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prachi
04-04-2006, 12:07 PM
hi
i wish to learn about nonduality... i wish to know everyone's views on it... i'm not able to grasp it much at my present state of being...

DASA
05-04-2006, 08:00 PM
Hello Prachi,

Advaita (non-duality) is the theory that the individual soul and God are 'one and the same'. I personally explored and meditated on this concept for a number of years, but then came across another philosophy which to me is much more profound:

Acintya-bheda-bheda tattva (inconceivable one-ness and difference).

This philosophy promoted in recent years by Caitanya Mahaprabhu (b1486) is based on ancient yoga practice and describes how we are one with God in quality, but that He is much greater in quantity, with the actual specific nature of our one-ness and difference being beyond the range of mere logical/philosophical perception.

The realisation of this truth is said to be achieved by chanting the famous Hare Krishna mantra. Caitanya was the first person to promote the mantra to the general public regardless of caste, creed or qualification...

Best Wishes,

Das
:smile:

dreamer
05-04-2006, 08:32 PM
When you dream at night, who is the dream's creator?
When you dream at night, who are the dream's characters?
If you create the dream, are you not the creator?
If you create the characters, are the characters not just an aspect of yourself?
If you are the dreamer and the dream where does duality end and non duality begin?
What is real? Something but nothing? Source and void?
Life is but a dream...live the dream....think big.

prachi
06-04-2006, 10:43 AM
Hello Dasa,
thanks for the information on non-duality and the other concept.
i read about non-duality and so many other things. yet i guess sometimes it's best to leave things in hands of Creator... God ill send me that knowledge when God wishes...
Thanks for the information on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu...
the day of his appearance is very special to me as i got engaged that day at ISKCON temple here in melbourne... that too it was a surprise from my fiance-Edward...
Thanks for telling me Chaitanya Mahaprabhu promoted Maha Mantra.
Krishna is full of beautiful surprises :-)
i guess it will take me time to understand things... and well there's so muchto know... and in the end there's just one truth as Baba Faqir Chand said " i don't know nothing"
AUM

prachi
06-04-2006, 10:44 AM
Hello Dreamer,
i've been reflecting on what u wrote.. and i guess i'll be reflecting on it for sometime... it's very profound :-)
thanks...

DASA
06-04-2006, 03:57 PM
When you dream at night, who is the dream's creator?
When you dream at night, who are the dream's characters?
If you create the dream, are you not the creator?
If you create the characters, are the characters not just an aspect of yourself?
If you are the dreamer and the dream where does duality end and non duality begin?
What is real? Something but nothing? Source and void?
Life is but a dream...live the dream....think big.

The mirage of seeing water in the desert only exists because real water actually does exist outside the desert.

Gouranga :smile:

dreamer
07-04-2006, 11:39 AM
Yes, the something is nothing without the nothing.

DASA
10-04-2006, 11:15 AM
"Whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality. Know it as My illusory energy, that reflection which appears to be in darkness." (From the Srimad Bhagavatam)

Misconceiving one thing for another thing is called illusion. For example, accepting a rope as a snake is illusion, but the rope is not false. The rope, as it exists in the front of the illusioned person, is not at all false, but the acceptance is illusory. Therefore the wrong conception of accepting this material manifestation as being divorced from the energy of the Lord is illusion, but it is not false. And this illusory conception is called the reflection of the reality in the darkness of ignorance. Anything that appears as apparently not being "produced out of My energy" is called maya. The conception that the living entity is formless or that the Supreme Lord is formless is also illusion.

Christian Hindu
11-04-2006, 06:44 AM
"Whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality. Know it as My illusory energy, that reflection which appears to be in darkness." (From the Srimad Bhagavatam)

Misconceiving one thing for another thing is called illusion. For example, accepting a rope as a snake is illusion, but the rope is not false. The rope, as it exists in the front of the illusioned person, is not at all false, but the acceptance is illusory. Therefore the wrong conception of accepting this material manifestation as being divorced from the energy of the Lord is illusion, but it is not false. And this illusory conception is called the reflection of the reality in the darkness of ignorance. Anything that appears as apparently not being "produced out of My energy" is called maya. The conception that the living entity is formless or that the Supreme Lord is formless is also illusion.

Especially, those that state that God is so 'unknowable' that He is like a blinding light. What they don't realize is that behind that light is the Lord Himself.


drifter

dreamer
11-04-2006, 09:59 AM
I think I was a bit presumptious before, i can see what you mean better now. Thanks.

8-infinite-8
18-07-2006, 11:42 AM
Geetings , I'd have to say the best information i have read on this topic would be from the book "The Power Of Now" by Eckhart Tolle, this book literally changed my life.
This whole book is based apon observing the thinker (ego) and thus doing so, you become the awareness, beyond thought (oneness), with no form, identity, or position to defend, you just are..

Glorymist
22-07-2006, 07:28 PM
8-infinite-8 - -

Is this where people are coming up with this bit ?? That the ego is the thinker of thoughts so if you simply observe the thinker - - then this puts one "beyond thought" or "without form / identy" or "you just are" ??

I've heard of this Tolle dude. Is this where all of this is coming from ?? Or are there others - - besides in these forums - - that promote the same ??

If it is predominately Tolle - - then - - I gotta hand it to him. He has changed the history of mankind - - and has sent countless Soul's on some rather adventurous paths.

I would not want to be even on the same planet when this Tolle dude has to begin paying off that karmic debt ! !

HeH

Glorymist
22-07-2006, 07:50 PM
Hey DASA - -

I was then reading thru some of the older entries in this thread - - and came upon yours - - just a few back up the line a bit.

Let me see if I get this straight - - "Whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality."

Is there much of a difference between that concept - - and the entire solar system revolving around the Earth ??

Isn't that a touch egotistical ??

Um - - it has to revolve around me or it has no value ?? No reality ??

Is this really what you wish to say ??

8-infinite-8
31-07-2006, 08:36 AM
I've heard of this Tolle dude. Is this where all of this is coming from ?? Or are there others - - besides in these forums - - that promote the same ??


Hi glorymist, I think Tolle is the main expert on the subject that i know of, but, most spiritual teachers i have heard also point to the same practice, as it is one of the most important things to learn.
Wayne Dyer is another one. It's pretty much acknowledging that there is thoughts you think, that you don't want to think. So why would an individual think thoughts he doesnt want to think ?
Because there is a part of him, that isn't him.
:smile: pretty funny i recon.:smile:

Glorymist
01-08-2006, 12:46 AM
Interesting.

First - - I would have to ask him - - or you - - as far as your statement - - "Because there is a part of him, that isn't him" - - if it isn't "him" - - then who's thoughts are they ??

Second - - ego is not the thinker of thoughts. Ego is the final judge of the individual thoughts. Ego - - in a car - - would be like the computer that carries out the final actions depending on how we direct the automobile. WE - - still drive the car. Ego judges them as to whether it likes the thoughts, finds them beneficial to what we have taught it to like, etc.

And - - as I have said earlier - - in other posts - - mind can be taught to be silent for a moment or two - - or three or four. Just because one stops mental thought does not vault one beyond the mental worlds - - no more than if the driver allows the car to roll to a stop does that automatically vault the driver out of the car.

If you consider this - - you will then understand why people can promote and practice mental silence - - and still be thoroughly entrenched in the same habitual patterns as they always have been - - thus keeping them right where they have always been - - but adding a self-promoted "lofty" status because they can stop their thoughts for a moment or two - - or three or four.

Which - - without a doubt - - is very nice ! ! Kinda like taking a vacation. R&R. But - - a vacation from which we must return from eventually. And - - that puts us right back into our old behavior patterns.

Most people - - until they spend a couple of dozen lifetimes trying to gain that mental silence - - will still opt for spending the time to do so before they figure out there is "more beyond" this step.

8-infinite-8
01-08-2006, 08:26 AM
If you consider this - - you will then understand why people can promote and practice mental silence - - and still be thoroughly entrenched in the same habitual patterns as they always have been - - thus keeping them right where they have always been - - but adding a self-promoted "lofty" status because they can stop their thoughts for a moment or two - - or three or four.

Yes Glorymist, tis interesting:smile: .
If you can be aware of your thoughts, then wouldn't you be the awareness?,the consciousness, that is conscious of thought ?.
I have found that just by being the awareness, disidentifying from thoughts, you can then choose what you want to think (intention), & throw out anything you don't want to think (ego).
The fact that most people are thoroughly entrenched in the same habitual patterns is because they are stuck into identifying with thoughts they think are theirs, but if they finally become so desperate to be free of suffering, & become the awareness, therefore dis-identifying from there thoughts, they can then find their true identity by observing their false identity.
It doesn't make sense that one individual entity, could not have control over their thoughts, does it ? If we were "one"...how could we not have control over our opinions?. Because we're dualistic: The primative animal mind(because we're in an animal), & the soul,(infinite awareness).
I recon:confused:

peteyzen
01-08-2006, 10:33 AM
Hey DASA - -

I was then reading thru some of the older entries in this thread - - and came upon yours - - just a few back up the line a bit.

Let me see if I get this straight - - "Whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality."

Is there much of a difference between that concept - - and the entire solar system revolving around the Earth ??

Isn't that a touch egotistical ??

Um - - it has to revolve around me or it has no value ?? No reality ??

Is this really what you wish to say ??


Hi glory my dear, just browsing and saw this, thought I might try to clarify as Dasa is even more absent than I at present.
As you know, this is from the gita and it is actually Krishna speaking as God, explaining his nature. That probably doesn`t help at all!!!! Hah! but you never know, not that you need any help glory my friend, not at all.

Glorymist
01-08-2006, 11:47 PM
peteyzen - - the more I read of that whole thing - - the more I was deciding to just drop back out of it all. Sounds like he was just talking about relationships. There is a LOT to be said for relationships - - of anything and everything to Self as a relationship. Even Self's relationship to Life. So - - even dismissing the whole bit about Krishna bspeaking as God - - and NO disrespect here - - I just don't buy that one - - but I can still heavily consider the info as it stands on its own - - and - - it's quite valid.

Tho I doubt if anyone wants to turn this thread into one on relationships.

I'd love to have people get back into duality / nonduality. Many people - - have that one still totally misunderstood ! !

Glorymist
02-08-2006, 12:02 AM
And 8-infinite-8 - - I truly applaud your courage. You took a shot and ended up juggling some great concepts ! !

Yes - - if one can become aware of their thoughts - - then this is the beginning of Soul watching just what It is "driving" as It travels these lower worlds of duality. Soul begins to discover that It truly "drives" the physical body, emotions, and mind as part of the bodies / vehicles It needs to protect Itself from the so-called harsh environment here. I could explain it in other ways - - but this gets the point across.

If one just becomes aware of thier NOT being their thoughts - - which is just another level or step from realizing that they are not their physical body or their emotions - - then they are beginning to get a grasp on it all.

But once again - - ego is NOT - - "thoughts that you don't want to think." Ego - - is preference. Choice. Opinion. That you what something THIS way or you want it to all happen THAT way or THIS is right and THAT is wrong. Ego is preference as based on survival. In this case - - survival of the old beliefs. The mental patterns we have accepted via which to view and understand Life.

When I talked about people remaining entrenched in their old beliefs - - I had mentioned that in direct relation to practicing and maintaining the Silence. How so many people can practice long hours of meditation and getting into the Silence yet when they come back - - they are still entrenched in their old beliefs - - because getting into mental Silence is simply training the mind to shut up for a while and does NOT get one out of the mental awareness / worlds at all. That is why they stay where they are because they remain where they are whether they enjoy a few moments of mental silence or not.

VERY FEW people have control over their thoughts. Maybe for a moment or two - - but overall - - the inner mental chatter is incessant. Which - - is the allure of wanting the mental Silence - - and loving it when it comes - - and feeling the "bliss" of it all when it does. But very few people have control over their thoughts - - and wouldn't know how to go about it if they wanted to. So - - they opt for the silence. Which - - is a major prliminary step for later development.

Good point about being "one" or not. My thoughts are not the thoughts of Saddam Hussain or Adolf Hitler. Their thoughts are not mine. We do not share common opinions.

It involves MUCH more than dualism.

But I truly applaud your courage at getting into this. As you can see - - few did. I can usually count on Peteyzen - - when he's around. He's kewl ! !

peteyzen
02-08-2006, 10:38 AM
peteyzen - - the more I read of that whole thing - - the more I was deciding to just drop back out of it all. Sounds like he was just talking about relationships. There is a LOT to be said for relationships - - of anything and everything to Self as a relationship. Even Self's relationship to Life. So - - even dismissing the whole bit about Krishna bspeaking as God - - and NO disrespect here - - I just don't buy that one - - but I can still heavily consider the info as it stands on its own - - and - - it's quite valid.

Tho I doubt if anyone wants to turn this thread into one on relationships.

I'd love to have people get back into duality / nonduality. Many people - - have that one still totally misunderstood ! !

Hi glory I`m probably not understanding what you mean here, clearly any way., but this statement is definitely krishna speaking as God, in this context. He is outlining the -oneness of everything under him, or more correctly put as him. I am speaking here not as a krishna consciousness devotee, which of course is whjat Dasa is., But I do understand and this of course does relate back to the---duality --non duality debate that you relish.
Krishna is saying in this statement and others that he is everything--non duality.
The problem for us humans is that although we are a part of this non duality, this one thing--everything, we experience it as seperatness.-- In fact to 99.9% of people seperatness is all we are aware of because we still experience everything through the filter/ perception of the human mind and ego. What people -I belive- are referring to when they speak of `one ness` is being able to percieve things at the atman level, where everything is just a part of this one self, this cosmos/universe/ all planes of existence. Where I am you glory, and you are one with me, where our individual ego, the idea of `I` is no longer applicable.
So going back to the statement of krishna mentioned above, and others alluding to the same thing in the Gita, Krishna is speaking of this one ness that we , as humans are not aware, but as God and as one with us, he is.I cant remebmer the exact quote but Jesus refers to a similar thing in the bible, but it has been misinterpreted by christians unfortunately.

So my guess is that the universal `WE` that folks keep referring to in these posts is this, a one ness with God, they speak of the fact that although we appear seperate, we are in fact , in reality not it is just our human perception that makes us appear disconnected.

The really impoortant thing tho isd not the semantics but to get our heads out of the clouds and deal with things as we do percieve them, as humnas, and keep working -spiritually- until we are able to percieve them at a higher level.

Glorymist
03-08-2006, 01:02 AM
Peteyzen - - (Nice to have you back) - -

I'm gonna stay out of this one. The more I say about it - - the more I will perhaps shake somebody's treen when I do not need to do so. You know what to do if you really want to talk this thru.

And - - I ask you please - - it is NOT that I relish duality / non-duality. It is because I can see by what's written - - both here and in the various web sites that are offered as repositories of information - - than a valid understanding of duality / non-duality is NOT being promoted. It is being miscontrued - - along with dozens of other concepts and principles.

But - - such is the Path.

As far as Oneness goes - - the fact that all is made from the same spiritual essence / energy - - Divine Spirit - - whatever you wish to call IT - - is understood. But that is where the concept ends. The fact that electricity can run anything from a toaster to the hydroelectric dynamo makes all the difference to the various appliances. If you are the toaster - - I doubt if you want the charges going thru you that runs the dynamo. There are vast differences between a VW bug and a Lexus. There are vast differences between a 1 dollar bill and a thousand dollar bill. The fact that they are both made of paper is a moot point.

I will never hold soley to the idea that we are all One - - mainly because - - I am not ONE with all other Souls. I can interact with them. I can share with them. I can even share the same space with them. But - - due to my experiences as differeing from theirs - - I am not ONE with them.

Nor will I ever hold to the idea of separation.

We are individual in our realization of LIFE. Who and what we are. Why we are here. To try and explain so much of life under the guise of we are all ONE dismisses what each individual has gone thru. This "all is ONE" concept - - the way it is being promoted - - smacks of spiritual communism.

There is balance of and between the two. No Soul who has worked hard to know who and what It is will honestly admit that I am ONE with the beginner. (And as a reminder - - I do NOT come at this in a superior / inferior way. That is not it at all ! ! I know you know this.)

So - - in essence - - we are all of the same Divine Spiritual Essence. We are vastly different in our realization of Life. Not separate. Different.

Most people don't even really want to get into this. I appreciate your curiosity.

8-infinite-8
04-08-2006, 10:05 AM
[QUOTE=Glorymist]
But once again - - ego is NOT - - "thoughts that you don't want to think." Ego - - is preference. Choice. Opinion. That you what something THIS way or you want it to all happen THAT way or THIS is right and THAT is wrong. Ego is preference as based on survival. In this case - - survival of the old beliefs. The mental patterns we have accepted via which to view and understand Life.
VERY FEW people have control over their thoughts. Maybe for a moment or two - - but overall - - the inner mental chatter is incessant. Which - - is the allure of wanting the mental Silence - - and loving it when it comes - - and feeling the "bliss" of it all when it does. But very few people have control over their thoughts - - and wouldn't know how to go about it if they wanted to. So - - they opt for the silence. Which - - is a major prliminary step for later development.
QUOTE]

I would call it necessity rather than courage but I'l take the compliment anyway :smile: , I apreciate your input into the worlds growth in consciousness also Glorymist.

In reguards to the ego not being "thoughts you don't want to think", I dont think i explained my perspective very clearly.
When you get to a point in your spiritual journey as you probably know, you come to a point where you don't want to be egotistical, or, outstanding anymore, & you become more aware of the thoughts in your head, that simply are not your "opinion".
So if you are aware of these thoughts at the same time as dis-identifying from them, you then reduce the power these thoughts can have over you.
So from that state of conscious awareness of your thoughts, I think that any thoughts you don't want to think are ultimately a result of the ego (false self) in my experience any ways.

Time for pizza now:smile:

Glorymist
05-08-2006, 12:40 AM
Oh My Goodness ! !

Pizza takes priority over EVERY-thing ! !

mmMMmm <slurp>