
May God shower you will all His blessings

[Henri77]

One of the beauties of Hinduism is it's broad scope. While maddeningly complex it is not exclusionary as compared to many religions.

You demonstrated that quality beautifully.

[psychoslice]

Hi psychoslice,
You are absolutely right that God is not a person, but He is a conscious Being - a vast and Infinite ocean of consciousness of which we all are a part. If God is conscious that mean He is "Aware" of all His creation, just as you and I are aware of the world we live in. He feels all our sorrows and joys just as if they were His.

We each develop our own relationship with Him, in our own ways, some people through worship of images, some like yourself through appreciation of the beautiful world (God's creativity) and through manifesting His qualities of goodness in your own self, some through meditating on Him etc.

All these are but different methods of arriving at the same truth. So I feel that we should keep our minds open and while we may not agree with other peoples methods/paths, we must accept that those methods and paths are good for them. They may not be good for us, but they are good for them.

The greatest gurus of India all worshipped idols - because these idols were symbolic representations of God Himself. Ramakrishna Paramhmasa was a great worshipper of Kali - a symbolic representation of the destructive forces of God. (God is the Creator and the Destroyer of the Universe)

We are all Gods children and however crude or great our choosen paths are to each of us, they all take us back to Him, and Him alone.
May God shower you will all His blessings
Yes I agree on that level, but the truth is we are already there, we cannot be anywhere else, and this is all I am really saying.

[SpiritualBee]

No dieties means noone is watching over your children and your loved ones. This realization, for me, was hard to swallow. So much so that for a time i chose to make believe like I still believed in them to avoid the pain of the truth of it. I understand very well why people worship dieties.

Hi WhiteShaman,
Actually the deities all exist. Strange isn't it? Even I found it hard to believe at first. But here is how I understood it, so bear with me :smile:

The idol is a symbol for a particular aspect or “portion" of the infinite formless spirit (God) that works in the Universe. The spirit behind is real, the idol is just giving this formless spirit an image for our own minds to grasp its importance.

For example take the Goddess Kali - "She" is the destructive energy of God, or we can say a "subset or portion or wave" of the infinite spirit of God that is responsible for the dissolution of the Universe.

So when you pray before the image of Kali, you are in actuality praying to a specific "portion" of God that contains his destructive powers. A "portion" of God is also God - one that is conscious, alive and can hear my and your prayers.

Thus when you pray before a deity, you are in reality offering your prayers to Him. So there is someone/something listening to your prayers and looking after each and everyone of us.

PS: To be clear God is neither male or female, He has no Sex, because He is the infinite ocean of consciousness, but God’s destructive powers (Kali) are referred to as “She” in Hinduism.

According to Advaita Vedanta, you, me (by this I mean our souls) the various Gods, Goddesses and Prophets of the world are all portions of the same infinite God. We are like waves in the infinite ocean of consciousness, called God. Some waves are bigger and carry more power than others, but ALL are a part of Him alone. We may choose to pray to these bigger waves and call them Jesus, Krishna, Moses or Kali etc. but they ALL contain the same waters and powers as God Himself.

[SpiritualBee]

One of the beauties of Hinduism is it's broad scope. While maddeningly complex it is not exclusionary as compared to many religions.

You demonstrated that quality beautifully.

Thanks. Yes I agree, hinduism and its Vedanata Philosophy are very inclusive of all points of view.
Love Your signature, I so wish John Lennon's words would come true.

[Unity]

you can just visualize + pray to use laws of attraction.
no need of dieties.

[psychoslice]

you can just visualize + pray to use laws of attraction.
no need of dieties.
Yes I agree, the mind needs something tangible, when one is Self Realized, the idol worshiping mind is no longer needed, but until then one will continue to worship.

[Internal Queries]

Don't be childish, where's your sense of humor, I have shared positive information, but there was a smart remake made and i dealt with it, its non of your business, its between Internal Queries and I.
, now give me a smile lol.


lol well, this is an open forum so "childish" folks can take note of and comment on what is going on between you and me.

the thing is, slice ... i don't worship a deity or deities but i can understand the desire to externalize the emotion one feels once one has touched and been touched by divinity. there are concepts that cause me to snort with derision but sincere expressions of awe and devotion isn't among of them.

[Internal Queries]

Yes I agree, the mind needs something tangible, when one is Self Realized, the idol worshiping mind is no longer needed, but until then one will continue to worship.


Truth is Beauty, Beauty is Truth.

sometimes Beauty is all that is needed to cause one to sink to one's knees.

[psychoslice]

lol well, this is an open forum so "childish" folks can take note of and comment on what is going on between you and me.

the thing is, slice ... i don't worship a deity or deities but i can understand the desire to externalize the emotion one feels once one has touched and been touched by divinity. there are concepts that cause me to snort with derision but sincere expressions of awe and devotion isn't among of them.
Yes on that level you are right, but on the level that I have described is true also, so its really whatever level you want, that is where you will be.

[Internal Queries]

Yes on that level you are right, but on the level that I have described is true also, so its really whatever level you want, that is where you will be.


"levels" denote "lower to higher". i'm not so sure that "it's" about spiritual gradations. and who would be the judge of such gradations even if "levels" exist? you? lol

[psychoslice]

"levels" denote "lower to higher". i'm not so sure that "it's" about spiritual gradations. and who would be the judge of such gradations even if "levels" exist? you? lol
There you words, if one is worshiping an object, or idol, surely the one who has become what the object or idol points to, to a higher level of Consciousness, is also at a better level.

[Moon on Water]

Lovely thread. Today we need images on which to focus during our prayers. It wasn't always like this as people more more spiritually evolved..

[Internal Queries]

There you words, if one is worshiping an object, or idol, surely the one who has become what the object or idol points to, to a higher level of Consciousness, is also at a better level.




an idol or object merely symbolizes that which a devotee feel worshipful toward.

besides, some of humanities most excellent art is spiritually based. if you can't appreciate that beauty, the externalized expression of the human soul then... meh! nevermind. if you don't feel it then you can't know it so i'll just allow that you believe yourself to be on a "higher level" of consciousness than those who express their spirituality differently than you do.

yay for you! congrats!

[Internal Queries]

Lovely thread. Today we need images on which to focus during our prayers. It wasn't always like this as people more more spiritually evolved..


um ... at which point in human history did humans not express their spiritual aspirations via imagery? carved stone images depicting female fertility appeared in the Upper Paleolithic period, 25,000 to 37, 000 years ago.

[Henri77]

an idol or object merely symbolizes that which a devotee feel worshipful toward.

besides, some of humanities most excellent art is spiritually based. if you can't appreciate that beauty, the externalized expression of the human soul then... meh! nevermind. if you don't feel it then you can't know it so i'll just allow that you believe yourself to be on a "higher level" of consciousness than those who express their spirituality differently than you do.

yay for you! congrats!

Excellent point.... about inspirational art..... I'd overlooked that.
Any art museum will demonstrate that. Ours has a huge section devoted to
devotional Eastern art with dozens of Buddha figures and Indian deities as well as Christian renaissance imagery.

Some people apparently feel crushing others beliefs is an honorable path.

I feel they would be happiest if SF turned into a battlefield of warring factions
Rather than people who respected others right to celebrate their commonality in peace.

This is like entering a classroom or place of worship with the sole intent to disrupt or
desecrate that which they cannot agree with-understand.

It's truly sad this ignorance is tolerated here... tyranny takes many subtle forms.

[psychoslice]

an idol or object merely symbolizes that which a devotee feel worshipful toward.

besides, some of humanities most excellent art is spiritually based. if you can't appreciate that beauty, the externalized expression of the human soul then... meh! nevermind. if you don't feel it then you can't know it so i'll just allow that you believe yourself to be on a "higher level" of consciousness than those who express their spirituality differently than you do.

yay for you! congrats!
Of course I see the beauty in the idols they worship my place where I live have statues all over the place, but there must come the time when we realize that these idols are illusions to what really IS, you seem to be stuck on that level, you just don't want to change, I am not arguing over what is better, I am just pointing out the truth of the matter, and that is all.

[psychoslice]

Excellent point.... about inspirational art..... I'd overlooked that.
Any art museum will demonstrate that. Ours has a huge section devoted to
devotional Eastern art with dozens of Buddha figures and Indian deities as well as Christian renaissance imagery.

Some people apparently feel crushing others beliefs is an honorable path.

I feel they would be happiest if SF turned into a battlefield of warring factions
Rather than people who respected others right to celebrate their commonality in peace.

This is like entering a classroom or place of worship with the sole intent to disrupt or
desecrate that which they cannot agree with-understand.

It's truly sad this ignorance is tolerated here... tyranny takes many subtle forms.

I don't think its crushing peoples beliefs, its pointing out what IS, if one wants to stay on the level of worshiping an idol then stay there, but I am letting those who wish to move on from there that there is something much greater, and that is your true SELF, not a mere idol.

[Henri77]

Lovely thread. Today we need images on which to focus during our prayers. It wasn't always like this as people more more spiritually evolved..

Well they trusted their heart rather than than looking to science for truth.
Pretty much what the tale of Adam & Eve represented.
Wisdom of the heart being abandoned for the intellect. Ego vs the heart.

[Henri77]

I don't think its crushing peoples beliefs, its pointing out what IS, .
What is, from your POV... egocentricity personified.
You care nothing about others wants, in fact. Only that they agree with you.



You can do this far more effectively by starting your own thread rather than
disrupting what I'm attempting, by repeatedly challenging peoples beliefs for your,
not their benefit This derails the purpose - and especially tone of this discussion.

SF has forums for varied religions for this purpose .... to afford everyone a safe place to meet-discuss without stepping on others toes or having to defend what they choose to do-believe.

You apparently simply cannot understand some people don't welcome intrusion, counterproductive debate, when they're celebrating their communality and seeking their common experience.

This would be unacceptable and very disrespectful in a classroom or religious gathering ..... debate has it's place, but that's not my intent in starting this thread.
Most all members seem to recognize this courtesy by respecting the tone-intent of a discussion.

Positive contributions are welcome from anyone....

[Henri77]

Well I hope some have benefited from the topic .....

I'd hoped-hope we can learn from one another regarding varied forms of worship, devotion, sacred ceremony.

Whatever our heart, imagination does, to reach for the divine.

Things humans have done for eons, and likely benefited from, in ways we don't comprehend.

It's the beauty-mystery of the human soul we're exploring , in part, and much will forever remain mystery to the rational mind.

[psychoslice]

What is, from your POV... egocentricity personified.
You care nothing about others wants, in fact. Only that they agree with you.



You can do this far more effectively by starting your own thread rather than
disrupting what I'm attempting, by repeatedly challenging peoples beliefs for your,
not their benefit This derails the purpose - and especially tone of this discussion.

SF has forums for varied religions for this purpose .... to afford everyone a safe place to meet-discuss without stepping on others toes or having to defend what they choose to do-believe.

You apparently simply cannot understand some people don't welcome intrusion, counterproductive debate, when they're celebrating their communality and seeking their common experience.

This would be unacceptable and very disrespectful in a classroom or religious gathering ..... debate has it's place, but that's not my intent in starting this thread.
Most all members seem to recognize this courtesy by respecting the tone-intent of a discussion.

Positive contributions are welcome from anyone....



You just listen, I have all the right in the world to be and say what I want, I have shared my on views on this subject, I never said that there is anything wrong with idol worship, I am only pointing to what is beyond this worship, if you don't agree then say why, be mature about it all, this is what a discussion is all about, its not just agreeing with each other, its digging for truth from both sides, I agree with your side and all I am doing is sharing my side, I do think you owe me an appology for carrying on the way you have been.

[Internal Queries]

Of course I see the beauty in the idols they worship my place where I live have statues all over the place, but there must come the time when we realize that these idols are illusions to what really IS, you seem to be stuck on that level, you just don't want to change, I am not arguing over what is better, I am just pointing out the truth of the matter, and that is all.


lol i don't want to change what? exactly? the devotional practices of other people? well, you're right about that. i'm of the opinion that folks should discover their version of Godhead in the Way that most pleases their own souls. and see? it could be that you are the one looking only at illusion since it's you who isn't seeing beyond the idol to what is truly being worshipped by the sincere devotee.


and FYI, i'm not stuck on any "level". i'm not even sure i believe that gradiated "levels" of spirituality exist, except in the ego driven conceptualizations of those who would use "grades" and "levels" as a means to place themselves on a "level" higher than someone else.

PS. all you can point out is your truth, which doesn't necessarily apply to anyone but you.

[Henri77]

"Why worship anything, that's for the ignorant,"

This was your opening contribution to the thread. Not exactly respectful to those discussing this by insulting & referring to them as ignorant.

You refuse to respect the thread tone & values of those who've contributed as well as my intent by starting the topic.

I apologize to all who've had to witness this silliness.

Of all the threads I've started you're the only one at SF who consistently does this. It's time to simply ignore you as I really don't want to argue.



You just listen, I have all the right in the world to be and say what I want, Ime an appology for carrying on the way you have been.

[Henri77]

If anyone has something relevant to share - discuss, I sincerely welcome your contribution.

The topic ,as I recall , was regarding deities of any sort and sacred imagery, and how such things benefit our meditation, devotion and connection to divine realms.

I start such threads to encourage sharing things we all value, and again apologize for the interruption.
I feel positive contributors are guests and deserve being treated with respect for their beliefs.

[Henri77]

Hi Henri77,
Glad you found my reply useful :-)

This is the same as breathing consciousness into matter, or life into a dead man. And so divine energies are breathed into the idol. This is done by adept Gurus and Yogis only. And so a statue of stone, is no longer a mere rock, but a living representation of God on earth.


Bee,
This is rarely, if ever, discussed in these forums, and I appreciate the information, contribution.

BTW I've visited your marvellous site and love the inspiring quotes on varied topics.
They're quite wonderful.

[SpiritualBee]

Bee,
This is rarely, if ever, discussed in these forums, and I appreciate the information, contribution.

BTW I've visited your marvellous site and love the inspiring quotes on varied topics.
They're quite wonderful.


Thanks! :smile: I appreciate your kind words very much!

[Henri77]

Thanks! :smile: I appreciate your kind words very much!

I should log off soon as it's almost 11pm...I see its around breakfast time for you. (sunday)

really It's a lovely site and I enjoyed scanning through many of the inspiring quotes :love1:

[psychoslice]

If anyone has something relevant to share - discuss, I sincerely welcome your contribution.

The topic ,as I recall , was regarding deities of any sort and sacred imagery, and how such things benefit our meditation, devotion and connection to divine realms.

I start such threads to encourage sharing things we all value, and again apologize for the interruption.
I feel positive contributors are guests and deserve being treated with respect for their beliefs.
It seems that anything that you don't want to hear is an interruption, and at the same time you just don't want hear what is said, grow up and listen more, you may learn something.

[psychoslice]

"Why worship anything, that's for the ignorant,"

This was your opening contribution to the thread. Not exactly respectful to those discussing this by insulting & referring to them as ignorant.

You refuse to respect the thread tone & values of those who've contributed as well as my intent by starting the topic.

I apologize to all who've had to witness this silliness.

Of all the threads I've started you're the only one at SF who consistently does this. It's time to simply ignore you as I really don't want to argue.

Are you frighten of me ????

[SpiritualBee]

I should log off soon as it's almost 11pm...I see its around breakfast time for you. (sunday)

really It's a lovely site and I enjoyed scanning through many of the inspiring quotes :love1:


Yeah! I am halfway across the globe from you! Thanks again for the compliments on my site, I did put a lot of effort into collecting the quotes :smile:
Glad you found them useful!
Take care!

[Henri77]

You have NO need to respond to anyone why you act-believe as you do.
That's the beauty of SF in that it supports most everyone's perspective.

And I feel it's truly sad that anyone feels the need to challenge-change others beliefs while they themselves remain confused-imperfect. It's merely a reflection of their insecurity to attack others beliefs.

Will we ever learn to live and let live , I wonder?
]
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace.. John Lennon (are these nothing but words?) or will we continue to battle over personal beliefs?


lol i don't want to change what? exactly? the devotional practices of other people? well, you're right about that. i'm of the opinion that folks should discover their version of Godhead in the Way that most pleases their own souls. and see? it could be that you are the one looking only at illusion since it's you who isn't seeing beyond the idol to what is truly being worshipped by the sincere devotee.


i'm not even sure i believe that gradiated "levels" of spirituality exist, except in the ego driven conceptualizations of those who would use "grades" and "levels" as a means to place themselves on a "level" higher than someone else.

PS. all you can point out is your truth, which doesn't necessarily apply to anyone but you.

[peteyzen]

I have experienced both idols that were powerfully spiritually charged and also pictures that were imbued with divine energy. In one house I visited, we saw vhibutti (a holy ash) appear on pictures. I have no doubt that the divine or universe or god or whatever folks want to call it manifests at times and when it does it is a wonderful thing to experience. I am equally sure that those who don`t believe in idols also experience things through other ways, god (or whatever you want to call it) wants to catch our eye, and grow us in the way we are most receptive to.

[psychoslice]

You have NO need to respond to anyone why you act-believe as you do.
That's the beauty of SF in that it supports most everyone's perspective.

And I feel it's truly sad that anyone feels the need to challenge-change others beliefs while they themselves remain confused-imperfect. It's merely a reflection of their insecurity to attack others beliefs.

Will we ever learn to live and let live , I wonder?
]
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace.. John Lennon (are these nothing but words?) or will we continue to battle over personal beliefs?

Yes and I wonder also.

[Henri77]

I am equally sure that those who don`t believe in idols also experience things through other ways, god (or whatever you want to call it) wants to catch our eye, and grow us in the way we are most receptive to.

That's why sharing personal experiences can be so beneficial.
The reason i start some threads like this....

To encourage sharing the magic.

"Fairy tales" may be conceived as fiction, but very often reveal to imagination, a hidden-subtle reality behind the myth.
One that's been forgotten-overlooked in the materialistic scientific age.

[Henri77]

When I visited India, many years ago, it was much like visiting another planet.

As someone said.
"In india, things that should work frequently don't and things that can't happen often do."

[peteyzen]

Ok Henri, in the interests of sharing the magic, here is something I wrote down after it happened to me around 14 years ago, it is taken from a letter I sent to a friend.


My friend David rang me one night and said `What are you doing tomorrow night`? I said `Nothing`. He proceeded to tell me about a local family who have Sai Baba `with them` all the time, he’s the Indian guy with hair like a 70`s Michael Jackson look alike who dresses in orange robes all the time. He isn’t there in the flesh you understand but his spirit is. The focus of the attention he said is around a little girl in the family who Baba is supposed to act through. The whole thing sounded too bizarre to miss but at the same time I didn’t like the undertones of what, if it was true, sounded a little bit too much like possession of some sort.

All of the next day I was sort of excited and repulsed (if that’s the right word) any way Jim, David, an Indian girl called Joshna and myself went over to a house in Evington at about 6 o`clock in the evening.


We were met at the door by the mother of the house. A huge smiling woman who ushered us in over the threshold, once inside the 3 up 3 down semi we took off our shoes. It was then that I was hit by the atmosphere. I can’t describe how it felt, I can’t do it justice, but I’ll try. (ha) The place radiated peace and warmth and within seconds we were all smiling and laughing, stupidly and at anything. (It took me back to those cannabis parties in the late eighties, where I would wander about with a handlebar smile etched into my face all evening). Inside however, I was still sort of mixed up one minute being won over by the ambiance and the next on the defensive, wary, not wanting to be taken in by anything. I had huge sensations around my head, distinct and definite, not in any way uncomfortable but strange and unusual, and oddly…nice.
The girl wasn’t there but would be back in a few minutes, we were told. So the woman took us into the front room and there was vhibutti everywhere. (I don’t know if I’ve told you about vhibutti but it’s supposed to be a holy ash that Sai Baba materialises from his hands as he walks among his devotees, (yeah I know, take it with a pinch of salt.) Anyway it was everywhere growing out of walls, on chairs, on pictures and it was in all different colours. There was your common or garden grey, your ochre red, a yellow and orange as well as a natty metallic green. There were footsteps made from vhibutti leading to a small shrine that the family had made in an under stairs cupboard.

The woman told us how last diwali the family had gone to the temple and as they left, Baba had just come home with them. She told us how they are having miracles occur every few minutes, new vhibutti appearing daily, Baba blessing devotees trinkets that they place in the shrine under the stairs. Through their Daughter he answers letters, he produces an oil, which apparently heals people, the list went on and on, and then, with us virtually salivating, the little girl came home.

The girl was brilliantly normal. 11 years old, nice but with a bit of the “oh just leave me alone mum” pre teen attitude that it’s healthy to see amongst the divinely possessed. Anyway, now the mother asked us if we had anything that required a blessing I was unprepared for this David on the other hand got out a huge picture of sai baba and some flowers and a picture of Mother Meera and several other items.
I suppose being a guru, you know what to do in these situations. I, being an ageing hippy, had some beads on that I had got in Germany when we saw Mother Meera. So the mother took all of these things and put them in clear plastic bags and in front of us placed them into the shrine under the stairs the door was always open and in full view of us.
The girl bowed in front of the shrine and blessed the stuff in Baba’s name, while we talked and listened to more stories. No more than 2-3 minutes later the girl said `They’re blessed now `. And we went to look in. Everything was covered with vhibutti mostly in grey ash but my beads had grey and orange ash on them.
Tim, there was no way they could of done it, we were in full view all the time and the shrine is a small understairs cupboard that has shelves inside and goes back about 2 and a half feet. Then the incontrovertible proof came. David’s picture of Meera came out, it had 4 different colours of vhibutti on it but the amazing thing here was that the ash was under the glass, between the actual photo of Meera and the underside of the glass. While we were there we saw other things flowers, trinkets, pictures, all came out covered in vhibutti people had letters answered. The whole thing was mind blowing and in the midst of this hurricane of spiritual activity, at the core, peacefully going about there lives was this lovely, quite normal family, who have had their lives turned upside down for the last 5 months, who open their house up to everyone 6 days a week.

The father told me that he reckoned they have had over 2 thousand people who have been through their house since October and as word spreads the demands on their time grow as more and more people want to visit.
Seriously, it was mind blowing. The whole situation, the way the family took everything in their stride and lived around these daily manifestations and miracles, seemed to me rather similar to the way the family just coped in the film Poltergeist. Yes, the experience put me very much in mind of the poltergeist family, the difference of course was that this was Yin to the poltergeist Yang, in that they were sharing their house with a divine force as opposed to a demonic one. The family had the same blasé attitude to the miracles going on around them as the family in poltergeist did to the horrors that manifested in their home. Do you remember the wonderful scene where the `experts` had arrived at the house to scrutinise it and as they walk up the staircase one of the experts is telling, well, almost boasting about an occasion where over a period of several hours, using a time delay camera they had filmed a child’s toy moving a few feet. The father of the house says `oh really` and opens the door to the bedroom, whereupon the `experts` are greeted with the scene of the whole bedroom in a vortex flying in the air before them, toys appear before them and play themselves. You are left with the feeling that it is similar in this house, that if you described to the members of this family your most impressive spiritual experience, the reality is that it would pale before the tiniest things they experience every single day.


On our way to leave the house, we returned to the bottom of the stairs by the front door. It was here that we had left our shoes when we had entered, they were all covered with vibhutti, Jim, at a later time, said to me, that to him, this meant that as long as we walked a spiritual path, then we would always be blessed. I told him in a matter of fact tone, it meant that as long as we walked a spiritual path we would always have to wear grey shoes.

[Dragonfly1]

Wow! I love this pete.....thanks for sharing.......many blessings to you xxxx

[Henri77]

Yes, a cool story all right...
thanx

[sarinmall]

Dieties(Goddesses) are worshipped by devotees in five approaches or five ways
The FIRST one we have already seen repeatedly in all ancient civilizations which symbolize divinity as mother goddess. Rigveda mentions her as Aditi, meaning Mother of Gods, Mahimata, meaning Mother Earth; and Viraja, meaning Universal Mother.
Rigveda verse 7.8.4 addresses the Goddess Usha (Goddess of Dawn) as “Vayam syama maturna sunavah”.

In the second approach, Goddess is realized as ‘Shakti’, which is cosmic energy- Source of all creation. All creation of this universe - materialistic or abstract is the manifestation of the divine female goddesses.
Vedas, Upanishads, puranas and other ancient texts contains innumerous refrences to goddesses as divine Shakti. Mahabharat decsribes Yudhishthira worshipping Goddess Durga, Arjuna worshipping Yogmaya, Pradyumna worshipping Goddess Katyayani, Aniruddha worshipping Goddess Chandi and so on.
Adi Shakti is the personification of divine feminine creative power commonly referred as 'The Great Divine Mother'. She is regarded as the controller of all planets, Deities, and other heavenly bodies. Scriptures refers adi-Shakti as the originator of all creation of this universe. Scientifically, Energy can neither be created nor be destroyed but changes from one form to another. Adi, meaning Never Ending represent this Para (Beyond) shakti(Energy). I.e. divine energy beyond universe. There is difference between Shakti and Adi Parashakti. Shakti refers to power of diety like Parvati, durga, kali etc but Adi Shakti refers to power of Param Brahman.

In third approach, goddess is identified as Dash-Mahavidyas(Ten Wisdom Goddesses), representing the range of feminine divinity from the most horrifyoing goddess at one end to the most beautiful at the other end just like the lord Krishna vishwa-roop darshan. This third approach is usually followed by Tantrics and the leading goddess of this tantric worship s Goddess maha kali, the dangerous of all goddesses. All these ten goddesses represent different aspect of the same supreme goddess. These ten goddesses are: Kali, Shodashi, Tara, Bhuvaneshwari, Matangi, Bhairavi, Dhumavati, Chhinnamasta, Bagala, and Kamala.



In the fourth approach, Goddess is devotional, yet worshipped as patron of warriors. These goddesses are worshipped by warriors to seek blessings for victory before going to war. These warrior goddesses are expansions of Goddess Durga and are known as Saptamtrikas, meaning Seven Mothers.
These seven goddesses include all the warrior avatars of warriors goddesses including goddess Saraswati and Goddess Lakshmi but in this Matrika cult, Brahma consort ‘Saraswati’ is called as Brahmani, Shiva's consort ‘Parvati’ as Maheshwari and Vishnu's consort ‘Lakshmi’ as Vaishnavi.

Fifth approach is taken from various puranas like the Brahmavaivarta Puraan, Skanda Puraan, Prapancha-saratantra, Devi Bhagwat Puraan, Linga Puraan etc. According to this approach, goddesses are consort of male gods.
Goddess Durga is the core goddess while other goddesses are her expansion representing the Energy (Shakti) of the male gods without which it is impossible for any male god to destroy or kill the demons.
This fifth approach also covers millions of local goddesses worshipped across Indian towns and villages, with each of them worshipped as the manifestation of the supreme goddess Durga. Three principal forms of Goddesses, distributed according to their gunas are Maha-Saraswati., Maha-Lakshmi and MahaKali.

check below link For full details on goddess worship
http://www.mallstuffs.com/Blogs/BlogDetails.aspx?BlogId=180&BlogType=Spiritual

[lovethetruth]

Enlightment.

How?
You keep looking a statue. You have someting in front of your eye to focus at. You keep focusing. You have a name to tell to yourself - the name of the God.
The more you focus onto that single thing, at one point, you will forget "you" are focusing. There will be nothing.

At that state, you might become "enlightened".

That way you will understand God.

--------------------

Is that statue necessary? No. People can reach that state without the statue also.

It is just a helpful tool.

--------------------
I am a Hindu
--------------------


What benefit accrues from worshipping a statue in a temple?

Yes , many-most seek the blessing, gifts a deity may bestow.

But many truly saintly Hindus offer prayers to divinities out of pure devotion.
What do you feel this creates within them.... by offering garlands and gifts to statues of deities? Or rather the spirit they represent?

I understand some Indian saints have done this to consecrate a temple, so it attains an energy for others to benefit from later on.
Is there yet more reason for devotion? Or is devotion of this sort beyond explanation, and something some just are urged to do.

I was raised Catholic very long ago, and I guess we do-did something rather similar. And statues were simply a way to visualize ones focus of love or prayer.

Yet for us it was more semi-passive tradition than passion....
and perhaps a certain magic is born from this kind of devotion.

The devotion levitating saints must have experienced.