The paradox of unconditional love

[3dnow]

No problem if it is not unconditional love

But we are unconditional love.

[Shabby]

No problem if it is not unconditional love

But we are unconditional love.

Hey 3Dnow!
Why is that a problem in your opinion .....not saying it is or it isn't.

[Xan]

I don't see a paradox, 3d. Would you explain?


Xan

[BlueSky]

No problem if it is not unconditional love

But we are unconditional love.

I just got through listening to a renown scientist, who understands the evolution of consciousness in life, say, when asked what he looks forward to, that he longs to see in the future the extent of the evolution of love.

How beautiful to hear and how different from hearing that we are some form of perfect love.

His ideas seem more unconditional cuz they allow for love to grow and evolve...to me anyway.

Just thought I'd share that.

[Gem]

I just got hrough listening to a scientist who understands the evolution of consciousness say, when asked what he looks forward to, that he longs to see in the future the extent of the evolution of love.



Best thing ever said on a love thread ^

[BlueSky]

Best thing ever said on a love thread ^

Yes, when I heard it, I said something similar to myself. It has a nice ring to it. It does love justice.
His name is Dr. Brian Swimme. These were his exact words.

"I am fascinated at how care and love have deepened over millions and millions of years so one thing I'd love to know more about is the evolution of love in the future"

He believes it will transcend the limits of evolving consciousness that we know today.

[Xan]

As I see it, it's not love that has evolved but our awareness in it.


Xan

[BlueSky]

As I see it, it's not love that has evolved but our awareness in it.


Xan


Not in an attempt to discredit what you see but in support of the opposite I share what I see:
Nothing is permanent..........life clearly teaches us that. The love that evolves and the consciousness that has grown to be conscious of it are the same thing............life, and everything about life is evolving.

James

[Humm]

Not in an attempt to discredit what you see but in support of the opposite I share what I see:
Nothing is permanent..........life clearly teaches us that. The love that evolves and the consciousness that has grown to be conscious of it are the same thing............life, and everything about life is evolving.

James
No, Xan has it right.

[Silver]

But who's counting, right?

I like WhiteShaman's slant on it, personally.

[BlueSky]

No, Xan has it right.

What makes you believe that?

[BlueSky]

But who's counting, right?

I like WhiteShaman's slant on it, personally.

In the words of Tzu...it is self-evident. :smile:

[Silver]

I screwed up, sorry!

Humm....you were right in that I do better mornings, eeeep.

[Silver]

In the words of Tzu...it is self-evident. :smile:

:redface:Ty~*

[BlueSky]

Umm...nu-uhhh. but seriously, I can 'see' what WS's saying and it seems plenty self-evident to me anyway.
:hug3:

Yes and for me it 'feels' right too. So it is evident in life and it feels right and according to Humm, I have it wrong.................

How does that song go...."If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right" lol

Seriously what I am saying is not at all about being right. It is simply reporting what I see.

[Humm]

Yes and for me it 'feels' right too. So it is evident in life and it feels right and according to Humm, I have it wrong.................

How does that song go...."If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right" lol

Seriously what I am saying is not at all about being right. It is simply reporting what I see.
How is that different from anyone else?

You know, for a guy who says one sees anything they want to, you sure take your perspective seriously.

Also ~ please pardon my opinion.

[Gem]

Yes, when I heard it, I said something similar to myself. It has a nice ring to it. It does love justice.
His name is Dr. Brian Swimme. These were his exact words.

"I am fascinated at how care and love have deepened over millions and millions of years so one thing I'd love to know more about is the evolution of love in the future"

He believes it will transcend the limits of evolving consciousness that we know today.

It relates very well to the experience anyone has, and disbands any requirement for a dual paradigm like conditional/unconditional.

[Silver]

How is that different from anyone else?

You know, for a guy who says one sees anything they want to, you sure take your perspective seriously.

Also ~ please pardon my opinion.

Okay, I will ~ for him! :happy1: (I just wanted the popcorn.:tongue:)

[Silver]

It relates very well to the experience anyone has, and disbands any requirement for a dual paradigm like conditional/unconditional.

Yeah, Gem. ~nods~
:hug3:

[BlueSky]

How is that different from anyone else?

You know, for a guy who says one sees anything they want to, you sure take your perspective seriously.

Also ~ please pardon my opinion.

I wasn't moved either way by what you said.........I was just making a point. You have read something in my words that I didn't put there...probably due to previous dialogs we have had..

It is not an opinion that life is impermanent. It is self-evident. It is an opinion to believe that it is not........and thats Ok, all I was asking you is why do you believe Xan is right, as you put it?

You didn't answer me........again. You do that alot you know...lol

So tell me why is she right and how can what is self-evident, in this case, impermanence, be not right?

Heck, maybe this was The Buddhas message all along.

[Gem]

No, Xan has it right.

Xan said 'as I see it'.

You agree with that sentiment.

White Shaman had a great response, which again disbanded dual paradigms.

[Silver]

Yeah, Gem. ~nods~
:hug3:

...but then again, I may just be a bobble-head having a human experience...
:D

[BlueSky]

....and I said that one can expereince anything they want to. How we can use that I don't know.
It is not relevant to this discussion.
Self-evident is self-evident because it is self-evident.

[Humm]

I wasn't moved either way by what you said.........I was just making a point. You have read something in my words that I didn't put there...probably due to previous dialogs we have had..

It is not an opinion that life is impermanent. It is self-evident. It is an opinion to believe that it is not........and thats Ok, all I was asking you is why do you believe Xan is right, as you put it?

You didn't answer me........again. You do that alot you know...lol

So tell me why is she right and how can what is self-evident, in this case, impermanence, be not right?

Heck, maybe this was The Buddhas message all along.
Back to demanding answers ey?

Well, who am I to deny anyone.

Because it is self-evident.

There - doesn't that add a lot of weight to my argument? :rolleyes:

[Humm]

Xan said 'as I see it'.

You agree with that sentiment.

White Shaman had a great response, which again disbanded dual paradigms.
Is dual paradigms your new issue?

Oy. :rolleyes:

[Silver]

Can you imagine all the busted knuckles and broken teeth and noses if these convos were happening in a bar lateat night?

[BlueSky]

Back to demanding answers ey?

Well, who am I to deny anyone.

Because it is self-evident.

There - doesn't that add a lot of weight to my argument? :rolleyes:

No...... asking......:confused:

Can you show me?

[BlueSky]

Can you imagine all the busted knuckles and broken teeth and noses if these convos were happening in a bar lateat night?

lol..........:smile:

[Newfreedom9]

The way I see it, our higher Self is God who is unconditional love. All else is illusion. Conditional love is not love at all. It is like, lust, a feeling... etc. We should have a lot more words for love...

[Gem]

Is dual paradigms your new issue?

Oy. :rolleyes:

What people have a tendency to do is present love as a spiritual jewel. It set's apart a 'special Love' which people can imagine and crave for. The preachers of Love don't understand the temptation and desire evoked by it... and thier 'followers' are led to make a comparison between the love they feel and the Love which is sold like a carrot on a stick.

What White Shaman has acheived with his view is the realistic focus on the evolution which entails becoming deeper in love and bringing that expression through the personality, and the evolution of that deepening by way of generational evolution.

Xan merely said 'as I see it', which is fine, any one can see it as they like, but WS unites the evolving consciousness with the propencity of love, and Xan seperates Love as something else which people become more aware of.

I guess it's inevitable that the Love preachers will stand apart in righteousness, but there's more that one way of seeing, and diverse views broaden perspective.

[Humm]

Can you imagine all the busted knuckles and broken teeth and noses if these convos were happening in a bar lateat night?
Why do you say that?

Perhaps you roll with a much more sensitive crowd than I - in my crew this is quite jocular. :D

[Humm]

What people have a tendency to do is present love as a spiritual jewel. It set's apart a 'special Love' which people can imagine and crave for. The preachers of Love don't understand the temptation and desire evoked by it... and thier 'followers' are led to make a comparison between the love they feel and the Love which is sold like a carrot on a stick.

What White Shaman has acheived with his view is the realistic focus on the evolution which entails becoming deeper in love and bringing that expression through the personality, and the evolution of that deepening by way of generational evolution.

Xan merely said 'as I see it', which is fine, any one can see it as they like, but WS unites the evolving consciousness with the propencity of love, and Xan seperates Love as something else which people become more aware of.

I guess it's inevitable that the Love preachers will stand apart in righteousness, but there's more that one way of seeing, and diverse views broaden perspective.
Ah yes, well then I can quite understand why officer Gem of the spirit police patrols nightly handing out citations for infractions. :tongue:

[Silver]

Why do you say that?

Perhaps you roll with a much more sensitive crowd than I - in my crew this is quite jocular. :D

You really wanna know? ~snicker~ What triggered that thought was your eye-rollin' emoticon, rofl!
:rolleyes::tongue:

[BlueSky]

The way I see it, our higher Self is God who is unconditional love. All else is illusion. Conditional love is not love at all. It is like, lust, a feeling... etc. We should have a lot more words for love...

I have come to see that all of these things that people believe (higher self. God, unconditional love, illusion) are like looking thru a clouded window at what is self evident and that is that all is life and life is evolving and it has evolved in humans to be conscious and to be conscious of being conscious.
Until this is seen clearly for oneself, it looks like higher self, God, illusion, etc. thru that clouded window.

It's all good...........

[Silver]

Ah yes, well then I can quite understand why officer Gem of the spirit police patrols nightly handing out citations for infractions. :tongue:
I thought what Gem said there was impressive.

Uhm, not that you're not - sometimes.
:hug3:

[BlueSky]

You really wanna know? ~snicker~ What triggered that thought was your eye-rollin' emoticon, rofl!
:rolleyes::tongue:

It wouldn't be a fair fight cuz unconditional love people would not hit back...lol

[Silver]

Now it's getting interesting...

[BlueSky]

I thought what Gem said there was impressive.

:hug3:

Me too.......................and I am not surprised that Gem sees this that is self-evident because what is also self-evident is that Gem is honest with himself...............(and us...lol)

[Newfreedom9]

Hmm interesting concept.

[Xan]

Now "self-evident" has become validation for what is actually just an individual point of view. geez....

I'm still wondering what 3d meant by "paradox of unconditional love".


Xan

[BlueSky]

Now "self-evident" has become validation for what is actually just an individual point of view. geez....

I'm still wondering what 3d meant by "paradox of unconditional love".


Xan


No.......self evident doesn't need me to point it out............

Have a great night Xan...........off to bed.

[Xan]

Self-evident to whose self?
What is a self-evident perspective to you is not to me
so it's still in the realm of the relative...
not the absolute
which is no ideas at all.


nighty nite


Xan

[3dnow]

Now "self-evident" has become validation for what is actually just an individual point of view. geez....

I'm still wondering what 3d meant by "paradox of unconditional love".


Xan

Well it is a paradox because,

Our essence is unconditional love but
we cannot judge our lower nature (no unconditional love) because
this would not be unconditional love.

3d

[Gem]

Ah yes, well then I can quite understand why officer Gem of the spirit police patrols nightly handing out citations for infractions. :tongue:

My previous post was merely some furthur commentry on the views which were presented.

I pointed out the downfalls of the preachy Love method because it's aimless and misleading, and detrimental in that it sets up a comparison between the 'follower's' love and the preacher's Love... invoking a desire for that Love and distracting from the love which is heartfelt and present.

You're just trying to raise a storm with sarcasm and smart alec attitude because you have nothing thoughtful to say...

[Gem]

I don't even know what thread I'm on... coz there's two of these love thangs going ATM.

[Mr Interesting]

Paradox...maybe the only condition of unconditional love is that we drop of conditions of love.

'Cause you back in evolution and, to use the parable of the apple, we choose knowledge and the mind and then we need to drop those conditions to respond to unconditional love. Looking, then, at accepting that love, though unconditional, we have conditions that we must meet to accept it... surrender etc.

But it's not really a paradox.... just transformation.

[3dnow]

I just got through listening to a renown scientist, who understands the evolution of consciousness in life, say, when asked what he looks forward to, that he longs to see in the future the extent of the evolution of love.

How beautiful to hear and how different from hearing that we are some form of perfect love.

His ideas seem more unconditional cuz they allow for love to grow and evolve...to me anyway.

Just thought I'd share that.

Unconditional love can evolve?

Tolerance and respect for every possible thought and behaviour without being victim.

How can this evolve? It is already perfect.

3d

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Perhaps.. the 'paradox' is that Love IS unconditional, 'until' we name it, and dress it up as another pseudo-deity.. yes, Love evolves along with our awareness of it, because that's what it 'is', a 'name' we assign to a very supreme 'feeling', and.. that 'feeling' evolves along with Life and the Whole of existence..

Perhaps.. if we simply honored the 'feeling' of Love, rather than dressing it up like some pseudo-deity, we could experience the self-evident unconditional nature of it's potential to evolve along with the rest of the Cosmos..

Be well..

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Greetings..

Perhaps.. the 'paradox' is that Love IS unconditional, 'until' we name it, and dress it up as another pseudo-deity.. yes, Love evolves along with our awareness of it, because that's what it 'is', a 'name' we assign to a very supreme 'feeling', and.. that 'feeling' evolves along with Life and the Whole of existence..

Perhaps.. if we simply honored the 'feeling' of Love, rather than dressing it up like some pseudo-deity, we could experience the self-evident unconditional nature of it's potential to evolve along with the rest of the Cosmos..

Be well..

Yes, yes, and yes . I already said there are different kinds of love , which is saying something on the way to saying that love is really beyond what our ideas (and therefore labels) about it are. I might think of it as a kind of energy flow or resonance that manifests in different ways on different levels , that is an inherent quality of being. A step removed from the absolute , which is formless and without attribute, there is the energy of consciousness , which shines with light, sings with inner sound, and feels good with that which we might call love , all of which corresponds down into
people and emotions and that which we do call love . Putting conditions on it is pointless . Tapping into it , finding ways to manifest it ... well ... what you just said.

DS

[sound]

I have come to see that all of these things that people believe (higher self, God, unconditional love, illusion) are like looking thru a clouded window at what is self evident and that is that all is life and life is evolving and it has evolved in humans to be conscious and to be conscious of being conscious.
Until this is seen clearly for oneself, it looks like higher self, God, illusion, etc. thru that clouded window.

It's all good...........

There's a lot I don't understand, but I understand that James :) ...

[BlueSky]

Self-evident to whose self?
What is a self-evident perspective to you is not to me
so it's still in the realm of the relative...
not the absolute
which is no ideas at all.


nighty nite


Xan


Life and everything about it, including love, is impermanent, changing, evolving, continuing.
What else can I say...........it's not something to debate because life itself has evolved to where it's consciousness refuses to see this . Who am I to argue with life. :smile:

[BlueSky]

There's a lot I don't understand, but I understand that James :) ...

Cool..................:smile:

[BlueSky]

Greetings..

Perhaps.. the 'paradox' is that Love IS unconditional, 'until' we name it, and dress it up as another pseudo-deity.. yes, Love evolves along with our awareness of it, because that's what it 'is', a 'name' we assign to a very supreme 'feeling', and.. that 'feeling' evolves along with Life and the Whole of existence..

Perhaps.. if we simply honored the 'feeling' of Love, rather than dressing it up like some pseudo-deity, we could experience the self-evident unconditional nature of it's potential to evolve along with the rest of the Cosmos..

Be well..

Yes and this is actually what it was that slapped me in the face causing me to look with new eyes at life...................................the 'need' for there to be a diety, be it love, God, higher self, purpose, path or whatever.
When the need was seen for what it was.............there it was right in front of my eyes, life, and at first it was blinding, stinging, now I have come to accept it and am relearning how to live my life at age 53 without God. Without there being something permanent and with there being the importance of my role in it at some level.
It was a beautiful story..God/absolute/higher self.......it was part of the evolution of consciousness. How awesome is that! :smile:

[Shabby]

Yes and this is actually what it was that slapped me in the face causing me to look with new eyes at life...................................the 'need' for there to be a diety, be it love, God, higher self, purpose, path or whatever.
When the need was seen for what it was.............there it was right in front of my eyes, life, and at first it was blinding, stinging, now I have come to accept it and am relearning how to live my life at age 53 without God. Without there being something permanent and with there being the importance of my role in it at some level.
It was a beautiful story..God/absolute/higher self.......it was part of the evolution of consciousness. How awesome is that! :smile:

Yes it is a beautiful story and so is the belief that consciousness is evolving : )

[BlueSky]

Yes it is a beautiful story and so is the belief that consciousness is evolving : )

Life is evolving..........consciousness is part that process.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Life is evolving..........consciousness is part that process.

Yes, there's consciousness itself , which is unchanging , and then there's the evolution of our awareness as self-aware beings , over the course of eons .

[Shabby]

Life is evolving..........consciousness is part that process.

Don't you see James that this is a belief? I know it's a belief, because I don't believe life is evolving nor changing. Life is the same 100 years ago or even 1000 years ago. Life is Life. What changes is the form life takes....but the form is not Life. What changes is how we perceive that form....but what we perceive is not Life. What changes is how we interact with that life.....but we are not our interactions....we are life and that never changes....in my opinion : )

[Silver]

I too believe that consciousness is evolving...how can it not? It's a part of us and what we do.

[Humm]

My previous post was merely some furthur commentry on the views which were presented.

I pointed out the downfalls of the preachy Love method because it's aimless and misleading, and detrimental in that it sets up a comparison between the 'follower's' love and the preacher's Love... invoking a desire for that Love and distracting from the love which is heartfelt and present.

You're just trying to raise a storm with sarcasm and smart alec attitude because you have nothing thoughtful to say...
...aimless and misleading and detrimental...

Gem, I haven't said a thoughtful thing yet that you haven't simply dismissed. When you say 'thoughtful' don't you mean 'that Gem agrees with'??

Here is a question for you:

Do you feel there exists something outside of yourself that is greater - Greater in scope, greater in power, greater in consciousness - than yourself?

This is the crux of the matter.

Feel free, anyone, to answer the above question - I guarantee your answers will follow the split down the Love question without fail - though your answer may not be what you think it is.

[Silver]

Do you feel there exists something outside of yourself that is greater - Greater in scope, greater in power, greater in consciousness - than yourself?

After reading all these 'love' discussions over a long period of time, and mulling things over, I tend to want to say that we are a part of everything and everything is a part of us ~ we just don't always realize it ~ yet. I'm fairly surprised. It's like we've somehow been trained/conditioned to separate out different parts of ourselves, and now lots of people are trying to re-integrate / reclaim everything..

[Shabby]

I too believe that consciousness is evolving...how can it not? It's a part of us and what we do.

Maybe consciousness is evolving, maybe not. Is consciousness unconditional love? Does unconditional love change, move, evolve? It simply does not makes sense to me to think consciousness is evolving and it is unconditional love. Anything that evolves, changes or moves is conditioned....just my take on things : )

[Humm]

Do you feel there exists something outside of yourself that is greater - Greater in scope, greater in power, greater in consciousness - than yourself?

After reading all these 'love' discussions over a long period of time, and mulling things over, I tend to want to say that we are a part of everything and everything is a part of us ~ we just don't always realize it ~ yet. I'm fairly surprised. It's like we've somehow been trained/conditioned to separate out different parts of ourselves, and now lots of people are trying to re-integrate / reclaim everything..
...or re-separate and re-free everything...

Silly, isn't it. :wink:

[Silver]

Maybe consciousness is evolving, maybe not. Is consciousness unconditional love? Does unconditional love change, move, evolve? It simply does not makes sense to me to think consciousness is evolving and it is unconditional love. Anything that evolves, changes or moves is conditioned....just my take on things : )

It's not easy to talk about these things because it's not always easy to 'picture' them in our minds and/or imagine how they really function. For me anyway. I'm not all that sure that unconditional love is the best terminology for what some simply call love. I think as we humans go through our changes, everything in and about us has to change, or so it would seem to me...

[Silver]

...or re-separate and re-free everything...

Silly, isn't it. :wink:

Not sure it's silly because I'm not getting what you mean. I guess as usual, we see oppositely of one another.

[Humm]

Not sure it's silly because I'm not getting what you mean. I guess as usual, we see oppositely of one another.
What I mean is if a person has a genuine feeling of something genuinely larger than him/herself, then it will be readily apparent that no words can dim or enclose that thing, positive or negative.

It will BE what it IS. Words are just words - the fears that 3d and WS and Tzu and Gem express disappear because it is known they are baseless.

[Silver]

What I mean is if a person has a genuine feeling of something genuinely larger than him/herself, than it will be readily apparent that no words can dim or enclose that thing, positive or negative.

It will BE what it IS. Words are just words - the fears that 3d and WS and Tzu and Gem express disappear because it is known they are baseless.

...If you're talking about Love being this larger than self, maybe the 1st time you become aware / in awe of it, you don't realize that it's merely an extension of yourself, that it's been a part of you all the time. I'm just supposing because I don't know the answers, I can imagine someone having an experience like that, but maybe being a female of the species and giving birth can make a woman feel a whole lot different about Love and where it truly comes from. *shrug*

Is that your notion of the Fearful Foursome? Why bring them into it except you want to be right and them wrong..just sayin'
:tongue::D:hug:

[Humm]

...If you're talking about Love being this larger than self, maybe the 1st time you become aware / in awe of it, you don't realize that it's merely an extension of yourself, that it's been a part of you all the time. I'm just supposing because I don't know the answers, I can imagine someone having an experience like that, but maybe being a female of the species and giving birth can make a woman feel a whole lot different about Love and where it truly comes from. *shrug*

Is that your notion of the Fearful Foursome? Why bring them into it except you want to be right and them wrong..just sayin'
:tongue::D:hug:

Exactly. You see Love as just an extension of the individual - you DO NOT believe in something larger than yourself, thus your affiliations.

Next.

[Silver]

Exactly. You see Love as just an extension of the individual - you DO NOT believe in something larger than yourself, thus your affiliations.

Next.
Next???

I-I-I! You see Love as "...just an extension of the individual" as if that were beneath those like yourself who see Love as 'better than' or beyond one's self? How is that so whoop-t-do? I like the idea that this Love comes from us. You've said words to the effect that Love is everywhere and/or everything (not sure...), so why would it surprise you or make you feel that Love is less or lower-case love that is less good? You see why some people see this the way they see it, I find it far more wonderful the notion or belief that Love IS a part of us all. Next.

[Silver]

Oh and Humm? Btw, I'm speaking for myself. I don't need the Musketeers to help me think (sometimes).
:tongue:

[Humm]

Next???

I-I-I! You see Love as "...just an extension of the individual" as if that were beneath those like yourself who see Love as 'better than' or beyond one's self? How is that so whoop-t-do? I like the idea that this Love comes from us. You've said words to the effect that Love is everywhere and/or everything (not sure...), so why would it surprise you or make you feel that Love is less or lower-case love that is less good? You see why some people see this the way they see it, I find it far more wonderful the notion or belief that Love IS a part of us all. Next.
Everyone has their justifications, their reasonings, their opinions. I am questioning nor judging none of that. My point is simply that your specific view on this question comes straight our of your metaphysical views in general.

Yes, there is another issue of judgement here - just whose I'm not going to get into, though I will say it is the other camp that is complaining, suggesting to me it's their problem - but that's just my opinion. :tongue:

[Silver]

Everyone has their justifications, their reasonings, their opinions. I am questioning nor judging none of that. My point is simply that your specific view on this question comes straight our of your metaphysical views in general.

Yes, there is another issue of judgment here - just whose I'm not going to get into, though I will say it is the other camp that is complaining, suggesting to me it's their problem - but that's just my opinion. :tongue:

Yes, we all have our reasoning. Not sure how it got into such a tussle in the past....everyone wants to be heard. I guess it can't be helped that when someone hears or finds themselves considering things one way for the first time, it stays with, even though it may be erroneous, in a big or small way. I'm not quite getting why you are characterizing the other 'camp' as being the complainers, though. It's merely a disagreement, all things being equal..

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

There is the undifferentiated Whole, and i am a 'part' of that Wholeness.. as 'I' evolve, it evolves.. There is the vast eternal infinite Void, fertile with unmanifested potential, and it evolves along with that which exists within its bosom.. there is something much greater than me, and it is 'me', too.. i do not need to name it 'God', or Love, or awareness, or consciousness, i experience it, and 'we' evolve..

Be well

[Humm]

Yes, we all have our reasoning. Not sure how it got into such a tussle in the past....everyone wants to be heard. I guess it can't be helped that when someone hears or finds themselves considering things one way for the first time, it stays with, even though it may be erroneous, in a big or small way. I'm not quite getting why you are characterizing the other 'camp' as being the complainers, though. It's merely a disagreement, all things being equal..
You have got to be kidding me. Xan posts what she posts, then Gem comes back with the condemnation he wrote - twice - for one example - but you don't see any complaining??

I do think, however, that the quicker certain people realize they are Humanist, and NOT Spiritualist, the better.

[Silver]

You have got to be kidding me. Xan posts what she posts, then Gem comes back with the condemnation he wrote - twice - for one example - but you don't see any complaining??

I do think, however, that the quicker certain people realize they are Humanist, and NOT Spiritualist, the better.

But the well or whatever has already been poisoned. It's almost impossible to read one another's posts given the history and not feel the tension and some bristling ~ sometimes, not all the time, though. So...it's like apples and oranges arguing about apples and oranges? I won't pretend to know and would really rather ignore the labels of Humanist and Spiritualist type people, if you don't mind. Can this discussion exist without them?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Why is there a perceived difference between Humanist and Spiritualist.. they are sourced from the same mind, the same source.. neither is greater nor lesser, as they are One..

Be well..

[Shabby]

Greetings..

There is the undifferentiated Whole, and i am a 'part' of that Wholeness.. as 'I' evolve, it evolves.. There is the vast eternal infinite Void, fertile with unmanifested potential, and it evolves along with that which exists within its bosom.. there is something much greater than me, and it is 'me', too.. i do not need to name it 'God', or Love, or awareness, or consciousness, i experience it, and 'we' evolve..

Be well

Hi TzuJanli,
The problem is not that you choose to call God the undifferentiated whole....even though I personally like God better....it's soo much shorter LOL The problem is that one sees "it" (which is even shorter then God) as evolving and one does not. That does not make one right and one wrong. Both are simply concepts.

I see both, one evolving and one not. What is that which evolves evolving into other than maybe that which does not evolve!?!?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Hi TzuJanli,
The problem is not that you choose to call God the undifferentiated whole....even though I personally like God better....it's soo much shorter LOL The problem is that one sees "it" (which is even shorter then God) as evolving and one does not. That does not make one right and one wrong. Both are simply concepts.

I see both, one evolving and one not. What is that which evolves evolving into other than maybe that which does not evolve!?!?
It is the Great Mystery, Shabby.. and, i am evolving into 'that'..

Be well..

[Shabby]

Greetings..


It is the Great Mystery, Shabby.. and, i am evolving into 'that'..

Be well..

Yes...a great mystery... let's carry on : )

[Xan]

Life and everything about it, including love, is impermanent, changing, evolving, continuing.
What else can I say...........it's not something to debate because life itself has evolved to where it's consciousness refuses to see this . Who am I to argue with life. :smile:
Yes, the surface expressions of love and life are always changing and evolving, as is human consciousness.

Love itself, like awareness itself, is eternal and unchanging. Who am I to argue with the absolute. :wink:


It occurs to me, James, that you may be taking your revelation as the whole story, which is not my experience at all.

Life, Love and Consciousness keep revealing themselves to us in multiple facets, as much as we remain open.


Xan

[Xan]

Well it is a paradox because,

Our essence is unconditional love but
we cannot judge our lower nature (no unconditional love) because
this would not be unconditional love.

3d
ahhh.... Now I see, and I agree with you, 3d.

We might say our lower nature doesn't know unconditional love at all
in fact that's what makes it 'lower'
so our job is to include it all.

That's what I do, anyway.


Xan

[Xan]

Do you feel there exists something outside of yourself that is greater - Greater in scope, greater in power, greater in consciousness - than yourself?

After reading all these 'love' discussions over a long period of time, and mulling things over, I tend to want to say that we are a part of everything and everything is a part of us ~ we just don't always realize it ~ yet. I'm fairly surprised. It's like we've somehow been trained/conditioned to separate out different parts of ourselves, and now lots of people are trying to re-integrate / reclaim everything..
Yes, it's weird isn't it, sg... that we lost awareness of the wholeness of our true nature.

This is what spiritual awakening means... rediscovering what we always were but forgot.


Xan

[Xan]

...If you're talking about Love being this larger than self, maybe the 1st time you become aware / in awe of it, you don't realize that it's merely an extension of yourself, that it's been a part of you all the time.
Yes.. the first time you experience Love itself, Love for no reason, it's quite surprising.

I was sitting in silent meditation when love welled up inside me like a mountain spring... with no thought of anyone I loved.

These days it's nearly constant in my daily life, and I recognize I am an extension of It rather than the other way 'round.


Xan

[Silver]

Yes.. the first time you experience Love itself, Love for no reason, it's quite surprising.

I was sitting in silent meditation when love welled up inside me like a mountain spring... with no thought of anyone I loved.

These days it's nearly constant in my daily life, and I recognize I am an extension of It rather than the other way 'round.

Xan

I guess I think of Love/love as what 'we' do, so that's why I expressed it as 'an extension', but during these many discussions, I thought and felt that like you said "...love welled up inside me..." so, in a sense, we are the actors and the love/Love is the emotion or essence being expressed.

We are born with it, just like we're born with arms, hands, etc. and is one of the many assets, to be expressed like the artists of living that we are. Like paint or clay to those kinds of artists.

My final thought: Everything in the universe is ours.
(It just popped up, so I thought I'd say it.)

[Xan]

Nicely said, Silvergirl... Thank you.


Xan

[Humm]

What can I say?

Love conquers all - eventually. :wink:

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

'It' gets 'named', then people get 'blamed', for not getting the 'name'..

Be well..

[Silver]

Greetings..

'It' gets 'named', then people get 'blamed', for not getting the 'name'..

Be well..

It's amazing how a simple thing can get twisted by some.

Once again, I can see and appreciate 'both sides' and even the possibility that more than 2 sides are possible. If some believe there's only one way, and they believe their way is 'the one,' what accounts for their state of miffdom that others' are not in line with theirs. How do you like my new word?
:D

[Humm]

Greetings..

'It' gets 'named', then people get 'blamed', for not getting the 'name'..

Be well..
So the answer is to ban the name? Trouble is with no name, people just come up with another one.

Maybe we should look within our selves to see why we feel 'blamed' instead of trying to get everyone else to agree not to use a word...?

[Silver]

So the answer is to ban the name? Trouble is with no name, people just come up with another one.

Maybe we should look within our selves to see why we feel 'blamed' instead of trying to get everyone else to agree not to use a word...?

Pardon me ~ I don't think he's suggesting banning a word or words...it's maintaining certain outlooks and stances that could stand a little easing(?). It would be nice if there were more 'flow' just simple 'flow' between those discussing stuff. *shrug*

[Humm]

...it's maintaining certain outlooks and stances that could stand a little easing(?)...
Agreed. ...

[Lynn]

Hello

Stepping in with a REMINDER on what the topic is ....as it is NOT a personal he said she said thread......


http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31830

So lets leave those FEELING's out of here and get back to what was originally posted......


Lynn

SF Staff

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I guess I think of Love/love as what 'we' do, so that's why I expressed it as 'an extension', but during these many discussions, I thought and felt that like you said "...love welled up inside me..." so, in a sense, we are the actors and the love/Love is the emotion or essence being expressed.

We are born with it, just like we're born with arms, hands, etc. and is one of the many assets, to be expressed like the artists of living that we are. Like paint or clay to those kinds of artists.

My final thought: Everything in the universe is ours.
(It just popped up, so I thought I'd say it.)





Um, yes to that and what's in the posts above it . Saves me the time it takes to say it , about our wholeness and the Whole Thing's usness :D .

and naming , etc. great job, gang ; I expect no less :hug3:

chop metal , walk dogs today :walk: :icon_salut:

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

It's amazing how a simple thing can get twisted by some.

Once again, I can see and appreciate 'both sides' and even the possibility that more than 2 sides are possible. If some believe there's only one way, and they believe their way is 'the one,' what accounts for their state of miffdom that others' are not in line with theirs. How do you like my new word?
:D
LOL, SG.. "miffdom", i like it.. what is interesting is how people can stipulate an arbitrary condition as 'so', simply because they believe their experience is superior to anyone else's.. then, reference the experiences or understandings of others as insufficient by compassion to their perception of their own..

Whether it's 'Love', or 'God', or 'Awareness', or 'Consciousness', it is a very subjective and arbitrary assignment of 'names' to a preferred set of values.. based on some people's descriptions of their experiences, i sense that there are deep similarities between theirs and mine, but.. i prefer to allow Life to evolve, and to allow current understandings to reflect that evolution, again into the Great Mystery.. and, i have no issue with the 'name', only the insistence that any other perspective is less valid, and the unwillingness to explore other perspectives..

Be well..

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Hello

Stepping in with a REMINDER on what the topic is ....as it is NOT a personal he said she said thread......


http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31830

So lets leave those FEELING's out of here and get back to what was originally posted......


Lynn

SF Staff
What you said ...
now it's a 'what you said' thread :tongue: :wink:

Right then, do what she said !:smile:

[Squatchit]

Right said Fred. :smile:

[Newfreedom9]

Had to step away from this thread and sleep on it, as it had me thinking. I don't think unconditional love is a paradox. Like someone said earlier (reading my mind ;) unconditional love means loving yourself and everyone around you just as they are. How can you get anymore unconditional then that? By calling it unconditional, we are pointing out what we hope to achieve. So unconditional love is not calling other love conditional. But we recognize that what some call love, is not true love, because it has limits and conditions.

I also do not think that it is self evident the love is evolving. Some who lived thousands of years ago demonstrated unconditional love that most people of today have not. But as we wake up, and become deprogramed from religion and other lies, through meditation or prayer or friends, or whatever we can experience true unconditional love, at least in bursts. I have had experience with this, and would say it definitely feels like it comes from a divine source. A higher source, higher self, etc. Because I do not experience it at all times, or a steady increase of it as you would expect from evolution.

[Shabby]

Had to step away from this thread and sleep on it, as it had me thinking. I don't think unconditional love is a paradox. Like someone said earlier (reading my mind ;) unconditional love means loving yourself and everyone around you just as they are. How can you get anymore unconditional then that? By calling it unconditional, we are pointing out what we hope to achieve. So unconditional love is not calling other love conditional. But we recognize that what some call love, is not true love, because it has limits and conditions.

I also do not think that it is self evident the love is evolving. Some who lived thousands of years ago demonstrated unconditional love that most people of today have not. But as we wake up, and become deprogramed from religion and other lies, through meditation or prayer or friends, or whatever we can experience true unconditional love, at least in bursts. I have had experience with this, and would say it definitely feels like it comes from a divine source. A higher source, higher self, etc. Because I do not experience it at all times, or a steady increase of it as you would expect from evolution.

Great post Newfreedom9 and welcome to the forum : )

[Newfreedom9]

Thanks Shabby! :D

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Right said Fred. :smile:

:icon_eek:
That's too sexy for this thread
that song by Right Said Fred
something or other about the catwalk
oooohhh yeah the catwalk :redface:

Unconditionally weird musical flashback :wink:

[psychoslice]

:icon_eek:
That's too sexy for this thread
that song by Right Said Fred
something or other about the catwalk
oooohhh yeah the catwalk :redface:

Unconditionally weird musical flashback :wink:
So Dar, what did you do on the catwalk ?.

[Silver]

:icon_eek:
That's too sexy for this thread
that song by Right Said Fred
something or other about the catwalk
oooohhh yeah the catwalk :redface:

Unconditionally weird musical flashback :wink:

I only know of that song (sort of) because I accidentally added it to my ipod - b-r-r-r-r-r-r-r~*:confused1:

[Sankhara]

I don't think unconditional love is a paradox. Like someone said earlier (reading my mind ;) unconditional love means loving yourself and everyone around you just as they are. How can you get anymore unconditional then that?

Simplicity is wonderful, is it not? Beautifuly said newfreedom.

[Narcissus]

The chemistry of love is not understood properly and we class it with something platonic and yet it is mostly momentary and becomes very powerful and effective as long as the chemicals inside us are at work and once the effect of them is over I cannot say it will work. We have read about it in books and love to idealize it but things do not go the way we imagine they would.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I only know of that song (sort of) because I accidentally added it to my ipod - b-r-r-r-r-r-r-r~*:confused1:

Insertion into the 'Comedy' folder would be an acceptable , non-accidental
way to add it to an ipod :wink: . Fred Right could mingle with Frank Zappa, in a state of paradoxically unconditional 'Dirty Love' :icon_eek: :wink:

[3dnow]

Another way to say it, admitting that unconditional love is maturity:

Maturity is not important, because if we judge the immature, we are also immature.

EDIT: Just know it is immature, but don't judge it, immature and mature is the same.

3d

[BlueSky]

Had to step away from this thread and sleep on it, as it had me thinking. I don't think unconditional love is a paradox. Like someone said earlier (reading my mind ;) unconditional love means loving yourself and everyone around you just as they are. How can you get anymore unconditional then that? By calling it unconditional, we are pointing out what we hope to achieve. So unconditional love is not calling other love conditional. But we recognize that what some call love, is not true love, because it has limits and conditions.

I also do not think that it is self evident the love is evolving. Some who lived thousands of years ago demonstrated unconditional love that most people of today have not. But as we wake up, and become deprogramed from religion and other lies, through meditation or prayer or friends, or whatever we can experience true unconditional love, at least in bursts. I have had experience with this, and would say it definitely feels like it comes from a divine source. A higher source, higher self, etc. Because I do not experience it at all times, or a steady increase of it as you would expect from evolution.

You know the way I see it is that I hope you can hang onto this forever. I really mean that.
Love could only have evolved, assuming that it did if you will for a moment, because of the belief that it is something more than an evolving feeling/emotion/whatever.
An evolving love for any other reason is an empty love. A love that preserves life maybe but empty of the beauty the belief in it being something more offers.

This love you preach, to those who preach it, I say.......keep it alive. It is a beautiful story and one I miss.

There is not much else for me to say here and in fact it is time for me to be silent. It doesn't matter what we believe about love, it is just important that we do believe in it. Life is empty otherwise and doesn't care and could end tomorrow without a concern in the world. Our beliefs about love are all we have..........cherish them.

Blessings.....James

[Silver]

You know the way I see it is that I hope you can hang onto this forever. I really mean that.
Love could only have evolved, assuming that it did if you will for a moment, because of the belief that it is something more than an evolving feeling/emotion/whatever.
An evolving love for any other reason is an empty love. A love that preserves life maybe but empty of the beauty the belief in it being something more offers.

This love you preach, to those who preach it, I say.......keep it alive. It is a beautiful story and one I miss.

There is not much else for me to say here and in fact it is time for me to be silent. It doesn't matter what we believe about love, it is just important that we do believe in it. Life is empty otherwise and doesn't care and could end tomorrow without a concern in the world. Our beliefs about love are all we have..........cherish them.

Blessings.....James
Our beliefs about love are all we have...I like that, WS.
I think your post here helps me get a better focus on what / how you believe what you believe, James. I'm glad I got up this morning to read this. Seriously~*
:hug3:

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Hi James: This 'Love' i experience and know may sound odd but it is quite amazing.. it is an amazing resonance of cosmic energy, a resonance that each of us feels when we 'relax' and let Life reveal itself to us.. yes, this resonance is Life, touching and shifting the frequencies of our existence, manifesting harmony and a symphony of collective energies that fills the Universe with the Song of Life.. as we/us/Life make known that which was unknown, the Symphony is improvised in real-time, written by individual instruments that we are.. Listen to Life, hear the Symphony we are writing.. tune the instruments to the frequencies of "harmony and understanding"..

Be well..

[Silver]

Insertion into the 'Comedy' folder would be an acceptable , non-accidental
way to add it to an ipod :wink: . Fred Right could mingle with Frank Zappa, in a state of paradoxically unconditional 'Dirty Love' :icon_eek: :wink:

...Now there's an idea.

(who's Laurie Anderson?)

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

...Now there's an idea.

(who's Laurie Anderson?)
:icon_eek: Lou Reed's wife , but she was 'Big Science' long before that.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/55/LaurieAnderson_BigScience.JPG/220px-LaurieAnderson_BigScience.JPG


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY7uTO_GuDg&feature=related

from when she had Adrian Belew (played w/ King Crimson, Frank Zappa , among others) on twangbox :smile:

and from Big Science
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedIexysvK4


and the crazy-brilliant 'Sharkey's Day '
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaBbHGKLp88&feature=related

:D

The most cryptically quotable person around, i.m.o.

"why ?... because I can see the future... and it's a place about 70 miles East of here, where it's lighter "

[Xan]

Feeling love, experiencing love for another, knowing love for no reason... this is precious... cherish love beyond belief.


Xan

[Silver]

I watched that first one, Dar and it blew me away.
Never seen or heard anything quite like that.
I can't say that if I heard it on the radio It'd have
the same impact, but man oh man. That was wow.

Now, gonna take my time and listen to the others you posted.

Ty~*

[Mr Interesting]

Adrian's one of my favourite mad boys with guitars.

Pity I don't listen to music anymore... just in passing.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

I watched that first one, Dar and it blew me away.
Never seen or heard anything quite like that.
I can't say that if I heard it on the radio It'd have
the same impact, but man oh man. That was wow.

Now, gonna take my time and listen to the others you posted.

Ty~*

Hi,
Glad you dig Laurie; she's a marvel . Best show ever. This one I just found ,
should blow you further away ; it did me .

The Beginning of Memory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RZpphITFM4&feature=related

see you there, away somewhere :wink:

[psychoslice]

Hi,
Glad you dig Laurie; she's a marvel . Best show ever. This one I just found ,
should blow you further away ; it did me .

The Beginning of Memory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RZpphITFM4&feature=related

see you there, away somewhere :wink:
Thanks Dar, i like this stuff also, I never heard it before.

[3dnow]

Silvergirl:
"In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded."

No no at the end there was an explosion then there was nothing. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGmAmJFUvzM

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Thanks Dar, i like this stuff also, I never heard it before.

Cool . Allow me to select a few more top picks :D

One White Whale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mXWGy25NGE&feature=related

Baby Doll (pretty funny one)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLNownvZSEA&feature=related

O Superman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VIqA3i2zQw&feature=related

Language Is A Virus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sQS6nkpPCQ&feature=related

[Silver]

Silvergirl:
"In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded."

No no at the end there was an explosion then there was nothing. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGmAmJFUvzM (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatc h%3Fv%3DaGmAmJFUvzM)

Haha! Now there's a blast from the past. Just fantastic song, yeah.

{Although my take on it is there's never an absolute end as long as the next comedian is waiting in the wings. Strange but true, I say.}
:wink: