Resistance = Focus = Judgement = Fighting

[DreamBliss]

I have finished reading, "The Naked Now" by Richard Rohr and this book has opened my eyes and given me many insights. For anyone unfamiliar with the work Brother Rohr is Franciscan Monk who, in this text, teaches everyone, of any religion, "To See As The Mystics See." You can find out more about Brother Rohr at WikiPedia.

The book is not easy to read. By that I mean the author is an excellent writer, but you have to read things slowly, sometimes several times, to get to the full meaning of what they are saying. I had to rush through this because the book is overdue and I have to turn it in tomorrow. I have been blessed with a high reading comprehension, but I know I will have to return to this text many times in order to firmly imprint its truths in my mind. Be forewarned, some of the things he teaches will go against your personal beliefs and perspectives! This thread is not about the book, I only bring this things up because they are relevant to where I acquired my insight.

In brief it is is simply this... Resistance, Focus, Judgement and fighting are all equivalent, maybe even all ultimately the same.

What do I mean by this? Simply that when you resist the word itself implies a struggle, a fight, against something. When you focus on something you are more than likely focusing on what you don't want. When you judge something as good or bad, this or that, you resist, you focus on what you don't want, and then you fight against the thing on which you have focused, continuing to resist it, to judge it, to focus on it, and fight against it.

A personal example that may offend some, although no offense is intended. I have, for many years, been against LGBT relationships - same sex relationships. I see them as morally wrong, as corrupting our children and society, as against natural design. I am not presenting an argument here, just my point of view as a relevant illustration.

I am seeing that what I have been doing is:
1. I have judged something as good or bad, right or wrong.

2. I have focused on that which I do not want myself or any children I have to be exposed to.

3. I have resisted any sort of acceptance of this group I have labeled as undesirable.

4. I have fought against this group in any way I can.

But this is not the way to affect any sort of positive change in the society or the world:

1. Who am I to judge? I can look at the physical design of the human body, see that male and female are complementary, and that is a fact. But this is all I know. It is not my place or business to judge anyone else in any capacity. That is the work of God, the Creator, the Artist.

2. By putting my focus on that which I do not want, I remove energy from anything else, and limit my point of view. I see one puzzle piece, most likely not even the one I want, and if I were to step back and be open and aware, I would see the whole picture. Energy wasted on any kind of focus is better spent elsewhere, especially on what I do want.

3. By failing to accept, to love this group I have judged as undesirable, I offend God. He has placed His fingerprint of love in all of us! God even loved Adolf Hitler and the worst offenders in human history. When we refuse to see ourselves and others with love, refuse to see God's fingerprint in others, we reject God's love and rightly condemn ourselves.

4. By fighting this I once again am focused in what I don't want, am resisting what I don't want, based on my judgement. I expend energy not loving, if not outright hating. When I do not accept, do not acknowledge the fingerprint of God in others, I do not love them, can not love them, will not love them, and therefore will remain closed to them.

This leads me to my next point. To move from duality based thinking to nonduality thinking I have to be open and aware. It is impossible to open and aware to something I have judged as good or bad, right or wrong, where I am fighting, resisting, and focused on what I do not want. Notice that all four things in the title are things I can do. But nondual, true Christ-like thinking, truly transformative thinking, is something I have to be.

I do not open myself, I become open, then I am in a state of openness. I do not make myself aware, I become aware, and then am in a state of awareness. This places my energies on what I do want. This takes me out of a dualistic state of me VS them. This leaves all judgements in God's, the Creator's, The Artist's hands, leaving my hands and my arms open. I recognize the fingerprint of God in everyone and everything, even those people, those things, that I previously judged, that I previously labeled, as being undesirable.

That is the worst thing about judgement. You can only label, reinforcing a dualistic mindset, when you judge. You can only fight when you have an opponent. You can only resist when there is something you don't want. You can only focus when your gaze is tight and narrow, not open. Nobody can aim a sniper rifle without an open, loving gaze. You have to focus through a scope, you have to be judging, resisting and fighting against whatever or whoever it is you are focused on.

With these insights I am seeing that I have to let go of all my judgements, that I have to be careful where I am putting my energy, focusing on the things I want, but ultimately on the things God wants, and that if I am to resist or fight anything it has to be out of love.

In my quest for the Truth, to know about the reality of the afterlife, the truth behind Heaven and Hell, I am focusing on what I don't want, hell. I think in my other post some people may have been trying to tell me this. I have to let go and focus on Heaven, but ultimately on trusting God, that He will not lead me astray, that He knows what's best for me, that He loves me and will not cast me into hell, should it even exist, without good reason.

I can retain my desire for a world of healthy relationships and moral purity without defining either thing, and leaving God to fill in the blanks, based on His purposes and design. It does not matter if I am right or wrong. How can I love someone when I am judging them? They have to answer to God, and if they are doing anything against His design they will face the consequences of their actions. In the meantime I can not hope to reach anyone, help anyone, convert or transform anyone if I do not love them, do not see the fingerprint of God inside them.

You can't force anyone to change. Change is initiated by an individual's will alone, they have to want to change. The more you attack, the more they will defend and the less they will want to change.

I knew this as Christian. I don't know how I came to that revelation. But it allowed me to be open to other faiths and religions, without judgement or hatred, and because of that openness I have seen the similarities between all religions, and I have received many marvelous insights!

Now I have to step back from these last bastions of things I don't want and become open and aware, loving the person, even if I disagree with their actions. Disagreement is a far cry from judgement, you can reach someone you disagree with, help them see other points of view, lead them to a place where they may decide to change. None of that is possible with someone you have judged, labeled, resisted and fought.

Just a few things here from my notes tonight:

"Resistance is focusing on what I do not want,
It works against the Law of Attraction,
It takes a lot of energy and attention to focus on anything,
That focus prevents me from seeing the bigger picture,
From keeping my attention and awareness open."

I started to cry for some reason as I wrote this. That has never happened to me before. It also does not feel complete yet:

"God has placed His fingerprint of love in everyone and everything.
He loves us all, the best and worst of us, with the same love.
When we refuse to recognize that fingerprint in others, seeing them as God does.
We reject God's love and are justly condemned.
We must love everyone and everything that holds the fingerprint of God inside.
If He loves him, her or it, what right have we, especially as His children, to not love him, her, or it as well?
We can not be of God, of His mind, if we do not love as He does."

The original version (where I started to cry in an overwhelming feeling of sadness):

"God has placed His fingerprint, in all of Creation.
He loves us all, the worst and best of us, equally.
When we refuse to see that fingerprint in others,
To look at them as God does,
We reject God's love, and are justly condemned.
We must love ourselves and others,
With the same love with which God loves us."

I leave you with one last thought, taken from Mr. Rohr, written in my own words, "By reading this you recognize something you have already found and for which you have been searching."
- DreamBliss

[Mountain-Goat]

In brief it is is simply this... Resistance, Focus, Judgement and fighting are all equivalent, maybe even all ultimately the same.
If they were, one wouldn't all four words.
It is not my place or business to judge anyone else in any capacity. That is the work of God, the Creator, the Artist.
How can I love someone when I am judging them?
Yes, how can this god you speak of love people when it judges people?
In the meantime I can not hope to reach anyone, help anyone, convert or transform anyone if I do not love them, do not see the fingerprint of God inside them.
If you don't judge them, they don't need converting or transforming, they are loved as they are.
Disagreement is a far cry from judgement, you can reach someone you disagree with, help them see other points of view, lead them to a place where they may decide to change. None of that is possible with someone you have judged, labeled, resisted and fought.
If they are not judged, they do not need to change.
Soo, as long as god judges people, it's impossible for anyone to change?

All this talk about the problems with judging...perhaps this god you speak of could benefit from reading this book you mentioned.

[DreamBliss]

If they were, one wouldn't all four words.
The English language, at least, is choke full of different words that refer to the same thing. Banana = Fruit = Food.

To be clearer what I am saying here is that these four things are all related, entangled together, all leading to the same place.

You can probably substitute any one of these actions with any of the others and it will not change the meaning, or at the very least the ultimate outcome.

Yes, how can this god you speak of love people when it judges people?

If God is the Creator, Designer, and Artist, then He has earned that right, hasn't He? You are a pot and He is the potter. If He created you, as well as the worlds in which you exist, and designed things in a particular way, then it is His right to judge you when you go against His designs.

We have free will - the ability to decide for ourselves what we will do. God does not control us or our actions. But if we choose wrongly, we suffer. We are destroying the earth, our home. If this results in our destruction, we brought it on ourselves didn't we? We had a choice, to care for the earth or not, and we chose wrongly.

In the area of relationships if you go against God's design there will may be consequences. Perhaps this is where aids and STDs come from.

If you don't judge them, they don't need converting or transforming, they are loved as they are.

If they are not judged, they do not need to change.
Soo, as long as god judges people, it's impossible for anyone to change?

I'm afraid your logic is flawed here. Just because I don't judge someone, does not mean that they are, in essence, perfect as they are, which is what you seem to be saying. It also does not mean that they do not need to change or be transformed. Everyone, no matter who they are, has things they need to change about themselves, or else growth and learning is impossible, especially spiritual growth.

Yes, they are loved as they are, and I love them because God does and I have no right not to. If God considers them worthy of love, if He considers me worthy of love, then I must return that love or reject it. Again a choice, with accompanying consequences.

Ultimately what I am saying here is that the judgement should be, really must be, left to God, in my viewpoint. If God exists, if He created and designed everyone and everything, then He has wrote the rules and He will enforce them. It is not up to me.

Ignorance of this is what has lead organized religion to war for God, or their religious beliefs. Some idea that they are the enforcers of God's rules, and the harbingers of His judgement. If these people are God's representatives of Him on earth, who would ever want to follow Him? Organized religion has shot itself in the foot, and because of its wrong approach is suffering the consequences of its actions, which is that people reject their idea of God.

People have a choice to change, and it is up to them to decide. They will know if they need to change by circumstances in their lives, such as consequences of their actions, or listening to their conscience and realizing that they are doing something wrong, or someone in love, approaching them, who helps them to see something they have been doing wrong.

We are all connected to each other and our world. We need each other, and our world. Nobody has all the answers, nobody is perfect, one's ego and personal biases will blind them to certain things. It is up to those without blindness in these ares to approach someone who is blind, and help them open their eyes. This must be done completely out of love or it won't work.

All this talk about the problems with judging...perhaps this god you speak of could benefit from reading this book you mentioned.
Chances are He wrote the book the author draws from, and inspired the author's book itself. :tongue:

I say none of this out of judgement, or to challenge anyone's beliefs. I am also not saying these things to defend my post. If there is any truth in my words it will defend itself. I am simply answering, based on what I believe, your statements, which I have decided to see as questions. I am merely providing you with possible answers.
- DreamBliss

[Mountain-Goat]

The English language, at least, is choke full of different words that refer to the same thing. Banana = Fruit = Food. Those are sub categories within categories.
Not the same as saying Resistance, Focus, Judgement and fighting all mean the same thing.
To be clearer what I am saying here is that these four things are all related, entangled together, all leading to the same place. Thanks for the change in what you meant to say.
You can probably substitute any one of these actions with any of the others and it will not change the meaning, or at the very least the ultimate outcome. Resistance, Focus, Judgement and fighting
I am fighting with another person. Meaning - i am fighting.

I am resisting another person's attacks. Meaning - i am not fighting, i am resisting the urge to fight. I am defending...not fighting.
And as long as I continue to resist, this will never become fighting unless i stop resisting and begin fighting.
But this is not resisting turning into fighting.
This is me deciding to stop resisting and do something completely different, to begin fighting.

I am focusing on another person's attacks. Meaning - my attention is fixed on what another is doing. I am not fighting or defending, I am observing.
Observing is not fighting, nor does observing automatically lead to fighting.

I am judging another person's actions. Meaning i am evaluating another's actions to determine if they are attacking or not.
Again, assessing the actions of another and judging them to be fighting against me does not automatically mean i will eventually fight back.

Yes all four are related, entangled, but to me, they don't all lead to one same result.

If God is the Creator, Designer, and Artist, then He has earned that right, hasn't He? Everyone is free to do as they please.
You are a pot and He is the potter. If He created you, as well as the worlds in which you exist, and designed things in a particular way, then it is His right to judge you when you go against His designs. Yes, this god you speak of can judge if it likes, but according to you and what this guy said in the book, judging means you are not loving those that you judge.
That's why i said that maybe god should read the book.
We have free will - the ability to decide for ourselves what we will do. God does not control us or our actions. But if we choose wrongly, we suffer. That's called blackmail.
Do as i say or you will suffer the consequences.
It's emotional manipulation. The realm of immature and insecure beings.
A lovng being would not resort to this kind of tactic against those they love.

We are destroying the earth, our home. If this results in our destruction, we brought it on ourselves didn't we? Yes, we are responsible for ourselves, there is no need to bring a god into the equation.
We had a choice, to care for the earth or not, and we chose wrongly. One can't know something is wrong till one sees the consequences of one's actions then judges it to be wrong.
Then after judging it to be wrong, one can then change one's behavior to stop doing this thing.
If one does not judge it to be wrong, the destructive action would continue.
In the area of relationships if you go against God's design there will may be consequences. Perhaps this is where aids and STDs come from. If god is the creator and artist, then Aids and STDs come from god's brush.
I'm afraid your logic is flawed here. Just because I don't judge someone, does not mean that they are, in essence, perfect as they are, which is what you seem to be saying. I have not said that. That's what you are saying.
This is you saying what you think i am saying.
I never mentioned anything about perfection.
But since you brought it up, if they are perfect, they do not need to change do they?
If they are perfect, why the judgement they need to change?
It also does not mean that they do not need to change or be transformed. Everyone, no matter who they are, has things they need to change about themselves, or else growth and learning is impossible, especially spiritual growth. Soo, they are not perfect?
And how does one conclude a person needs to change.
Oh look, it's Judgement - The cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions.
Yes, they are loved as they are, and I love them because God does and I have no right not to. If God considers them worthy of love, if He considers me worthy of love, then I must return that love or reject it. Again a choice, with accompanying consequences. Must denotes you have no choice, or the choice is enforced by dire consequences if you don't.
Ultimately what I am saying here is that the judgement should be, really must be, left to God, in my viewpoint. If God exists, if He created and designed everyone and everything, then He has wrote the rules and He will enforce them. It is not up to me. Yes, god the enforcer, "do what i say of suffer...my much loved children."
I am well aware you were saying judgement is god's job, not yours.
What I'm pointing to is you and the author of the book are saying judging is norty, but's it's quite alright when god does it.
Perhaps god could also benefit by reading books on how to be a good role model.
You know, practice what you preach, lead by example, that kinda stuff.
Ignorance of this is what has lead organized religion to war for God, or their religious beliefs. Some idea that they are the enforcers of God's rules, and the harbingers of His judgement. If these people are God's representatives of Him on earth, who would ever want to follow Him? Using christianity as an example, and the Isaelites... they followed god's lead.
Don't blame the followers, blame the leader.
Organized religion has shot itself in the foot, and because of its wrong approach is suffering the consequences of its actions, which is that people reject their idea of God. Are you judging them?
People have a choice to change, and it is up to them to decide. They will know if they need to change by circumstances in their lives, such as consequences of their actions, or listening to their conscience and realizing that they are doing something wrong, or someone in love, approaching them, who helps them to see something they have been doing wrong. So judging is ok then?
We are all connected to each other and our world. We need each other, and our world. Nobody has all the answers, nobody is perfect, one's ego and personal biases will blind them to certain things. It is up to those without blindness in these ares to approach someone who is blind, and help them open their eyes. This must be done completely out of love or it won't work. And how does one determine who is blind and who isn't?
Chances are He wrote the book the author draws from, and inspired the author's book itself. :tongue: Does the author mention this in his book, seeing as that's a big deal, finding a book written by god.
I say none of this out of judgement, or to challenge anyone's beliefs. I am also not saying these things to defend my post. If there is any truth in my words it will defend itself. I am simply answering, based on what I believe, your statements, which I have decided to see as questions. I am merely providing you with possible answers.
- DreamBliss Thankyou.

[DreamBliss]

Yes, this god you speak of can judge if it likes, but according to you and what this guy said in the book, judging means you are not loving those that you judge. That's why i said that maybe god should read the book.

That's called blackmail.
Do as i say or you will suffer the consequences.
It's emotional manipulation. The realm of immature and insecure beings.
A lovng being would not resort to this kind of tactic against those they love.


You have, many times, brought up an interesting point here. If judgement prevents the one who judges from loving, how could God love us and judge us at the same time?

I honestly have no insight here. Haven't even spent much time dwelling on it. Benefit of being how I am. If someone in a position of authority lays down the rules, I accept that those are their rules. I do not question their right to lay them down. But I do choose whether or not I will follow them. I give an equal amount of respect to everyone, or at least try to, and anything more has to be earned.

So if I come into your house and you lay down the rules I will follow them, out of respect for you as owner, until I can't, due to my own personal life code. At that point I simply leave your house, rather than break your rule.

So it makes it easier for me to leave the judgement and rules up to God, and since according to my beliefs my body and my world were created and designed by Him, I have no way to simply leave and go elsewhere, outside of His design, so I accept that I have no choice but to follow His rules.

We'll call it His design instead. I see it as more of a design, a plan He has, His Artistic Vision. I can simply trust that unlike a human being I can follow the design of God without violating my ethics.

But this does not answer our question. How can God judge us and love us at the same time, if the two states of being are mutually exclusive?

I will provide a possible answer, a possible insight that has occurred to me with a drawing I did last night, as I sat here now thinking about it.

God can love us and judge us at the same time because He has no limited sight. He is able to see us from outside ourselves. In our natural state we are unable to see ourselves outside of our egos and biases. For the few who can observe the observer and move outside themselves, their sight is still limited, because as long as they are tied to a physical body in this world they are tied to imperfection. But God is perfect, so His seeing is perfect. That is why He is qualified to judge.

In fact I think I am wrong on something here...

It's not so much that God designed everyone and everything that gives Him the right to judge. He might have that right, but as a perfect God He could never use it as it would make Him petty. Instead His perfection places Him in a position to see us clearly, without any ego or bias, and from this point of view He can both love us and judge us, perfectly fairly, outside of any rights He may have.

It's probably not even about going against His designs. More than likely it comes back to our interconnectedness with each other and everything. Our actions are like a stone thrown into a still lake. Only God sees the ripples, how our actions affect many others, and if our actions have a negative effect on others, then God, who sees everything perfectly clearly, can judge us accordingly, even while He loves us, like a loving father punishing his child for doing something wrong, but at a level far beyond that, because once again in even our best human relationships our egos, biases and imperfections can bring us to wrong actions.

Well I don't know if this is any sort of answer, but maybe it can lead to an insight or revelation.

I have not said that. That's what you are saying...
My apologies. I re-read your statement, and see I misunderstood it.

Yes, we are responsible for ourselves, there is no need to bring a god into the equation.

If it is true that nobody is perfect, how could this be true? If nobody is perfect, then nobody could be perfectly responsible for themselves. If we agree with this, that that would mean that an outside Source, somebody without our limitations, would have to be holding us responsible. Which leads us back to judgement...


I am fighting with another person. Meaning - i am fighting.

I am resisting another person's attacks. Meaning - i am not fighting, i am resisting the urge to fight. I am defending...not fighting.
And as long as I continue to resist, this will never become fighting unless i stop resisting and begin fighting.
But this is not resisting turning into fighting.
This is me deciding to stop resisting and do something completely different, to begin fighting.

I am focusing on another person's attacks. Meaning - my attention is fixed on what another is doing. I am not fighting or defending, I am observing.
Observing is not fighting, nor does observing automatically lead to fighting.

I am judging another person's actions. Meaning i am evaluating another's actions to determine if they are attacking or not.
Again, assessing the actions of another and judging them to be fighting against me does not automatically mean i will eventually fight back.

Yes all four are related, entangled, but to me, they don't all lead to one same result.


You and I see things differently here, and that's OK. From my perspective...

Defense is a strategy of fighting. You only put up walls when you are protecting yourself from another. If there is no offense, there is no need for a defense.

Closing yourself off from another, resisting them is how you prevent yourself from being open to them and loving to them. Refusing to love another is an attack against the other. If you refuse to love another, you hurt them. There can be no pain without something that causes it.

Furthermore defense and resistance is the same as turning your back to another. Remember we are all connected. By turning your back you refuse to acknowledge that connection, and you attempt to cut yourself off from the other. You refuse to offer assistance, to help the other.

If you have the power and ability to help another, yet you do not, you are just as guilty for what happens to them as the individual responsible. If you see someone being mugged, and you have the training to handle the mugger, to stop them, and you simply walk on, you are no different that the mugger.

Being defensive, closed, resisting allows you to walk on when others are being hurt. It also keeps you from hearing the other. Closing yourself off in this way will also cause pain to the other, pain that has to have come from a source, pain which signifies an attack.

Finally when you are defensive, resisting and closed to another they may choose, due to your response to them, to be defensive, resistant and closed to another, making your ultimately responsible now for two others. The first one you hurt and drove to hurt another, making you equally responsible for their actions, and the second one who is now hurting.

When people are isolated it will drive them to violence against themselves or another. How do you think suicides happen? The individual was defensive, resistant, closed to others, and more than likely someone they cared about, or someone they needed to hear from, was defensive, resistant and closed to them.

When you focus on another, as I have already said, you enter into a state of me VS them. You separate yourself from them. If you do not focus on yourself or another, there is no division, which means there is no me VS them, which means there can be no fighting, because there is nobody to fight with.

God sees us as we are, and our connections to everyone else and everything else. By nature we only see ourselves and others. The best of us see outside ourselves, see the connection between them and others which God sees. This is, from what I read, a great source of joy. But the majority of us are mired in the illusion that we are separate, and this is how we can hurt, fight, and kill each other.

We can be judged for our actions, despite what could be perceived as our ignorance, because we can choose to be open to each other, not defensive, not resistant, loving to each other, not hating. When we choose to be defensive, resistant, closed, unloving, our decision affects us and many others, and it is only right that we are held accountable.

You would only asses the actions of another if, one some level, you were considering fighting back. Yet again you are seeing yourself as separate from the other, which is how we prepare to fight each other in the first place.

The actions of the other are between them and God. When you judge another you immediately create me VS them, enforcing this common illusion. So, in general, the only actions we should ever concern ourselves with are our own. It's too easy to move from judging an action to judging a person. Of course there are exceptions.

In a later illustration I provide, sometimes, from a state of we-ness and love, we may have to judge the actions of a person (not the person themselves) against someone else. If see that the action is negative we should intervene, again out of love and our sense of connectedness. We should never see ourselves as separate, and we should remain open and loving. Any other state will have a negative impact on others as well as ourselves.

Must denotes you have no choice, or the choice is enforced by dire consequences if you don't.
Should then. :D

Keeping in mind that our actions do not affect only us.

Are you judging them?

So judging is ok then?


Nope. Judging is wrong according to my beliefs, the scriptures I follow, and in my opinion, so I choose not to judge.

And how does one determine who is blind and who isn't?

It's fairly simple and straightforward as far as I can tell.

You see a youth in a gang. You used to be in a gang when you were their age. You know that being in a gang was not good for you, so it may not be good for them. Out of love you help the youth get out of the gang. You may even try to get all the youths out of the gang, and change your neighborhood for the better.

Your coworker friend confides in you that she is about to have an affair with another man. Your marriage fell apart because you had an affair. You know that the experience was bad for you, so it will most likely be bad for them. Out of love you try to help them see that they should work out any issues between them and their husband. You try to help your friend strengthen their relationship, or if the situation is bad enough, you help them leave an abusive one.

You are at school and you see another student cheating. Out of love, remembering the bad experience you had when you cheated, you approach them and offer to help them with their studies, or you bring over someone else who can. You try to help them to see that cheating will only hurt them in the long wrong.

In each of these cases the individuals considering doing something wrong were blind, either on purpose or out of ignorance, to the wrongness of what they were about to do. Someone else, usually someone who has been through a similar situation, sees what the other does not, and is able to help them open their eyes.

I could go on with more examples but hopefully you see what I mean by now.

Does the author mention this in his book, seeing as that's a big deal, finding a book written by god.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood me here. The book the author draws from is the Bible, and of course the Bible is not called the Word of God for no reason. But notice how I phrased what I said in reference to it.

The other reference is simply another belief of mine. I have no trouble believing that God inspires certain texts to be written. His attempt to open closed eyes, or closed hearts. I know this text opened my eyes to a number of things I need to change in my own life.

Well you have made a number of interesting statements here and I respect your point of view. I choose to remain open, loving, and non-judgmental to you, even if I disagree with anything you have said, even if you attack me for anything I said, never assuming any sort of disagreement on my part or attack on your part. So far, despite our differing points of view, I think we are getting along very well.

Ultimately no matter what you say or do I will weigh your words, consider them, and remain open, loving and non-judgmental to you. This is my choice. I could choose to fight you in defense of myself. I could close myself off to your words. I could focus completely on you or I and refuse to see that we are one, connected at a deeper level that at present, I can not see.

If I did any of these things, to my mind, I would be negatively affecting not only you and I, but others as well. I would destroy any hope of any truth in these words ever reaching you are anyone else. I would, in my mind, be fully deserving of God's judgement and punishment, especially as His representative on earth.

So I choose to do none of these things. I will continue to post my insights and point of view in as open a way as possible. This will be hard for me. I used to be, not that long ago, a highly defensive person, trying to thrust my viewpoint on others to force them to change to what I thought they should. I have been changing slowly over the last few months due to the books I have read an thd insights I have gained. I have changed even more since I posted this thread. I will continue to change, hopefully for the better.

Like everything else, I leave all of this in God's hands. I seek only to flow in my Life's Purpose, whatever that may be, following God's design for me, realizing my dreams if I am able, with no attachment, no aversion. No attachment to my words, no aversion to yours. I remain trusting and hopeful that if anything I say or write has any truth God can use to help you or others that it will reach you and them. I content myself in that, no attachment to praise and adulation, no need even, and no aversion to derision and scorn.

The tree that refuses to bend under the weight of the snow and the force of the wind breaks. The more it refuses, the worse the damage. I am becoming a supple tree with flexible branches, reaching towards the Sun, free to bend and sway joyfully in the wind, free to let go of the weight of any attachment when the snow falls.

May you also become such a tree -
:icon_sunny: DreamBliss

[Mountain-Goat]

You have, many times, brought up an interesting point here. If judgement prevents the one who judges from loving, how could God love us and judge us at the same time?

I honestly have no insight here. Haven't even spent much time dwelling on it. Benefit of being how I am. And the benefit of not taking time to explore what another says(the author of this book for example) is to believe what another says without checking it's validity?
But this does not answer our question. How can God judge us and love us at the same time, if the two states of being are mutually exclusive?

I will provide a possible answer, a possible insight that has occurred to me with a drawing I did last night, as I sat here now thinking about it.

God can love us and judge us at the same time because He has no limited sight. He is able to see us from outside ourselves. In our natural state we are unable to see ourselves outside of our egos and biases. For the few who can observe the observer and move outside themselves, their sight is still limited, because as long as they are tied to a physical body in this world they are tied to imperfection. But God is perfect, so His seeing is perfect. That is why He is qualified to judge.

In fact I think I am wrong on something here...

It's not so much that God designed everyone and everything that gives Him the right to judge. He might have that right, but as a perfect God He could never use it as it would make Him petty. Instead His perfection places Him in a position to see us clearly, without any ego or bias, and from this point of view He can both love us and judge us, perfectly fairly, outside of any rights He may have.

It's probably not even about going against His designs. More than likely it comes back to our interconnectedness with each other and everything. Our actions are like a stone thrown into a still lake. Only God sees the ripples, how our actions affect many others, and if our actions have a negative effect on others, then God, who sees everything perfectly clearly, can judge us accordingly, even while He loves us, like a loving father punishing his child for doing something wrong, but at a level far beyond that, because once again in even our best human relationships our egos, biases and imperfections can bring us to wrong actions.

Well I don't know if this is any sort of answer, but maybe it can lead to an insight or revelation. Soo, judgement is not the problem, imperfection is?
If it is true that nobody is perfect, how could this be true? If nobody is perfect, then nobody could be perfectly responsible for themselves. So what! A person can be imperfect and still be 99.9999999999999999999999% responsible for themselves,
If we agree with this, that that would mean that an outside Source, somebody without our limitations, would have to be holding us responsible. Which leads us back to judgement... Why would a perfect being of love create imperfect beings?
Defense is a strategy of fighting. You only put up walls when you are protecting yourself from another. If there is no offense, there is no need for a defense. I agree that in a fight situation, there will be defense, but that doesn't mean the defending person will attack back.
Closing yourself off from another, resisting them is how you prevent yourself from being open to them and loving to them. Refusing to love another is an attack against the other. If you refuse to love another, you hurt them. There can be no pain without something that causes it. Priority one is to love oneself, which overrides the rule to love others.
Defending oneself is loving oneself, taking care of oneself.
Even so, defending oneself and not attacking back is loving the other.
Furthermore defense and resistance is the same as turning your back to another. Remember we are all connected. By turning your back you refuse to acknowledge that connection, and you attempt to cut yourself off from the other. You refuse to offer assistance, to help the other. Defending oneself is acknowledging that connection.
A person attacks, any action you take is acknowledgement.
If you have the power and ability to help another, yet you do not, you are just as guilty for what happens to them as the individual responsible. If you see someone being mugged, and you have the training to handle the mugger, to stop them, and you simply walk on, you are no different that the mugger. Soo, if i resist the mugger by stopping him mugging another, that's good,
but if i resist the mugeer who is mugging me, that's bad?
Being defensive, closed, resisting allows you to walk on when others are being hurt. Huh? But up there one just stopped to resist a mugger who was hurting another?
It also keeps you from hearing the other. Closing yourself off in this way will also cause pain to the other, pain that has to have come from a source, pain which signifies an attack. I agree, hurting people hurt others and themselves.
However, one doesn't need to put up with being abused by such a person in order to help them.
One can resist their abuse and still hear them, see the source of their pain and offer help.
And resisting their abuse, showing them that being abusive is helping them.
Finally when you are defensive, resisting and closed to another they may choose, due to your response to them, to be defensive, resistant and closed to another, making your ultimately responsible now for two others. The first one you hurt and drove to hurt another, making you equally responsible for their actions, and the second one who is now hurting. How they choose to respond to their experiences is their responsibility, no one else's.
When people are isolated it will drive them to violence against themselves or another. If circumstances control a person's decisions and actions, then that is how it will be for them.
They are saying that circumstances are responsible for their thoughts and actions.
How do you think suicides happen? The individual was defensive, resistant, closed to others, and more than likely someone they cared about, or someone they needed to hear from, was defensive, resistant and closed to them. I attempted suicide in 2008, and there are others here who have deeply contemplated or attempted.
There's a lot more to it than your generalizations.
When you focus on another, as I have already said, you enter into a state of me VS them. You separate yourself from them. If you do not focus on yourself or another, there is no division, which means there is no me VS them, which means there can be no fighting, because there is nobody to fight with. If you equate focusing on another only as me VS them, then that is how it is for you.
I can focus on another via love and have no desire to fight them.
God sees us as we are, and our connections to everyone else and everything else. By nature we only see ourselves and others. The best of us see outside ourselves, see the connection between them and others which God sees. This is, from what I read, a great source of joy. But the majority of us are mired in the illusion that we are separate, and this is how we can hurt, fight, and kill each other. Don't believe everything you read.
I acknowledge that i am separate from others, and in this separation i choose and do love others,
i choose and don't hurt, fight and kill others.
Separation is not a problem for me.
We can be judged for our actions, despite what could be perceived as our ignorance, because we can choose to be open to each other, not defensive, not resistant, loving to each other, not hating. When we choose to be defensive, resistant, closed, unloving, our decision affects us and many others, and it is only right that we are held accountable. Self accountable, self responsible, don't need a perfect god to do for us what we can do for ourselves.
You would only asses the actions of another if, one some level, you were considering fighting back. Yet again you are seeing yourself as separate from the other, which is how we prepare to fight each other in the first place. God is perfect, we are not..there's some separation for you.
The actions of the other are between them and God. If someone is attacking me, the issue is between me and them, god is not in the situation, and not required.
When you judge another you immediately create me VS them, enforcing this common illusion. So, in general, the only actions we should ever concern ourselves with are our own. Soo, one should not help another who is being mugged?
It's too easy to move from judging an action to judging a person. Of course there are exceptions. The issue is, is judging right or wrong, not what a person can judge.
In a later illustration I provide, sometimes, from a state of we-ness and love, we may have to judge the actions of a person (not the person themselves) against someone else. If see that the action is negative we should intervene, again out of love and our sense of connectedness. We should never see ourselves as separate, and we should remain open and loving. Any other state will have a negative impact on others as well as ourselves. Soo, judgement is not the problem? What is the problem?
Nope. Judging is wrong according to my beliefs, the scriptures I follow, and in my opinion, so I choose not to judge. Yet up there you said that judging actions of people is necessary.

And how does one determine who is blind and who isn't? It's fairly simple and straightforward as far as I can tell. I agree, it is. It's called judging.
Judging - The cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions.
You see a youth in a gang. You used to be in a gang when you were their age. You know that being in a gang was not good for you, so it may not be good for them. Out of love you help the youth get out of the gang. You may even try to get all the youths out of the gang, and change your neighborhood for the better. You have judged being in a gang was no good for you.
You judge it's not good for the kid.
You judge that loving him will help him.
You judge that removing all gangs will be good for the neighbourhood.
Your coworker friend confides in you that she is about to have an affair with another man. Your marriage fell apart because you had an affair. You know that the experience was bad for you, so it will most likely be bad for them. Out of love you try to help them see that they should work out any issues between them and their husband. You try to help your friend strengthen their relationship, or if the situation is bad enough, you help them leave an abusive one. You had judged that an affair was bad for your marriage.
You judge it will be bad for your co worker. etc etc
In each of these cases the individuals considering doing something wrong were blind, either on purpose or out of ignorance, to the wrongness of what they were about to do. Someone else, usually someone who has been through a similar situation, sees what the other does not, and is able to help them open their eyes.

I could go on with more examples but hopefully you see what I mean by now. And can you see that the process involves judging.
And my point being is that judging is not bad, or good.
Judging is neutral, it's simply a process by which one reaches a conclusion.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood me here. The book the author draws from is the Bible, and of course the Bible is not called the Word of God for no reason. But notice how I phrased what I said in reference to it.

The other reference is simply another belief of mine. I have no trouble believing that God inspires certain texts to be written. His attempt to open closed eyes, or closed hearts. I know this text opened my eyes to a number of things I need to change in my own life. Imma huge fan of Jesus, but I choose not to believe everything that is written.
Well you have made a number of interesting statements here and I respect your point of view. I choose to remain open, loving, and non-judgmental to you, even if I disagree with anything you have said, even if you attack me for anything I said, never assuming any sort of disagreement on my part or attack on your part. So far, despite our differing points of view, I think we are getting along very well. Disagreeing with my views is judging, just like my disagreeing with your views are.
Have you felt attacked, considering all i have done is ask questions and share my views?
Ultimately no matter what you say or do I will weigh your words, consider them, and remain open, loving and non-judgmental to you. This is my choice. I could choose to fight you in defense of myself. I could close myself off to your words. If you disagree with my views, do not accept them as truth, is this not resistence?
Please note, i do not require you to judge my words as truth, I'm just pointing something out.
I could focus completely on you or I and refuse to see that we are one, connected at a deeper level that at present, I can not see. If you cannot see we are connected at a deeper level, why do you say we are?
If I did any of these things, to my mind, I would be negatively affecting not only you and I, but others as well. I would destroy any hope of any truth in these words ever reaching you are anyone else. I would, in my mind, be fully deserving of God's judgement and punishment, especially as His representative on earth. Don't worry, i am secure in myself that you will not negatively affect me.
So I choose to do none of these things. I will continue to post my insights and point of view in as open a way as possible. This will be hard for me. I used to be, not that long ago, a highly defensive person, trying to thrust my viewpoint on others to force them to change to what I thought they should. I have been changing slowly over the last few months due to the books I have read an thd insights I have gained. I have changed even more since I posted this thread. I will continue to change, hopefully for the better. I for one am impressed. <-- that's a sincere comment.
Like everything else, I leave all of this in God's hands. I seek only to flow in my Life's Purpose, whatever that may be, following God's design for me, realizing my dreams if I am able, with no attachment, no aversion. No attachment to my words, no aversion to yours. I remain trusting and hopeful that if anything I say or write has any truth God can use to help you or others that it will reach you and them. I content myself in that, no attachment to praise and adulation, no need even, and no aversion to derision and scorn. Sounds like a good way to live.

The tree that refuses to bend under the weight of the snow and the force of the wind breaks. The more it refuses, the worse the damage. I am becoming a supple tree with flexible branches, reaching towards the Sun, free to bend and sway joyfully in the wind, free to let go of the weight of any attachment when the snow falls.

May you also become such a tree -
:icon_sunny: DreamBliss I prefer to be like bamboo. it does not resist the weight of snow or the force of wind,
but of itself it is strong and does not break in the harsh environment of life.
It goes with the flow, but is not damaged by it.

[Squatchit]

I prefer to be like bamboo.
Just beware of the pandas. Run like the clappers if you see any. :D

Sorry. I've got my silly hat on.

:occasion18:

[Mr Interesting]

I'm with you on the Pandas Squachit... and will resist the temptation to just cuddle and frolic with those big balls of toyshop fur...

I read a little of the first post and it is good Dreambliss that you have found an author who says things that resonate with you and where you are right now.

But it doesn't mean that where you are is where everyone else is... exactly.

[Mountain-Goat]

Just beware of the pandas. Run like the clappers if you see any. :D

Sorry. I've got my silly hat on.

:occasion18:
BAZINGA !!!Beware the metapandas!!!

[DreamBliss]

But it doesn't mean that where you are is where everyone else is... exactly.

I completely agree. The post was more to share where I was, what I learned, to aid anyone else in a similar position, and of course to further embed the lessons in my own mind.

@Alternate Carpark

Again you have made several valid points and I am indeed seeing a number of logic errors in my posts. Well considering I was writing more from feelings, intuition and senses I guess this is not surprising.

Unfortunately due to recent circumstances I fear I am unable to properly respond this time. I'm now in what I think of and refer to a "strange state." I'm no longer where I was when I first started this thread and gave my first reply. I fear I may have regressed even though the insights are still with me.

I look forward to some more genteel "word sparing" with you later. Also let me change my affirmation for you to,"May you be such a bamboo plant, flexible, deeply rooted, tall, free of attachments, reaching towards the Sun, whatever that may be for you.
:D DreamBliss

[Mountain-Goat]

I completely agree. The post was more to share where I was, what I learned, to aid anyone else in a similar position, and of course to further embed the lessons in my own mind.

@Alternate Carpark

Again you have made several valid points and I am indeed seeing a number of logic errors in my posts. Well considering I was writing more from feelings, intuition and senses I guess this is not surprising.

Unfortunately due to recent circumstances I fear I am unable to properly respond this time. I'm now in what I think of and refer to a "strange state." I'm no longer where I was when I first started this thread and gave my first reply. I fear I may have regressed even though the insights are still with me.

I look forward to some more genteel "word sparing" with you later. Also let me change my affirmation for you to,"May you be such a bamboo plant, flexible, deeply rooted, tall, free of attachments, reaching towards the Sun, whatever that may be for you.
:D DreamBliss
No probs DB, and much impressed and appreciate you not being upset when interacting with me.