Difference between Jew and Gentile?

[TeeHee]

Curious about the distinction between Jew and Gentile, what their central roles are? according to, or supposing that there's a divine plan for each in maintaining their separate identities?

[Animus27]

I'm not an expert, but I reckon I'll answer until someone more knowledgeable like Yamah or RabbiO does :tongue:

The main distinction between Jew & gentile (I think the anglicized Hebrew is goyim?) is that gentiles are only obliged to follow the 7 Noahide laws to be righteous, while Jews are bound to the covenant of Abraham and have to uphold Mosaic Law, and the purpose of the nation of Israel is to act as a beacon to other nations, and to be an example of good behavior and holiness - there's not necessarily anything bad about being a gentile, so long as one doesn't break the Noahide laws, except of course for more radical Jewish groups who view gentiles as being inferior (which are an extremely small minority).

So, shorter answer - gentiles are expected to be and remain gentiles, and Jews to follow their ancestral faith.

[Yamah]

That is exactly right, Animus.

To take things a step further, the seven Noahide Laws are basic, foundational rules for how not to destroy the world - because stealing, killing, idolatry etc. all contribute to the world become a worse place. So gentiles are basically only responsible for not destroying the world. Other than that gentiles are able, if they are willing, to help fix the world - but they are not obligated.

Jews, however, have plenty of commandments to help fix the world - we are obligated to making the world a better place for all humanity. We don't have the option of sitting idle, meditating in an ashram for a month etc. We are obligated through divine decree to improve the physical and spiritual state of existence.

[Animus27]

That is exactly right, Animus.

To take things a step further, the seven Noahide Laws are basic, foundational rules for how not to destroy the world - because stealing, killing, idolatry etc. all contribute to the world become a worse place. So gentiles are basically only responsible for not destroying the world. Other than that gentiles are able, if they are willing, to help fix the world - but they are not obligated.

Jews, however, have plenty of commandments to help fix the world - we are obligated to making the world a better place for all humanity. We don't have the option of sitting idle, meditating in an ashram for a month etc. We are obligated through divine decree to improve the physical and spiritual state of existence.
Huzzah. I retain information! :D

That's really interesting. I've heard of the idea of repairing the world before, but this gives me a new perspective to mull over. Thanks Yamah.

[Occultist]

Jew's are Gods chosen as a Christians you are grafted into the vine adopted but not pure as the seed of Abraham. Jews know laws and doctrine Christians tend to have no teacher the prefer preachers.

[TeeHee]

I'm interested to know if this resembles any Jewish teaching, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Secondly, as I just remembered the train of thought from the time of starting this thread, in the book of Luke there's mentioning of "the times of Gentiles." I understand the difference between Jew and Gentile in the aforementioned, but more or less I am attempting to understand how this plays out in the end times, if there are any Scriptures speaking of prophecy about "the times of the Gentiles?"

Last question, and this may be personal and hit home for some... How do you feel about people referring to the Jewish people as those who have hardened hearts? I have heard this numerous times often from Christians during studies whenever the Jewish people are mentioned in reference to Judaism. This does relate to the original question, and I'm not asking why you or anyone else does not accept Jesus as Lord, but such Scriptures as, Romans, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” relates to this curiosity.

My wife says I should be asking this in a Messianic Judaism forum, but I thought some of the people I have read from for the last year can answer this satisfyingly.

[Yamah]

Teehee: The Jewish approach to spreading good is very different from the Christian method.

The Jewish method follows Isaiah 49:6 which says "...I will...make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth."

How does a light spread its goodness? Not by walking over to people and telling them 'be like me'. Rather, a light works to perfect itself, be the best it can be, and emanates goodness as a result. Isaiah 11:10 "...the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious." When the time comes and the Messiah rules Israel, all the nations will come to us and ask 'how can we also serve God?' This is a lesson for us as well. You cannot push your beliefs on those that are not ready... and those that are ready will seek and find. Jeremiah 29:13 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

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I'm not familiar with any reference to a 'time of the gentiles' in Jewish scripture. It does mention four exiles where different gentile nations will rule for a time (ie. the past 2,000 years)... is that what was being refered to?

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I have never heard it said that the Jewish people have hardened hearts. I'll ask a friend of mine about this - he used to be Christian so he knows more about this stuff. Is that like a reference to how God hardened the heart of Pharoah?

Feel free to ask why I don't accept Yeshu as the Lord. It's not a touchy subject for me because it's not even a question. I am a Jew. As a Jew I have been entrusted with learning a holy book called the Torah. I believe in the Torah because my ancestors personally witnessed God speaking to Moses and telling him to write the book. Torah is thus 100% truth and all other truths must be consistent with the Torah. Yeshu being (1) Messiah and/or (2) God is in no way consistent with the Torah. I made a post in this forum, in fact, outlining how Yeshu is inconsistent with the Torah.

Given this set of facts, even if my heart were to scream out to me 'believe in Yeshu!' (which it hasn't...ever...) I would be obligated to ignore it, since my heart (the most fickle of organs) must in this case be wrong.

[TeeHee]

Teehee: The Jewish approach to spreading good is very different from the Christian method.

The Jewish method follows Isaiah 49:6 which says "...I will...make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth."

How does a light spread its goodness? Not by walking over to people and telling them 'be like me'. Rather, a light works to perfect itself, be the best it can be, and emanates goodness as a result. Isaiah 11:10 "...the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious." When the time comes and the Messiah rules Israel, all the nations will come to us and ask 'how can we also serve God?' This is a lesson for us as well. You cannot push your beliefs on those that are not ready... and those that are ready will seek and find. Jeremiah 29:13 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

--

I'm not familiar with any reference to a 'time of the gentiles' in Jewish scripture. It does mention four exiles where different gentile nations will rule for a time (ie. the past 2,000 years)... is that what was being refered to?

--

I have never heard it said that the Jewish people have hardened hearts. I'll ask a friend of mine about this - he used to be Christian so he knows more about this stuff. Is that like a reference to how God hardened the heart of Pharoah?

Feel free to ask why I don't accept Yeshu as the Lord. It's not a touchy subject for me because it's not even a question. I am a Jew. As a Jew I have been entrusted with learning a holy book called the Torah. I believe in the Torah because my ancestors personally witnessed God speaking to Moses and telling him to write the book. Torah is thus 100% truth and all other truths must be consistent with the Torah. Yeshu being (1) Messiah and/or (2) God is in no way consistent with the Torah. I made a post in this forum, in fact, outlining how Yeshu is inconsistent with the Torah.

Given this set of facts, even if my heart were to scream out to me 'believe in Yeshu!' (which it hasn't...ever...) I would be obligated to ignore it, since my heart (the most fickle of organs) must in this case be wrong.

I enjoyed reading what you shared, and in your previous post in saying there's no time to stand around with our hands in our pockets as if we haven't anything to do. We must busy ourselves with God’s work. We should view every day as a gift and use it to glorify God.

In regards to the hardened heart, I remember now, that this came from a student's mouth. In Luke we are told that the heart is a repository for good and evil and that what comes out of our mouth – good or bad – begins in the heart. But, if the reference was to Pharaoh, the root was pride and arrogance. I have no association, and rarely ever find myself in dialogue with people from Judaism, but another example of a hardened heart is found in Mark when the disciples exhibited an inability to see, understand, hear, and remember, despite the wonders and miracles that recently happened, pretty much same same as happened to Pharaoh, so this leads me to believe that this can happen to faithful followers as well as unbelievers.


Thanks Yamah.

[Yamah]

With regards to miracles, I suggest you look at Deuteronomy 13:1-5:

"13 1.If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign (Ot) or wonder (Mofat), 2.and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3.you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4.It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5.That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you."

Firstly, Miracles are not proof of Divinity. Miracles are proof of Power and Power can come from many sources for many reasons. Why did Pharoah not pay attention to the plagues? Because firstly, his sorcerors were able to reproduce the first few effects (albeit with less potency). And later because he understood that miracles are not proof that one power is greater. This idea was reinforced by the fact that Moses had to ask pharoah's permission for his people to leave - as if stating 'we cannot leave unless you let us', somehow admitting that Pharoah had some power over the situation. It was known to Pharoah that his god, the Ram God, was great and mighty and it wasn't until God killed all the first born children (first borns being sacred to the Ram God) that Pharoah truly realized that our God was greater than his.

But things like walking on water, transmuting water into wine, destroying fig trees... those are minor spells without significance, not to be called Miracles (Nes), instead they would be Wonders (Mofat). There are stories in the Gemara of rabbis performing greater spells than those and we do not worship them as divine.

A miracle, in Judaism, must occur as an act of salvation in order to be called so. If water suddenly turned into blood for no reason it would be called a Wonder. If it assisted in the freeing of the Jewish People it would be called a Miracle. Since Yeshu's tricks did not improve the situation of the Jews they would be called Wonders and would not be apported the status of Miracle.

So to recap:
1) even if someone were to perform a miracle, it would not be proof of divinity
2) all the moreso for minor wonders
3) Yeshu performed minor wonders
4) those wonders cannot be considered proof of divinity.

So what is proof of divinity? Fulfillment of the words of the Torah. Regarding the Messiah the Rambam states the conditions are as follows:
"If there arises a ruler from the House of David, who is immersed in Torah and Mitzvot like David his ancestor, following both the Written and Oral Law, who leads Israel back to the Torah, strengthening its laws and fighting God's battles, then we may assume that he is the Messiah. If he is further successful in rebuilding the Temple on its original site and gathering the dispersed of Israel, then his identity as the Messiah is a certainty."

[psychoslice]

In reality there is no such thing as Jew and Gentile, there is just pure Source, call it God or whatever, don't get caught up in labels.